The O Files: Robyn Graves

Before Grindr.

Before curated identities.

Before “community” lived in a group chat.

There was The Odyssey.

In this edition of The O-Files, Peter sits down with drag icon Robin Graves to revisit Davie Street in its heyday — when queer spaces weren’t optional, they were survival.

They talk about:

• The Odyssey as a “third place” — not just a bar, but a lifeline
• Cruising before apps and connection before algorithms
• The unspoken rule that drag queens didn’t date (and why that changed)
• The generational shift — why older gays feel the need to be around other gay men, and why younger people might not
• And why preserving queer micro-history matters more than we think

Because if we don’t tell the stories of the back rooms, the dance floors, and the queens who built it — they disappear.

And when our spaces vanish, something in us goes with them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hi everyone, welcome back to Superficial Spirit. My name is Peter Brees. Thank you for being here today. Very excited, we have another episode of the O Files, where we are opening the doors to the Odyssey once again, honey. Not to relive it, although I don't mind, you know, taking a trip down memory lane, reliving my glory days a bit. It's okay to do a little bit of that every once in a while, but I really want to remember it properly because the Odyssey wasn't just a nightclub. It wasn't just a place you got drunk and made questionable decisions, although we absolutely did that. It was what sociologists call a third place. And my guest today brought that up and it really hit home. So you had home, you had work, and then you had that third space. And for a lot of us, that was the Odyssey. So for queer people, especially in the 90s, that third place wasn't optional. It was definitely a place that we needed. It was where we found our people, it was where we learned how to be gay in public. And even before we could be gay in public, it was where we learned to get comfortable in our own skin and experiment with our expression and our sexuality and sort of tiptoe outside of the maybe the boundaries we had created for ourselves so that we could feel safe in everyday life. That was what gay bars were in the 90s, especially coming out of the AIDS crisis. And I just turned 40. So when I was going into the gay bars in 2003, is when I turned 18, it was definitely more accepted. Um, that was when Will and Grace was on TV, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, the first season was out. So the flamboyant gay men was definitely starting to become more celebrated. But if you go back 10 years when I was a teenager, um, definitely felt the homophobic tension in high school. And I can only imagine what it was like for guys 10, 15, 20 years older older than me. So we definitely needed that third space, and the Odyssey was that for a lot of people. So we flirted, we fought, we fell in love, we got our hearts broken, and then we did it all again the very next weekend, every Thursday for shower power baby. So listening back to this episode, something really struck me. My guest is Robin Graves, and she spoke about how important it is still for her to be around other gay men. Not sometimes, not accidentally, but intentionally. And it got me thinking because a lot of younger queer people today that need might not be the same. Maybe they don't feel like they need to carve out those spaces and go to a quote unquote gay bar because maybe they have found acceptance earlier on. They're not facing the same anxieties about being open and queer. But I think if you're over 25, maybe over 30, maybe over 35, you can sense um the transition between needing to go to a gay bar to have fun and then younger people just sort of going out and having fun, and wherever they are, they feel safe. Um, so they also have the apps, and I've spoken about that in previous episodes, like sort of the emergence of grinder and other hookup apps. That is where they're finding their community. So they're finding it in different forms. They don't necessarily need a physical gay village the way we did. Very interesting. Definitely a generational divide. I feel like I'm in between both. Um, I would say I felt more disconnected from my community when I got into a long-term relationship and I started stopped partying all the time because I wasn't as obsessed with being popular. I was slowing down on like the drinking and the drugs. So I wasn't going out to have that experience. And I didn't need to go to the gay bar to find myself. Although throughout my 20s, I definitely did. Like if I didn't have nightlife, I would not be the person I it was everything. Nightlife was like the most important thing, the most informative years of my life, 100%. Despite the excessive and self-destructive behavior, I would do it all again, over and over and over again. I just, I love it so much. I can't say enough positive things, but it's different for people today. So I understand both sides. Um, it is nice to go to the junction and be around a bunch of gay guys. It just is. Um, but for those of us who did come up in that pre-app world, being physically around each other was the culture back then. It was the connection, it was the glue. So this episode is more um is more than just nostalgia. It's about stewardship. Queer history isn't just pride parades and court rulings, it's a micro history. It's Davy Street on a Wednesday, it's the smell of bleach and spilled vodka, honey. It's the queens who ruled the stage and the bartenders who knew your drink before you ordered it. If we don't tell those stories, they disappear. And when our spaces turn into condos, memory is the only thing left. So today I'm sitting down with the amazing Robin Graves, Dry Queen, Odyssey Regular, and a living archive of a generation that built something really, really meaningful on Davy Street. So welcome back to the O Files. Let's take a dive in. Hi everybody, welcome back to the superficial spirit and another edition of the O Files. We are bringing an iconic club back to life, not through nostalgia, well, a little bit of nostalgia, but through the people who made it what it was. And my guest today, Robin Graves, Drag Queen performer, and part of the heartbeat of a scene that shaped a generation, honey. We're talking about nights out that turned into legends and art and rebellion that lived on through dance floors and why those stories still matter now. Let the doors open. Hi, Robin.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Well, hello.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

I'm alright.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad you are gracing me with your presence. I know I've been uh prodding you for a while to come on the show, and and you finally said yes on this fine Saturday afternoon, not morning anymore.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

No, I've I've been up for a little while. I had been out last night for a couple aperitifs, shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Okay, okay. How was that?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Oh, it was it was it was fine. I actually was out with the lovely Carlotta girl last night. What? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

She made an appearance on the Davy strip, and yeah, that was good.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Listen, I talked to her recently, as you know, and she was like, oh no, don't go out anymore, girl. I'm always at home, girl. Apparently not.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Well, yeah. She had done a she had just finished a a private gig in Kitsalano, so she thought she'd meet up with me. Because usually on Fridays I tend to have some friends over. I live right on Burnaby Street, so I just look out my window right now and see the pump jack.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Oh. So Oh my god, dangerous. Dangerous. I don't know if I could uh handle the temptation. Where did you and Carlotta go last night? What did you get up to?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Oh, it was we just met her at the at PJ. She just rolled in there, honey, with her big long blonde hair on and did what she does best.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

I feel like I've never seen Carlotta in the pump jack.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah, no, we both of us in drag, we go there quite a bit. But uh yeah, she she doesn't really go to many of the the clubs. It's mostly private engagements and parties and stuff that she does. Yeah. Odin likely and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Oh, no, thank you. I I think I ran into you when I moved back at the pump jack very briefly. I was in and out. I was feeling, you know, up. I was high, basically. That's what I'm trying to say. And I was like, hi. We talked very briefly, but um, I hadn't seen you in a long time.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Well, usually when I'm there too, I'm usually like I've been pre-gaming basically for like three hours at my place. And by the time I get there, I just need one because I'm like people see me and go, girl, last night, honey.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Oh my god, the anxiety, the next day anxiety. Yeah. I um I remember when I first moved to Vancouver and I would walk by Pump Jack like middle of the day, and there was guys drinking, and I was like, oh my god, it's so weird that people go like during the day and drink. And now I'm like, this is an amazing thing that people do. Like, if you are at the pump jack and that's where your friends go, it's like kind of always open. And I understand it more now that you want to go in and be part of the community, but you don't need to be out until 3 a.m. Like, you know, with the twinks at numbers.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

No, no, absolutely not. And I mean, I mean, I I venture in there, like I said, I do my once-a-week appearance. That's usually for about an hour and a half on a Friday night. Like last night, I was like, I gotta get out of here. It was like 1:30. So I was home and in bed by 2, but I was still up this morning at like 8 30. And you know, I didn't want to be like uh ruined for this lovely experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yes, but I appreciate it. I mean, that's a good place to start. I mean, before we obviously we're gonna talk about the Odyssey. Um, yeah, but one thing that I'm always curious about is like how people like us were a part of nightlife, how you stay connected but stay balanced in a way. Like it was such a big part of my life, but man, it took me a long time not to just have one drink and go on a bender. So I've been like learning how to do that. How have you found that transition?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Um, I uh well, I think it's just you know, nature, right? As you get older, like I'm gonna be 55 this year. This summer. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

She looks good.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

So thank you. Thanks. Um but like you may like you may feel good and everything, but then again, I heard I heard an expression where it says, you know, after 50, your body starts to keep the receipts, right? So it's like, oh, you can't just go out and and behave like I mean, I imagine how if I was still doing that at this age, going out six, seven, eight nights in a row, right? Like I used to do it in my twenties. No. I'm home now. I'm quite content with my own company. I like I do video games, I read books. I go to bed at eight o'clock at night. Nice. Eight o'clock, girl. I'm in bed. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah. I'm like I messaged you this morning at like 7:30. I had already been awake for a while. I I also go to bed early. I didn't realize I was a morning person until I stopped partying, and I was like, oh my god, I'm such like a yeah, morning time, but partying every night basically, you don't get to enjoy Sunday morning ever.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

We were morning people then too, honey. I mean, we just went to bed in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

We saw the morning, definitely, just through different eyes.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, I I I enjoy that too. I enjoy the the quietness, like at 5 30 in the morning, like especially downtown, it's for once it's quiet, right? And I just like have my coffee, you know, watch that sun come up.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

That's so nice. Hey, not today. I know, I know. It's pretty shitty. It was a nice week, but yeah, the rain is back. Um, so Odyssey. When when I say, like what when you know you're coming in to talk about this today, what comes to mind when somebody brings up the Odyssey?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Tom Foolery. Yeah. Um just I don't know. I would say carefreeness, abandonment, like just I moved here in this month, marks 30 years that I that I moved to. Yeah. So I moved here in '96. So I came here about three years after Carl did. And prior to moving here, um, I had moved from uh Thunder Bay, Ontario. That's where I hailed from. Wow. And I had access to Extra West. Remember that used to be a newspaper.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Oh, I remember because I was on the cover, honey.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah, so I would I had access to those and I would see ads for you know the Odyssey. I'd see pictures of Joan XD, you know, and I'm like, this is the bar that I'm gonna go to and I'm gonna, you know, throw on my best little Susie Shear crushed velvet dress, honey, and I'm gonna city. Like, I imagine the gumption to have at that age, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Like how old were you if I 96?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I was 24. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah. It's just weird to think that now we're all so connected, but like, first of all, extra west has come up in a lot of my conversations when I'm talking to like people in the community as a light to Vancouver because they're in their small city and they they see something. And we lived, I when I first saw Extra West, I mean maybe it was in Calgary when I was growing up, but I only remember it in Vancouver. So to be in Thunder Bay or like Carlotta didn't have it, but some of the other guys who were like sprinkled throughout, it really did show you like what Vancouver was. And obviously, I relate to being 24 and you know, I can do anything. And also you seeing Joni, because I I pair like you, Carlotta Joan, that whole drag era is all one in my mind. So it's it's interesting to hear you say you saw it, and then you like became a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, it it's it's so weird, and and what I find still to this date, even though Joni and myself have been friends for like is that almost 30 years, uh the dynamics are still the same between me and like I feel between me and her. I still feel like the young, quiet kind of, you know, and that I'm in the presence of you know what I mean? Like when I'm around her, I s it's like when you go home to see your parents. You feel like you're 15, right? You get treated. Not that she treats me like that, but I it's just that odd feeling, like that dynamic. And and that's how I still feel to this date. I feel like one of the the new girls when Joni and them.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I mean, I think that's good. I feel Joni is one of those people in the community. Probably everybody feels like that around. She was obviously a pillar to you, obviously for me and my friends. So there would have to be even older people than Joni who would be like, Joan looks up to, but I might not know who those queens are, actually. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

And you know, the some of them are still around, and and then some unfortunately, you know, have have left us, and you know, that's just how how life works. But yeah, it's I I I feel a little bummed out because as you know, she's she's leaving Vancouver.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

What?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Um yes, did she post that?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Um had some stuff posted for a little bit on Facebook. I don't know how much you're on Facebook. But yeah. Oh my god, moving to Edinburgh. What the fuck? She, you know, she went off last summer, if you recall, for a few months, you know, to Europe, and she just fell in love over there and fell in love with a person or the place. No, no, no, fell in love with being in that hole. And it's like, yeah, she's our my age just uprooting and and doing something crazy. I say, good for her.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you feel like this, but I just turned 40. Um, I actually feel like 40 was easier than 30. But one thing for me, like, I wanted to release a new song, which I did, but you have to like mentally juggle with like, okay, I'm not relevant, I'm too old. Where am I gonna go? Nobody cares. All of that stuff. And if I didn't release a song, it would have been so bad for my confidence, for my creativity. Once I cross that line, I'm like, I don't fucking care. Like, I'm gonna be Madonna 80 releasing songs that one person listens to. That's fine, baby Hetty. But for Joan to do that, I I get it. I don't know if I personally would, but who knows? Like, life calls, you gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, absolutely. So I I I cheer her on. I'm her biggest cheerleader, so I wish her all the best.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

She still needs to come on the show. I keep asking her. Maybe that's why she's like, I got a lot going on. I'm gonna keep sending her the um episodes. So you're in Thunder Bay, you're seeing Extra West, you're hearing all about this club. Do you remember the first time you went to the Odyssey?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Absolutely 100%. 100%. I moved here with my partner at the time. We were living with his brother's family in Guildford, and we had to drive into the city, and I had we had made some friends locally, like in the West End, enough that I was able to get done up into drag and then and go to the Odyssey. And it was a Sunday night. I remember going into those front doors, having to, you know, pay your cover or whatever, which I think was probably the last time, the first and last time I ever paid cover at the Odyssey. Uh I was just I was wearing this brown bob with a headband.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

I mean, you liked your headbands.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Didn't you have like exactly I did I was in I had this really odd, I really liked kitschy 60s, yeah. I liked Dogo Boots and Beehives, and I did numbers by like Karen Carpenter and Let like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

That's how I remember you. Yeah, 60s, totally.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

So I walk into the uh Odyssey and they're on the stage is Joan Justine and Diana Rose, of course. They're in uh like these like military suit jazz. I think they're doing like some sort of Andrews type number. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna be on that stage. And I I was terrified, like, you know, you're so nervous because you're seeing these people newspapers and they're like right there in front. It was a trip, like you.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

I'm surprised that you went like you were arrived in Vancouver in as like you went to the Odyssey in drag, like Robin was already a thing. Because Carlotta was like not yet, she claims, um, doing the full drag thing yet. But you you knew I'm a drag queen, I want to perform. That was already fully formed.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, so I had been doing drag, if you can imagine, in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Shores of Lake Superior in 1992, 93. So you can imagine like me in like some little tiny dress and like Sorrel snow boots climbing over snowbank to get into the club that me and my two friends who uh performed with. Also, uh, sidebar, we have a mutual friend, um Michael Court.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Oh, Miss Michael of girly. So Okay, I know I know I know that Michael is from Thunder Bay. Yes, and I know that's where he had his club kid era, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah, we he went, he went by Hot Girl.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Right, and he he wore diapers to the club. That was one of his looks, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Oh, maybe. Maybe under his outfit.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Oh, he's gonna like this episode. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

In our people, and and yeah, we used to have a good time in Thunder Bay, but yeah, so I had already been doing drag, and I just, you know, I thought I was the the hottest shit in town, right? And I'm gonna move to Vancouver and I'm just gonna it was a little different, you know, when I got here.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Well, what happened? So you go to the Odyssey and you you see the show. Did you go up to them after and say, Hi, I'm Robin?

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Um, you know, I didn't really talk to them at the time. I I was also, I think, after my first venture into the Odyssey, I also Started uh hanging out at celebrities quite a bit. And Willie Taylor had a show there. And I was ballsy. He worked the door on the nights that he wasn't doing show. Oh my god. Drag, and I went up to him and I was like, you know, Willie, I I'd love to, you know, do a number in your show. And Willie was like, uh, guess what? Uh come on down and do a show, and uh I ain't gonna pay you, but uh you can do a number in the show. If I like you, I'll invite you back. So I started doing a lot of drag at celebrities. Two big rivals, right? And then if I can remember correctly, I think I kind of just got poached away from celebrities to come and do um their new Wednesday night show. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Which spoke about. Yes, yes, I want to know that to you. Oh, this is weird. By the time I moved to um Vancouver, celebrities had no drag shows. So that's 2006. All the drag. I mean, there was drag at celebrities sometimes, but there was no maybe drag bingo, that's it. But the Odyssey was the drag shows.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

That was down at that point, right? Like it's just it was crazy that like like um Carlotta probably mentioned, like, there was something going on every night in the city at at a different venue. So I mean, like you speaking about celebrities and and not having drag shows, I remember I used to be a regular um at Michael Venus's party, Planet Fag. Good name. I know.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Oh my god, I have never heard that shows, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

You would get up on one of the platforms of GoGo Booth, and you do a number, and they would just walk around in hosts and look gorgeous as they always do, right? And uh yeah, but so that's when I I I think it was like '98, I won they had their first Miss Odyssey contest. And I I won it.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Oh my god. Tell me about that. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Um well, I really wanted to win it because 500 bucks girl back then.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Oh, that's like a million dollars, baby. That was rent. Yeah, probably not anymore.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah, but uh, I remember I was I made it to the finals. They they milked it and had it over a course of a couple of weeks or something, right? And it came down to me and two um tea girls. Um if I can remember their name. I remember was they were both gorgeous. Like I love Dominique, I think was one of the girls, and ISIS was the other girl. I don't that's neither here nor there. It was just it was a really heated competition, and we had swimwear. That was like, oh my god, I'm gonna lose in swimwear and two T girls, right? And I came out in, you know, the the most preposterous, like I came out with a huge like fishing net on me with seaweed on it, and like it was just preposterous, right? And I remember Joni pulling me aside because we were friends by that time. She's like, listen, bitch, if you want to win this competition, you're gonna have to get out there, and I think she said, moon the crowd.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

What I know, and I was up there on that stage that where the people would dance.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, right. I think I yeah, I got up there and I just dropped trowel right in front of the entire Odyssey audience.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

It was and then I won. So were you performing when you dropped trow and mood the crowd?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

I think I was doing maybe some Sunday spots by then. Okay. Yeah. Wow. I'm not sure though, Peter, 100% if that coincided along with what was going on Wednesdays at the Odyssey when I was with Willie and Justine, but I don't think so. I don't think they would have had a a current cast member competing for the title of it's a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I mean, even now Tommy does Vancouver's Next Drag Superstar. It's it's it's a huge, it's such a um fast way to even if you're already kind of known in the scene to like get that seal of approval, like not only am I already performing, but like I'm good or I'm the best in this competition.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, I mean, for years, like the Odyssey was just like my second home. Like our our third place, as they like to use that expression. Like I was pretty much five or six nights a week I was at that place.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

And were you saying like, wait, first of all, what's our third place? What's that? I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

It's just like you know, you have your work, yeah, your work, your home, and then a third place is just that place where you go and you convene to be with other people. This is so for example, in the mall, right? That was people's third place. You could go with your friends and hang out with that's what the Odyssey was for us. I um really was a family.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

I want to hear more about that because something I have a hard time articulating to random people. Like, I'm at a party and somebody's talking about their crazy 20s, and it's like, what's the craziest bar you've ever been to? And I'm like, first of all, we we don't have the time to talk about all my crazy parties, honey. But I try and like talk about the Odyssey, and it's it's what you just said, it's that third place. It's more than a bar for sure, which is why I'm doing these episodes. It has such an emotional impact on the people there. So, what did you do when you were there five, six nights a week? Why did you love it so much? Describe the feeling and and what kind of music you were hearing and the people you were with.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Well, first of all, there was that smell.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Oh, bleach.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

There sure, let's go with that. Um, but it was where all of my friends were and and doing drag, it's where that's where all your sisters were. And it was where we met people. Like again, like I it sounds like we're ancient, but I mean there was no grinder, there was no scruff, you know. And honestly, I'll like I'll be honest, I think I got laid more po pre-aps than I am, you know what I mean? Like, it's crazy. So how it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

So, what were you gonna say? It's crazy what?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

That that it has changed so much.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

So you might can be blamed on the the the invention of these goddamn these app they're a nice yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I don't disagree with you. Um with was the Odyssey cruisy then back then? Like, was it a place you would go to hook up?

unknown 29:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

So absolutely 100% it was. Like, that's you know, that's people would lurk around. Do you remember the the layout? There was the back patio, right? And then there was that walkway.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

And people would lurk around in that area and lean up against that, you know, inside the bar. That was more like the cruisey area. And there wasn't a whole lot of places to be cruisy because it was such a small space and so much of it was dedicated to the dance floor. But I mean, Joan used to laugh at us because back then, like, if you were if you did drag, you were kind of like looked down on a lot by by the gays, right? And it was very hard to date because no one wanted to be a so like everyone wanted to like laugh and party and drink and have a good time with you and watch you on stage, but no one wanted to, you know, take you to bed or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I mean, I remember growing up and feeling that way about drag queens. They definitely weren't sexualized, and then drag race came along, and there were like young, hot boys, and you saw them out of drag and in drag. And I think people were able to like separate it a little bit more, but I remember very clearly when drag queens like it became more acceptable, I guess is the word to like date or even like openly be like, I want to fuck that drag queen. It wasn't like that when I was growing up, but it did change at some point.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

I we can attribute that I'm most most definitely to RuPaul's drag race, right? Because of that whole reality TV celebrity type thing, right? So but I mean, we would I I know I did it, I wasn't the only one to do it. We would do our show at the Odyssey, and we would always bring our boy clothes with us because we'd go upstairs to the staff camp and we would get out of drag, right? Because we wanted to like go downstairs and be able to maybe pull at the end of the night. And Joni would laugh at us because she'd be like, girl, you ain't fooling anyone with all that eyeliner smeared under your eye. You know what I mean? That fresh. We were it, and it was like, no, no, girl, you're not.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

So go home. The back patio is where the drug dealers would stand. Like that's where you're talking about, right? Like that back corner near the ATM, kind of. I've never done a drug in my life, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Um, yeah, there was that little walkway inside.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah, inside. So would people hook up in that area or just find the guy and then go somewhere?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, they would definitely find him and then nothing. I never really in all my years there saw anything going on wise or anything. Maybe a little uh rendezvous in a small, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I'm thinking. It was like cruising culture, I feel like was not okay. There's two things.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

It wasn't that place, let's just put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Okay. I like even the club in general, I don't remember that being a part of it. Probably Pump Jack more. I feel like that's coming back now. I don't know if you've noticed it, but a lot of the children, honey, they're they're throwing these big dance slash sex parties. It's like it's so embedded. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Good, I say. And we do these events at Pumpjack now where they cordon off the back area, right? Where you know they have leather nights or nude nights, or and I'm like, how about it?

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Totally. I'm I'm too prude, prudish for that, but you know, you tell me about it after, honey.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Um, nope.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

I'm not gonna be walking. Um, what so you're we're talking about the late 90s, which is like Spice Girls, Brittany, but also like whole Nirvana. Um when you would like go out dancing, what what was the music like? Like what are the songs that come to mind back then?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Um well, we had DJ Jules, who was like the main the heart of the Odyssey. And I would remember God. I remember after every feather boa show, at least in the early, you know, when I was there in the 90s, the big song that he would play to open the floor up was a um Beautiful Life by Ace of Bass.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Oh, good song.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah, so that one was always um pumping. But I mean, you know, there was you know, ultranate, uh-huh, you know, Crystal Water.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Oh, Crystal Waters, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

All of it. It was just all of it was just so good. Yeah. Like uh we just didn't know what we had back then, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Like, no, I mean now I now I'm old enough that it's like Y2K is a like to me when I was 18, we would like wear leg warmers and be like, oh, the 80s, like we're we're making them cool again. And then now, like the you know, people who are 20, they're like, oh 90s, like Avril Levine, like that look is to them like cool and niche again. And I'm like, I was wearing that in high school, bitch. So I know it's it's it's scary to hear people whose date of birth is like 2000. 2000. Oh, yeah. I just interviewed some of the kids from um Canada Shore, and it was like, yeah, it was pretty hard. Um whoo! Not a lot going on upstairs for those folks.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

I uh you know, I don't know what we can attribute that to. It's this with all this technology we have, and with you know, a phone in our pocket that's basically a supercomputer, I just find people are just getting dumber and dumber. Like, no curiosity, no, I don't know what it is. It's just bizarre.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

But it's um maybe too much access to information and you're not like out. Like I I had to we had to go to the bar and like learn about ourselves. Hookup. So you mentioned that you would hook up more before apps, and I think it's because you're out and you're meeting people, and it's less about like trying to pick the perfect picture and more about a vibe. So I don't know. Do you feel like back then it's less about a type of guy and more about you're out and you meet someone and you got the vibe versus like I want to fuck a twink, I want to fuck a bear, I want to fuck a whatever?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Just whoever happened to tickle your fancy that day, or and you know, and then there was like I said, there was plenty of places to go. Like I said, Odyssey, not necessarily very cruzy. You know, where was cruisy though back then? Down at the old beach, honey. Like the actual beach, yes. So, you know, the old what is it, the aqua um Aqua Center swimming.

unknown 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Oh, wait, right by English Bay?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah, all of no, not English Bay, Sunset Beach.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Oh, that thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Burrard Street Bridge.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

You would go there after the bars closed. Because the bars closed back then the bars closed at one, I believe, as on a Sunday, and I think two during the during the week. And you would go down there after the the bars closed, and it would just be teeming with guys, just all around. Like, it was insane, Peter.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

That's like the movies of gay culture, like cruising under a bridge. Like I know people still cruise now. We got sniffies and people are going to like the bathrooms and stuff. But back then, um, late 90s, early 2000s, what was it like to be a gay man and a drag queen in Vancouver?

SPEAKER_01 37:19

I mean, it was fine. I mean, like I said, I mean when I was out being mean, like just as Kevin, I would not try and bring up the fact that I did drag, you know, when I would meet someone that was like something that not it was a secret, right? And that's just how it had to be.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah. Was it like gay people too, or just straight people you wouldn't tell them? Or anyone?

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Oh, just gay people. I didn't care about straight people because I wasn't trying to sleep with straight people. Like you need to be quiet, like, because nobody was down with that back then.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

So what would happen if you met somebody and then they saw you out? Like you had hooked up with them and then you were in face.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Uh, they would likely not recognize you. Honestly, like they wouldn't recognize you. My painting skills were that she's an illusionist. Uh I'm delusional. Relatable. But yeah. You had it had to be all very covert, like Yeah. But uh people still know me now, though, like as as Robin. Like that's not gonna go like the younger people have no clue, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Because I'm not really. I was gonna ask, do you what what gets you into drag these days to do a show? Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I think the last uh honestly was uh uh a collaboration at The Commodore for the Coronation, and that was I think that'll be three years ago this March. So that was the last time I was in it. I don't have makeup anymore. I don't have well, I do have some clothes and stuff, but that's all all in the basement and storage. Like there's nothing I it's weird, it was such a huge part of my life for so long. Like I lived, breathed, and ate drag, right? Like, and now I'm like wow, it's like it didn't even weird.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Did that happen naturally or did was there like a switch one day?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

I think it just evolved naturally. The less I did it, the less keen I was to do it. Don't get me wrong, like I if anyone had could look into my windows, I'm on the 18th floor, no one can really see in. You could still you can catch me prancing around thinking because I I honestly I love being on stage. I love performing and I love making people laugh. I love being the center of attention. But like I would walk into a room with Carlotta and or you know, and they the they would just have this presence, this energy, and I would just kind of be like I'd kind of quietly be in the background. I don't know, I just never liked to to I would rather blend in than stand out. But on stage, completely different. I I don't know, I can't explain.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

I I yeah, I didn't know that about you. I I've heard other performers say that. Um I'm shy, but I can pretend I'm not mostly at a bar for sure. Like around yeah, it's a role. You can yeah, you step into it. Um definitely like things I would do on stage. Yeah, you're like stepping into it. Drag is so different too, though. But like when you're in drag and you come into a space, yeah, it's um I can imagine people are looking at you and you're like, I'm shy even though I'm dressed up, I don't want to do it, but you're by default bringing attention to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Right. But it it was also it's a mask, right? You might as well just be wearing a mask. Yeah, no one can recognize, no one can associate this with you. I've often thought, like, when you you just ask about what gets you out to do drag or whatever. Honestly, I think to myself, if I were to get into drag, I don't know if I could just walk out of my apartment down the street, right? Because that's how I would just walk to my gigs, right? I would do that all the time in full drag, not think anything of it. I don't know if I could do that now.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Why? Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 41:41

I don't know if I I would feel so I don't know if I would just feel self-conscious or or self-aware, like and also the you know the the vibe now around drag queens and and it's just it's not going in a direction that we would think it should be going, right? So it's different. I it's weird to say that that I felt safer walking the streets in the West End in the Davy village in the 90s than I would now.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Wow. Wow. Yeah, tell me more about that. Like, what have you noticed? What are the differences?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

It's just I don't know. It's like the neighborhood isn't as and I again we can attribute this to to to the lack of spaces. It was very gay in the 90s, the neighborhood. Like it there was just more gay people that lived, and I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think we're kind of clinging to that still, right? The gay neighborhood, but I don't know. Like, I live in a building, you might know that that was notoriously known as the stack of fags. It's this big high-rise. Yeah. I don't think there's that many gay people in this building anymore. As much I would say 70% of the people that used to live in this building were LGBTQ. And it's not that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah, this is interesting. This is um it's the Odyssey kind of brings up this passing of time and like for me, nostalgia. Like I always go back to that in my mind, but I never thought about the village in that way. But recently, like when I have gone out, I find myself thinking when I'm walking through the neighborhood, did that young straight couple know that they were moving to the West End and that it was the gay village? Is that even a thing anymore? Because you're right. When I lived there, so let's see, 2008 to 2011, it was very, very gay. Every once in a while, there'd be like a straight guy, and you're like, Whoa, what are you doing here? Like, this is so crazy. But I guess. When you're talking, I'm thinking a few things like do we need the village like we did back then? Or are young gays like, I don't I don't need to be around gays? Like, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 44:16

I I don't know if it's just my mindset because of when I came up in the early 90s. Like, um I know there's some some that is like, oh, you know, we like to be uh inclusive and we want to be, you know, I want to be able to we should be able to just go into any bar and be ourselves. And but it's like I on the other hand, yeah, okay, that's that sounds that's a lovely idea in theory. But you know what? I don't I don't want to be out in a space that's mixed. I want to just be around other gay men. I don't know. I mean not all the time, certainly. But I mean we need to have our spaces just as and I guess that's gotten a lot of pushback over the year, you know, because you know, they say, you know, we're diversity. Well, I don't have any concerns as far as as that goes. I mean, I can see how that and I I I um I'm not a fan of that either, because it's like oh god, yeah, these people off all look the same, all fucking you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Y'all hide I just I I think it is important to have these spaces and these communities. Yeah, I really do. More than ever. I don't want to have us all displaced and dispersed all among you know what I mean? I like that cohesiveness.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

I um I I I get it. When I I didn't realize how important that was until I left Vancouver, actually. We went to Kelowna, we went to Toronto, and then when I came back, just being in the city and you know, people like you who I didn't really talk to that often knew seeing those familiar faces on Davies Street and just feeling like I was part of something because I spent my 20s here was so important for my self-discovery and the way that I became like a full-grown adult. And I agree with you that there was a shift where when I was partying in my 20s, gay, white, twinks, we were like, honey, we we were, it was all for us. Like everything, the it was very much catered to our experience, and I loved it, obviously. And then we went to a place where there's a lot of pushback with like white gay men because even though we were part of the gay community, we were, we were still like, I guess our our voice and our experiences were like not as important for whatever reason. And because of that, we we lost in a way that pride or like the confidence to be like, I just want to be around gay guys. Like that shouldn't be that shouldn't be an issue. But I have heard this from lots of my friends privately, maybe not on social media, but there's a reason why people gravitate towards people that are like them. It's we have a shared experience, we have sex the same way, we love pop girls the same way, we do the same drugs, we understand cruising cult. There's so much that goes into why gay men can just vibe. But yeah, once you break that and younger people don't know or don't think they need it, it's hard because you end up being the older generation who's like, no, you need to like, it's important, it's important. And it's like they're they're not there, they're somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, and it's it's weird for people my age because we're that generation, because you know, AIDS in the late 80s or early 80s decimated an entire generation of people that never aged out, right? So now we're that young group after are now, right? So there's more, there's a lot more older gay men than there were, say.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Oh my god, true.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Thousands.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

That is so true. I mean, we talked, I talked a little bit about this to Carlotta, but now when I'm thinking about back then going to bars, there wasn't old people. Like 50 was old, right? Like that was there was nobody. Sorry, girl.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

No, you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

You know what I mean? It's like there is that generational gap. So there was nobody like you need to, this is important. Any other culture in the world, you have your elders that are like telling you, this is why we do things, this is why we do the go to the places we do, say the things we do. These are our rituals. That's why the pump jack is our ritual. That's why we all go there on Sundays. We go see our people, we're not even necessarily there to get fucked up, but like you need a space. Odyssey was that for so many of us, even for me when I was in my early 20s. Um, I I was, yeah, I don't know. I don't know, like that third space thing is still sticking with me because it resonates a lot that we would just go there for uh a plethora of reasons besides getting fucked up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah. I wouldn't even go there necessarily to get drunk and it's just to be around my friends and to see my friends. And if I didn't go, I felt like I was missing out. Yeah. Right? Um but yeah. It's just weird how like I I I often think back to the obviously, like, city was much smaller back then. Ergo, we had a much smaller gay community, right? But yet we had so many choices and venues to go to, and now we're down to four.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

I was so surprised when Carlotta listed all of those places that she would go to. I'm like, holy fuck, there were so there, there were so many that I had never heard of.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

They weren't and they weren't limited to to Davy Street. This was Yale Town and like heading down towards you know, Seymour and that whole area. Like it was a hoot in the the night, and the fact that I was able to be around and to go to the Odyssey in its heyday, um is is awesome. I just I I I it's funny because it's like for as much as we loved going to the Odyssey, we spent so much time in that background. Like, I think of it as you know the the dungeon basement at Studio 54 where you know Lion and Andy Warhol would be, like it would be just this dingy, horrible, and that was us in the back behind a curtain, and that's where it all happened, and everyone would want to come back there, but and we were like it was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

It was it was truly like VIP, but not the um pretentious kind, like flashy because those places where the VIP people were were not like glamorous, they were just behind a curtain or behind the door or like downstairs. Yeah, it was dirty, it was nasty.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

VIP because of the people that were in that space.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah, it was do you think one thing that I hear between the lines when I'm talking to people about this is there's a there after the Odyssey closed, there was a gap, a hole, and a uh a missing piece that maybe didn't people didn't really find a new home after that. Like you think about the going, the third, the third space, the third place. Do you feel like you found another place, you and your friends?

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Um, I mean, for me, it is basically the pump jack, right? Like that's or the junction. I mean, that place took off really once Odyssey. It took a little while because I remember I I was hired to DJ there junction. So I was there on Friday nights when it was honey, you could throw a bowling ball through that room. And then sure enough, as as the weeks and the months progressed, more and more people started coming, and and then it it that started to become the place that everyone went to. And and then that's when the pump jack expanded, and that's when it really took off. They I was shocked because it was like, oh, because it used to be that place you would go to where it was like dangerous, you know, it had the underwear pulled up on the ceiling. Like, what it's always like these strange men there, like and it what and then it was like, wait a minute, they got a DJ in the floor.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

I know, and I could not believe it.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah, this is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Yeah. So have you been to Junction recently? Like, what's going on there now? Is it fun? What's the crowd like?

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Well, yeah, so I've gone and I've seen a couple of shows, sometimes on a Thursday or a Friday. I've seen I know Hazel uh has a show. And you know, it's it's just it ain't the it ain't the Odyssey crowds, right? Or even the junction crowds of pre-pandemic, right? Like when let's say when Carlotta hosted her show there on Saturdays, like that place was jam fucking packed. And I used to DJ her her shows. Um it would just be packed, and then you go on a on a Thursday and it's like, well, there's everyone is sitting, there's all the tables are full. Cool. But there's no one like that.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Yeah, they're not moving, they're just sitting there, and they're not really drinking anymore, so they're just like they are definitely not drinking, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

But I mean girls are out there working that room, the whole space to get all the money.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

It's so different.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

People don't even want to go up to the stage and tip, they just stand there and put their in their hand and then they come to them.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

Yeah, yeah. It's um in some ways the queens do, I don't want to say they do more for less, but back then it was so exciting to see a drag show because you couldn't see it on TV. Like you had to go to the bar to see a really good drag show. So these people who are going to Junction now have probably watched a million episodes of Drag Race. They've been to drag brunch. So it's just like, you know, they're going to the grocery store and they're seeing things that maybe they've seen, maybe they haven't. But like somebody like Hazel, who's fresh off a season, who's flipping and doing her whatever, looking like a supermodel. But is she getting that like rock star experience that you could have had back in the early 2000s when a club full of people just freaked out because you were the dry queen doing the popular song at the time, you know?

SPEAKER_01 55:08

And you know what? And you know, we didn't have to be on a goddamn plane going to God knows how many cities that you've never been to to perform in bars you've never been at. And I don't know, I don't think I would even thank you for that. Like I'm just like, no, ma'am, that is just not my cup of tea. Like, but I mean for them for for hustling it as much as they do, and you know, it's not easy, but it's definitely uh 180 from from what what my experience was.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

So seeing um Jalen on Drag Race didn't make you feel like, oh, maybe I need to uh submit a tape and and put my hand, what is it, my name in the hat?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Throw my hat throw my hat in the ring. Something. Yeah, I mean her taste is so elevated. Well, my Amazon Essentials uh would not cut it on on drag race. Like I don't have the wherewithal, the the inclination or desire. Like these girls, I just it you know what? Good for they need to be traveling and getting these gigs because these outfits they're wearing, I can't it blows my mind. Yeah. And the other thing is they'll spend like maybe eight, maybe let's say eight thousand dollars on a look. Well, that's it. You're only gonna wear it the once because you can't unless it's in a number or something, but they're having all of these original one-of-the-kind outfits made to be worn once.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

I just think they got credit card debt, baby. That's all I'm gonna say. I don't, so um, okay, we need to talk about the little story Carlotta told about um replacing you in a show or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Right. Yeah, we were just we were having a laugh about it last night. But yeah, so what basically what she said is entirely true. So we were um flailing with um audiences because celebrities up the street had just revamped their Wednesday nights, and Simone was so she was packing it in there, right? So Odyssey, we were competing against that. And they knew they had to do something, and they knew that the show needs some sort of a restructure or reframing or whatever. They knew they sure as hell weren't gonna be able to get rid of Justine, they weren't gonna do that. They certainly weren't gonna get rid of Willie. So what was left? Bye, bitch. But but and like I said, to to her credit, she she gave me a call, and like when it all went down, and you know, I knew I had been relieved of my post, and and she called, and I was like, no, absolutely girl. Like, I mean I wasn't it didn't matter who was going in my spa. I was out, so it didn't matter to me. Like I wasn't gonna be put out or hurt by whoever took took my place. I mean, that was just a business decision. But you know, we we all looked out for each other as as mean and catty and vicious and you know, as we like to pretend that we were back then, you know, talking shit about we were all supportive and we wanted to see everyone succeed, and we would rally and support. That's what we did back then.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

So it was a community. You were sisters, yeah. Yeah, you were sisters for sure.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

What do you remember about the last night of the O?

SPEAKER_01 59:06

Um it was just it was frantic, it was hectic, it was just there was so much going on. I remember being in that closing number. I I was surprised, I didn't I wasn't as emotional as I thought I was going to be. Um but it was just a night that you know I'll always always remember. Everyone who meant anything to me was there that night, and and it was just I for me, I thought it was a bit ironic. My office where I worked is on Helmkin Street. Helmkin and Howe, that's where I used to work. So, girl, no sooner when that place closed down, I would have to walk down Davy Street and see those excavators tearing every day for at least a month.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

I was just like it's so sad.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Everyone else didn't hear it, right? So they didn't have to experience the trauma that I went through. So, and I walked there, my gym is still there. So I'm working out in the gym looking out the window at what used to be the front door of uh the Odyssey, right? Now it's condos.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

How often do you think about the Odyssey in your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

All the time. It's just always there, like it was so so formative.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Ugh.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

I just and I'm bad for for some of these the younger kids that they don't have that type of place.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

You'll never know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

And they don't want it. Maybe they don't want it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

You don't know what you don't have. Like it's yeah, I I I did meet somebody who was like 20, early 20s recently, and he was explaining grinder for the first time, and how uh I was talking about when I went to the bar for the first time in Calgary, 18, all of the older guys were like, you know, touching me everywhere. And it was like, I wanted to go to the gay bar to dance to Britney, but like I was not expecting the sexual side, which is kind of naive in retrospect. But he was saying that was him on Grinder, like you going on to meet people, but you know, you're you're suddenly, you know, the dick pics or like the fucking I want to fist you. I don't know, whatever. That was his like his version of that. And so when I was he also didn't know what a tabloid was, he did not know what a tabloid was. I was like, girl, um, so yeah, they don't know what they're missing out on because there's even though we have clubs, there is no need to physically go and meet people. So yeah, we can see what they're missing, but they are like yeah, well, they're they're missing out on social scale for one.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Like, I don't know. There's these these kids' faces are just in screens all the time, and the one-on-one interaction, God bless them. I don't know, like yeah, eye contact. It must be terrifying to go out to a bar. I I I I guess some of them are such anxiety, like I can't imagine how overwhelming it might be to go into a busy club and then not drink and then not drink.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

It's like, come on, girl. Yeah, I know. Um, I talked to somebody yesterday, we were talking about eye contact, and a lot of them that is it's too much because you even though you're talking to people on FaceTime or whatever, you're like face-to-face is like it's a lot. So I will see. I mean, they're in their 20s now, they'll be in positions of power soon enough. And I don't know, we'll see. You're in my prayers, not mine, bitch. I'm just praying for the Odyssey. Um, yeah, but you know what? Thank you for coming on the show, Robin. I'm so happy that you shared some of your stories and insight into how things have evolved. And I I by the way, I'm planning on doing a night out in the next few weeks. So I'll let you know, and maybe we can plan to intercept at the pump jack.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

Well, if it's a Friday for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

Yeah. You don't do Saturdays at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Well, here's the thing I need at least two full days. Yeah, I've got it. Even my thing is still a struggle. I got another Friday.