Bridging Relations Podcast
Hello and Welcome to the Bridging Relations Podcast. We're bringing you stories from the first and only Indigenous-led Living Lab in Canada.
This Living Lab is a collaboration of producers, scientists, and Indigenous land managers, working together to develop and test innovative solutions in real-world conditions to improve the environmental impact of current farming practices.
Here we're exploring diverse perspectives, stories, and experiences, to better understand one another and to enhance agricultural practices for healthy land, water, and sky that support all of our relations now and in the future.
Additionally, we delve into Indigenous-led regenerative agriculture and land management, sharing insights from Indigenous and non-Indigenous producers, consumers, scientists, land managers, community members, and youth on the prairies.
Thank you for joining us, we're so glad you're here!
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Bridging Relations Podcast
Resilient Roots: Reviving Indigenous Agriculture and Navigating Challenges | S1 Ep. 3
Roger Daniels delves into the complex history and challenges of farming on Mistawasis Nêhiyawak, highlighting barriers from colonial legacies and economic constraints. He emphasizes the importance of youth engagement and sustainable practices in reviving agricultural traditions to ensure a thriving future for the community. Mistawasis is making significant strides in sustainable farming and self-governance, with initiatives like seeding native grasses and introducing bison. Through heartfelt stories, we celebrate the community’s achievements and their vision for a sustainable future.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Brass. Here we dive into diverse perspectives on agriculture and land management, blending Western science and farmer expertise with Indigenous knowledge and wisdom. Together, we can address challenges and opportunities that enhance agricultural practices to support healthy land, water and sky for future generations. Thank you for joining us on this journey. On today's episode, we're going to discuss historical barriers and contemporary challenges related to farming on Mistawasis Nation. Roger Daniels is a member of Mistawasis. He's lived there for all but three years of his life. He started his career working in the band office and became lands manager in 1989. He's now the Treaty Land Entitlement Legacy Trust Coordinator and has been in his current role for the last eight years. Over the years, Roger has tried many different careers, but always comes back to lands, Hi, Roger. So tell me about yourself. What was it like living most of your life on Mistawasis?
Speaker 2:Thinking back on it at the time it was just, it was just life. I was very privileged. I didn't. I didn't realize how lucky I was to be living on Mr Wass's and the freedom that we had and just how beautiful a place it is. And I think because I took it for granted before when I was growing up, it kind of makes me feel stronger about it in my later years that I want people to understand what Mistawasis was and get it back to some semblance of the beauty that Mistawasis is.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. I love that cities Saskatoon and Regina but then I did live 10 years on reserve and can really relate to just the beauty, the stillness, just the different atmosphere of being on the land, absolutely. So, living on Mistawasis and we're talking about farming today does your family have a farming background?
Speaker 2:We do, yes, with my stepdad. We started out with, it seems like my mom always had chickens. Every spring she would get some chicks and then we'd look after them, then they'd go in the chicken coop and then we ended up so we had chickens and then we had geese, and then we had turkeys, and then we had a milk cow which turned into two milk cows, and then we had some hogs. I think we probably had maybe about six or eight hogs and then I believe I would have been around 12 years old or so my stepdad, through SIAP, saskatchewan Indian Agriculture Program, got a corral barns and I believe it was about 50 head of cattle and that's when we actually started our farm life, I guess. And so I grew up looking after all these animals.
Speaker 2:As I got older, my chores increased and then, as I was into my late teens, then I kind of took over for my stepdad and my mom and then we did that until probably about the mid-80s, mid to late 80s, and then slowly mainly because of economics but also because my mom and stepdad had other priorities we slowly got rid of the animals and then by the time I started working in the band office, which was roughly 1989 we no longer had animals. So we had a little we had a run of about, I don't know, maybe about 15 years or so, that we that that we were farmers. But did we also? We also did a little bit of cropping. We would seed barley for feed or oats for green feed.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. So I mean, would you say it was a fairly small operation for your family, or was it larger? What would be the size of the farming that you guys did?
Speaker 2:No, it was fairly small because we just had the one quarter section. At the maximum we had 80 animals. But it's something that I could look after the animals myself if needed. So I'd say medium size, medium size for mistlewosses at the time. Yeah, we're probably right in the middle.
Speaker 1:Okay, wonderful. One of the questions that often gets asked when we're talking about farming and First Nations and land use, land management, is this thought of why don't First Nations do more farming, farm their own land, farm on reserve? Can you address that a little bit? It's one of these common questions and have you heard it before?
Speaker 2:I hear it all all the time, absolutely and personal experience. Before my stepdad started selling the animals, I actually applied for some loans to start farming and a small operation. My stepdad at that time had three certificates of possession so that that was the only land that we would be able to work on and it wasn't big enough. And because there was no guarantees as far as agricultural leases with Mr Wass, as due to other band members either farming or controlling those, the land base just wasn't there to to justify myself starting up. And that's that's the era when, when the equipment wasn't that expensive.
Speaker 2:And so now, like it would be very daunting, now again like with they're no longer my, my stepdad certificates of possession, but they're, they're my, they're in my brother's name now. But even with three of those and trying to start up an operation individually, it's just very, very hard. And on reserve, because a lot of times with farmers, if they go to either farm credit or a bank for their operating loans, part of the security is the land that they own or that they're leasing On reserve. You can't mortgage or have any kind of a levy against reserve land. So basically the only assurance that the bank would have would be the crop that's coming off of it, and farming is very risky, and so I think banks are reluctant to proceed on reserve lands, simply because of the security.
Speaker 1:Right right Now, and Roger tell me a bit about a certificate of possessions. For those who aren't aware, what is that? What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Okay. So on non-reserves, when someone owns a property they hold it in fee simple. So as long as they're paying the taxes, then it's their property. There's no such thing as ownership on reserve. Title is held in His Majesty's name for the use and benefit of all members of Mr Wass's. However, under the Indian Act there was a section which made it possible to issue certificates of possession which are exclusive use for an individual band member and that exclusive use is one level down, I guess, from fee simple. It's the highest form of holding on reserve. It's basically the same as owning the property.
Speaker 2:If chief of council want to do some kind of a development or anything, they need permission from those CP holders to go onto their land. So I'm a band member, I don't have a certificate of possession, but if I wanted to go hunting, for example, the CP holder could deny me access. It hasn't happened but it could and because of that now any development that the band may want to do is hindered by the location of the certificates of possession. And Mr Walsh has the largest amount of certificates of possession in Saskatchewan. At the moment we have, I believe it's, 73, 74 certificates of possession. At the peak it was 93. And acre-wise that totals roughly 10,000 acres, and on Mistle-Wasses there's probably about 16,000 of cultivated acres. So a vast majority of cultivated acres are held by certificates of possession holders.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then, and correct me where I'm wrong, but so when you're looking at a First Nation and reserve lands, there would be a mix or a collection of both lands that are there for the collective use of the band membership and then the CP lands, which would be for the use of individuals or families that inherited those CP lands. So we'll get to the work and the involvement with the bridge. But you know we mentioned CP land. What are some of the other barriers that prevent First Nations, either collectively or individually, from farming operations?
Speaker 2:I believe the biggest one is the experience and the connection to the land. I was at an event recently where one of the speakers and I didn't realize it until he said it, but we have been at least two generations removed from farming so we don't have that experience anymore. We don't have the young people going to the College of Agriculture, we don't have them working with local farmers to get that experience. So for myself, for example, yes, I grew up on a farm, but the cropping part of it I don't have a lot of experience, in that my deceased uncle had a larger and he was mainly a cereal traditional agriculture. His two sons helped him, but that's all they did. They helped him. The decision-making was done by him and the marketing and the financing and that that was all done by him. And I don't know if it's unique to Mr Wass's, but even with my stepdad, when decisions needed to be made, he would make those decisions. He wouldn't consult, even though I was kind of his manager. He wouldn't consult with me. He would just go ahead and make those decisions.
Speaker 2:And then another barrier is ourselves, the collective band members, because when a band operation is going on it's almost like everybody needs their share. And if you don't understand farming, you need to understand that you have to put money back into the operation to keep it going. And that's kind of where some of the issues arise, because we have that now where we have an economic development arm and they're putting money back into developing businesses and we have band members saying, well, how come you're not helping the band, how come you're not giving money back. So I guess we call them shareholders and they want their share.
Speaker 2:And also it's daunting the amount of money it costs these days to farm, and you know we always look at it as well. We've got 16,000 acres in Mistawasis. How much money is that going to cost to get that into operation? Who's going to do it? Who's going to operate the tractors? Who's going to operate the combines? Who's going to be selling the grain? Who's going to be? There's so many things that we need to look at that it seems to be so daunting that it's kind of pushed to the side.
Speaker 2:Next year we'll look at it. Next year we'll look at it.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So just the sheer size of it and having the capital or the investment to make into it, and then the people right, having the right skills, and then the desire. Is that an issue as well, the desire to go into farming and agriculture as a career, or to learn more, or having family that has that knowledge to pass on? How big are those issues when you're looking at considering this as an option?
Speaker 2:And I actually talked with our lands committee chair almost about that issue, because we have a family on Mistawas that raises cattle. So the father has passed, so the mother and two of the kids have a herd of cattle then then the daughter has a herd of cattle, so they kind of manage them together and I don't know their daily routines. All I know is that the son has a full-time job and he has to do farming after his job is done so he has to go bailing. Yeah, if cows get out, he's got to go look after them. So I asked our chairman and he's related to that family how are the grandchildren involved in it? Because they're starting to get older. There's actually one granddaughter, I believe she's in grade 10 or 11. I asked do they contribute to the farm? And he said no, they don't, not on a daily basis In the spring when there's branding or when they're moving the cattle. The younger generation will be involved. But that's about the extent of it. The actual managing of the animals, the cutting of the hay, the baling of the hay, hauling all of that stuff, moving the animals, transporting the animals for sale, all of that is done by the son and the oldest daughter, and so I guess that's the only example that I have, and it's really hard to relate to a lifestyle that you don't know. You see that, and the biggest thing, I think, is we've gotten to be so impatient and wanting convenience, and it's tough, like when I talk to my grandchildren, my children. When they were getting older, I talked to them about when we farmed and plus 30, middle of July, going to the lake, I was heading out to the field to go cut hay or to bail Papa. Why would you do that? And it would be like because you have to. You needed to look after those animals, and I think that's the part that's missing is that, because you can always get somebody to do what you do I'm going to be gone for a while, so I need a fill-in. Okay, here we go, you do, I'm going to be gone for a while, so I need a fill-in. Okay, here we go, here we go.
Speaker 2:And with farming you can't. I worked for our local farmer. I drove combine, I drove all grain for him and then I became a dispatcher for him, and one of the biggest problems, especially during seeding, is that you want to get it done within a month and after about two weeks of every single day. Guys are praying for rain so that they can have a day off. They're getting pressured from their families. Come and do this, come and do that. Well, I can't. I have to work, and so there's that expectation of working Monday to Friday, having weekends off.
Speaker 2:You can't do that.
Speaker 2:You're putting in 16, 17, 18 hour days and you don't have room for anything else in your life except that, and it's really hard to get somebody used to doing that, and even though it's only for a month. But then you go into harvest, like this year I think harvest started around the middle of August, it just wrapped up a couple weeks ago and that you start later in the day, say 10 o'clock, but you can go until 3, 4 o'clock in the morning, and again you have to be ready to go. So I think that want is not there. It's hard enough when you have young people for a camp job oh my God, I was there for two weeks and that's nothing. And so I think we need a total change and I think we need the education first and then the experience. Like I mentioned the large farmer that I worked for, he's willing to help. We get somebody that goes through the College of Agriculture, he's willing to help them to learn how to become a farmer. So I guess that's a roundabout way of answering that.
Speaker 1:Right, there's many reasons for it, right, but just like even just describing the long hours, right and like, we see that, like you know, driving down the highway and at the harvest time of year, the combines right and the lights like after hours it's dark and it's all day to get it done and it's it's a real lifestyle and and different maybe from what a lot of people are used to absolutely Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So you know these are some of the contemporary issues. Roger, can you tell me a bit about any historical government policies or any historical issues that really led to barriers being created?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not sure about policies. I've never been a big reader of policies. I just understand how daily business affects us and the stories from my grandpa and my stepdad regarding after the treaties. Chief Mr Lawson was very understanding that our traditional way of life was gone and we had to change, and he thought that change was through farming. So the reserves were created and there was a barrier right there, because the reserve was created for the use and benefit of all band members. But when you talk about farming, it's for individuals, and so we had a number of smaller farms on reserve that were competing against each other for the limited resources in Mistawasis, for example, hay for cattle. So the time that my stepdad got his cattle, there was probably about seven or eight band members that got cattle at the same time. So we went from two or three families to 11 families with cattle. Where are we going to cut hay? Well, there's a slew over there. No, this guy cuts that already. Okay, here's one over here. No, this guy cuts that.
Speaker 2:So the resources were very limited and we're competing against each other for them, and so it started with individuals, and that's how the certificates of possession started Initially a band member is given a right of use and occupation and they got to use that land. If they improved it in two years, then they were issued a certificate of possession on that land. For some reason or another, a lot of those right of uses were not transferred to CP. So we actually could have had a lot more. So those individual band members that had one quarter section, they couldn't expand, so it was limited to just them, and you can only raise a certain size of family on a family farm if you only have one quarter section. And then also these farmers some of them started to get bigger. They were buying up some of the certificates of possession, their farms were getting bigger and then their lifestyle got better and then that induced jealousy from band members that well, if I had that land I could do that. And so those are. So just this is the way it was.
Speaker 2:For example, my grandpa. He ended up farming about 4,000 acres, which was for the time that was a lot, but a lot of band members disliked him because of that. My oldest uncle took over the farming operation. A lot of band members that were friends with him when my grandpa had it. Now he was basically the owner of that farm. They disliked him because and it's like today you see these farms with this huge equipment and all the facilities and everything and you think, man, they're making a lot of money and so they don't understand that there's big payments behind those. So I don't know. Again, I don't know so much about policies, but historically that's kind of how it worked in Missouass.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well, thank you for describing some of that you know, and just from my own knowledge too, just understanding just a lot of the laws, like with the pass and permit system, right, Like as First Nations, we were confined and incarcerated, essentially on reserve for many years, not allowed to leave reserves without the permission of the Indian agent, you know, to travel to see for any reason, to see family, to travel off, without that permission, or even just permission to sell right, Permission to sell any kind of grain or goods and needing that permission.
Speaker 1:So you know, having laws in place that really restrict just the freedom to do business, to travel, to move freely and to adapt to the changes.
Speaker 1:Right, because of course we had traditional lifestyles and our own ancestral food systems in place, and then, with the advent of settlement and reserves, so much of that changing so and leading to today right To a lot of the barriers that we're seeing in contemporary settings that have roots in historical issues and so and it looks different, like you said, you're speaking on behalf of Mistawasis, you know. And then there are other First Nations that have a different history in relation to farming and what might be happening in their communities. So thank you for sharing all of that. I really appreciate it. When it comes to the future of farming in Mistawasas, what does that look like for you? What do you see happening?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, thinking about Mistawasas and farming, I was becoming very negative and very skeptical that we would ever be able to get there, because how are we going to farm 6,000 acres? How are we going to farm 16,000? So I realized that I was becoming very negative. So I thought, well, no, let's take it right back to the basics and start with a small farm. So I actually had presentations from a gentleman from Ochapue's and also from Cowessess, where they started their band farm on one quarter section, and that's how they started and they grew and they grew, and so now, for example, this year in El Chapo, they have 6,000 acres. Next year they're going to go to 8,000.
Speaker 2:So for Mistletoe Washes, that's the direction I think that we need to go, and it's not going to be in the next year or two, because we're just planting seeds in our grade 10, 11 and 12s that you're going to be the farmers, you're going to be the ones taking this. So we need you to get yourself educated in crop sciences, in becoming an agronomist, like whatever. Whatever is required because agriculture has become so complicated. You need to know so much in order to grow that crop and then that's just growing it. Now you need to market it. You need to understand that if you're going to do a contract, that you have to make sure you're able to fulfill that contract in the fall. So there's a lot of risk there.
Speaker 2:But basically that's how I see us in Mistawas is that we're basically farmers right now, planting those seeds in our younger people to try get that interest.
Speaker 2:Another example of planting those seeds is that one of our teachers is teaching a course this semester on agriculture. So what he did was he made arrangements with our local farmers for the school kids to go ride on combines and like these are huge John Deere, like amazing, like huge, huge pieces of equipment, and so they were able to go ride on them and get the firsthand experience. And that's what we need to do get that interest developed into agriculture. Over the last few years we've been so focused on land-based learning and getting back to traditional uses of land as hunting, trapping, fishing, medicines, berry picking. We need to put that focus back into the agricultural part of our society because there's always going to be traditional agriculture in Mistawasis and we want to try and get our own people to farm our own land. But we haven't done it in so many years, we've forgotten how, so we need to relearn that, and that's by getting these young people involved, and that's where the future is going to be with them.
Speaker 1:Oh, wonderful. I'm curious to learn about how, being involved with Bridge to Land Water Sky, how that has impacted farming on Mistawasis, and just your thoughts on where things are at now and how it can evolve into the future.
Speaker 2:I think first and foremost it's given us the contacts to the people, to the professionals, to the experienced farmers. Example our pasture. Talk about rotating herds. In Mistawasas we never had to worry about that because we never had herds large enough that we would have to rotate them. So just educating ourselves and then opening up our minds about the possibilities and learning that there's not just traditional agriculture.
Speaker 2:Before the bridge I started to talk with the lands committee that we had a half section of land that was clover that's all it was, and it wasn't good for anybody. It was marginal land that never should have been worked up. So what are we going to do with it? So we put a fence around it, put some cattle in there, they got rid of the clover and then grass started growing. Our lands committee is so involved in what goes on in Mistawasas. Our chief and council give so much support.
Speaker 2:When I was land manager in the 80s and 90s our lands office was shoved way in the back because it was bookkeepingkeeping. It was. It was just registered. It was all paperwork we didn't have responsibility on. On what happened in mr wasis garbage was dumped. We would get on the phone and call the department of indian affairs. This is what's going on out here. We didn't have any responsibility. There's no consequences in our minds. As for the management of lands and mr wasis, and then we developed our land code and removed ourselves from the Indian Act on the sections relating to lands. And now if somebody came and dumped garbage, we have to call ourselves. We're the ones responsible for what happens in Mistawasis. We make the decisions. We don't rely on employees of the department to come out and say you should do this or you do that. We decide those things now.
Speaker 2:So it's taken a really change of mind to make this work, and the bridge helped us by again getting us in contact with these professionals. A perfect example I use all the time. We've got a half-section of land that we bought for our land claims probably 15 years ago, tried to cultivate it one year. The land was too light, couldn't do anything, so it sat for all these years. And then now the bridge came along and said, hey, we can help. Okay, well, we'll work with ducks and with the bridge. We put a fence around there A year ago. We were going to seed it down to grass.
Speaker 2:So we were in a bridge meeting and said, okay, well, what are you guys going to seed there? Well, I don't know. All we know is alfalfa and brome. All we know is alfalfa and brome and the mix changes whether you're going to be cutting hay or whether you're going to have it for pasture. So I put it back on our professionals by saying what do you recommend? What do you think would work there? I read the emails that went back and forth and it was so amazing that trying to figure out what to seed there could generate so much discussion. And it ended up that instead of alfalfa brome, there's nine different grass species, there's three different wheat grasses that come from the arid areas of the province, and then Ducks Unlimited on top of that puts in their pollinator blend Stuff.
Speaker 2:Like that we wouldn't be able to do. We wouldn't have the expertise. We wouldn't have the expertise, we wouldn't have the knowledge and with the bridge, we are the only Aboriginal-led living lab in Canada. So I was asked what does that mean to you? Well, at first I was like well, I don't know. And then it got to me. It helped me to understand when I was asked that question is that we never learned how to lead. We were always being told by experts, and even go further, back to farm instructors, to Indian agents. This is what's good for you, this is what you should do, this is where you should go.
Speaker 2:But now because, because of our land code, because of the bridge and because of our lands committee and the support we get from chief and council, we grew strong enough to say this is what we want, this is what we see, this is the picture we see. How can you help us to get to that picture? And an example is we have a quarter section that's adjacent to one of our lakes. It's been in production for probably I don't know 30 years, but it's right next to the lake and there's always been chemicals, there's always been fertilizer, so we worry about runoff. But it's gotten to the point now in Mistawas where Mistawas is not dependent on the income coming from the land. So we have the choice now to say nope, we don't need a crop growing there. So that quarter section was taken out of production Through the bridge, the baselines for carbon sequestration, greenhouse gas, all of that. That was done. So now the question was what do you want there? Well, I know what I want there is. I want it to look like the land that's around it the, the native grasses, the shrubs, the trees. But instead of that being roger's idea, it was suggested that we talk to the school kids. So that was part of my presentation, was talking about the bridge, talk about about this quarter section and asking those young kids start thinking about what you would like to see there and how it would benefit us. And so again, it's going back to the youth, trying to get that development of this is what we're going to end up seeing there. Then when they drive by there every year they'll say I was part of that.
Speaker 2:When we talk about the bridge, it's generated interest in the kids in the birds and the small animals that are out there so that we get to know what's out there. We have so many different types of animals and actually it's a different funding area but we're getting bison and so the bridge has involved some of the individuals that have done on identifying pasture areas and the health of that area. They're also helping with where we're going to put bison. So all these things. And we're talking about entomology bees. We don't have beehives anywhere, so let's bring bees. So there's so many of these, I guess, side effects of the bridge. Bridge helped us open our minds and to accept that, yes, we can do something, yes, we, we can make a change and we, ultimately, we have to look after our little part that's so wonderful.
Speaker 1:Roger, is there anything that you feel is important to share that I haven't asked you yet?
Speaker 2:As I'm driving home I'll probably say, geez, I should have thought I should have done, but no, I think the biggest thing is the pride that I have in Mr Wossus. When my dad went to residential school, he was punished for speaking Cree. So when he married my mom and they started having kids, he said my kids are not going to speak Cree. So when he married my mom and they started having kids, he said my kids are not going to speak Cree. And as I was growing up, I had no issue with that because I was going to go into business world. I was going to be an accountant or work in a bank. I wasn't going to live in Mistawasis, I had to get away from the reserve. And so, speaking Cree, I felt it had no value. Speak in Cree, I felt it had no value.
Speaker 2:And so, as my life went on, I didn't leave Mr Woss's. I kept coming back and then when I started working with the Lands Committee and with the bridge and starting to truly understand what Mr Woss's was and what we had, then my pride as beinga member of Mr Woss's started to grow. I would never have done this when I was in my younger years. Nine percent of the time I wear a shirt with a Mr Woss and the Hayawack label a decal on the front of it. The jacket I wear other than my winter jacket has a huge Mr Woss and the Hayawack Lands and Resources Department on the back of it.
Speaker 2:I'm proud to be from Mr Walsh and I want people to know that that's where I'm from, and we had an event this past from the U of S and one of the professors. The statement they made was Mr Walsh is one of the cool kids and we want to hang out with that cool kid, and so I think that's probably what I want to try to convey to everybody, but also to our band members that be proud of Mr Walsh. It's a beautiful place and we're going to make it even more beautiful.
Speaker 1:That's so wonderful, Roger. I'm really proud to have been able to speak with you today. I really appreciate all that you've shared from your personal and professional life. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, and I love the opportunity to share Mr Wass's. I'll take every chance I can. I will gladly do that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Roger.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Take care Bye. This is the Bridging Relations Podcast. Thank you for listening. Looking forward to connecting with you next time. Funding for this project has been provided by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada through the Agricultural Climate Solutions Living Labs program.