Bridging Relations Podcast
Hello and Welcome to the Bridging Relations Podcast. We're bringing you stories from the first and only Indigenous-led Living Lab in Canada.
This Living Lab is a collaboration of producers, scientists, and Indigenous land managers, working together to develop and test innovative solutions in real-world conditions to improve the environmental impact of current farming practices.
Here we're exploring diverse perspectives, stories, and experiences, to better understand one another and to enhance agricultural practices for healthy land, water, and sky that support all of our relations now and in the future.
Additionally, we delve into Indigenous-led regenerative agriculture and land management, sharing insights from Indigenous and non-Indigenous producers, consumers, scientists, land managers, community members, and youth on the prairies.
Thank you for joining us, we're so glad you're here!
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Bridging Relations Podcast
Sustainable Agriculture through Farmer Innovation | S1 Ep. 4
Join us as we chat with Jennifer Bogdan, the project agronomist for Bridge to Land, Water, Sky. Jennifer shares her experiences, highlighting the importance of working with farmers and landowners in co-developing Beneficial Management Practices (BMPs) that address their unique challenges. We’ll dive into the real-world successes and challenges of adopting sustainable practices, focusing on collaboration and practical implementation. This episode celebrates the ingenuity of farmers trialling BMPs and explores how these practices can be bundled for maximum impact.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast. I'm your host, michelle Brass. Here we dive into diverse perspectives on agriculture and land management, blending Western science and farmer expertise with Indigenous knowledge and wisdom. Together, we can address challenges and opportunities that enhance agricultural practices to support healthy land, water and sky for future generations. Thank you for joining us on this journey. On this episode, we're going to hear from Jennifer Bogdan. She's the project agronomist for Bridge to Land, water, sky and she's going to tell us more about the important work happening at the bridge and, in particular, the work being done regarding best management practices, or BMPs, when it comes to farming and agriculture. Hi Jennifer, hi Michelle. So for those who don't know, what does an agronomist do?
Speaker 2:So an agronomist is someone who works in the branch of agriculture that deals with field crop production and soil science, soil management, that kind of thing. There's also the term agrologist that someone might hear. An agrologist is basically someone who also works in that same field but has a specific code of ethics that they have to deal with. So if you're making any kind of a recommendation to producers, then it's best that you're registered as an agrologist, because there's legislation, like I said, the code of practice that goes along with that. But yeah, as far as an agronomist goes, just someone who's an expert in field crop production.
Speaker 1:Okay, wonderful. So tell me about the work that you do as the project agronomist for Bridge to Land, Water, Sky.
Speaker 2:So my role at the Bridge is to connect with the producers and also connect with our science team and as well with the land advisory folks at both First Nations. I came into the project about a year and a half ago, so the British Land Water Sky was already a couple of years into the project. At that point they realized they needed to have an agronomist, someone who can understand more the producer's role and understand the farms and the farming practices and that kind of thing. So they brought me into the project and so my role has been to work with the producers, really build a relationship with them, get to know their operations, because the producers that we are working with are really quite different. Some are really large producers where they're farming tens of thousands of acres, and then we've got other producers who are, you know, average size farm or some that are smaller. Some have cattle, some are just straight grain production.
Speaker 2:So they just needed someone to connect with the producers and get to know them better and understand their needs, their challenges, and then take all that information and work with the science team. So when we're starting to develop ideas for trials, we would then have the producers' information and their point of view, so I work with them, and then also all the discussions on BMPs. We also involve the First Nations as well, because it's their land that is being farmed, and we just want to make sure that everything that we're doing and working towards also aligns with the vision that the nations have for their land as well. So it's a project that involves a lot of different components, a lot of wonderful people, and we're just bridging it all together.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's wonderful. I love that. What are some of the challenges that you're looking to solve or to address in the work that you're doing?
Speaker 2:So the overall goals of the Living Labs focuses around reducing greenhouse gas emissions and also increasing carbon sequestration. So those are two overall goals. Our BMP plan is all about co-development, and so by co-development we're really talking to the farmers and approaching them about what are they having challenges with on the land they're farming, like what do they see issues? Because they've been farming it for a number of years and so they really know the land, and so there's already things that have come up that they've identified like, hey, this is a problem, we need to fix this. And so that's where coming to them and coming up with a plan with them about the best management practices is really important.
Speaker 2:I think what's different with the Living Labs project compared to other producer programs in the past, is that a lot of producer programs, you know, would approach the producer and be like, hey, we need you to do this, this and this. And then the producer would say like, okay, I'll do that. Or you know, maybe this program isn't for me, but this one is flipping it around, and what we're doing is we're approaching the producer and saying, hey, what can we do to help you? And so sometimes it's it's kind of a hard question. You know there's not always a maybe a big, glaring answer.
Speaker 2:Sometimes a producer might be thinking, well, okay, like what do you want me to do? Like it's like well, no, you tell us what you want to do and we'll help you with that. So it's nice that the whole theme of the Living Lab is that we're dealing with tailored BMPs that we want to work for that specific farm, work for that specific farm. Just because a certain BMP might work for one farm, it doesn't mean it's going to work for another, because each farm has its own challenges. Maybe it's logistics, or maybe it's people power or whatnot. So, yeah, we're really big on the co-development piece for the BMP development.
Speaker 1:So have you worked in an environment like this before, where you're asking producers what they need as opposed to providing a request to them?
Speaker 2:No, I've never been in a role quite like this before, so my background stems from being an industry agronomist for a lot of my career. So I was working for typically a large company in egg retail and my job then was helping farmers find a solution, but it was usually like what can I use to kill this weed or kill this insect or manage this disease and that kind of thing, and it was more more sales driven, I guess. So, yeah, so this has been just a really interesting project, Like. What excited me about this project was that, you know, it was maybe just a really good opportunity to see what we can do to take farming to that next level as far as BMPs Like a lot of farmers are already doing a lot of good things on their farms.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I think the public or, you know, the consumer they only hear and maybe see all of these negative things associated with farming but they don't actually know how much farmers are doing a good job. So, for example, minimum tillage or no-till, that practice started decades ago and, you know, farmers really have adopted it all over the prairies and so they've already kind of raised that bar. We're not doing recreational tillage, Like we understand that the soil can be eroded, and the soil is the start of everything. That's what grows the crop and everything right. So farmers are already doing a lot of good things. But, just like with everything, I think you can look at every industry out there and there's always room for improvement. So it's like, okay, we're at a you know, this kind of level of best management practices that is pretty common in the agriculture industry. So what's the next level? What else can we do? So that's what I thought was interesting about this project.
Speaker 1:And are there specific management practices that you're looking or exploring and testing right now to see if they would be a BMP?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So with our living lab we are focusing on BMP bundles that we call them. So our science team believes that, like, just doing one BMP on a field might give you a you know a bit of a difference. You might see a difference or you might not all the time, but if you include three BMPs on a field, that's where you're going to see the most amount of improvement on a field. So our goal for this project is to have a BMP from three bundles that we have put together applied to each field. So for our three bundles we have in-field enhancements, so that's things like crop diversification, crop rotation, maybe incorporating something like cover cropping or intercropping, trying those different concepts out. So that would be bundle number one. Our second bundle is to do with landscape enhancements or diversification. So that would be things like do we have marginal areas in the field that just aren't productive and can we put them down to permanent cover so we're not just dumping inputs onto a piece of the field that's not providing any economic return for us? Providing any economic return for us Are there patches of salinity that aren't growing anything except weeds that you know we can seed to a permanent cover? Are there some places that you know, maybe a corner of the field that is just always flooded, you know, eight out of ten years Maybe it used to be a wetland. So can we restore that into a wetland? And just you know, if it wants to be a wetland, let it be a wetland, that kind of thing. We're also looking at implementing things like pollinator strips, so just providing a refuge area for all those beneficial insects that help not only pollinate the crops but provide a refuge for predatory insects that actually eat insect pests that we have to deal with in the field.
Speaker 2:So that would be for the second bundle, and then our third bundle is to do with input optimization, you could call it. So let's take a look at the fertilizer and the pesticides that we're applying and are there some modifications that we can do there For our fertilizer, are we making sure that we're applying the 4R principle? So in the industry, the 4Rs refer to the right type of fertilizer product applied at the right rate of application in the right place in the field or in the soil and at the right time of the year. So are we applying all those principles to our fields? And variable rate fertilizer application Are we using that in order to maximize our fertilizer use efficiency, and then also looking at our pest management as well. And then also looking at our pest management as well, are we using integrated pest management principles to manage our weeds and insects and diseases?
Speaker 2:If we have to spray an insecticide, for example, are we making sure that we're using the correct economic threshold for that insect and we're not just spraying an insecticide just because we see a bug out there that we don't like? And then there are, depending on the insect you're trying to control. There are some specific insecticides out there that have come onto the market that are just really a lot safer to use as far as an application standpoint for humans, but also they're less toxic or even non-toxic to the non-pest insect species. So they're just a better choice overall if you're trying to control a certain insect.
Speaker 1:So when you're doing this, is there any shortage of ideas for testing different BMPs?
Speaker 2:I guess there's not a shortage of ideas, kind of the sky is the limit, as long as it's something that's an improvement in what the current practice already is. But it's not always as easy as it sounds either, because there's a lot of factors that come into play for the farmer. Some of the ideas like maybe something like intercropping, which is going to be more labor intensive because you've grown two crops together and now you have to separate them in the end, so there's an extra step after harvest. So those kind of things might be a draw to some farmers. But other farmers might just say you know what I am like farming way too much, I'm way too busy, I just don't have time for that stuff, right? So really we need to get back to the co-development piece, talking with the farmer about what their needs are, their ideas and like what really would work for them, and so it's kind of all back to that, the why. I guess.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the barriers that might come up when it comes to implementing BMPs?
Speaker 2:So logistics is a big barrier that we deal with again, with producers that are farming huge amount of acres, they're in different places at different times and they have, in some cases, dozens of people that they already have to manage, and so for them, when you're adding complexity, you're asking them to do different practices on, you know, even just like a small amount of a field. It's just one extra little thing that they just might not have time for. There's also a level of their interest as well. I guess it comes down to that need. If they really feel like there's a need for a change of practice on their farm, then they're going to be much more invested in the amount of time and effort that it takes to solve that problem versus something that you're asking them to do. So there's that Cost is always going to be one.
Speaker 2:A lot of times, if we're asking a producer to adopt a new technology or try out a new fertilizer product or things like that, there's usually a cost associated with it.
Speaker 2:And farmers, they're already running a business with really tight margins that they have to pay attention to, so cost is always going to be way up high on their list, right? And are they going to get a return from doing this and what's the benefit? High on their list, right? And are they going to get a return from doing this and what's the benefit? And so that is a challenge for some of our BMPs, especially ones that might even be longer term, like maybe in some areas we do want to establish, for example, like some kind of a pollinator strip, but maybe within that pollinator strip, we would like to plant some trees as well. Well, trees take a long time to grow, right? So what is the long term payback from doing this BMP and is, in the end, is that going to pencil out for them? So cost is is always something that they're definitely looking at, which is understandable because they're running a business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, of course. So tell me a bit from your own perspective. How is it doing this project in working with farmers and producers, in this different capacity in testing things in real world conditions? How are you finding it, even just from a professional standpoint, to be working on this project?
Speaker 2:It's been a lot of fun. I've been involved in farmer trials before and so it's a realistic way of of doing research. No, I'm not a statistician or anything, so there's there's always like that component that scientists have to, you know, consider when they're trying to make sense of all the data. I mean a lot of farmers do their own trials to begin with. They're not even tied to a project or a program, they're just always testing things out.
Speaker 2:So I think there's already that innovation in the producers that we work with and they're wanting to see how things work too. So in that case it's helpful and it's engaging. There's that willingness from them to try something new and really test to see how it works on their farm. A lot of producers you know like there might be their neighbor might be trying something, but their neighbor is also farming on maybe different soil and with different equipment and all that stuff, so it doesn't always pertain to everybody's farm. So yeah, the on-farm trials are really valuable and they're real world conditions and sometimes things turn out. Sometimes they don't, sometimes they get seeded on the wrong field, sometimes they don't. This is what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um. So so are there any misconceptions that come up for ideas for different farming methods that simply wouldn't work here or, um, that aren't feasible and it's based in a misconception of what's really happening here on the ground?
Speaker 2:So good or bad. There's so much information online and um, so someone could be listening to say a podcast or reading an article or listening to something, but that information is maybe all based from the States, and so they're thinking that they have this idea of what farming is and how food production works here based on you know something they heard about corn and soybean growers down in the States which is completely different than what we're doing up here, right? So I think there are a lot of misconceptions in how crop production actually happens up here. It comes up with people that just are more disconnected from farming and, like I kind of addressed it before, but recognizing what our farmers already do. So, for example, like back to the you know minimum till thing, like farmers here have been doing it for so long that people forgot what things looked like before.
Speaker 2:That happened when in the spring the fields would all be black and then we would have lots of summer follow around, where there's an entire growing season, where you're not letting anything cover the soil and it's just allowed to blow everywhere. I mean, I think a lot of people have seen pictures from the dirty 30s, but that's where the name comes from. It's from all the soil erosion that happened during that time because of all the excessive tillage, and I mean that was also before herbicides came into play, right? So the farmers really, really that was their method of weed control, was that physical weed control? But it was also very damaging to the soil and left the soil, just you know, wide open for wind and water erosion. But people, now they've they don't see that anymore. So they, I don't think they recognize what the farmers are doing now has been an improvement in what has happened before.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if it's human nature or not to point out the negative in everything, but you know, they, there's always so many negatives that get thrown at about farmers but not recognizing all the strides that we have made as an industry, I guess Well, and and I'm curious then with the research that that we have made as an industry, I guess, well, and I'm curious then with the research that you're doing, is there a lot of potential within agriculture and farming to reduce emissions, to improve carbon sequestration by changing certain practices. Is that something that has a lot of?
Speaker 2:potential? Yeah, I think so. I mean, fertilizer management is a big one, especially nitrogen management. So that's definitely one of the BMPs that we're focusing on, but that's also been top of mind for a number of years now. I mean, there's research from 40 years ago about nitrogen placement in the soil and where is it best to apply your nitrogens?
Speaker 2:Although sometimes farmers, even though agronomically there is a benefit of maybe a certain practice, for example, like a fertilizer application, sometimes logistics will trump agronomy. You know, a farmer might know that it's best to, for example, ban their nitrogen fertilizer to make sure it's in the soil versus broadcasting it, for example, but maybe it's just the logistics on their operation just don't allow for the extra time it takes to ban the fertilizer when broadcasting it on top is just a faster option for their operation size. So there are those considerations as well. And then there are some products. For example, if you are going to be broadcasting your nitrogen, there are certain fertilizer products or additives that you could be using to best reduce the losses of the nitrogen if you are doing that kind of application. So we talk about agronomics and you know those best management practices but again, like, sometimes logistics just doesn't work and it's. It all depends on on the farm.
Speaker 1:Well, and then it brings me back to that co-development piece as to why it's so important to be working alongside to to explore these different options, or to to do some of the research to find out what would be feasible and implemented at different levels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So what are your hopes and goals for your work with the bridge and with everything that everyone is doing in this project?
Speaker 2:I guess the hopes and goals would be just to make it a change. You know, if a farmer identifies something as an issue having trouble managing even just a small piece of one field that they're farming, and if we can come up with a plan that is a long-term solution that fixes that problem and also opens up you know, maybe someone's eyes to applying that on a broader scale, that would be, I guess, the long-term goal. I guess just really honing in on a field Maybe, for example, it's just two acres of a corner of a field that just aren't producing and you'd think like geez, it's only two acres. But I mean, if you take two acres, multiply that across multiple fields all across the prairies, that can amount to a big change. So I think that would be the goal is just to get some other ideas out there. Let's really hone in and and see what kind of little changes we can do and create that you know ripple effect and see where it goes, I guess.
Speaker 1:Jennifer, that was really wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you sharing your work and the work that you're doing with the bridge with all of us here today.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Michelle.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Michelle.