Bridging Relations Podcast
Hello and Welcome to the Bridging Relations Podcast. We're bringing you stories from the first and only Indigenous-led Living Lab in Canada.
This Living Lab is a collaboration of producers, scientists, and Indigenous land managers, working together to develop and test innovative solutions in real-world conditions to improve the environmental impact of current farming practices.
Here we're exploring diverse perspectives, stories, and experiences, to better understand one another and to enhance agricultural practices for healthy land, water, and sky that support all of our relations now and in the future.
Additionally, we delve into Indigenous-led regenerative agriculture and land management, sharing insights from Indigenous and non-Indigenous producers, consumers, scientists, land managers, community members, and youth on the prairies.
Thank you for joining us, we're so glad you're here!
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Bridging Relations Podcast
When We Look After the Land, It Looks After Us | S1 Ep. 5
Join a powerful conversation with Harry Lafond, a respected elder from Muskeg Lake Cree Nation, as he shares the profound Cree worldview of Wâhkôhtowin—building relationships with all living things—and contrasts it with modern agricultural practices that threaten traditional food sources and ecosystems. Reflecting on cultural losses like vanished berry bushes and ecological damage, Harry offers hope through community-driven initiatives including Muskeg Lake’s food forest and the Bridge to Land Water Sky Living Lab. This dialogue bridges Indigenous knowledge and modern science, fostering collaboration and sustainable farming practices that nurture the land for generations to come.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Brass. Here we dive into diverse perspectives on agriculture and land management, blending Western science and farmer expertise with Indigenous knowledge and wisdom. Together, we can address challenges and opportunities that enhance agricultural practices to support healthy land, water and sky for future generations. Thank you for joining us on this journey. On today's episode, we're going to discuss the importance of stewarding land under a Cree or Nehia worldview, especially when it comes to protecting local food and medicinal plants. Joining us for this conversation is Harry Lafond. He's a member of Muskeg Lake Cree Nation and has devoted much of his life to his community. He served as chief for 10 years and was also director of education. Over the years, his focus has been working with people in reconciliation-type work. Recently, he's had growing concerns about current farming practices that are out of alignment with the Cree worldview and the impact that that can have on his community and lands, and that's what we'll be discussing today. Hello, Harry, and welcome.
Speaker 2:It's been a beautiful day. After a terrific deep freeze, we're ready now. We're starting to get those itchy feelings for the gardening season.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I couldn't agree more. I was outside yesterday walking very carefully on the ice, because all the melting snow and then the freezing is still here, but I could hear birds and there's just this kind of emerging from our dens all winter.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:So, Harry, tell me about yourself before we dig into this deeper conversation about the lands and worldview. Share a little bit more about who you are and what drives your work and your passion.
Speaker 2:Well, I grew up where I'm living now, where my parents settled there about 100 years ago, and I came back to live there to help them to have a quality of life in their last years with us, and so it's a very special place in my heart.
Speaker 2:It always has been, because the land, my dad's pasture, the creek that runs to the north of us, the berry bushes on the south border of the reserve, they all hold stories and memories of who we are as a family. You know, when we sit down with my sisters and my brothers, there's a lot of stories that come out of the land, experiences we had, you know, with animals like horses and cows and gophers, and it was a very, very alive world when we were growing up, and so I returned there and I continued to nurture those feelings and to pay attention to my neighbors. Sometimes it's a white tail, or this winter it's been a little red fox that's kind of adopted my leftovers. It's been a little red fox that's kind of adopted my leftovers, and so that's what makes me really feel secure and rooted, and my family most of my family, where I live home, it's their home, even though they've all been somewhere else for the last 50, 60 years.
Speaker 1:You know they've lived in other places, in other cities, but going home and coming to my yard and getting reconnected, oh, wow, that's so beautiful and I just love the imagery and the connection and relationship that you would build over years in that same place, because in my experience and it's limited because I grew up in the city, I did live on reserve for about 10 years when you're in the same place but over many seasons it changes. It's the same place, yet it's never the same because it's constantly changing throughout the winter you mentioned, you know, white-tailed deer. This year it was a fox. There's always different visitors. The landscape changes. Tell me a little bit about that, about, maybe, the experience especially for those who are disconnected from the land for various reasons what that's like to have that deeper relationship to a land, a piece of land, over time.
Speaker 2:The relationship is characterized by many different feelings and almost like there is a spiritual element to it, you know, and like the whole being, my whole being as a human being is affected by watching the turn of events over the last 70 years on land that I live on. What started out as land where animals lived eventually became a wheat field and canola field, and in the process of becoming a canola field, the berry bushes on the south side of our reserve boundary began to die and so we no longer pick berries there. It's not safe. So there is a sense of hurt, I guess, that I sense for the land because it gifted us for so many years. It gifted my family with food at a time when we were very poor but didn't know it because we had lots of berries. Very poor but didn't know it because we had lots of berries. We always had food, you know. So that gives me joy, that gives me a sense of thankfulness, you know, to the creator, to the land, the trees and those animals.
Speaker 2:But also, I think, in the last few years I've begun to worry a lot. I've become very concerned, and it's primarily because there are people around us, not in the community of Muskeg as such. But the people, our neighbors on the outside have a very different connection to the land and some of the practices they are bringing into their farming operations. We're starting to see the impact on our land. The south bushes of our southern lake are dying. Every year more bush area becomes just dead wood, you know. So lately I've been worried a lot about what's going to happen to our land over there if we don't come to some kind of an understanding.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the practices that you're seeing that are causing concern with the impacts that they might be having?
Speaker 2:Initially the on-the-ground spraying, we always felt that it was having some kind of an impact and we were very careful not to put our gardens where they would be touched by the drift of the spray during the summer months, and so we were able to sort of work out a solution, you know, to keep our gardens clean and the food clean, you know by location. But more recently, looking very, very much a dangerous, all-encompassing impact that we're facing, and that's aerial spraying. I think, initially, the first few summers that we had aerial spraying in there, immediately the people in the heavily settled areas began to complain about residue on their vehicles, on their houses, on themselves, and so we tried to address that with the farmers. Well, they no longer spray on reserve land as such, the banned land, but we do have CPs and we have little control over those.
Speaker 1:Can you remind people what CPs are?
Speaker 2:Claims of possession. That was introduced after the Second World War as a way of rewarding the veterans for enlisting and defending Canada and unfortunately in our situation, the federal government decided that they would give the Indigenous veterans Indigenous land which was already theirs. So it's kind of a really weird way of dealing with veterans.
Speaker 1:Exactly right, and these are those certificates of possession where they'd have that little bit of land that is, quote privately owned but it's banned land, or community nation land.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, it's been a point of contention right from the day it started. There's been a tension whenever their conversation comes up about land and CPs and banned land and that. So we're a long ways from resolving that issue in our community. I think one of the things that has come up you know from eyewitness accounts and especially on the south side of the reserve is that, know, they may think they've shut off the spray, but there's stuff coming off those plains and that's what's causing the bushes to begin to die, and right next to the bushes is our lake. So if they're poisoning the lake, then the pelicans who live there will no longer be able to live there, and the geese and the ducks and all the water birds that are part of our community. Really.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I hear you talk about this, and especially in terms of aerial spraying and the winds and and how wind impacts that and the interconnectedness of land. So even if we're talking about reserve land, you know privately held land, cp land, it's land that's all interconnected and impacted. It's not like rooms in a house where you have these walls and doors and things that you can close out and have these sealed areas. It's just not so. What our neighbours do, what we do as humans impacts. You know, our neighbours, our animal relatives, the waters, it's all interconnected. And so I hear you expressing concern about current farming practices, aerial spraying. I'm always wondering how do we reconcile or how do we work alongside one another when there are these different worldviews on how to interact and manage the land with these different practices and impacts? You know this is something that historically we've been at odds since contact, since treaty signing. It's really these two different worldviews coming together on how to use, interact, live on and share the land.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the way we're addressing the issue starting this year is we're going the way of the Western mind, which is, if you have a concern, get the data you know, collect the data, get hard evidence of what is happening here.
Speaker 2:So Muskeg has signed a partnership agreement with Polytechnic to begin to measure the air quality and the land quality in the community and to begin sort of a major look at the changes that are occurring from year to year and using that, we hope to be able to use that data to have more realistic conversation with the farmers Because really, from our perspective and looking outwards to these farmers, the driving motivation for them is maximizing their profit. So, without being disrespectful, once we have sufficient data, once we have sufficient data, we can, I think, offer out our hand of dialogue. You know, come and talk to us, explain to us why you need to farm that way, and we'll show you what your farming is doing to us and to our land and to our food source and to the wild animals that live on our land that we appreciate and need to be there, you know, to give us that holistic community. That's part of our worldview as Cree people.
Speaker 1:Harry, can you share a little bit about that? What is your worldview as Cree people?
Speaker 2:It's based on the foundational Cree law of Wahkohtuin.
Speaker 2:Wahkohtuin is that. It sounds like it's very simple, you know making relations, but when you begin to unpack it, you find that Wahkohtuin is like a giant tree with a bunch of branches on it. Akotowin touches just everything in the way the people see themselves, see their neighbors, see the land, the animals and all of creation, everything that the creator has put here to create a world where everything has a place, it has a function, has a place and there is an interconnectedness and interdependence that exists, that is very strong and necessary for survival. And so Huacotuan, then, is really we're only beginning to unpack it in my community as sort of almost like our constitutional belief statement. You know, this is us. We believe in the power of Wakotu and to hold us together and to strengthen us so that we can pass that strength on to our children and grandchildren. You know we want to teach them how to be relational in their approach to life and less individualistic and less looking at the world as a giant commodity for them to take apart and eventually destroy.
Speaker 1:I find it interesting.
Speaker 1:So using the word commodity right, these are discussions I've had with people in Indigenous food sovereignty movements, people who are concerned about farming, farmers and living in Treaty 4 and Treaty 6 territories where, of course, farming is such a significant part of the economy.
Speaker 1:And so this idea of commodifying, when you look at it through Indigenous worldviews Cree worldview, sota worldviews that it's like putting a price tag on our relatives right, putting a price tag on the relatives right, putting a price tag on the animals, on the plants and the medicines, the land itself. And so I always wonder how, in current society, to share, how do we build bridges with our farmers, people who are in food production, how do we have these conversations? Have you had experience having conversations about? You know, the worldview where we look, where some people look at it as a commodity, as you know, how can we increase yields and how can we increase our profit margin and, you know, and trying to feed their families and trying to do all of this work. Yet we've got these very real concerns. I'm always wondering how do we ever possibly reconcile these two different worldviews when it comes to how we live on the land, particularly when it comes to food, food production, local food, food growing, medicinal plants, all the different types of food, whether they're cultivated or, you know, grown wild.
Speaker 2:Well, in terms of conversations, my second oldest brother was a was a farmer and he was a totally colonized farmer and he and I had some interesting conversations over the years about treatment of the land around my mom and dad's house, you know, and and the trees and the berry bushes that he enjoyed so much when berries were converted into pie. But what I've been doing in the last couple of years is just looking outside of our community to see what's happening out there. Are all farmers like this, you know, like our neighbors? Are all farmers like this, you know, like our neighbors? Or are there people who have realized how they're doing their farming is counterproductive? And, interestingly, I ran across two examples and I've been trying to get my community to bring those two parties into our community to have them tell us why they changed the way they did farming.
Speaker 2:One is a young farmer from Humboldt. After the hockey team had that major, major accident you know the Broncos he was impacted by that event very directly and it kind of spun him into a reflection about the importance of life and the importance of how we treat life. And he was interviewed on CBC I believe it was, that's where I heard it. Eventually he changed the way he did farming to pay honor to the land that he was on and to change the crops that he was growing and the rotations, and he did all kinds of interesting things to help the land to stay healthy and to keep offering its gifts to him as an occupant there. That was one example.
Speaker 2:The other example was in western Saskatchewan. This one was a little bit more different in the sense that it was a big operation and the young couple that were farming very deliberately chose to farm in such a way as to respect the land that they were on. You know it was a young family and they were teaching their kids that you have to farm in a friendly way with the land that you live on to make sure that it continues and, through the next generations, to do what it was created to do, which is help human beings to live. So you know, if there are two, there's probably more. You know, and it's a question of if we can get enough of those people into the same room. Their voice will become really meaningful and significant.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree with you, there's more than two and there's many people that I've spoken to that are really concerned about farming practices, conventional methods and the impact that it has on the land. And I've been really fascinated to see in recent years, you know, an interest in regenerative farming, a farming that really looks at understanding how to build healthy soil, understanding the relationship between animals and plants on the land and the relationship that they have together and how things differ when you separate out species that are meant to be together. And I'm not trying to be dismissive of very real concerns when it comes to larger scale farming, when it comes to pest control and all of these really real concerns. But I am also very fascinated and encouraged when there are people having these conversations right, and I think you're right getting them into a room and discussing these and trying to find some common place, because I know so many farmers do care about the land and the waters.
Speaker 2:You know it's where they live too, so there's also another trend and this I've noticed just in the last three years, and I think the people who make the machinery need to be held accountable for the kind of machinery that they're making and the demands they're putting on farmers to farm in ways that are harmful. And that is the drive to take down every tree and dry every slough. It's just amazing how many piles of brush I saw yesterday driving from North Balfour back to Muskeg. You know that whole area between Muskeg and North Balfour used to be beautiful fields with lots of little knolls of trees and sloughs. They're all knocked down, they're gone and the sloughs are gone, and so do farmers know that every time you dry up a slough you affect the moisture content underneath. You're actually making your land drier than it would have been if you allowed those sloughs to do their work, Never mind the animals, the wild animals that have been displaced.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even when you think 10, 20, 50 years ago and beyond, the habitats that have been destroyed to make room for large farmland and then these little bits that are left, yeah, it's concerning.
Speaker 1:So I know I came to visit, actually, muskeg Lake a couple of years ago, was there for a couple of days and driving out there one morning I passed some farmland where the sloughs and the trees were being bulldozed down large machinery backhoes, and that was early in the morning and by the end of the day, when I was done, after a full day driving back, it was buried. It was completely flat and it was so fast. And I've talked to other farmers who have concerns about that and my understanding is that there's a lot of policy in place that encourages that type of destruction. And so, yeah, I think that these are very big conversations and necessary conversations, because it took hours to bury that habitat. But what is the long-term impact? How do we ever recover from that? And I think about those berry bushes that you were just talking about, you know and what we can be losing.
Speaker 2:Interestingly, you know, what used to be Muskeg Lakeland is now owned by farmers on the east side of the reserve, you know, after 1919 surrender, and that farmer has leveled every bush and created a vast open field. And I'm waiting for that first windstorm that comes from the west over the hills and we're going to be seeing a lot of big dust storms in the long run. We've seen it before, we've experienced it and I think that's the kind of conversations that need to be had, you know, to remember what has happened in the past when the land has been mistreated and it reacts in a way, you know, to deliver the message that this is not acceptable.
Speaker 1:I love that phrase that it reacts. You know because it does, and some of the conversations I've had with other elders and knowledge keepers around farming or even issues when it comes to, say, climate change and what's been happening worldwide and locally, it's often referred to as this is a response. Right, it's the land reacting. It's a consequence of breaking natural laws and the original instructions that we were given on how to live in relationship with the lands and the animals and the waters, and so I love that phrase.
Speaker 2:One of my casual reading practices is archaeology magazines. I don't know why, but I like old bones, I guess. Anyway, so I've been reading our archaeology magazines for years and I really find it fascinating that we should actually teach archaeology to the kids, because there have been so many civilizations all over the world that have disappeared directly because of the way they treated the land, you know, whether it's in Peru or in Mexico or in Africa. You know, and we could learn so much about respect for the land if we would pay attention to what our ancestors had to live through, you know, as a consequence of how they farmed and, in many cases, cut down the forests.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more. Looking at that historically, yeah, exactly. One question I have for you is what are your thoughts on, say, the work that is happening at Bridge to Land Water Sky, you know, looking at different farming practices that leads to healthy waters, healthy land, healthy air that benefits people, that benefits, you know, the ecosystems? Do you have any thoughts on looking at doing things in a different way that might incorporate more that worldview that is respectful of all life and the impact that our decisions have?
Speaker 2:It's a breath of fresh air. We've been waiting a long time for something to change in the way the land is treated in our communities, and I think we're doing interesting things and generating interesting conversations, and it's already. I think we're doing interesting things and generating interesting conversations, and it's already. I think helping the children to realize land is important for them. You know they're getting it in the school, they're getting it in land-based education and they're getting it when they get out there and they pick apples. You know, for themselves, for their community, it's all interrelated and it delivers a really positive message.
Speaker 2:I think we have to broaden our conversation. Right now it's Muskeg, missedawasis, but we need to broaden because some of what we're talking about and some of what we're trying to change flows through our neighbors, like the lakes in Muskeg are fed by streams and by lakes that are not on reserve land, and then they're flowing through farmers' fields and so what they do on their farms is flowing into our community and to our lakes in the long run, and then it flows through and keeps going to the river. You know our lake empties into the North Saskatchewan River and so we're. You know I guess there's a certain amount of being complicit, you know, with the practice by damaging the North Saskatchewan River, you know, as it flows through our land into that river. So you know, I like what we're doing, I'm really positive and my family really are very supportive and we try to make sure the people who are on the front lines of those projects know that we appreciate what they're doing. And if we can volunteer, we do and we sit down and we talk and we feel that we have to be the ones to create that community inclusion feeling for especially the people who are not from the reserve, who are working with us on this, we have to make them feel like, yeah, we need you, we appreciate you and keep providing us with the leadership that you have now.
Speaker 2:But, like I said, we need to keep pushing the boundaries of our influence, you know actively. Unfortunately, you know our colonized minds have made us waiters. We wait for most of the time. We're waiting for government, and so it's been. Another one of our subtle initiatives here in Muskeg is to say what are you waiting for? Why are you waiting? You can do it yourself. You don't need some guy from Ottawa to agree that what you're doing is good. You, as a community member decide. So we're trying to foster that thinking, you know, so that we don't become waiters and we can get right to it Plant a tree if you need to plant a tree.
Speaker 1:Well, and speaking of planting a tree, tell me about your food forest on Muskeg Lake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a miracle and you know it just needed that one person, you know, who'd come into the community and spout off ideas that nobody had ever heard before in Muskeg Lake. But he didn't stop there, he just did little things and they caught on, and next thing, you know, we had an orchard, and next thing, you know, we had a. We had an orchard, and I think it's changed attitudes in the community about food. It used to be that in a, you know, right from the beginning, when we settled in that land, it was a really strong ethic of growing your own food, you know, mat Matsi. So, you know, put life into yourself, you know, by what you do.
Speaker 2:And so gardening took hold, small-scale farms, like my mom had three cows, I think, at one time.
Speaker 2:We all milked, we had chickens and we had horses and pigs and big gardens. We had horses and pigs and big gardens and we knew how to preserve and keep those potatoes firm until May, june, you know, and then we'd plant them again. That was the way people lived up until 1960. Then social services stepped in and killed all of that. And so, you know, from the 60s, 70s and 80s they were the odd person that was, you know, still trying to do that, but it wasn't a way of life anymore. And so now we're beginning to realize. You know, with this orchard and the vegetables that we grow every summer and the hunting that goes on, you know there's a revival of hunting among the young people, and it's not just the men, it's the women as well. You know, teaching the young women how to be respectful Cree hunters. The attitude towards Matsisoen is to emerge, you know, as a way of thinking, and if we can maintain it, I have a real positive feeling that a lot of good is going to come out of these initial projects.
Speaker 1:You know that first apple tree that the kids planted I just I love hearing about the food forest on Muskeg Lake and how it started and how it's evolved, and just the community involvement. And then how do we, you know, make sure that the food that we're growing actually is preserved for consumption down the road, and all of these skills that need to be learned in response to it, right? So, when it comes to the worldview a Cree worldview in food production, you know like the landscape has been altered so dramatically over the last hundred years that we don't have the habitats that we used to. When it comes to our own Indigenous food systems, when it comes to our own Indigenous food systems, do you have a sense that, in fusing farming and building relationships with the farming community, and sharing these worldviews on how to live in relationship with all the different aspects will have a positive impact? That there is a desire to learn to do things in a different way?
Speaker 2:I think so. I was at a strategy meeting here on self-government and the lands people were talking. The first time I hear lands people saying you know, when the lease is done, maybe we can look at how we're using this land. Maybe there's a better way than just leasing it to some farmer who is going to make a pile of money. Give us our little share. Maybe there is a way for us to. And I think that thinking is growing and I really think that the next generation of young leaders in our community have a very different idea, because the current, like my generation, were impacted by the farming practices of our neighbors when they got combines. We got combines.
Speaker 2:There was no really creative process occurring inside the community to take a look at. Is this the best way? Cutting all those Saskatoon bushes? Is that the best thing we should be doing? You know that, asking those types of questions, but now those questions are being asked. You know how much can we get from those Saskatoon bushes in the pasture, you know? And if we treat them properly, how will they impact us as a food source?
Speaker 1:It just reminds me so much of that teaching that when we look after the land, it looks after us or when we look after the animals, they look after us, and with the plant nations and all of those relationships.
Speaker 1:I feel encouraged too with the discussions that I've had with people on this podcast, with people in kind of the health and wellness community that are really interested in food practices, food production practices and the impact on healthy ecosystems. I do feel encouraged. Yet it is all happening within Treaty 4 and Treaty 6 territories where every day I drive by and I see these vast areas that are completely at odds with that worldview. So it does help to have these conversations and to see you know the pockets of people that are planting trees and making plans for the future and how we can move forward with this.
Speaker 2:And you know it really does make a difference when you work with the children. I'm a teacher, so you know I've had some really positive experiences with children and it really does make a difference when you take the children out and you sit them down on the ground and you talk about the land and how it feels and what it gives and how they need to acknowledge and acknowledge it in a concrete way, you know, learning how to offer gifts to that land. The impact I've seen a difference. I think that's part of why we're facing a different attitude with the lands, people, because these are the people that were children when we first took over the elementary school in our community and we changed tone of the instruction, you know, to make them aware that they're Cree people and I, being a Cree person, meant you need to know how you fit and how the land takes care of you. Part of that was part of the curriculum, has been ever since.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. That's such a good example of how, when we understand who we are and our teachings and then when we make decisions for our community and for the lands, it's infused with that and to go against what conventionally is happening all around us off-reserve and in neighboring communities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think since the late 1970s, as part of our healing process, the resurgence or the revival of Cree ceremonies. Those Cree ceremonies are so connected to the land. You know when you have a pipe ceremony, sitting on the grass is so much more connecting to the pulse of that land. You know you can't avoid it. It touches you and impacts you as you sit there that prayer takes on a different tone altogether.
Speaker 1:Harry, thank you so much for sharing all of these stories and anecdotes and teachings and experiences with us. Is there something that you'd really like to get across? As far as you know, building these relationships, building bridges and trying to halt some of the more harmful practices that are impacting our lands.
Speaker 2:You know, what I really desire for is for our neighbors to feel a sense of security that we mean them no harm. We want to be good neighbors. I've been practicing that personally. Just you know my own way of doing things, by inviting groups onto the reserve and just taking them around and introducing them and letting them see Muskeg is a good place, we're good people and we're smart, we know lots of stuff. Deal with that sense of fear that our neighbors have of us and then we can talk that our neighbors have of us.
Speaker 2:And then we can talk. You know, once we can start talking, then there's no holding us back from finding a way to live together.
Speaker 1:Oh, I couldn't agree more with that. I have a friend who has a lot of concerns and lives on a farm and, you know, invited the local MLA out to walk the coulee and just have a conversation. They were completely at odds politically with decisions that were being made that impact the land and it's so easy to just lash out or just not attempt those conversations because you're so far on the spectrum. But she invited him and they went for a walk and they didn't. You know, they don't see eye to eye, but it was again about being human to human, walking the land, having a conversation, trying to understand each other's worldview, point of view, try to see where there is some space for even just dialogue, even just respectful dialogue on issues in which they disagree. And I do think it's important that we practice those skills as well, right when we're talking, because people are threatened with their livelihood and it's real concerns.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we always make a treaty day. Treaty day is we always invite our neighbors to come and be part of treaty day and we treat them like real special guests. Invite our neighbors to come and be part of Treaty Day and we treat them like real special guests. You know, and some of them you can just see their nervous twitch, but usually by the end of the day you know they've realized. You know, what am I afraid of? There's nothing.
Speaker 1:These are people that want to be friends.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly you just have to keep plugging away at that thinking. Confrontation, anger don't usually lead to dialogue.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Well, I think this is such a fitting conversation for our podcast. It's called bridging relations and and we're really looking to, um, yeah, how can we, how can we find some common ground? How can we have these discussions, um, that are different ways of of existing and being on the land and food production, and um, there's so many interesting people that we've talked to that have different perspectives, and so the conversations have. I've learned so much, and I've learned so much from you today, harry. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you feel is important to share?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so. I think this has been a good conversation and I want to thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, harry, and I just wanted to end by um, really acknowledging your the saskatoon berry bushes, uh, that you brought up and how, and you said like, uh, we didn't know we were poor because we were rich in berries and I'm finding now.
Speaker 1:Uh, because of everything we've talked about, I do a lot of food gathering, as much as I can, uh with with where I'm at in my knowledge journey. But Saskatoon's, you know, aren't always easy, or somebody's you know been to the bush before I've gotten there, and so they're not. I'm not always getting them when I want, and that's the thing. When you're not growing, you know, or cultivating them when you're gathering in the wild. There's all of these different variables and wild Saskatoon's are my absolute favorite food and I didn't get out this past summer to collect my own, and a friend of mine dropped off six large bags of wild Saskatoons as a gift and that was the richest, most valued gift that.
Speaker 1:I've received in a long time, and every time I take a bag of that frozen Saskatoon bag out of my freezer for, you know, my breakfast or whatever I always think of that person and I just have such gratitude. But so I I really resonate with the richness in berries.
Speaker 2:You know, we're supposed to be the sharing culture.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So we tease the old ladies back home? Yeah, we tell them. When we ask you where the berries are, where are the raspberries, and all you do is you kind of twitch your nose in a direction, right, I?
Speaker 1:know, twitch their nose. They don't even point their lips because they don't want to be too specific.
Speaker 2:No, not even the lips Right. I know Over there somewhere.
Speaker 1:It's funny, I love our people that way Over there somewhere. It's funny, I love our people that way. Harry, thank you so much for sharing and for being with me this afternoon to have this conversation. I really enjoyed it and all that you had to share.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and keep doing the good work. That's very important.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, same to you, thank you, take care.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Same to you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Take care. This is the Bridging Relations Podcast. Thank you for listening. Looking forward to connecting with you next time. Funding for this project has been provided by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada through the Agricultural Climate Solutions Living Labs Program.