Bridging Relations Podcast
Hello and Welcome to the Bridging Relations Podcast. We're bringing you stories from the first and only Indigenous-led Living Lab in Canada.
This Living Lab is a collaboration of producers, scientists, and Indigenous land managers, working together to develop and test innovative solutions in real-world conditions to improve the environmental impact of current farming practices.
Here we're exploring diverse perspectives, stories, and experiences, to better understand one another and to enhance agricultural practices for healthy land, water, and sky that support all of our relations now and in the future.
Additionally, we delve into Indigenous-led regenerative agriculture and land management, sharing insights from Indigenous and non-Indigenous producers, consumers, scientists, land managers, community members, and youth on the prairies.
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The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Bridging Relations Podcast
From Farm Field to Food Forest: Muskeg Lake's Food Forest Journey | S1 Ep. 6
Discover how a visionary initiative in Muskeg Lake Cree Nation is redefining food security and community resilience. Join Steve Wigg as he shares the inspiring journey of turning farmland into a thriving food forest that blends Indigenous wisdom with contemporary science. This lush ecosystem produces abundant food, serves as a community hub, and offers invaluable lessons in sustainability, traditional knowledge, and climate adaptation.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast. I'm your host, michelle Brass. Here we dive into diverse perspectives on agriculture and land management, blending Western science and farmer expertise with Indigenous knowledge and wisdom. Together, we can address challenges and opportunities that enhance agricultural practices to support healthy land, water and sky for future generations. Thank you for joining us on this journey. On today's episode, we're going to be learning about the Muskeg Lake Cree Nation's food forest. We'll learn more about how it started, some of the challenges faced along the way and what others can learn from their experience. Steve Wigg is a Food Security and Climate Change Adaptation Manager for Muskeg Lake Cree Nation. He's been working for the community since 2017, and he took the lead role in creating the food forest. He's also the Muskeg Lake coordinator for Bridge to Land, water, sky, hi.
Speaker 2:Steve, welcome to the show. Thanks, Michelle, good to be here. So what is a food forest? Food forest is the idea of trying to integrate more food into how a forest naturally grows. So instead of having rows of single species trees or shrubs producing fruit, you would integrate it with more layers and more biodiversity, so you might have a ground cover layer, even some roots, vines climbing up the trees, different shrubs and even canopy trees, and you might have more biodiversity in warmer climates. So ours here consists mostly of apples for the canopy and some pears we plan to put in, and we have cherries for the shrubs, hascaps, blueberries, saskatoons, and then we have grapes growing up the fences and around our gazebos and different root crops. We're trying to get integrated as well. So, yeah, trying to get all the different layers that a natural forest would have.
Speaker 1:Oh wow. So why did Muskeg Lake want to create a food forest in their community?
Speaker 2:Well, canadian Feed the Children was actually funding with some money for food security. Glenna Cayenne is a resident from Muskeg Lake. She was coordinating three different First Nation communities on food security and then they had a one-week-long training program and I was brought in to talk about food forests and permaculture, talk about food forests and permaculture, and by the end of it Glenna said I want that let's do something long term that'll last, not just short cooking classes and things like that. Let's make something that'll last into the future. And so we went ahead with it. We did a bit of a design, got some input from the community and what kind of things to add into it, because it doesn't have to be just food productions who also became a kind of a community space vision to reconnect people to the land. As Harry LaFond likes to say and it is really true Get the kids out of the classroom into another space. Yeah, reconnecting with the earth.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's awesome. I love that and it fits really well with one of the goals for Bridge to Land Water Sky, which is increasing food security and sovereignty in local communities. Why do you think that that is such an important issue today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're in the breadbasket of the world and you could say we were food secure a handful of decades ago and then somehow now we're not. And the pandemic really highlighted a lot of, I guess, weaknesses in our global supply chains and the awareness is kind of resurfacing that, yes, we can still grow a lot of commodity crops, we can still have a large agriculture industry, but why not dedicate some of the land and some of our resources to creating food security closer to home, kind of bringing back some of the ways we use to do things, but maybe with a bit more, bit more science and awareness of caring for the earth, combined with local food production, which also fits with the Cree culture of. You know we are one with the earth, the soil, all the animals. We're all kind of family, so we should take care of each other and, yeah, this kind of fits into that works really well. So if we have thousands of acres of land, what's a few acres to provide food for the community and become less reliant on the outside sources?
Speaker 1:Well and I imagine it fits in well with your role as climate change adaptation coordinator as well with looking at the changes that we're seeing when it comes to the lands, the waters, food production.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the climate change coordinator kind of grew out of the food security, because so much of the funding is really tied together in a lot of the avenues, especially even bridges into health, and it's kind of all over the place. Now, as we realize, it will impact every bit of our life and food is a part of every aspect of our life, so it all really is interconnected.
Speaker 1:So when you were talking to Muskeg Lake about this and you told me about Glenacan from Canadian Feed the Children about this project, was it difficult to get the idea going or was this quite smooth? There's a lot of communities that might look at different projects food sovereignty projects and sometimes not everyone's always on board. What was it like in this particular scenario?
Speaker 2:Yeah, muskeg Lake, I mean the leadership overall has been extremely supportive of the idea. They see the importance of it and I think it was really helpful, like our first planting day. We had like four different schools show up and it was like quite a great community event and that was. I mean, if the goal itself was strictly food alone, there might be a more practical approach at least for, like, immediate food. But this is a long-term commitment. So it's been nice to see, even going through elections and still the commitment to keep it going has remained, because they see the growth. Yeah, and it did take some time. You know, the first year it used to be a farm field, so keeping the weeds down and then it just looked like a bunch of little sticks coming out of the ground, you know, a foot or two feet tall. It did take a few years for it to kind of soak into people's minds what the actual potential is going to be.
Speaker 1:Well, tell us how it started then. How does one start a food forest?
Speaker 2:Well, it definitely depends on where you live. So, speaking from the Aspen Parkland transition zone, we're kind of just about into the boreal but we're also a bit above the prairie, so it is kind of applicable to a lot of areas in Saskatchewan. But definitely observe the land first. Try to find out what it was used for in the past, if it had been farmed on. Converting farmland like marginal farmland would be a really good option. If you're going into more natural land, then of course you got to consider more of the wild competition, the friends that are going to be going after your nice little trees you plant. So, yeah, just knowing the land and the features of the land, what kind of wildlife you'll have to protect your trees from the kind of conditions. Sometimes we get really really cold, windy winters here and not all trees really want to be out in the middle of the cold, windy prairies all winter long. So, yeah, just knowing the land, knowing the history, finding out the soil type, because depending on the soil might influence what kind of trees you plant or at least how you plant them, the kind of watering needs you'll need over time, and then, yeah, weeds of course, like ours was on an old farm field. So as soon as those herbicides stop getting applied, there's, you know, generations of seeds waiting to emerge, so you got to have a plan to deal with them.
Speaker 2:If you're going organic, and even if you're not, I mean they're going to come back eventually, unless you want to keep applying. So ground cover figuring out a ground cover is something I wish we would have done sooner on, but once we got that established, it took a couple years because we started in a really dry year, I think 2020 or 21. But once that got established, it choked out pretty much all the weeds, so we just have the odd thistle coming up here and there, but that made it a lot more comfortable to work and bring people in when they're not getting stabbed by thistles all the time. And start small would be another one. Like, you can always expand but start small, especially if you don't know what kind of funding you're working with or the human capacity you have. Like it's great to have the biggest vision and all these ideas, but just make sure you got the people that can really make it happen and the funding today for them.
Speaker 1:Well and tell us about the funding. So, for those who are interested or hearing this and think it would be great for their community, tell us about the funding process and how that worked for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, canadian Feed the Children has been the main supporter before I came and I started 2017. So they've been a really reliable source and it doesn't cover anything by any means, but it definitely gets us like our main supplies that we need, helps us run a few events and can, with subsidies from agriculture, agri-food, canada, it'll help cover some staff as well. But those subsidies from aafc uh, really important. Yes, youth employment skills program you can only use them for one year because the idea is you give them agriculture experience and they move on to do more, which is also nice. We've had two of our employees move on to study agriculture or land management.
Speaker 2:Then there's other, yeah, funding from the federal government. But I really do encourage, if any nation takes it on, to commit some form of steady funding to make sure that the staff can do the work and keep things going without stressing about the next source, because that's very hard to develop. There's so many avenues and so many ways to go and you need consistency. You can't wait for the funds to come in when your planting dates are very specific and harvests are very specific. So I do encourage any nation if anyone's listening that at least dedicate some funds for consistent staff at the very least Once things get going, the initial planting it's not a lot of financial input to just keep things sustained. But then, once you get a lot of produce, you're going to need storage and processing. So that's something you have to consider for five to 10 years down the line where you're actually going to deal with all this food, how you're going to process it.
Speaker 1:Right, so tell me a bit about starting it. You said like in the first year it was just a few. You know it looked like a few sticks in the ground. How much planning went into? Was it planned out ahead of time or once you got the funding in place, kind of like, saw how much you had and then planted and pivoted? Tell me a bit about how much like was planned out ahead of time, before planting.
Speaker 2:There was a reasonable amount of planning done ahead of time. However, the field was just converted. So the year before, like when I was first on site, it wasn't farmed and I, literally, one time I came, the weeds were like up to my chest. It was pretty incredible. So it was like, yes, I could go there, yes, I could stick the shovel in the ground and you know, see that there was different kinds of soil and I was able to talk to some of the like, the previous farmer of the site and some people that knew some of the history, so that did help.
Speaker 2:So then, once we got it cleaned down, I spent some time trying to consider the slope and different aspects of it, but in reality the funding determined the trees we got, and the trees were all purchased from a local nursery that was closing down that year. So what we put in was, you know, what we got for the money. So, yes, some planning and yes, like, considerations of sunlight and aspect, because you don't want to crowd trees too much, but not as much as I would have liked, for sure, but it's all working out right?
Speaker 1:that's why I ask, because it's, it seems, like one of those projects where you plan as much as you can, but then things come up and you adapt as you go.
Speaker 2:For sure, and I mean not knowing like the long term desires of the community in the space. Those kind of evolved too, because maybe no one's ever had a space like that where you integrate like a living park that's also food producing, with community events. So how do you, you know, keep the quality control of the food while still having kids run around and play games and come out for school groups? If I could say anything in the end like it is great, I think it's perfect what we've done, but it will cause challenges down the line for like selling produce, like quality control measures, because it's so integrated.
Speaker 1:Right, and tell me about that. Like the vision for the community, it wasn't just planting just for food production. It sounds like there was a lot to do with relationships to the land a place to gather children running amongst the food forest? Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's been like some of the best successes really. The trees have survived for the most part, we haven't had much kill. And then the students coming in. We try to integrate with our local school which is grade 1 to 7, as much as possible. The kids come in the spring to help with the seeding and then the fall to help with harvest. And then we work with other programming through prevention department, boys' group, girls' group, things like like that and get them out as much as possible. And then community events we've had we host our own. We try to do a spring and a fall one at least, and then other departments or groups in the community will use it. Like we have barbecue and like an outdoor kitchen space there in a gazebo. So they're just last year they started to and I loved it. I got the call. Like Steve, we just want to have Father's Day barbecue in the food forest. I'm like, go for it.
Speaker 1:Oh, wonderful.
Speaker 2:It's not just on us now. Others are starting to realize they can use the space, and that is a wonderful thing. But there is, I guess, another safety concern just how public can you make it and how can you keep? You know, it's just like any park, any system there's risks of things happening. So that's a learning curve as we develop too. Do we keep it open during the day or do we lock it at night? But we want it to be a public space, and that would be different for every community and where it's located.
Speaker 1:Right, so, and I imagine that's evolving over time since the beginning. So what makes a food forest different from, say, just just a garden like? Just like you said you talked a bit about at the very beginning? It's more than just a row of of trees or items that you plant. It sounds like there's a very purposeful kind of relationship building, or you're trying to, are you trying to, mimic, like the ecosystem of an actual forest that naturally grows? Explain that a bit more that would be the ideal.
Speaker 2:Um, it is a bit more challenging in our zone or our uh environment versus, like I first got introduced to permaculture in the tropics. There's a lot more layers, a lot more faster growth. So, um, there is comparisons. But, like you couldn't grow a really thriving apple tree in the middle of a really dense forest, it might not get enough sunlight, so you do have to make some changes, I guess, to what a natural ecosystem would look like, but the goals would still be similar, like you're trying to get as much biodiversity as possible, because a pest might be a pest, but it's also a food to something else that's beneficial. And if you can facilitate the natural balance, then you shouldn't need to apply all kinds of herbicides and pesticides, and then that's also, I guess, the fertilizer. Like the natural cycling of nutrients. You know, trees drop their leaves, animals drop their droppings and there's cycles that happen in nature that allow for the nutrients to be taken in by the plants.
Speaker 2:And actually that is one point to consider is, sometimes these systems are not as tidy as some would like or what they expect from a park, and so that is a bit of a learning curve, like we grow the ground cover, but it's to. It's to suppress the weeds, but it's also to fertilize, like there's clover in. So they're adding nitrogen to the soil but we don't want to chop it down right away. There's all these pollinators, so we're letting it grow big and it's not the nicest to walk on in a park kind of setting. So there is a bit of a balance between creating more of a natural system and one that people can run around and enjoy with their bare feet. Treating the soil really well is one of the main features of it protecting that soil, not tilling it up like in a garden, exposing it to the sun and the erosion, but trying to protect it and encourage life in the soil as much as possible.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's been a theme from a lot of the guests that we've talked to on this podcast already is the importance of soil and that relationship and how to build healthy soil and all the components that go into that right. It's more than just one thing. It's many different relationships and really building the right environment, which depends on your local environment.
Speaker 2:That's what's fun. Like I'm not Cree, I'm settler descendant. But when I first was told or taught the term, like Wakotuin and that kinship with everything and how it goes beyond human to human or family, like that's just that's kind of what I took out of learning permaculture in a way, was that relationship and everything has a role together and functions as a role together and functions. It's not necessarily competition. It might be well you compete with your little brother for more cookies, but you're still supporting each other. It's still part of the family, right.
Speaker 1:Well, Steve, tell me a little bit about how you came into this work. You've mentioned permaculture and some of your other experiences. What brought you here and where does your passion come from?
Speaker 2:Well, I grew up with a family of travelers and they encouraged my parents, encouraged us to go travel and discover ourselves before we committed to some kind of profession or study.
Speaker 2:And then I was always looking for volunteer opportunities but none of it really made sense until I discovered that word, permaculture, and then I added that on to searching for things and then I discovered all these different projects around the world just trying to make more sense of how we live on the land and live with the land, and so much of that is rooted in indigenous ways of being and living with the land. So it kind of naturally brought me to learn from different indigenous cultures, like in Vietnam and Thailand and then over in Kenya, and I'd always thought if I returned to Canada it would be great, if I could, you know, somehow work with First Nations there. I wasn't very connected growing up, had a little bit of a connection with some of my mom's friends, but not too much. So then when I came back I started my little landscaping company and just got called out to Muskeg and everything fell into place a lot quicker than I would imagine.
Speaker 1:And you've been there since 2017. And that relationship seems to be going well. Is this something that you know? Like? You're starting projects that are long term. Like you said with this food forest, it's not just a one or two year project. It's something that you're laying the foundation for for years to come. What are your hopes?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, when I came, I guess it was the same as working internationally. The hope was to work myself out of a job and kind of build capacity up locally, Not to say that I would want to leave. It's a project for the community by the community, so I don't envision that I would necessarily be the one forever. And we did, just as of last year, found a really amazing food security coordinator who's a mother here within the community and has experienced permaculture but also other skills that come in handy when running a department, like computer skills and spreadsheets and all that. So very excited to see how that's going to go.
Speaker 2:And it allows me to branch into more of the kind of climate change work, because that's so broad, even just from an economic development standpoint, like what kind of businesses and economies are going to be sky comes in, because it is. It is about agriculture, about growing food, but also, like our land lease agreements, because most of our land is leased out by farmers from off the reserve. So what kind of controls can we put in place if we learn all this information from the bridge to land, water, sky, about how we can not necessarily farm all the marginal lands, increase biodiversity, increase habitat for wild meat which is food security, increase wild berry production, which is food security, and Still, you know, generate revenue from the farms, protect the waters more? That kind of that kind of realm really interests me, so that's kind of where I'm hoping to branch into. Kind of realm really interests me, so that's kind of where I'm hoping to branch into. Maybe we can start growing the materials to build our own homes, store the carbon in our houses, things like that.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well, there's so much potential, right? It's so many challenges and how we address them. Tell me a bit about how the food forest fits into the bigger picture when it comes to Indigenous food security for Muskeg Lake. You know climate change will impact food security, food sovereignty, for many of our communities. How does this fit into that bigger picture?
Speaker 2:For one. I guess it is just like a hub where there'll be a lot of food produced. Like I did, a low estimate if our apple trees survive, I think we'll be having 20 tons of apples coming out of there. So there is just a lot of food that will be grown there. As with the expansion of agriculture over the past while I imagine it's similar in many First Nations More agriculture means less traditional food sources. So I guess in a way we're making up for what has been destroyed.
Speaker 2:If there's less fruit in nature, then we can try to put it in a place where we can actually guarantee we can invest it and make sure it grows, Whereas if it's out wild we might not have as much influence based on if the climate changes too much or too much drought or some other impacts. So it is kind of a base. Then again, that reconnection to land like there's been. There's been some policies put in place on indigenous people, from the indian act to residential schools, and that have kind of taken some of that traditional knowledge from being commonplace to not as commonplace. So a place like the food forest and this department can kind of help get, like harry says, help reconnect people with the land and rebuild those uh pastimes that allowed for resilience and a connection with the land. And rebuild those past times that allowed for resilience and a connection with the land and being with your family, being outside, getting off the screen. You know it's all tied into wellness. Maybe it might not sound so fun tending the garden but you know we hope to make it more enjoyable and something people actually want to get back into Right.
Speaker 2:Momentum is growing. We're getting more and more requests to start gardens at home and help out at the food forest. People want to learn. Families want to learn Right.
Speaker 1:Well, when you talk about health and wellness, it's just one of those things.
Speaker 1:When you're growing your own food or you're gathering your own food, it's not just that the food has those nutrients in them, but it's in the act of gathering them that creates that wellness as well.
Speaker 1:It's not just vitamins and minerals, although that's important, you know, it's that community connection. It's the soil again, getting that under your fingernails and getting your hands in the dirt. It's the satisfaction of growing something local and being able to see it through its whole cycle, you know, and appreciating even our teachings when it comes to the plant nations and our animal relatives and how we're all so interdependent. And so I love hearing about this project and the work of the food forest, but also the larger work of Bridge to Land, Water, Sky, because it taps into so many of these interconnected issues that are so important today. So I just love hearing about this everything that you've shared with us. So I just love hearing about this everything that you've shared with us. I do want to go back a little bit to the food forest, specifically about some of the challenges. You did address a lot of them, but are there any specific challenges that you had to overcome over the last several years in establishing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the biggest challenge is the ability to plan long term and realizing that the most successful way to implement food security is by working with so many different departments and programs. And it's just a challenge Like there's a lot of avenues for funding through the health department and a lot of great work like prenatal care, diabetes. You know there's just so many good ways that you could apply food to help, but it's just, it's a lot of organization. It's not just being out there growing the food. Another big, big one would be processing, storage, distribution. Even though we have a relatively small community, it's like how do you get the news out there, what's ready when it's ready, and if you don't have enough for everyone, then how does it? You know, how do you fairly distribute? That's been a really big challenge.
Speaker 1:And how much? How much food are you producing? You mentioned, you know, 20 tons of apples and you mentioned a variety of different fruits and foods that you're growing. Is that increasing year over year? How much are you seeing, and is it something that can feed the community to a certain extent?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fruit is finally starting to produce. Two years ago we had like 130 pounds of apples, and then last year wasn't as much, which is fine. Sometimes they take a break and then this year we got around 200 or 300 pounds. I can't remember that, I don't actually have the numbers in front of me. But cherries we got our first big harvest this year. Grapes our first big harvest this year, so it was really exciting. Plants that take a while to get stable and you should not harvest all your fruit once you first plant them. That's a tip for people out there. You want to let their energy go into the roots. So even though you get excited those first years when the apples come off, you should pick them off when they're young, so the tree puts its energy into the roots and not into the fruit before it's ready I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:That is a really good point. I can imagine how exciting it would be. We left a couple.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna lie it was nice to see those apples hanging off the tree. But, um, our vegetable gardens, we've kind of shuffled around locations for them and we never really had a big enough area to get really close to food security. So we kind of used our vegetable produce in different ways, like through the school or through I'll actually a lot have gone to funerals to help with their meals for their families when they come for wakes and just different community programming, some little deliveries to elders. But we've never, yeah, had a huge enough area. I mean a couple thousand pounds of potatoes, a few hundred pounds of carrots, that kind of yield. But where we've got plans to expand, we finally nailed down a larger field that we can move into. So we're gonna work on fixing up that soil, because it was another farm field before, and then move into there and get a whole bunch more production going right, I guess we've also started some indoor growing.
Speaker 2:We have aeroponics system. Now we're just getting started with a thousand plants indoors that'll go 365 days a year, so that's pretty exciting wow, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:And then you'll have all of this experience now and knowledge to apply as you expand the food forest and get that plot of land ready. I imagine.
Speaker 2:And then Shayla having that full-time position throughout the year. This will be the first time having that full-time support.
Speaker 1:One thing I was curious about. You mentioned about preserving and storage of food and sharing the amounts that you are growing in the food forest when you're distributing it, what's happening right now? When it comes time to harvest, is most of it being distributed or is there a combination of distribution plus preserving longer term?
Speaker 2:Combination yeah, we have some community events in the fall, so when we know there's a bunch of people coming out we can get rid of a lot of potatoes and things like that. Or when we have the elders' meetings, we'll maybe try to put some of the fresh peas or beans on the table. And what we can't get rid of right away, we would process, freeze, do something like that. So we still have a lot of like apples and rhubarb and different frozen fruit to make pies and different desserts. But yeah, it's getting these again. So all these different groups, they might do baking. Do they know we've got these apples there? How do we keep this communication up with all the different organizations or little groups around muskeg lake.
Speaker 1:Right, you must be tired and busy. It sounds like there's a lot of work with like, the planning, the planting, um you know, the tending to it, the harvesting, preserving, plus connecting with different department areas, community members and leadership to coordinate all of this. It's a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess it's kind of new for everyone too Like there's no one I could just ask and say how should we do this Right? We're kind of developing it as we go, so yeah it can be a lot. And then when you're trying to get funding from different avenues too. So my job is expanded as you find oh a tree planting grant, oh a wildfire proposal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yes is there anything that you wish you had known, um, before starting?
Speaker 2:that would have made a difference yeah, again the kind of the a bit more work or focus on the long-term goals, like even like that one, two, five, ten years, so you actually a little more of like concrete actions to work towards, that would be. That would have been nice from the start. We're still getting there and I recognize how it's not easy, especially if you say, hey, we're gonna have 20 tons of apples, we need a building for it so, and they don't have one. You know it's not easy, especially if you say, hey, we're gonna have 20 tons of apples, we need a building for it so, and they don't have one.
Speaker 2:You know it's uh right so yeah, surprise, yeah right um a bit more on, like the local diets and what people necessarily want to eat all the time can grow all the food, but if there's not necessarily a demand for that kind of food then it's harder to get into people's bellies and coming in. I guess I'm not Indigenous. I'd never worked for a First Nation, so for me I was kind of learning the structure of the band and all these different departments and avenues as I was going along, so having clearer. But I recognize it's fluid and so much is based on funding and things change all the as well. So wonderful.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a lot, it's a, it's a huge challenge, and you've shared a lot of the challenges. What are what are the successes? What are the things you're most proud of or that you celebrate the most? With a food forest.
Speaker 2:A lot is to do with just the awareness of it. Like we had 300 students come through visiting and some of them did work, some just came for tours, some helped us make compost, some looked at soil pits and learned about soil, some learned about water life in the water. So that outreach to different, not just our community but surrounding communities and bringing in non-Indigenous kids that have never been on a reserve is pretty wonderful. Non-indigenous kids that have never been on a reserve is pretty wonderful, integrating these two worlds that live right next to each other but in the past sometimes not been so integrated. So that's really nice. And then collaborations like with University of Saskatchewan and SAS Polytechnic and Redberry Lake and all these different NGOs and nonprofits getting their support in these different events we have or different ideas about how we can expand into the future.
Speaker 2:It's all really exciting. It kind of feels like groundbreaking stuff, even though it's also kind of back to basics at the same time. But going to these different conferences, meeting other communities, I'm getting to know all the other nations around and their people. They have doing similar work and we have a tight little team of planning together, getting to know all the other nations around and their people. They have doing similar work and we have a little tight little team of planning together and seeing what other nations are trying out this year.
Speaker 1:That's really nice to see the the momentum spreading around further too and are you noticing a growing um kind of awareness and interest and movement towards becoming food sovereign, to to thinking about food security and these types of projects for communities?
Speaker 2:definitely, definitely, yes. I think just the hard thing is that balance of like people were food secure by hard work in the past. So to create something that's just the nation growing a bunch of food it's like that's just the nation growing a bunch of food that's not the direction. So how do you encourage community engagement and get people excited about it and enjoying it and having fun with it, connecting over it, that kind of rejuvenation that many from an older generation would remember from the past, and I think that's a big, big part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that whole community's. What Muskeg Lake has is that there is a vision there that there is a desire to see this fit into larger food security initiatives and you've got the work of Bridge to Land Water Sky as well, and it fits into that goal of food sovereignty. It sounds like that would be a necessary component in order to successfully establish a food forest or a similar type project in a community.
Speaker 2:And, like the hunters, don't have to come and pick the fruit. They can, you know, give us the meat for the meal too right. So, there's a role for everyone. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the best is when you can do barters and exchanges. You know a roast for some honey, or a bag of berries, or you know whatever it is.
Speaker 2:People are growing we have had communities like from further north come down to visit and ask about starting food for us there and I I didn't say no, you shouldn't, but I said it might be more difficult, you might have slower growth, you might have lower yields, but hey, you guys have lots of fish and we might have way too many apples. Maybe you know there's, yeah, barters trades, yeah.
Speaker 1:And those relationships again right, and I mean and that goes back to a lot of our old, like trade relationships, when you look at Indigenous history and communities, how we would have an abundance of one and go and trade with other nations for what they were abundant in and that what we didn't have. And it seems like through this work there is a resurgence of that, or at least thinking along those lines, if you have a lot of fish. We have a lot of apples. Let's build this trade relationship.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe we might have a food truck going around the powwow circuit in a few years.
Speaker 1:That would be wonderful. That would be wonderful. I think there's a lot of people wanting more, you know, healthy options there as well.
Speaker 2:Right, there is, yeah.
Speaker 1:For sure. Is there any advice, Steve, you would give to people and communities that are thinking of starting a food forest that they could learn from your?
Speaker 2:project at Muskeg Lake. I mean you've given a lot already, but I would say, come and see it. We're trying to think of ways to create tour days or field days for communities to come see, because there's just so much as you walk around there's so many little tidbits. One of the biggest challenges if you're planning to start it you've got creeping grasses like brome grass. That would make for a very challenging site to start a food forest on. So if you could avoid that, I'd really recommend it. We even brought some in, just with some wood chips we got for mulch, and there was roots in there and it's oh no, oh no, yeah, uh, yeah, trying to tame those weeds, getting a ground cover going, it's kind of like.
Speaker 2:So if there's like a healthy well, even if you're not sure of all the ground cover mixes, but just imagine a nice healthy, long growing everywhere then when you want to cut it out, put in a garden, it's pretty easy. You just kind of remove it and start plant your tree or plant your garden, whereas if it's a whole bunch of weeds and a whole bunch of invasive kind of plants and you're just trying to do your thing in there, they're gonna win. Um hands down, they're gonna win. So kind of. I don't like the word tame, but trying to tame the land a little bit before you get so motivated to plant. It's a lot easier to maintain and manage an open field than it is with a whole bunch of trees scattered around it. So if it means delaying the planting by a year, spending a whole year to work on that land and that soil first could be really worth it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for all of this. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you feel is important or that you'd like to share?
Speaker 2:I'd like you to talk to our new coordinator, Shaylin McKay, for the next interview, because this has kind of been about the past and how we got there, but I'm really excited to see where she takes this program well, there's so much potential here.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to speak with her as well, so that'd be fantastic. Thank you so much for everything you've shared here, uh, this afternoon, and uh, for everything that, um, you know all the the wins and the challenges, um, and the vision. Uh, I appreciate everything you've shared with us today.
Speaker 2:For sure it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Steve.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:This is the Bridging Relations podcast. Thank you for listening. Looking forward to connecting with you next time. Funding for this project has been provided by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada through the Agricultural Climate Solutions Living Labs program.