S2E1 | When Soil Starts Working Again: The Power of Cover Crops

Kerry, a Saskatchewan agronomist north of Saskatoon, explains why cover crops are not just a conservation trend but a practical tool for profitability, water management, and long term soil health, from small scale observations to full field impact.

We dig into what cover crops are, how they differ from intercropping, and how keeping a living root in the soil can improve water infiltration, reduce weeds, and ease compaction. Kerry also breaks down what this looks like on farm, from companion crops like red clover to the realities of time, equipment, and return on investment.

The conversation touches on trust, skepticism, and the pressures farmers face, along with the bigger picture of building resilient systems that work with nature, not against it.

Hosted by: Michelle Brass 
Produced by: Maddie Gould

Note: Audio quality varies slightly in this episode, but the conversation is well worth the listen.

The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.

Hosted by: Michelle Brass 
Produced by: Maddie Gould

Transcript

Agronomists As Trusted Connectors

SPEAKER_02 0:59

We also talk about the role agronomists play as trusted advisors and connectors within the farming community. Here's my conversation with Kerry now.

Kerry’s Path Into Soil Health

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Well, Kerry, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you taking time to speak with us. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Thanks for having me here. I work as an agronomist in the Rostern area north of Saskatoon. And I after university I uh took environmental studies, worked in the egg industry, and I started my career in research, mostly with canola and flax breeding. Moved over to a different role after a few years into crop nutrition, also in a research role, and then uh transitioned towards a sales agronomist about six years ago. And during that time I had a role working with a company out of Ontario, and one of my jobs was to help producers, farm producers who wanted to convert from conventional farming to organic agriculture, and that was I was basically a door-to-door salesman for them. But in doing that, I took lots of uh workshops and on soil health and reduced input farming, and then that became super interested to me, and I've kind of uh focused my career on that, even as a sales agronomist now. That's one thing I try to do is to help farms dial down on inputs and basically improve their profitability through better use and healthier use of their land.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Wonderful. Well, is there anything right now that you are um discussing with growers and producers, farmers um that really has your interest?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Uh one well I guess I am always trying to help them reduce expenses and improve profits. And I focus on reducing fertilizers, reducing fungicides, particularly fungicides, but all pesticides, and not in that I want them to all stop using those things, but just using them more responsibly. Um and I do promote cover crops because I've seen a lot of benefit firsthand on those, so I try and sneak that into the conversation with as many farms as possible to try and get them to adopt it.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Okay.

What A Cover Crop Really Is

SPEAKER_02 3:30

For those who who don't know, can you tell us what a cover crop is?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Well a cover crop is uh basically something growing on a f on a farm field outside of the normal growing season. So in the fall or the spring, what's kind of some people refer to it as the shoulder season of the crop, just to have something growing on the land.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Okay. And and what are the benefits of that? Why is that something that you would promote?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Um there's countless benefits. I'll just go back to how I became interested myself in it. So when I was working for um the company where I was helping people convert to organic production and I was learning about cover crops, I took it to my garden to try and underst just to try and try it firsthand and see what to expect. And I cover cropped my whole garden so that the whole ground was covered, and I did that for about two years while I worked there. And I noticed really obvious changes. And in at the time it was like slow going with the season, I didn't really attribute it at all to the cover crops, but looking back as I kept going with it, I the cover cropping made a night and day difference. Um certain weeds disappeared out of my garden from that, and we had a torrential rain one summer. It was four inches of rain fell, and I walked in my garden with my bare feet that night and didn't get any muddy feet. And that was at the same time as I was started a new role as a sales agronomist, and I was traveling around to farms, visiting them, introducing myself, and just learning their farms. And I that was in the springtime at snowmelt. And I noticed as I drove into all of their yards how their gardens were all flooded. And then I thought back because my garden I had already seeded it already, and it was the soil was in perfect conditions, and it was the one difference was that my garden had been cover cropped the year prior, and theirs was rotatilled in the fall, and the water couldn't infiltrate. So it was really obvious how impactful a cover crop is just based on the garden and the field's no r not really any different, it's just a different scale.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

I mean, it so this is uh people can't see you know our faces right now, but when you said that you walked into your garden after that much rain and you didn't get your feet muddy, you know, you might my you know, my jaw dropped. I was like, what really? So um what's been the uh response or or how is this received

Garden Proof Of Better Infiltration

SPEAKER_02 6:04

when you bring this up as a as something to do?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

There's

Why Farmers Doubt Cover Crops

SPEAKER_00 6:07

always skepticism from a farm. It's an ex from a farm's perspective, it's an extra thing they have to do when they're already busy with their regular operation. So there is a lot of uh skepticism in it and basically stems from people not understanding what to expect because they want to see what's profitable. So I try to focus the conversation on improving their profitability. Um it has so many benefits for the soil and soil health. That's something to me that'll just fall into place, but I need to start the conversation by speaking about profitability with them because that's what they're dialed into hearing. Or reduce compaction. Basically focusing on a challenge they have on their farm, and if cover cropping can fit into there, then I use those two things, mainly compaction and profitability, to try and get them to start it. And the ones who have started are continuing to do so to some degree if that if it fits in their program.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

So how does it impact profitability?

Profitability Without Extra Passes

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Like in what way does a cover crop save farmers money?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Cover crop is I promote it uh there's two ways to s seed it. There's seeding it after they've harvested their main crop in the fall, or seeding it together with their crop in the spring as a as a spring seeded companion plant, and that's how I promote it. So it doesn't cut into their profitability in terms of excess time, excess equipment passes. So if the cover crop has a legume in it, so for example, red clover in spring wheat, then they can cut down on their nitrogen input because they've got clover growing that the wheat can scavenge some nitrogen. The clover is gonna fix nitrogen in the fall and the following spring possibly a little bit before it's terminated or sprayed out. So the profitability comes from the improved nitrogen um bank that the cover crop is gaining. Sometimes they don't use legumes. So one of the cover crops I often promote with farms because it's an easy one to add in, is to include a winter cereal uh seeded at a low rate with a spring cereal. There's no legume in there. They can't cut their fertilizer down or they they don't. Um it doesn't really save any money and it doesn't earn them any income because they're just but it's it's growing in the fall and for those ones the profitability is not um something they'll see dollars at the end of the day, but it's focused on improving water infiltration in the fall, trying to manage compaction that's already there. So in terms of the profitability, it's not really a number on a paper, but they can as the farmers are going and seeding, they're seeing their water infiltrate in the spring. They can see it with their own eyes, the improvement from it. And the reduced weed pressure. Usually when there's uh growth in the fall, there's far less weeds, and then they don't have to spray weeds in the fall, which a lot of farms feel that they need to.

Compaction Explained In Simple Terms

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Um I'm not a farmer, so can you just explain what compaction means when you're referring to that?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So compaction, it's basically a hard pan of soil underneath the surface soil. So the problem with it is it doesn't allow, if there's compaction, the water doesn't infiltrate in the field. So you'll get a heavy rain instead of soaking in, it'll be ponded in the furrows or it'll run off into the low spots. Um it also stops the roots, stops the moisture, and uh those are issues with growing a crop, especially with uh if there's a drought or dry weather patterns.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Right. Okay, thank you for that. I appreciate that. And I could um I can see absolutely why that's an issue. So tell me about um you're saying that uh cover crops also help build the soil health. Can you tell me a bit about how that occurs?

Living Roots And Soil Biology

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So that's through uh when I first learned about cover crops, I thought the only benefit was to reduce erosion. I thought the whole point was focused on erosion. And then I started to learn about the and it's talked a lot at uh different conferences and people speaking about it, but having a living root in the soil and having uh basically the microbiology kept active in the fall. And if you look at nature, there is something growing all times of the year outside of the coldest days of winter. So it's to mimic that, and nature is doing that for a reason. It's not in the best interest of the land to have it bare, so that's kind of uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Right. Well, and that's the thing, you know, the lot of the conversations that we've had here um on the bridge podcast is that um working with nature, or we talk a lot about like indifferent perspectives on you know land use and um going methods, and so uh that we're always working with it as opposed to against it, and and it just seems to make sense for many different reasons. So um you're talking about this. Um and and what kinds of results are you getting? I know you touched on it, but it but if you could expand a little bit on some of the results um some are getting from doing this.

Field Results And Nitrogen Credits

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So so all of the producers I work with, we're not doing trials. We're doing entire fields or entire sections of land. So they're not um all of the results are anecdotal. But an example this past year, there was a half section of land seeded and it had a winter cereal cover crop seeded on one quarter, and then the adjacent quarter did not have that. That quarter didn't have Canada thistle re growing in the fall. So the producer sprayed Canada thistle on the one side, they didn't have to spray it on the other. It's just the Canada thistle wasn't a lack of seeds of it, it just didn't grow. Um other examples are with the red clover, and that's for the nitrogen credit. So the producers have the option of reducing their nitrogen fertilizer in the spring. That one's kind of uh hard to kind of capture the amount of nitrogen produced because it's when you do a soil test, you're testing for soil nitrate and the clover roots in the fall, they don't have it in the nitrate form. So it's hard to measure the amount of nitrogen. But going from assumptions we're just typically producers will drop their nitrogen fertilizer by some amount, twenty, thirty, forty pounds of nitrogen per acre, assuming that the clover would have produced it.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

So um when you share this with others, um like how is that received?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Uh typically with skepticism. It is a s it is a struggle to get producers to try it. Um but I'm hopeful that the more that try it and keep going with it will continue to do so. Um just like me when I started with my garden and cover cropping it, and I used to have a weed called Porch Lacka or Purs Lane, and that weed disappeared. It to totally disappeared. I did not have a single purse lane weed after the year, you know, years of having Purs Lane or Porschlacca. And it was all the cover cropping, because there are challenges with cover cropping a garden too. It's not perfect either. So one year I took out my cover crop two years ago, and then last year I had person this porch lacka came back. So you can see examples of it, and I'm hopeful that when farms when they pull their cedars through and then when they see the rainfall, they will be able to tell firsthand the benefits it has. And I've no doubt that they will see that because a producer knows their land from farming it year after year, how it responds to rain, how it responds to dry weather patterns. And when they see the difference, when they're pulling their cedar through and they can feel the difference, it'll gain momentum.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

So how long have you been doing this? When did you do your cover crop for your garden and and how long have you been speaking about this?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

For uh probably about eight years ago is when I became and then m more so in the of recent years, but I started uh kind of my uh uh direction on promotion promoting cover crops about eight years ago.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Okay. And um and and how do you get the word out? So, you know, we're talking about what it is that, you know, uh your passion for this. Um how how are you getting the word out to people?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Um I'm trying to uh advance it locally in kind of in the area that I work with farms that I work with. And getting the word out, I'm doing I'm trying to do by just having demons not so much sign demonstrations, but just examples of fields where it's used and people are driving by raising questions about it.

Intercropping Versus Cover Cropping

SPEAKER_02 15:28

We've been talking a lot about cover cropping, but before we started our conversation here, uh we were talking about intercropping as well. So can you tell me a bit about that, what the difference is, what the definition of that is?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah. Intercropping and cover cropping are two different things. They're kind of some people in confuse one for the other, but intercropping is when you're growing two crops, marketable crops at the same time, harvesting them both for grain or seed, and then they don't have anything growing in the shoulder season in the fall or the spring. So an example would be peola or peas and canola. If a farm plants peas and canola, those have benefits in doing that because they can cut down their nitrogen fertilizer, but they're cutting that all in August or late August, September, and there's nothing growing in the fall as a cover crop. Whereas a cover crop, the whole point of it is to have something growing after the cash crop is harvested. So a cover crop can be planted together with the spring crop, kind of like an intercrop would be, but it would be using a biennial or a perennial in some cases, something that's going to grow after that crop is harvested.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Okay. All right. Well, thank yeah, thank you for that distinction. I appreciate that. Uh so when you're getting the word out about this, how how are you going about doing that in your conversations?

Outreach Through Farm-Specific Problems

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Most of it is through trying to hear what the farms are seeing as challenges on their operation. So when I work with producers um uh at my day job as an agronomist, I'm trying to listen to their problems like any agronomist would be. But if a cover crop can fill the role as opposed to using more pesticides, more fertilizers, if a cover crop can fill the role, then I try and explain that to them, point them in the direction, give them examples of other people who've used it, and just try to get the interest peaked in them in s in doing that, which is usually fairly easy to do because some of the other ways of addressing their problems involve adding more expense for unknown results, whereas a cover crop, it's really they can be added in at not much extra cost.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

So um so when you're sharing this, um it sounds like um you know you're having conversations with people, so is it just is ha this happening in a more casual manner? Um, you know, we talked earlier about you maybe being somebody who connects you know these ideas with others and and that it kind of comes about organically through conversation.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

I've found that the most uh successful way to do it is through just informal conversations. I would like to get to a point where I can bring producers in to hear speakers and have ideas kind of put forth to many farms just to drive the interest. But to this point, I found the most successful way is just a is a one-on-one meeting with a farm.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Right. And and I imagine, I mean you can talk specifics about that particular farm, um, that farmer's concerns and and you know, or skepticism if there is up there, um, and then address those very specifically in those conversations. So um tell me a bit about that role, like how how are you finding it going and having these conversations and and just bringing this awareness maybe to to others.

Trust, Education, And Industry Pressure

SPEAKER_00 19:11

It's something that I f deal with quite quite frequently because I uh I am trying to get more farms to do it. And um one of the challenges is uh I think there needs to be more education amongst agronomists and in in the benefits of cover cropping, because oftentimes there's a whole lot of uh private agronomists and um colleagues of mine who aren't interested in cover crops. So farms are speaking to more than one person. They tend to the information kind of how do I word it, it's not all coming from the same voice or the same perspective. So oftentimes the farms will become interested and then they might lose interest or maybe they might shift focus. So bringing that back and gaining the trust of the producers is something that I spend a lot of time doing, and that's through if I do have a cover crop out with the producer, taking the time to go out with them and dig with a shovel and and measure the benefits and try and capture those differences visually or through digging or through work speaking with them later about it. But trying to show measurable change so that the benefits aren't lost on what they're you know mishearing and from around the industry. When bringing any new idea to producers, there are barriers. And I work as a sales agronomist, and the stranglehold that the chemical companies have on influencing what gets used I find is a tremendous uh pressure on farms. And I don't want to think it's competes with cover cropping ideas and sustainable ideas, but it adds another voice.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

There are all sorts of struggles on farms and and uh Right, and many ideas and approaches and and concerns and challenges, and you know, I imagine it's not a one-size-fits-all.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

I do think that cover cropping uh what s can solve so many issues on a farm. Um there's all sorts of beneficial practices on farms that are being promoted, using humic acids, using humate granules, um, reducing fertilizer, using nitrogen stabilizers. Out of every practice that is done, in my opinion, cover cropping is the would be the most effective form or the most effective thing to take on out of any of the other um beneficial practices or things that are marketed or or uh sold as beneficial practices.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Wonderful. Well, fantastic. So tell me a bit about how you became you shared the story about your garden and and the impact that that had on you. Uh is that where this started for you? Or or it sounds like you shared a bit at the beginning too about how you got into this industry. So how how did you become so passionate about this?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Um that, but also through just hearing um soil health educators and other people in the industry speaking at conferences, speaking at workshops, um, seeing the benefits that other farms who were maybe on producer panels were having in their locations, in their part of the world, seeing the benefits and uh also dealing with the farms and understanding now that the farm profitability is a huge issue for farms. And I feel like this is one way that they can add in and easily adopt to cause benefits. So all of it together, I guess. Nothing specific, no specific thing.

Rethinking Inputs With Prairie Stories

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Well, what what is your hope uh for the next few years or you know, for your work? Um, you know, is there is there a legacy you hope to leave or is there a goal you hope to hit?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Um I have several goals. Uh one is to increase cover cropping. I do think that every farm should take on cover cropping. Also another goal I'm working towards is reducing fungicide use when it's not needed. And I feel like that's something that um we've kind of uh almost all like in the farming industry, we're kind of almost led to believe like we can't grow a crop without some inputs. Kind of makes you wonder how things happened before they came along. So I'm trying to reduce um fungicide use on farms. And actually when I one other thing I should mention too. I used to read my kids uh the Laura Ingalls books, Little Host on the Prairie Books, and one of those stories, I can't remember which one, but the f it was in the eighteen hundreds, I can't remember the year, but he was dad or her paw in the story. He was going to his wheat field was going to yield forty bushels that year. And that wheat field, when I think about it, that was in the eighteen hundreds, and it was gonna yield in the forty forties. No fertilizer, no pesticides just put in with his horse and however it was done. But forty bushels, that's like right now people are getting fifty, sixty bushels of wheat, and with all of the expenses put in. So how was it possible that he could get forty bushels back then? In the story, the wheat got eaten by grasshoppers and it was like it was what it was, but just the fact that it was done back then and then it's really not much more productive now with all of the added inputs, it just kind of makes you kind of give pause as to what's really happening here.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Right. Well, and I you know, just your desire to do things in a different way or to to improve the soil health and to um you know assist farmers in increasing their profitability. Like it really comes through. And um, so I just appreciate you know all the different perspectives that you are bringing to this. Um and I remember reading those books when I was a little kid too. And and I mean I had a different viewpoint um because of course I have an indigenous background, so I was reading them kind of a different lens. Um, but I do remember those stories. And and so yeah, and and the conversations we've had here too are always on um how can we do things to benefit all life as well,

Pesticides, Missing Bugs, Bigger Impacts

SPEAKER_02 25:58

right? Like not just um the bottom line, but also making sure that we're preserving and promoting soil health and clean waters and clean air, and and just making sure that you know um the plants are healthy and the animals surrounding, you know, these lands are healthy as well. And so um it it sounds to you like that's a a concern of yours, kind of this bigger um big picture approach.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, it definitely is, and even when I think back to when I was a summer student out of university driving from in in egg research and just the the amount of mosquitoes that used to be on the windshield, and I haven't seen that for years. And I don't know why entirely, but I believe it just part of it is excessive use of pesticides, insecticides in that case. Um so yeah, I do want to make a difference in reducing inputs. And I as a sales agronomist, I do see w what I believe to be sales of pesticides that are totally unneeded on farms. Like w there was more birth army worm sprays on canola last year that really needed to be done, in in my opinion. That's just one example, but I think that there's a lot of uh pressure in the industry just to spray for every little problem. When really um yeah, it's just seems to be wasteful and causing causing a lot of problems in general, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

And and that's something I've talked with other people about too, just when you're traveling on um highways throughout Treaty 4 and Treaty 6 territory, you know, throughout Saskatchewan. There's just uh even 10, 20 years ago, I remember being a teenager and and bugs and like you know, and dusk in summertime, right? And you just have to get that cleared off. And and I don't remember having to do much of that. Like as every year goes on, but it is a concern, right? Because um I understand that uh pests are a problem when it comes to growing. Um and also when you look at how interconnected everything is in our life cycle, uh, and I'm talking about all life forms, um, that that has an impact, and it's it's concerning because uh those insects is as annoying as they can be play a role. Um and uh and when we fall out of balance, uh, you know, I can't I can't predict what's going to happen, but um, but to our teachings, uh, you know, a lot of indigenous teachings, but this is a concern when when we see um these types of drastic changes, which we have seen, you know, in our homelands and territories uh based in settlement, right? And uh so um looking at how we can live together and and share the land and operate in such a way that benefits um all people here, not just um, you know, one industry or one um perspective. And so I do appreciate you know your sharing on this.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

There's a that's a challenge in industry too, and my I think because there is so much market pressure for a farm to spray. There's um in the example of insects and canola, a farm can basically spray for flea beetles for free. Not totally free because there's some operation costs, but if they had the right seed treatment. So some farms might choose to just put it on anyway, just in case. So there's a lot of um yeah, just the industry people need I feel like farms need to be educated on so that they don't have to s fall for such industry pressure because the industry wants to sell product.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah.

Closing Thanks And Funding

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Well, uh Carrie, I do want to thank you for um spending your time uh with us here today and and talking about these issues. Um I just you know wish you the best in your future endeavors in in getting these conversations going and and talking to growers and farmers about different approaches and um and thank you for sharing your passion about cover crops. I learned a lot from you today.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Thanks so much. This is the Bridging Relations Podcast. Thank you for listening. Looking forward to connecting with you next time. Funding for this project has been provided by Agriculture and AgriFood Canada through the Agricultural Climate Solutions Living Labs program.