{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.93,"endTime":4.71,"body":"- Welcome to Consider the"},{"startTime":0.93,"endTime":4.71,"body":"Constitution, the podcast"},{"startTime":4.71,"endTime":6.3,"body":"that cuts through the noise"},{"startTime":6.3,"endTime":9.63,"body":"and provides insight into"},{"startTime":6.3,"endTime":9.63,"body":"constitutional issues"},{"startTime":9.63,"endTime":12.63,"body":"that directly affect every American."},{"startTime":12.63,"endTime":13.8,"body":"Hosted by Dr."},{"startTime":13.8,"endTime":15.39,"body":"Katie Crawford Lackey"},{"startTime":15.39,"endTime":18.84,"body":"and featuring interviews"},{"startTime":15.39,"endTime":18.84,"body":"with constitutional scholars,"},{"startTime":18.84,"endTime":22.83,"body":"policy and subject matter"},{"startTime":18.84,"endTime":22.83,"body":"experts, heritage professionals"},{"startTime":22.83,"endTime":26.37,"body":"and legal practitioners,"},{"startTime":22.83,"endTime":26.37,"body":"we examine the rights"},{"startTime":26.37,"endTime":29.1,"body":"and responsibilities of citizenship."},{"startTime":29.1,"endTime":31.59,"body":"Consider the Constitution"},{"startTime":29.1,"endTime":31.59,"body":"is brought to you"},{"startTime":31.59,"endTime":34.02,"body":"by the Robert H. Smith Center"},{"startTime":34.02,"endTime":37.56,"body":"for the Constitution at"},{"startTime":34.02,"endTime":37.56,"body":"James Madison's Montpelier."},{"startTime":39.78,"endTime":43.35,"body":"- Hello and welcome to"},{"startTime":39.78,"endTime":43.35,"body":"Consider the Constitution."},{"startTime":43.35,"endTime":44.67,"body":"I'm your host, Dr."},{"startTime":44.67,"endTime":47.34,"body":"Katie Crawford Lackey,"},{"startTime":44.67,"endTime":47.34,"body":"director of the Center"},{"startTime":47.34,"endTime":51.06,"body":"for the Constitution at"},{"startTime":47.34,"endTime":51.06,"body":"James Madison's Montpelier."},{"startTime":51.06,"endTime":54.18,"body":"As we kick off season two in 2025,"},{"startTime":54.18,"endTime":57.18,"body":"this year has already"},{"startTime":54.18,"endTime":57.18,"body":"presented us with examples of"},{"startTime":57.18,"endTime":60.06,"body":"how relevant and important James Madison"},{"startTime":60.06,"endTime":62.34,"body":"and the US Constitution continue"},{"startTime":62.34,"endTime":64.35,"body":"to be in our everyday lives."},{"startTime":64.35,"endTime":67.26,"body":"Today we're focusing"},{"startTime":64.35,"endTime":67.26,"body":"on the First Amendment"},{"startTime":67.26,"endTime":70.62,"body":"and more specifically,"},{"startTime":67.26,"endTime":70.62,"body":"the right to free speech."},{"startTime":70.62,"endTime":73.8,"body":"Now this right may be on"},{"startTime":70.62,"endTime":73.8,"body":"the minds of many of us"},{"startTime":73.8,"endTime":75.99,"body":"as the US Supreme Court prepares"},{"startTime":75.99,"endTime":79.62,"body":"to hear oral arguments on"},{"startTime":75.99,"endTime":79.62,"body":"whether the ban on TikTok should"},{"startTime":79.62,"endTime":81.27,"body":"go into effect."},{"startTime":81.27,"endTime":84.66,"body":"Now, when President Biden"},{"startTime":81.27,"endTime":84.66,"body":"passed the protecting Americans"},{"startTime":84.66,"endTime":88.38,"body":"from Foreign Adversary Control"},{"startTime":84.66,"endTime":88.38,"body":"Applications Act in April"},{"startTime":88.38,"endTime":92.55,"body":"of 2024, the law was set to"},{"startTime":88.38,"endTime":92.55,"body":"go into effect in January"},{"startTime":92.55,"endTime":93.96,"body":"of 2025."},{"startTime":93.96,"endTime":97.59,"body":"Now, as we come to this point,"},{"startTime":93.96,"endTime":97.59,"body":"we have to ask ourselves,"},{"startTime":97.59,"endTime":99.84,"body":"is this a violation of"},{"startTime":97.59,"endTime":99.84,"body":"the First Amendment,"},{"startTime":99.84,"endTime":102.48,"body":"specifically the right to free speech?"},{"startTime":102.48,"endTime":105.75,"body":"And what would James"},{"startTime":102.48,"endTime":105.75,"body":"Madison, who is the architect"},{"startTime":105.75,"endTime":108.21,"body":"of the Bill of Rights, think about this"},{"startTime":108.21,"endTime":112.98,"body":"and joining us today to talk"},{"startTime":108.21,"endTime":112.98,"body":"about this is Dr. Lynn Uzzell."},{"startTime":112.98,"endTime":115.77,"body":"We welcomed her in our very first episode"},{"startTime":115.77,"endTime":117.24,"body":"of Consider the Constitution,"},{"startTime":117.24,"endTime":119.85,"body":"and it's a real pleasure to"},{"startTime":117.24,"endTime":119.85,"body":"have her back on the show."},{"startTime":119.85,"endTime":121.89,"body":"She is currently an associate professor"},{"startTime":121.89,"endTime":124.62,"body":"of political science at Bethel University."},{"startTime":124.62,"endTime":127.44,"body":"She has previously taught"},{"startTime":124.62,"endTime":127.44,"body":"at Baylor University,"},{"startTime":127.44,"endTime":130.44,"body":"the University of Richmond,"},{"startTime":127.44,"endTime":130.44,"body":"the University of Virginia,"},{"startTime":130.44,"endTime":132.78,"body":"and Washington and Lee University."},{"startTime":132.78,"endTime":135.72,"body":"She was also the scholar"},{"startTime":132.78,"endTime":135.72,"body":"in residence at the Center"},{"startTime":135.72,"endTime":138.42,"body":"for the Constitution here at Montpelier"},{"startTime":138.42,"endTime":139.98,"body":"and the founding director"},{"startTime":139.98,"endTime":142.41,"body":"of the Summer Civics Institute at the"},{"startTime":142.41,"endTime":144.36,"body":"University of Virginia."},{"startTime":144.36,"endTime":146.58,"body":"Lynn, it's a pleasure to"},{"startTime":144.36,"endTime":146.58,"body":"have you back on the show."},{"startTime":146.58,"endTime":148.26,"body":"Thank you for joining us today,"},{"startTime":148.26,"endTime":149.26,"body":"- Katie."},{"startTime":149.26,"endTime":150.15,"body":"The pleasure is all mine."},{"startTime":150.15,"endTime":152.43,"body":"- So as I referenced this right"},{"startTime":152.43,"endTime":156.0,"body":"to Free speech is very much in"},{"startTime":152.43,"endTime":156.0,"body":"the press right now thinking"},{"startTime":156.0,"endTime":159.54,"body":"about this potential ban"},{"startTime":156.0,"endTime":159.54,"body":"that will go into effect."},{"startTime":159.54,"endTime":162.39,"body":"So I wanna talk a bit about that later on."},{"startTime":162.39,"endTime":166.14,"body":"But first, can you give us a"},{"startTime":162.39,"endTime":166.14,"body":"sense of the Bill of Rights?"},{"startTime":166.14,"endTime":167.31,"body":"You know, Madison's role in this,"},{"startTime":167.31,"endTime":169.86,"body":"I referenced he's the architect"},{"startTime":167.31,"endTime":169.86,"body":"of the Bill of Rights,"},{"startTime":169.86,"endTime":172.71,"body":"but why was he writing this bill of Rights"},{"startTime":172.71,"endTime":174.78,"body":"after the Constitution was drafted?"},{"startTime":174.78,"endTime":177.66,"body":"What was so important? What"},{"startTime":174.78,"endTime":177.66,"body":"was his thought process?"},{"startTime":177.66,"endTime":180.22,"body":"- Well, it's a very interesting actually"},{"startTime":180.22,"endTime":183.61,"body":"because Madison was publicly"},{"startTime":180.22,"endTime":183.61,"body":"against a bill of rights"},{"startTime":183.61,"endTime":185.35,"body":"before he was for it."},{"startTime":185.35,"endTime":189.76,"body":"So in the Virginia ratifying"},{"startTime":185.35,"endTime":189.76,"body":"debates, Madison said"},{"startTime":189.76,"endTime":192.04,"body":"that a bill of rights was not necessary"},{"startTime":192.04,"endTime":194.17,"body":"and could even be dangerous."},{"startTime":194.17,"endTime":197.17,"body":"And he was echoing the arguments"},{"startTime":194.17,"endTime":197.17,"body":"that had already been given"},{"startTime":197.17,"endTime":198.31,"body":"by James Wilson"},{"startTime":198.31,"endTime":202.87,"body":"that a constitution which"},{"startTime":198.31,"endTime":202.87,"body":"offers limited powers"},{"startTime":202.87,"endTime":206.5,"body":"for the legislature is"},{"startTime":202.87,"endTime":206.5,"body":"already its best protection,"},{"startTime":206.5,"endTime":208.36,"body":"that those limited powers mean"},{"startTime":208.36,"endTime":212.47,"body":"that Congress doesn't have"},{"startTime":208.36,"endTime":212.47,"body":"the power to limit speech"},{"startTime":212.47,"endTime":213.88,"body":"or limit religion, and"},{"startTime":213.88,"endTime":216.61,"body":"therefore if we add a bill of rights,"},{"startTime":216.61,"endTime":220.81,"body":"then we name certain rights"},{"startTime":216.61,"endTime":220.81,"body":"that Congress can't do,"},{"startTime":220.81,"endTime":222.13,"body":"which seems to suggest"},{"startTime":222.13,"endTime":225.79,"body":"that Congress would have those"},{"startTime":222.13,"endTime":225.79,"body":"powers if those exclusions"},{"startTime":225.79,"endTime":228.34,"body":"were not named and"},{"startTime":225.79,"endTime":228.34,"body":"therefore it's dangerous"},{"startTime":228.34,"endTime":232.12,"body":"because it undermines the"},{"startTime":228.34,"endTime":232.12,"body":"limited function of Congress."},{"startTime":232.12,"endTime":233.74,"body":"And so that's the argument"},{"startTime":233.74,"endTime":237.94,"body":"that Madison gave in the"},{"startTime":233.74,"endTime":237.94,"body":"Virginia Ratifying Convention."},{"startTime":237.94,"endTime":241.27,"body":"But later when he was writing"},{"startTime":237.94,"endTime":241.27,"body":"privately to Jefferson,"},{"startTime":241.27,"endTime":245.2,"body":"he said that he was always"},{"startTime":241.27,"endTime":245.2,"body":"in favor of a Bill of Rights"},{"startTime":245.2,"endTime":248.56,"body":"as long as it could be"},{"startTime":245.2,"endTime":248.56,"body":"written in a certain way."},{"startTime":248.56,"endTime":250.12,"body":"That didn't mean"},{"startTime":250.12,"endTime":252.49,"body":"that these rights were"},{"startTime":250.12,"endTime":252.49,"body":"construed in these ways"},{"startTime":252.49,"endTime":254.53,"body":"and he thought that he solved that problem"},{"startTime":254.53,"endTime":256.18,"body":"with the Ninth Amendment."},{"startTime":256.18,"endTime":260.89,"body":"But when he was running for"},{"startTime":256.18,"endTime":260.89,"body":"his seat in Congress, he had"},{"startTime":260.89,"endTime":263.8,"body":"to deal with his earlier public statements"},{"startTime":263.8,"endTime":266.32,"body":"because there were many voters"},{"startTime":266.32,"endTime":270.16,"body":"and especially religious ones"},{"startTime":266.32,"endTime":270.16,"body":"who wanted to see protections"},{"startTime":270.16,"endTime":273.76,"body":"for things like free speech"},{"startTime":270.16,"endTime":273.76,"body":"and freedom of religion."},{"startTime":273.76,"endTime":276.25,"body":"And they believe that"},{"startTime":273.76,"endTime":276.25,"body":"Madison would not be a"},{"startTime":276.25,"endTime":277.57,"body":"good champion of that."},{"startTime":277.57,"endTime":282.13,"body":"And therefore during what we"},{"startTime":277.57,"endTime":282.13,"body":"would recognize as a campaign,"},{"startTime":282.13,"endTime":285.07,"body":"Madison made all sorts"},{"startTime":282.13,"endTime":285.07,"body":"of campaign promises"},{"startTime":285.07,"endTime":289.42,"body":"that he would champion a Bill"},{"startTime":285.07,"endTime":289.42,"body":"of rights if he was elected."},{"startTime":289.42,"endTime":293.08,"body":"So when he was elected, he"},{"startTime":289.42,"endTime":293.08,"body":"found that it was a a matter"},{"startTime":293.08,"endTime":296.74,"body":"of duty to his constituencies to live up"},{"startTime":296.74,"endTime":298.45,"body":"to his campaign promise."},{"startTime":298.45,"endTime":302.29,"body":"And that's why he was on"},{"startTime":298.45,"endTime":302.29,"body":"the forefront of those"},{"startTime":302.29,"endTime":305.2,"body":"who are arguing that we had"},{"startTime":302.29,"endTime":305.2,"body":"to have a bill of Rights."},{"startTime":305.2,"endTime":309.37,"body":"And in some ways he really"},{"startTime":305.2,"endTime":309.37,"body":"did force Congress' hand in"},{"startTime":309.37,"endTime":311.71,"body":"addressing these amendments"},{"startTime":309.37,"endTime":311.71,"body":"that he wanted to add"},{"startTime":311.71,"endTime":313.21,"body":"to the Constitution."},{"startTime":313.21,"endTime":317.11,"body":"And when he was deciding which"},{"startTime":313.21,"endTime":317.11,"body":"amendments to formulate, most"},{"startTime":317.11,"endTime":320.11,"body":"of them were not his own brainchild."},{"startTime":320.11,"endTime":322.87,"body":"So he was looking at"},{"startTime":320.11,"endTime":322.87,"body":"the ratifying statements"},{"startTime":322.87,"endTime":326.44,"body":"of several different states"},{"startTime":322.87,"endTime":326.44,"body":"which had requested amendments."},{"startTime":326.44,"endTime":331.18,"body":"And so he was compiling all"},{"startTime":326.44,"endTime":331.18,"body":"of these requested amendments"},{"startTime":331.18,"endTime":335.26,"body":"and he kept many of them and"},{"startTime":331.18,"endTime":335.26,"body":"he also discarded many of them,"},{"startTime":335.26,"endTime":338.08,"body":"but most of the ones that"},{"startTime":335.26,"endTime":338.08,"body":"were asking for the protection"},{"startTime":338.08,"endTime":340.18,"body":"of rights he kept, and"},{"startTime":340.18,"endTime":342.34,"body":"therefore most of the amendments"},{"startTime":342.34,"endTime":345.46,"body":"that were passed in 1791 related"},{"startTime":345.46,"endTime":347.62,"body":"to the protection of rights."},{"startTime":347.62,"endTime":348.79,"body":"- When we think about the Bill"},{"startTime":348.79,"endTime":351.82,"body":"of Rights in particularly"},{"startTime":348.79,"endTime":351.82,"body":"the First Amendment,"},{"startTime":351.82,"endTime":355.15,"body":"there's a number of rights"},{"startTime":351.82,"endTime":355.15,"body":"in that one amendment itself."},{"startTime":355.15,"endTime":358.91,"body":"We have freedom of"},{"startTime":355.15,"endTime":358.91,"body":"religion, speech, assembly,"},{"startTime":358.91,"endTime":360.89,"body":"petition, and press."},{"startTime":360.89,"endTime":362.3,"body":"What do we know about"},{"startTime":362.3,"endTime":365.84,"body":"what Madison was thinking"},{"startTime":362.3,"endTime":365.84,"body":"about those five rights"},{"startTime":365.84,"endTime":368.12,"body":"that he grouped into this First Amendment?"},{"startTime":368.12,"endTime":371.6,"body":"Were these rights of the"},{"startTime":368.12,"endTime":371.6,"body":"same significance and value,"},{"startTime":371.6,"endTime":374.57,"body":"or did he place a higher"},{"startTime":371.6,"endTime":374.57,"body":"value on any number"},{"startTime":374.57,"endTime":376.13,"body":"of those five rights?"},{"startTime":376.13,"endTime":379.25,"body":"- Well, we have what Madison"},{"startTime":376.13,"endTime":379.25,"body":"says on several different"},{"startTime":379.25,"endTime":382.55,"body":"occasions about the relative"},{"startTime":379.25,"endTime":382.55,"body":"importance of these rights."},{"startTime":382.55,"endTime":386.54,"body":"And also when he was delivering"},{"startTime":382.55,"endTime":386.54,"body":"his speech defending the"},{"startTime":386.54,"endTime":388.01,"body":"amendments to the Constitution,"},{"startTime":388.01,"endTime":391.55,"body":"this was on June 8th in 1789."},{"startTime":391.55,"endTime":394.97,"body":"He was giving his reasons why a bill"},{"startTime":394.97,"endTime":396.62,"body":"of rights was a good thing"},{"startTime":396.62,"endTime":399.44,"body":"and he was describing the"},{"startTime":396.62,"endTime":399.44,"body":"different kinds of rights"},{"startTime":399.44,"endTime":402.23,"body":"that were named typically"},{"startTime":399.44,"endTime":402.23,"body":"in a Bill of Rights."},{"startTime":402.23,"endTime":404.72,"body":"And he said that some"},{"startTime":402.23,"endTime":404.72,"body":"of these rights are part"},{"startTime":404.72,"endTime":406.85,"body":"of our natural rights, things"},{"startTime":406.85,"endTime":407.96,"body":"that we would have in the state"},{"startTime":407.96,"endTime":411.35,"body":"of nature if there was no"},{"startTime":407.96,"endTime":411.35,"body":"government, but that we reserve"},{"startTime":411.35,"endTime":415.67,"body":"and we don't give up when we"},{"startTime":411.35,"endTime":415.67,"body":"enter into a civil society."},{"startTime":415.67,"endTime":417.17,"body":"But he said many"},{"startTime":417.17,"endTime":421.61,"body":"of these rights are not natural"},{"startTime":417.17,"endTime":421.61,"body":"in character such as a right"},{"startTime":421.61,"endTime":423.17,"body":"to a jury trial,"},{"startTime":423.17,"endTime":426.5,"body":"but they're part of a civil"},{"startTime":423.17,"endTime":426.5,"body":"contract, they're part"},{"startTime":426.5,"endTime":428.87,"body":"of the compact that we enter into."},{"startTime":428.87,"endTime":430.88,"body":"And he said they are just as important"},{"startTime":430.88,"endTime":432.74,"body":"for protecting natural rights"},{"startTime":432.74,"endTime":435.5,"body":"as reserving the natural"},{"startTime":432.74,"endTime":435.5,"body":"rights themselves."},{"startTime":435.5,"endTime":437.57,"body":"So obviously freedom of speech"},{"startTime":437.57,"endTime":440.33,"body":"and by a certain extension"},{"startTime":437.57,"endTime":440.33,"body":"freedom of press would be in"},{"startTime":440.33,"endTime":443.72,"body":"that category of natural"},{"startTime":440.33,"endTime":443.72,"body":"rights that are reserved,"},{"startTime":443.72,"endTime":445.43,"body":"but even among the natural rights,"},{"startTime":445.43,"endTime":447.26,"body":"there is a certain hierarchy."},{"startTime":447.26,"endTime":450.89,"body":"So when he defended"},{"startTime":447.26,"endTime":450.89,"body":"religious freedom, he said"},{"startTime":450.89,"endTime":453.83,"body":"that this was a uniquely"},{"startTime":450.89,"endTime":453.83,"body":"inalienable, right?"},{"startTime":453.83,"endTime":458.24,"body":"In other words, even if a people"},{"startTime":453.83,"endTime":458.24,"body":"were to give up that right"},{"startTime":458.24,"endTime":460.34,"body":"to government, they shouldn't,"},{"startTime":460.34,"endTime":462.29,"body":"by its nature, it's unalienable."},{"startTime":462.29,"endTime":464.99,"body":"It is not something that can be given up."},{"startTime":464.99,"endTime":468.05,"body":"That's not how he described"},{"startTime":464.99,"endTime":468.05,"body":"freedom of speech."},{"startTime":468.05,"endTime":470.48,"body":"Freedom of speech is"},{"startTime":468.05,"endTime":470.48,"body":"also a natural, right?"},{"startTime":470.48,"endTime":471.86,"body":"It is what we would have the right"},{"startTime":471.86,"endTime":473.9,"body":"to do if there was no government."},{"startTime":473.9,"endTime":477.65,"body":"But he never said that it was"},{"startTime":473.9,"endTime":477.65,"body":"by its nature inalienable."},{"startTime":477.65,"endTime":480.11,"body":"Instead he said that speech"},{"startTime":480.11,"endTime":484.88,"body":"and press were something that"},{"startTime":480.11,"endTime":484.88,"body":"were necessary for other ends."},{"startTime":484.88,"endTime":486.5,"body":"They were necessary and"},{"startTime":486.5,"endTime":489.95,"body":"and indeed, if you look"},{"startTime":486.5,"endTime":489.95,"body":"at his original proposal"},{"startTime":489.95,"endTime":492.71,"body":"for the First Amendment, he said, freedom"},{"startTime":492.71,"endTime":497.21,"body":"of speech being the"},{"startTime":492.71,"endTime":497.21,"body":"bulwark of Liberty should"},{"startTime":497.21,"endTime":499.73,"body":"therefore require these protections."},{"startTime":499.73,"endTime":502.97,"body":"And he also wanted this, one of the ones"},{"startTime":502.97,"endTime":506.51,"body":"that he pulled aside as being liberty,"},{"startTime":506.51,"endTime":509.6,"body":"that he wanted protected"},{"startTime":506.51,"endTime":509.6,"body":"not only from Congress"},{"startTime":509.6,"endTime":513.32,"body":"because the Bill of Rights"},{"startTime":509.6,"endTime":513.32,"body":"related originally only to powers"},{"startTime":513.32,"endTime":516.26,"body":"that Congress could not exercise liberties"},{"startTime":516.26,"endTime":518.42,"body":"that Congress could not infringe upon,"},{"startTime":518.42,"endTime":521.33,"body":"but they were not applicable"},{"startTime":518.42,"endTime":521.33,"body":"to state governments."},{"startTime":521.33,"endTime":523.37,"body":"But Madison, if he had gotten his way,"},{"startTime":523.37,"endTime":525.35,"body":"would've had a separate amendment"},{"startTime":525.35,"endTime":528.11,"body":"that would've restricted"},{"startTime":525.35,"endTime":528.11,"body":"state powers as well."},{"startTime":528.11,"endTime":531.44,"body":"And he named certain"},{"startTime":528.11,"endTime":531.44,"body":"liberties that were not"},{"startTime":531.44,"endTime":533.78,"body":"to be encroached upon by"},{"startTime":531.44,"endTime":533.78,"body":"state governments, one"},{"startTime":533.78,"endTime":536.73,"body":"of them being the of conscience"},{"startTime":536.73,"endTime":539.22,"body":"and another of them being jury trial"},{"startTime":539.22,"endTime":542.1,"body":"and another of them"},{"startTime":539.22,"endTime":542.1,"body":"being freedom of press."},{"startTime":542.1,"endTime":545.85,"body":"So this is a freedom that he considered"},{"startTime":545.85,"endTime":547.95,"body":"to be particularly important"},{"startTime":547.95,"endTime":552.66,"body":"and again, as a bulwark of"},{"startTime":547.95,"endTime":552.66,"body":"liberty, which is a phrasing"},{"startTime":552.66,"endTime":557.07,"body":"that he got from someone else"},{"startTime":552.66,"endTime":557.07,"body":"from one of Cato's letters."},{"startTime":557.07,"endTime":561.63,"body":"And so according to Cato's"},{"startTime":557.07,"endTime":561.63,"body":"letters, he described the freedom"},{"startTime":561.63,"endTime":564.27,"body":"of press as a bulwark of liberty."},{"startTime":565.14,"endTime":569.16,"body":"- Now after the Constitution"},{"startTime":565.14,"endTime":569.16,"body":"is ratified, the Bill"},{"startTime":569.16,"endTime":570.33,"body":"of Rights is passed."},{"startTime":570.33,"endTime":573.09,"body":"We have that as part of the Constitution."},{"startTime":573.09,"endTime":575.16,"body":"What happens in terms of"},{"startTime":575.16,"endTime":579.78,"body":"how early America is"},{"startTime":575.16,"endTime":579.78,"body":"responding to these rights"},{"startTime":579.78,"endTime":581.97,"body":"that are now protected"},{"startTime":579.78,"endTime":581.97,"body":"in the Bill of Rights?"},{"startTime":581.97,"endTime":584.64,"body":"I'm thinking about Madison's"},{"startTime":581.97,"endTime":584.64,"body":"involved in government"},{"startTime":584.64,"endTime":588.0,"body":"with Jefferson and then Madison"},{"startTime":584.64,"endTime":588.0,"body":"himself becomes president."},{"startTime":588.0,"endTime":590.04,"body":"So what does the exercise"},{"startTime":590.04,"endTime":592.95,"body":"of these rights look"},{"startTime":590.04,"endTime":592.95,"body":"like in early America?"},{"startTime":592.95,"endTime":596.07,"body":"- Well, that is another"},{"startTime":592.95,"endTime":596.07,"body":"interesting question because"},{"startTime":596.07,"endTime":599.01,"body":"although a lot of people"},{"startTime":596.07,"endTime":599.01,"body":"today like to think"},{"startTime":599.01,"endTime":603.0,"body":"that the founders had this"},{"startTime":599.01,"endTime":603.0,"body":"monolithic understanding of"},{"startTime":603.0,"endTime":604.41,"body":"what rights meant"},{"startTime":604.41,"endTime":608.07,"body":"and we need to discover what"},{"startTime":604.41,"endTime":608.07,"body":"that one understanding is,"},{"startTime":608.07,"endTime":609.6,"body":"some people think that we need to apply"},{"startTime":609.6,"endTime":611.16,"body":"that one understanding."},{"startTime":611.16,"endTime":613.86,"body":"Other people think that we need"},{"startTime":611.16,"endTime":613.86,"body":"to know it just for the sake"},{"startTime":613.86,"endTime":617.19,"body":"of historical or civic appreciation."},{"startTime":617.19,"endTime":621.15,"body":"But on some questions, there"},{"startTime":617.19,"endTime":621.15,"body":"wasn't a unified understanding."},{"startTime":621.15,"endTime":623.58,"body":"And that is definitely"},{"startTime":621.15,"endTime":623.58,"body":"true of things like freedom"},{"startTime":623.58,"endTime":626.94,"body":"of religion and freedom"},{"startTime":623.58,"endTime":626.94,"body":"of speech and press."},{"startTime":626.94,"endTime":628.41,"body":"And the reason is"},{"startTime":628.41,"endTime":631.32,"body":"because we adopted certain"},{"startTime":628.41,"endTime":631.32,"body":"understandings from the common"},{"startTime":631.32,"endTime":633.48,"body":"law of England and the common law"},{"startTime":633.48,"endTime":638.01,"body":"of England had a robust"},{"startTime":633.48,"endTime":638.01,"body":"understanding of freedom of press"},{"startTime":638.01,"endTime":639.51,"body":"and freedom of religion."},{"startTime":639.51,"endTime":643.35,"body":"But Madison explicitly"},{"startTime":639.51,"endTime":643.35,"body":"stated these were too narrow,"},{"startTime":643.35,"endTime":646.44,"body":"these were not the American"},{"startTime":643.35,"endTime":646.44,"body":"understandings of freedom"},{"startTime":646.44,"endTime":649.5,"body":"of press and freedom of religion."},{"startTime":649.5,"endTime":653.16,"body":"And it's for that reason"},{"startTime":649.5,"endTime":653.16,"body":"that he often was trying"},{"startTime":653.16,"endTime":657.72,"body":"to actively en large people's"},{"startTime":653.16,"endTime":657.72,"body":"understanding of these rights."},{"startTime":657.72,"endTime":661.95,"body":"And people today are somewhat surprised"},{"startTime":661.95,"endTime":666.24,"body":"that the John Adams"},{"startTime":661.95,"endTime":666.24,"body":"administration would even attempt"},{"startTime":666.24,"endTime":668.79,"body":"to pass something like the Sedition Act."},{"startTime":668.79,"endTime":671.49,"body":"The Sedition Act made it illegal"},{"startTime":671.49,"endTime":673.35,"body":"to criticize the government."},{"startTime":673.35,"endTime":676.95,"body":"And even the Sedition Act"},{"startTime":673.35,"endTime":676.95,"body":"was in a certain respect,"},{"startTime":676.95,"endTime":678.15,"body":"more liberal"},{"startTime":678.15,"endTime":682.38,"body":"and more expansive than similar"},{"startTime":678.15,"endTime":682.38,"body":"sedition acts in England."},{"startTime":682.38,"endTime":684.09,"body":"- And those acts are passed"},{"startTime":684.09,"endTime":686.4,"body":"after the Bill of Rights is ratified,"},{"startTime":686.4,"endTime":688.53,"body":"the American people are their speech"},{"startTime":688.53,"endTime":691.53,"body":"and press all that is protected"},{"startTime":688.53,"endTime":691.53,"body":"under the Constitution."},{"startTime":691.53,"endTime":693.21,"body":"- Correct? Exactly."},{"startTime":693.21,"endTime":696.605,"body":"So at this time, the Adams administration"},{"startTime":696.605,"endTime":697.95,"body":"and the Federalist Party"},{"startTime":697.95,"endTime":701.4,"body":"who enacted the Sedition Act believed"},{"startTime":701.4,"endTime":703.41,"body":"that it was completely constitutional"},{"startTime":703.41,"endTime":706.89,"body":"and consistent with what we"},{"startTime":703.41,"endTime":706.89,"body":"now call the First Amendment."},{"startTime":706.89,"endTime":709.47,"body":"Another little accident of history is"},{"startTime":709.47,"endTime":712.38,"body":"that 12 amendments were sent to the states"},{"startTime":712.38,"endTime":714.94,"body":"and only 10 of them were adopted."},{"startTime":714.94,"endTime":717.28,"body":"And therefore what we call"},{"startTime":714.94,"endTime":717.28,"body":"the First Amendment was"},{"startTime":717.28,"endTime":718.99,"body":"actually the Third Amendment."},{"startTime":718.99,"endTime":720.94,"body":"And so during this debate"},{"startTime":720.94,"endTime":723.01,"body":"and during this conversation, Madison"},{"startTime":723.01,"endTime":725.65,"body":"and others often refer"},{"startTime":723.01,"endTime":725.65,"body":"to the Third Amendment,"},{"startTime":725.65,"endTime":728.74,"body":"and when they do, so they are referring to"},{"startTime":728.74,"endTime":730.78,"body":"what we know as the First Amendment."},{"startTime":730.78,"endTime":734.08,"body":"And that is because they didn't"},{"startTime":730.78,"endTime":734.08,"body":"know whether those first two"},{"startTime":734.08,"endTime":737.14,"body":"amendments were going to be"},{"startTime":734.08,"endTime":737.14,"body":"ratified eventually or not."},{"startTime":737.14,"endTime":739.12,"body":"That's a little historical aside."},{"startTime":739.12,"endTime":742.84,"body":"So getting back to what we"},{"startTime":739.12,"endTime":742.84,"body":"call the First Amendment,"},{"startTime":742.84,"endTime":747.61,"body":"Madison was explicitly"},{"startTime":742.84,"endTime":747.61,"body":"saying in his report of 1800"},{"startTime":747.61,"endTime":752.11,"body":"that we do not abide by the"},{"startTime":747.61,"endTime":752.11,"body":"common law understanding"},{"startTime":752.11,"endTime":753.64,"body":"of freedom of press"},{"startTime":753.64,"endTime":757.09,"body":"that the American understanding"},{"startTime":753.64,"endTime":757.09,"body":"is necessarily broader"},{"startTime":757.09,"endTime":759.73,"body":"and he compared it also"},{"startTime":757.09,"endTime":759.73,"body":"to rights of conscience,"},{"startTime":759.73,"endTime":763.69,"body":"which he said again is not"},{"startTime":759.73,"endTime":763.69,"body":"the American understanding."},{"startTime":763.69,"endTime":767.68,"body":"And so what the Federalist"},{"startTime":763.69,"endTime":767.68,"body":"understanding was, again,"},{"startTime":767.68,"endTime":770.02,"body":"they were abiding by"},{"startTime":767.68,"endTime":770.02,"body":"the English common law,"},{"startTime":770.02,"endTime":771.7,"body":"understanding is that"},{"startTime":771.7,"endTime":775.12,"body":"what it protected against"},{"startTime":771.7,"endTime":775.12,"body":"was prior restraint."},{"startTime":775.12,"endTime":777.7,"body":"What that means is essentially censorship."},{"startTime":777.7,"endTime":780.88,"body":"So what Britain was protecting against was"},{"startTime":780.88,"endTime":782.41,"body":"that publishers would not have"},{"startTime":782.41,"endTime":787.41,"body":"to have their publications"},{"startTime":782.41,"endTime":787.41,"body":"previewed by a body of sensors"},{"startTime":787.42,"endTime":789.88,"body":"and approved before"},{"startTime":787.42,"endTime":789.88,"body":"they could be published."},{"startTime":789.88,"endTime":793.45,"body":"So that was the principle."},{"startTime":789.88,"endTime":793.45,"body":"There was no prior restraint."},{"startTime":793.45,"endTime":795.91,"body":"However, they could be"},{"startTime":793.45,"endTime":795.91,"body":"held accountable for"},{"startTime":795.91,"endTime":797.17,"body":"what they published."},{"startTime":797.17,"endTime":800.29,"body":"So if what they published was sedition,"},{"startTime":800.29,"endTime":802.09,"body":"then they could be punished for that."},{"startTime":802.09,"endTime":806.62,"body":"And that's what Adams was"},{"startTime":802.09,"endTime":806.62,"body":"defending in the Sedition Act."},{"startTime":806.62,"endTime":810.07,"body":"But I mentioned that American"},{"startTime":806.62,"endTime":810.07,"body":"understanding even in the"},{"startTime":810.07,"endTime":813.22,"body":"Adams administration, was"},{"startTime":810.07,"endTime":813.22,"body":"more liberal and permissive."},{"startTime":813.22,"endTime":816.76,"body":"And what I meant by that was"},{"startTime":813.22,"endTime":816.76,"body":"under the American Sedition"},{"startTime":816.76,"endTime":819.85,"body":"Act, truth was used as a defense."},{"startTime":819.85,"endTime":824.47,"body":"So it was only falsehoods"},{"startTime":819.85,"endTime":824.47,"body":"which were liable under the"},{"startTime":824.47,"endTime":826.63,"body":"Sedition Act in America."},{"startTime":826.63,"endTime":830.08,"body":"But in England you could"},{"startTime":826.63,"endTime":830.08,"body":"actually be charged"},{"startTime":830.08,"endTime":832.3,"body":"for sedition even if you said something"},{"startTime":832.3,"endTime":833.83,"body":"defamatory against the government."},{"startTime":833.83,"endTime":836.92,"body":"And it was true. So Adams thought"},{"startTime":836.92,"endTime":839.77,"body":"that he was being very"},{"startTime":836.92,"endTime":839.77,"body":"liberal when he passed the"},{"startTime":839.77,"endTime":841.33,"body":"Sedition Act."},{"startTime":841.33,"endTime":846.33,"body":"And I should also point out"},{"startTime":841.33,"endTime":846.33,"body":"that many people were charged"},{"startTime":846.4,"endTime":849.28,"body":"and convicted under the Sedition Act"},{"startTime":849.28,"endTime":852.19,"body":"by the district federal court, which is"},{"startTime":852.19,"endTime":854.95,"body":"to say the courts never struck it down."},{"startTime":854.95,"endTime":858.88,"body":"They accepted that the Sedition"},{"startTime":854.95,"endTime":858.88,"body":"Act was constitutional."},{"startTime":858.88,"endTime":860.56,"body":"And therefore Madison,"},{"startTime":860.56,"endTime":863.74,"body":"when he was arguing"},{"startTime":860.56,"endTime":863.74,"body":"against the Sedition Act,"},{"startTime":863.74,"endTime":867.34,"body":"was arguing against the"},{"startTime":863.74,"endTime":867.34,"body":"judicial interpretation of it."},{"startTime":867.34,"endTime":871.66,"body":"He was saying that the American"},{"startTime":867.34,"endTime":871.66,"body":"understanding was broader."},{"startTime":871.66,"endTime":876.16,"body":"And to the extent that we"},{"startTime":871.66,"endTime":876.16,"body":"accept Madison's interpretation,"},{"startTime":876.16,"endTime":879.76,"body":"we are accepting what you"},{"startTime":876.16,"endTime":879.76,"body":"could call the private"},{"startTime":879.76,"endTime":882.85,"body":"and legislative interpretation"},{"startTime":879.76,"endTime":882.85,"body":"of the Constitution"},{"startTime":882.85,"endTime":885.79,"body":"and not the judicial one at the time"},{"startTime":885.79,"endTime":887.68,"body":"because the judiciary never caught up"},{"startTime":887.68,"endTime":890.74,"body":"with Madison's understanding"},{"startTime":887.68,"endTime":890.74,"body":"until the 20th century."},{"startTime":890.74,"endTime":893.06,"body":"- I this really fascinating."},{"startTime":893.06,"endTime":895.28,"body":"So from what I'm understanding,"},{"startTime":895.28,"endTime":897.23,"body":"this is a really important distinction."},{"startTime":897.23,"endTime":901.91,"body":"So the Sedition Act is"},{"startTime":897.23,"endTime":901.91,"body":"really geared towards those"},{"startTime":901.91,"endTime":904.25,"body":"who are spouting falsehoods you."},{"startTime":904.25,"endTime":906.74,"body":"You can get in trouble"},{"startTime":904.25,"endTime":906.74,"body":"basically if you are"},{"startTime":906.74,"endTime":909.38,"body":"saying false things about the government,"},{"startTime":909.38,"endTime":911.39,"body":"not if you're saying the truth."},{"startTime":911.39,"endTime":914.36,"body":"- Exactly. And there is a story, in fact,"},{"startTime":914.36,"endTime":915.71,"body":"this is a funny story"},{"startTime":915.71,"endTime":918.32,"body":"and I haven't independently verified it,"},{"startTime":918.32,"endTime":919.73,"body":"but I wanna believe it's true."},{"startTime":919.73,"endTime":921.92,"body":"I read it in one of the"},{"startTime":919.73,"endTime":921.92,"body":"histories of the time"},{"startTime":921.92,"endTime":926.27,"body":"that there was a jury"},{"startTime":921.92,"endTime":926.27,"body":"that acquitted somebody"},{"startTime":926.27,"endTime":928.67,"body":"who was charged end of sedition act"},{"startTime":928.67,"endTime":932.63,"body":"because this person had said"},{"startTime":928.67,"endTime":932.63,"body":"that if a war was started,"},{"startTime":932.63,"endTime":936.71,"body":"John Adams ARS would make a huge target"},{"startTime":936.71,"endTime":940.34,"body":"for a British cannon and"},{"startTime":936.71,"endTime":940.34,"body":"the jury acquitted him"},{"startTime":940.34,"endTime":943.67,"body":"because truth is an adequate defense."},{"startTime":943.67,"endTime":945.92,"body":"- This is such a fascinating concept."},{"startTime":945.92,"endTime":950.6,"body":"So truth being a defense,"},{"startTime":945.92,"endTime":950.6,"body":"it makes me wonder,"},{"startTime":950.6,"endTime":953.27,"body":"is this sedition act today?"},{"startTime":953.27,"endTime":957.26,"body":"Would we consider it"},{"startTime":953.27,"endTime":957.26,"body":"infringement of free speech?"},{"startTime":957.26,"endTime":959.51,"body":"And it also makes me think about"},{"startTime":959.51,"endTime":961.88,"body":"how Madison is understanding"},{"startTime":961.88,"endTime":964.61,"body":"and interpreting the"},{"startTime":961.88,"endTime":964.61,"body":"Constitution, the Bill of Rights,"},{"startTime":964.61,"endTime":968.36,"body":"which he authored while you have others,"},{"startTime":968.36,"endTime":971.54,"body":"including the judiciary who's"},{"startTime":968.36,"endTime":971.54,"body":"not seeing eye to eye with him"},{"startTime":971.54,"endTime":973.55,"body":"and how we understand that"},{"startTime":973.55,"endTime":977.75,"body":"or make sense of it today,"},{"startTime":973.55,"endTime":977.75,"body":"when we do have disagreements"},{"startTime":977.75,"endTime":981.14,"body":"among private versus government systems,"},{"startTime":981.14,"endTime":983.75,"body":"how are we carrying this through today?"},{"startTime":983.75,"endTime":988.58,"body":"- Right? And this is exactly"},{"startTime":983.75,"endTime":988.58,"body":"the difference between Madison"},{"startTime":988.58,"endTime":990.41,"body":"and his contemporaries at the time"},{"startTime":990.41,"endTime":994.37,"body":"because Madison said"},{"startTime":990.41,"endTime":994.37,"body":"that's not broad enough."},{"startTime":994.37,"endTime":997.79,"body":"Even saying that truth is"},{"startTime":994.37,"endTime":997.79,"body":"a defense is not enough"},{"startTime":997.79,"endTime":1000.22,"body":"of a defense of freedom of the press."},{"startTime":1000.22,"endTime":1004.54,"body":"In other words, it has to"},{"startTime":1000.22,"endTime":1004.54,"body":"defend falsehoods as well."},{"startTime":1004.54,"endTime":1007.78,"body":"And that's not necessarily libel"},{"startTime":1007.78,"endTime":1011.29,"body":"because libel will be knowing falsehoods"},{"startTime":1011.29,"endTime":1013.69,"body":"and that is still illegal."},{"startTime":1013.69,"endTime":1018.04,"body":"Certain knowing falsehoods,"},{"startTime":1013.69,"endTime":1018.04,"body":"not all of them can be illegal."},{"startTime":1018.04,"endTime":1020.2,"body":"So for instance, fraud is illegal."},{"startTime":1020.2,"endTime":1023.26,"body":"If you knowingly distort the"},{"startTime":1020.2,"endTime":1023.26,"body":"truth about something you're"},{"startTime":1023.26,"endTime":1026.86,"body":"trying to sell, then that is a violation"},{"startTime":1026.86,"endTime":1029.44,"body":"of the law even though it is a crime"},{"startTime":1029.44,"endTime":1031.3,"body":"that is based on speech."},{"startTime":1031.3,"endTime":1033.88,"body":"Nevertheless, what Madison wanted"},{"startTime":1033.88,"endTime":1037.33,"body":"to defend was a broader"},{"startTime":1033.88,"endTime":1037.33,"body":"notion of freedom of press,"},{"startTime":1037.33,"endTime":1039.13,"body":"which allowed for error."},{"startTime":1039.13,"endTime":1040.69,"body":"And the reason is"},{"startTime":1040.69,"endTime":1043.9,"body":"because even though he"},{"startTime":1040.69,"endTime":1043.9,"body":"was not in favor of error,"},{"startTime":1043.9,"endTime":1047.89,"body":"he also did not trust any of"},{"startTime":1043.9,"endTime":1047.89,"body":"the branches of government"},{"startTime":1047.89,"endTime":1050.83,"body":"to be the arbiter of truth and falsehood."},{"startTime":1050.83,"endTime":1055.45,"body":"And that's why the Sedition Act"},{"startTime":1050.83,"endTime":1055.45,"body":"was a violation in Madison's"},{"startTime":1055.45,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"understanding of the First Amendment"},{"startTime":1057.4,"endTime":1059.98,"body":"because even though he understood"},{"startTime":1059.98,"endTime":1064.72,"body":"that newspapers often were"},{"startTime":1059.98,"endTime":1064.72,"body":"guilty of what he called abuses,"},{"startTime":1064.72,"endTime":1068.74,"body":"and that is a number of falsehoods,"},{"startTime":1064.72,"endTime":1068.74,"body":"he was indeed the target"},{"startTime":1068.74,"endTime":1070.97,"body":"of many falsehoods in the newspaper."},{"startTime":1070.97,"endTime":1072.65,"body":"And according to Dolly Madison,"},{"startTime":1072.65,"endTime":1074.36,"body":"he generally laughed at them,"},{"startTime":1074.36,"endTime":1078.86,"body":"but he defended the"},{"startTime":1074.36,"endTime":1078.86,"body":"necessity of having to put up"},{"startTime":1078.86,"endTime":1080.27,"body":"with these abuses"},{"startTime":1080.27,"endTime":1085.04,"body":"because the benefits of a free"},{"startTime":1080.27,"endTime":1085.04,"body":"press outweighed the dangers."},{"startTime":1085.04,"endTime":1087.86,"body":"- So Lynn, you mentioned Madison hopes"},{"startTime":1087.86,"endTime":1091.79,"body":"to enlarge this"},{"startTime":1087.86,"endTime":1091.79,"body":"understanding of our rights."},{"startTime":1091.79,"endTime":1095.75,"body":"Now when I think about how that"},{"startTime":1091.79,"endTime":1095.75,"body":"applies today, I can't help"},{"startTime":1095.75,"endTime":1098.06,"body":"but think about this current situation"},{"startTime":1098.06,"endTime":1099.62,"body":"with the court preparing"},{"startTime":1099.62,"endTime":1104.3,"body":"to hear arguments about this"},{"startTime":1099.62,"endTime":1104.3,"body":"protecting Americans from"},{"startTime":1104.3,"endTime":1107.63,"body":"foreign adversary"},{"startTime":1104.3,"endTime":1107.63,"body":"controlled applications act."},{"startTime":1107.63,"endTime":1112.4,"body":"Now that's the act that Joe"},{"startTime":1107.63,"endTime":1112.4,"body":"Biden passed in April of 2024."},{"startTime":1112.4,"endTime":1117.14,"body":"And the real concern there is"},{"startTime":1112.4,"endTime":1117.14,"body":"that certain platforms such"},{"startTime":1117.14,"endTime":1119.78,"body":"as TikTok are owned by foreign companies."},{"startTime":1119.78,"endTime":1123.26,"body":"So in this case, TikTok is owned by Ance,"},{"startTime":1123.26,"endTime":1124.82,"body":"which is a Chinese company."},{"startTime":1124.82,"endTime":1129.02,"body":"So there's concerns about"},{"startTime":1124.82,"endTime":1129.02,"body":"national security here."},{"startTime":1129.02,"endTime":1132.38,"body":"However, a lot of scholars, lawyers,"},{"startTime":1132.38,"endTime":1134.18,"body":"government officials have questioned,"},{"startTime":1134.18,"endTime":1136.91,"body":"does this violate the First Amendment,"},{"startTime":1136.91,"endTime":1138.62,"body":"this freedom of speech."},{"startTime":1138.62,"endTime":1140.21,"body":"And as you referenced,"},{"startTime":1140.21,"endTime":1142.91,"body":"this isn't the first"},{"startTime":1140.21,"endTime":1142.91,"body":"example of this in history."},{"startTime":1142.91,"endTime":1145.25,"body":"We have this sedition"},{"startTime":1142.91,"endTime":1145.25,"body":"act as you referenced,"},{"startTime":1145.25,"endTime":1147.5,"body":"but how can we understand the heart of"},{"startTime":1147.5,"endTime":1149.6,"body":"what Madison was trying to achieve"},{"startTime":1149.6,"endTime":1153.17,"body":"by deepening our understanding,"},{"startTime":1149.6,"endTime":1153.17,"body":"seeing this freedom"},{"startTime":1153.17,"endTime":1155.09,"body":"of speech in a broader context?"},{"startTime":1155.09,"endTime":1157.73,"body":"How can we understand that"},{"startTime":1157.73,"endTime":1160.46,"body":"and make sense of it today"},{"startTime":1157.73,"endTime":1160.46,"body":"when we look at cases such"},{"startTime":1160.46,"endTime":1162.89,"body":"as the one going before the court?"},{"startTime":1162.89,"endTime":1165.26,"body":"- Yeah, and that is the tricky question,"},{"startTime":1165.26,"endTime":1166.31,"body":"and I want"},{"startTime":1166.31,"endTime":1170.24,"body":"to tiptoe very carefully into this"},{"startTime":1170.24,"endTime":1171.8,"body":"difficult question."},{"startTime":1171.8,"endTime":1175.97,"body":"So I want to bring out some parallels"},{"startTime":1175.97,"endTime":1178.4,"body":"with Madison's situation,"},{"startTime":1178.4,"endTime":1181.55,"body":"but I also want to emphasize"},{"startTime":1178.4,"endTime":1181.55,"body":"that there are some elements"},{"startTime":1181.55,"endTime":1186.02,"body":"to this current TikTok case,"},{"startTime":1181.55,"endTime":1186.02,"body":"which are not like anything"},{"startTime":1186.02,"endTime":1187.64,"body":"that Madison faced."},{"startTime":1187.64,"endTime":1190.7,"body":"And so I wanna do a little bit of both so"},{"startTime":1190.7,"endTime":1192.89,"body":"that I give ammunition I guess"},{"startTime":1192.89,"endTime":1194.78,"body":"to both sides of the question."},{"startTime":1194.78,"endTime":1197.99,"body":"So on the question of national security,"},{"startTime":1197.99,"endTime":1202.46,"body":"Madison is very clear that even the fear"},{"startTime":1202.46,"endTime":1205.91,"body":"of foreign danger is not sufficient"},{"startTime":1205.91,"endTime":1208.76,"body":"to justify the restriction of rights."},{"startTime":1208.76,"endTime":1210.41,"body":"So if you look at the Alien"},{"startTime":1210.41,"endTime":1213.05,"body":"and Sedition Act, that was very similar"},{"startTime":1213.05,"endTime":1214.82,"body":"to the current situation."},{"startTime":1214.82,"endTime":1218.09,"body":"The reason why the Alien Act was attached"},{"startTime":1218.09,"endTime":1219.77,"body":"to the Sedition Act is"},{"startTime":1219.77,"endTime":1224.66,"body":"because John Adams was entering"},{"startTime":1219.77,"endTime":1224.66,"body":"this quasi war with France."},{"startTime":1224.66,"endTime":1227.78,"body":"And so we are currently"},{"startTime":1224.66,"endTime":1227.78,"body":"in a quasi war with China."},{"startTime":1227.78,"endTime":1230.33,"body":"They are considered an adversarial nation,"},{"startTime":1230.33,"endTime":1231.59,"body":"but we're not at war with them."},{"startTime":1231.59,"endTime":1232.7,"body":"It's similar to"},{"startTime":1232.7,"endTime":1235.58,"body":"what the Adams administration"},{"startTime":1232.7,"endTime":1235.58,"body":"was facing with France."},{"startTime":1235.58,"endTime":1236.99,"body":"And therefore"},{"startTime":1236.99,"endTime":1240.71,"body":"that in Adam's mind"},{"startTime":1236.99,"endTime":1240.71,"body":"justified the restriction"},{"startTime":1240.71,"endTime":1244.76,"body":"of rights not only to Americans"},{"startTime":1240.71,"endTime":1244.76,"body":"who were trying to speak"},{"startTime":1244.76,"endTime":1246.02,"body":"and write freely,"},{"startTime":1246.02,"endTime":1249.3,"body":"but also to aliens, foreigners"},{"startTime":1249.3,"endTime":1251.34,"body":"who were living within the United States,"},{"startTime":1251.34,"endTime":1255.63,"body":"that Adams felt he could"},{"startTime":1251.34,"endTime":1255.63,"body":"summarily ship off back"},{"startTime":1255.63,"endTime":1259.59,"body":"to their home countries without"},{"startTime":1255.63,"endTime":1259.59,"body":"any kind of due process."},{"startTime":1259.59,"endTime":1262.23,"body":"And Madison was opposed to both of these."},{"startTime":1262.23,"endTime":1266.43,"body":"So even though the rationale"},{"startTime":1266.43,"endTime":1270.75,"body":"for the Alienist edition act"},{"startTime":1266.43,"endTime":1270.75,"body":"was domestic security against"},{"startTime":1270.75,"endTime":1273.15,"body":"foreign threats, Madison"},{"startTime":1270.75,"endTime":1273.15,"body":"did not think that"},{"startTime":1273.15,"endTime":1275.49,"body":"that rationale was sufficient."},{"startTime":1275.49,"endTime":1280.49,"body":"And a similar example could be"},{"startTime":1275.49,"endTime":1280.49,"body":"said within the war of 1812,"},{"startTime":1280.86,"endTime":1284.4,"body":"a lot of people were"},{"startTime":1280.86,"endTime":1284.4,"body":"urging President Madison"},{"startTime":1284.4,"endTime":1286.83,"body":"to restrict certain rights"},{"startTime":1286.83,"endTime":1290.28,"body":"because there were a lot of writers,"},{"startTime":1290.28,"endTime":1293.55,"body":"especially in New England"},{"startTime":1290.28,"endTime":1293.55,"body":"that were arguing in favor"},{"startTime":1293.55,"endTime":1298.44,"body":"of secession and were actively"},{"startTime":1293.55,"endTime":1298.44,"body":"colluding with the enemy."},{"startTime":1298.44,"endTime":1301.86,"body":"And this was a real war, a"},{"startTime":1298.44,"endTime":1301.86,"body":"hot war, not a quasi war."},{"startTime":1301.86,"endTime":1306.03,"body":"And Madison, when he was"},{"startTime":1301.86,"endTime":1306.03,"body":"president, always resisted that."},{"startTime":1306.03,"endTime":1310.08,"body":"So Adam's compromise"},{"startTime":1306.03,"endTime":1310.08,"body":"rights for a quasi war."},{"startTime":1310.08,"endTime":1314.16,"body":"President Madison was not"},{"startTime":1310.08,"endTime":1314.16,"body":"willing to compromise rights even"},{"startTime":1314.16,"endTime":1315.63,"body":"for a foreign war."},{"startTime":1315.63,"endTime":1319.98,"body":"And indeed during this"},{"startTime":1315.63,"endTime":1319.98,"body":"period, during this period"},{"startTime":1319.98,"endTime":1323.7,"body":"of the Aliens Sedition Act,"},{"startTime":1319.98,"endTime":1323.7,"body":"Madison mused privately"},{"startTime":1323.7,"endTime":1325.38,"body":"to Jefferson, that it was"},{"startTime":1325.38,"endTime":1329.43,"body":"during these periods when"},{"startTime":1325.38,"endTime":1329.43,"body":"people felt threatened"},{"startTime":1329.43,"endTime":1331.62,"body":"that rights were most at risk"},{"startTime":1331.62,"endTime":1332.85,"body":"and that's when he thought"},{"startTime":1332.85,"endTime":1335.58,"body":"that rights should be bolstered most."},{"startTime":1335.58,"endTime":1340.05,"body":"- So in essence, Madison"},{"startTime":1335.58,"endTime":1340.05,"body":"doesn't believe that the fear"},{"startTime":1340.05,"endTime":1344.34,"body":"of foreign interference is a"},{"startTime":1340.05,"endTime":1344.34,"body":"reason to deny rights. That's"},{"startTime":1344.34,"endTime":1345.34,"body":"- Correct."},{"startTime":1345.34,"endTime":1349.68,"body":"So there is my Madisonian"},{"startTime":1345.34,"endTime":1349.68,"body":"argument in favor"},{"startTime":1349.68,"endTime":1354.0,"body":"of those who think that the"},{"startTime":1349.68,"endTime":1354.0,"body":"TikTok ban is unconstitutional."},{"startTime":1354.0,"endTime":1356.82,"body":"But having said that,"},{"startTime":1354.0,"endTime":1356.82,"body":"I wanna say a few words"},{"startTime":1356.82,"endTime":1358.71,"body":"for the other side as well."},{"startTime":1358.71,"endTime":1362.52,"body":"And that is where this"},{"startTime":1358.71,"endTime":1362.52,"body":"case is not like anything"},{"startTime":1362.52,"endTime":1365.37,"body":"that Madison had encountered, and that is"},{"startTime":1365.37,"endTime":1367.17,"body":"because TikTok,"},{"startTime":1367.17,"endTime":1371.28,"body":"which I understand is"},{"startTime":1367.17,"endTime":1371.28,"body":"the number one platform"},{"startTime":1371.28,"endTime":1376.02,"body":"for communication among those"},{"startTime":1371.28,"endTime":1376.02,"body":"who use social media is owned"},{"startTime":1376.02,"endTime":1377.7,"body":"by a foreign company."},{"startTime":1377.7,"endTime":1381.3,"body":"And what I wanna emphasize"},{"startTime":1377.7,"endTime":1381.3,"body":"is that the Bill of Rights,"},{"startTime":1381.3,"endTime":1384.36,"body":"as broad as they are, apply only"},{"startTime":1384.36,"endTime":1389.28,"body":"to American citizens and"},{"startTime":1384.36,"endTime":1389.28,"body":"foreigners who live in America."},{"startTime":1389.28,"endTime":1392.28,"body":"The Bill of Rights does"},{"startTime":1389.28,"endTime":1392.28,"body":"not protect the rights"},{"startTime":1392.28,"endTime":1394.71,"body":"of foreigners living abroad."},{"startTime":1394.71,"endTime":1396.66,"body":"So in Madison's time,"},{"startTime":1396.66,"endTime":1401.66,"body":"Frenchmen could not claim First"},{"startTime":1396.66,"endTime":1401.66,"body":"Amendment rights in France."},{"startTime":1401.85,"endTime":1404.55,"body":"And therefore to the extent"},{"startTime":1404.55,"endTime":1407.34,"body":"that the TikTok case is about whether"},{"startTime":1407.34,"endTime":1410.43,"body":"or not the owners of TikTok the bite dance"},{"startTime":1410.43,"endTime":1413.85,"body":"that you are referring to"},{"startTime":1410.43,"endTime":1413.85,"body":"have First Amendment rights,"},{"startTime":1413.85,"endTime":1417.66,"body":"I don't think that that can be upheld."},{"startTime":1417.66,"endTime":1419.64,"body":"There are other considerations"},{"startTime":1419.64,"endTime":1421.8,"body":"and I'm sure that they"},{"startTime":1419.64,"endTime":1421.8,"body":"will come up in the case."},{"startTime":1421.8,"endTime":1424.11,"body":"These go beyond Madison's considerations."},{"startTime":1424.11,"endTime":1425.14,"body":"Again, to my knowledge,"},{"startTime":1425.14,"endTime":1428.62,"body":"it was never brought up"},{"startTime":1425.14,"endTime":1428.62,"body":"while he was speaking about"},{"startTime":1428.62,"endTime":1429.85,"body":"freedom of the press."},{"startTime":1429.85,"endTime":1432.67,"body":"But in subsequent court cases,"},{"startTime":1432.67,"endTime":1435.37,"body":"they have talked about"},{"startTime":1432.67,"endTime":1435.37,"body":"the rights of American"},{"startTime":1435.37,"endTime":1438.43,"body":"to receive foreign news."},{"startTime":1438.43,"endTime":1441.37,"body":"And so that has been upheld"},{"startTime":1438.43,"endTime":1441.37,"body":"by the Supreme Court,"},{"startTime":1441.37,"endTime":1442.51,"body":"even though I don't think"},{"startTime":1442.51,"endTime":1445.99,"body":"that there's an analog in Madison's time."},{"startTime":1445.99,"endTime":1448.6,"body":"But again, the question will be whether"},{"startTime":1448.6,"endTime":1452.05,"body":"or not Americans can still"},{"startTime":1448.6,"endTime":1452.05,"body":"receive freely foreign"},{"startTime":1452.05,"endTime":1454.18,"body":"news without TikTok."},{"startTime":1454.18,"endTime":1458.98,"body":"So these are some of the"},{"startTime":1454.18,"endTime":1458.98,"body":"sticky widgets that are going"},{"startTime":1458.98,"endTime":1461.68,"body":"to be coming into play in"},{"startTime":1458.98,"endTime":1461.68,"body":"the court case. I imagine"},{"startTime":1462.61,"endTime":1465.01,"body":"- As we wrap up our"},{"startTime":1462.61,"endTime":1465.01,"body":"conversation today, Lynn,"},{"startTime":1465.01,"endTime":1469.21,"body":"I wanna reference something"},{"startTime":1465.01,"endTime":1469.21,"body":"you mentioned earlier about"},{"startTime":1469.21,"endTime":1473.29,"body":"freedom of speech being"},{"startTime":1469.21,"endTime":1473.29,"body":"a bulwark of liberty."},{"startTime":1473.29,"endTime":1476.68,"body":"Can you say a little bit"},{"startTime":1473.29,"endTime":1476.68,"body":"more about that in context"},{"startTime":1476.68,"endTime":1478.36,"body":"to Madison, but then perhaps bring it up"},{"startTime":1478.36,"endTime":1479.74,"body":"to the present as well?"},{"startTime":1479.74,"endTime":1481.48,"body":"- I'm glad that you brought that up"},{"startTime":1481.48,"endTime":1485.17,"body":"because I think that that"},{"startTime":1481.48,"endTime":1485.17,"body":"is a really important point"},{"startTime":1485.17,"endTime":1488.38,"body":"to understand when trying to grapple"},{"startTime":1488.38,"endTime":1490.99,"body":"with Madison's understanding"},{"startTime":1488.38,"endTime":1490.99,"body":"of freedom of speech"},{"startTime":1490.99,"endTime":1492.28,"body":"and freedom of press."},{"startTime":1492.28,"endTime":1496.84,"body":"Because a lot of people today"},{"startTime":1492.28,"endTime":1496.84,"body":"talk about free speech as if"},{"startTime":1496.84,"endTime":1498.46,"body":"that were the end."},{"startTime":1498.46,"endTime":1502.03,"body":"What we want is the most"},{"startTime":1498.46,"endTime":1502.03,"body":"possible speech imaginable,"},{"startTime":1502.03,"endTime":1505.48,"body":"throw in hate speech,"},{"startTime":1502.03,"endTime":1505.48,"body":"throw in falsehoods, all"},{"startTime":1505.48,"endTime":1507.91,"body":"of it is good as long as it's free."},{"startTime":1507.91,"endTime":1510.25,"body":"And that's not Madison's approach."},{"startTime":1510.25,"endTime":1513.7,"body":"So Madison defended freedom"},{"startTime":1510.25,"endTime":1513.7,"body":"of religion, for instance,"},{"startTime":1513.7,"endTime":1518.53,"body":"because of the invaluable"},{"startTime":1513.7,"endTime":1518.53,"body":"liberty that that is,"},{"startTime":1518.53,"endTime":1522.31,"body":"that what freedom of"},{"startTime":1518.53,"endTime":1522.31,"body":"religion is, is the exercise"},{"startTime":1522.31,"endTime":1524.29,"body":"of one's duty towards his creator."},{"startTime":1524.29,"endTime":1526.21,"body":"Okay? So that's why it's important"},{"startTime":1526.21,"endTime":1528.31,"body":"to protect in and of itself."},{"startTime":1528.31,"endTime":1532.21,"body":"Freedom of scree and freedom"},{"startTime":1528.31,"endTime":1532.21,"body":"of press are not important"},{"startTime":1532.21,"endTime":1535.24,"body":"for themselves so much"},{"startTime":1532.21,"endTime":1535.24,"body":"as they are important"},{"startTime":1535.24,"endTime":1538.6,"body":"for something else that"},{"startTime":1535.24,"endTime":1538.6,"body":"lies beyond itself."},{"startTime":1538.6,"endTime":1540.67,"body":"Now, one of them is"},{"startTime":1538.6,"endTime":1540.67,"body":"what you just mentioned,"},{"startTime":1540.67,"endTime":1542.35,"body":"the bulwark of liberty."},{"startTime":1542.35,"endTime":1545.74,"body":"If you are in a form of"},{"startTime":1542.35,"endTime":1545.74,"body":"government like a monarchy"},{"startTime":1545.74,"endTime":1548.86,"body":"or an aristocracy, it's not"},{"startTime":1545.74,"endTime":1548.86,"body":"important for the people"},{"startTime":1548.86,"endTime":1550.84,"body":"to be informed because the people"},{"startTime":1550.84,"endTime":1552.97,"body":"who are making the"},{"startTime":1550.84,"endTime":1552.97,"body":"decisions are the elite."},{"startTime":1552.97,"endTime":1555.67,"body":"It's important for them"},{"startTime":1552.97,"endTime":1555.67,"body":"to have free speech."},{"startTime":1555.67,"endTime":1559.96,"body":"And that's why the British"},{"startTime":1555.67,"endTime":1559.96,"body":"notion of free speech was limited"},{"startTime":1559.96,"endTime":1563.68,"body":"to those in parliament,"},{"startTime":1559.96,"endTime":1563.68,"body":"not to the citizens."},{"startTime":1563.68,"endTime":1566.14,"body":"But the reason why the"},{"startTime":1563.68,"endTime":1566.14,"body":"American understanding"},{"startTime":1566.14,"endTime":1568.27,"body":"of free speech is broader is"},{"startTime":1568.27,"endTime":1570.34,"body":"because in America it's understood"},{"startTime":1570.34,"endTime":1572.83,"body":"that the people are their own rulers,"},{"startTime":1572.83,"endTime":1575.05,"body":"therefore they need to be informed."},{"startTime":1575.05,"endTime":1577.99,"body":"And that's why free"},{"startTime":1575.05,"endTime":1577.99,"body":"speech is necessary, not"},{"startTime":1577.99,"endTime":1580.63,"body":"because all speech is good, but"},{"startTime":1580.63,"endTime":1583.27,"body":"because freedom of speech is necessary"},{"startTime":1583.27,"endTime":1585.85,"body":"to inform the citizenry."},{"startTime":1585.85,"endTime":1588.46,"body":"And therefore, freedom"},{"startTime":1585.85,"endTime":1588.46,"body":"of speech is important"},{"startTime":1588.46,"endTime":1591.49,"body":"because of what it brings about freedom"},{"startTime":1591.49,"endTime":1592.6,"body":"of speech is important"},{"startTime":1592.6,"endTime":1596.17,"body":"because it is necessary"},{"startTime":1592.6,"endTime":1596.17,"body":"for the pursuit of truth."},{"startTime":1596.17,"endTime":1597.52,"body":"And I think"},{"startTime":1597.52,"endTime":1602.17,"body":"that we can cherish this freedom"},{"startTime":1597.52,"endTime":1602.17,"body":"only if we understand the"},{"startTime":1602.17,"endTime":1604.49,"body":"goal towards which it ends."},{"startTime":1604.49,"endTime":1607.16,"body":"And therefore, even"},{"startTime":1604.49,"endTime":1607.16,"body":"though freedom of speech"},{"startTime":1607.16,"endTime":1610.7,"body":"by necessity has to protect"},{"startTime":1607.16,"endTime":1610.7,"body":"falsehoods, it's not"},{"startTime":1610.7,"endTime":1613.34,"body":"because falsehoods are"},{"startTime":1610.7,"endTime":1613.34,"body":"valuable, it's rather"},{"startTime":1613.34,"endTime":1614.75,"body":"because those claims"},{"startTime":1614.75,"endTime":1618.68,"body":"that are considered falsehoods"},{"startTime":1614.75,"endTime":1618.68,"body":"must have free play in order"},{"startTime":1618.68,"endTime":1622.49,"body":"to test them and decide whether"},{"startTime":1618.68,"endTime":1622.49,"body":"or not they're falsehoods."},{"startTime":1622.49,"endTime":1624.44,"body":"But we always need to"},{"startTime":1622.49,"endTime":1624.44,"body":"remember that freedom"},{"startTime":1624.44,"endTime":1627.11,"body":"of speech is valuable not"},{"startTime":1627.11,"endTime":1630.68,"body":"because of itself so"},{"startTime":1627.11,"endTime":1630.68,"body":"much as what it points to"},{"startTime":1630.68,"endTime":1633.71,"body":"that liberty depends on"},{"startTime":1630.68,"endTime":1633.71,"body":"the pursuit of truth,"},{"startTime":1633.71,"endTime":1637.46,"body":"and truth is the end not"},{"startTime":1633.71,"endTime":1637.46,"body":"all manner of speech."},{"startTime":1637.46,"endTime":1641.09,"body":"- Well, this has given me"},{"startTime":1637.46,"endTime":1641.09,"body":"much fodder for thought, Lynn,"},{"startTime":1641.09,"endTime":1642.74,"body":"especially as we watch the news"},{"startTime":1642.74,"endTime":1644.57,"body":"and see what happens with this case."},{"startTime":1644.57,"endTime":1647.72,"body":"And our conversation helped"},{"startTime":1644.57,"endTime":1647.72,"body":"me understand just the true"},{"startTime":1647.72,"endTime":1650.33,"body":"level of nuance that's involved here."},{"startTime":1650.33,"endTime":1651.83,"body":"You referenced Madison"},{"startTime":1651.83,"endTime":1655.22,"body":"and the thought process that"},{"startTime":1651.83,"endTime":1655.22,"body":"was happening in his head,"},{"startTime":1655.22,"endTime":1658.43,"body":"but the conversations he was"},{"startTime":1655.22,"endTime":1658.43,"body":"having with his contemporaries,"},{"startTime":1658.43,"endTime":1660.23,"body":"Jefferson and Adams,"},{"startTime":1660.23,"endTime":1662.03,"body":"and how we"},{"startTime":1662.03,"endTime":1665.21,"body":"as a society a collective"},{"startTime":1662.03,"endTime":1665.21,"body":"interpret the First"},{"startTime":1665.21,"endTime":1667.07,"body":"Amendment over time."},{"startTime":1667.07,"endTime":1670.22,"body":"And I'm gonna be thinking a"},{"startTime":1667.07,"endTime":1670.22,"body":"lot about what Madison thought,"},{"startTime":1670.22,"endTime":1673.04,"body":"even though perhaps we"},{"startTime":1670.22,"endTime":1673.04,"body":"can't definitively say"},{"startTime":1673.04,"endTime":1675.2,"body":"what his comments would be on this case,"},{"startTime":1675.2,"endTime":1677.9,"body":"I think we can glean some insight from"},{"startTime":1677.9,"endTime":1680.93,"body":"what you've talked about today"},{"startTime":1677.9,"endTime":1680.93,"body":"from your research on him"},{"startTime":1680.93,"endTime":1682.55,"body":"to have a better understanding of"},{"startTime":1682.55,"endTime":1684.71,"body":"how this case may play out."},{"startTime":1684.71,"endTime":1686.42,"body":"So I wanna thank you for joining us today"},{"startTime":1686.42,"endTime":1687.92,"body":"to provide that insight."},{"startTime":1687.92,"endTime":1692.0,"body":"- Katie, I wanna thank you. It"},{"startTime":1687.92,"endTime":1692.0,"body":"has been an absolute delight."},{"startTime":1692.0,"endTime":1693.83,"body":"I will be ready"},{"startTime":1693.83,"endTime":1697.07,"body":"to hop on the microphone"},{"startTime":1693.83,"endTime":1697.07,"body":"anytime you are ready"},{"startTime":1697.07,"endTime":1698.24,"body":"to have me again."},{"startTime":1698.24,"endTime":1701.21,"body":"I love talking to you and your audience"},{"startTime":1701.21,"endTime":1702.53,"body":"- And we love hearing from you."},{"startTime":1702.53,"endTime":1704.57,"body":"So thank you again for being with us"},{"startTime":1704.57,"endTime":1706.1,"body":"and I wanna thank all those"},{"startTime":1706.1,"endTime":1707.96,"body":"who are listening to this show today."},{"startTime":1707.96,"endTime":1710.66,"body":"I hope you'll share it with"},{"startTime":1707.96,"endTime":1710.66,"body":"your family and friends."},{"startTime":1710.66,"endTime":1714.23,"body":"And please join us again"},{"startTime":1710.66,"endTime":1714.23,"body":"in two weeks as we continue"},{"startTime":1714.23,"endTime":1716.24,"body":"to consider the Constitution."}]}