The Mosaic of Montpelier

In this special episode of Consider The Constitution, Dr. Katie Crawford-Lackey is joined by Dr. Kelley Fanto Deetz, Montpelier's Chief Advancement Officer, to explore how James Madison's Montpelier reveals history's most essential truth: no story stands alone. Deetz reveals why Madison's constitutional genius, Dolley's political mastery, and the enslaved community's foundational role must be understood as interconnected tiles in one complex picture. From diplomatic dinners served by enslaved hands to architectural choices that masked uncomfortable truths, every detail illuminates the contradictions of liberty being born on a landscape built by bondage.

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announcer (00:01):

Welcome to Consider the Constitution, the podcast that cuts through the noise and provides insight into constitutional issues that directly affect every American hosted by Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey. In featuring interviews with constitutional scholars, policy and subject matter experts, heritage professionals and legal practitioners, we examine the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Consider the Constitution is brought to you by the Robert H. Smith Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (00:37):

Hello and welcome back to Consider the Constitution. I'm your host, Dr. Katie Crawford Lackey with James Madison's Montpelier. As stewards of Madison's home Implantation, we at Montpelier are dedicated to exploring his legacy as the father of the Constitution, architect of the Bill of Rights and fourth president of the United States. But there's even more, in fact, much more to the history at Montpelier. For example, we have Dolly Madison, the enslaved community, and the wider plantation landscape, and we interweave these stories into a rich and complex history, and it's more complex than any one single tour or program can capture. We uncover these connections through the archeology here, through archival records, through the landscape, oral histories, and material culture. And all of this together reveals how daily life at Montpelier really comes together and is inseparable from the politics and the shaping of a nation. And today we're going to explore how all of these different stories come together. We'll be looking at these intersections with the help of a fellow staff member here at Montpelier, Dr. Kelley Fanto Deetz. She is the Chief Advancement Officer. She's an archeologist, a historian, and the author of the book Bound to the Fire, how Virginia's Enslaved Cooks helped Invent American Cuisine. Kelly joined Montpelier in April of 2025 after seven years at Stratford Hall where she oversaw collections and public engagement. So Kelly, welcome to Consider the Constitution. Thank

Kelley Fanto Deetz (02:23):

You for having me.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (02:24):

So one of the things I really admire about your approach to history, Kelly, is that you don't separate these stories into silos. You really try to connect it and you make history fun whenever you talk about it. So I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about how you work with the physical objects, food ways, storytelling, all of these ways that you bring history to life. How do you bring this together to shape our understanding of Montpelier as a whole?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (02:53):

I love that question because again, as you said, this is something that's sort of central to the ways in which I think about history and I talk about history. So for me, history is more than just a timeline. I was a college professor for a decade, and people came into my classrooms thinking, oh, I hate history. It's the most boring thing ever. I can't remember names and dates. And I had to push back against that pretty much on day one because history is the story of human life. It's everything from what we eat to what we think to what we do. And it's those sort of very tactical and emotional things that make us connect with history in ways that a timeline does not. So as the child of an archeologist, an archeologist myself, learning history through digging in the dirt and touching the objects of the past was my way, my entryway into the field. And it allowed me to view history immediately in a very nuanced way. It was not a timeline. It wasn't about names and dates, it was about the effect of objects, the relationships between people and how those relationships can inform us today and then be able to have us also better understand the past and all of its facets.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (03:58):

I love how you describe how you talk about history. When I was in school, this happened on this date and it was very disconnected from my life. What was important to me. I felt no connection to it. And so it was by being at sites like Montpelier, where you start to see your story reflected. It's not devoid of context. And you mentioned you come from this background of archeology where material culture and landscape is really important at Montpelier or at the other sites that you've worked at. How do you layer in this material culture as you talk about history? How do you bring that into the story you're telling?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (04:37):

That's a great question. So everybody has stuff, right? Some stuff is really important to people. Other stuff you throw away, all of it ends up in the garbage at one point in life. And at some point it's also underground for thousands of years as an archeologist, you're digging up people's garbage. So if you want to call it that, but thinking about the material world, everything that a human touches and adjusts or creates has something to do with who they are. So they're reflected in that object. So everything that you see around you, whether it's the desk that you're sitting at, whether it's the technology that you're using was created because of a human need and a human desire, and those things mean something. And if you start thinking about the human mind and you think about the ways in which evolution has brought us new technologies and even the evolution of food ways and cooking utensils.

(05:26):

I mean, everything has an evolutionary timeline to it. And so objects have the stoves back in the day or a fire when they figured out what fire was. And now we've got these crazy ovens that I don't even know how to use. There's too many buttons. And so all of these things come from humans and sort of the context of history, but adapting to change, thinking forward, right? And for me, looking at history, and I hate the phrase, those that do not study history are doomed to repeat it. We repeat history constantly with our eyes open. For me, studying history is studying the reasons people do things, learning lessons from your ancestors, learning lessons from people in the past, bad stories are just as important as good stories because you don't have the full human experience without all of those experiences wrapped into one.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (06:15):

It's fascinating because as a public historian, material culture is very important. The archives are very important, but you reference thought, the thought process, the reason behind things. And I think when we approach history in that very timeline centered, as you mentioned, are just the names and dates, we kind of missed what is driving this process, what's driving people and Madison, when we think about his legacy, he helped design a system of government that continues to shape our democracy today. How can we at Montpelier use Madison's political thought? So what's driving his motives, his context, his background? How can we connect that with the history of the enslaved community to spark conversations about what does our democracy mean today?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (07:04):

So if you think about that period when Madison was having those thoughts and really thinking about what this constitution was going to be, he was living on a landscape that was completely supported by enslaved labor. They were serving him his food, they were cleaning his dishes, they were working in and around him. So to divorce that day-to-day exposure. And honestly, there was a lot of cultural exchange happening there too, and that's a different conversation. But to take that away from that man, it takes away his world around him. It takes away the things that he was thinking about every day. There's no way he went through a day without thinking about the contradictions of liberty and what was happening there with the enslaved community. These conversations were happening all over the world. We were kind of late in some ways at the United States of abolishing slavery.

(07:50):

And so that contradiction is something that I guarantee kept them up at night and other founding fathers as well. But if you think about these men who have been held up in so many ways on a timeline without the dynamic sort of depth that they deserve themselves, you think of them as these sort of shrines that delivered certain things on a certain date because that's how we're taught to revere these founding fathers, when in reality they had complicated lives, they had all kinds of emotions, they struggled. They were all vastly diverse in ways of their thought and thinking about these really important issues about freedom and who we're going to be as a new nation and ignoring the not only central role that enslaved labor paid to the economy, but to the culture of this country is incredibly shortsighted. And you cannot see Madison without understanding all of the people around him that supported the wealth, that supported him to be able to have the leisure to sit around and think and create this country. And the constitution.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (08:51):

200 years ago, last month, the Marquis de Lafayette Montpelier on his trip home, he visited Montpelier the year before on his final farewell trip in the States. And as he's leaving to depart back to France, he stops by Montpelier again. And we know he's talking to Madison about the issue of slavery and why after the colony fought this revolution where now the United States, why does slavery still exist? And these dinners that Madison and Lafayette are having are being hosted by the enslaved community. Paul Jennings, for example, is known for his role as this person who serves them. He knows how to do this art of service as an enslaved man who was with Madison and the White House. So Madison was a smart guy. We know that Madison knows what he's talking about. He understands the point that Lafayette is making. Meanwhile, enslaved people like Paul Jennings are standing in the room serving this meal. So there is definitely a lot of deep thought about the really heavy issues that are still plaguing America even after the Constitution is written. So to your point, we know that there's a very intellectual process happening, and we use all of these different sources to help inform our understanding of that.

Kelley Fanto Deetz (10:10):

And what you see as well in the material world, in the landscape, in the built environment are responses to those kinds of stresses that were happening in enduring diplomatic cuisine is where you start seeing these plantation owners, people like Madison, Jefferson, et cetera, mask the enslaved laborers, whether it be having a dumb waiter when the waiters during this period at these larger plantation estates were enslaved waiters, having someone that's not able to listen about conversations about freedom, about the hypocrisy that they're all discussing. You see this in their letters, but that was definitely part of dinner conversation. And so to allow that kind of safe space, they started implementing these ways in which to remove black bodies out of that space to have these kinds of conversations. And you see this across most of the southern us, most of even up and down the East coast. And you see these kinds of responses in the architecture and in the objects in the house.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (11:06):

And the Temple of Liberty here at Montpelier I think is a perfect example of that. That is the logo of Montpelier. It's this temple type structure that's built around 18 10, 18 11. When Madison is president of the United States. He knows he's going to be entertaining, and it serves as a place for him and Dolly to sit outside under this covered domed roof, but it also serves as an ice house, and it's more than just having ice in there to preserve the food and the drinks and all that. But it also serves as a space where there is black labor happening, slave labor. And I think it's an adequate symbol of Montpelier being, this is a very complex history. It symbolizes liberty, but then it's also about slavery and how do we make sense of both happening literally in the same place at the same time?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (11:56):

Absolutely. When I think about iconic structures like our temple or other buildings across the US during that period, you have these leisure spaces and there's a very sterile way, just like the timeline is a very sterile way of looking at history. There's this way that you can look at that and think of like, oh, there's Dolly and James watching birds, and it's this sort of sterile space, and it's all very quaint when in reality you're going to have a landscape, a visual landscape that is filled with enslaved labor, people coming in and out. Things did not smell very nice back then. So even thinking about dining rooms and kitchens during this era, public history sites tend to want to sterilize things because they don't want to make things look dirty. For me, the dirty history is the history that I lean into. That's what makes me connect to the past, that's what makes me understand what happened.

(12:47):

And so something that is presented in a very sterile way is just one dimensional, and it's really boring, and that's not going to get anybody leaning into that story. You talk about maybe the fact that Dolly and James were sitting there and maybe they were watching the enslaved laborers come and get ice out there and talking about what was going to be for dinner and all those textures of daily life. That to me is interesting. That is a story that is something that I would want to lean into and know more about every single person in that space, their interactions, the ways in which they talk to one another, and their purpose on the site, whether it was the mistress of the house or the blacksmith.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (13:25):

And as you said in taking that complexity away and kind of sterilizing that history, I think it does a disservice to Madison too, because we know from his own writings, his words that slavery, for example, is one of the issues he really struggled with. Again, he's a very intelligent man, but he had a lot of conflicted thoughts about it. And by not addressing that, I think we do him a disservice. We don't recognize something, these ideas, these concepts that he struggled with every day for his entire life. And I want to ask you, Kelly, being an expert in this field, does want Peor and other historic sites have a responsibility to address this complexity, and how can we do so in a way that makes it accessible and understandable for mass audiences?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (14:14):

So I think museum sites, especially sites of former enslavement, have a great responsibility to tell all stories. I think all sites should be telling all stories, but in particular with founding father sites, especially as we're leaning into this big 250th anniversary of this nation, we really need to step back and think about the nuance of everybody involved. So putting somebody up on a pedestal does nobody any favors. The founding fathers, so many of them, I mean they were definitely of means, but they weren't all wealthy and they were young and they were scrappy, and they were brave, and I love that about them. And to understand their humanity and their emotions that went into making decisions that ended up birthing our nation is something that we all need to understand and lean into. I feel very strongly that you don't have to have a perfect person who on earth wants to have a perfect hero. I don't. I want to know somebody that struggled, that had issues that fell down and stood up. Those are the stories that make you stronger. Those are the stories that inspire. And I think that when you look at someone in Full 360, you can be inspired by so much of what they did, especially if they had complex histories.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (15:28):

Kelly, I want to pivot and talk a little bit about Dolly Madison because she is a very fascinating figure. She was raised a Quaker. Her family did own slaves at one point and then emancipated those slaves. But she marries Madison when she's 26. She's a young widow and he's quite a bit older in his early forties. So she's kind of leaving this Quaker lifestyle in Philadelphia behind marrying Madison. And she comes into his world while he is a congressman. So she's stepping into the political limelight essentially. And then he goes on to become head of the Department of State under Thomas Jefferson, and then of course he eventually becomes president. How does she not just step into this role and lead in the White House, but also at Montpelier, and how does she use social context like for example, just the dining table, again, thinking about the material culture and the table settings, how does she shine and what does she bring to the story?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (16:25):

I think it's really important to understand the role of these women during this period. They were not out there fighting the wars and getting shot at and all of those things, but they were doing a very sophisticated political dance at home. And those dances, dinner table, or whether it was a tea or a supper, were incredibly important for any sort of diplomatic conversation. So if you have people from overseas, if you have other patriots coming to your dinner table, you need to show off your best cuisine. Now, it's important, and my work has very much centered the enslaved chefs into this equation. We cannot leave them out, and those that served the people sitting there at the table, but Dolly Madison's role in hosting what would be termed as diplomatic cuisine, right? Sitting down having these dinners was essential, especially because Madison was so passive.

(17:19):

You have this dynamic sort of charismatic woman who is running the household. She is the one that is sitting people next to one another. She is the one that's orchestrating these conversations. We all know that things are voted on after lots of conversations, things are decided on after building trust. Those kinds of things happen over meals, over coffee, over breakfast. So without her, in that pivotal role, I don't see a lot of the things actually moving forward. And there were women in all of these homes and cooks and servers that were creating these meals to make sure that the guests were satisfied, that they were shown respect on the dinner table as well. You don't go to a head of state's house and eat pork and beans, you're going to have a three course meal at least. And so all of these connections are incredibly important in the birth of our nation as well. And thinking about the roles of the enslaved cooks, talking to Dolly to figure out what to make that night. I mean, it was a very intricate web of conversations, of stress, of labor, of pain, of pride. All of it was together. But again, that is the human experience. And so for me, looking into that nuance is where the good stuff is.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (18:33):

And that really connects back to how we started this conversation of it takes all of these stories interwoven together to understand these dinners that Madison is having these very important political dinners. That doesn't happen without the enslaved people who are growing, cultivating, cooking, serving the food. It doesn't happen without Dolly's political expertise, and as you said, seating certain people next to each other. And she's, I think, a political mind in her own right. Absolutely. And it's not just about Madison did this or wrote this or served in this position. There's a lot behind the scenes, or maybe that's not included as much in these history books or in our conversations as should be.

Kelley Fanto Deetz (19:16):

Yeah. And I think if she was born in a different era, she would've been a politician without any doubt. She would've been running things. You can tell that by the ways in which she ran her household. I think that there's things that you see in these traditional housewife roles over the centuries that I think play out very nicely if you parallel them with a lot of the work that the men were doing, whether it was 1950, whether it was in 1750. I think that understanding the challenges, whether it be that you were a woman during that period, or that you didn't have freedom because you were enslaved, definitely kept people from being their full capable self. And I think that that's something we have to look at very cautiously as we look backwards as well.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (20:00):

And it requires, as you said, this careful investigation or exploration into, again, not just records left behind because people of means typically wealthier people, usually men, they had more access to creating these documents, to paper, to writing utensils, to preserving it. So being able to rely on oral histories or again, architecture, the built landscape, the archeology objects, all of that is super important in order to be able to piece all of these things together to create this mosaic from which we understand history today.

Kelley Fanto Deetz (20:35):

Absolutely, and I think Mosaic is the perfect sort of phrase, and I use that a lot in my work, but it is important. Each tiles its own story, but together it makes up this big, beautiful, rich image of what actually exists, right? You have to step back from that. You can't just look at one or two tiles, you won't see the full picture. And I don't know anyone that doesn't like to step back on a mosaic and see all of the beauty, even if there's some spots that are a little broken and not as shiny. It's still part of the whole picture. And that is the beauty of history, and that is the beauty of so many of the things in our country that I've been studying for 30 years.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (21:09):

And Kelly, as I mentioned, so you are the Chief Advancement Officer here at Montpelier. You've been a part of the team here now for about six months, and you've been involved in Montpelier, maybe not as a staff member, but certainly as an involved community member for long before this. When you look at Montpelier today, what do you hope to see for the future of Montpelier?

Kelley Fanto Deetz (21:31):

I would like to see Montpelier become an open classroom. Most people that come to museums have not gone to college. A lot of the people that get their history are getting it from museums. The majority of Americans have not had that mosaic look at US history before. So their experience and their education after high school is very much coming from these museum sites. That said, we have a responsibility, and I think the ability here to be the most state of the art open classroom in the country. We have the Center for the Constitution. We have cutting edge archeological research happening with expeditions. We've got an incredible interpretive staff. We have dedicated historians that want to talk about history, but not the boring history. They want to tell you the nuance. They want to share the stories, the pain, the power, the struggle, the pride, all of these things. You can find every story that you're looking for, that you want to connect to, you can find here at Montpelier. And providing a space here where guests can come and really experience all of the storytelling that happens here, all of the history making that's happening here.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (22:40):

I find this idea of an open classroom so appealing. It's not just we at Montpelier tell you about history. I mean, we're really inviting people to explore and discover it for themselves. And that is so empowering. It's a way to indulge your curiosity.

Kelley Fanto Deetz (22:58):

I love the phrase indulge your curiosity, because we all know for a fact, people are curious. That's why everyone's addicted to TikTok, and people sit there looking for any kind of information quickly thrown into their brain on social media. We need to offer a space where you can slow down and take that curiosity and be able to fulfill it with experts, with people that are doing the work. I think about the work that we want to do in the temple, and it needs to be preserved, and we're starting that work, and it's going to be an incredibly exciting opportunity for the public to walk right up to this Madison era structure and see the actual preservation happening right in front of their eyes to talk to that person or the people that are working there and understand and ask questions about how they know the brick was a certain date, or what the brick was even made of, or who made the bricks. These kinds of questions are going to fuel our significance as a historic site and our success as well as a museum.

Katie Crawford-Lackey (23:56):

Well, Kelly, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today, for giving us really interesting ways to think about the past and how we can better understand not just the complexity, but the real human stories. Again, there's so much history, there's so many people's lives that were part of Montpelier past and present, and you and your vision and the work that you do here is really inspiring because it is this next step for taking all of this really important critical history and framing it in a way where we can have real conversations about it, where we can engage our audiences and give visitors some kind of connection to this property, to their history in a way that they will never forget. So thank you not just for being here, but for the work that you do, and thank you for having me. And I want to thank all of our listeners today. Please subscribe and share the show with your family and friends and tune in again soon as we consider the Constitution.