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What's the Tea with Ministry?
Welcome to What’s the Tea with Ministry!
Where we spill the tea on the Jesuit and Mercy mission at the University of Detroit Mercy! Bringing you mission-centered conversation through storytelling, reflection, and community connection all over a cup of tea.
What's the Tea with Ministry?
Every person matters: How equal opportunity shapes our university community
Megan Novell brings a passionate optimism to her role as Executive Director of the Office of Equal Opportunity at University of Detroit Mercy. Despite the complex challenges facing DEI work today, she remains steadfastly committed to creating spaces where everyone can thrive regardless of gender, race, disability, or any other aspect of identity.
During our wide-ranging conversation over cups of tea, Megan unpacks the intricate work of ensuring compliance with civil rights laws across our multi-campus university. Beyond simply responding to discrimination complaints, her work focuses on proactively building an environment where no one's education is limited "because of who they are."
What's particularly striking is Megan's natural disposition toward questioning arbitrary rules. From becoming a vegetarian at age seven to challenging her Catholic school uniform policies as a teenager ("Show me in the policy where it says I can't do this"), she's been fighting for fairness her entire life. This personality trait perfectly positioned her for a career ensuring equal access to education – something she considers "the worthiest goal" possible.
Beyond her administrative duties, Megan finds joy teaching in the Women and Gender Studies program, where she witnesses students making powerful connections between academic concepts and their lived experiences.
Want to support equality in your own life? Start by recognizing that human diversity isn't going anywhere, regardless of political climate. As Megan reminds us, "No one can take your principles away from you." In challenging times, remember that the work of creating equal access benefits everyone – and that, historically speaking, "the right prevails."
Welcome to what's the Tea with Ministry, where we spill the tea on the Jesuit and Mercy mission at the University of Detroit. Mercy bringing you mission-centered conversation through storytelling, reflection and community connection. All over a cup of tea Hosted by University Ministry and, typically, our student co-hosts. But we're recording this in the midst of spring break, while Kateri is on one of our service immersion trips to Appalachia, so we hope she's having a great time, but it'll just be me today, Anna Bryson, University Minister for Faith Formation, and I'm joined today by Megan Novell.
Speaker 1:Megan Novell is the Executive Director of the Office of Equal Opportunity and serves as the university's Title IX Coordinator and the ADA 504 Coordinator. Her work focuses on ensuring equal access to all of the university's programs and activities, educating students and employees about their rights and preventing and responding to discrimination. She is also affiliate faculty in the Women and Gender Studies program, teaching courses focused on gender and social identity, as well as an advisor to the Pride Club. In her free time she likes eating, reading and running. So welcome, Megan. We're so excited to have you on the podcast today. You have been on my short list of people that I've wanted to have on the podcast since we really started last year, so I'm super excited that you can join us today. You have been on my short list of people that I've wanted to have on the podcast since we really started last year, so I'm super excited that you can join us today. I'm so happy to have you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're so excited and, in our typical fashion on our what's the Tea with Ministry podcast I started. Before we started recording, I offered Megan a cup of tea. This is our as regular listeners know, this is our tradition that on this podcast we share a cup of tea, the same way the Sisters of Mercy did and still do to this day, as a part of Catherine McCauley's last request on her deathbed, that we share a comfortable cup of tea in community with one another. So I'm going to start, megan, our little podcast recording, by asking you what tea did you choose to drink today?
Speaker 2:Oh, this was perfect. So I chose the Trader Joe's brand Blood Orange herbal tea, which was what I was drinking in my office before I came over here, so you really had my number.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was fate and, in typical fashion, I'm drinking peppermint tea, because I don't expand my tea experiences very often, but I'm enjoying this cup of tea. I'm excited for our conversation today and just excited to have the time and space with you. So I thank you for being here. Primarily, we invited you here to talk a bit about your role at the university, especially in light of everything that's going on in the world, which is chaotic and frustrating, I'm sure, for many people, but also to celebrate Women's History Month. It's currently March. This episode will come out during March, so, as you're listening, hopefully it is still March. If it's not, we hope you enjoy this episode anyway. But, yeah, women's History Month and just a celebration of gender, of expression and identity and recognizing the role of women in our institution and, at large, in our world. So I thought we'd start today by just giving our listeners an opportunity to hear a little bit more about what your role entails as Director of Equal Opportunity and what are some of the challenges you face in your work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much. I mean so what I do in my role I mean, put in the driest possible terms is ensure compliance with all of the laws and regulations that govern education. And you know that doesn't sound all that exciting but actually it is. I mean, there's so much that I do. There is the work in preventing and responding to sex discrimination. Like, basically, if you've got civil rights complaints, in education they occur.
Speaker 2:You know, the most common are sex discrimination complaints, followed by disability discrimination, followed by race, and then I'm not sure that they break them down beyond that statistically and that's pretty much what my work looks like too is responding to sex discrimination in all of its many forms, ensuring that students with disabilities have equal access to all of our programs and activities and, just in general, making sure that no one, because of who they are, has their ability to get the education that they came for limited.
Speaker 2:And you know, when we talk about challenges, I mean I could talk about them at considerable length, and you know I would say that. You know we have this perception that this is a small school, that this is a small institution and it is a remarkably complex institution for our size, and that gives me a lot to do. You know, we've got a law school, we've got a dental school, we've got a school of optometry. All of these campuses, satellite programs, big athletics program there's just a lot to keep an eye on, and so I'm not sure if that's even a good summary at all.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's a great summary and I think it gives people a picture of the work that you do and also the scope of the work of like. I think sometimes it can happen and I know this is true for me that when you primarily work on one campus, you get a little siloed into your campus, even if your work is with all of the campuses, which often and I shouldn't say often, but is a part of at least my role in university ministry is to respond to the needs of campuses all over Not as much work with our satellite campuses, but definitely with some of our other campuses here in Michigan. But yeah, I recognize that even just you naming it helps me to be reminded that, oh right, this is for everybody, this is not just for the McNichols campus, even though that's my immediate context.
Speaker 2:Often yeah, it's been so interesting for me. I mean, one of the things that I really love about this work is that I get to just go super deep in every program and every activity and everything that we do as a university, and there's so much that we do like there's so much to be proud of, and I've just learned so much about. You know all the ways that we, you know, engage in the community, that we're a part of all the different ways that people learn, and you know what our students get up to and you know it's been really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, and I know that your title has recently shifted, so this is a new title as of this year. Correct, this academic year or last year?
Speaker 2:It was last summer. Last summer you made the change.
Speaker 1:And then you've been in this role, though for a couple years it's not been, I don't actually even remember. I know it was during my time when I was here, and I've only been here for three and a half years. So at some point in the last three and a half years you took on this role, at least in a more permanent sense, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and it is. You know the history. I couldn't tell you all the years. I mean, I started serving as a deputy Title IX coordinator and we still have folks in those roles and it's people in kind of key places who have the subject area knowledge, you know, who are able to take part in education, you know, talking with people about what their rights are, what their responsibilities are. And I started doing that work and really enjoyed it and, you know, found that it was really interesting, it really engaged me and so when the position of the Title IX coordinator was available, I stepped in on an interim basis and then I started to feel really responsible for it and wanted to stay.
Speaker 2:And then over time and this has been not just here, but it's kind of the trend nationally is that we realize that it doesn't really make sense to address's kind of the trend nationally is that, you know, we realize that it doesn't really make sense to address one kind of discrimination based on protected class in one way have a really, you know, robust way of responding to complaints, have a whole office, have a really clearly articulated policy and not have that for all of the other identities and all the other protected classes, and so one of the things that I'm really proud of is the way that we have expanded the scope of this work.
Speaker 2:You know, we have a really comprehensive non-discrimination policy now that applies to all of our students, all of our employees in all of our programs and, you know, responds in equal ways to, you know, every kind of discrimination that you can allege or you know, unfortunately, experience, and I think that that especially it's so necessary, right, Because these issues are so intersectional, you know, you cannot really separate out like, oh, here's the part of you that experienced that because you were a woman and here's the part of you that experienced this because you're black, you know, or because you're a Muslim. Like these things are inextricably intertwined, you know, in all of our, you know, beautiful individual selves, and so that's been a big change, going from being the Title IX coordinator to having kind of a broader oversight of a lot of these different areas and responsibilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how has that transition been for you? It sounds like it's been a positive thing, but in terms of like taking on a lot more in some ways, because now this area and scope is so much wider.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot there and I don't mean to suggest like, oh, discrimination is rampant at the university. It really isn't. And you know, talking with colleagues in the AJCU and nationally, and we're actually much better behaved in a lot of ways and you know and have been doing things right for a long time. But yeah, it's a tremendous amount of stuff to keep up on. The work is just immense. So I no longer sleep and that's made a big difference in the ability to manage the workload. But you know it's good stuff and it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:It sounds super interesting. Can you tell me a little bit about, for you personally and you mentioned this briefly, but maybe in more detail what motivates you every day to continue fighting for equality and how do you stay inspired, especially during challenging moments Like our current reality, where a lot of your work, I imagine, is constantly changing?
Speaker 2:There's been a lot, and not just in the really near term. We've had the last five years probably has seen more kind of developments, more turnovers in civil rights and education than we've seen in. You know the whole history of it and so I've got a real gift for timing. You know I get in at the hardest possible moment, but I mean when I think about what motivates me to do this, and part of it is and I don't know if this is an interesting answer, but this is a dispositional thing I have been this way my whole life.
Speaker 2:You know I became a vegetarian when I was like seven years old because I thought this is wrong. You know we shouldn't be doing this and you know I think fondly now of how. You know, when I was a you know, catholic school student and I was always in trouble for being out of uniform, you know the ways that I would like litigate the handbook, you know, and argue with the vice principal and be like show me in the policy where it says I can't do this, and you know, really find ways to work within the constraints you have, like we have these laws, we have these rules and we've got to apply them, and it's just a really fascinating intellectual exercise that serves like the worthiest goal that I can possibly think of, like why fight for equality? Because we need it.
Speaker 2:You know, because when we look at, especially in access to education, which has expanded so dramatically in, you know, the second half of the last century really, I mean, if I want to nerd out, we can go back, you know, to the Industrial Revolution. You look at the massive expansion of education that we see there and the expansion of literacy and just like what this does for people's lives.
Speaker 2:You know the kind of opportunity that it represents for people, both like personally you know you just understand yourself better and you understand our world better but also the way that it opens up opportunities for social and economic mobility for people Like I can't think of a better thing to fight for, Like I can't think of a better thing to fight for, and so that there is a match between this need and my personality that I just can't help has been a real gift for me.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't think that, like most kinds of work, right Like this isn't for everyone, but it feels like a really good fit for me. And you know, when I think about staying inspired, because there are challenges at every level, right like of the work that we can do, it's quite rewarding and to see it in the individual person is one of the most rewarding things. I think about sitting, like at commencement and you know, watching people walking across the stage and you know, because of my role, I have such knowledge of, like some of the very personal stage and you know, and because of my role, I have such knowledge of, like some of the very personal things you know, and what people have carried with them in their time here and what a huge accomplishment it is, you know, and all the good things that they're going to do out in the world that it feels like okay, yeah, no.
Speaker 2:I'll keep. I'll keep working happily if this is the the what we get out of it. For sure, you know there's um, you know there's no question for me that it's it's worthwhile. So.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. The thought of witnessing personal transformation, um, or just growth and continued perseverance in students, faculty staff, in a different way is a part of what motivates me to continue doing campus ministry work. I love sitting with students and having conversations like witnessing their transformation as they unravel pieces of themselves or, you know, if they identify in a particular religious tradition and they share something. They're like, oh, I've had this really great moment for myself of like feeling more connected or feeling more committed and if that is something that brings them joy, like witnessing that and being a small piece in helping them navigate those feelings or navigate conversations about like I've been thinking about this and I don't know how to approach it, or can you share a resource with me? Even those small things are like really big motivators for me to keep doing the work that I do, cause it's it's just, it's the coolest thing to watch someone grow. Isn't that wild? Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's so rewarding and I think people grow so much in college at this stage of life. I mean it's just it's amazing to get to be any part of it.
Speaker 2:You know I always feel like, oh, I can't take any credit for it. You know, I was just here, you did this, and to think about you know like I feel like I've been given so much in my education. You know, like what my professors gave me, you know what all the people I knew when I was in school you know. To feel like you get to give some of that back to someone is incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also really liked. I chuckled when you talked about wanting to dismantle like your uniform at Catholic Girl School. Very relatable, I definitely. I don't know if I I didn't try to say like where is it in the policy? Because it did exist in the policy most of the time, but I think I often would challenge why does it exist in the policy? Because it did exist in the policy most of the time, but I think I often would challenge why does it exist in the policy?
Speaker 1:Like for a long time when I started high school, I had never worn a uniform, I'd never gone to a school with a uniform. So I was like OK, this is new, and we weren't allowed to show our ankles. We had to have socks that covered our ankles and I was like I want to know why. Like I'm definitely the I'm not necessarily. Let's show me in the policy where it is and why you know. But I need to know why. This is the decision and they eventually changed it while I was still there. I don't think it was from my own personal murmurings, but it was really interesting. They had no good reason. I think once upon a time it was that like ankles were sexy or something.
Speaker 1:It was like just really silly.
Speaker 2:And you're like why is that a problem? It's a historic school, historic dress code policy.
Speaker 1:Historic. You know, can't show your ankles, but we can wear sweatshirts all day. It didn't make any sense. Luckily they've changed it. Now you can wear ankle socks, but now the young people love love. A sock that's higher, so it all goes. It cycles back. Maybe, maybe that was the reason.
Speaker 2:Wheel keeps turning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that made me laugh. I was like, oh, I remember those days Definitely trying to challenge school uniforms.
Speaker 2:I wish they could see me, like you know, if the vice principal could see me now tucking in my shirt voluntarily and unpoliced every day, right, like it would just blow her mind.
Speaker 2:You know, I was just constantly in trouble, but I do think it's relevant, you know, for Women's History Month because, you know, when you look back, I think on you know, I assume we're about the same age, I'm probably older than you, you know but dress codes are so sexist, so transparently and openly sexist in ways that, like, I remember girls kneeling at the front of the classroom to make sure that their skirts were long enough, and today, like, we would be aghast to hear about that, and I think that it shows you know as much as you can feel really discouraged about the state of things. Thinking back to what we all got away with and you know, and all we're subject to, and you know all the girls who were sent home because of what their bodies looked like in their clothes and were denied the opportunity to get an education, like, yeah, we have really moved from that.
Speaker 1:Probably not everybody everywhere, but yeah, I feel like there was also a season I think it was it was in the last like five years where in public schools it was like I kept hearing about these different dress codes and it was always women, um, or girls, because these were like middle schoolers half of the time. So, yeah, no, very pertinent and important during women's history month of thinking about dress codes and just the reality that they are discriminatory in and of themselves often and they're so hard because nowadays fashion is so cool and complex and who cares? And I can't complain because obviously the university ministry office is very student-facing and we are often in a variety of clothing that I'm sure would not meet the business level that we might be asked to be in sometimes.
Speaker 2:Oh, I miss those days. Checkered vans you know my Slater-Kinney t-shirt to work. I had a lot of good years yeah love it.
Speaker 1:So, talking a little bit about one of your other roles as an affiliate faculty in the Women and Gender Studies programs, can you talk to me about your time as a professor in Women and Gender Studies and what has been some of your favorite topic areas or sections to teach? I'm always curious about this.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love talking about this. I mean, teaching in the Women's and Gender Studies program is my hobby. I just enjoy it so much. And one of the things that's really wonderful about our program is that it's interdisciplinary, and so, you know, we draw courses from all kinds of places in the university and get to look at those fields and look at those disciplines and subjects through a lens that prioritizes. You know, sex, gender, sexuality, and I just can't think of anything more interesting to talk about. You know, I could do this all day long, and you know sexuality, and I just can't think of anything more interesting to talk about.
Speaker 2:You know I could. I could do this all day long, and you know. So when I think about, like what my favorites are, like all of them isn't a good answer, I think that I mean I've taught gender, sex and justice, which is the only class that's required of all women's and gender studies minors to fulfill those requirements, and so, first of all, it's the best named course at the entire university Gender, Sex and Justice. That's a great name and you know I love that class.
Speaker 2:I mean, and it's essentially an introduction to the field and seeing people start to relate, you know, start to see their own experiences in these subjects, and especially when you talk about like the know start to see their own experiences in these subjects, and especially when you talk about like the family right, like, I think broadly, a lot of people have an idea that like sexism or discrimination is it's a handful of like bad actors who are like out to get a group and they're doing harm deliberately, and I mean, of course there are some people like that, but like most of the sexism in the world, most of the you know any kind of discrimination or you know unequal treatment is like inadvertent and you know it's a side effect of something else, or it's laziness, or it's not prioritizing or not understanding, and I think that that shift, you know where students can start to look at like well, you know, where do you see inequality, you know, based in gender, in your family?
Speaker 2:Pretty much all of us can point to it. And these are the people and, in your relationships, the people you love the most, are doing this. Okay, so why? Not because they're bad and harmful and they don't care, but because this is so baked into how our society is structured and how we understand ourselves, and seeing those kinds of where people are like yeah, my brother doesn't? He never had to do the dishes. I mean, that's a really trivial example, but people get fired up.
Speaker 1:It's a real one. I've experienced myself Really. Oh not, I mean not always, but I'm probably exaggerating it from my lens as being the only girl in the family versus having two brothers, and did they have to, like, mow the lawn and take out the garbage?
Speaker 1:Sort of I mean yes and yes and no. I mean it was one of those things that, like we all, reality is we all did everything. But the way I perceived it in my probably like 10 to 13 year old brain, maybe even yeah, I was like no. Yeah, I think I actually have talked about it on the podcast once before at Thanksgiving. There was a time where I was asked to do the dishes at Thanksgiving and it was like all of the women in our family were in the kitchen and I just remember being like no, and I made probably a little bit too big of a scene, which sounds like me being dramatic, um, but I, yeah, called a lot of people out. I was like the boys didn't do anything, they're watching football, they have to get in there, um, and you know, I mean, ultimately again, probably could have handled it better and articulated my feelings around it a little less dramatically and a little less yelling, um, but you know, I think the point was made, so it counts. It still counts, for sure.
Speaker 1:um, sorry, I interrupted you in the midst of that, but other aspects of what you enjoy teaching. That was really the question.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, I just absolutely love it and I also I sort of favor that class. It has a very special place in my heart Because I think that I took a version of that class as an undergraduate and like it literally changed my life, right, like I, you know, was co-director of the Women's and Gender Studies program last year like because I took one class and thought, oh, this is really interesting.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, one thing leads to another.
Speaker 2:And the next thing, you know, you're a women's studies professor and and so the way that this information, you know that learning this stuff can demonstrably change your life, is so exciting and powerful to me. But I also really really love teaching diverse voices in literature, which is, you know, literature course, as it sounds like you know, focused on diverse social identity in the way that it shows up in art, and you know, I'm an art school dropout and so I'm, and was, an English major here. And so getting to combine every single thing that I care about into one course and and seeing the ways that, like it is so powerful to see your own experience reflected and to learn about other people's experiences in a way that you can't in any other way, like that's the beauty of literature is that it allows you to, you know, imaginatively enter into the subjectivity of another person who lives in another time, who is another way, and you know, so I really I haven't been able to teach it in a bit. I really miss it.
Speaker 1:No, those are great. I also love learning. I mean, I have not yet taken advantage of the opportunity to take classes here as an employee, which at some point I will, but women and gender studies courses are high on my list because I feel like I did not get to take enough of them in college and I loved the few that I did take. I prioritized probably my mental health over taking on another minor, but there's times where I'm like I should have done it, so many things that I wish I could have done and packed into the four years of my college experience that I did not. But women and gender studies classes were always some of my favorite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, One day I'm going to improve my Spanish. You know, it is like the biggest source of shame in my life that I do not speak. You know, the other major language in the country where I've lived my entire life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, language learning is not my gift. I wish it was.
Speaker 2:We'll make a self-improvement pact. We'll both take a class.
Speaker 1:We'll both take a class and I'll try to not fail it. Great. So one of the questions I also wanted to ask from your perspective is how can we at UDM, as an institution and even individuals, a part of our community, contribute to the advancement of women's rights beyond just this one month of celebration?
Speaker 2:This is such a good question. And you know I'm a little bit. Part of me is hesitant, because the answer that I want to give is not critical. You know, I think that what we can really do as an institution, as a community, is what we're doing. Keep doing what we are doing, because when I look around this place, I see such an immensely diverse group. You know certainly, gender diversity and nationwide right, like there are more women at every level.
Speaker 2:You know they're a much larger portion of undergraduates and you know, have achieved parity or surpassed it in, you know, graduate and professional programs, graduate and professional programs, which is wonderful, great, but I think that we are doing a great job. We're providing the opportunity for anyone who wants an education. I mean, I'm going to put an asterisk there, right, like education in this country is not absolutely accessible for everybody who wants it, and I want to acknowledge that. But come here, do your work, you know, study and get out there and be, you know, and look at our nurses and our engineers and our, you know, liberal arts majors and all the things that they're doing.
Speaker 2:I think we are doing it. We are supporting, certainly, women, supporting young people in allowing them to flourish and grow and do what they're going to do. Young people in allowing them to flourish and grow and do what they're going to do. And it's one of the things that I love about institutions, right, is that they do more than any individual can do, and you know as much as I care about this stuff. It's not like I can set up shop in my backyard and do you know a fraction of what I'm able to do with the force of an institution behind me.
Speaker 2:And so I think that you know, continuing to acknowledge how important this stuff is and you know, getting on inequality where we see it, this is, this is really important, but we've done so much. And so stay in the course is my answer on that one.
Speaker 1:Great. Um, this might be a less fun question, but that and I'm you we alluded to this earlier and also you yourself said that this is not new, necessarily that there have been constant changes in terms of laws and regulations around equal opportunity, but in light of our current political climate, which tends to take on buzzwords and take on compiling everything into our news all at once constantly, in light of that current political climate and DEI being under a lot of scrutiny that phrase itself what might you say to the UDM community about remaining resilient and staying true to our values as an institution?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this has been. It's been a really heavy time for folks and a really scary and discouraging. And so you know, when I talk about the kind of changes that that we've seen in civil rights and education, like in the past five years, it hasn't been at the same pace and it hasn't been as public, and I do think that that matters. You know that we, we have so much to worry about already and now you know it feels like, oh, what is going to happen? And I think that you know, like, well, one of the things that is heartening to me is that human diversity is not going anywhere.
Speaker 2:To me is that human diversity is not going anywhere Like we're here and there is no legislating that away, there is no policy that can change who we are in our communities, in our society, and so I get a lot of comfort from that. That. You know, whether it's popular, you know, or not, it does matter. I mean, it has real effects on people's lives. But it is also a fact that there are a rich number of human differences and we all have a lot to give, and nothing changes that. And I think, similarly, no one can take your principles away from you.
Speaker 2:You know, like what you believe in and what you work for and what you stand for. Nobody can come for that. You know those are incredibly precious resources because they belong to us exclusively and there isn't anything that any education policy or government office or anything can do to take those. And so I think that we can, in what I don't mean to diminish, you know are really uncertain and sort of challenging times and situations. We do have those things and we need to have kind of keep the faith.
Speaker 2:I'm so optimistic in so many ways, like when you look at the long history, the right prevails right.
Speaker 2:Like the good does tend to come out, and you know, argue with me, right, I can argue with myself on this one out. And you know, argue with me, right, I can argue with myself on this one. But certainly in expanding access to education, making sure that you know, anyone who thinks an education is going to be valuable for them can seek it, we've, we've done a really remarkable job, like I always cite. So like, if we talk about how effective title nine has been, it's been around for more than 50 years and so that's something else is like oh, what's all this stuff? This has been going on for a long time, and right before Title IX was passed, you know so in 1970, title IX was passed in 1972.
Speaker 2:In 1970, one in three girls in this country did not graduate from high school. That's an immense number of girls to not have that level of education. Now that number is one in 20. And of course there've been, you know, all kinds of changes that have made that happen. And it wasn't just Title IX. You know, it's not attributable to one factor, but that's a tremendous improvement. That's so exciting, you know. And you know, when we look at educational achievement broadly, same kind of trends. And so I don't, you know, I think, when we look at educational achievement broadly, same kind of trends and and so I don't um you know, I think that we can't lose heart um right now, and you know lots more to say, I guess.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, no, it's definitely not a subject, uh that we're just gonna one-off and not hear about uh for a long time, I'm sure, um. But I also agree with you that I it's hard to remain optimistic. So I applaud your optimism. At least from a personal standpoint, I think it's sometimes hard to remain optimistic, but what I do lean on is that spirit of hope, of like the good does prevail, that we cycle through difficult challenges, and we've done that as an institution, we've done that as a nation, a country, and I think globally we do that and so the human experience is complex and challenging and riddled with frustration, but I do believe in that spirit of good prevailing over I won't use the word evil, but over challenges or over what we are identifying as not good. Yeah, I think that's one of like an important thing, and I think so important that I'll give a little surprise to our listeners that, uh, we've picked our celebrate spirit theme for next year already, and it's uh a sustaining, a spirit of hope, um, so a mix of, of recognizing that I think it's the Jubilee year of hope right now, 2025. And also, it is um important that we we talk about sustaining both from a standpoint of like how do we continue to keep doing good work, how do we continue to live into the optimism or live into a hope? And I think also there's a little side in there that we're talking about sustainability at large, that the institution needs to think about sustainability from many different perspectives. So I'll share that with everyone. In light of this conversation, let's lean into the hope and let's hope we can sustain it as we foster and grow as an institution and as an individual or individuals.
Speaker 1:Well said, thank you. I try. And piping hot tea about Celebrate Spirit too. Yeah, the early stuff. Hopefully nothing changes between now and then. And I misspeak, I'm giving you all the early stuff and you can't say hope anymore.
Speaker 1:I can't say it anymore. Another question I have is what do you wish more people understood about the importance of gender equality?
Speaker 2:I gain something, you lose. And that is not certainly how gender equality works, because this isn't just let's make things better for women. You know really rigid gender roles are so harmful to men and of course there are more than just women and men. But when you think about how hard it must be to have to be what we expect of men, you know to be. You know you've got to be tall and rich and smart and sexy and good at sports and you know provide. And nobody can do that. Nobody can live up to that standard. And but you also can't let on that. It's impossible to live up to that standard.
Speaker 2:I mean the inner turmoil, you know the. You know the kind of like violence that is so normalized as a part of that culture. Not that I mean it's a normal part of our culture. Of course women experience it too. But every move we make for gender equality benefits everyone. You know men can be more involved with their children, they can have deeper relationships and you know they can express their feelings and you know they can have genuine connections with people in ways that you know it's not like Emin didn't have real relationships in the past but, I think that having more openness on a cultural level is fantastic for everyone, and also like it isn't that hard is the other thing.
Speaker 2:And it is not expensive, it is not difficult. You know you've got to get out of certain habits, but like more about Title IX, you know when Title IX comes out, there are all these you know programs and colleges and universities that say, you know, we don't admit girls, you know, or we admit two women a year, and all you had to do was take that policy away and women were able to show what they could do. Like, you know, there's not a lot of you know, not a lot of legwork you've got to do for this stuff, and so I think, if it's very easy to do and the benefits are clear for everyone, why not do it? So maybe everyone does understand that. But that's what comes to mind for me is yeah, but I think no.
Speaker 1:I think what you're saying is really important though, because I think, even as I think about myself, um, I am a cisgendered woman, um, and it I do not like being labeled because of that. I do not like being told that like, oh, I like these things because I'm a woman and had to do I. Still I think, yeah, I'm 30, um, unpacking a lot of gender norms that I felt pressured to be, and so then I pushed against them, and it has come now in my, my more adult life that there's actually a lot of that that I really enjoy and I want to be called. I wanted to enjoy it because I enjoy it, not because I'm a woman. And I think that's where I, as a younger person, as a teenager probably a really moody, hormonal teenager dealt with like the constraint of like you should be this way because of your gender identity. And I think the constraining piece is what is detrimental to everybody is like, no, I, why can't I just enjoy these things? Cause I do, and it just so happens to be that I enjoy things that are maybe more feminine or more within what once was a gender role.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I love the thought of wearing like a lot of dresses. I love dresses because they're comfortable. I don't think I love them because I'm a woman, um, I think it's just like they're comfy. Or I like cooking, I like being barefoot in my kitchen. You know, those are all things that some people might say are really termed as women's roles. I don't think of that. I don't personally. I've unpacked for myself in my adult life that I don't like those things because I'm a woman. I just like those things because that's what Anna likes, um, and I just happened to be a woman, um, and that's how I identify.
Speaker 1:But, uh, yeah, I always have felt that, like, the thing that is challenging about gender roles is that people feel stuck and people feel constricted to only think or do things a certain way, um, and that's where the pressure and the annoyance and the anger I think can really develop for people on on many different levels. But I think, if we're able to dismantle that and say, no, I actually do just like doing this thing, that maybe a lot of people who have the same gender identity also like it's not because we have that gender identity, that's just a correlation, yeah, and so I find that to be an important I appreciate that being the thing that you wanted to share, because that's very much how I view it too. It's like we got to. Labels serve a purpose and sometimes it's good to see correlation and understand it as a data person. That can be great, but it's not causation.
Speaker 2:We don't want to limit people. Think about all of the gifts in all of the human person. If we're keeping women out of medicine, for instance. Think of all the talent, all the care, all of that good stuff that isn't getting into all of human society as a benefit because we've got an idea about who ought to be doing what. And it's not like you just I'm glad you mentioned it. It's not like you just choose it, you just shake it off when you turn 18. Like this is so deeply embedded in how we understand ourselves and how our society is structured that you know there's a lot of work to be done, like internally as well as culturally.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:I've got. I've got baggage.
Speaker 1:Let's talk All the things yeah, no, very true, there's, yeah, there's so much Speaking of so much. True, there's, yeah, there's so much, um, speaking of so much. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you feel like you want to mention or share, or, uh, it could be a story. It doesn't have to be like super profound and impactful, it could be whatever. You felt like oh, I didn't share this one thing and I want to now oh goodness, I'm so not spontaneous Right this second.
Speaker 2:I don't. Can you come back to me?
Speaker 1:I'm a slow thinker, that's totally fine, okay, we'll skip ahead. All right, and we always ask everyone who comes on our podcast two questions related to mission and we leave them very intentionally vague because we want them to be interpreted by the individual the way that they see them and understand the words. So I'll tell you both questions, but we'll start with this first one. What is your favorite part of the mission of the University of Detroit, mercy?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so hard to pick favorites. I can easily summon one thing that I really really love about the mission and that is the way that it has given me the language to talk about what I care about. I am so grateful to be able to call on these traditions to say every person matters, every person has worth, every single one, and we need to care about things. And what are the things we need to care about? We need to care about women, we need to care about immigrants. You know we need to advance the cause of anti-racism. You know the way our sponsors name their priorities and the way that that shows up in the mission of the university or talking about, like, catholic social teaching and the right to participate.
Speaker 2:I think about that in my work all the time. Now, everyone has a right to participate in the life of society, and so what are we doing to make that possible? It gives this really accessible, you know, and often really kind of beautiful language to what can be very dry subject matter. You know, in my place and so in my own work, I'm so grateful to have that, you know, have that language and have those traditions to rely on where nobody, you know, I don't envy people kind of in the secular world trying to make these arguments because I think it's harder in the secular world trying to make these arguments because I think it's harder. And you know, we have a fundamental basis of saying people, people matter and we care about them and we're here to care for each other, and so let's talk about how we do that. I love that.
Speaker 1:Great, I love that answer. Um, and then, what motivates you to live that aspect of the mission out?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if this is the whole of the motivation, but it is certainly part of it, and I think you know I said something about this earlier too and I think of um so I did the Ignatian colleagueseagues Program, which is how can I briefly summarize this for people who don't know what it is? It's in a way that I oh so they've realized that there aren't necessarily going to be so many Jesuits around to maintain the unique character of Jesuit colleges and universities and universities, and so there's a program that takes basically, like, senior administrators and faculty and puts them through an accelerated version of Jesuit formation in order to, you know, sort of acculturate you to these values. And it was such an amazing opportunity. And one of the people who was in my cohort said that she sees her career and I'm probably, you know, getting this wrong but her whole career is an act of service and gratitude for what she was given in her own education.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I think that that is a big part of what motivates me is that I feel like I have been given so much by the people who taught me and who cared for me that getting to give that back or getting to do some of that for someone else is so powerful and meaningful to me and that I think that you know you can talk about the specific mission of the university and you can talk about an educational mission broadly, I think you know, know, I mean these questions are well designed and there are lots of ways to think about it, but that to me is probably at the heart of it is like how, how do I possibly repay what has been done for me? And and this gives a, gives a structure, gives a way to do it- Thank you, appreciate your sharing.
Speaker 1:So now we're moving to one of my favorite parts of our podcast, which is our lightning round, and how this works is I will rapid fire ask you questions. I mean not so rapid that you can't hear them, but I will ask you questions. You answer with the first thing that comes to mind. You don't have to provide explanations for why that's your answer, so don't feel like you have to sit there to contemplate too hard about it. Are we feeling ready for the questions? Yeah, okay, so I'll start with sweet or savory. Savory, no question. What job did you want to have when you were a child? Film director? Oh, I love it. Uh, what is one food you could not live without?
Speaker 2:oh how, how broad or precise do I have to be here, however broad?
Speaker 1:or precise, you want to be. Oh my goodness, curry, curry, love it. Um, where do you get your news these days? What are your sources?
Speaker 2:oh wow, I've been trying to mix it up. I'm still the New York Times, although I'm mostly reading the recipes Associated Press, bbc, world Service and I, sort of Chronicle of Higher Education, and then I just rely on other people to tell me.
Speaker 1:Yeah the network is very important Current favorite book, either that you've most recently read or it could be one of your favorite books of all time.
Speaker 2:Oh, my favorite book is always the book I am reading at the moment, which right now I can't remember the name of the author, but it's called Age of Deer and it is about the long history of human deer coexistence. And I live, there are so many deer in my neighborhood, so I see them all the time and I think about this a lot and I saw this book and thought that's the book for me Sounds fascinating.
Speaker 1:I might have to pick that up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's a good one. It's in the library app.
Speaker 1:Who is your hero?
Speaker 2:Who is a hero of yours? Who? Who is your hero? Who is a hero of yours? Who is a hero? I'm going to give the same answer that I've given to this in the past, because the answer stands I'm my mom. I'm Claire Crabtree, who is a professor in the Department of English here for a long time, and I'm just going to go ahead and embarrass her. Pam Zarkowski. She's taught me so much. I love her.
Speaker 1:Incredible Favorite place you've traveled to.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, man, I don't know Ah let's give me a minute.
Speaker 1:Name one of the places you've traveled to that you enjoyed. It doesn't have to be your favorite. I know favorites are really hard. I have a really hard time with the favorites question, so it's cruel that I ask others.
Speaker 2:I do feel like I should have been English like that is, like my spiritual you know, I if there's ever. You know, if they need a Title IX coordinator, I'm there, okay.
Speaker 1:Somewhere in the UK, yes, or specifically in England. The whole place, the whole place. If you could learn a new skill or talent, what would you want it to be?
Speaker 2:Oh, being able to sew clothes would be really cool.
Speaker 1:I think me too, really the number of times where I'm like, why can't I fix this myself? Or like tailor something it'd be. So yeah, that is a talent I want you know angry.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about women right, like that is such a lost art and skill, bring it back yeah, I also sorry this.
Speaker 1:We're derailing the lightning round really fast. I really miss, like home economics classes. Now, I'm not saying we necessarily need them in what they once were to be returned, but we need something like that in high school, like just or more vocations, I don't know anyway, basic life skills yeah, basic life skills. How do you sew buttons? I don't know things that would be life skills. Yeah, basic life skills. How do you sew buttons? I don't know Things that would be helpful. Um, what is one thing that you are hopeful for?
Speaker 2:Spring. I want to be one of these cool people. You know who's like dark and brooding and like loves rainy days, and I'm not. I'm deeply solar powered. I cannot wait. Give me a hot, sunny day. I'm so excited, yeah, for the warmth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm ready for winter to be over. And then our last question is what's the best advice you've ever received?
Speaker 2:This is so frivolous but I love it and I do think that it's not profound but it's been really really good advice. Someone told me in the context of education no one ever got mad at anyone for coming in under time and that has stuck with me so much that you know people take, you know they go over and it's just so inconsiderate to everybody else and then everybody's mad at you and hates you. And you know, whenever someone over and it's just so inconsiderate to everybody else and then everybody's mad at you and hates you. And you know, whenever someone refuses to like seed the floor in an academic context, I think everyone is about to like pitchfork you, what are you doing? And so that is not like words to live by or anything, but in the work context it is one of the most valuable things anyone has ever said in my presence. Nobody ever got mad at anybody.
Speaker 1:Time things anyone has ever said in my presence. Nobody ever got mad at anybody. Time is precious and we don't want to be taking too much of it. Well, great, that really ends our the majority of our time together. I so enjoyed this conversation Me too. Super fun. I'm hopeful that our listeners learn something new about you, whether it's a fun fact or something new about your work and what your role is. I hope people feel you know, inspired to live into the optimism that you spoke of yourself and to recognize that there is so much beauty and joy that comes from the work of finding equality for people and recognizing the gift it is, as a higher ed institution, to be able to provide a space for people to receive education and to receive it in a space that feels fair, equitable, safe. So many different things that I could add to that long list, but thanks for being a part of making that possible for our students and faculty and staff, it really matters.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for saying that and for having staff. It really matters. Thank you so much for saying that and for having me. This was so fun yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm so. I had so much fun. This has been so great and a joy for me. It's a gift that this is part of my job, that I get to talk with amazing people on our campus and have them share a bit about themselves and about their work.
Speaker 2:You're a very good host too.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. So that really wraps up our time. Is there anything else lingering in your mind that you want to share with the masses? I'll say don't lose heart, not now.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that we've got a lot of work ahead of us, but I'm just so happy to be doing it here with such good people and such wonderful students. And I think that there got a lot of work ahead of us, but I'm just so happy to be doing it here with such good people and such wonderful students, and I think that there is a lot to be hopeful about and we need us right now.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. You've been listening to what's the Tea with Ministry. If you enjoyed listening to us today, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Also, be sure to follow us on social media at UDM underscore ministry or check us out at the what's the Tea with Ministry podcast on the Detroit Mercy website. Thank you to our guest, Megan Novell, for being in conversation with me today. Thank you also to all those who make this podcast possible, especially the Communication Studies Department, our sound engineer, Michael Jason, our music composer, Dan Gregg, Marketing and Communications and the whole Detroit Mercy community. We look forward to sharing more of the mission with you next time. See you later.