Angie Shockley mindfulangie@gmail.com
Dave Gold dave@davegold.com
Angie Shockley mindfulangie@gmail.com
Dave Gold dave@davegold.com
Hi everybody, welcome to the Embrace your Journey podcast, and Dave's already giggling.
Speaker 1:We've been giggling a little bit before we came on, and we're talking about a big leap of faith, and so, as is usual when it's just Dave and me on this podcast, I have no clue what we're about to step into, but I trust the process, which is a lot of what Embrace the Journey is about is trusting the process and surrendering to. What is One of the things that we focus on on this podcast is big life transitions, what that looks like for all of us, and how can we make our way through those big life transitions without losing ourselves, without losing our place in the world, supporting and loving each other and also understanding that life transitions are hard, regardless of what they are, and so I know that Dave has had one big life transition this week. I am aware of that one, and it was a tough one, but I have a feeling that there's way more than that, and so I'm going to give Dave the floor here so we can see what we're going to step into this week.
Speaker 2:Okay, I am giggling because it's hilarious in the sense that life imitates art, and be careful what you pray for, and if you say that you want to talk from it, not about it, it's better buckle up your seat belt because life is going to make sure you can talk authentically, alright, so here's the brief version is that last night I was working on my website and going through some testimonials and, angie, I found the beautiful I'll call it a testimony but the video you made about me working with fathers and vulnerability with fathers, and how did I walk through the fire and so I can come from a place of vulnerability and talk about it and I thought, well, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:You know, what does vulnerability mean in terms of navigating life's transitions and viewing these transitions as the evolutionary leaps and gifts that they are, and not solely as disruptors who are, you know, wise God punishing me, kind of things, okay, and the role of vulnerability in that, and that, in turn, informed of how vulnerable I want to be on this podcast, which is vulnerable enough that it doesn't turn into a days of our lives soap opera.
Speaker 1:The days of our lives.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's like sans in the hourglass. We're dating ourselves, but anyway, I don't know. I'd still be on for a while, we know.
Speaker 1:I have no clue.
Speaker 2:Thank God we have no clue, right, yeah, right, but anyway. But anyway, just be vulnerable. And about the life's transition. So I want to just share my own, not in the past tense, but actually in the present tense, talking for a real time of being in the midst of transitions, that one cannot steer the ship, or at least one cannot set a North Star and then just navigate to that North Star and while at the same time making the most informed decisions that benefit not just the outcome but all the people who are tied to you. So I think that's kind of maybe that'll be. One of the themes that comes through is how do we surrender, let go relinquish the illusions of control where they are illusory, and at the same time make the best, most informed decisions that you can? So I'll throw that back to you and then you could ask me a question or you know, you can go off on that and we'll go from there.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you know, when I think about life transitions big ones that I've been through myself and that that I'm witnessing people go through as I'm working with them it's that not being in control. You know, we've talked so many times about the illusion of control in this podcast and that we will try really hard to find control or keep control or or feel like we're in control when something is out of our control, and it's because we are looking for that feeling of safety. We want to feel in control so that we can predict the outcome. We want to feel like we can predict the outcome so that we can keep ourselves emotionally safe or physically safe. And that's a really tough thing to just surrender and say I know I can't control this, and you were talking about situations where you can't steer the ship, where there's an outside force coming in that is going to cause this transition to happen and there's really nothing you can do about it. And that can be anything from the loss of a loved one and oh, I know the loss that you've experienced this week and it right down to you know the loss of a job, where that's not, it's a sudden loss of a position to sudden loss of loss of income. It's a sudden loss of all the people in your lives in, and we have no control or say in that situation, you know where it's, it's, you know, a company cutting back or whatever.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people have experienced that since 2020 and COVID and all those things that came up during that time and folks lost their jobs, their jobs changed in big ways and it was out of their control. And so being able to really surrender that, surrender yourself to I know that if I can keep myself in the right place, the universe is going to take care of me that is a huge leap of faith, right? And so how do we do that? How do we allow ourselves to trust that the universe, god, spirit, is going to have our back and that everything that's happening will be for our highest good and we can relinquish the need to control because we know, one, it's not real and, two, that we're going to be just fine. So how do we do that?
Speaker 2:So those are two great points, and I want to just highlight those two points, because that those are the themes that one thing, the control is illusory. So why do you want to waste your time with it? And not only waste your time but confuse yourself? I think take away from the and I'm going to launch it it takes away from the immediacy and the truth of your actual experience, because you're trying to figure out what it means drawing conclusions and all that. So one, your, maybe that's the one. There's another word besides castrating your experience, but you're neutering your experience. Okay, so it was a little harsh.
Speaker 2:And the other, the second piece, is to rest in the know, in the know of the capital K, knowing that it's going to work out. So so I'll start off. You can see my little Tucker there in the background for those of you who are, who are on YouTube. But there was a second part of of this duo, of my K9 duo, which was my beloved golden retriever, honey, and and as I talk about this, I don't I I don't want to make it so my only person's ever loved and lost an animal. I know that's true. And at the same time, it doesn't minimize the incredible you know incredible loss that it is. And and Angie has a pretty good experience from her own. You know, when I talk to her I'm nursing a dog and she's nursing a chicken, I mean.
Speaker 2:So it's like there's Angie, she's trucking me again.
Speaker 2:I think I got this unique experience with my dog at my feet in the house and she's got a damn chicken in there. She's a chicken, but anyway, I digress. But we we had. We'd found out last Wednesday when my wife's ex-husband, who was a vet, happened to be by the house and looked at honey and said, well, she's got cancer, she doesn't have all the live, and that was a. That started a five or six day odyssey of coming, not just coming to grips with that.
Speaker 2:But how does one respond to that when one is going to put down the, this beautiful animal that you use in the door and that's been so much part of your life and all the other things that goes with it? And what I found in the control piece was that you're trying to take every piece of data. I mean, we did everything we could. We called the vets where you know, we're checking medications, we're trying to, we're trying to correlate honey's condition with conditions we've had before. So we're really like scientists in there trying to crack this code. So we're not just like, oh, what do we do? At the same time, nothing works because you don't know.
Speaker 2:Your dog makes a little bit of a recovery. Well, oh my God, is she bet? Tell me what the total method for the vets do. Is it better now to put her down, where she still has some, you know, still has more action? Oh, is it the medication, is it not? Am I being selfish? Is it that I don't want to let go of her and it's time to let go? Am I being selfish because I want this to end? You know, it's like no matter where you go, what buttons you lever as you turn, they're not connected to anything. You are literally, and it's because you're so invested from the love that you can see this.
Speaker 2:You know, if this was just an experiment, like you know, do I buy the Mercedes or do I buy the BMW? Who cares? You know you can go through it, but when it's this, this beautiful creature who you can't bear to lose, who's at your feet, who's fate is somewhat in your hands and there's no, you can't make it better. You have to make this decision. And and when it? Finally and there was an elegance to how we finally realized it was the time which is on Monday, and we had angels in every form on Monday. That's all I could say.
Speaker 2:You know, I called the vet. They had no appointments, bring her in, talk to the perfect vet, who was just so loving and left it all up to us, but just, she gave me the assurance and the knowledge that this was the moment, that it really, and I knew that and I didn't have that clarity before. And then we called the mobile vet, who we had spoken before, who were great, and they had an opening that evening. And and I got to tell you one of the weird, weird things and I don't know how it ties in is is you're waiting for the vet and you want the vet to get there and you don't want the vet to get there more than anything in the world.
Speaker 2:And again it's goes back to like there's no. What's the right way to feel? The right way to feel is the way you feel, which is completely conflicted. You're so freaking conflicted, Right? So part of this too, and I'll just go off the side, is it? You're free to feel what you feel, and so often I think how should I be feeling?
Speaker 2:How would a good pet owner feel? How would a compassionate man? How does a man feel who's not? You know he's got to keep it together. You know you have all these should, should, should, should, shoulds and then situations like this, which are just such intense interludes of life, are just enabling you to see that all you can do is feel what you feel, respond to how you're going to respond and then have your heart break. And the woman who, the vet who came, was just an angel and it's also you know I'll speed this up a bit, but my beloved wife, julie, who, like Angie is, has multi-dimensional insights and powers and sensitivities, prepared. Our living room is the perfect place for this for us to be with her at the end of life and spent hours on it, and then I brought honey out back here, where I'm recording this, because she, when she was just, you know bleeding all over the place, but she was more comfortable and we ended up.
Speaker 2:You know we ended up doing the euthanasia under a table on the ground, you know, in probably the most uncomfortable place, but it was the perfect place, and you just let go of all these ideas of what? Oh, this is going to be no, and yeah. So anyway, that was, that was part of the week. And then I want to add the second piece, which Angie isn't aware of, which has put me in this even more heightened state, and I think what I'm going to do, I'm going to talk and then I'm going to actually stop the video because I'm going to. Can you hear me? Yes, okay, so I'm moving off the microphone too.
Speaker 2:I got to do a show and tell here, okay, and even Angie hasn't seen this. So this is great, it's high theater and embracing the journey podcast. So I will start by saying that I was driving home from the gym two days later and the sun was very, very bright and in my eyes and all of a sudden, I am shocked by a crash to my windshield and hitting something pretty intense, and can you see that?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, okay. So what happened is that that indentation was a truck carrying telephone poles over across the road. That hit exactly where my head was. Wow, okay, and I just didn't see them because of the sun, I didn't see the flagman because of the sun and only later, you know, when we talked, that we figure out what had actually happened there. So, and I will just add this piece and then I'll go back, we'll, then we're done with show and tell is the one of the guys, one of the workers said what happened was the back of the truck. The back of the trailer was just a little bit in a dip which raised the logs up to, and those two inches were enough that when I hit the logs they rolled over to the on top of my roof instead of through the windshield, and they hold hold on hold on the second day because we didn't get.
Speaker 1:We'll have Keith edit this out. So now that you're sit down, yeah. Because you broke up. So explain again how the accident actually happened.
Speaker 2:Sure I will, and then let me get my ears on spec I had recapping again with that.
Speaker 2:I was driving home from the gym, sun was incredibly bright. I came was just half a mile from my house. Suddenly there's the, the, something hitting the windshield. You know I'm going to hit something very, very solid windshield shatters, car stops. And then I discovered that and I hadn't seen either the flagman who had the stop sign or the this logs that had been, they were backing in to a place and so I saw the truck on the left but I didn't see the logs. They were on the, not the logs, the telephone poles that were on the trailer on my side of the road that I ran into. And as I talked to the guys, the workers, the guys are putting the telephone poles and they said that the, the, the trailer, was just a little bit off the berm and it raised the logs a couple of inches so that when I hit it, instead of them coming through the windshield, they just had a little bit enough of a lift to go over the top.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, so that's inches inches, no.
Speaker 2:And the interesting thing was, when I woke up that morning, as I was feeling it to everything, I literally heard the word saying you live a charmed life, and I took that as an admonition like hey, yeah, you lost your puppy, you know and there's a lot of other things I'm.
Speaker 2:Luckily it's just a crisis moment in every area of my life, although third dimensional, just not area. You know, my marriage is great, my kids, you know, but in terms of all the businesses and all the things that I'm, the situation it's all time sensitive and all very intense. And and I didn't, of course, the charm life was that I am here having this with you instead of you comforting my wife as to why her insane, unconscious husband decided that he wanted to decapitate himself with telephone poles.
Speaker 2:I'd much be having this conversation. So, and that is just has me again in that you know kind of the situation where what I'm not trying to make sense of it, you know, I can make sense of what it means, but again, at the lack of control, but also this, this is like I have to really really evaluate about my, how much I want to be driving. If I want to be driving, you know, it's like literally, you know what. What does this mean now in terms of my life? I had to go. I went to a, to you know, chiropractor. From my back, from the accident, take an Uber? I don't, you know, I've never taken an Uber in town. Yeah, so there's a transition here in terms of, you know, perhaps my independence. This is, this is all in front of me right now as well, and so I am the poster child, at least a poster child for embracing life's journey and navigating your way through uncertain life transitions, in terms of my dog and also in terms of the uncertainty of the future.
Speaker 2:So anyway, that's all I got to say about that.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, it's been quite a week and you know, the first thing that really it's been quite a week, the first thing that really drops in for me, as you're talking about all of that is something that I used to experience a lot, and I've it's rare now, but it's still is something that I experienced occasionally, and that is when there is a significant event in my life, typically a significant event that's difficult, something that's going to take my attention, something that creates anxiety, a heightened level of awareness, those kinds of things that I'm not grounded, that I don't.
Speaker 1:I tend to not be grounded. I tend to be more, you know, I guess floating is one way to say it but more living in the emotion of what's happening around me rather than being grounded, and I make mistakes when they, when I'm in that space, you know, that's when I drop things, lose things, break things, have accidents, not paying attention to what's going on in the literal world around me, because I'm in this heightened emotional state and I'm just wondering if you feel like and I know the sun was in your eyes so there was a very, you know, literal process happening there, but do you have any sense of being kind of in a heightened emotional state with the loss of the dog, that life transition that had to happen Then, that creating a an environment in which you were not grounded, which made you not be paying as close attention as you typically do.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean, I think I'll just say yes, there is a, it's. It's interesting. There's a, there's a disembodiment, there's an. I think there's a default towards disembodiment when, when it's so painful to be one one, whether you're distract, or whether it's just so painful to be present, that you your flights of fancy or out of your body or out of that, and I think that's just such an incredibly human experience that I absolutely and then you know the joke that we have around the houses do not operate heavy machinery when this is going on. Right, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's something that I didn't think going to the gym was operating heavy machinery. But I was wrong and it's and I think make a point back to you is that it's so helpful to know yourself well enough to be able to just say OK, this is not the moment for this decision or for this action or for this, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you take that, we take this, the situation, mean that you were moments from death. That's the reality of the situation. You were moments from death. It didn't happen, it wasn't supposed to happen. The journey is perfect, but there was something to come out of this for you, and I think you're gaining it now that awareness on many levels, the charmed life, all of that.
Speaker 1:But if we take that to an even higher perspective, just bigger picture perspective, really of like, when, when you are in a life transition of some sort whether it's a loss or you know, the big life transitions we talk about, we talk about them it is a heightened emotional state, for sure. And so how do you then get yourself into a position where you can operate heavy equipment, where you can drive yourself? You know, and some of the things that I've found to be effective are to number one, something you've talked about, dave. Number one allow yourself to feel what you feel. So, whatever emotion you're in during a life transition, time is the right emotion. There's no, there's no, you're right or you're wrong, or you should feel this, or you shouldn't feel this. Whatever you feel, you feel. And so really allowing yourself the space and time to be in. That, I think, is important. But then also understanding that there are things you can do to ground yourself, so that you can operate heavy equipment, so that you can go to the grocery store, the gym, take your kids to school, whatever it is, go to work, be in that space, you know, and one of the things that works for me is going outside and really connecting to nature and getting my feet on the ground and physically feeling myself grounded and in the space that I'm in. That's one thing that works for me. Knowing how to release the emotion that you're caught in is another thing that works for me, and you can do that through breathing, through breath work, because the exhalation is allowing your body to release whatever is is hold you're holding on to. And so when we are in a heightened emotional state and we know we still have to step out into the world and live our lives and take care of our daily responsibilities, taking a little bit of time to do some breath work and releasing that emotional block, you know wherever it is in your system, and if you are someone who does breath work and does yoga and understands that breathing process, you probably can't identify in your body and your chakra system where it's caught. If you're someone who's new to breath work, you don't have to know that you can trust the process of breathing breathing in through your nose, breathing out through your mouth and allowing your body to physically release whatever it is that has got you stuck.
Speaker 1:You know, and one of the examples that has been in my awareness over the last few days has been that of having an emotional time with a relationship, working with somebody who is struggling through that. You know, the relationship is struggling and this person has a very important job, working with other people's lives, and so being able to compartmentalize that to a degree has been really important for him, because he can't be in that heightened emotional state and then step into his role as physician with other people's lives in his hands and be in that state that you're in, where you maybe didn't have the awareness around you and hit the telephone poles, and so you take someone who is a physician, who is also a human and has a human relationship, and that relationship is in a struggle and they still have to go to work every day, and so working with him to be able to breathe some things out, to know that. You know, when we are in a heightened emotional state, we want to do something. We want to fix it, end it, close it, whatever. That's our tiger brain trying to take care of us, trying to keep us alive and keep us emotionally safe.
Speaker 1:We want to resolve the problem, and the reality is that oftentimes those highly emotional states are not going to be resolved quickly, and so we have to learn how to ground ourselves, release that emotion and step into our daily lives in an effective and safe way that allows us to do the things that we need to do in a safe way, in an effective way, rather than living in that heightened emotional state and you know that's a tough thing to do. But we have to learn how to do that, and I think that is something that for people who are tuning in right now, everybody struggles with this, every human struggles with this, and so those are really important awarenesses to know how to get yourself into the grounded state of walking through your daily life, even when you have a very heightened emotional situation going on in the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:Wow, there's a lot of wisdom there and a lot to respond to from this space. And the first is life. Life is absolutely going on. Life is just continuing to go on. I still have to make decisions, I still everything you know. So life is going to go on, and so I think that's one of the tenets that I'm seeing revealing themselves or re confirming themselves in a different perspective. And the first is what does it take for you to feel safe? You know, safety is just so much a part of this, because, as long as I'm in that that you know that state.
Speaker 2:I'm not safe, I'm not safe, I'm not on my safe, I'm not safe for others. So and this kind of ties into something that was went through my mind is to give yourself a sense of trite, so to give yourself permission, to give yourself permission, and I don't because there's so many shoulds involved. We talked about the way I was feeling should when, with honey, you know, do this. So many should I, should I, is it okay for me to my feeling too little, my feeling too much to time for me to get back to work? I'm feeling selfish and am I being the fact that I can go to work and the next day after I put you know, after my, I will lose my beloved animal? Is that just showing that I'm just a heartless, you know man who just doesn't get you know, whatever it is you just give, you give yourself permission to feel and then just to respond. It's so interesting because I have had meetings all morning and I'm not in the safe. I'm like, oh, you know what, I'm actually interested in this, I can do this. Oh, that's cool, I can help. And then, you know, ryan, we had something we need to do for a conference.
Speaker 2:For that conference, we're both going to be out next week. It was really simple. It was just writing a liability lease and I said, ryan, right now, if you gave me a choice between writing that release and hand copying the encyclopedia Britannica, I would rather hand copy the cycle. It's so not. And so for me to give myself permission to one if I can engage, engage If I can't know and there's, there's a certain faith, you know, if it was, I have to write the right to check, to keep the lights on. Yeah, okay, but you know that there's so little of life that really is as critical as we think it is. And the third point that I would make and I found this because I know from from my own experiences of life, you know in life and as a mentor and all the other things, that all you can do in a situation with your heartbreak, that's my marching orders but my heartbreak, and you know I did that for days and it's still happening.
Speaker 2:You know I'll be walking along and I was walking the dog the other my, you know, tucker this morning and I want you know something happened. I'm a puddle of piss again, you know okay.
Speaker 2:That's just going to happen, and so your heart just continues to break. And I found that that heartbreaking has made me accessible, even more so to people you know. So you don't say, oh, I'm in, no, I'm not fit, I'm not fit company. I'm not fit company for some people, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:I was on the phone last night. I was doing some stuff with insurance, work for the and I got the point with someone. I just I couldn't, I just couldn't do it, I just couldn't talk to that person. Okay, that's understandable, but I've had some medical stuff. That's happened too, that I had to keep postponing appointments because of the dog and I. Finally, the morning after youth and I's, I went to the doctor's appointment and I was.
Speaker 2:So every person I talked to I loved up, I gave them a gift, I made them laugh, I saw who they were, you know, I just gave. I thought, wow, and not because I'm trying to, because you know what. Oh, this has actually opened my heart up and now that I could toggle into that. And so the point is is that you don't, you don't know, you don't the fewer conclusions you draw. That's my mantra Don't draw conclusions about anything, because that is just going to cloud everything and I feel fewer the more curiosity, which we've talked about before, about what as?
Speaker 2:Not only what am I capable of, but what do I want to do? I want to. I wanted to talk to people, I wanted to joke with people, I wanted to tell them oh, I see this about you. So all of this is again it, it, these, these life transitions invite and demand and demand's a strong word, but I'm going to use it here that you stepped into your own autonomy, that you really step into yourself in a way that we normally, life doesn't normally require us to do so.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, as you were talking about all of that, another term that came to mind was overthinking. We can so overthink these situations. You know, what should, how should we act, what should we be doing, what's the right thing, what's the wrong thing, and what are people going to think, and all of that, and that can just absolutely put us into to even more of a heightened emotional state, to where we then get the blinders on. You know, I talk about the blinders when you can't see. All you can see is right in front of you, and taking those blinders all allows us to have that connection. Overthinking is this this is letting go of control, or the need to control, or trying to find control or trying to resolve the thing, and it is a process. You know.
Speaker 1:We can talk about grief in the traditional sense of all the steps of grief, and grieving happens. You're grieving right now. You're grieving the loss of your beloved dog. You know, but grief happens on many different levels. We can grieve the loss of a job, we can grieve the loss of a partner, we can grieve a death. We can grieve our own losses, because the truth is in order for us to step into our true autonomy, to be self-referencing, to really go on that journey that you just mentioned.
Speaker 1:We are going to lose things. We have to release things. There's no way we can take all of our baggage that we have carried into a new way of walking with us. There is only growth when we make space for it. And so releasing some of those things, those belief systems, those old ideas, those self-judgments, all the things that fall into overthinking what will others think of me? What do I think of me? How am I going to approach this? All of that overthinking, that's baggage that just carries a lot of anxiety with us and in order for us to grow, those things have to fall away.
Speaker 1:And some of the stuff when we go through a growth process, we're like, yes, we want that going, we know we want that going, that limiting belief doesn't ever need to come up and stop me again, and we're so happy about it. But then sometimes things fall away and we're like, wait, I don't know if I'm ready to let go of that one yet, and so we'll hold on to that one because we're just not quite ready or we don't know, or we didn't expect that one to go away. And that's where we have to really trust the process. That's where we have to really embrace the journey, and it doesn't mean that we have to let go immediately. It means that we're going to understand it as we go along.
Speaker 1:So, whatever that thing is that you're holding on to, that you may need to let go of trusting the process and knowing that the answer will show itself. If you can trust that, then that's going to be a much smoother growth process than going. Oh my god, I can't let go of that, because that identifies who I am, and often that's the underlying. It identifies who you are and that's why you don't want to let go of it.
Speaker 2:And the first thing that comes to mind that I would want people to benefit from. This isn't a test, and so often we think this is a test and I've got to pass the test and you don't. There's no, you're not being tested, you're not being. Will the growth come? Yes, will there be decision points? Yes, but the idea that you've got to crack the code and get this thing right is just you again trying to keep control of it. So relinquishing the fact that there is a right way to get through this and you've got to figure that out is so liberating the trust will telling people you have to trust. As I said, it's like going to a party and seeing someone is socially anxious and saying, hey, you got to relax. I mean, it doesn't really help very much to say, yeah, yeah, you got to trust.
Speaker 2:Damn, it is allowing life to reveal its trustworthiness in the smallest of things that when I was driving to the doctor the morning after honey, my map just took me. I was late. I don't like being late. I know it doesn't matter, but I was late and I don't like being late. And I changed your point several times and my phone decided it was going to take me off the main road and take me through a neighborhood that I knew was totally wrong.
Speaker 2:And I'm sitting there thinking damn it. And then I'm looking at oh my god, there's a beautiful lake over there. I was like life is just taking me on. Hey, stop for a second, you don't need the interstate and you can say, ok, I'm done magical thinking. You can say this is life just showing its beauty and its trustworthiness in this moment, from my map to just go haywire and take me on in its sane detour. And it doesn't have to be that obvious that life is doing this. But life will prove its trustworthiness the more that you stop demanding that it's prove itself in the way that you want it to be proven.
Speaker 1:That's a good one.
Speaker 2:I like that. There's too long for a T-shirt, but I'm going to remember it in a way, maybe a bumper sticker, and the thing that I wanted is way back and I didn't mention it, and I'm sure this is maybe. I would assume. It's more challenging for men than for women being whatever they call me stereotypical or misogynist or whatever sexist is to let people love you, to just let people love you and give to you through your when you're in your grief or you're in your transition or whatever.
Speaker 2:And I found something you know I was. I cried away with a honey that I haven't cried, you know, since my father died, you know, 50 years ago, and it's I'm convulsing. I'm convulsing and you know my wife's there and you know it's like there's a part that doesn't want. You know, it's almost like, oh, I don't want to be a sympathy, I don't want her to, you know, and I've noticed that people are just stepping up in this way, very subtle way. You know, god bless Ryan. He called one of my friends, tom, who we've had on, and said Tom, you should talk to Dave, he's in a mess, you know, and there's just these little acts of love that people want to extend to you. And I know the difference, because I could feel there's a part of saying, wow, you know, I got to get out of jail for recart, my dog died, I don't have to do this and hey, you bet, I've been trying to get you to help me with this. So there's, you know, you know yourself. Well, I have to know when you're playing the system.
Speaker 2:And then there's difference of just let life, people, animals, lakes, just let yourself be loved and supported for no other reason than it's just a better way to live, and you're giving something to them. If you want, if you got to be selfish about it, you're giving something to them to allow them to love you in this way.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think that's important and I don't know that that's harder for men. I will talk about that for a minute Because you know, I know a lot of matriarch the strength in the family. The woman is the strength in the family, and being vulnerable is hard in a different way for a matriarch, and so I think letting people help, letting people love you, but letting people help, I think, might be the way to say that it's harder for women to let people help.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, because we carry this responsibility and whatever that matriarchal role is, then it's hard to not maintain that and again, that can be an identity. That's who I am. I am the person who takes care of everything, I am the person who's in control. I am the person you know, and realizing that you're not can be tough. So I think from a woman's perspective that's like the same thing and maybe it's just a little different wording. But I do think that you know it's such a hard thing when you have a big life transition and you're looking for support. You know, let's talk about for a second maybe a mom who's a matriarch, who becomes an empty nester, and it's like all of a sudden the identity piece is not there, because no longer are you the mom of these children who is managing everything that's happening with these children, whether it's beautiful play dates or going off to therapeutic boarding school or whatever it is. But you know it's not all of a sudden. It's a very gradual transition, but it can feel like all of a sudden that's not who you are anymore. Right, and that can be a tough, tough place to accept help, to accept love from others, because you're looking for your identity and it's incredibly vulnerable to not have that identity named any longer.
Speaker 1:So that's one of the toughest, I think, life transitions. You know not that any is tougher or worse or better than the others, but I think it's just a really hard one to give yourself permission to go through, because it's not a death, it's not a horrible traumatic experience. A lot of times it's a really beautiful, wonderful thing as your children go off into the world and live their own lives. But then there's that who now? Who am I as the matriarch of this family? I'm not that person anymore, and so who am I now?
Speaker 1:And that I find in the people that I work with to be a really hard place to show vulnerability. You know, because you're also looking at particularly women of a certain age and what that's. You know, many of those women are also kind of coming to the culmination of a career as well, and so now there's not just the identity of the mom, the momager, the mom manager of these children who are now adults, but then there's also I'm not gonna be the person who's the accountant, or the person who's an attorney, or the person who's a physician or a teacher or whatever it is that my career has been. And then, man, I'm hanging out here with no net and no identity around me and that's a tough place to be. That's a really scary place to be for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:And I would add too, that you've got there's the physical changes. So you're talking about the women in there, that they're going through a different part. I don't need to get into the plumbing piece of it. But what? We're talking about here and then who am I gonna be then? And I realize I mean the question is who will I be if I? Who will I be now if I don't drive? Yes, like.
Speaker 2:I don't know who I'm going to. Who will I? I'm the guy that just did the hair go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm free, not only for business, but I can go and surprise my wife with, go to the movie theater and just say, hey, I just want popcorn for my wife, I don't mind, I'm not buying a ticket, that's me.
Speaker 2:So who am I going to be now that I can't do all the things? And I don't and you don't know? And if I'm gonna intellectually make a case for it, it's that, look, all of us feel something's missing in our lives, right? Even when we have all the things that we're afraid to lose, right, I had my dog and I was driving, and you know, but I still feel that okay. So, and then the at least the small K, knowing that when I let go of who I thought I was, I will discover that which who I really am more of who.
Speaker 2:I really am.
Speaker 2:That small consolation when your kids are leaving and then, as your career is ending, you're going through a change of life, all that kind of stuff. Don't hand me that stuff, but it happens. It just happens to be the truth. And what you and I know from our own life experience and from the people that we mentored, helped, loved or just brushed up against, is that who they are on the other side of who they thought they were, who they were so terrified to let go of, is who they've always wanted to be. There's another T-shirt in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is. That's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one, but it's true. And I do want to talk a little bit about the, you know like kind of losing your driving privileges. I have watched that happen and that with some people very close to me and trying to support them through that process, and it is, it is an identity shift and it has to be scary. It has to be scary. You're kind of standing on the cliff right now looking down into the pool of water of aha. Now I'm not this any longer. And so now what does that look like? And you just talked a lot about some very literal things that you do without thinking about it going to the gym, you know, going to doctor's appointments, driving around for business, getting in the car and driving from North Carolina to West Virginia to see me and ski, you know right, but then getting Julie popcorn, things like that. Like when you contemplate that, where does that hit you, like physically, where does that hit you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first thing. Just, it's going to be my choice. You know I'm not going to. I'm legally I can drive. It hits, where does that hit me? Okay, let me just stop and do it. We tell every week. Just start on this. I feel in my heart, first of all. I feel in my heart, I feel it in my gut, I feel my heart hurts and I can't tell you why it makes my heart hurt, but it's like a punch in the gut. It's like a punch in the gut that I it's emasculating. It's really and not just and I use that a male term, but you can take that, you know Right, but I think there is.
Speaker 1:I do think there is a male aspect to it as well. It's definitely gender non-specific, but I think there's a male aspect to it as well.
Speaker 2:And I feel like just today is a perfect day. I've got a long day, I need to, I want to gym so badly I need to gym so badly I'm not going to be able to get to gym. So there's a letting go of saying, okay, wait a minute. You know, julie's been telling me my first wife and then my second wife. The one thing they agree on is I'm pretty compulsive about exercise. If you get to then diagram, there's not a lot of stuff in the middle, but that's one of the ones between my two wives and so, wow, I'm actually being weaned, and that's small consolation when my body's screaming for exercise.
Speaker 2:But there's still the sense of okay, I'm not able to answer your question. I feel, I feel frightened, I feel disillusioned, I feel like I've had something taken away and there is a pinprick of light, of excitement about wow, I wonder what this is going to be. I know this is like shocking, but I made friends with a Uber driver yesterday. I mean, who would think that I could make friends with a stranger? But, all kidding aside, there's gonna be some kind of adjustment here, and if I don't try here's the thing if I don't try to say, oh, there's a silver lining here and I'm gonna see it, and just jam this template that I don't really believe in over the practicalities of it, it goes a hell of a lot easier too.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the choice that you're making, because you're telling me that you're making the choice to no longer drive.
Speaker 2:Have you made?
Speaker 1:that choice, or you're standing there waiting to make that choice. Choosing whether you're gonna make that choice or not may be one way to look at it. And what role is fear playing? Not that there's not a healthy fear here, but what role is fear playing in your decision-making?
Speaker 2:Well, I wanna go back to step and not directly answer the question, but answer something that I saw, very, that I think is really important for everyone, and that is you know, julie's basically, hey, you can't. You know you can do this. You could have really hurt someone and you do this. Yeah, and I'm just saying, because I was kind of talking this way, that this is what I'm contemplating. And I just said Julie, and she kept. I said Julie, I have to get here on my own.
Speaker 2:And this is really subtle because, yes, do I want that input? But I don't all wanna make this choice out of fear, guilt. I wanna be able to come to the process and I don't know what that process is going to go. Do I know? I've read the back of the book? I actually know where I get to, just between us girls, yeah, I know how the book ends and how the movie ends, but I need to get there myself. And I think this is maybe something you were going through. Is you know? We talk about the energy thing going into the thing itself.
Speaker 2:I wanna make this decision out of love, out of good thing, and not just, oh my God, the next time I go out I could run somebody over, Although that's a valid concern. So I think what's happening is I am seeing the, I'm seeing the writing, I feel the grace that I have been given here, both in terms of my own life and others, and I feel you know so there's a lot that goes in. I don't know if I've answered your question.
Speaker 1:You did, you did.
Speaker 2:I am getting to that point and if you put a gun in my head and said what's it gonna be, I would tell you you know, I'm gonna give my license. I'm not. I'm just gonna, you know, retire my license and use it to get on airplanes and not to get behind the wheel of a car. And there's still a little something that's being processed, that I'm just watching it unfold. And since my car is totaled, I don't have to make any decisions anytime soon because I ain't driving anywhere. You can't go anywhere.
Speaker 1:You've got no way. Yeah, no, I you know. Thank you, dave, for going down that trail with me and being so vulnerable You're very good at that but thank you for doing it on this podcast because this is a really huge life transition for you and for a lot of people. And you know, there for a little bit we kind of stepped into almost a session and thank you for doing that. But I really wanted to go there because I want our watchers, our listeners, to hear this in real time.
Speaker 1:This is a real process and, yes, you may know the answer. You may know what the choice is gonna be. Whatever that is, whatever transition is in front of you, you may already know what has to happen or what you're gonna choose to do. You may know the end of the book, but between here and there, there's a lot to go through and really giving yourself that space to do it is important, and I do think it's also important in your situation that your car is totaled and so there's not. You're not gonna be like running to the gym in a dented car for the next six months until you make the choice that you need to make. You know, because there is that literal safety aspect of it.
Speaker 1:For you and for a lot of people, there's a literal safety aspect in a decision at a choice point. Not everybody gets the grace that you've been given to be able to make this decision, to sit with it, to understand how it's gonna impact you, how it impacts your emotions, where you feel it, in your heart, in your gut. It's a punch in the gut, you know, and how do you handle that? So think about how many life transitions are heart wrenching and feel like a punch in the gut Because you have been just absolutely taken completely out of the life that you have known and plopped down into a life that is not what you have known.
Speaker 1:Now for you, the one aspect and you know I'm not the third wife here, but I do know the compulsion for exercise and I know you know I'd say that jokingly, but I also know how much of a part of your health and wellness that is and how much I respect that in your existence. So I would imagine that you will find a path around to be able to continue, because that's a healthy outlet for you, right? So whether you make friends with all the Uber drivers, or whether you set up a home gym or whatever you choose to do, and you're probably already thinking on this one, am I right?
Speaker 2:Well, I gotta tell you a quick story if I won't lose your train of thought. So this is the next morning I'm taking Tucker out for a walk and one of my neighbors is there and he says where's your other dog? And I tell him the story and we start talking and I noticed he goes to the gym. Same gym I go to three times a week. I said how often do you go? Oh, I go three times a week. When do you go this? I said can I go with you? He said sure, he called me that day, Said I'm going to the gym, do you wanna go? Okay, so, and again, these are the little it's nice when they happen.
Speaker 2:But it's okay, go ahead and continue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that really just illustrates my point. A path will open up because and I'll use this situation as an example you have this accident by the grace of God you are still with us and nobody else was injured.
Speaker 1:and you're facing this choice point about your life and one of the things that could have stopped you from coming to this awareness is your gym going to the gym, getting in the car going to the gym, getting in the car going to the gym. Before you even had to find a path around it, the path presented itself.
Speaker 2:I would hypothesize here that- oh pine, yes, we used to say in the law yeah that your frequency around this decision has been pretty high.
Speaker 1:Even though it's heart wrenching and a punch in the gut, your frequency around it has been in the realm of opportunity, possibility, grace grace for yourself, grace for others, gratitude for your physical wellness and gratitude that no one else was injured. All of those emotions keep us in a high frequency. And then the high frequency we attract back to us that which will serve us. And so, on a walk with your dog, you've found your path around not being able to drive and getting yourself into the gym to complete your healthy coping skill right.
Speaker 1:So that, I think, is really important for people to understand, because when we are in a situation that is so damn hard, it's just hard and we have to walk through it and there's no way around it.
Speaker 1:And we can compartmentalize and we can get support, we can do all those things, but the choice point is always gonna be the perspective. Where are we gonna go with our perspective? Are we gonna be in gratitude for the life that we got to share with someone before they were taken from us? Are we gonna be in a space of gratitude and empathy for a person that we've had a disagreement with and it's not always easy to make the choice to do that, but when we do make that choice and we stay in those high frequency emotions, then we attract back to us those things in the world that will help us to continue on a positive transition, on going through this big life transition in as positive a way as we can. And so I think that that's just a really important story that you told. A really important awareness for us all to have is how we look at something. The perspective that we take is so, so important.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's. I should just let that be the last word or what. I don't even know where we are in the time Bye. I want to reiterate to people that it's okay to be overwhelmed, it's okay to not cope. It's okay to not cope, that's all. That's my dog. She doesn't. It's not even that I've lost her. She's not on this. I wrote, I texted Julie this morning. She's up and working on the house and I said I realized that I'm not even. It's not about me, it's that the earth doesn't have my dog anymore. I don't know, you know. So there's no. I can't tell myself anything. Maybe I can't not be overwhelmed, I can't. There's no, there's no solace here. So the thing that anything we're saying is going to just give you you know, it'll give you guidance, it'll give you trust, it'll give you hope, you'll know you're not alone. And then there's just a way to give yourself permission to be overwhelmed and know that this, you know.
Speaker 2:I said there's no limit to the, there's no bottom to my love for honey and this. So there's no bottom to the grief, it's just life. And I'm not saying, oh, poor me, I'm so great. I, it's just it's just frigging life.
Speaker 2:So, to know that everything we're saying, these are all precious. And you know, angie, I'm just talking about the price I'm paying this moment, but Angie's got every scar I got maybe probably a few more. So we've, you know, we have, we've lived this, we've gone through this, and part of why, if there's a why to why we've gone through this, it at least that we can superimpose it so that we can have this conversation as you go through it, and so all the wisdom is here and also give yourself permission to be overwhelmed and just see how what life is opening up for you. And yeah, that's all I got to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. The only thing I would add to that is that, you know, I I think that going through big life transitions, it really truly is a journey and though there's not a timeframe on it there's not a it doesn't expire at a certain time. You know, I lost my yellow lab more than six months ago and there are still moments of the punch in the gut, but I'm so grateful for the time that I had ahead of him for 13 years. I'm so grateful for that, you know, and and yes, there are a lot of scars there, and there are scars that are a lot deeper than losing my dog, but there's not an expiration date on grief.
Speaker 1:There's not a handbook on how to go through a life transition, but we are here to help in those times and not only do we have the experience, but we also have a ton of wisdom and training to be able to help people during those times. And I think that's probably my final message to everybody is that if you're facing one of those life trends, life transitions, and you don't know what else to do, certainly reach out to us. We're here, we'll be happy to help you, connect you to resources, connect you to each other. You know, whatever we can do I know I speak for Dave when I say that to our audience that that we want to be able to provide support for you guys. We do this because we love it, but we also do it because we want to be able to share bits of wisdom and practices and experiences that are going to help other people along the path.
Speaker 2:Well, this is cool because now I get to take a full circle to where I started with something that you said in as I was editing, or whatever your the testimony that you gave for me to work with fathers, particularly as you said. He doesn't act like someone that has all the answers. He is someone who has walked through the fire and wants to walk through the fire, as your friend said it. Maybe you can step on the less hot coals Now. There's a T, there's not. There's a T shirt. That was one of your T shirt moments, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But anyway, it's that. That's really what it is. We're just friends who are walking next to you because we have burned our feet and we want to have this journey be as beautiful and as poignant and as painless as possible. So, angie, thanks a lot, for it's just so cool doing this with you and just having the faith and saying, hey, roll the tape, we're going to have a good one today.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, well, we went. We went kind of deep. So hopefully, hopefully, this has been a beneficial moment for everybody listening. And, dave, I will see you at the end of next week at the Attach Conference in Virginia Beach.
Speaker 2:I am so looking forward to seeing you in person again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be great. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll be back in a couple of weeks.