Jonathan Epstein, Planet Fitness Mega-Franchisee

“Sometimes, franchising is MORE entrepreneurial, because in the larger franchises all of the great ideas that the customers are experiencing come from the franchisees.”

Was Jonathan Epstein born to follow the franchise model to phenomenal success? With a dad who owned 37 Midas Muffler shops, it’s possible! But as he embarked on his own ventures as a young man, he saw in franchising a natural, logical extension of his entrepreneurial nature — with playbooks for rapid scaling. Sixty-seven Planet Fitness franchises later…

Join Ab and Vini as they welcome Jonathan to the podcast and learn his lessons on establishing a deep understanding of any market you aim to expand into — and making as much noise as possible when you do! The vital importance of being available to your people. “The energy test” potential ‘Zees should give themselves when choosing a franchise. The COVID response that drew Planet Fitness members closer to the franchise — and to each other. And the downside of a hyper-focus on growth.

Transcript

 Hi everyone, welcome and thanks for joining us for Stars of Franchising. Get ready for a roller coaster ride through the world of franchising as we bring you the best stories of inspiration and entrepreneurial grit and turning dreams into franchise realities. That's right Vinnie. From emerging to global brands, we'll chat with the genius minds behind the magic. All brought to you by the Tariq Farid Franchise Institute at Babson College. I'm Ab. And I'm Vinnie. Now buckle up for some serious inspiration.



 So excited for our guest Jonathan Epstein. Jonathan, welcome my friend.



 Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, we are as well. And we here at Babson, we always love to start our discussions when we're fortunate to have someone with your experience and background on tell us a little bit about your why and what caused you to do what you do. At least maybe you're to start with your franchise story because I know you're doing some new and exciting things now. But tell us a little about your story with franchising and the why around it.



 Sure will do. And again, thanks for inviting me to help out on this podcast. I grew up with a father that was in the franchise business. He had at 1.37 Midas Muffler stores. At a young age, I would spend weekends working in Midas stores, cleaning them, washing windows, putting away mufflers and breaks and watch to the business scale from one location to eventually 37 Midas stores. So it's very comfortable with the franchise model growing up and after a number of different



 jobs, after graduating college, I ended up coming back to Babson to get my MBA.



 And one of the partners at the firm that hired me approached me about starting our own business. And I had done I had started three businesses from my ages 21 to 32. And we ended up in the health club space with our own branded company called Core Fitness.



 And they had kept our eye on Planet Fitness when they got on our radar when they had about eight or ten locations. And we approached them when they had about 40 locations and have been franchised these for the past 14 years. So for me, franchising was just a natural extension of being an entrepreneur and gave you the framework to scale quickly if that was the appetite, what you wanted to do. Thank you, Jonathan.



 Jonathan, if you could describe what, in your opinion, things that people misunderstood the most about franchising.



 I'm sorry, that what is not understood or? Yeah, what do you think people misunderstand the most about franchising?



 You know, it's interesting because I think a lot of people who are looking from the outside in think that franchising gives you the complete roadmap to success when really all it does is give you a light framework and some tools to be able to make decisions about purchasing



 for the retail space, how it will be laid out. But you are running your own operation day to day. And there aren't you have to make your own decisions. Just as if you had your own business. I think, you know, Planet Fitness, there's over twenty one hundred locations in the United States now and there's eleven groups with over seventy five clubs, our group included. And all of these people either came from outside of the franchise world, running their own business or from corporate finance. So franchising is not a guarantee for success. And franchise owners are their own business owners. You know, I've heard it said before, well, you're not really running your own business. And that couldn't be further from the truth.



 Then Jonathan, does that mean when you say you get a framework, does that make a franchisee or a franchisor less of an entrepreneur?



 You know, my opinion, I think franchising is even more entrepreneurial because sometimes when you're given that framework, you're you think you're boxed in and you have to follow to a tee all the steps on a roadmap to success when, quite frankly, looking at any of the larger franchises out in the retail space or the service space, all of the great ideas that you're seeing that customers are experiencing come from the franchisees who are looking to grow their business. I'll give you an example. Planet Fitness, the Black Card, which is one of our two memberships, came from a franchisee, the Black Card spot. All that development came from franchisees. A good franchise group will push the franchisor to develop the brand because they're on the ground day to day with their customers.



 Yeah, I mean, that's so fascinating and music to our ears that you said that because, you know, much like other brands, the Munchkin, for Duncan, the Egg McMuffin, you're right, Jonathan, that's the franchisee. And you do have to be entrepreneurial. So so love hearing that. And from someone who was to build on that, from someone who was in the Planet Fitness system relatively early, can you talk about some of that early innovation and maybe a few failures either that you had or you saw and what you learned from them and then maybe what being as part of the franchise helped you either navigate or hindered you.



 All right, so let's try to chop this up into some smaller segments early on. So early on, Planet Fitness, the history of Planet Fitness, which you can read about the, you know, the original founders who have since sold and now the company is publicly traded, had developed the $10 a month business model as a means for survival when another gym opened up within three tenths of a mile from a club up in New Hampshire and they were having their lunch eaten. And essentially, they didn't have the money to invest in CapEx to be able to out gym, if you will, out equipment the new competitors. So what they did was they dropped their price and no one had ever gone to a $10 a month price point. That was, in essence, the beginning of developing the franchise model for what Planet Fitness became.



 So, you know, when you look at the day to day, that was the idea that sparked the whole



 conceptualization, if you will, of Planet Fitness. Now, I'm sorry, the other the free part question. I want to make sure I answer everything in order. That's great. The second part was what, you know, along that growth of the brand, you know, what failures have you seen or did you experience? How much time do we have for this podcast? I know there's only one. I know you didn't have many because how successful you are, but



 maybe the top one or two. So, OK, I can give you I can give you a few. So as a franchise, the one of the hardest things is when when your franchise or developing in-house computer system. So as a corporate entity, and this has been fairly well documented outside of Planet Fitness, they tried to develop at one time a P.O.S. system called Visionary. That point of sale is P.O.S. is something point of sale. It turned out to mean something very different for the thousand plus clubs at the time where we actually could not bill because the system wouldn't connect. So on a larger scale level, that was one of one of the failures that we had to deal on a corporate, on a smaller level. I think one of the biggest failures that we were in or roadblocks continually is not understanding how each different market has subtle nuances when you're going in with a new club. And I'll say now they have the people in data analysis to really give you more information to make smarter business decisions. Eight or ten years ago, you would try to model a market for a new club against maybe eight or ten clubs that you owned and see what types of tactics would work, how big the club should be built out, what types of signage you should use based on what had been successful, and then develop your forecast based on what you thought the club would ramp up to as a comparison to another existing club. And I would be lying to you if I said we have a foolproof model so we open a new club. I can forecast within eight or ten percent. Some clubs ramp very slowly and over time, the momentum builds. And some clubs, we had a club in Worcester that we were having people driving in, listening to the radio and signing up curbside three weeks before the club opened. So you try to take in all the variables and look at what affects a pre-sale and an opening of a club. But inevitably you have to be ready for how you can change your strategy if you're not hitting your numbers when you're trying to ramp a club. My business partner is also a Babson alum. He said you only have one chance to have a pre-sale and a grand opening. And we put so much effort and monies into building that energy to get the club on the map. Even now that we're so well branded, you just have to make a lot of noise in the market and look at all the different levers you can pull to get people to take a chance to come in and see your club. Because inevitably Planet Fitness, a lot of people look at the ten dollar price point and assume what they're going to see is a ten dollar amount of gym. And that's completely the opposite. Most groups ourselves included way over build our clubs. Our locker rooms I would put against the Equinox Lifetime Fitness. We want people to be overwhelmed and not be able to understand how we can make money in this business. Right. Because we overspend and build out the club. We want them to be wild. And I think that it's an interesting point because Planet led the way in creating the category as you know it better than I do, Jonathan. They refer to it as within the gyms, HVLP, high value, low price and not $40 a month with not a great club. So that's a lot of innovation right there in itself for what does your customer really need and want. So great example. Right. And you know, it's interesting you say that because in the HVLP model, there are competitors of ours that do cut corners. And a lot of times that hurts the whole business segment because the number one way we get members is from existing members. It's customer referrals. We track that a number of ways. And we we have to make sure from the the delivery system of our employees, every touchpoint, everything in the club that people are are completely overwhelmed with how well the club looks, how great the equipment works, the availability of free group fitness training, the black card spa.



 Those attend that attention to detail. We can drop in to other towns and cities where their competitors that may not be as well established or maybe entrenched, but we've we've shot them. We've seen what they can do and we can go make our mark very quickly. But it takes a team effort. You know, on the on our level at Core Development Management, we have our own strategy of how we want people to think about fitness and how we deliver it to our members. And we're constantly hammering home our values that to our new hires and existing hires, because it's something incongruent with our goals as a Planet Fitness franchisee. It becomes very evident when we're in a secret shopping of clubs, when we're doing a quarterly review, because again, we want people to sit down, having a coffee in the morning or, you know, at a dinner with their friends and they mentioned Planet Fitness and people will say, well, what do you think? It's ten dollars a month. And the story that they're going to tell is about our commitment to, you know, overshooting the bar, to making sure that everything exceeds expectations. And that takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of buy in from our employees.



 Jonathan, when you we're going to remain on this question a bit, I'm going to expand on it by asking you to sort of outline what successful franchisees do and also you flip it and also tell us the top things that successful franchisee do.



 OK. Yeah.



 Well, the first thing I would say to be a successful franchisee, you need to be able to have a network of franchisees that will share ideas and be available to one another. And one of the one of the things that I'm most grateful for about the franchise network of Planet Fitness are there are people that are always available. If you have a question, I can remember going to my first franchisee conference at the Hard Rock Cafe in Port Lauderdale, 11 years ago, the largest franchisee was named Joe Pepe. He had 11 clubs in Connecticut, which seemed like a huge number and they were all converted world gym.



 So the meeting was about two hours. The whole weekend meeting and the rest of it was getting together with different people and having a dinner and a breakfast. And I got to sit with Joe Pepe for four hours and talked about what our pre-sell is going to look like. What do you suggest? Should we use outdoor media? You know, at the time, you know, Facebook and Instagram and TikTok weren't really in the mix. So what are their sponsor that you see? What's your your average pre-sell investment like? When do you re-equip cardio and strength? Tell me about who you're using for vendors for the interior of the club. So that network, that cooperative sharing of information is extremely critical. And we happened to get in when there was a good base of eight or ten franchisees that had three or more locations on the franchise or level. You know, it's interesting because the franchise or obviously they're looking to grow as a publicly traded company. They have a responsibility to their shareholders. But, you know, our franchise or gets out in the fields quite a bit to really look at new clubs that are in pre-sell that have been open that are mature. They try to look at the time horizon of a lot of different clubs geographically, a lot of different ownership groups and then present best practice. But also give suggestions about what will work. Planet Fitness has a wonderful library of information you can access when you're when you have different things going on in your business life cycle to have that knowledge base available to you. And also they provide a weekly newsletter that updates you on certain things that are going on because at this point, you know, Massachusetts is such a competitive, such a competitive environment. So for a group like ours, where most of the market locations are taken, you know, we're looking at B market and trying to go with a smaller facility and trying to manage our expenses to make sure our clubs can be as profitable as possible. And that information is what the franchise or has been able to do very well in the last three years is be able to mine that data and give it back to and show you. You know, literally, it could be eight clubs across the US and give you examples of where you need to be or what you need to do if you're going into a market because these are examples of other other clubs that were successful. Now, when it didn't exist eight or 10, 12 years ago, you know, that's when we were boots on the ground looking at everything to get people to come and experience our club. Now, the data is there, but you still need to have at least someone from corporate that understands the market or go and learn the market on your own and talk to other businesses, which we do quite a bit of. You know, I'll be I've been in locations where I've been two weeks in a town or city networking through the Chamber of Commerce, talking to big independent business owners and really finding out what what drives that economy within a smaller town or city. Because they all have their own nuances and you have to if you overlooked that you're going to fail.



 Well, that's that's fascinating. And you point to a little bit about the power of that network, Jonathan, and how it can help you as a franchisee and then and also the franchise or participating in that work. Can you talk a little bit about the, say, selection process for someone considering franchise? And we teach in our course, you know, the value a lot about, you know, that network and evaluate. Can you talk about how you'd go about it if you were entering it again or how someone should about evaluating a franchise or did you talk to franchisees? Should they? Sure. What should they look for? Because there's a lot of good stories and bad out there.



 Yeah, no, absolutely. And a lot of Planet Fitness franchisees that have experienced tremendous success now are in second or third franchise businesses that may or may not be related to Planet Fitness, better in the health and wellness space to some degree.



 So when you're looking at a franchise business, from my perspective, the most important thing before you really start to delve in is to understand why you're looking at a franchise business and what your energy is about that relationship. You know, I talk to people at work sometimes in very gray ways, but very I am moat and say what you do on a daily basis has to raise your energy. You have to, you know, be mindful of what's going to get you up out every day and put you into that extra year because you love what you're doing and you're making an impact because at the end of the day,



 a successful business person franchise or not, you can say they have to love what they do, but you have to get that visceral response from the creation and the maintenance of your dream as an entrepreneur.



 And, you know, Planet Fitness, sure, there are many days where I feel like I'm going through the same steps over and over again. But I know because I'm in clubs that work out there. We're changing lives.



 We are absolutely 100 percent changing lives. And that's very powerful. And to get that 90 percent of the population or that 88 percent of the population that won't go into to a gym to come into a Planet Fitness is incredibly rewarding on a personal level. It's, you know, when you look at a franchise business, if you grew up in a food service business, you might have had a family member in Dunkin Donuts, or that's what interests you. There are so many opportunities. I would absolutely 100 percent spend the money going to visit four or five. If it's a new franchise concept, go visit as many locations as you can afford to find out who these people are. What are the commonalities that they have, you know, that together to create the story of why they were drawn to that brand?



 Because at the end of the day, the people that you connect with and that are going to be your mentors, their passion is going to raise your energy to be as successful as you possibly can. And the people that mentored me early on in Planet Fitness, those are the people I still credit with a lot of my success because they were always available. I would call someone on Christmas Eve at nine o'clock with a question because we had a major issue going on in some of our clubs and the person walked out of a party. You spent five minutes on the phone. I wrote down as many notes I could grab. Call my business partners. We talked to every manager and we hit the ground running the next day. But that is it's the belief in what you're providing.



 Jonathan, what is one lesson that franchising has taught you that you think everybody should know?



 Wow, there's so many.



 Okay. The top ones in that case. Okay.



 First things first, I would say that to be a successful franchisee, you have to understand how to build the teams that can support your vision. You have to understand how to be flexible in your vision so people take ownership in the goals that you set forth. We are constantly adjusting. You know, we'll give our quarterly reports letting everyone know the state of our business.



 But making sure people are continually buying in because at the end of the day, you know, one club, we're 67 locations now. That responsibility and passion for what we're trying to achieve has to go down to the managers of the club. Now, I would be remiss if I didn't say I wanted every staff member to have that as well. But the chain of command that area supervisor that regional manager has to walk the walk and talk the talk that we espouse every day because when the staff sees what they're doing, I'll give you a perfect case in point. I used to walk into clubs all the time. I was driving home with my kids from a sporting event. I knew one of our clubs is nearby and I drop them off to get some food and I walk in for 15 minutes and dump the garbage pails or, you know, clean up something to say, what can I do for five minutes? And they are like, who are you? And I'd say I'm one of the owners. I'm Jonathan. You know, I you know, you might have heard my name. I've been in the club a bunch of times, but I want to help out because, you know, you have to invest in your people and you have to make yourself available to help them because at the end of the day that for me, my essence, if you will, is energized by helping others by, you know, making sure that the that we can create infinite possibilities for other people because they believe in the brand and they believe in our mission. I know that might sound a little nebulous, but it's the truth because successful people imbue other people with the belief that anything is possible. And that's what we try to do.



 That's powerful because it points to just being in your stores, right? And just not just being in stores, but being engaged and leading by example. We've heard that from others and letting people know your employees that one, they're important, but two, there's a pathway for them. It sounds like your employees. Have you had some in there that have started and at the front desk in our, you know, regionals now talk to me a little bit about that. Well, so we have. Yeah. So I love to tell these stories. Thank you for asking that our COO was in between jobs and started the front desk person at one of our clubs in Worcester. You know, he's in his mid 30s, bought his own home, is incredibly successful, didn't graduate college and just has taken on every single new project who gave him and stood in his greatness because he had the support of a team. The other day I was at our old office, which is above one of our warehouses for our equipment. And I was sitting with two of our area directors and our top area director overseas, 32 clubs, you know, was had left Arizona because his family's business, which was a concrete business was failing. He knew he wasn't going to stay there for the, you know, to see what happened. His brother took over the business. He came back home to stay with a friend for a month to see if he could find a job and he got a job at one of our clubs as an evening closer. So he was there only at night.



 He ran into one of my business partners who was coming home from summer, walked in for half an hour. They ended up chatting and now he's an area director 10 years later. So though, you know, we always try to hire from within because those people that are able to see that career path will constantly tell them these are our success stories. These people started on the ground, you know, being six, 10, $12 a month and that opportunity is there if you want it. And I believe that to this day, I think that, you know, the most successful organization to be them business sports are people that the system, which I, what is the system? How are we going to create greatness? And that is very powerful. Even if you look, you know, someone like someone that tried to we ended up selling a few years ago to a private equity group and have grown from 20 clubs now over 60 with their help. And one of the groups that was trying to buy us a family, family managed fund, the biggest holding they had was 65 Taco Bells. And I, you know, I'm sitting there listening to this story about how they went in and bought these and he looked at me and he said, if I showed you the metrics for the South, the southeastern part of the United States and how big Taco Bell is and how well this franchisee ran his group, you would have pulled the money and tried to buy it. But you do have those great owners that are always available to promote from within that walk the walk.



 And, you know, when it's part of who you are, it's really easy because there's no there's no artistry. It's just basically who you are. It's what you, you know, my greatest successors are the ones where I see other people outshine what we believe they could do because we gave them the tools to do it. Well, that, you know, that one of the things that if I may, Vinny, then I'll turn it back to you. You know, that that leads me to this discussion topic around social impact, you know, access for for many, you know, we're seeing an intersection of franchising that because of what you've described a few times today, Jonathan, the community focus, knowing it from on the ground. But can you talk about how important that topic is and how you see these opportunities for people and and.



 I would love to do that. So let's talk about social impact for a minute. Several years ago, Planet Fitness decided to hang their hat on the Boys and Girls Club and getting very involved with the Boys and Girls Clubs.



 So for my group, it resonated 110 percent because my business partner, who's the CEO of our company, not only grew up at the Boys and Girls Club in National Hampshire, but he was able to, because of the swim program in the Boys and Girls Club, get a scholarship to UNH because of his swimming. And that was able to get him his first job. So when, you know, we're we're involved with the Boys and Girls Club on the ground developing and building these smaller Planet Fitness gyms for these kids that the Boys and Girls Club is an integral part of their day to day survival. You know, we built a club in Lowell, built a club when I said built the club, we built a mini judgment free zone. So it might be a four to eight thousand square foot gym where we donate all the equipment, we'll put it in the rubber floor, we'll paint it. And this has such a huge impact on these communities. I took my father, who's 86 now, to three of two of these mini judgment free zone openings and to see the look on these kids eyes when you give them a state of the art gym, now be it smaller, where they can go after school to play basketball, to work out for 45 minutes on the weekend. And they can they can go somewhere where there's actually functional equipment is just incredibly rewarding. But it's what is the right thing to do? You know, I was very pessimistic about some of these larger corporations that would come up with these bold things. A weird, you know, this is who we are. This is how we're going to impact the community for us. It was very natural. I'm glad Planet Fitness chose the Boys and Girls Clubs. And I didn't have any experience with them. I grew up on the North Shore and small, small community by the ocean. And there wasn't a Boys and Girls Club. There was a YMCA and it was falling apart. But these organizations are affecting people's lives and be able to do that. So, you know, a young kid or even someone older can when they go in in the afternoon for an hour and a half to maybe just meet someone or go to, you know, see someone speaking or talk about redoing your resume, they can use the gym.



 And that plays well. And it's it's good. I was going to say, does that does it sounds like what you're saying, too, and you were seeing it is because the franchise model has franchisees who are from the community and tied to the community. It's it's a nice model for for that connection. Is that fair to say?



 Oh, absolutely. And now Planet Fitness has been more has been focused after the pandemic on mental health. And I've been pushing with corporate and mass general to work on a mental wellness initiative because we all know that the benefits of exercising that can impact your mental state. But we're really trying to bring that to the forefront. So people that are coming in and can understand it, but also to make it available for the medical community. So they understand with their patients or people coming in, look outside just the day the treatment once a week of, you know, if you're sitting that you're having to. A telehealth meeting or sitting with someone about how exercise can impact people because then the day, the greatest thing for that. No, go ahead.



 It's going to say because at the end of the day, the greatest thing about this business model and what we're trying to do is we're changing people's lives. That might be a few steps every week. It could be in a year, a major transformation, but we're giving them the tools to change their life. And that can be weight loss. It doesn't have to be weight loss. That can be improved energy. Doesn't have to only be improved energy that can be giving them the mental boost because they're seeing that they're committing to two, three days a week or more that they can follow a schedule because the number one excuse is you don't have enough time. And like anything, you know, as an educator, you're pulled in a million different directions, but you have to make the time for the things that will make you more effective. And we believe we're a tool to make you more effective.



 Jonathan, you mentioned mental health and then partly because of the pandemic, the lockdown.



 Was there any big innovation during the pandemic, big innovation in franchising that you think is going to change the future of franchising?



 Do you want me to speak from my experience? Yes, please.



 So, you know, during the pandemic, Planet Fitness was fantastic in developing videos that were available for free. Some people could work out from home. So they were one or two times a day. And then as they developed the app going away from a key tag where you were just swipe, having that information on your phone with a QR code for your membership, but being able to track your workouts, but also being able to get in a network of other members and talk about what types of experiences you're having. And how to develop a roadmap for success. I think it's that community that came out of a technological need post pandemic. You know, people were afraid to interact and actually pull out their key tag with their mask on at the front desk because they don't know if the person at the front desk with a mask could transmit COVID to them. So we developed a touchless use of our phone with an app. You could check in as you were coming in, so you don't have to stand in front of someone. But that information, now there's a real network because I can go on and, you know, we're doing something with Amazon and another couple of months. So all the partnerships we have with national retailers so people can get discounts, that's said right to your app. So if there's a new workout that's available or a club, yes, new equipment, or we're opening up a new club and you might live in Marlboro, but work in Newbury Port. Well, there is, there are two, there's one in Newbury Port, there's one closer to work to be able to tell you if you'd want to go over there and see that it's tracked you and you're allowed to track you. It'll say there's a plan of fitness two tons a mile from your office if you want to work out here. Wow. That's great stuff.



 That's great stuff. Which is great because, Oh, go ahead, please.



 No, I was just going to say that the, that, that's a bad excuse. You know, I don't have enough time. Right. Massachusetts or planet fitness is there, is there second largest market as far as number of clubs?



 So there's no excuse. You know, we have people that come here only on the weekends where my, where our corporate offices and they have two or three options where they can go and just keep their gym bag in their car. It's, it's just, you know, you have to make the time to fit it in. Just like with everything else that you have, that's a priority.



 It becomes a part of your life and your lifestyle. And I love the passion around giving people the tools to change their lives. So kudos to you. One last question before we wrap, ask you for some closing thoughts. You've seen a lot of change, Jonathan, you've made change in innovation. And not to speak for you, but it sounds like you're bullish on franchising overall in the right situations.



 How about a little bit of, of looking forward to either a current trend that'll most shape the future of franchising or, or maybe how franchising in your mind can, can help scale, you know, some new trends or, or opportunities for the future?



 Sure.



 If I, you know, looking at franchising now in the United States, you know, Planet Fitness is, is at a, a turning point in many ways because they're developing smaller markets. A lot of the big markets have changed, have, you know, become well-gymmed, if you will. They're, you know, we're in a lot of these, okay, saturated. So looking at what the membership needs additionally to just fitness. And they've, you know, we, we, we went back in the podcast, we talked about, you know, early on failures. One of them I forgot, or, you know, wanted to forget was they tried barber shops, you know, to have haircuts.



 You know, didn't work for a lot of reasons, but to, you know, as the brand evolved and we stay true to our core offering, wellness does not necessarily have to mean just exercise. Wellness can mean meditation. And we're testing these meditation pods, you know, additional things that when you come in, if you're there 20 minutes and you don't want, you could use a black card spot for a hydro massage and just relax. You know, you could use additional amenities. So it just becomes more of a hub of wellness because the end of the day, if you walk into a gym, that's just free weights. And if you treadmill, the consumer that's purchasing that is vastly different than what happens to that of a planet fitness.



 So it's testing those things to be able to see how you can differentiate and then add to the, the offering that will resonate with the consumer. Then the second part of the question I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember was talking about scale or. Yeah. I think, well, I think you answered, I was just, if there was anything that, you know, use any applications that the ability to scale via franchising in the future could provide, but it sounds like, you know, you identified.



 So, you know, looking from the inside out, it would be great if the, you know, some of the France, and I imagine this is happening. Is it some of the bigger, the franchise models that are coming out where there is an opportunity to scale and helps entrepreneurs understand that and scale as quickly as they have the appetite for.



 There, I won't name the person or the area, but there was a very, there is a very well known planet fitness franchise that you came from the private equity world. And this gentleman bought one of the demographic area that was one of the biggest in and around the biggest one of the biggest cities in the United States. And when I heard what he was doing, I said, wow, that's very aggressive. But he had come from another, he come from a totally different world, understood exactly how to build it, done two years planning everything, and literally put up 25 clubs in a densely populated urban market within two and a half years. You know, it just seemed incredibly hard to do. And I think there are people out there that have that appetite that are coming from a completely different business or different, you know, experience for their vocation and see the opportunity because I can't tell you how many people would ask me, you know, nine, 10 years ago. So what business are you in? And I'd say Planet Fitness, and it didn't register or, oh, you're in the gym business. And then Planet Fitness started to do their New Year's Rock and E's and their fall drops and you started to see more ads. Then all of a sudden people said, so Planet Fitness, how many clubs do you have? And I tell them how many clubs I had. And then, you know, the next summer rolled by and someone said, hey, I joined one of your clubs. Oh, do you own this one? Yeah, we own that one. And then, you know, now I literally went when I go into a couple of places in Boston where, you know, you can valet or put the keys, you can see 60 sets of keys hanging there and you'll see 15 Planet Fitness tags. And these are people that could easily afford to go to a much more extensive club that they know the value of it and the brand resonates with them because it becomes part of what you do.



 I would be lying if I said that the only gym membership I have is a Planet Fitness one. That's not the case. But I use Planet Fitness twice a week on average and then go somewhere else a couple of days a week because it depends on where I am. But when it's $10 a month, why not? And, you know, obviously for me, I know someone is one of the owners, so I'm getting it a little cheaper. But my point is, my point is that a franchise that if I were looking from the outside in, I would look to the people that developed it and where they came from to understand why they're creating that concept. You know, there's a couple of concepts where I've gone in and gone to different restaurants or food service businesses and literally talked to the owner and said, tell me about your plans. What do you want to do? They look at me like I have three heads. And I said, because everything you're doing, you know, your service delivery system, the way the store is set up, you could franchise this.



 Jonathan, one last question. When you look back, is there something you would do differently? If so, what would that be? So, again, this might be a little bit of a soft answer, but I would have tried to live a more balanced lifestyle. You know, growing up with a father that was a franchisee and had a voracious appetite for growth.



 I never shut off my work focus at all. I could be at a kid's soccer game in second grade and be walking to the end of the field on my phone.



 And then after the game, having to leave for 20 minutes because I knew something wasn't right at a club and I just had to get involved. And God bless my wife for letting me be that type of entrepreneur.



 But I look back today and, you know, I gave a speech on my when I retired a couple of years ago or formerly left the company that I'm still involved peripherally and talked about that because I said, you know, I will never get those years back. I will never get those moments back. And I thought this was the way to run a business because I had seen my father do that. But that's not the case. You know, this journey that we're on as human beings, you have to be able to take some time to just slow down, enjoy what's around you. If you have kids, if you don't have kids, if you're, you know, have another passion and live a more balanced lifestyle because I kept saying, oh, someday I'll be able to enjoy all these things. And you know what? Your kids don't get younger when you when they when you finish, you get to a level of success, you're not going to be able to relive those memories. And I was distracted. I was so hyper focused on growth. And it wasn't because of the rewards that would come financially. It was because once I knew that I could achieve that and could, you know, attain this dream we started when we had one club years ago, I just put a chokehold on it. You know, this is what I'm going to do. And I just couldn't, you know, I had, I learned to take my foot off the gas. But you know, when you have a car or a business with an engine that will go, you know, 800 horsepower, you want to hear it roar. And that's the way we were for a long period of time. And I, I regret it, you know, my relationships with my kids now are so much better, because I've been able to spend the time and be able to listen.



 Good. Well, all I heard was purple and yellow and Planet Fitness in my, you know, when I dreamed everything was what worked. Was everyone's bedroom? And I don't regret it. But the house, I'm in a room right now. I hate to say it. That's purple and yellow. And I needed those colors. Because I'm a self expand and the Lakers. Well, you know, I'm a self expand. And I'm looking at Lakers. All I see is Magic Johnson when I walk into the club.



 That's great. What a pleasure, Jonathan. Thank you so much to take time out of your day. Kudos to you. And as you know, here at Babson, you're a great story of an alum who's done amazing things. But what I took away from today, Vinny, I'm sure you agree is just a lot of life lessons around leadership, entrepreneurship, passion, knowing your customer community. So thank you for being a part of the entrepreneurship, franchising and scaling podcast. We hope to have you back on campus soon. And and if we can help you on your journey, let us know. I just I will add, but I want to leave you with one thought because, you know, I say this with I say this with love about Babson. It changed my life.



 Changed my life. Everything when I walked into that school and was ready to decide that I knew I needed new tools to get into a new business because I was ready to start something and I didn't have all the tools.



 I got absolutely everything I needed and it was there and I put myself out there and I wasn't afraid. And I have such love for that school. It's an amazing, amazing place.



 Well, I know I know that you bleed green now to all those years, even though it may not be the purple. But, you know, you're you're a case in point for for leading with action and having an entrepreneurial mindset. So we thank you, buddy. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you so much. What I mean, what an expression of of love for the school. I mean, that you just expressed.



 It's no better way to end this. We're very lucky and very, very glad to have people like you and ambassadors of this institution making this institution even greater. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jonathan. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. All right. You guys have a wonderful day. You too. You too. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Stars of Franchising.



 Stars of Franchising was produced at Babson College, engineered by Travis Gray. Karen Soway is our guest coordinator and music by Ralph Taylor. If you like Stars of Franchising, be sure to review us wherever you get your podcasts and swear the word and share these stories any way you can.