Debra Strougo, Row House Founder, Fitizens Partner

“It’s a beautiful form of entrepreneurship to be a franchisee, because you have so much stability and support but you still are the maven of your own market.”

Debra Strougo worked for the New York City mayor’s office in brand development for “the greatest brand in the world.” But over time her unquenchable passion for fitness beckoned and in 2017 with her husband she launched Row House — now with more than 300 North American locations. Today she’s an investor and advisor — a “founder co-pilot” —  for numerous fitness-related brands, helping them as they scale through franchising and manage decision fatigue, and address franchisor/franchisee issues.

In this lively conversation with Ab and Vini, Debra discusses:

• Why the best ‘zees are the ones who “get on the bus.”
• Her holistic approach for potential ‘zees to make sure franchising is the right move for them.
• Franchisor enforcement options, and why ‘zees need to know them by heart.
• Her seismic shift in business model mindset: from expecting to scale Row House to embracing the franchisor model.
• The ways that fitness franchises are in fact communities.
• Why ‘zees need to map out doomsday scenarios while they plan for runaway success.
• Her mid-career realization that franchising IS entrepreneurship.

Transcript

 Hi everyone, welcome and thanks for joining us for Stars of Franchising. Get ready for a roller coaster ride through the world of franchising as we bring you the best stories of inspiration and entrepreneurial grit and turning dreams into franchise realities. That's right Vinnie. From emerging to global brands, we'll chat with the genius minds behind the magic. All brought to you by the Tariq Farid Franchise Institute at Babson College. I'm Ab. And I'm Vinnie. Now buckle up for some serious inspiration.



 Welcome to today's episode of Stars of Franchising. We'd love to welcome Deborah Strougo here today, founder of Row House and entrepreneur. Welcome Deborah.



 Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on with you both. We are so excited to have you and Vinnie and I usually like to start with a question of your why and what caused you to do what you do. Can you tell us in your our audience a little bit about your your journey Deborah?



 Well, you know, it's interesting. I am a very conceptual creative thinker, but I also love a good P&L.



 And I love the combo and actually it's something I've learned that I do very well. So I'm kind of you know, I love I love the side of the marketing, the clients, the call for everybody to understand their why behind being involved in any given brands. But I really don't like to only be involved in that. I also very much like to see how it translates to business profitability and numbers and really understands everything about, you know, the P&L basically. So because of that, I don't know. I think my why is just finding creative ways to think and work and build, but that anchor in something. And I just I just I just love that from our career standpoint. That's kinds of my why. Got it. Well, tell us a little bit about the story of Row House and then we'll get to maybe later some of the things you're doing now. But talk to us about co-founding it and the inspiration and maybe some of that early journey.



 Yeah, so I think there my why was to kind of bring a fitness industry passion to my business Acumen.



 I had worked in digital publishing for a while under an UW scripts company doing some innovation for them. And then I had worked in New York City Tourism for about five years under Mayor Michael Bloomberg doing just a ton of brand development for what people call the best brands in the world. Sometimes New York City and just really dialing up target users from different aspects of the world. And I got to a place where I said, you know, I know the fitness industry through and through. I understand the wellness consumer and what makes them tick. And that's because I had a side hustle in fitness and wellness and had worked with a lot of different brands and taught myself. So I understood how to motivate people. I understood how to, you know, bring people into your system and then how to retain them and keep them around.



 I kind of learned from some of the best in that.



 And so I decided with my husband, Eric on Frolic, we had decided this is this is something we can do together. And it would be really fun to launch this, this fitness business and kind of a white space opportunity. There wasn't anything for rowing in it really in fitness at large, certainly not in boutique fitness. And let's go ahead and let's go after it because we believe that we could bring the right business operations, marketing, sales, teams, support, all of that. So we did that first with the intention to scale it. We didn't intend to franchise it necessarily.



 Franchising became a business deal path solution. We had different other ones kind of lined up and ultimately looked, you know, to say, if we essentially took this brand and became a franchisor with it, would it ultimately give us what we wanted? And that answer was yes. And so instead of doing it on our own, we teamed up with Anthony Geisler at Exponential Fitness, wonderful man, do works his tail off. And I wanted to learn from him. And that's what I said to him from the beginning, I really just want to see this thing. And I've been fortunate to really see the growth of Exponential from below before when Exponential even had the name Exponential.



 And so that was basically 2017, 18, we were third, fourth brands in, there's 10 plus now and just watched all the franchise processes, you know, through to the IPO.



 And it's been really amazing to see kind of like an amazing franchise infrastructure being built, different stages of it, different brands within that similar infrastructure, what's different, you know, some of the sizes of the spaces for this brand's first brands are different. So the labor economics come out differently in the unit economics or, you know, whatever. So so many learnings from being involved, kind of having that exit for my own, you know, successful exit of my business, but staying involved as kind of a thought partner, right, and being, you know, strategically involved in the growth of my brands as well as Exponential all the way through to IPO. So it's been exactly what I hope to be a really good career, you know, development path and something that I've taken forward into other projects that I've gotten involved in now that I'm not involved in the day to day at Ro House or at Exponential anymore. Well, great, great stuff. Before I turn it to Vinnie, I want to expand a little bit about something you mentioned, which I think is great for our audience, which is this idea that you guys were looking to scale and there's obviously different ways to scale versus starting with it's going to be a franchise, which I think is brilliant in the way to look at things. Tell us a little bit about where you were when you realized that and how you became how franchising came to the forefront of hey, this could be something that we could use to scale. Yeah, so that's a great question. I mean, listen, it's very much about a vision and a market opportunity like harnessing the winds on a market opportunity, having the vision to take the you know, the need state of the market and to solve it with your brand. It's very much I think based on that. But then it has to again, kind of be anchored in the notion that we will deliver actual KBI stats, numbers, whatever, to make business leaders or business owners successful, whether it's franchised or whether it's a corporate owned strategy, it's irrelevant. If your idea and thought process doesn't, you know, deliver to the bottom line. So I think that's kind of what we sorted out was, if we want to continue to scale this, that vision, that market opportunity needs to be met. Like, are we feeling that coming through? And are we able to track it to progress? When early stage investors came to us, we had been self funded. And they said, you know, you need to prove your numbers like you need to prove that you're going to sit your run over. And so I have seen a lot of entrepreneurs kind of come into the space and say, Oh, we're gonna scale like our plan is to scale. It's like, okay, well, just sit me through a couple seasons. Let's see what happens. Obviously, we know some of the best franchise owners have been here for decades, right? So that's, you know, interesting seasonality, the fitness industry is younger when it comes to that. But obviously, there's lots of verticals. Super. Hey, Dave. Now let's turn to the whole concept of franchising. It's not everyone that understands what franchising is all about. And I know there are many people listening to us as we speak that are new to franchising. What, in your opinion, do people misunderstand the most about franchising? What their role is, I think, I think that the best franchisors really set expectations from the beginning. You know, what I've seen in a couple of different places, brands I've been involved in, I've worked with heard from, you know, seeing other people get involved in is unmet expectations. So that could be anything from like actual the actual financials or to the support system. So how are we going to support you? Are we really supporting you every step of the way? Are we making it clear? You know, I like to use kind of like a re-see matrix, re-see matrix, right? I still need to understand how to say the word, but I understand why. Which is to really be clear, like we will require that you follow this.



 We will suggest that you follow that. Can I provide an example?



 We will require that you use, you know, our technology, for example. But we will only suggest that you hire people in a certain way, because ultimately that is your hire and that is your capability and your estate and your city and your, you know. And so I think there is just clear lines of expectations that if a franchisor does it really, really well out of the gate, and it's something I've learned very much. I mean, I love kinds of like the partnership side and the expectation handling side. And if it's done very, very, very well, it could be an extremely successful experience, but there is a lot of misunderstanding kinds of on both sides. You know, franchisor is kind of perhaps wanting to over promise, franchising kind of wanting to over hope. Why are they helping me with this and not with that? You know, when they were never really meant to help you with that in the first place. Wow. Interesting. So communication is key in that relationship. Huge. And you know, there's a lot of nerves in franchisor. I mean, people sign that FDD and then, you know, we're calling it sometimes there's a moment of buyer's remorse, like what did I get myself into? You know, you know, and questions even, I think franchisees all want to be the outperformer. They all think they're going to be the outperformer. Okay, well, what's your doomsday scenario? And how are we coaching you to see where you are going to really fit in that and what your model would look like? And so, yeah, I lost my train of thought on that one, but it's insightful. And it leads me to this next question around entrepreneurship and franchising. Some may say, well, how is franchising entrepreneurship or you get a playbook and it's mapped out for you yet you allude to that, you know, the franchisee actually has to, you know, execute and deliver. What's your what do you say to that? That, you know, is franchising entrepreneurship and what would you tell folks?



 Well, I will tell you this. It took me a long time to have that pivotal moment when I realized it was. Yeah. How so? As the person who birthed my own brands and I've had a couple of times, I felt like I was the entrepreneur and they were just really the operator. And actually, it was at an exponential convention where Anthony had a guest speaker and the keynote was pretty much about how everybody in the room was an entrepreneur. And it did really dawn on me because they are. And, you know, it's a beautiful form of entrepreneurship to be a franchisee because you have just so much stability and support and processes to follow. But you still the delineation is you still are the maven of your own market and your own choice. Right. So if, you know, I'm going to pick up any franchise location in, you know, the state of I'll use New York because we all know that's where I'm from. If you're going to pick up something in New York, are you going to grab the New York City territory? Are you going to diversify it into the suburbs, you know, and go broader and get a region? How are you going to staff the whole thing with who, you know, what type of community engagement and involvement are you going to have the franchise? The franchise or is going to kind of give you guidelines. But it's really up to you at the end of the day to staff that thing and make that thing successful. And so, yeah, you're an entrepreneur like you're getting up every day and you're doing the thing and making sure that all of these people are there to provide and deliver for your business, not working for somebody else. I think that's also the other side of it. You have hopefully a great partner in the franchise or you've chosen and they're a team. But you this is your business is your baby. These are your corporations, LLCs, what have you. So yeah, you're an entrepreneur. I've learned it. That's interesting. That, that do you when you look back, what would you say is your biggest, we call it failure or something that happened that you felt maybe you should have done it differently? What would that be in the world of franchising? Of course. Yeah, listen, I think in the early days of franchising any brands, there is an element of over promising that happens. And I've seen it again in a couple of different brands and a couple of different systems. But there's this, there's this feeling of like, we need, we need them from the franchise or standpoint, like, we need these guys. And so we're going to over promise and we're going to over deliver. We're going to give them all of these extra extras that we wouldn't normally give them a lot. And that that's kind of challenging in the second wave of the system where you then want to pull back, you know, or the others are coming in wondering why they didn't get the same level of support. So again, it kind of goes through to communication and how would you do it differently? I mean, you know, growth is important at what cost, right? This is the question and making sure that the systems are sounds and all of that is important. But it's also not to say that, that it's not equally important to get the feedback from the system. So sometimes, the reason for doing that is completely valid, which is because as more locations open, you get the feedback, the franchise or gets better. So it's kind of a funky moment. It's almost like you wish that that moment just never existed for any, but it is kind of pushes everybody forward. So I don't know if I would really call it a mistake. I just know it's a, it's a pain point.



 No, I know, Deb, you've got before I pass it on to Ab, you spoke a few minutes ago about what people misunderstand the most about franchising. And I want to just see whether you could elaborate a bit about any myth that you think people out there think franchising is, which is not. Is there any myth that you liked audience to help them to sort of address at this point? Well, that's interesting. I mean, you know, I don't know. I have heard the love of franchising for the assumed cashflow that comes out of it. That is great. Right. And so I think maybe that's one thing. I mean, really, it's that is amazing. Right. You have a franchise or providing you support system. You have a think tank of other franchisees that you're working with on best practices, you know, you have all of that. So you have like truly success to anticipate that you will get to if you do the good work. Right. And so that that piece is wonderful. Right. Like that there should be such cashflow. I think maybe one of the problems or one of the myths is that it's just voila. Or it's going to happen in my market or it's going to be happened because I'm amazing or it's going to, you know, whatever. So I think one thing, again, that I personally would encourage any owner, you know, and I've had a ton of my cash in this business. I lost a ton of my cash in the when I say in this business, in franchising, I've lost a ton to the pandemic. Nobody ever anticipated that. And to watch that all go down the drain is is part of what fuels me in all of my career pursuits now. But, you know, at the end of the day, like the franchisee, I know what it's like to work the numbers and watch the money and this and that. And so when you're in the buying process and you're deciding whether or not you're going to commit, you really, really need to work that model from a lot of different directions. You need to do doomsday. You need to do dooms dooms doomsday. You need to do our anticipated opening to be an XYZ amount of time. But it was really blah, blah, blah amount of time. You need to assume that you're going to hire, you know, some sort of manager that's going to be bad to you and it's going to end up leaking. Well, you know, and then you'll do the flip side scenarios, all the amazing scenarios where I got lower rent than I had hoped and I got a quicker build and great T.I. and my team was amazing and over delivered and they never asked me for a raise and like all you know, the clients were like hanging off my earlobes, you know, all of those things. But I think that that's one myth is just that it's going to be easy. It's going to be what's ever the top of the F.D.D., the item 19 reality. You know, we don't know what it's going to be until it is and there's no turning back from there. There's just no turning back from there. Got it. Well, you know, that's it's such great advice and due diligence on so many fronts, right? The devil's in the details, Deborah, right? And the unit economics and you're you started our conversation on, you know, passion and focus on the profit and loss. And that's so true. And I think some a lot of folks don't realize that. So that's great advice for anyone seeking to, you know, enter in as a franchisee into a system. You know, can you talk a little bit about,



 you know, you mentioned the pandemic and, you know, you know, not planning for that. And who planned for zero in store closures. But can you talk about some of the innovation that came out of that time or things that stuck or what, you know, and how the franchise system may be equipped you all or people you worked with, you know, to really filter out some of that innovation to get through that time. Yeah, I can. You know, I think that it became more and more a validator, if you will, for the importance of client connection. And especially I think that's true in the fitness wellness space where it is habitual. I heard somebody else say that on your earlier podcast that I listened to from the PE group and why they're investing in a franchise system. But yeah, you know, it's a habitual business and the minute that you fracture a community,



 you're almost starting from the beginning again, as opposed to I think what kind of happens in a restaurant business, perhaps where you're just bringing people through. I'm by no means a restaurant franchising expert, but it's my thought. But I definitely know the fitness wellness space pretty through and through. And what we work in that in that world on beauty wellness, truly all of the same is finding that client lifecycle and it's sustaining it, you know, bringing somebody in with the idea that they're going to stay for a really, really long time. And so the minute that they're not there, because you have a long closure, and they've left the market, or they've lost their favorite, you know, instructor, for their for whatever or their friends aren't doing it with them anymore. The community once the community kind of evaporates, that's really what it's about. And so unfortunately, I think during the pandemic in the states like New York and California, where the closures were just a year, you know, a lot of that left, and we had to kind of restart from the beginning. And that's, that's torture, because the beautiful thing about franchising is once you get that flywheel going, right, then it that that's the expected cash flow, it's going.



 Wow. Yeah. Well, in your opinion, what do you think the best franchisees do well?



 And I can then flip it and tell us what the best franchisees do well.



 Well, that's interesting. You know, I am going to quote, Anthony, guys are from exponential on this one, you once said to me, I remember, he said, you know, the best franchisees are the ones that get on the bus. And what he meant by that, literally, when we're going, you know, you bring them in for discovery day, meet the team. I've been working with people, they call it meet the team. But that's the purpose is like, you come in, you meet the support system, we figure out, are you the right people for us? Are we the right people for you? Right. And so in that process, you're also figuring out like, are they gonna are they going to follow our systems? Or are they out think us, you know, and so I've, I listen, I love what makes people tick from the wellness fitness standpoint, but also from their franchise, Z standpoint, I've learned so much about this. And this is all a note to that. And it was basically like, well, we're gonna take everybody from here to this to give them a tour of the business that they will own. They all have to be willing to get on the bus. Yeah, not willing to go on the bus if they want to drive their own car. I remember at the time we came up because I had a baby and I was nursing. And so I wanted to drive the car so I could like pump or something. Sorry, guys. No, this came off. Well, you know, but I was also the entrepreneur. So I mean, the original entrepreneur, I actually didn't want to get on the bus. So they all have to go on the bus. Yeah, so that's really a long way of answering your question. But, you know, following the people, yeah, that respect and follow the system that understands that there is an element of feedback that it's very beneficial for them to provide. There is an element of innovation that always needs to happen. And so, you know, suggesting and putting ideas into the thought mix is helpful in the right place and time. But never knowing more than, never coming across as knowing more than the franchisor. I think that's where, you know, it just gets challenging because the franchisor really has so many points of data and so many points of feedback and is, you know, navigating so much in the network, depending on the size of the network. So I think, you know, finding constructive ways as well for franchisees to communicate is an amazing attribute to a franchisee, certainly in addition to, you know, following the systems in the processes. This is great. It's like just people who are willing to get on the bus or maybe go to the trenches and really have their hands dirty, really seeing how everything works, you know, and not saying. So if you look at it from the other side, from the franchisor side, what do you think, from what you're saying, that the best franchises do well?



 Yeah, I think you're right. Is know all aspects of the business. You know, really, really have spent time working all aspects of the business. I did not know before I got started, I did not know a thing about operating a fitness studio. I got involved in the CrossFit brands because they created a ton of systems and they did community really well. And so I learned a ton by watching that. But then I literally taught a class, I worked the front desk. I didn't really like to clean, but I did it. And then I did the customer service, the marketing, like, you know, I did all, I did as much of the finances, I could figure out how to, you know, like, I really managed all aspects of the business. And so to be a franchisor, then to be on the franchisor side, I really understood the dark moments, the frantic moments that the franchisees have, you know, and, and the pain they feel like the work they need to do to go out and to generate their leads on the ground, I mean, and how they have to kind of balance the needs of all of their staff with the growth of the business and keep people around, you know, all of this stuff. So I think that the best franchisors are people who have the real life on the ground experience to be what a franchisee is. And to be honest with you, you know, who have also seen other models. So this is what I love. Now, I kind of came up on this realization. I'm like, Oh, I actually know franchising pretty well. And so I've been, I've gotten involved with other franchise growth brands just to help them on the franchisor side with the watch outs. I mean, there's so many things and it goes back to clear communication and really good systems and processes and it's going at the right moments and not overspending, but like all of those things, if you're a franchisor and you really open your minds to what's happens in other, in other companies and in other spaces and accept learnings with an open mind. I think that's another place that franchisors, you know, if, if they're focusing on that really can win. Well, given, given what, given that you birthed the brand, right? And you've seen, you know, great franchisees you've had to select your, you talked about the culture, Deborah, you know, what one piece of advice would you have for someone entering franchising and either evaluating the partnership or do doing their due diligence? But what, what, what advice would you give to a listener out there who is considering becoming a franchisee of a brand or even in that process? Yeah, I think definitely take your time to do your homework, you know, and I think look at it really holistically. And so we all know that franchisees, when they're looking at a system, they do validation calls, you know, do some good ones, do some bad ones and learn kind of when did this, when did this franchisee get started? What did they go through? And, you know, just really, really dig into that. I would do that. And then I would look at kinds of obviously that that provides an understanding of how, what success they've had against the franchisor, but then look very closely at your own model and growth and actions and do some research there as well. So really go out and see, could I get real estate?



 How much would it be? How much would it cost me to get labor? What would it be? What, what would my model in these different stages look like? Don't, don't look at others because nobody is in your pocket in your market. And, and also look at your personal situation. How much money, you know, do I have a cushion? Is this going really, you know, whatever, what type of time can I put into it? You know, and, and who will I have to hire? And am I good at hiring? And am I, you know, all of those types of things, it just really, really spends a good solid amount of time there. So that you're not, so that, yeah, so that you're not thrown for a loop. Yeah. And the whole thing happens. I love it. Tough questions, right, to ask yourself, but you're right. You have to do it, especially, you know, I love your comment about the runway, right? If that lease in that location takes, you know, six months longer or hiring takes six months longer, you're not open. That's cash burn. So I think that's great advice for, for folks to plan for, even though it's tough work. And, you know, it's interesting too. This is maybe a little, I don't know, sad or skeptical to bring up, but I am, I'm doing some work with a wonderful woman right now. I, you know, kind of do some fractional or kind of consulting type work in this space. And she is looking to flip from a licensed model to a franchise model. And this is the topic that came up quite a bit when, when I met you, about just, you know, license, the licensing model, they can't enforce as much as in the franchising. So I think it's important for franchisees to understand this too. The franchisor can enforce things. They can alter you. They can take your location. I mean, these things do happen if you're not operating well. And so, and it's for the benefit of the network. It's not to be mean. It's not to ruin her life. But at the end of the day, the franchisor is looking at the benefit of the network. Right. And so if you're a really low performing, performing studio, or if you're not enforcing the brands in the way you should, I think of an episode of what's that show undercover boss and she allowed drive-in drive-in wasn't allowed in the network. And, you know, it creates a lot of squeaky wheels and noise for the franchisor and telephone gain happens quickly and the pressure comes in. So franchisors will want to squelch things that they don't think fits the model for the benefit, but you have to understand going into it as a franchisee that you're going to, there could be accountability and repercussions for you not following the world. For sure. For sure. Deb, is there something that franchising has taught you that you believe or you think everyone at some point in their life should consider learning? Interesting. Well, you know, I guess it's funny. Okay, I'm going to attempt to answer this question in the best way I know how. So it's a good point because you're asking if franchising has taught me something that's bigger, you know, bigger of a play in life. I mean, on the one hand, I would just say partnership, right? How to have really good partnerships with people. I've learned that, you know, how to make sure it's a healthy partnership, not a codedipensive relationship, like those types of partnerships. But I'm going to go a little bit off the deep ends, perhaps in a second way to answer that question. And I think that that might be what I was saying earlier a little bit about, you know, being conceptual and kind of how to be creative marketing minds, but anchoring it in specifics and in numbers. I don't only work in franchising, I work in other ways, I work in other things, like whatever. And ultimately, what I love doing is creating concepts and creating growth and creating all of these things that help you feel kind of like free and move forward. But again, really anchoring it. So I think for me, it goes into like my career beyond franchising, like have growth that anchors in something build, build, but I think it also then take it one step further into just life in general. I mean, life would be free, it should be creative, it should be fun, it should be outgoing, but at the same time, it shouldn't be without any sort of responsibility.



 Towards what? Towards your goals, towards your personal financial situation,



 which kind of sometimes is boring. But that's a great link. And I love the connection point to something bigger. I'm going to transition a little bit. You talked about creating that culture and brand and partners partnership, right? And, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, social impact, sustainability are all things that are very, very important these days for employees, for consumers, for society. Can you talk a little bit about those issues and either growing or launching your brand and creating your culture, how it played a part in your world and what you were growing? Yeah, I'll take it from a slightly different angle, if that's okay. I really, really, really, really care about knowing your consumer. And I really, really care about kinds of casting a net towards who your ideal consumer is, who has a need that you can solve through your brand's promise. This isn't only a franchising, this isn't anything. If you're a business, know who you want to catch. And then what I love to do is go out and market to them, communicate to them, find them, develop them up, you know, create revenue and sustainability off of them. But, you know, you can only really kind of like drive and build a vision by knowing who that customer is. And sometimes there's one main one, sometimes there's, you know, three subsets, sometimes there's five, sometimes there's, I think three to four is the right number, right? And it's not that, it's not, you know, it's like a use case scenario. So, you know, this person is focused on, you know, in the wellness space, we'll talk about like this person is focused on athletic performance, this person focused on, you know, hormonal health. Yes, these types of things.



 But to me, that is extremely important. And then what's also extremely important is understanding your brand's values. So is there a brand's value under inclusivity? Is it under authenticity? What are your brand's values? And that all to me drives what you're pointing to on the DEI. Because



 really, I don't think that every single, listen, we all need to understand, you know, the population at large, we all should be welcoming, perhaps, you know, at some brands, by the way, aren't meant to be welcoming, they're meant to be intimidating and competitive. And by the way, that's okay. So I don't think it's the one says it's all approach, I think it goes back to your brand's values, your why, your founding story, and to the customers you're trying to make the mold are. And once you're doing all of that, you answer the questions of how you want to show up from a DEI standpoint. That being said, I personally would never develop a brand that, you know, made people feel like they weren't welcome in it or outskirts. But you know what, if somebody wants to let them, it's, it's, you don't, you just don't have to patron it, right? Like, it's, it's a capitalist society from that standpoint. So good. Well, and you mentioned earlier that the franchisee knows his or her market, right? And so that's a way to, I think some people realize that franchising is, you know, it's run by a local person in that market. And they need to connect with your brand values and then link that to their community as you stay. Correct? Yeah, 100%. And people have come to me also to say, you know, I'm working with this company and I don't know, like, should I be innovative or should I, you know, what, like, what is my job? Like, how do I figure out what my job is from like a kind of a, like, where, where is the parameters to what to, to like, where I'm supposed to think outside of the box or not. And I usually say it goes back to the brands, right? So for example, if it's, it's hard to just come up with an example, but like, if, if it's a male only brands, let's just say, if it's, there's a, there's a big influx, right? We were hearing this about these testosterone businesses, scheme days or whatever. If it's a, it's a men's testosterone brands, then, you know, your clientele is going to have testosterone in their body. It's just how it is. Right. So, so what are we going to do beyond that? I don't know. Recognize. I don't know the answer to that question. Interesting. So yeah, I mean, it's by the same thing. It's the same, you know, it came up a little bit. I was very heated on this topic about like Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby and they are Sundays and you know, they don't fund contraception. And here's the thing. I'm not going to have an opinion on whether they should fund contraception or not. I just want to make sure that they're upfront with, with people about it before the hiring process, because that's kinds of maybe something that people wouldn't be comfortable with. Be transparent. If that's your brand's value, yeah. If that's what you're making decisions based off for it, make sure it's clear going forward on the people that choose to work, work with you for you, whatever. Otherwise that's just a waste for everybody. But I agree. Full start for an employee. It's like tons of loss of, you know, money for hiring and sourcing and all that for an employer. La la la. Let's talk about trends.



 If you have to like pick one trend or two that is going to shape the future of franchising, okay, be it climate, healthcare, health and wellness, social, cultural, technology, what trend do you think we most shape the future of franchising in general, but in particular to your franchising model?



 Consolidation. Can we use that one? Yeah. Why, of course. Go ahead. How so? Listen, one of the beautiful things about franchising that I think creates a lot of criticism or controversy about franchising also is the rise of franchise locations that you know, and the death of the mom and pop. You know, I do also work with mom and pops and I, in spite and ignite them to be as good as they can be and as unique as it can be, and they can pivot a lot quicker and those types of things, even if there is a massive franchise near them, right? So, you know, we see that in the fitness space. There could be, you could have a Pilates studio, you could have a yoga studio, you could have one off, you could have one, two or three locations. You could pivot and shift a lot quicker than one of the big franchise brands that are in your market, but they probably have more brands awareness. So, I think that, you know, there's, it goes both ways in that I found myself becoming



 when I travel around, I'm a big patron of franchise brands at this point, because I know it's going to be consistent. I've opened my eyes to it. I'm going to have a good experience. The pricing is going to be like at market and usually the service, if it's a beauty or wellness type thing, is going to be on part of what I expect, even if I'm in a totally different city. You know, the cleanliness, all of those types of things are going to be pretty standardize. So, I think that that's a huge trend. Like if we can continue to consolidate these brands and, you know, it becomes a question of there being like less franchisors because there's a crazy number, right? I don't know, but it's crazy number. So, we just saw it in the fitness industry, a bar studio, acquired another bar studio. So, like, validation makes sense for leverage. But then what's going to happen then, you know, that much further to kind of some of the mom and pops. Will that all figure itself out or will there be a swing back to mom and pops? Like, I don't know, let's see guys. What do you think? No, I think you're right. It's great. It's interesting. It's the scaling of this, you know, of the brands who used franchising to scale. And you saw it firsthand, you know, on your front row seat with Exponential. But I loved how you pointed to the mom and pops and the work you're doing, which is, you know, you can survive and thrive employing the same entrepreneurial tactics, knowing, you know, who's in your market and what they're doing, which I think, you know, is lost on some. And I think, you know, I'm encouraged to hear that too. Yeah, before I wrap up, if you don't mind, I was going to ask you what keeps you awake at night when you think of your franchising model. You want everyone to be successful. And I mean, that's hard in business in general, no matter what, right? If you're an employer, you know, you want people to be successful, you want them to get out of their own ways in certain way, but you can't control it, right? If you need to let it be, but you don't want to see people suffer or fail. So I think that's what drives me in general is just to help people help them see watch outs. Personally, I love that. I find it I can see the impact I make by putting up some of the things that I've learned along the way. So, you know, I just want to I just want to keep doing that. And so, yes, yeah, so finding the right places to do that, honestly, is what keeps me up at night. Because otherwise, you know, you just feel like you kind of have a talent and a strength and a knack that that isn't being as leveraged as best as it possibly could.



 Right. Well, thank you so much, Deb, for your insights and and and so many watch outs across a lot of different fronts, as you stated, you know, it's it's it's a privilege for us. And we're grateful to host you as someone who birthed not only a new brand, but in a new category, and scaled it via franchising. So thank you so much for joining us. We'd love to have you visit Babson some someday. And if we can help you on your journey in this next chapter, as you help others scale and grow and create new things, we're happy to do so. Yes, thank you. It's my plan to come visit. So we'll have to have a good time. I don't know but it's my plan. Okay. Open any day, any time for you, Deb, you'll be welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Stars of Franchising.



 Stars of Franchising was produced at Babson College engineered by Travis Gray. Karen Sohle is our guest coordinator and music by Ralph Taylor. If you like Stars of Franchising, be sure to review us wherever you get your podcasts and swear the word and share these stories any way you can.