Uplift Conversations Episode 1: Engaging Men

Keegan Albaugh, Executive Director of the Dad's Guild and Ward Urion, anti-violence expert with the Washington State Coalition Against Domestic Violence, discuss  what barriers exist for men to engage in anti-violence work and how men can be better allies in this movement. If you identify as a man or have men in your life that you care about, this is a must listen! 
 
Episode Resources and Links:

 Dad's Guild Vermont

http://vtnetwork.org/uplift-conversations

Transcript

Jessica Barquist: 0:02

Welcome to the uplift conversations podcast where we discuss the social and community context that contribute to a culture where violence can thrive, and what we can do as individuals and members of communities to change that culture of violence, and create a world in which all people can live free. My name is Jessica, I use she her pronouns. And I do policy and organizing work at the Vermont network. I'm super excited to be hosting this conversation alongside one of my most favorite people ever. Ah, Thanks, Jess.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 0:36

I'm Llu everybody, I use they/them pronouns. I'm a media maker here in Vermont, and a community activist. And I'm so honored to be brought into these conversations alongside some really fantastic humans doing really pivotal work here in the state. Hey, y'all, this is Lou, I just want to let you know, I was part of this first conversation with Keegan and Ward. However, we haven't decided that I'd be an official co host yet. So that's why you don't hear me throughout the episode. But I think you're really gonna dig it. All right, back to the show.

Jessica Barquist: 1:06

I've been really looking forward to today's conversation. Because today we are going to dig into quite a big topic. And that is around engaging men in this work and the relationship that men have with one another. Often doing this work, domestic and sexual violence are viewed as women's issues. And yet we know that heterosexual sis men are largely missing from the conversation. And so pulling men to the table and getting them engaged in this work in these conversations. It seems really important, but also like this biggest mysterious nut to crack in this work, which is why I'm so excited to introduce you all to our guests today. So first step, I'd love to introduce you to my dear colleague Ward, who has spent the last 30 years working with survivors of domestic violence and the last 15 with men who have caused harm over in Washington State. Hi, Ward. Hi, Jessica. Good to be with you. And we are also joined today by Keegan, who has a background in social work, and is the founder and executive director of the dads guild, which is a local organization here in Burlington, that is creating supportive and authentic networks for fathers. Welcome, Kagan, glad to have you with us.

Keegan Albaugh: 2:26

Hey, Jessica, thank you so much for having me on today. You

Jessica Barquist: 2:30

both have different lenses and backgrounds. And I'm hoping you can help us start to understand those influences and patterns that are at work when it comes to the relationship that men have with this culture of violence that we live in. And so men, if you want to change your relationships and the culture of violence, listen up, because this episode is for you. And really, I think this work is also for women too, right? I know, personally, I'm really excited to learn from both of you. So that I can better understand and support the men in my life who are trying to be good allies and do this work, but keep butting up against those very real social challenges that make it so difficult. And just as a disclaimer, I think we're going to be using the term men as like this catch all term today when we talk about, and really what we're trying to talk about is that group of individuals who present as masculine and are assigned that package of male roles, privileges, and stereotypes by our society, but also want to acknowledge the limitations and imperfections of that language. This is I think, my biggest curiosity around the issue. We know that men are the biggest perpetrators of violence. And so why aren't men talking about these issues? And how do we bring them to the table to really change this narrative?

Ward Urion: 4:01

You know, it's probably an enduring question that we'll be asking for quite some time. But most men who hear about or engaged around the issue of men causing harm, immediately go to this, I'm a good guy, I don't do that. Not my problem are many that immediately shuts down any kind of notion about what personal responsibility or what accountability we may have to our community, to our family, to those that we care about in addressing an issue that yes, predominantly when we're talking about domestic and sexual violence predominantly impacts women and children, but also has impacted men and so to talk about men's responsibility, and also not talking about men's vulnerability around that. Both of those are really kind of off putting points of engaged He's meant for most men that had been socialized as male in this culture. invulnerability is paramount, right, and a number one criteria in order to have your quote unquote man card. And then the other aspect of that is that whole notion, if I step into this, do I have to like peel back the layers on some of the junk that's inside of me that, frankly, I try most of my life to avoid? Like, I don't want to see those dark, shadowy spots in my life. And I frankly, I don't want to see it in other dudes either. So I'd really rather just avoid that whole thing. And let's go have a beer and party.

Keegan Albaugh: 5:44

Can I Can I say something? I really appreciated what you said Ward. And I do have a beef with this toxic masculinity term that starts off by saying, Hey, you're the problem. But even more like larger for me is that when the term toxic masculinity is thrown out there, I imagine we all go to a similar place of like, what that looks like, you know, for me, I picture someone who's like womanizing, and maybe it's abusive, and is not empathetic, and not showing emotion or is being aggressive. I think it's really easy to be a a man and be like, Oh, well, that's, that's about me. I'm, I'm not contributing to toxic masculinity. Sure, you might not be to that level of like some of these problematic behaviors. And how are you perpetuating this patriarchal society that we all live in? It took me a while to really understand not just men who are like this, this problem here who are like, Oh, we have a problem with men. It's like, hey, we actually have a patriarchal society, that's a really big problem. And we all contribute to it knowingly or unknowingly in some capacity, I think that piece around when men are being vulnerable, and are sharing how that actually can make women feel uncomfortable, like, ooh, actually, I know, I know, why did this bite I don't, this is making me really uncomfortable hearing men share this. And so I think it's just that kind of reminder that we're all contributing to this man, obviously, are the perpetrators more often of violence, and play a big role in the problems that we do have. But I think all of us are contributing in some way, and just increasing that awareness of the issue.

Ward Urion: 7:17

It is incumbent upon us in this field, to open the door to how men are harmed by these very same forces so that they have some lens of understanding they have money on the table themselves, they have things that they can lose. And in addition to the fact that many of the folks around them that they care deeply about the women in their lives that they love, are also extra vulnerable to this kind of harm, maybe not from them, but from other men in our culture, who had been raised with these notions of masculinity equating to power over and violence.

Jessica Barquist: 7:55

I think that's a really powerful takeaway for your, essentially, this movement, the messages that men are receiving are twofold, working against actually pulling men to the table. On the one hand, we're saying, You are bad, you are the problem. And also, like, why aren't you here doing this really hard, vulnerable, intense work with us, right, that doesn't set anybody up for success? Like I think about if that were the messages I was receiving from a community like there's, there's no way in which I would want to engage in that work or be a part of that, in order to feel a part of it, you need to feel like you're welcomed as as your whole self and its inherent goodness, to even be open to that conversation or to feel like you're part of the solution.

Ward Urion: 8:46

One of the things that is so endemic within American culture in particular, there's this weird dynamic that occurs, and a friend of mine and I used to call it who's got the longest ponytail, right? Like, how can I be the most pro feminist ally possible? Women, who I've encountered who are like, hey, you know, like, I don't want to feminize dude, necessarily, I don't want somebody who's like going to show up more feminine. I want someone who's going to show up authentic. What what authenticity requires of us is stepping outside of that dualistic notion of reality is I am a very complex being. i i comprise a spectrum of emotions and beliefs and thoughts and feelings that go beyond being pigeon holed into either bad actor, or supersweet, never causing a harm to a speck of dust even we have very limited patience or tolerance for the complaint. City of what human beings bring into all of our relationships into all of our identities. And I think this is one of the gifts that trans folks particularly have brought to us is, is this, like, we're not gonna, we don't fit into that. And we won't, we won't be pigeonholed and we belong. And I think this is at the core of why so many men have a hard time finding a place in this movement, or in this work and violence, inherently critical to me as a human being is that I have a place to belong, we have been sold a story that says, in order for you to belong, you have to perform this script in this way. What I think the gender identity expansion Movement has done for us is to blow those doors off and just say, yeah, actually, you can fit anywhere on this spectrum, and you still belong. And that is so threatening to the folks who demand that that script be adhered to performed correctly. And that that is our license. Trouble.

Jessica Barquist: 11:16

You know, what I'm hearing word is, if you cannot show up as your whole authentic self, the easiest, or like, the most natural thing to do is to disengage, right, like, if you're not welcomed, it's hard to be in that space. And I totally can relate and agree to that. And I wonder, you know, or you have been doing this work in this predominantly female movement for a very long time. And I can imagine that you've often found yourselves yourself in situations where you were the only male identified individual at the table. And I'm curious, like, how that experience has been like for you how that's played out for you. And were there things that made that more or less welcoming, or contributed to your ability to engage in that conversation, I feel like there aren't, we know that there aren't many men in this movement, and the men that are here, don't stay for a long time. And so I think you have a very unique perspective, having that identity and longevity at the same time,

Ward Urion: 12:28

there have been very powerful women who have hung with me, you know, and who are very both patient and also in their own authentic power, extended to me the invitation to show up as who I am authentically, and to recognize that I'm neither saint or savior or toxic dude, just by virtue of being in the room, what I am worth, that I bring to this effort to this work that we're all doing is dependent upon the everyday choices that I bring, and you know, that every day actions that I demonstrate, take, if it weren't for those folks, who were tenacious friends, you know, like tenacious friends of mine, that I probably wouldn't have stuck around. There's a unique role that is not inhabited by women in this work, you know, not in a power over dynamic, right. But in in demonstrating a power with a power within dynamic in whatever group or community that I happen to be engaged with, had I resorted to either feeling a victim because I was unique in being one of the only male identified folks in the room, or had I been put on a pedestal. And given some kind of extra privilege, because I was the only person in the room, like be either one of those things would have driven me out. But boy, the power of being given permission to show up as to who I authentically AM, has been a gift to me. And I think it's been a gift to the movement has certainly has been a gift to the men that I have worked with over the last 15 years who have been in abusive, you know, that have caused harm in their relationships.

Jessica Barquist: 14:30

Yeah, that's such great advice to myself and other female identified folks in this movement who are kind of scratching their heads about how we can bring more men in right inclusivity of your authentic self. It's so important. And I want to shift gears a little bit here and talk about how do you think we find these neutral spaces where these conversations can begin to happen and really feel exciting accessible to men?

Keegan Albaugh: 15:01

That's, that's a great question, Jessica. And that's something that all through my own life as male, who is who has historically looked for places to make sense of masculinity and my manhood, and also like, I really like talking about feelings. It's like one of my favorite things. I think the reality is, like, a lot of those places they don't, they don't really exist. Or if they do exist, they're kind of, you know, hidden, or they're small little pockets here and there. But for the most part, you know, I, I haven't seen a whole lot of groups around, hey, here's a space where men can, you know, come be comfortable together and be vulnerable, and share your, you know, feelings and really connect with one another, even though that's something that like, I think, most if not all, men can benefit from tremendously. That was something that, you know, when I became a parent, for the first time back in 2016, that transition into parenthood, man it is, is something it is like, it is so challenging. And you know, I hear people who are like, oh, yeah, you know, it's not that bad. It's, you know, it's been pretty easy. It's pretty smooth. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. And like, I know, there's a list of things going on that are challenging. And if you haven't encountered that yet, like you will, it's definitely it changes your whole life around in a really beautiful, meaningful, challenging way. And all those things can be true. And I think that it's this perfect opportunity. For, hey, here's the time where like, people are looking like, it's hard, like pretty much across the board. It's a challenging time. And people are looking for support for connection. There's been, I think, as a society, there's been more and more of this push to get fathers involved in their caregiver roles. But I think one of the pieces that's really missing from that is, hey, we want you to get more involved. We want you to like open up, talk about your feelings, we want you to have friends, but good luck, you know, go go do it. And it's like, in a beautiful world. Sure. Yes, exactly. But we need systems and organizations and groups to kind of, you know, provide those opportunities to really kind of like, you know, as a man who grew up in this society, like, I wasn't necessarily taught like how to process emotions, other people and like how to be with other men and connect with one another. That's just, that's not something that is really taught, developing that level of like social emotional intelligence, or empathy. Those are things as simple as very similar to how we're teaching people how to throw a baseball, and how to ride a bike and how to read and how are we teaching people to do those kinds of things. And so when we started Dads Guild, it was one of those opportunities where it's like, hey, here is a time where folks can come together, they they they're looking for support, they're being told to step into the roles with I'm not really sure how to do it here, here is a space that people can kind of lean into, and build those connections with, with other men to lean more into their roles as caregivers.

Jessica Barquist: 18:10

So Keegan, it seems there that developing those spaces for men to have that authentic vulnerability and, and do some of that social emotional learning is with alongside other men who are also doing that work and learning is is really key here. And these conversations, like my, my key takeaway from what you just said, is, if we want to influence men, we need to provide them with that, that space, to do it together, right in community, you know, relationships that men have with other men. I think that is probably a key here and how we get more men involved in this work, right?

Ward Urion: 18:54

the script needs to be rewritten. And that's why I think so many of the more effective intervention programs that work with men that cause harm are done most often in a group setting, in the process of learning, that that script was, first of all, two dimensional and not very real. And that it was something that while it gave us privilege, we never had the opportunity to sit down and account for the harm that has caused us to, I think when we have that experience with other men, and has a way of like, breaking through the shell of ego, that tends to kind of keep us from ever examining that. It's so much easier for me. When I see your stuff come up. It's really easy for me to say, Oh, dude, you're being and call you out on that. But until I have that circle, come around and call me out too. There's no way to get on top of this mountain. You That's gonna make me better than you actually this is more of a journey path. And we're all in it together. And we're doing all sorts of different things in order to survive and do well and everything else. But really what's going on is that we're all trying to figure out our place. And how do we do this? Well, and now I'm confronted with the fact that this lone wolf image of I'm all powerful, and I can do it all by myself, is not only a myth, but it's a myth that disconnects me from myself. And it also makes it incredibly challenging for me to create community with anybody, including my buddies, in those learning environments, where we start to understand the value of relationships that are requires vulnerability, requires authenticity, that I can be called out, or called in, and not lose my license to belong. And so what we've done at the community level is to outsource that accountability to a criminal legal system that serves as the collective sanitary garbage man for our culture, and saying, I don't know I don't want to get into relationship with this asshole. I want to outsource to bring him into a position of accountability. Somebody else needs to just punish that person. And then punishment is supposed to be the fix but it is not.

Jessica Barquist: 21:31

well, yeah, it seems like that male connection and friendship and support is, is really key here. But I also know that that can be really, really hard as adults to make friends, especially in our current climate and culture and COVID, and all the things, it's even harder for men.

Keegan Albaugh: 21:57

Yeah, I agree that it's definitely harder for men, men have been raised in a society where, you know, it's word was talking about the lone wolf or like, that was kind of idolized those like, oh, being the lone wolf not needing friends, like kind of managing your own stuff, you know, suck it up, be a man, those kinds of messages where that's, that's what's ingrained in our heads. You know, one of the things that's been really interesting in my work with men and fathers is people being unaware of that need in themselves to connect with other people. I remember when I first started doing this work, I facilitated a monthly group. For new fathers at a yoga studio in Burlington, the intention was to create space for people to connect and share and be vulnerable and just have honest conversations about the challenges of that transition into parenthood. And I remember like, the first day, one of my first questions was, so what brought you here, and pretty much every person was like, my partner made me my wife made me and I was like, oh, shoot, no one, no one actually wants to be here to talk about their feelings. They're being forced to oh, oh, but you know, we we did it, we met once a month for nine months, and to see the group connect and bond and what they were sharing. And then at the end of the nine months, the risk, like the responses that I was hearing from folks was, how do we keep this going, there was a hole in me that I didn't know existed. And then I started having these conversations with you all in the space. And now I'm very aware of that hole and what's filling it. And I want more of this. And I think when that when that happened, it was like, okay, so how do we introduce these spaces and this thing to men, when they don't know they need it? Or want it? And how do we present it in a way that's, you know, really speaking to their language? And how do we do it collectively, as I'm doing this work with fathers and men and like facilitating events and programs? I'm very much figuring this all out myself, too. Like I do these things. You know, I always have a joke of like, Hey, I started Dakhil very selfishly, because I wanted male friends and I wanted to be talking about feelings. And I very much use the community for that I'll come in and be really vulnerable. And it's like, hey, just because I'm the person who makes sure that there's enough money to pay for this kind of thing. That doesn't mean I have all the answers like I'm actually coming here for you folks. Sometimes trying to start something by being like, Hey, we're gonna have a group where we're going to talk about our feelings that it's like, ooh, for some people that might really work. And for a lot of people that might be like a heck no, that is pushing way too hard on my comfort levels. And so we've we do try to provide as many different avenues as possible, whether it's like coming out to a brewery in connecting with people while playing a video game or engaging in a healthy activity like disc golf or board games. Let's just focus on creating a space where you can feel safe, and then when we're there Like having people talk about like, what's really promote vulnerability. And I think what we found is that people really dig it. I've had conversations with with groups of men, after a few weeks are like, Hey, I've known you guys for a few weeks and the stuff we're talking about, I haven't talked about with my friends of 30 years, I've just, I don't talk about this with guys. And then they, so then they go and try to talk about their friends from high school and elementary school about these topics, who they're still in touch with, which is really rad. You know, we're seeing a lot of research out there now around the importance of social connections. And we're also seeing a lot of research out there around how men are really bad at keeping their social connections. I just saw something the other day where it's like, over the past 30 years, the number of close friends that men have have cut in half, that's really substantial. It's gone from like, I think it was like six to three or five to two and a half, like it's cut down by 50%, which is pretty problematic. And you know, you look at the research on the benefits of having no social connections. And we're seeing that, you know, there's there's a research study out of Harvard, that was like 80 years long. And they found that social connections and those relationships, and the quality of those was a better predictor of one's longevity and how happy they were in life, more so than like their social class, their IQ, or genetic makeup, which is pretty mind boggling. We've seen research out of Johns Hopkins that talks about how blood pressure rates improve when men suffering from heart disease have the support of friends and a spouse as opposed to just a spouse. And there's also been some research at the University of Michigan that shows that being a part of a social group leads to a 67% improvement in symptoms of depression. So there's all this research that's out there that saying, like, hey, it's really important to have these social connections to have close friends, this is really beneficial. And it's really butting up against this societal norm of men being lone wolves of sucking it up and not doing things, you know, not leaning into the groups, which not really a surprise, which is why we see part of the reason why we see suicide rates in men, I think I believe it's four times the rate of the suicide rates of women. And it's like, yeah, this is a big problem. And I'm not saying it's the magic cure that everyone just go have friends, but it's certainly this really big piece of the puzzle that I think is getting a bit more intense, a bit more attention. But it's such a critical piece that how do we not only directly connect to like, you know, men with other men and foster those relationships? But more importantly, how do we read kind of, like, create this or write this new script of friendship and social connections among men and and what that can look like and why it's important than let's like let's de stigmatize leading into community support.

Jessica Barquist: 27:44

Wow, you just gave us so much, Keegan. I love everything you just said and add, you know, a woman with a male partner. I love that in your story of the start of Dads Guild that, you know, there was that little extra push from the women in their lives. But then once they got there, they realized how impactful it was. So it feels like one of those key takeaways that that is an easy thing for me to do is to support and provide that space and encouragement. I guess my next question is, why isn't that happening? What are those barriers to creating those authentic, vulnerable male friendships that might not exist in these spaces that are a little bit more structured Keegan that you're creating? Or, yeah, what are those barriers? How can we support this?

Ward Urion: 28:40

I'd love to hear Keegan's thoughts on this too. But I do think that one of the things that Keegan mentioned earlier is like getting together and doing some kind of kinetic activity together. I think honors how men can enter that space. The last thing that I would ever want to do is go into a support group. Just to be honest, like I wouldn't want to go in into a group where we're going to be talking about only talking about feelings. And that's why I like my dream for an intervention group is to do it entirely on a ropes course, because we kind of insist that men have to go through this really narrow door in order to get into that space. And yet, it's really not necessary, right? Like, we can get into that space. Standing on a riverbank fishing. We can get into that space, playing frisbee golf, we can get into that space, playing flag football, all of those things we can get there. But typically, it's easier for us to get there through some kind of kinetic activity. When we're performing in those kinds of physical spaces. We confront our inherent vulnerabilities. They become they're on display, right? They show up we make little errors or mistakes. And that's actually an opportunity for connection and opening up into being like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm just a human. We need to honor the fact that a lot of folks that have been socialized male, are not going to walk through that very small little gate of of I" want to have emotional connection with friends." Yes, that may be one of the things I want, but really, I want I want friendship and I want a place where like, we can have fun, we can be real. And, you know, hopefully I can get some support in the process too.

Keegan Albaugh: 30:35

Ward was talking a bit about how oh, gosh, a support group? Like, no, no, thanks. I'm not gonna do that. And it's like, yeah, I think that's a really common thing for a lot of people. And I think historically, a lot of times, that's how like men's work has looked as it is there. So I think there's so few programs and organizations out there doing the work. And then a lot of times when they are it's like, here's, here's the one group for men that meets at this time, and we sit in a circle, and we talk and it's like, okay, that might work for some folks. But how do we provide different avenues in for people who are at different comfort levels? Or have different passions and interests or their brains function in different ways? Like, how are we providing multiple avenues in? You know, I think it's easy for men to, as we talked about, like a board, I think you mentioned around, you know, it's easy to have, like reasons why you don't have close friendships and one of those things being time like, Oh, we're, you know, we're so busy, like we so hard to make time for friends. And I think that's there is some validity there. And also, it's a really, it's a really easy excuse, we can all say we're too busy. One of the things that I get really excited about in our work here at Dad guild, is that this is like a really amazing opportunity where you have a lot of folks who are transitioning into fatherhood are being faced with a whole bunch of emotions and feelings and challenges that they've never experienced before. And, you know, where do they go for that? It might be easy for a guy to be like, hey, it's important you take care of yourself and have some good friends, make sure you do that, then turn it to Okay, well, you know, how would this be supportive of your partner to have someone outside of them to, to rely on and to share what's going on in your life within processings? How might that benefit them? And then also, how does this benefit your children? Do you want your children growing up? Without friends? Hey, you've seen the research, you know that having friends makes you happier, and you live longer and lower rates of depression helps lower blood blood pressure? Do you want your kids to experience those benefits? Or do you not because guess what they're watching you. And the third watching you, when they're seeing that you're not doing that, there's a pretty good chance, they're not going to see that as something that we need to prioritize. So I think it's something that if you're making regular time to connect with other people, and then you can talk about in front of your kids like, hey, actually, they've done research that shows when you have good friends, and you talk about how you're doing you live longer. That's part of the reason why I'm doing this, you should do. We all as dads like we all want our kids to do well, we all want our kids to live long, happy, healthy lives. No one's stepping into parenthood being like, you know, I really want my kid to fail, and I want them to be miserable. It's like, No, we all we all want what's best for our kids. So I think it's this prime opportunity to really reflect Hey, how, how am I existing in this world? How am I existing within my partnership? How am I existing within my family structure? What am I modeling? And what societal problematic systems and other things am I perpetuating by acting in certain ways? And isn't this Gosh, isn't this a really great opportunity to reflect? And kind of reinvent how I'm approaching the world?

Jessica Barquist: 33:47

What do we do? How does the person who doesn't have Dad's Guild? Who doesn't have that therapist or that already established best friend? Like, what what does that person do? How do they start forming these relationships?

Keegan Albaugh: 34:01

That is a great question, Jessica. And that, you know, that's where my mind is a lot is like, one How are we fostering the development of more interpersonal relationships here within our own communities and within the state of Vermont? And then also, hey, when people from other states are being exposed, or they're, you know, they're getting wind of hey, this is What's this Dad Guild thing? Or what's what are these spaces that like, how are people creating these spaces? I think one thing that you just talked about the importance of modeling for our children, the importance of modeling for our entire society of like, hey, here is a different way of being for men. You know, we see so often men being violent in movies or men in political environments and having lots of power that like hey, here's Can we can we really show this way of being that's characterized by empathy and vulnerability and love and kindness and respect? That like is a different way of being that hopefully people catch on to you in their life. Wow, that seems really cool. And, you know, that's that is part of our work too is how do we kind of create this model that can be replicated in other communities, recognizing that, hey, what's working here in Burlington, Vermont, is not going to be what's working in some places in Kentucky, or even like rural parts of Vermont, you know, if you go outside of Chittenden County, how we're doing things, and the way we're approaching these topics might look pretty different based on what the makeup of the community is, and who wants to come to things. And so, you know, advice that I always have is like podcasts out there resources, you know, check those out, just be listening to things. And then I, I'm a firm believer, I mean, I'm an optimistic person. But I think we are on this path of more and more channels for like this healthy masculinity, where we're encouraging people to connect and have fun, and really explore some of these topics and safe environments. So I think, really be on the lookout for where those places are. And in the meantime, you know, just pay attention to how you're thinking and feeling about different topics. And when that opportunity comes to explore it with someone go for it and the leap of vulnerability, I think, I think that's a really, that's what we really need. Because I think vulnerability is really contagious. And I think if you're in a group of people, particularly men, and one person starts kind of opening up, it's, it's actually really amazing how quickly, people can be like, Wow, that really resonated. Me too. Here's my stuff. And it's like, yeah, this is, this is good.

Jessica Barquist: 36:26

Yeah, I love that taking that leap of faith and getting vulnerable. If our listeners can take just one thing from this conversation today, what do you hope that one thing is? And I will throw it to you first Ward.

Ward Urion: 36:41

I think what I would love to leave people with is, you don't have to show up being some kind of overly feminized male in order to be a positive influence for good in our culture. But we do need to be courageous enough to break the chains of that script that we've been given that says, This is the only way you get to show up and have a license to belong. We bring value in who we are each of us as individuals across a spectrum of gender identities, and that that's so critical and important.

Keegan Albaugh: 37:22

Something that I would want to leave people with, I think that it's so important to invest in doing this work with men, how are we working with the average man around? How are we modeling a healthier version of masculinity and creating spaces, and I think that that is an area of community work that just needs tons of attention, and needs more of it. So never, never underestimate the power of this work and the ripple effect that it can have on on communities.

Jessica Barquist: 37:56

Thank gosh, thank you both so much for sharing your work and your authentic selves with us today. It is just truly a pleasure to be in conversation and community with you both. And I'm so excited about the work that you all are doing. Just a big thanks to all of you who are listening in and being a part of this work in this movement and violence. You know, we we all have a role to play no matter how we identify. And there are these really simple things we can do each and every day that have such a big impact on our culture. And just really, really grateful for you both and for all of us to take the time to think about authentic male connection today. And a big thanks to you, our listeners for being with us today. We all have a role to play in creating a violence free VT. And there are simple things we can all do each and every day that make a big impact on changing our culture, and making it a place where all are able to thrive. You can find more information and notes from today's show on our website at vtnetwork.org/upliftconversations. On our website there's also a forum where you can share your ideas and thoughts with us about this episode, or what you want to hear about next. We would love to hear from you.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 39:23

And if you enjoyed this conversation or learned something today, please give us five star ratings and share this with your friends and family members. Be sure to subscribe for more episodes and together we can uplift Vermont and create a violence free world where all people can thrive.