Uplift Conversations Episode 6: Dismantling Racism

For this final episode in the series, we are joined by our very own Executive Director, Karen Tronsgard-Scott, and board member Lisa Ryan to discuss the interconnections between racism and white supremacy and gender-based violence and how it is imperative for us to acknowledge and eradicate both forms of harm to create a violence-free future. Thank you for joining us! 

Episode  Resources and Links:

Black Women's Blueprint- Restore Forward

@Alokvmenon- Trans poet

Tema Okun- White Supremacy Culture

Imagine by John Lennon

http://vtnetwork.org/uplift-conversations

Transcript

Jessica Barquist: 0:02

Welcome to the Uplift Conversations podcast where we discuss the social and community contexts that contribute to a culture where violence can thrive, and what we can do as individuals and members of communities to change that culture of violence, and create a world in which all people can live free. My name is Jessica, I use she her pronouns. And I do policy and organizing work at the Vermont Network. I'm super excited to be hosting this conversation alongside one of my most favorite people ever.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 0:34

Thanks, Jess. I'm Llu everybody, I use they/them pronouns. I'm a media maker here in Vermont, and a community activist. And I'm so honored to be brought into these conversations alongside some really fantastic humans doing really pivotal work here in the state.

Lisa Ryan: 0:49

My name is Lisa Ryan, I use she/her pronouns and in my current role I am the Associate Dean for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Vermont Law and Graduate school. I am also lucky enough to be on the Board of Directors for the Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 1:09

Oh my gosh, that makes me so happy to hear you say that. I'm Karen Tronsgard Scott and I work at the Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence and my role there is as its executive director.

Jessica Barquist: 1:19

Thank you both. I'm gonna dive right in. So excited to have you both here with us today for this conversation. And broadly, the uplift conversations podcast, you know, we're what we're trying to do here is to demystify culture change a little bit and give folks those maybe not easy, but like tangible things that they can do in their everyday life to kind of make that possible, those everyday actions that might not seem revolutionary on their own. But when they add up, together with other people doing them as well, and over time, they can add up to really big things. One of our previous conversations that we just had was with some men who are doing the work around gender based violence. It was a really great conversation. And I have to say, like, I opened up that conversation with the the question that I've heard over and over again, in our movement, like, Why aren't men at the table? How do we get him here? Like, what's going on? And there's definitely was like, a little bit of judgeyness to it, I think, even even on my part, I will admit, like, what the heck, man? Clearly, you're the problem. So like, why aren't you here fixing it. And the the men who we were talking to, Keegan and Ward, man, they were just so gracious. And they answered in such a way that I honestly was not anticipating. And they started talking about vulnerability, and the conditions that are needed to kind of change that internal schema and how you think about things right. And immediately, as they were talking, I started to see those parallels between their experience of grappling with gender based violence and their maleness and my own experience as a white woman kind of coming to term with my privilege and my whiteness, and what that all means within a white supremacy culture. This parallel and kind of nuance gave me so much more understanding, and probably more empathy for men as it related to violence against women, maybe not empathy, but certainly understanding, there are so many parallels, and these two issues are so interconnected in so many ways. I'm going to throw this first question out to either of you. But let's talk about how are the anti racism and gender based violence movements related and interconnected.

Lisa Ryan: 3:42

One of the really primary things is that they're both kind of movements that are really concentrated on a commitment to really dismantle structures that perpetuate harm and oppression and, and violence against people or persons of a certain group or a certain identity. So I think as just like a starting point, that's, that's where we really can see those parallels between the movement is that we're trying to dismantle these structures that have caused harm and continue to cause harm out into society and in the different identities of people and the lives that they live.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 4:21

I you know, I just really appreciate that perspective. Lisa, it and it reminds me that all along the way of the of this iteration of this movement and gender based violence, like going back to the 1970s white supremacy culture is is involved in all of that. So there's these linkages, but also there's there's these choices and perspectives that have perpetuated white supremacy culture, and really perpetuated the culture that we we tell ourselves that we're trying to dismantle you know, so not just white supremacy culture, because we've only just started to record Notice how we're participating in that culture, especially white leadership in the movement, but also the way that we have embraced the structures and approaches and practices and habits of patriarchy, and how we've perpetuated misogyny in concert with, you know, white supremacy culture, which is a nice way of saying we've acted in really racist ways. And we've harmed black and brown women and their children and their partners, in the decisions that we've made, that are really grounded in a worldview that is focused on whiteness.

Jessica Barquist: 5:38

Karen, as a white woman in the gender based violence movement, can you share with us kind of your process of, you know, what, what prompted you to do your own exploration into your relationship with white supremacy culture?

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 5:54

Well, sure, and I can tell, just let me preface this by saying that this is like for the rest of my life, I, you know, getting it wrong all the time and figuring things out, but I have to credit a survivor that I worked with many years ago, when I was working at a shelter. One day a woman came into my office, I was the executive director of a domestic violence organization, we ran a shelter, and she came in, she was a black woman, she came into my office, and she said to me, what do you think of my hair today? And I said, Well, I think your hair's just fine. You know, what, what do you say? And she goes, Well, it's not just fine, Karen, because I've been living in your shelter for almost two weeks, and there's no products for my hair and your shelter. Not one, there's only products for white hair. And so what are you going to do about that? For me, what I had been living, was living in error like that I was making the mistake on a day to day basis, that I felt like if if we made our shelter and our programming open to everybody, then bipoc people we can call, you know, black women, bipoc people, but people from the margins would, would be served. And of course, what you know, what I learned really quickly was that and in this survivor, you know, like, open that opened my eyes to this was up. Actually, I have to I have to know a lot more. And why did I make this decision? Why did I think it was okay for us to have Why didn't even know that black women use different products on their hair. And so that, for me, that was like the beginning and, and the more I learned about my own relationship to white supremacy, I mean, that's where it starts, right? That's where it starts with an and continues this long look in the mirror, as a as a white person. And understanding and accepting that white supremacy culture gives me so much and costs me so much, all at the same time. And I'm, I'm as a white person, without even knowing it, I can cause harm, and do cause harm to black people to black women. So accepting that gets, I think is important and accepting that it has, for me anyway, given me the ability to deeply explore my relationship, to racism, and to my own race. To understand my expertise in being a white person, I really know how to do that. And to make it possible for me to talk to other white people about that, and be in community with other white people about our shared experience of racism and our responsibility to changing that dynamic.

Lisa Ryan: 8:34

I'll just say, Karen, I really love and appreciate that example. And just like the strength of the person that you're talking about, the the woman who's who's brave enough and vulnerable enough to step up and say that to you, as a black woman, you know, that that's, that's hard to do. And I think another kind of parallel is that like, white supremacy culture does not allow for differences to like, rise up and float to the surface. Like it doesn't acknowledge that it doesn't make space for that. And that's what's what's really harmful.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 9:12

Yeah, I agree with you.

Jessica Barquist: 9:14

That's such an important point, Lisa, making space for differences, thinking about folks who we want to engage in this work, right? Like, how do we have that, like, I need to reckon with this kind of a moment for folks. And I also really want to ask Llu, like, how did you start on this? Oh, my God after you.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 9:34

This is bringing me back right back to 1998. I was an 18 year old and the people's Institute for cultural survival, came on up to Vermont and shook the state being an 18 year old growing up in Vermont. It was again 1998 I just really want to give people that context. Like we were on the verge of civil unions in Vermont. There was barely internet I think technically there was internet but like you know, this was like a before times and all the different ways we did not have any of that cultural movements stuff that we've been really feeling in these last, really last 10 years, I'd say about, you know, these like social movements that we're pushing forward all of these really marginalized identities. And so I remember leaving that training just being completely shook on a personal level, about lots of things. But there was a question that I constantly come back and think about, and again, it threads across gender, sexual orientation, like all these other categories of social identity that we that we talk about that have been oppressed over the years. But the question I remember is, they asked us point blank, all the white people in the room, what do you like about your race? What do you like about being white? And I remember, going beet red, you know, I'm a white person, I went beet red, right? Like, and I was like, Oh, my God, nothing. I don't want to how can I answer that, like, immediately, I realized through that deeply uncomfortable experience, and embarrassment, and that I went right to shame because I actually don't think I like anything about being white. But I also then realize that part of me being able to have the experience of enjoying the privilege, privileges and power that comes from being white in this culture is that I have lost, I've lost my culture, right? I have lost the ethnicity, culture pieces that were kind of part of my family is coming over here. And that you had to really assimilate, right, assimilate, assimilate, assimilate, like give it up, so that you can be part of the like, the power group here and oppress these other folks here. So it's just really that question that kind of resonated with me, and I keep thinking about it. And I've been in trainings where that that identity has been swapped out, like, Alright, so what do you like about being a man, right? And you always get the kind of like, the list of, you know, well, it's short, and then it gets real awkward real fast, right? Like being strong being, you know, all these things. And it makes you start to have that reckoning within yourself of like, wait a minute, right? Or, you know, what do you like about being straight? Right? And then the flip side of the question, when I was in that training, is that they asked all the, the people of color in the room like, what do you like, about being a person of color, and the lists were so long and joyful? And just like, and I was like, Oh, my God, that's that was what the moment was right. And similarly, if you ask that same question of people who are queer, it's like, how much time do you have? Because like, let's go ahead and just like, take some time here, because like, queer joy, you know, like, joy, like, you know, the list go on. So so that, to me, was one of those formative moments. And when I was 18, so like this work has, as Karen was saying, you know, have been lifelong for me too, because it's evolved, right? It's all been about the rumble of where I'm at, in that moment, trying to figure out these other things. But to your original point, just like I think the question here is for listeners out there, not just where you start, but like, how can you make it personal? Because it's one thing to watch all the Black Lives Matters, marches happening? And it's one thing to externalize it, right? Oh, that's happening. Like, yeah, I'm gonna put a black lives matter in my window, like something like that. But that personal moment, when when I had it at 18, and I've had many times since then, of like, getting it wrong, stepping in it and having to sit there and my discomfort and rumble, like, that's actually what I think the question really should be is, you know, how do we get this to a personal level for white folks to encourage them to get into that rumble? Because oftentimes, people are ending their out of embarrassment or stepping in it right. But how do we, how do we invite people into stepping into it? Almost right? That's a really weird way to get to that question. But like, that's, that's my perspective on this is like, what does it take for somebody to get there? And how do we invite them to step in it?

Jessica Barquist: 13:20

It is so important to get those who are holding power, be it you know, white folks, men, whatever it is to engage in understanding the ways in which that position of privilege and power is causing harm. But it's really hard to do, because they're not the ones being impacted by it. Right? Karen, like I could totally, if you were a different person seeing you get defensive in that moment. It doesn't necessarily mean that because somebody points that out to you that you're open to that journey. And I'd love to throw this to you, Lisa, because you not only have such incredible expertise and helping people in the realm of D AI, but you also have a lot of experience working with folks who have caused harm and restorative justice. I wonder if you could talk to us about like, how how do we invite people who are like the problem, those folks in power without getting that shame and defensiveness? And like, how do we welcome them to the table in a way that feels open?

Lisa Ryan: 14:22

Yeah, I appreciate that. And Lou, thanks for that, that story. It's helpful and kind of how I wanted to think about my response. And just to piggyback a minute what Lou said, it's really hard to do. And I think, many times from my eyes, it can seem really performative. We saw after George Floyd got murdered all of these people putting in procedures and policies and principles around dei work and That's, that's going away now. So it's it's like it's now it's 2023, right? It's three years later, and all that's going away when the work should really have been there. You know, from the beginning, you know, George Floyd's murder was absolutely tragic. But those types of things have been happening for years and years and years. It's just somebody who's able to catch it on film, and show the world. For me, I'm like, it's really kind of a sticky situation, because I'm like, it's hard to tell where the people that are doing the good work are innately like good people, but then the people who should be doing the work, and are might be doing it as a performance. And so that's something like I really try and grapple with, and frankly, like, I see this work as, like, everybody's issue, like everybody needs to be stepping up to the table, and addressing, you know, whisper to culture and, and racism and gender based violence, like everyone needs to be working at it. You know.

Jessica Barquist: 16:05

YES, that's the point of this podcast, right? We want everybody to know that all of these issues are everybody's issues. Thank you for pointing that out.

Lisa Ryan: 16:13

And we need people who are part of the problem to step up. And part of that, and I think why we're not sometimes don't see that a lot of times, you'll see it's because of fear. Because they're there, the fear that their power and their privilege are going to be taken away in some way if they start to care, really, and engage in things to dismantle these harmful systems and institutions.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 16:42

Wow, that's, yes, yes, yes. Oh, gosh, I feel like I've spent the last 28 years of my career saying how do we get these people to the table, these people that are causing problems? And so maybe not the last 28 years, maybe the last 25 years? In the last three years? I feel like I've been learning about first of all, it's not everybody's gonna, not everybody's gonna play this game. Right? Right. So let's just know that and let's just know that there are, there's a lot of performative stuff happening. And I've done it too. You know, I and I asked myself this question all the time. Am I just being about am I doing this? Because I want to be seen as a good white person, you know, am I really willing to do what would mean I need to do to, to dismantle my own relationship with power, my own privilege? And how you know, and how do I do that in a way that is in partnership and collaboration and community with the people that I'm causing harm to, right. And so the reality is as as white people, as people, we all cause harm, everybody, regardless of identity, we're all all causing harm. But for me, I've decided I have to stop thinking about it in this bifurcated way. Like there's good people and bad people, there's people. And if I can see the humanity of, of the people, first of all, if I can see my own humanity, then it helps me to be able to see the humanity of other people, and then I can be in a different kind of relationship with them. And I don't get it right. And as all of you know, you know that I can just say what I'm thinking, and it can come off pretty harshly.

Lisa Ryan: 18:22

That's what we love about you Karen. That's what I love about you.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 18:27

but the, Thanks Lisa. One of my mentors, Farrah Tanis, the founder of black woman's blueprint, she says, you know, kind of every word that comes out of her mouth is profound. And so she once said, white women, you need to heal yourselves, because you're killing us. I've really looked at that, and she's performance interrupter. And so she's given me permission to just be who I am. And to celebrate that, and to recognize that I went through the people's Institue to and like you come away feeling like I don't want to be wet anymore, right? Farrah's philosophy, her worldview is that we actually have to figure out how to do all this together. So we need to pull each other closer, simultaneously hold Black joy, queer joy, and understand that what's happening to black people in this country is incredibly different than what happens to white people in this country. I'm not that worried about how do I get people to change their minds? I'm worried about who do I talk to who can I talk to? Who do I need to be in a community with so that we can change things together?

Lisa Ryan: 19:36

Karen, I love I love what you said about the term. I just wrote it down performance interrupter because it reminds me about this perception of ally ship. And I have a little bit of problem with with you know people wanting to be allies because I don't really need an ally. I need an accomplice. I need somebody to interrupt into really I just be able to go down with me. That's what I need in spaces where I'm being oppressed, or I'm being judged or some some type of thing is happening to me that's unjust. Like, I need an accomplice by my side. And I know, Karen, we've been in many, many spaces together, where you have totally been that accomplished. And I'm grateful for that. And I think a lot of brown and black people would be, you know, say the same thing. It's like, you know, they if they had an accomplice, in moments where they're being torn down, it really does make a difference and an impact.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 20:38

Yeah, makes thank you for that validation.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 20:43

There's just so much in this conversation. But that healing piece was a great trans poet, speaker, just brilliant mind of our time, alok, who I don't know, if you all know them, they were part of a performance group for a long time. And then they kind of like, kind of soloed off and they are just like, they leave these nuggets. And they know this moment on social media to be able to, like, let people just like break it down in one minute of like, what this is about, and they literally yesterday just did one about healing. So this is like, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is right here. So they're getting interviewed, and and someone asked them, you know, like, how can I help you? Or something? You know, like, that was the question like, How can I help you or people or you or be a better ally? It was like the ally question, right. And they respond with this really eloquent response, but essentially says, This isn't about me, I'm good. I got, I figured my stuff out. And I'm in my joy, and what is happening here, and the struggle that people are having towards me as a trans person, a very unapologetically very genderqueer person is that they are realizing that they can't, they can't let that out in them in themselves, they have lost that part of their exploration of gender, they have had to give it up because of again, these like, privileges and social constructs that have really put people into these binaries and boxes. And so they flip it around, and they say, my question is, like, how can I help you heal? How can I help you heal, so that you can step up and be right here next to me and like, be with this with me, and it's instead of the queer joy and, and you know, black joy and all this stuff, or a collective joy is like, the ultimate goal here? Like, and again, not everybody's gonna come with us, like, fine if you don't want to get in the joy, you know, in the joy bus fine. Like, you can do your thing. Fine. Like, not everybody wants to do the work, right? Like that, like personal work, but, but that that reversal of the question, I just thought was so powerful as a, again, different way to think about this in a, in this world that can be so overwhelming, right? Like, we know, we all have so much to heal from we all have so much to, to move towards together. So whether we're accomplices or you know, or we're saying the thing that needs to be said in the moment, because it's going to be less flak on you than the person who's being impacted. It's, it's, you know, that collective healing moment can happen. So, yeah, that healing piece, I think I'm taking you back to that conversation we have with the men Jess too about like that, a lot of what they were talking about was needing to get not just vulnerable, but heal themselves about what they have lost, as you know, being men in this society. So anyway, that's that's what I'm dinging the heal bell.

Jessica Barquist: 23:05

That yeah, I love that Llu. And Lisa, when you were talking about Ally ship versus accomplice, the thing that made me think about is how, you know, like, men who don't use harm in their relationship, or, you know, white women who aren't actively being racist in the moment, they're like, check, I checked that box, right? Like, I'm an ally, I'm good. And I think a lot of those folks, I'm probably in that box at times as well, would love to be an accomplice, but maybe don't know how to get there. And so I'd love to dig into that a little bit more, because I think there is this like, well, I don't use harm, or like, I'm not the one being actively racist. You know, I hear I hear that. Not everybody's gonna do this work. And I have to believe that if given the opportunity, and the information that there's a large group of people who would do the work if they knew how, and so how do we get them there?

Lisa Ryan: 24:07

So many things are kind of just just bubbling up. And I think of ally ship. I mean, by no means I mean, Ally ship is negative or bad, but it's just very different than being an accomplice. And it's up to the individual right on how they want to engage in what they want that to look like. You know, we see people engaging in different book clubs around you know, how to be an anti racist and things like that. But we also see the people who are getting arrested at like different movements, that people are getting arrested and willing to kind of take that chance by standing up for what's actually right. And those are, I think, in my mind, sometimes two different people, you know, two different two different mindsets coming to the table. If we get people Well, the tools and the resources and let them be willing to make mistakes in this journey. I think that's that's the point. That's the spark where change can be made, where people realize they can kind of move down the line from this ally to accomplish, be willing to risk and be willing to, to step in. I think that's, that's a good thing. And again, it's individual, it depends on on the person and where they're at with their journey. But if they're just willing to step up and be in that journey, and recognize that, that there's some work to be done in order to to support others. I mean, I think that's what's important.

Jessica Barquist: 25:47

Ooh, I think that's a really good point, too, is being open and willing to recognize and step in on your own. You know, Lisa, I've seen you do this countless times where like, you have to nudge folks to say, like, Hey, this is not okay. Right. And then somebody steps in. It can't always be on bipoc folk to say this is harmful, or it can always be on women to say, Hey, man, this is harmful, right? There's two things here, I think one around, like, how do we do that work as people of privilege together? And I actually might throw that one to you, Karen, because I think you have a lot of experience with that. But Lisa, just to kind of continue with you for a second. There's something there for me around, like, how do you sustain in this work? And how do you like, hold your own there and take breaks or whatever that might be? Right? Because I think there's a lot of parallels there too.

Lisa Ryan: 26:44

Just for like context sake, I was, you know, I think most of you know, I spent four years on the Rutland Board of Aldermen, to the city council, as the only person of color on the board. And oftentimes the youngest person on the board as well. My own lived experiences, you know, that have stemmed, you know, just from kind of like childhood and growing up, but also, in my role as an older woman shaped me and really helped me do this work because I experienced it so harshly. And so critically, I mean, we're on a meeting, and somebody drops the N word. And nobody says anything. Nothing. And so I'm there, like, how is nobody saying anything? And do I need to be the one to say it, and I ended up leaving the meeting, right? Because it's just so much. I do this work. Because I don't want there to be other circumstances like that. I do this work, because I want to create a path for those that come after me to not have to experience what I've experienced in my communities and my interactions. And I'm not saying that, you know, I'm like, this has been like my whole life like this, but I live in, obviously, Vermont, predominantly white state, many of my interactions are with white people, many of my hard conversations are with white people. And at the end of the day, it's it's exhausting. And it's a lot of work. But I do it because I want to make a difference for the people who are coming after me and who are going to do this work to so that they have some foundation to stand on that that is supportive, and that won't allow them to get sucked into this, this kind of turmoil of of being oppressed and harmed.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 28:53

I really want to I want to pull on the thread of what I call the Yeah, but because I think that I think expectations that white people will be allies. I think that expectation is a false expectation. It's we should be expected to be co conspirators at every turn, at every turn. And you can't be a co conspirator as a white person unless you're in relationships. So you, Lisa, you and I've been I don't know how we would have done it before texting, because there's been so many times in meetings where I'm like, okay, should you want, you know, how about if I say this, because the other thing that happens is that all of a sudden, and I've done this, like I'm going to step in and I'm going to enter and you know now I'm on the stage, be in community check in you know, all that stuff. But this Yeah, but stuff is for real. It's a conversation that white people have have no idea. Black or brown people have this conversation with themselves. Like what are the risks? What's the risk for me speaking up right now. So for me the co-conspirator is about willing to take the risk. Yes, you gotta be willing to take the risk. And frankly, the risk that we take to be a co conspirators is, is, is very, is very low level, frankly, right?

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 30:11

And I, can just say too, sSo the check down is real, right? So the check down on somebody who's got the power and privilege and should say something, but maybe it's stuck because they don't want to right, let's just be real, they don't want to feel uncomfortable or have the attention on them. And the check down is real for people who are suffering from the incident that has just happened, right? The like, word that was said, or the like, it's very real. And yet, I always come down to them in those moments, because Karen, I think you and I might be two sides of the same Penny. I'm just gonna go ahead. And you know, a lot of what you said to have said so far today, like, Yeah, I'm pretty much that person who then like, once I get going, I'm like, Oh, where'd I go? I like just kind of like, I go to somewhere else. And people tell me later, like, wow, Louis, I can't believe you said all that. I'm like, what? Like, I can't remember. But I get into this like mode where it's just like, Not today. Not today. Not any day. And I've mellowed a bit with my age. And now I've just gotten to like, what is the best use of my time right now? Like, is this a good use of time? In other words, I'm going to be short and sweet. And the power of no works in these moments just as, like, powerfully as it works in the, in the ways that people were commonly used. No. So it's about disruption. I think in those moments, for me, at least as a white person where someone says the thing, and oftentimes at this point in my life, oftentimes I hear myself just been like, nope, nope. And then like, they're like, oh, but but but and then then there's all this other stuff that happens? And I just say, nope, nope. And it's like, I'm not, I don't, I'm not here to do that labor, I'm gonna let you go ahead and sit in that mess that you just made. And we're Nope, we're not doing this today. So I know, it seems like overly simple simplify. But I find myself oftentimes in these moments where I don't have the energy or I don't have the bandwidth, or frankly, I don't owe that person that work. Or that moment, that all I can do in that moment is just Disrupt. And I just want to like for listeners out there that like if all you can do is say audibly, no, you are disrupting it enough to make sure that there is a a shift that has happened to that moment. And then you don't have to bust out you know, all the anti racism, like knowledge and other stuff that like, you may or may not have, like, short, sweet to the point no. So I just wanted to like, again, in the in the spirit of throwing some hacks out there into this conversation about this conversation that can be so overwhelming and lifelong work. And, you know, we've all got our own complex stuff going on. The power of no is equally as powerful in these moments, I think, as you know, in general, in our lives, you know, like, NO, that whole complete sentence, like what a lovely reminder to us.

Jessica Barquist: 32:42

That feels like such a great like distillation, right? You know, what I'm hearing from all of these stories and conversations is like, you don't have to get it right, right, and there is space for mistakes. But if you lead by your values, if things don't feel right, to stop that and question that, like, then you are doing the work, right. And so you don't have to know all the things, you don't have to read all the books, you have to be really clear in the values and the world in which you want to live in, and then disrupt when things aren't that way.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 33:19

Those values are really important and, and white supremacy, culture tells white people that our values are something other than humanity, then finding solutions together. You know, white supremacy, culture tells us it's about power, it tells us about its commodifying things, it's about being on top and being in doing all of those those things that we do to to promote ourselves, you know, to be in this I mean, it's, it's, it's white supremacy, culture and capitalism.

Jessica Barquist: 33:47

Yeah, yeah, I have to say, you know, I've read a lot of like, here's my dei resource list, or, like, here are the things you need to do to do this work, right. And it's a lot of academic books, and it's a lot of like, here are the things you need to do, right. And part of what I want us to get at is like, actually, like, if we can just get really clear on what our values are, and what we want to live into, like, that's the work and that's where we need to keep moving. And that that view of the horizon.

Lisa Ryan: 34:17

And then set those side by side with those characteristics of white supremacy culture, right, that that Temanku talks about in in white supremacy culture. I love I love those those.

Jessica Barquist: 34:31

tell us a little bit more about that, Lisa?

Lisa Ryan: 34:33

Yeah. So I mean, there's a number of characteristics from Temanku. And characteristics of white supremacy culture, and get in the shades from something like perfectionism, to defensiveness to sense of urgency, that there's only one right way. Those are some of the characteristics of white supremacy culture and it talks about and walks you through how to kind of flip it. So you're so you're not doing that and you're doing the opposite and ways to, to engage in the anecdotes, really, it's what she calls them. And I use, I use those in trainings that I do often because I think it's just a really, you know, we talked about values, it's something really easy that people can use as a resource and kind of find themselves like where they are on that list of characteristics and what they're kind of representing.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 35:32

You know, Jess, and Lisa, you both know that many years ago, before both of you were worked at the network, we got a hold of that list. And I'll never forget being in that staff meeting. And we went through the list and we all looked up at each other. And we were like, Oh, my God, this is us. Every single one. The thing that I've really value about what you're talking about, Lisa, is that white supremacy culture, like all of those things, perfectionism and urgency and all those characteristics happen in a white supremacy culture organization, regardless of who works there. Yeah. Right. So it's not things that white people do to people of color. It's things that these are conditions that exist. It's like the norm. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 36:18

The labeling there of the power of the antidote, I think is really powerful. And I think I said earlier in this conversation, if I didn't, I will tell listeners that I'm a parent, right. So like, I'm living through a completely different filter lens all the time. Now, for the last five years, I've been doing this. And there's nothing more humbling as a human to have to teach a brand new human how things work. I mean, literally, figuratively, but also like how we work and turn connectedly and how we feel and what feelings are about. And I'm just thinking about that list. What I'm thinking about in the parent mode of here is like how do those things make me feel none of them make me feel good? Every single one of them makes me immediately really just like tighten up and get an I can feel it in my body. It is not a good feel good feeling. But when you do that values piece that you are talking about that activity of like, what is the antidote to urgency, slowing down? What is the antidote to everybody being on their own? togetherness, I mean, we're seeing this right now, right, where we're just so listeners know, we're recording this a couple days after the floods here in Vermont, in in July of 2023. And there's a coming togetherness of this, like you're not on your own. And there's a huge difference between facing a basement full of mud on your own and facing a basement full of mud with your neighbors with their shovel their snow shovels and their you know, galoshes on and, you know, there's a reason that it feels different. There's a and that should tell us all something and if that doesn't motivate people to want to get into the rumble on this work, then I'm putting my this is hard in podcasts, I'm putting my hands up, right like there's I just have no words like, if you cannot be motivated by things that are going to make you feel better and feel more connected and feel more human together, then then what are we doing this for? So I just, I think it's great. This, remember the anecdote here, you know, and in my parenting mode, the way that this comes up, I was just thinking about this is that, you know, when we have hard feelings in the house, right, like when people are crying, or they're hurt, or they're mad, or they're frustrated, and we like, externalize the feeling, the anecdote, my kid now says, he says it back to me, he's like, remember the anecdote, and it's the giggles, right? It's like you cannot possibly keep holding on to that ain't that hard, feeling an angry feeling that frustrated feeling if you're getting yourself into the giggles, and so like that power of anecdote, I just like, I just think it's a, it's just a really good thing to remind people that like, there's a reason we're feeling human beings, you know, like, we're feeling creatures like this is, this is what matters here. And that's really good checked out, I think, sometimes also in our bodies to remind ourselves that, you know, like, is it? Is it safe to take the action point right now? Is it not safe? You know, where am I? What does that temperature gauge in ourselves, so?

Lisa Ryan: 38:43

Llu, that that like, reminds me of, I can't remember where I learned this. But while you were talking about kind of your kids, and like, the anecdote is giggling. It's like when when, you know, parents talk about, like, a timeout, like giving your kid a timeout, when really what you should be doing is a time in, right, letting them know, stepping in what's happened talking about it and not isolating. And also, the characteristics of white supremacy don't just affect white people. I mean, this is what I'm saying. When I say it's really the norm because I am one of the biggest perfectionist and I and I'm trying to unworked that, like, all the time, you know, I get defensive in ways that I recognize I'm like, oh, where's this coming from? And when I was introduced to these characteristics, I was like, wow, this is some really deep self reflection, because this has been what we've been taught all along. And so right that undoing it is the real work.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 39:48

Back to the history of the movement and gender based violence and I joined the movement in 1995. And at that time, people were divided into into good camps and bad camps. They were good or bad. And people who use harm, who were mostly men were throwaways, we just threw them away. We locked them up, threw them away.

Jessica Barquist: 40:09

Karen, the men are talking about the the ramifications of that. And the feeling of being thrown away.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 40:17

It was my wife's parenting that actually gave me insights into this idea of time in, you know, when our kids were teenagers, when I met them, our older kids, and they were very perfect teenagers, and they had good days and bad days. And I'm one of those particular bad days, I was thinking, I don't want to spend the day with this kid. And that's rare about that. And I expressed that thought to my wife, and she's like, Oh, no, no, when they are like this, that's when we pull them in. Yeah, that's what's really important. And I can think of as why are we putting people in jail who goes arm, knowing that most of them came from violent homes, knowing that they don't have community, knowing that they understand the harm that they're causing? They really they know it, we don't have to tell them they know it. And I think that if we changed our, you know, our motto in our movement has long been, we have to hold these people accountable, which really what we've met as punish them. What if we changed our motto to we're never going to give up on people? We're not going to give up on you. We think you can do things differently. And we're here for that ride. We're going to be in like you said, Llu, we're going to be in that rumble with you. Yeah, and Lisa I know that's what you have spent so much of your career doing.

Lisa Ryan: 41:39

Yeah, I thanks for pulling that thread, because I was just gonna say, you know, a lot of my work has been with people who have been formerly incarcerated in or coming out of incarceration reentering society after, you know, many of them some really heinous crimes, we're talking murderers, and I have worked with individuals that I have seen, you know, have met in the jail, and then worked with them, you know, for years. And I've seen this unbelievable change that, like you wouldn't believe on paper, right? You just wouldn't believe it. And I think a lot of that change has to do with like, giving the individuals the space to find their selves and their own values, and work on those and allow for mistakes, because they're not going to get it right after being incarcerated for 30 years, and come out and get it all right, they need to make those mistakes. And that's what, what, what, what turns it around. And that's what not giving up looks like.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 42:48

Before we step away from, from racism, I just want to share this one little nugget, which was gifted to me and a bunch of other people by this woman named Sharon Bridgeforth. She's an artist who lives out in the Bay Area. And her suggestion, you know, we think about what are the what are the things? What are the actual tools, the practical tools that we can use, she suggested that one of the things about white supremacy is that it actually creates this separation between heart self values, intellect, you know, that's just all gets broken up, and you end up kind of floating along without any kind of grounding, but so this is a grounding exercise. So noticing what hap, what's happening in my body? You know, like, where's it tight? Where am I, when you're in that moment? Ask the question, what is that about? You know, what is that about? And, and how does this tell me how to how I'm going to live my life going forward. So I can think about times when I've been in, you know, in a group of people, often with white people and bipoc people and the bipoc folks are saying stuff that is like, hard for me to hear, expressing anger, saying things like, I can never trust a white person and intellectually I, you know, completely understand that. But there's this thing going on in my body, because what I'm what I want to say is, but not but I'm good. You know, I'm a good white person. Right? So then just taking a moment to recognize that that's happening. And then at the like, the big question, what is that about? What are you afraid of? What's going on here? And what do you need to know? And for me, that interrupts performative stuff to that, that's a really good interrupter for me, you know, entering the stage as the white savior.

Jessica Barquist: 44:37

That's such a great exercise. Karen, thank you for sharing that and something we've actually talked a lot on this podcast about and like holding survivor stories and another different iterations is that like, self awareness and like checking in with yourself before you speak.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 44:54

I guess for me, I've moved away from this idea of like, hammering on issues, you know, and Jess you know, I've talked about this for a really long time, around communicating issues around gender based violence in terms of these are the horrors. Yeah. Changing that story, changing that narrative. So that we're talking about. This is our community. And there's things happening in our community that are beautiful and wonderful. People who survive, people who have hope, the stories of hope and resiliency, including people who have caused harm, you know, the people you were talking about Lisa? And I think that we are figuring out how to have an integrated conversation across issues. I mean, we can know, it's happening right now in Vermont this week, we can, we can see the videos of the ways that climate change is impacting Vermonters in differential ways, right? The people without homes that have have no insurance or have, you know, we're hearing stories of people who, whose rental property was destroyed, and now they're now they're houseless. And people are experiencing gender based violence. It's, that's all part of it. And so we think about, like, what are the systems at play, that are impacting all of us, impacting people, the systems don't care about, like they're not siloing, the issues, the systems are about power control, access to resources, privilege, on on a on steroids, you know, on steroids. So it's, it's, we have an opportunity there, I think, to integrate our feet, our thinking and to be in community with people across issues. This bifurcation, or this division, is one of the ways that white supremacy, culture capitalism, systems of power, keep us from organizing together.

Jessica Barquist: 47:03

This work in the uplift campaign is really striving for that too, right? Like, we're not talking about domestic and sexual violence. We're talking about a violence free, Vermont, and how do we all get there, so that all have the opportunity to thrive? Right. And so violence doesn't just mean you're hitting your partner in an intimate partner relationship, right? Violence means the microaggressions and sexual harassment and racial all the way up to what we consider violence, which is that that more extreme

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 47:37

lack of physical access for people who use a wheelchair? Yeah, right. That's, that's right, right. Yes. Yeah.

Lisa Ryan: 47:45

It's all interconnected. It makes me think about just like the social justice principles of, you know, access, equity, diversity, participation, human rights, that's all interconnected.

Jessica Barquist: 47:59

And you don't have to be an expert. You just have to show up in your humanity.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 48:04

That's right.

Jessica Barquist: 48:05

I have two questions that I want to end with that I've been asking all of our guests, and I just love their answers so much. So I'm gonna I'm gonna send this first one to you first, Lisa, what is your vision for a violence free future? And what is one step you can ask people to take to get there?

Lisa Ryan: 48:24

Well, I've said this over and over, throughout this podcast, but my vision is is is for violence for a future and world is really dismantling all oppressive systems. what people can do or what we can do to invite people onto this journey, is really ask them to be willing to step in, to be vulnerable, to be okay with making mistakes. And I think to get back on what you just said, justice is to to keep at the forefront. You know, what they're for, and not against.

Jessica Barquist: 49:10

Lisa I just had totally like an image of you like getting up in the morning with your to do list, like dismantle oppression. Yeah. Though, if anybody put that on their to do list and check it off, it's gonna be you.

Lisa Ryan: 49:23

Thanks, Jess.

Jessica Barquist: 49:25

Oh, how about you, Karen, what is your vision for violence free future?

Unknown: 49:30

My favorite song is Imagine by John Lennon. And I, every time I hear it, which is every time I mow my grass, because I listen to this playlist. I actually cry. It's so poignant to me. And it's that's a long term vision. You know, that vision that he wrote about in that song where there's no countries and there's no religions, and there's, it's the dismantling those systems. And that's generational work. We're long ways from that, although, I think it is how happening in places across the globe. And people are finding great joy in being in relationship with each other and, and the world and the natural world in in ways that are really different than mainstream society. So my vision for a violence free world has to do with asking myself the questions about how I dismantle those systems within myself. So my vision of a world without violence starts with my vision of myself without violence.

Jessica Barquist: 50:27

I have one more question. And thank you for spending this time with this. Lisa, what is causing a revolution in your heart right now? And what I mean by that is like something that is like really energizing you, getting you going, you feel really hopeful about?

Lisa Ryan: 50:45

To start, you know, this, this conversation, all the things that we're talking about, it's really hard sensitive stuff, but it's also exciting in a way, like we're talking about this vision that we want, like, it's exciting, to kind of look out and see that vision, you know, we talked about it earlier, and just being in our joy, and being able to sustain that really, it was a little nervous about coming into this. And you know, saying the right things or doing the right things, and I told myself before I just needed to be myself. And so I think part of the journey, and my advice to everyone is just to be yourself and and that's when you're most comfortable.

Jessica Barquist: 51:35

How about you Karen what's causing a revolution in your heart?

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 51:38

I agree with you, Lisa, this this conversation is revolutionary. Llu, the stuff you describe happening in communities across Vermont today with people in their, in their their wellies in people's basements mucking out toxic mud. Every time we do something like this conversation, like help a neighbor like listen, that make strategic choices. These are all micro revolutions that add up to revolutionary change. You know, despite the backlash, despite the way that this the power holders are fighting their fight, they're to every with every tool, they have everything. And despite all that the change is happening. The revolution is seated and growing. And more and more people are joining it every single day. So I'm this conversation is, is renewing my belief that the revolution is happening.

Jessica Barquist: 52:44

Can't stop won't stop.

Karen Tronsgard Scott: 52:46

Alright, friends, you thank you so much.

Lisa Ryan: 52:48

Thanks so much. Good to see you.

Jessica Barquist: 52:50

Bye all. And a big thank you, to you, our listeners for being with us today. We all have a role to play in creating a violence free VT.We all have a role to play in creating a violence free VT. And there are simple things we can all do each and every day that make a big impact on changing our culture, and making it a place where all are able to thrive. You can find more information and notes from today's show on our website at the tea network.org/uplift conversations. On our website. There's also a forum where you can share your ideas and thoughts with us about this episode or what you want to hear about next. We would love to hear from you.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak: 53:46

And if you enjoyed this conversation or learned something today, please give us five star ratings and share this with your friends and family members. Be sure to subscribe for more episodes and together we can uplift Vermont and create a violence free world for all people can thrive.