Uplift Conversations

Uplift Conversations Episode 2: Supporting Survivors (Part 1)

Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence Season 1 Episode 2

All of us know and love survivors. Many of us want to be able to support the survivors we love but may not know how to or what to say.  This week we are joined by Henekis, an Advocate from Umbrella, and Anne Smith , the Vermont Network's Director of Training and Leadership Development as they share their wealth of knowledge on how we can better support those we love when they experience harm.

Episode Resources and Links:

Umbrella NEK

Survivors Uplift Vermont 

http://vtnetwork.org/uplift-conversations

Jessica Barquist:

Welcome to the Uplift Conversations podcast where we discuss the social and community contexts that contribute to a culture where violence can thrive, and what we can do as individuals and members of communities to change that culture of violence, and create a world in which all people can live free. My name is Jessica, I use she her pronouns and I do policy and organizing work at the Vermont Network. I'm super excited to be hosting this conversation alongside one of my most favorite people ever.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

Thanks, Jess. I'm Lou, everybody. I use they/them pronouns. I'm a media maker here in Vermont, and a community activist. And I'm so honored to be brought into these conversations alongside some really fantastic humans doing really pivotal work here in the state.

Anne Smith:

I am Anne Smith, I'm the Director of Training and Leadership Development at the Vermont Network. And I am so excited for this conversation today. Thanks for having me.

Henekis Stoddard:

Hi, I'm Henekis Stoddard, and I'm the Director of Social Change at Umbrella in the Northeast Kingdom here in Vermont and I'm very excited also to have this conversation.

Jessica Barquist:

I'm going to kick us right off. There are a lot of people out there that I think want to be allies to survivors, and know that there are survivors in their lives, but don't know how to start, don't know what to say, don't know how to engage in that conversation. So where do we start? How can we signal that we are safe, supportive allies who want to be there for you and are ready to learn?

Anne Smith:

Well, I'll just I'll just go for it Henekis and just jump in and interrupt whenever the moment strikes you. My first reaction when I hear that is, well, it starts by being trustworthy, trustworthy, and are able to hold other people's stories hold things that are really about the most intimate, difficult parts of their lives. So I'd say the first thing is take stock. Are you showing up in your relationships with your loved ones in a trustworthy way? And are you showing up in community with people that you care about, in a way that they can count on you? If there's people in your community that you care about youth, LGBT folks like, Are you showing up in that community, just as a person in community? In joyful spaces in hard spaces? First and foremost, kind of being an open receiving person, when somebody says a hard thing, that you're kind of interested, engaged, showing up with those, like, open questions and just being open to receiving the story?

Henekis Stoddard:

I would say the exact same thing I was thinking about that is that it's less about how do I say to you in this moment, that is crucial that I'm you know, safe and trustworthy, but more? How am I showing up? What is the language I'm using? You know, there's opportunity to be talking about relationships and connection and harm all the time. And so how are we like, what is the language we're using? When we're talking about those things, just in community with people? How are we showing our compassion, and our sort of acceptance of where somebody is at? We have a lot of sort of, quote, unquote, victim blaming, stances that we can fall into or accidentally keep regurgitating. Right. And so I think it's also a matter of kind of checking those for ourselves as well, like, what kind of assessments am I making? What kind of judgments am I making about choices people make or things that are happening in the world? And

Jessica Barquist:

Can you say more about that? I think maybe folks don't even know those assumptions, right? They're so implicit sometimes that we don't even realize we're making them they happen so fast.

Henekis Stoddard:

So critiques that we might have about people who are like, if somebody is at fault for experiencing harm, right, so what is it that they did? Why didn't they do this, things like that, we have these really unfortunate seeds that get planted. And when we discover them, we don't have to then like water and feed them. Like we can say, you know, because we're like, oh, yuck. But I still need to tend to this, we can say like, wow, that was the seed that got planted in order for me to sort of like, perpetuate harm. And I want to be somebody who's safe and supportive. And it's not my fault that the seeds sort of landed here inside me, but it is my responsibility maybe to like dig it up a bit, right? Maybe dig it up, evaluate that and kind of show up how I want to.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

You know, in this concept of ally ship, and you were just you're talking about you know, showing up one of the simple things you can do is show up I think something that's very interesting about ally ship is that oftentimes people show up and then they make it about them still right or they they really struggle with the feelings that are happening. And again, it's it's intense, right? And so it's hard to just be. How does somebody do it? Like how do you stay in your box because I'm thinking about myself like if my kid one day comes to me with this kind of an experience or anyone you know, in my world there's a degree of which I'm going to, like, have a hard time staying in my box, the more intimate that relationship, I'm gonna have a really hard time sitting in that box, right? Like, you know, I'm Sicilian, I might want to be like, raging, you know, like on that person's behalf. But, you know, that piece of like, what is my role as an ally? What is my role as that person's person? And yeah, I'm just wondering, you can kind of give some tips about about that, like ready to,

Henekis Stoddard:

I'm ready to pounce on this one a little bit, but not in its entirety, I think what becomes really important is that we center not taking power away. And like having that be able to guide us. An element of interpersonal harm is that there is power taken away potentially, or a power over that has happened. And so I want as an ally, as a support person, I want to serve as a contradiction, sort of when in doubt, how am I operating in a way that is sort of opposite to that power over and taking power away, and if I make it about me, I'm taking some of that space, or that powerful moment for them, I'm taking that away. And so kind of like having that as a base can then be like a compass, in showing up. Oftentimes, what keeps survivors from telling their stories is precisely that fear that other people are going to make decisions for them that are going to jeopardize them or make them feel uncomfortable or exposed in ways they weren't prepared for don't want to that they will no longer have power over their own story. And what happens from this point on, you know, in working with a lot of younger folks, they don't want to necessarily tell people who are their guardians, because of that power over, or that piece that's like, my dad's gonna kill them, right? Like somebody is gonna then respond in a way or try to take care of this in a way that makes me afraid for them, that I now have to be afraid that my you know, this just an example, but that my people who might want to protect me are going to do something that I don't want to have done just because I shared my story. Just as a start, like, that's sort of my go to about like, how am I showing up? Where I'm not taking power away and I can sort of center, the survivor. Center the other person.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

Yeah, can I just also say, like that instinct to, like, protect, we live in such a violent, you know, minded culture that it's like, totally fine for somebody to blurt out, I"'m gonna go get them, I'm gonna go, you know, like, I'm going to take care of this" A is how is that helpful to the person who's right here, and you're totally right, you know, it puts that person then on the defensive of Wait a minute. Now, I regret telling you this, or I didn't ask you to fix this. Yeah, there is so much work that is needing to be done for that person who's on the receiving end to be genuinely just, just just be right there.

Anne Smith:

I think there's a piece there for me too, just acknowledging that, that, we're gonna have reactions as people, if it's somebody we care about, we can't necessarily control the emotional response that we have, it's gonna be often hot, and maybe even violence, what we want to do to somebody who's harmed somebody we care about, that's all okay. And it's all expected and normal, it's the way you go about it, that matters. Back to what Henekis was saying about, you know, centering the decision making of the survivor, it's in their experience. So, so I just want to say that, like, we're gonna have those responses. And we can also control our reactions in the way that we handle that with other people. And we're imperfect, humans are imperfect. I have to say, I've screwed up with survivors a myriad of times, if you take ownership for the mistake and try to course correct often folks understand the authenticity of the offer, and and desire to support them and will be often very receptive to that course correction. So there's also just like, chill out, like, take a breath, take a beat, this person got to where they are on their own will and ability to take care of themselves, like, the desire I think often comes because we want to fix it, we want to save the person. That's totally makes sense, but also isn't very helpful. So we just have to, to check ourselves and do all those things we know how to do to regulate ourselves and bring us back to our bodies. And just chill the bleep out for a minute and make it about the person that you're there to support and not about your own reactions. And find a place for that, You know, our membership in the Vermont Network is very much receptive to those calls from friends and families who are wanting to be like, I want to go after this person or I, I want to intervene in the school or I want to do all these things. That's the place for that conversation as the support person you know, somebody that you trust, not necessarily the survivor.

Jessica Barquist:

Yeah, I think that's such a great point about the emotional regulation. And it's not like, there's something there around like your feelings and receiving that story are totally valid. And there's a level of discernment there on like, how you process those feelings. So what I'm hearing from you both is that like, in that moment with the survivor, that is not the place to process those feelings. But there are, and you should reach out and find those other places to navigate those feelings. And I think especially true when you are in a closer relationship, right? Like, yeah, I think it's much easier if you're a little removed from the person. But as you were mentioning, that like caregiver dynamic, or the more intimate that relationship, probably the more feelings that brings up for you. And the more need for you to be really aware of that in the moment and also seek out those opportunities elsewhere.

Henekis Stoddard:

Yeah, can I love all this, and can i offer a little in the moment, like pivot to, that I found particularly helpful is like, I think, too, when we hear a survivor story, and we shift to thinking about the person who has harmed them, we have shifted. We've shifted a little bit of our focus away from the person right in front of us, who is telling us their experience of harm. And we have whole systems that do that. I mean, what happens when somebody, you know, may report to the police that pivot happens now it is about a process and about a breaking of the law, or what have you, and it stops being about the survivor. And so in the moment, totally normal and natural to be like, who did what to you like, that breaks my heart. And now I'm thinking about the person who's caused harm, and how can they do that, and what we can we do, and that's all important stuff for a time in a place. But in that moment, I find, it's just really helpful to like, do that pivot back to there's like, there's this amazing person in front of me, who has experienced something very difficult and I'm so honored that they're telling me about it. And I get to see like in their story, like, where they've harnessed their strength, and their quick thinking, and brilliance and all of that stuff. And I think for those of us, it's like, just like, the closer we are to people, maybe the quicker we might be like I need to protect you. But it also might be, you know, super easy to do that pivot and to say, this beautiful human is in front of me telling me an experience, and I get to sit with somebody who's been harmed, and I get to be their person. And that's at least something that I've found helpful, because there is a lot that can come up, for sure. And so how do we stay present with somebody?

Jessica Barquist:

It feels like such a simple shift. But like, so powerful.

Anne Smith:

I was thinking about too, that sometimes survivors do choose not to tell their most intimate relationships about these experiences, because of all the concerns we've named. And so I think sometimes it can be a helpful lens to think about, like, if my loved one, you know, were someone who had to share a story of harm, because with someone else, how would I want them to be received? So you know, thinking about, you know, when you imagine yourself in these scenarios, if it was somebody that wasn't your child, or your best friend, but someone else, but it was the person, the survivor, was your child or your best friend? How would you want them to be received by someone else? How would you want them to show up, as the person supporting the survivor, for someone that was very dear to you, really imagining those scenarios, I think can also be helpful, I think, you know, embodiment really does help if we can kind of imagine ourselves and put ourselves in those circumstances before they happen. It helps us get a little bit more prepared for when it does happen in real life. And as they all know, survivors, it will happen in real life. If you are open and receptive to stories, they will come to you. I've certainly experienced that in my own life. It's sort of how I ended up in this work was story after story arriving at my door and feeling like I wanted to do something about it.

Jessica Barquist:

Yeah, I feel like that brings us back to your first point Anne around like assessing kind of how you show up, not just in these critical moments where you're being asked to hold somebody's story, but how you show up generally kind of dictates that. And when we were talking about like the emotional response, which is totally normal to hearing these stories. I was also thinking about the flip side and how especially as women, we are often conditioned by society to think about how what we say and how we show up will impact other people's emotions. And that that hesitancy probably has a lot to do with hesitancy of sharing this type of story or experience with your most intimate partners, right? Like I don't Want to tell my parents because they're going to feel X? I think about that with my own kids, right? Like, if they're afraid to tell me something, you know, some of the language I'll use around like, I can manage my own feelings and like, you just need to show up as you or like, I don't know, talk to us about how, how you develop that so that when the crisis happens, or the rubber meets the road, you're in a space and in a relationship dynamic that you can weather that? humm.

Anne Smith:

yeah, I wonder Henekis f you have something burning you want to say about that, but there, but I have an immediate thought that I really want to make sure I remember to say, you also have to be okay, if they don't choose, you know, that often, you know, if it's a familial, you know, it's happening in your family, and you find out about it, and you aren't the person that the person is talking to, or choosing to share with your most with the intimate details, you have to be okay with that choice to, you know, again, it's not about you, if your child decides not to tell you as a parent, even if you've made yourself variable available to them emotionally, they're just maybe it may be just a choice they're making about who they want to share intimate details of their life with. That's their choice. That's part of empowering survivors to make the decisions that are best for them. You know, I think that happens sometimes to where it's like, let me insert myself into your experience and I think we have to be careful not to do that as well. Yeah, like, it's

Jessica Barquist:

That feels like going on another thread of like, a good ally, when you're not the one getting the story.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

And I imagine that you especially like, if you hear about it inevitably secondhand, right? Like, stop dropping, don't roll right? Like, don't I mean, just like, to your point, if you if this is somebody close to you, and you're like, oh my gosh, I've got the feelings, they didn't come to me first or at all, just a good reminder, I've given them all the codes or all the, you know, signals that like I am an approachable person, and I can manage myself and all the things. And it's also a guy, I got to figure out a way to make it okay, that they're going to come to me if and when they're ready.

Jessica Barquist:

It seems like all this same dynamics and strategies apply, whether you're holding the story or not, right? Like, it seems like you're still having to make it about them and not take their power away and not make it about yourself all the same things, whether or not you are that person.

Anne Smith:

Right and being open and trustworthy. You know, I mean, we haven't even talked about the basics yet, which is just like, if somebody is sharing their story with you, you know, just believing and receiving. The, you know, my mantra. You know, really believe what they're telling you, affirm your care for them and receive it. You know, really be present in the ways that we are present for people when we care about them nd we're deeply listening to them, we show with our attention, with our full focus. You know, we show that we have it's okay to show that we have emotional response, as long as it's not about them tending to us. You know, that we care about the impacts?

Henekis Stoddard:

Yeah, absolutely. Like that. And to the piece, kind of tying back to Jessica's question before to have like, I don't have to deny that I'm being impacted, but I can honor that. I'm okay to hold some of this weight. And that, that by sharing with me, you don't have to carry me as well. Right in this like actually, having it be that somebody sort of sharing our story with us is that we're, we're carrying a piece of that, and maybe a piece of it is that we're just carrying our own, they care about us, that's beautiful, they care about us, they love us, honoring that naming that, like I so appreciate that you, you know, also here for me, and in this like, I'm I am okay, and I'm going to be here for you. And I always say to like, in talking with people who are support people, it can sound really simple to say, I believe you. And it can be so profound. A part of a survivor story is once somebody really believed them and centered them or a part of their story as they got, they get questioned in ways that felt really harmful and didn't feel like belief. Really meaning that being you know, genuinely being present with somebody. I mean, it can sound so simple, and be so important.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

You're sitting with someone. And there's that moment you say you look them in the eye and you say I believe you what what has happened next, I imagine that there's a pretty powerful release that must happen that there is a there is a transformative moment.

Henekis Stoddard:

Yeah, that's fabulous. I kind of got goosebumps just thinking about that.

Jessica Barquist:

Can I just name before you jump in? Yeah, that when you asked that question, Lou, I saw Henekis Anne and myself, like all of our faces went there and I could see like how powerful just thinking about those experiences was on our faces. Yeah.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

Tell the listeners what happens when you do that.

Henekis Stoddard:

What has happened many times, I mean, not immediately, not every time but many times, the fear and the concern of "Am I being judged right now? Is it safe to say this?" And am I being you know, is the person questioning, like, almost like some of that weight can be like lifted a little bit, and it's a door opener. And what really gave me goosebumps is thinking about, people don't often just tell you their whole story in every detail, right? I don't do that I'm gonna, you know, we test the waters about our most vulnerable stuff. We give a little. We, you know, we feel out how are you taking this? What have you, when I have been really clear about so believing somebody and had and sort of watch doors open or supported doors open? I've had people tell me things that they then tell me, they've never told anybody else. Things that they it's like, almost makes me want to cry, but just things that they have just carried. Not sure if it was ever going to be safe to talk to somebody, not sure if that that level of vulnerability was going to be possible for them. And so it's like, how many times did that come up, and they you know, because sharing our story is so powerful. So that's at least what what I've definitely experienced is people feel more comfortable to share more, and maybe to share those things that like they've really been waiting a long time to have another person present with them about what what they've been through.

Anne Smith:

It is true, I'm I am transported back to my own experiences of having folks disclose their experiences and share their stories with me. And it's just reminding me we mentioned this earlier, just what an honor, it really is and a privilege to be fully present for someone in that way. If we embraced that. And it was it didn't feel like oh my gosh, what am I going to do? What am I going to say? How am I going to react, but really like, fully showed up for somebody in that like, oh my gosh, like what an honor it is to be told this story with you. If it changes, it changes everything about how we show up. And that I think is when we hear the people's deepest experiences. And I'm you know, I'm thinking about that statistic where folks share their story three times to somebody close to them and the way that they're received in sharing that story often dictates whether they seek help or further or report or decide to do something about what happened to them. The way we respond really is profoundly impactful. And it impacts us too, you know, that the it's a gift really that to be able to share that, to be somebody's support person.

Henekis Stoddard:

Absolutely, I agree. And one of the things that it makes me think of too, is kind of coming back to some of the like victim blaming stuff, right. And so like, we we do have a lot of norms that say if you've been harmed, you did something to deserve that in some way. That's super harmful. And we all can really ingest that. And I think about sexual harm, in particular in the ways in which people who are harmed in that way, are also sort of fed belief systems around it being their fault, kind of none of us are immune to that we have to do the work to eradicate that. And so I also find things like like, I believe you, but also like, this was not your fault, can really help to chip away at some of that internalized shame, some of that internalized doubt, like did I do? Should I have done something different? Is this my fault, that internal dialogue that that can happen for some folks? And so when they're telling their story to somebody else, there can be that underlying fear of,"Is this person going to validate that? Yes, this is my fault, or are they going to help me get out from under this, this shame that should not be mine?" Right? And so that's sort of the piece that it sounds so simple to be like, "I believe you. I, you know, this wasn't your fault" can sort of support that like, or just even like naming like, "I'm so sorry, you've had to feel that that anything you ever did deserved any of this."

Jessica Barquist:

I'm making an assumption here, but I feel like maybe a lot of those misperceptions of victim blaming come from trying to like find a sense of agency in the world, right. So like, if I can identify the things, the conditions that created that harm, I can then avoid them in my own life. And so I think that a lot of times it's people, and myself included, who really want to show up in that way and be really good allies are also trying to navigate and have a lot of questions around, like, how do I show up in the world to keep myself safe? Like, how does this happen so I can avoid it. That a lot of times, questions that are really awful for survivors to hear, come from really well meaning place of trying to navigate that and figure out a really unsure world. Mm hmm.

Henekis Stoddard:

Yeah, I think there's a lot in that I don't think that, you know, some of our victim blaming norms happen by accident and I do think that sometimes they come from a place of, I'm somebody who understands I have added vulnerabilities in the world, I know that some of those vulnerabilities can be targeted, and so I want to keep myself safe. If I can look and see something has happened to you and I can pinpoint things that you have done, that I don't do, then I can feel safer in a world that can be very unsafe. And I think that that's, you know, really normal psychologically for us to do that. But I also think that we can engage in kind of a deeper, you know, a thought process around that and address and be like, is that what I'm doing? Like? Am I looking at this other person and be like, they got harmed because they, you know, did this thing that I don't ever do. But

Jessica Barquist:

That feels like one of those warning bells that you were talking about earlier with the seeds that like, cue you to stop and and refocus, right?

Henekis Stoddard:

Yeah, totally. Like, oh, I'd never be with somebody like that. Or I'd never go to a place like that, or I'd never do this. Oh, I don't share that identity. You know what, whatever it is. But yeah, so we can notice that seed and go Oh, yeah, let's get this out of here. But I think it is also really valid to understand that like, as long as we live in a world where there are high rates of intimate partner violence and sexual harm, we all are impacted. And we all navigate trying to sort of survive in a certain way. And engaging in some of that, like protective, quote, unquote, protective victim blaming, thinking is part of that, you know, navigating and surviving. Just the harm being a possibility out there, taints the waters, so to speak, right? And so I think that we also can have some grace with ourselves when we're like, oh, like, it is pretty terrifying to think that I might not have as much control as I think I do about if something bad might happen to me.

Jessica Barquist:

I love that. And it seems like really clear from our conversation that in the moment, when you're talking and in relationship with a survivor, that is not the time to kind of navigate that unlearning. And Henekis, I'm actually going to stop this right there because we're just about out of time and there's so much more here that we want to dig into. So I hope everyone will stay tuned and join us again for part two of this episode next week. And a big thanks to you, our listeners for being with us today. We all have a role to play in creating a violence free VT. And there are simple things we can all do each and every day that make a big impact on changing our culture, and making it a place where all are able to thrive. You can find more information and notes from today's show on our website at vtnetwork.org/uplift-conversations. On our website, there's also a form where you can share your ideas and thoughts with us about this episode or what you want to hear about next. We would love to hear from you.

Llu Mulvaney-Stanak:

And if you enjoyed this conversation or learn something today, please give us five star ratings and share this with your friends and family members. Be sure to subscribe for more episodes and together we can Uplift Vermont and create a violence free world where all people can thrive.

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