GRIT & GRACE : The Multidimensionality of the Immigrant Experience with Special Guest Sheeba Varghese

Today's episode of Masterful Listening features an enlightening conversation with the remarkable coach and author, Sheeba Varghese. Together, we delve into the intricate layers of the immigrant experience, exploring the profound impact of grit, grace, and the power of masterful listening in shaping our journeys. Additionally, we share valuable coaching tips and tricks that draw from our immigrant experiences, offering insights that transcend backgrounds and empower listeners on their own paths to growth and self-discovery.

Sheeba shares her personal insights and reflections on navigating cultural identities, resilience, and the transformative nature of storytelling, drawing from her experiences as an immigrant and author of the heartwarming children's book, "Mommy, Am I Indian Today." Join us as we uncover the significance of cultural heritage, the challenges faced by immigrant families, and the resilience that propels us towards a brighter future. Through candid conversations and shared experiences, we celebrate the beauty of diversity, the strength of unity, and the unwavering spirit of perseverance that defines the immigrant narrative.

Join us as we celebrate the rich tapestry of human experiences and the enduring legacy of grit, grace, and the transformative power of storytelling.

Learn more about Sheeba and her work at www.definingmoments365.com.

Masterful Listening is sponsored by Rad Hats For Rad Humans. 30% of every purchase goes towards mental health initiatives. If you write a review of the show, you get 20% off a Rad Hat of your own.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

All right, well, welcome back, masterful listeners. This is episode two of season four, and I'm so excited because I have a very special guest that I'm going to introduce right now, and I'm going to read a short bio about my guest. I found with other episodes of guests I get so excited about them. We start chatting before I introduce them. So, without further ado, in the vibrant Bay Area of San Francisco, Sheba Varguise, did I get that right? You did. Okay. I just confirmed before we started. So Sheba Varguise resides with her husband Santosh, where they indulge in fine dining, embark on exciting adventures around the world, and cheer passionately for their beloved team, the Warriors. As the CEO and founder of Defining Moments 365 LLC, she leads a coaching consultancy dedicated to leadership training and coaching. A defining moment in her life sparked a profound desire to create children's books, fueled by her love for simplicity and her experiences raising her own children, now adults. So through her life, whether professionally or personally, she seeks to live with grace within the spheres she's called to in this world. So welcome, Shiva, and thank you so much for joining.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Thank you so much for having me, Svetlana. It's a joy and pleasure and honor to be here with you today.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, you know, this is really special for me because when I started the show, I said that I wanted to have like the right guests who to me were people that I really was inspired by and who I felt really encompassed what I see as masterful listening. Right. And you, first of all, are a coach, and you are, in my experience, I can only speak for myself, one of the best coaches I have met, and someone I really admire because we've worked together for a couple of years now. So I also want to give some context to the listener, because some of the listeners might know who you are, some of them might not. This show is obviously going to be wildly successful and popular. So for the millions of people out there, or whoever's out there who uh appreciates a little context. So Sheba and I have both worked at, I guess, as consultants for a great company named Hone. Shout out to Hone if anyone's listening. And we're both facilitators, right? So we lead workshops. And uh I personally love this work. I won't speak for you, I might ask at some point. But I always wanted another coach and facilitator on the show because it's a very unique skill set that I think requires listening. And obviously, I'm very passionate about this idea of masterful listening. So before we actually dive into our specific topic and conversation today, which is going to be about the multi-dimensionality of the immigrant experience, I want to sort of co-create the lesson for the day with you because this is school, right? This is the world's first super rad listening school. And I love saying that because Rad, who if you're watching the video, is behind me, is my teacher, my doggie, who passed away recently, and he keeps teaching me lessons. I keep honestly integrating so much of what Rad taught me. And it had so much to do with being present and being curious and listening. So for today, Sheba, before we dive in, I want to co-create with you how we want to have an experience, kind of design it. So kind of set an intention for what you want this next, I don't know, we'll say 90 minutes to be like. So what, yeah, what what are your thoughts on that? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Well, first of all, that's a huge ask. But in co-creating anything, I think what what I know to be true is this that um as a guest on your show, Svetlana, as you're speaking about masterful listening, it's in in whatever we are discussing together today that there are opportunities for our listeners to hear how masterful listening occurs and um is impacted by uh regardless of what we bring up, right? It's in all areas of and in within all topics. So however we want this show or your show to go today, um we sh I believe it's it's an opportunity, like I said, to just lift up where the listening occurs in the various topics.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yeah, what I heard there was just a mindfulness around like it's meta, like we're talking about things, but we're actually practicing this and we're modeling this. And that's one of the reasons I really love the work that we do. Like I want to hear from you in just a bit what it is that you love about the work that you do, because I'm sure your experience as a coach, just like as an immigrant, is different than mine, and yet I'm sure there's similarities, right? So, again, I want to invite the listener also, right? You are having an experience right now as well. Sheba and I are gonna have a conversation. You, as the listener, are also having a moment. It's like you're I I always look at masterful listening and I always redefine it every episode because I feel like uh listening, uh curiosity, compassion, and gratitude, I think are the four things you can't overdose on. So I feel like we can't repeat what listening means over and over enough, right? Like I really feel like we need to keep reminding ourselves of this because we we all forget, right? We all get distracted. So if listener, you get distracted during this episode, just bring yourself back. That's a way to practice listening. Uh, if at any point I want to invite you to have this lens of really genuine curiosity for today, right? Because you, let's say someone out there listening might be an immigrant and you might really resonate with what you hear. That's cool. Notice that. Maybe you're not an immigrant, and some of this will be super new and maybe surprising or confusing or however you feel, notice that. I always encourage the listener, specifically, I think around this topic, that's a very personal one. Like this one's a deep one for me, and I think for you to notice are you genuinely curious? Because if you are, great. If you're not, permission to not listen. Another thing I always like to invite people to remember is you're not forced to have to listen to anything, typically. I think being mindful and choosing who we listen to, how we listen to is another thing I always encourage people to do. So if in the middle of this you're like, this is not so interesting to me, I'm distracted. I really recommend you go and do something you really love and are interested in. And I really say that with love. I really like to design this as it's a space of it's a school. You get to practice listening. I guarantee you'll probably laugh and find this interesting because we're gonna share some stories. I'm gonna ask Sheba questions, we're both gonna just explore uh again what the immigrant experience means, and I think a lot more. So I also want to design with you that I want this to be fun. I want to bring in fun. I also want it to be um I I want to be surprised in a nice way. I like the idea of I don't have a specific agenda, I have some questions, but I'm kind of open to it taking whatever pivot, wherever it goes, is is great for me. So how does that land with you?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Oh, that's that sounds beautiful. That sounds like co-creating and partnership within this space. So I love it. And and I know that you know we we've been saying immigrant story. Um, part of what spurred the song, uh, Svetlana, is that I know I've written a children's book called Mommy Am I Indian Today. And I was sharing a little bit about my excitement about this book, being that it has or entails an immigrant story. And so your invitation to come on to this podcast in the first place to share a little bit about that and connect it to masterful listening is one of the reasons I'm here today. And so I'm thanking you also for this opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I'm so glad, and that's such a great segue into what I was just about to ask you, which is yeah, I'd love to just, I guess, as an open-ended question and also listener, I will sprinkle in little coaching terms here and there, because not only I want this to be an interesting conversation, I also, and Sheba, I invite you to do the same thing. If at any point you feel the desire to sprinkle in any coaching wisdom that you have, I think that might benefit the listener as well. So there's like a lot going on here, and uh the invitation is that we all learn and enjoy this time together. So would you tell us, the listener, the audience, like about your book or how you came to write the book, whatever you want to share about that? Because you're right, that is what spurred this awesome moment.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Yeah, thank you. You know, one of the things that I'm not sure if I mentioned to you, Svatlana, is that my parents passed away when they were very young. My mom was 53, my dad was 59. So uh what and with their passing, they they came to America when they were quite young as well. And you know, during that time in the early or early 70s, they really didn't have as much community around them because they were charting the course for many to come after them. And so, with that said, when my mom passed away, the one of the things that I treasure the most was to find journals, if there was anything that she wrote down, because it felt very important to me to read what might be on her heart, her thoughts, her fears, etc. And I did find one, but it had such, there was only so little that was written in there, but it meant the world to me. And one of the practices that I've kept is writing journals or filling up some of these journals, and it has a lot of different things in it. Um, so with that said, uh thinking about the idea that whenever my time is, that there are things that are sitting here that my sons could read when it's time. But part of this is um a couple of years, several years ago, I would say, pre-pandemic, I felt this gentle voice that said, you know, go back and read this this encouragement to go back and read your journals. And so I thought, yeah, I haven't read them in a long time. And when you go back and read some of these things that you've written down over the years, you see all the all the blessings that you've had, the prayers that have been answered, the challenges that you've gone through, the funny stories that you might have documented or shared, right? And this was one of them. My son said I was dressing him up for uh for a wedding. And as I was placing the, you know, I was helping him with, you know, getting dressed, he's asking me this question, Mommy, am I Indian today? And I'm thinking, what a funny question. This is hilarious. Because in his mind, because he was born in Jersey, and being born there, this is what he's thinking. Like, I only wear this when I go to parties, when I go to weddings, you know, maybe church on Sunday, maybe if it's a special event, something like that. And so I thought, wow. And I wrote the whole thing in my journal. It was in 2009, and I'm looking at this and I'm reading this journal, totally forgetting that it was sitting there in maybe 2020, 2019. I want to say 2020, because that was almost the beginning of the pandemic. And I noticed it sitting there, and I was like, oh my goodness, this whole story is sitting here, and the only thing that's missing are the illustrations, to which I had a box, like a rectangle sitting above the lines. It was like a storyboard sitting right there. So, but but in that it's you know, journaling is something that we encourage coaches, clients to do a practice, you know. And it doesn't, you don't have to be legalistic about it, but it's just a thing, it's just one of those practices that are valuable for you to put down what might be running around in your mind all the time, you know, or thoughts, concerns, all that in a place. Um, and then also this part of listening to those gentle nudges that you might hear in a day to say, go here or do this, or have you called, or you know, reach out. So that's that's the coaching part of it. But yes, that's how this whole uh story, this this children's book came to life. And it started in 2020, 2009, and it finally I published it in 2024.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Yeah. Well, first of all, congratulations. I love that. Thank you. You actually did it, right? Like consider how often we have ideas and do we actually bring them to life, right? That A is amazing, and I always celebrate that because I know for me, I've had a lot of ideas, and I haven't always brought all of them to life. This is actually for me too, the podcast. I've had an idea probably for 14 years, and finally it was just time. And I don't know if you feel this way about your book, but somehow I was like, you know what? It was just like trusting the timing, right? So for some reason, you found that journal, you saw that, and that is hilarious. That and it's also profound. So I want to ask more about that. Um, the other thing I want to reflect that I heard was gentle nudges. I just love that you said that because that is also the way I think about masterful listening. It's like if you're really paying attention, the world is always talking to us and we're always having thoughts, ideas. So, like, how do you know which ones to follow? Are you even receiving those gentle nudges? Because guess what? I feel like if you don't listen to the gentle ones, they get much harsher. Um, anyway, it's just a little side note to reflect. It's like the whisper turns into a scream, and maybe that's another conversation we'll have another time. But you heard the nudge and you took a step. And so through this process, I mean, what's happening? Like, tell me more about the is it about the impact of the book, or what did you learn through the book, or what's your intention with this book, maybe? I those are a few questions, and please answer whichever one feels most you're most drawn to.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah, so so what I will say is this when you do when there is a children's book, for me, what was most important was finding the right illustrator, and that took time. And in fact, the illustrator, Tori Thillahoon, will tell you that I that I practically fired her. And that's what she would say, because I, you know, I we had started this project in 2020 and it just didn't work out because of timelines and things like that, you know. But what she would say was, and I had to give constructive feedback around um accountability and and timelines and and and all of these things. And what she would say as an artist is that you know, we don't really like timelines. You know, we need that freedom, right? That's often a belief that's held, not necessarily the truth. Oh, oh, I get that one. Yeah, but it but you and I both know in coaching, in coaching sessions, part of the coach's role or part of our part in that partnership is to highlight and name perhaps a belief or assumption or a fear that we're holding on to real strongly, and yet an offering up the suggestion or the perspective that they that may not be the truth. And so this is we just had a virtual book launch, and so I'm just simply sharing what she shared is that it wasn't the truth, and in fact, that she could work within a deadline. And in fact, based on that constructive feedback that I had to give, which was very painful for me and very painful for her to receive, it changed her whole business model, and she started to shift the way she did business. And four years later, I came back to her because I was looking for others maybe, but it just didn't work out. I found the same pattern. And I came back to her and I said, Tori, do you think it's time? Do you think? Because I felt in my heart that she was the right illustrator, and she was. And she said yes. January of this year, she said yes, and there were timelines, there were deadlines, there were, you know, chats, it was communication, all of that. And the final product was amazing, you know. And for her to hold the final product was amazing to her. So a couple of things there, also, right? Beliefs that we hold on to, and how to find that collaborative person to work with. Um, but the impact more than anything has been the feedback that I've been receiving because it was a simple question, and often the most powerful questions in coaching is a simple question. So it's so that is important. And this question spurs more questions, it spurs conversations around the table where families may have mixed races, they may have different ethnicities, cultures going on. You don't have to be Indian to read this book, it is just a catalyst to really spur on other questions out there. So the feedback has been we're finally seeing something of representation that we've never seen before. And yeah, I've asked that question. And they're finally seeing that and seeing people that look like them, you know, on the covers and and on the pages. And so that has been such beautiful um feedback for me to receive.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Wow. This is I'm having such a profound experience of masterful listening because there were so many times when you were speaking that I wanted to interrupt and be like, oh, this and this and this, right? Because I got excited and I took some notes. Uh, which again, again, listener, consider, right? We teach listening and what it means to listen deeply. And I love so much of what you said. I want to reflect it back because I want to go deeper into some of it. One, just the power of changing our stories, right? I can't work within time frames. I had that story growing up. I'm an artist in my core too. I said, I don't like structure, I don't do it. And now, of course, I'm on, I feel so bad for my early managers. Like now I so get really, I didn't know what I didn't know. And of course, it's like once you have a structure, then you can get creative with it. So I love it. You had a deadline, and the person that you knew was the right person at the right time did it. So, yes, I love that story. Uh simple questions. Yes, simple questions spur conversations, open-ended questions. I've been obsessively talking about questions. I really feel like the questions we ask determine our life. And I think this is very tied to what we're gonna talk about in terms of the immigrant experience and just everything, right? Like my favorite prompt is tell me more. Just tell me more about something. How surprising usually is what I learn rather than what I've assumed seeing someone, right? Like we see people who look different than us, who sound different than us, we think we know. Remember the real world? What was that? You think you know, but you have no idea. I always think about that. That was a funny thing, but it's so real. So I just love so much of what you said. And um with that, I want to know about so for you, you mentioned like representation, seeing people who look like you growing up. I want to hear what was your experience? Can you just tell us a little about your family story? Like, kind of maybe bottom line it in a way that you want. And that's just a coaching term that means give us the real important essence so that the listener has an idea of who you are, where your family's from, etc.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah. So my family came here. Um, my mom was a nurse, and back in the 70s, there was a shortage of nurses. And so we had an influx of nurses that came from India, and so she was one of them, and then she brought over my families, uh, uh, our families. In fact, I was born and she left me behind to come here and made that sacrifice. It was pretty much the following year of after I was born, 1972, and she was already here in 1973. So imagine the sacrifices that they made to bring us to this country. Um, for me, my my experience. Is that I looked different. And many of my classmates or in the classrooms, you know, when they would see me, they thought I was American Indian. And they would start chanting, you know, and making noises and not realizing that no, I'm an Indian from the country of India, not American Indian. So in order for that to, in order to minimize, you know, the making fun of and the teasing and all of that. And plus Sheba. Everyone now will say, Oh, I love your name. Well, I did not like my name growing up because I would I would hear Ali Sheba the whore. So I don't mean to offend you, but I have a dog named Sheba and all of these things. And you just wanted a normal name, which normal in your mind was, I don't know, Karen or Jennifer or David or Elizabeth. Sally, Mary, right? Yeah, not but Lana. Sheba. Not But Lana, not Sheba. But now they're like, oh my goodness, it's so unique. Yeah, not then, not growing up. And the other thing was we were encouraged or discouraged from learning our own or from speaking our own language at home. Because the ideas then were that you need to learn English. Now it's like, please speak as many languages as you can. But that's what we knew. That's all we knew. And that's what our parents did, you know. And so things like staying after school, my dad would be like, What do you mean staying after school? What are you gonna do? I'm the oldest, I'm a girl. For them, it's all foreign, you know. We're the first generation to go to university. So all of it was different and foreign to them as far as coming here to America and what it looks like here. So that is part of the story. So when your son says, Am I Indian today? It's it's one of those, wow, yeah, okay. We need to up level here and say, you know, what this really looks like for you because you've been you're born here, you know, and so your experiences are definitely different from mine, you know, and that's okay, that's good. But let's add to it.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Right. And that's the other thing. When you and I were chatting in our last conversation, which by the way, I so enjoyed, I feel like I was literally laughing and crying throughout it because there were so many similarities, even though I'm an immigrant from Eastern Europe, from Moldova. So, in terms of our cultures, I'd say they're very different. Me and you look very different, we have different uh experiences, and yet they sounded so similar in a lot of ways. And one of the things was this idea of our your parents come over, right? They bring you here, they want a better life, they make a massive sacrifice, which again, uh hearing that your mom left you behind. I can't imagine how hard that is to leave your child, but they do it because they want you to have a better life. My parents also they came and they were like younger than me. My mom immigrated, left an abusive husband, had no money, had to. I'm like, how did you do that? And she's like, I had to do it, right? It was for you. And yet, then what happens? We get here, and then it's like, okay, well, you brought us here to be like American, but yet you are who are we? Because if we're too American, then that's not right. But if we're too who we were, that's not right. Like it's been very confusing for me, and it's caused a lot of friction actually growing up. That whole fight of uh what is right, what is wrong. It's just been confusing for me as well. So that's another thing that I wanted to bring up is like that whole experience as an immigrant, too.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yes, because we were we were joking around saying the fact that as soon as I would ask my dad permission to do something, before I could spit out the whole question, the answer was no. And you're thinking, okay, is the no because I'm a girl, I'm the firstborn, I'm Indian, uh, we're in America, uh, I'm a Christian. Like what why is there this no? You know, and so we think about it, then it becomes this question of this or that. And in coaching, this also happens too, because when clients come, they're often seeing this or that. And we encourage them to consider what it would look like if it's all of the above or if it's both. Because many times they don't see it that way, right? It's this or that. And so for my son, it's it's not that he's just yes, we're Indian every day, and you're also American, too. So it's both. It's all of the above.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, I love that so much because you know, the other thing that that makes me think about is like the the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like our families, like a lot of immigrant families, came here and they needed to survive. Like you said, your mom was a nurse. I don't know what you said. What did you say your dad did? Maybe you said it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

My dad was in the was in the military in India, and so when he came here, he had to figure out what to do. And at one point, you know, he was he was at one of those stalls that are in the subways where they would sell the magazines and the candies and things like that. And he always wanted to do business, and that didn't work out. And so then he finally started to work for Digital Equipment Corporation that it was called DEC back in the day. So that's where he, you know, he he um retired from there. But um, they did whatever they could to survive. That's it, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:42

That's yeah, that's the thing. Very common story. My parents were both educated, they had master's degrees. My dad ended up being a janitor, right? So, this is the other thing, is oftentimes these extremely educated, smart people immigrate. My family, they were refugees. They also had to give up everything. They literally, it was like the we're coming here, we're running away from persecution. And again, this isn't, we're not gonna get into like the politics of it, but the reality is a lot of people who immigrate here are are leaving really tough situations for a better life. And then they have to start over and do anything they can to survive, right? So that is what my parents had to do. Now, me, I've told my mom this so much, and we fought about this so much, because where she was like, I gotta feed you, make sure you're safe. I was like, but I want to be happy at work. And they were like, You're insane. What do you mean? So then I again am like, but you brought me here, and now I get to like, it's like I'm standing on your shoulders of I actually have the privilege of thinking, not only, you know, do I get to work, but I I get to enjoy my work. And it took them a while to understand that because that's just not, they didn't even think about that as something they could think about. And that's the other thing that is fascinating in that experience. And only now, honestly, as I've gotten a bit older, have I really appreciated that some of these things we might not fully understand, but there's definitely in my family been a deeper respect and understanding of it. It just took a while, and I want to call that out because the sacrifice was super real. And I do think it's a privilege to be able to think, wow, not only do I want to work and I want to actually enjoy my work, right? That's why coaching's so great. Like, do you love what you do?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yes, absolutely. And and I'm appreciating the fact that you're saying, you know, you're you're rising from their shoulders, you're not starting from where they started. But it is, it requires a different perspective and a mindset shift, both for them and you. So when I think about my two sons who are now 22 and 25, I they're not starting from where we started. They're definitely not. My son is about to go into this, you know, apartment, and I look at that apartment, I'm like, wow, it even has a washing machine and dryer in there. That was not my first experience when I had you. We had to, you know, take that out somewhere else. And these are the experiences, but it's not to hinder them from having that. It's to say, we're so grateful that there's this pathway that that's opened up that you'll go beyond and further than we ever have, which is great, which is great. That's what we want for you. No, it's not always the case. This is does not always happen like that. But um, we're grateful when it does.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Oh, yeah. And that's what's tricky, right? Like, my parents, I know, always wanted the best for me. They wanted the best for me, and yet there I was in college. I'm like, mom, I'm gonna go study abroad in Rome. And it's like, no, you're not, because there was also that worry and fear. So that's what was so tricky for me. I'm like, but you said you want the best for me, and now that I'm doing what I think is best for me, it's always no fear, worry. And I fought it, and now I definitely understand it, right? My parents actually had a lot more of a legitimate reason to be afraid. Like they actually really experienced a lot more, I'd say, trauma and fear than I did. Mine was different. Funny enough, I realized in a lot of therapy that most of my trauma was around the immigrant experience of just being a six-year-old kid in a new country. No one asked me to come. I didn't speak the language. I no one could maybe tell that I looked like I was from somewhere else, but I never felt like I belonged anywhere. I also got thrust from like an immigrant ghetto into a really rich school, and then I was even more lost. So that again was a different type of trauma. And I always say, let's not compare trauma, it's not the pain Olympics, but the point is the experience to me is multidimensional for that reason. It's so incredible and it's so challenging, and that's why I just I haven't really talked about it much. That's why I want to hear from you too. Like you wrote this book, and your intention is to uh say it in your words. Your intention with this book is it also about spreading awareness around the immigrant journey, or is it I want to hear more about that?

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, as this is a children's book, you know, looking at it, I would say it's probably great for preschool, kindergarten, first grade. And so what I am seeing and finding is that it starts a conversation, it opens up dialogue. Um, and it also, you know, because many in my son's generation, they were born here. When I look at many of our Indian families, they were born here. Um, so it it allows us to also share some of the experiences that their grandparents went through. So for my sons, there's a set of grandparents that they will never be able to speak to because they've already passed. There's one set still here. My husband's parents are still here. So it's it's uh for them to just have a glimpse of a journey, an experience that is quite foreign to them. They don't, they're they're not familiar with it, and that's okay. And it's also a book that allows children to have you know to see representation on the pages of a book for themselves, which is not as common uh for many of them. So I recently got a call from someone in Canada, and she said, you know, this book will allow so many of the immigrants that are coming that how their experiences are a lot like what you just said, Svatlana, for your parents, that they will see someone that looks like them on these pages, but then they also see, oh my God, the author, she's an Indian. There's there there is an opportunity for me that they may never have seen for themselves. So those are things I could never have imagined. For me, it was like I knew I had to write the book and I had to get it out there and find the right illustrator. That I knew, but the outcome I did not know what was going to happen. And isn't that also the same when it comes to coaching? We can look at and and focus in on what a person might want to talk about, uncover, unveil, discuss, but it's really their outcome. I'm not tied to their outcome. That's their outcome.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Right? Self-management. That was, I found one of the toughest things in coaching school for most people is the idea of it's not about you, right? Someone comes to you with a topic and they want to do something, and I'm thinking, I'll notice in my head, like, oh, I don't know. It's like, it's not about me, it's about you. And that's also masterful listening, right? How often are we listening to someone and then thinking, but what would I do? And let me tell them what I would do, right? And this is the right way to do it. And it's funny, I'm thinking of my parents too, and bless them. I love them. I love my parents, right? Shout out. But but it's like now, it's just now it just um I can appreciate where that comes from. And as a coach, you're right. We see the power of also, I love when someone starts out on a path and then I call it a rad detour, a really awesome detour. Often people do end up somewhere different. You discover something along the way, and I oh I often feel that. I'm like, you think you want this, and you might want and get that, but what else do you discover on the way? You know, the journey often uncovers new things. Like my journey now, when I look back, there was a time where I was like, why was I from Moldova? It was a dark time in my life where things were really hard, and I was really kind of pissed at life, thinking it's really hard, it felt unfair. And I'm like, why did this happen? Why was I born in the unhappiest country in the world? At the time, that's what the research said, and it didn't make sense. And now I am deeply grateful, honestly. I feel like the lessons that I got, like that washing machine you mentioned for the first time in this place that I live is so funny. I got my first washer and dryer, and it was a joke in my family because I always lived in like apartments and like in San Francisco, I had to carry my laundry up the hill. Yes, I was like, one day I just want a washer and dryer. And what was so funny was I'm like, mom, guess what? I got a washing machine and I'm gonna do my first load of laundry. And I swear to God, I put in the load of laundry and the machine broke the first day. And then she was like, What did you do? And I'm like, I didn't break it. It was so funny. I just remember laughing because um I didn't actually break it. It was just a really hilarious moment of like, I appreciated the simplicity of wow, I have a washer and dryer. And I know so many people take that for granted because if you've always grown up with a washer and dryer, why would you think that that was a special thing? Right?

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Uh we grew up actually really poor, but I didn't know we were poor. That's another thing. I'm actually, I want to hear from you. I am so grateful now. At the time it sucked, I was like, I want to go to anthropology when I was in high school and buy a $200 shirt, but I have to go to Ross, which by the way is my favorite store now. Shout out to Ross. And my mom was like, she was she would say something like, even if I had money, I would not do something stupid, like buy a $200 shirt, right? But they couldn't do that. But I always wanted it. I wanted to look like the other girls. No one looked like me either. I was like a I had red hair, I was also like a curvier woman. I remember looking at magazines. This is a whole other thing, but no one looked like me either. And that was also really, it messed me up for a bit. I think a lot of us just the representation now is a bit better, I think, than even like 30 years ago. But still, that idea of seeing other people who look like you and owning who you are versus wanting to be like others, I think back then was a bit more challenging. I think this new generation, they're like way more like, I'm a beam me.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

But oh yeah, because I that is because and I think I remember saying to you, like my son when he was in high school, he would take a Tupperware full of Indian food and eat it out there, and he had no problem. He owned it. You know, he would call himself, he would let he he enjoys rapping and and music and stuff, and so he would name himself Young Masala. Like these are things that we would shy away from growing up. We would not want to smell like Indian food. We would not want to, we did not want to take any Indian food into a school. No, we wanted to be like everyone else, and now you're seeing the upholding of uniqueness and the beautiful cultures that are brought. You know, even going to other people's houses, you're thinking, oh my gosh, I don't want to, my our house looks different. It should. Isn't that part of the tapestry of United's of the United States? It is the differences, but we're wanting to just say, uh, I just want to be like everybody else. And it's like, no, you're not. You are unique. You know, even and I'm I'm I bring this up again and again, the coaching, because a lot of the leaders that I coach, and especially when they're female leaders, they'll say, you know, um, I'm in a man's world. And I say, Yes. And I just, my encouragement is that you lead as uniquely as you're called to lead. So if they're surrounded by people who are moving fast and they're like, Well, I, you know, I have to think about a little bit more. I'm like, Amen to that. That's great. You bring a different facet that is needed at the table, but there's so much ingrained in us that we need to be like everybody.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, it it takes a while, I think, as just a human being, to embrace how beautiful and unique it is to just be you. And even this, I'm looking at the screen right now. I see us. We're both coaches, we're super different. I talk faster, you have a different pace. We just have a different style. That's great, right? If everyone was like me, oh my God. Like I'm glad, right? There, I just some people resonate more with one, some people resonate more with another, and that is so beautiful, right? That is nice, but we're not taught typically in our world to embrace ourselves. Most people have some story around I'm not enough or I'm too much, right? Or I gotta be more like this. We're comparing. So I think with the immigrant experience, too, it's also tied together, right? Like, what is that I guess balance of owning your tradition and appreciating it? Because only now am I seeing so much more beauty than I did when I was a teenager. I just like didn't get it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yeah, and I think that also comes with maturity too, right, Svetala. But I with that also may I say this comparison bit that was huge in the immigrant stories, too. We I I don't know about you, but growing up, there was a lot of comparisons all the time because families were coming over at different time periods, timestamps, right? And depending on when they came over to the United States, they would look at maybe your family and think, oh, well, you have all this, I want that. Not knowing that how long it took to get that, you know, or look at your cousin, he's doing this, or she's doing that. And so it's this this competition, it just the comparison bred competition.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And the impact of that, what did you see?

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yeah, the it's the impact was that you just start to resent. You might you it could get divisive when it doesn't need to be. And it and you start to understand why the comparison was there because you they just want you to become better. And yet it just didn't help. You know, you we we often saw this even within a family, if there were siblings, you know, you should be like so-and-so.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Oh my god. Yeah, I I can relate to that. It was I always joke with my mom because me and my sister, and shout out to my sister Stella, who I love deeply and who couldn't be more different than me. Like, if you see us, Stella looks more like you, actually. Stella has darker skin, dark hair. I have red hair. Like, we look nothing alike, and we are nothing alike. Stella is like, she doesn't ex, she doesn't emote. I am all emotion. Stella is like discipline, uh, structure. Uh, just if I want to have an emotional conversation, she is not the person to talk to. And for the longest time, I was like, rahrr. And now I'm like, oh my God, I love it. You are totally different. She's a mom. She had kids. She did the more traditional thing. Me, I'm almost 40. I didn't get married. I didn't have kids. So my whole life, my mom's like, When are you gonna get married and have kids? And to Stella, she's like, When are you gonna be more independent? I'm like, yo, you got two daughters who are actually the spectrum of the possibilities. Why do we have to be compared to each other? Right. And that, what I just wrote down that I love, because this is tied to coaching and to the immigrant experience, is the distinction between competing with versus being inspired by. Like, consider that. That's what shifted for me when I was feeling like I just want to be like them, I want to have a Mansion like those people. Like the first time I showed up at a house at someone in high school, I didn't know I was at a house. I thought it was like a synagogue or I thought it was a building. It was so big. I didn't, I've never seen anyone live in a place like that. So some part of me was like, wow, we have this tiny little townhouse. And yet my parents already bought a house in a different country. Like now I'm like, do you even realize how much of a badass you are? And my mom actually says yes. But it took her a while to also realize how much that took. At the time, though, I wanted a bigger house and I wanted to have more money. And I thought that was successful. Then at some point, I switched to like when I see someone who has more or who's doing something that I love, I'm like, oh, I'm inspired by that. I also want to do that. What can I learn from them to actually get that? And that's a really different way of doing it, right? That actually is very motivating, right? To see other immigrants and be like, look what they've done. What did they do? How do I be curious about that? Like, talk about a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

I love that perspective shift because then it's it's not you trying to do it like them or be like them. It's more of what are the inspirations that I can take from that story and apply it to how I'm called to be, which is going to look very different and unique. So it's it's it's a it's the ways that we have tried to bring up our two sons is to really instill the fact that you are so unique, you cannot be like the your brother, and we would never want that. But now, are there things that you can learn from one another? Absolutely, but both of you are so unique, so don't compare yourself to one another.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah, the compare and despair. I um I was in a leadership program, and there was one session where we had two co-leaders, and I loved one of them, and they were out sick, and I was kind of bummed at first. I'm like, damn. And we had a sub. And this sub, the whole weekend was like, it was all right. And then he said one thing that changed my whole life, and it was a little mantra. I'm a fan of mantras, I think you might know this. The listeners might know I'm tattooed in them because we always forget. And the mantra was, you are not better than you are better at. You are not better than you're better at. And for me, I don't know why. Oh my god, it changed my life. Because often, because I had a loud voice and I was confident, people often would tell me, and I thought this was so funny, especially women would say, Before I knew you, I kind of thought you were, I don't know. I kind of want to keep this episode child-friendly in case younger people, but they had this vision of me as being not who I was. And it's because I came off, I think like I think I'm better than people. And I actually, interestingly enough, I kind of wish I did, like, I didn't think so. I was always comparing myself. I always wanted to be better. And then I realized I actually was better at a lot of things, but it doesn't mean I'm better than someone. That helped me see that just because I'm a better speaker than you doesn't mean I'm better than you. That's just my genius, but what's yours? Everybody has something, right? That they're just great at. Like, would you tell me what do you think your geniuses are? Like, what are your superpowers that you could claim as you're better at, but not better than, if you resonate with what I'm saying, which I feel like you do.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

I do, I do, I do. I think one of my superpowers is um around teaching, training, making things that feel complicated, just simple, um, and combined in there is that the coaching um and getting to the heart, really hearing the heart of the matter and bringing that forth. I would probably put it all together like that. I don't know if it's a way of saying that. So you could probably provide the reflective listening on that one.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

I love it. That's brilliant. I mean, making the complicated simple, I think is one of the greatest pieces of wisdom. I often quote Albert Einstein. I'm like, I don't take credit for this, but simplicity is genius. Like things when they're simple, that's like all I want. My values have shifted a lot. Right now I'm in the value of spaciousness and slow. I like that. I always told you, I feel like you have such a graceful energy. The episode, part of the episode title here that I uh that came to me a while ago, and then I knew I'd use it at the right time. And when we were talking, I'm like, this is it, is the grit and the grace. There's something so beautiful, I think, about like your energy and your ability to do that is a superpower. I've experienced it as watching you facilitate and giving me feedback on facilitation. Like, I was like, I want to be more like that. I think my superpower is a little bit more on, I just have this energy that often people are like, wow, you just have this passion. And I'm like, yeah, that's great. Sometimes, and sometimes you gotta slow down. I just so appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

No, well, but but here's the thing, and it with any of the superpowers, when we over-index, we it can become uh our weaknesses as well. So it is an opportunity to say, okay, what when when is the time? What when what are the oppos, you know, are the situations that require that and when not? So it's it's finding that beautiful balance with any strengths that we have.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Mm-hmm. And it's like a full circle to what you're saying. It's all of it, right? I often say, I think true wisdom is not you're loud or you're quiet or you're fast or you're slow, is that you can discern when does it make sense to be loud and when does it make sense to be quiet? Don't say anything, lot of power in that. Or when does it make sense to like swim for your life, right? Or when does it make sense to surrender to a riptide? Which, like, if you get caught in one and you swim too hard, you will die. Like, that's when I learned that. There's just a time to go slow and a time to go fast. I think a lot of people are like, this is the way, or this is the way. It's like maybe the way is all the things at the right time, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

So you're I could see you're I could see you kind of processing that as you're sharing that. Do you remember the acronym as far as the talking? Do you remember? Have you ever used that in any coaching sessions? Wait. No, tell me more. Oh no, please wait. Wait, wait. Yeah, it's why am I talking? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

I just feel like people who know me for a long time will appreciate and laugh a little at that. Yeah, waiting to talk. Uh that was, I'm still learning. You know, it's great when you say things useful. And sometimes it's like, why am I? Why am I talking? I love that, yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Why am I talking? Hey, I do have a question for you though, Svetlana.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

You said something shifted when it came to, I'm just coming back to Moldova. When you said something shifted is the way you started viewing or your experience of the country. What changed for you to see it differently?

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Um, just like why I was proud and happy to be from there versus kind of not. Yes. Yeah, that's a really great question. And I'm even thinking that was it was such a cool and profound shift. I think that from my experience, I've gone through like the last decade, honestly, when I look back, uh, if I say this, if I had known what would be ahead of me to get to where I am now, which is a place I'm so grateful to be. Like, even though I I lost rat a few months ago, I've been grieving, I've been injured, I haven't been able to walk. So, in some ways, this has been a very painful time. But in other ways, I wake up every day and I see this view in Sausaledo, and this was my dream. 14 years ago, when I moved to the bay, I got on a ferry and I saw this place, and I was like, what is this place? I want to live there. I have no idea how that's ever gonna be possible. And somehow I ended up here. Had I known what I would have to go through, I would have said, uh-uh, I'm not doing that. Looking back, I would do it again. And so through that, I think I just learned that times of darkness and hardship always led me to some just it's like I I say diamonds in the crap. Like I kept discovering so much. And frankly, the fact that I come from the unhappiest country in the world, and yet I've actually embraced like I like the darkness. I stopped trying to be happy. I learned so much on that journey. I feel like my journey into trying to be happy, that American dream, that's it, is that it was always like you come here. My mom said she thought this country was literally paved in gold. That's what they were told. I don't know about your parents, but my mom used to say that, like back in the Soviet Union, everything they learned, like history was rewritten. So they came here thinking it was gonna be this land of opportunity, and it would be a lot easier than when she arrived in Brooklyn and literally she said when she dropped me off at school and she saw the bars on the windows, she was like terrified. She had a very hard awakening of what it was actually gonna take, right? And again, there was perseverance. I also grew up with a lot of struggle. I saw them struggle so much. I saw them be afraid all the time. So I think when I started to have my own struggles, right? When I fell into my dark times, it just felt unfair. Why am I from this really hard place? It would be so much easier if I had been born here or maybe in an easier situation. I don't think I appreciated the gift of struggle and how now my gratitude is really, it's like ingrained in me. The simple things, the basic things that I just don't take for granted. And I don't think I would have I don't think I would have gotten that gift if like I had everything handed to me and it was really easy. So I think it was that it's appreciating truly like I had to go through a lot of hardship. Like I've just never met an inspiring person that was like, my life was super easy and everything came to be and I was happy all the time. And by the way, cheers to that. If people out there are having that experience, really, I'm happy for you. I haven't come across that. I think the immigrant experience for me and others that I know, they've all been challenging in their own way. But if you're looking for the gift in it, like you'll always find it. And other women I've met from Eastern Europe, they happen to be such, they're so strong. They're really, there's something fascinating about them. And that's just in my own part of the world. But even you, I'm talking to you, and I'm like, oh my God, wow, we have so much more in common. It made me feel connected to something greater. Whereas my whole life I was like, I don't belong anywhere. So somehow that was also a part of it. That actually, like, this is so cool. I am really unique. Now I get to talk about happiness in a way where it's like I've lived it. I didn't read books about it. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 56:00

So I think that was a part of it too. You've experienced it, and each generation will have their own hardships to walk through. No one is uh reserved from that. It's an equal opportunity when it comes to hardships and challenges, but it just looks very different for each one. So my sons will not experience what my grandparents, what their grandparents went through. It's just going to look very different, nor should we expect that. But for them to at least hear some of what they had to go through, I believe was important. And that is that is why I think also the impact of this book is able to come forth from you know the question, but then parents or families can talk about their own stories that can look very different, depending on where they've come from, when they came here, you know, it can look very different. So it's important.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

I love it. You know, it's funny, I've always had this dream of writing a children's book for adults because I realized as a facilitator that just like the simplest way that you can speak something, like as if you're talking to a child, that actually like really resonates. And so I'm thinking your book, and again, I'm gonna read it tomorrow. I'll tell on myself it didn't arrive in time. I bet it's something that can also be really inspiring to the parents of children. Like the parents will most likely be reading the book to the child, maybe the kids will be reading it to themselves, but this just sounds like something that whether you are an immigrant child or you're not, or you are a parent or not, like anyone can have a deeper appreciation of these themes, which is kind of amazing.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

Sounds or even if you're a teacher in a in a school that is, you know, multilingual, or just it doesn't matter, you know. It but you have children from all different walks of life, I believe it would be a valuable story to them. But you're right, I remember hearing seeing a um, it wasn't a children's book, but it was more of a cartoon style, I would say. Um it was by Simon Sinek, you know, he's pretty large, you know, big out there in the leadership space, but it was this tiny little book, and I can't even remember the name. Uh, Together Is Better. That's the name of the book. I'm just looking at it. And it was such a cute little book with these pictures in it or these illustrations in it. And but it was done in such an innocent way with profound meaning. And I loved it. I loved it, you know, because you don't always see that, especially in the leadership space, you know, something like that. You know, you think about most of the books out there, you know, that have a lot of words, not too many pictures in it. But these had these illustrations in there and black and white, most of them, but it had such profound, a profound message within each page. And so I loved it. I absolutely loved it. But yes, I believe this is one that can be enjoyed by parents, by young people, you know, little children as well, alike.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

I mean, even I'm thinking about that, like how often. Yeah, I guess I haven't consciously thought about this for a while because nowadays I really do actually feel more. No, I can't even say that. I don't know if I don't feel American. I feel more like Californian because I've just lived in California. But even that was such a helpful thing. I don't need to define myself by where I live necessarily. Like I kind of say, I guess I'm a citizen of the world or I'm a renaissance woman. I've always just kind of had a hard time fitting into any boxes, and then I realized, well, maybe we're not meant to fit into any particular thing. And maybe somebody, it's like when people do, right? Like I've met people who like they grew up in someplace and they've lived there their whole life. And honestly, when I was younger, because I'd been moved around so much, not because I chose to, I was kind of like, wow, um, that must be weird. Like I didn't actually appreciate that. Some part of me, probably because I wished that I had more stability, was like, why don't those people get out more and experience the world? Now I'm like, that must be a really interesting experience too, to have that place of home and security and stability, right? And yet I'm sure there's a lot of people in those little towns who want to get out of there and travel the world and see the world. So again, it's like what I've done, I'm really also grateful for that, where I have traveled a ton because I was from somewhere else. I wanted to see more other places that were unique, right? I wanted to listen to other people speak different languages. I wanted that I moved to Italy. That brought me to California. So that's the other piece of what I want to ask you. And it looks like you froze. So before I keep talking, did I lose you? Yep. I lost Shiba. So let's see if Shiba comes back. All right, take three. We had a tech issue a few times. We're back. You know why? Because we got what's the word Shiba?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Grit.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Yes, grit. What's grit? What's we don't give up, right? We don't give up. Okay, so what were we saying? I wanna, and again, listener, I'm probably gonna cut the 10 minutes that we just spent trying to get our tech back because that would be a very that would be like a black belt level of listening exercise to force you to sit through that. But I want you to just consider what's it like when you're listening to something and oh, there's an interruption. Oh, your internet gets messed up. Oh, you're on Zoom, and things happen, right? This happens in life. And something I think Sheba and I have both learned from our journey is the importance of not giving up, right? Grit, perseverance, and passion. I think that's how we defined it in our class that we that hat Hone has about grit, and I really like that. Um and so we are still here. And can you bring me back? I know you were masterfully listening. What were we saying before we got cut off? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

Yeah, you were saying that you see yourself as Californian, and yet it's really about the location of where you live. You identify with that, but really it's not true. You're global.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Yeah, for sure. Like there's so many parts, right? I really think multi-dimensional is the best word that I've found. The other one that I love is like a kaleidoscope of humanity. I just love that idea of like we're all these different colors and shapes and sizes and ways of being. And if I think people could embrace that as a coach, A, B, it's like gets really exciting, right? When you're like, whoa, I'm like super weird in these ways, but like weird isn't bad. I've always kind of been weird and odd, but for a long time I was just like a little bit of what's wrong with me, why am I not normal? Now I'm like, it's a bit overrated. I don't know if I want to be normal. I don't even know what normal necessarily is. I want to be the best version of me that I like. I think that's it. I think that even to honor my parents and the sacrifice that they make, made, and that one that I only understood now. And you know, I don't have children, you are also a parent. So you are not just an immigrant, you are the parent as an immigrant of now kids who were born here, whereas I'm still like the kid of immigrants. I don't have my own kids. I feel like, in a way, mellow, my doggies are my kids. So it's a little different uh with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

But what but you're an auntie, Svetlana.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

I oh, I am an I am the best auntie. I feel like my role truly, and that's been another thing, you know. Like I come from Eastern Europe, so by 40, I should have had kids and a husband and a family. Because if not, I'm like, what is it, like a spinster? That's still culturally kind of what's the right thing to do. And now it's really cool. Both my mom and my sister are like, oh, yeah, you don't gotta do that if it's not right for you, right? So I again, for some people, gosh, I respect, do the thing. You wanna have a family, have kids. I actually love them. I just love to hang out with kids for a bit and then give them back. To me, that always works, right? I um that just hasn't been yet, yet my path, right? The timing of things to stop comparing our timing to other people is also another thing I talk a lot about. But for us to like we're gonna start kind of rapping. And as we wrap, what I want to know is what has been your biggest challenge as you reflect on this multidimensional immigrant experience? And what is the thing that you're most grateful for that you'd like to share with people, right? As we sort of honor the enormity of this experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

So the first one was the challenge, and then what was the second portion of it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

So just the thing you're most grateful for. Like, what do you think is the gift, right, that you've received that you'd like to share with others?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

Yeah. So the challenge would be again, it's um it's bringing together all those parts in such a way that you yourself are authentic in how you're bringing that forth. So that that's hard because you just said, you know, being I I should have done this, or I should have been this or that. So for us, it's education, right? I should have had maybe a higher level at this, or why haven't I done that, or all of those things, and to put it all into perspective because you know, each life is very unique and how. You're called to be is very unique. And so the challenge is to be careful of the kinds of expectations that you put for yourself and if it is the right one for yourself. And what I would what I want to honor is the fact that I have been given so many opportunities because of the sacrifices that my parents made. And so, with that, what I'm able to now bring is many of these different facets that they probably never were able to do because they were in a state of let me survive, let me make sure our kids have a better life. I'm not in that place anymore. I'm not in a place of survival. When you're not in that place or just really toiling to get the job done, right? Then we're we have available to us the opportunities of what might I be interested in? What might my passions be? What might I want to do? So you don't limit yourself by the title you might have. So it's not just a coach or a facilitator or a trainer or a teacher. I've had all of those aspects be a part of me. But that doesn't limit me from looking at, huh? Might want to do a children's book and put that out there. Or so it's an author, right? Or I might want to explore crafts and painting. It doesn't, it doesn't preclude me from any of those avenues, right? But for our parents' generation, many of them could not even think that far because they were trying to put everything in place for their children to have a better life. So I want to honor that. I want to honor the opportunities that I have because of the sacrifices that they've made.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Yeah, that to me, in one word, is just gratitude. Uh absolutely. But the other two things I wrote down were, and I think this is such great advice and good reminders is don't limit yourself, and it's never too late. Like it really is never too late. I've been saying that to my parents a long time too. It's a joke now. They're like, oh, we're too old to change. And I'm like, you know, the thing is actually that's not true. Like, I've been studying neuroscience for a decade. And what's amazing is our brains can always change, right? Now, yes, if you've had a story your whole life, it might might take some more work. But that's the other thing that I really just want to honor all the immigrants out there and the anyone actually out there who's had uh a life where they've sacrificed for their families. Honestly, whether you're an immigrant or not, I think that sense of um that's a very human experience, right? And I don't think you necessarily have to be an immigrant to sacrifice for your family, but because we're in the space where we're honoring our experience, I'm gonna say that. So for the immigrants out there, like my parents, who are a bit older and maybe are now more integrated into the society that you've lived in. And maybe you are in a place where you're like, maybe I can start thinking more about like enjoying my life and doing the things I love. Like my mom started painting in her 60s, and she's so happy. And she said, Well, you inspired me because you've been the artist your whole life. I'm like, I'm pretty sure you've been the artist your whole life, and you inspired me. You just didn't have the chance to actually do it until then. So, like, it isn't too late. Wherever you are, if you're alive, you can tell a new story, you can try a new thing, you can change your mind. Like, that's actually true, right? Like, and plus, if you're gonna tell a story, you might as well make it a good story, right? I say that all the time. I'm like, I mean, it's all story, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Well, and and and what I would add to that is keep asking the questions because a question can definitely inspire your next story.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

What are some of your favorite questions before we wrap up? Like, do you have favorite questions as a coach or just a human that you've just found are just so supportive and juicy and great?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

I I I actually don't have any that are favorites because what for me, it's the question is informed by what has just been said.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

Well, isn't that the uh epitome of masterful listening? I mean, really, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

Again, you are you because a lot of coaches are like, but I need to ask the right question. Well, how do we know what's the right question? Or the I need to ask a powerful question. How do we know it's powerful? The the question comes from what you've just heard, and it's powerful based on the one who's heard it and how how it impacts them.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Well, I mean, you're so right. This is why I'm always like, there's another mic drop moment from Sheba, because the truth is that is what I notice when I teach coaching courses. The hardest thing for people to get is like, but I want to ask the right question. I'm like, if you're thinking about asking the right question, you're not actually in the moment. And if you're really listening, you will always know the right question, right? So I love that you answer that. I do have questions I love, but most importantly, it is just what I love starting a question with what. That is my favorite thing. I love what, I love asking what because I love listening. Actually, I've actually learned to enjoy it. I think for the first time in the last year, I enjoy listening as much as I enjoy talking, which is like wow, because I've learned a way. That's a shift. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it really is. Because before I was trying to, because I thought I had to be a better listener because that was the right way to be. Just like I was almost like, you gotta be disciplined. I, you know, I was told these things, you gotta be organized, you gotta be disciplined, you gotta do these right things. And what did I want to do? I wanted to do the opposite because I don't like being told what to do, right? I didn't like it. And now I'm like, mmm, wow. Discipline might just be the ultimate form of self-love. Listening might actually be really enjoyable and helpful. Who would have thought? So, anyway, that openness and curiosity, I think we touched upon as well, is just so helpful uh for for any of us listening out there. So, as we start to wrap up, Sheba, my final question to you is what, if anything else do you want to share that maybe you haven't shared that would make you feel complete in this uh experience we're having?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:47

I think the final thing that I would share is especially because you've touched on the coaching aspect of things, is that when we evacuate the space of being present in a conversation, then our listening starts to diminish as well. So listening begins with us really being present and attuned to the conversation that's before us. That will help our listening, which then of course helps in asking the questions. It's all connected. And with that, Lana, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:23

Yes, and I have a follow-up. I'm gonna ask it. Can you give a tip? Give a tip, like, do you have a tip? So people out there might be like, yeah, but how do I stay present? Which is a legit question. We have a million distractions, and you know, this sounds obvious, like be more present. Do you have a tip or a suggestion for someone who's struggling out there with that presence who wants to be a better listener, but maybe uh, you know, is having a very human, normal challenge with it?

unknown 1:13:50

Tip.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:51

Yeah. I think the tip that I would uh offer is the fact to pay attention to what the distractors are, both internally and externally. It's both. And then it's so if it is, oh, all these things are on right now, then maybe it's to put it on do not disturb. And it is practical, but it is the truth. Okay. Or what am I thinking about right now that is distracting me from totally being present? The schedule that I have, who do I need to drop off? Um, what do I need to cook for dinner? Whatever that might be, what is that? And maybe put it, put a sheet of paper and just write it down so you know it's there and you'll remember it later. Okay. And then uh last but not least, it's the mindset about what you feel you have about the person that's before you. Do you have a mindset that really encompasses the fact that this person is resourceful and capable? I'm not here to fix them. I'm here to simply partner alongside with them and to truly be present to hear and and and allow them to guide the conversation. But if I have a mindset that I gotta fix this, then our listening turns into okay, let me get them, give them the ways to fix this problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:18

And it shifts from part solicited advice. Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:22

And and if you're a consultant, that's that's good. There's nothing wrong with that. There are times for that. If you're being a mentor, there's nothing wrong with that. If I'm in the doctor's office, I want to hear that. So there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

Yes. Again, time, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Time, where, you know, it's not this or that, it's more of when. What's the space that we're utilizing?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:48

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:49

For this type of listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

It's really true. I often that is uh that is a rule for me now. When my friends call me, I say, Do you need the coach or the friend? I will listen differently. They know that in coach mode, I will interrupt them. I will not let them vent for too long. They know that. I've designed it at this point. I've realized that is a different type of listening. And I also realized I get paid a lot to give advice. So unless I'm asked for it, I don't give advice. Really. It's a really interesting thing when you just realize the distinction, right? As coaches, we're not trying to fix. We are really guiding people towards their own wisdom. Because nobody knows you better than you know you, right? Nobody knows me probably better than I know me. So as we wrap, that's the other thing I want to leave as a homework. So I love your tip for the listener of noticing the inner distraction and the outer one. The outer one, listener, your homework is if you notice you're really distracted because of anything in your environment that you could just shut off, why don't you try to do that? See if that helps. For the inner one, I love that tip. Look at me. I have a notebook and a pen, literally with me in every purse, on every desk, everywhere, right? Just putting something down on paper out of your mind literally helps you quiet your mind. So please, that's your other homework assignment. If you're someone who's been very distracted recently, try that. Get a little notebook and a pen and just have it with you. And if you notice your mind coming up with an excuse right now of, oh, I don't know, I don't have a notebook, well, just notice that. Yes, you do. Go get it, do it. Fierce, there's some fierce fierceness for you. Um, and then the other thing I wanted to leave as a homework is the next time you see someone in the world who looks different than you, who maybe has an accent different than you. I found this often in Ubers. I've had some of the most amazing Uber rides because I'm always just asking questions. Where are you from? Can you tell me about your story, your family? I'm just gonna invite you to be a bit more curious because you know, we all make assumptions about people. You brought that up as well, right? We think we know, we don't know. And I just want to invite you to consider what would happen in your life if you were a bit more curious, just about the people around you, whatever they look like, wherever they come from. You might just discover something pretty magical. And if you masterfully listen, I mean, who knows what magic might come from it. So that's it. That's my homework. Thank you so much, Sheba. I really enjoy this. I really genuinely enjoy talking to you anytime I talk to you. So I hope we get to talk soon and many more times, but I appreciate the time here today.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:32

Thank you so much. Thank you to all the listeners who listened in. And and uh thank you also, Svetlana, for just having me on this episode. I really, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Yes, and also for anyone out there who wants a copy of Sheba's amazing book, Am I Indian Today? Right? Mommy, am I Indian Today? Yes, see, I got the mommy part at the end. Uh, I will link it. I will link Shiba's website, and you can feel free to reach out and connect and and support this amazing work. I really uh hope this moved you and that you got something out of this experience of listening. And if you did, write in and tell me, share the episode. That's a loving thing to do. Send this to someone maybe who you know is an immigrant who you want to thank, uh, whether it's a parent, a friend, a colleague who might benefit from it. That would be really, really rad. All right. Okay, thank you. See you next time.