The Lazy Girl Library
The Lazy Girl Library is a charming book podcast hosted by two best friends. Expect laughter, witty banter, and a generous sprinkle of fun as we dive into the stories that have captured our hearts and minds. So grab your favorite blanket, a cup of tea or coffee, and curl up with us as we embark on a captivating literary adventure.
The Lazy Girl Library
Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin - Book Talk
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What happens when a creative partnership is tested by personal loss and professional challenges? Join Mikayla and Darbi as they explore this question through Gabrielle Zevin’s novel, "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow." They embark on an engaging conversation about the highs and lows in the lives of Sam and Sadie, protagonists whose journey through friendship and collaboration in the gaming world offers a touching narrative on resilience and healing. Whether you're a gamer or a book lover, join us for a thought-provoking dialogue that celebrates the intersection of friendship, creativity, and the digital age.
SPOILER WARNING!
Start: 7:36
End: 48:52
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Welcome to the Lazy Girl Library , the podcast , where reading is a pleasure and captivating adventures happen from the comfort of your couch . I'm your host , darby , and I'm Mikayla , and if you've ever spent more time rearranging your bookshelf than your priorities , then you , my friend , are in the right place . Episode 14 it's here .
Speaker 2Wow , I feel like we've kind of flown through this year . It doesn't feel like we've done 14 episodes already .
Speaker 1That's kind of crazy . I know we're so good at this .
Speaker 2Well , welcome back . Today is a book talk episode . Yeah , so we're going to be talking about the book Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin , but before we do , we're going to talk about our five-star , one-star moments of the week .
Speaker 1I love this .
Speaker 2So , darby , do you want to start us off ?
Speaker 1Um , okay , I should have thought about this beforehand . Okay , my one star is probably that I slept very poorly last night .
Speaker 1Not good , not good . My five star would be oh , I feel like I had something and I lost it . I think my five star would just be like the time that we're in , like it's crazy , but it's so fun and exciting . And we just went to this lantern festival last night with our like girl group and it's just so fun , like being with each other and talking . Yeah , I guess that's my five star . You also put up your Christmas tree too .
Speaker 1Yes , oh , my gosh , okay , just kidding , get out of here . Girls Five star is definitely putting up my Christmas tree for the first time with my husband . It's our first married Christmas and this is our first big tree in our first house , so so sweet . It was really cute , love that .
Speaker 2Thanks for the reminder . You're welcome . I was blanking what about you ?
Speaker 1what's your five star and one star ?
Speaker 2my five star was probably the lantern festival that we did with her . So unoriginal . I'm just kidding , I don't know , it was just fun . It's always fun to get together . The weather's colder now , which is nice , and it was just really cool , like seeing it was a much bigger festival than I was expecting it to be it really was like tangled level for people who are , who don't really know what we're saying .
Speaker 1It's like the little paper lanterns and you like place them in the water and they float then you had like a chance to like write on them whatever you wanted .
Speaker 2You could decorate like however you wanted , and so people would put things that they're thankful for or like you know some memorial ones yeah , letters to like loved ones . They've lost things like that . Just fun doodles , yeah , um , but it was really cool getting to see like all of them and they had like food trucks out there , and so it's nice to just get together , um , and spend some quality time with the girls , so it's something different that it's not like you do all the time .
Speaker 2Yeah , so that was cool . That was probably my five star , my one star moment . Um , I have packages that I was trying to send . They've been on my to-do list for forever . I have been , uh , procrastinating sending them off , putting them together , sending them off . I finally , like have them all taped up , ready to go . Um , josh was kind enough to take them to the post office for me and they wouldn't accept them because they were in old amazon boxes that had an empty bar or had like an extra barcode on it ridiculous . I was so frustrated because I've sent them . I've sent things like packages through the post office before in other amazon boxes , so I know you can like I've done it before a thousand other times . Why this was a problem this one time Strange , I don't know . But that was really frustrating because I thought I could check that off my to-do list and it is now still on my to-do list . So , ups , I'm coming to you next . Yeah , we are .
Speaker 1Maybe next time you can like duct tape over the barcode .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think I colored over them this time around . I normally do and I colored over like the sticker ones , but there are some that are actually like printed on the boxes that I just didn't even think about because I've never had to think about them before , but I guess it was a problem this time . So they're all colored in . I'm going to UPS to try to mark that off my list .
Speaker 1No , no , we're going to send Josh again to UPS . You're going to relax and read . You're right , you're right .
Speaker 2So yeah , that was my one star , it was just annoying .
Speaker 1Well , I love our five stars .
Speaker 2Yes and I hate our one stars . But getting back into our book . So , like I said , our book club book this month was Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin . Really excited to talk about this one with you .
Speaker 1Yeah , this is going to be fun . So the book description of this book was In this exhilarating novel , two friends , often in love but never lovers , come together as creative partners in the world of video game design . Come together as creative partners in the world of video game design , where success brings them fame , joy , tragedy , duplicity and , ultimately , a kind of immortality . On a bitter cold day in the December of his junior year at Harvard , sam Master exits a subway car and sees , amid the hordes of people waiting on the platform , sadie Green . He calls her name . For a moment she pretends she hasn't heard him , but then she turns and a game begins , a legendary collaboration that will launch them to stardom .
Speaker 1These friends , intimate since childhood , borrow money , beg favors and before even graduating college , they have created their first blockbuster , ichigo . Overnight , the world is theirs , not even 25 years old . Sam and Sadie are brilliant , successful and rich , but these qualities won't protect them from their own creative ambitions or the betrayals of their hearts . Spanning 30 years , from Cambridge Massachusetts to Venice Beach , california , and lands in between and far beyond , gabrielle Zevin's Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow is a dazzling and intricately imagined novel that examines the multifarious nature of identity , disability , failure , the redemptive possibilities in play and , above all , our need to connect , to be loved and to love . Yes , it is a love story , but it is not one you have read before .
Speaker 2You read that beautifully .
Speaker 1I was feeling myself reading that I was like I should be a book reader .
Speaker 2Yes , you should ? Yeah , absolutely , that was like the enunciation . Guys , come on Professional level over here .
Speaker 1Thank you , thank you um , but so we're gonna be talking about our thoughts on this book . Answering wait , did you already say this ? Oh , okay , good , we're gonna be answering some book club best questions about the book and giving our final ratings . So if you haven't read the book , get ready for a big old read and recap . Yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , so just to preface , the reading recap is just a high-level summary , so it's not going to cover everything in the book , but just enough to give those of you who don't really want to read the book but still want to listen to the episode enough context for what we're talking about , but we do highly encourage reading the book . Also , with this book , I do want to put out that there are some trigger warnings when we're doing this recap of talks of like depression and mass violence . So you know , just know yourself and know that there might be some themes that are hard to talk about .
Spoiler Warning!
Speaker 1Warning book spoilers ahead . Please head to the description and show notes to find where to skip to .
Speaker 2You have been warned so , to start us off , in the 1980s a young sam mazer and sadie green needed a pediatric hospital . Sadie's older sister , alice , was being treated for childhood leukemia , while sam was undergoing multiple surgeries on his foot , which was crushed in a car crash that killed his mother . So having some selectively , having become selectively mute since the crash , sam spends all this time playing nintendo and organ trail and other sorts of video games in the game room at the hospital nurses encourage sadie to go play with him .
Speaker 1Having someone to share games with causes Sam to begin speaking again and the pair become best friends . They find out that spending time with Sam or not they . Sadie finds out that spending time with Sam can count as community service , which is required for her bat mitzvah . And Sadie begins tallying her hours at the hospital and though she really values her time with Sam more than fulfilling the requirement for her , it's kind of like a game .
Speaker 2So after her recovery , her sister , alice , was jealous of Sadie and tells Sam when she sees him at the hospital about the tally sheet , which deeply offends him . And so Sam and Sadie stop speaking and don't see one another again for like six years . But then the pair is finally reunited by chance at the train station in New England , where they're both 19 . Sam is studying math at Harvard , sadie is an engineer at MIT . Sam is still suffering with issues with his foot and lives off campus with his roommate Marks , who is an amateur Shakespearean acting student and has come to see Sam as the brother he always wanted as a child .
Speaker 1Sadie impulsively asks Sam to play a test video game that she programmed for a software design class and he agrees . Sam and Marks play the game and are super impressed with the design . Meanwhile , sadie's professor Dove , a successful game programmer in his own right , becomes enamored with Sadie due to the game . The two actually begin an affair and Dove begins mentoring Sadie on how to become a better programmer . Their relationship ultimately crumbles when the married Dove decides to return to his wife . Sadie falls into a deep depression and stops eating and bathing .
Speaker 2Sam then begins visiting Sadie and eventually convinces her to program a game together with him . So Sadie then moves in with Sam and Marks as they convert Marks' apartment into a game studio called Unfair Games , with Marks as their official office manager and producer . So Sam and Sadie conceptualize the idea of their first game , ichigo . It's an adventure game about a child lost at sea who must find his way back home .
Speaker 1With struggling to develop the graphics for the engine . Sam encourages Sadie to ask Dove for help and the two of them , sadie and dove , begin their relationship again or resume their relationship . But with dove's help sadie and sam are able to complete the game . Unfair games is offered then the choices between a super lucrative distribution deal that will take away some creative control of ichigo or a more modest offer that gives them more freedom over their creativeness . Sam and Marks kind of pressure Sadie into accepting the former so that Sam can afford the expensive amputation of his foot and prosthetic after his latest surgery fails .
Speaker 2Ichigo then becomes a pop culture phenomenon and Sam and Sadie become celebrities , though Sadie kind of bristles at game journalist's sexist assumptions that Sam is the one that contributed more to the game and the company than she did , even though she did most of the programming . Further deteriorates over the question of how much Sam also knew about her relationship with Dov and his encouragement to talk to him about helping with Ichigo's graphics . So Sadie then dumps Dov again and moves to Los Angeles with Sam and Marks to establish their unfair games company as a corporate entity .
Speaker 1Marks and Sadie begin dating a little bit after moving to Los Angeles together , and this development disturbs Sam , who fears that they're going to abandon him if they become a committed couple . And also Marks pressures Sam into working on Sadie's dream project , an elaborate role-playing game called Both Sides that takes place between alternate realities . The game is a commercial and critical failure , but the three become motivated to spin off the game's idyllic American suburb of Mapletown into a virtual world called Maple World , which proves to be the company's greatest success .
Speaker 2Sam's jealousy of Sadie and Mark's relationship and Sadie's discomfort discomfort with sam gaining credit for their work further drives a wedge between them sadie then asks marks to convince sam that unfair's next project should be a game called master of the revels , which is a shakespearean themed open world simulator game that sadie really wants to make . Sam initially balks at the idea , and so Sadie develops the game on her own . But upon playing its demo , sam really compliments her work . It proves to be another success , and Sam and Sadie go on tour to promote it for the Christmas 2005 season . In their absence , an attacker comes to Unfair Games headquarters looking for Sam , angry that he legalized gay marriage in the Maple World . But in Sam's absence , an extremist then murders Marx before shooting himself .
Speaker 1Sadie , who is pregnant with her and Marx's child , becomes a recluse and leaves the running of Unfair to Sam . Having already planned development for an expansion pack for master of the rebels , sadie produces it from home , programming in a likeness of marx , who recites soliloquies from mcbeth , his favorite play in honor of him . After giving birth , sadie suffers from postpartum depression but finds solace in an Oregon Trail-themed game where she befriends a variety of characters in the guide of a humble pioneer and single mother .
Speaker 1Playing the game in seclusion over the course of three years , sadie finally comes to terms with Marx's death and her role as a mother .
Speaker 2Context clues also finally lead Sadie to realize that several of her in-game friends , including her in-game wife , are actually sam , playing under alternate user ids sadie then confronts sam , who admits he programmed the entire game called pioneers for her using the maple world engine , knowing she would be drawn to it and it would be a way for both of them to kind of heal together after marx's murder um . An angry sadie then cuts off contact with sam . In 2008 , sadie then has dinner with dov , who tells her that only someone who truly loved her could have done what sam did sadie forgives sam and the two reunite , selling the rights to make it should go three to a third party developer .
Speaker 1So they don't have to dwell on the past , realizing that making games with sam is one of the only things that made her truly happy . The two begin planning on fairs next game and that is the end . And again , that's just a high level summary . There are like so many details that we're missing um from there , but that's just . It's the gist of it yeah , that's the gist , and so what are your initial thoughts , michaela ?
Speaker 2I loved this book . This is definitely a top read for me this year . Uh , it's one of those books that , at least for me personally like after finishing I just felt so deep in my soul , um , and it's one I'm going to carry with me for a long time . Uh , the story I thought was I thought it was so well done where it really mimicked life and even though it definitely has a plot that it's following as far as , like unfair games is concerned , I felt like it was almost more mini subplots throughout , as opposed to having like one overarching story that kind of again like mimics life and there's a lot of imperfections in the story and the characters that I think just kind of enhanced it all together and mimicked like life and its complexities just so beautifully . I loved it . What about you , darby ? I didn't feel exactly the same way . It's gonna be a good discussion episode .
Speaker 1Um , I thought this was a good book , but I didn't necessarily enjoy reading it , if that makes sense I could totally see that um , a lot of it did feel very like real and raw , but for me I felt the author just had a sense of glass half empty the whole time , like I felt like there wasn't a lot of like positives like spoken in the book or optimism in the book which it did touch on a lot of very like hard and heavy parts about life , but I feel like it really just skipped over like happy parts of life and relationship . So that's where I just like fell off and the pacing of it , the way like it was read , was just hard for me to follow , which I think some people really liked that being kind of in that present tense the whole time with whoever it was .
Speaker 2But for me not , yeah , it definitely isn't . It reads very interestingly because it almost does like flashbacks mid-present tense without warning you that it's doing a flashback or a flash forward , and then seamlessly goes back into , like whatever present tense .
Speaker 1And you like don't know who you're like talking about until they like start talking Like who you're behind the eyes of right .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , it was definitely like it took an adjusting when you first start reading it , so I totally understand that . For me , though , I loved that part of it .
Speaker 2I think it uh , like I said it just like mimicked life and like how we have conversations and how like I could be telling you a story and all of a sudden I'm like , oh wait , but you need the context of this , so like I'm gonna go back and tell you this yeah , a tidbit and then continue on it . Kind of like mimicked that for me , which is why I kind of enjoyed it yeah , but it can be confusing yeah it was definitely .
Speaker 1I think it was just like different . It was my first time reading it and I just wasn't like hooked on that style . Yeah , but again , like the story was good but there were parts of it that I didn't enjoy , sure .
Speaker 2Did you have a favorite part ?
Speaker 1I did so . Marx yes , he was the only positive one in the book . I love Marx and kind of like one of the big reasons that really kept me into the story was his development , which I know . Sam and Sadie were the main characters , but like I could have cared less what happened to them , like all I cared about was Mark . And then also I really liked all the different video game concepts . They're really unique and I'm not a huge gamer so I don't know if there are games that are exactly like that it should go . There's got to be a game super similar to that , because that's just kind of like a story mode type of game . But those were really interesting too .
Speaker 2So I liked all of those . I was into it . What about you ? Uh , yeah , no , I thought that was really interesting too . But I agree , marks was my favorite , my tamer of horses . Um , he's just like the best friend somebody could ever have and had such a heart of gold , and I uncontrollably sobbed when he died oh my gosh , that hit me so hard . He just like I loved the comparison to him as an NPC too , which I think that stands for like non-player NPC something I knew at one point I had it and I lost it as I started talking about it .
Speaker 2I don't remember , but um , essentially like an npc is like a computerized non-player character .
Speaker 1There we go . I just looked it up . I won't take credit for that but how like they compared it ?
Speaker 2because it , like you just said , like sadie and sam are technically the main players in the game of this book . Um , and marks would be more your npc . But you can't have a story or a game without npcs , like they're the ones that keep everything moving , and I think that marks did that and oh , so beautiful , I loved him . So sad , uh . But I also did want to share one of my favorite quotes that just I don't know why this was so profound to me , but it stuck so like it was early on in the book from sadie's grandma she's the one who said it when they were like still young and visiting sam in the hospital and it just stuck in my brain and it's going to be one that I'm going to remember for a long time .
Speaker 2It's life is filled with inescapable moral compromises . We should do what we can to avoid the easy ones , and I think because I constantly talk about how life is such a grayscale and we love to try to make things so black and white , but we really don't live in a black and white world that it kind of encapsulates that it's not saying that you're never going to mess up because there are inescapable moral compromises you have to make in life . That's just life , um . But to avoid the easy ones , to do what you can to like . Stay on the right path .
Speaker 1I love that yeah , I'm curious what your least favorite part was , since you really did enjoy the book um , sadie , sadie drove me insane throughout this book .
Speaker 2Um , at first I was like all about her . I really liked her , I liked her character , I liked how it was written , like for young sadie in the beginning . Um , and sam was a little off for me and like I wasn't a big like sam friend or uh , fan . But as the book progressed I feel like sam's character went through a lot of character development and growth , whereas Sadie's almost regressed for me and she just became even more irritating and annoying and frustrating and like what are you doing ? So yeah , she was really frustrating .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2What about you ?
Speaker 1Okay , specifically the chapter where they're in the Pioneer game . It was so long and for what ?
Speaker 2Like it would have impacted me so much harder if it was shorter , but I was like we know exactly what's happening , like so I want to counter argue you on this one and I want to hear so I think it was long , I'm not necessarily element , it was really long but I think what the point of the chapter was to show the detail and development that sam made for sadie and to kind of show sadie's healing journey and so like how to be that long it was long . Sorry , I'm too stubborn on it .
Speaker 1I did not , but no , I like , get it and I get what the author was trying to do and I liked it . I just would have liked less of it .
Speaker 2Yeah , I get it . Get back to the point , because there's almost like too many details .
Speaker 1It's like I get it Like he put so much thought into it , like I don't know .
Speaker 2I understand for me . I'm such a details person , so I loved saying all the like little things .
Speaker 1Sometimes I am , but for some reason , in this instance I was just like why do we need to know that she got one carrot or something like ? True yeah , like things like that . I'm like I don't , I don't know . And then also the glass half empty view from both like sadie and and Sam for the whole book . Yeah , but now I kind of have a glass half empty view of the book . That was my least favorite .
Speaker 2What it makes you feel . No , that makes sense . Yeah , so this novel kind of depicts the complexities of love and connection in many forms . So in what ways does Sadie and sam's relationship , in your opinion , blur the lines between friendship and something more ?
Speaker 1um , so I had like notes on this a little bit farther down for another question we're talking about , but I think it almost gave more sibling like love for me sometimes .
Speaker 1I think they had a bit of like . I think sam had a little bit of young love going on , maybe in the beginning , like in the hospital , like because Sadie's the one that really brought him out of that . And then I think Sadie showed a lot of love for Sam when she compromised on the company because you could tell that that was like morally and for her values , like she was really aligning with the other one . But because of her love for sam and wanting him to be , uh , provided for , I think that showed a lot of love . And then , additionally , towards the end , when sam should love for sadie , when he was basically running the company by himself after marks and he was the one that kind of like was moving along , uh , but it's pretty clear that sam loved sadie more , yeah , in the book and I think sadie sometimes used like sam knowing like his feelings for her . So that's kind of like where I think the yeah , no , I completely agree .
Speaker 2Yeah , um , I definitely see the siblings thing more . I think that's a really good way to describe the relationship . Um , I think the key to sam and sadie's relationship is emotional intimacy because , like , this is kind of like what dove alluded to at the end of the book when he said that , uh , when he's talking to sadie about the way that sam program pioneers , like specifically for her , and like that could only be like true love , that like did that . I think it's because of the intimacy that you feel through like forms of play and he knew like so much about her intimately through their time playing video games together . But that didn't necessarily .
Speaker 2Intimacy doesn't necessarily mean romance and it doesn't have to be romantic . You could have a romantic relationship and it might be missing intimacy and you could have an intimate relationship with somebody , but it doesn't mean that has to be romantic . They're , they're not . I feel like intimacy and romantic feelings often get like mushed together because they can like you can't have a romantic intimate relationship , uh , but that doesn't mean that they're like one in the same . Yeah , I think that was like the difference . Whereas , like she had sadie had a romantic relationship with marks , but she had an intimate relationship with sam .
Speaker 1But sometimes I do question their intimacy , in a sense of like they never really talked , though , about the intimate issues for a lot of things so like Sadie not bringing up the whole like engine thing with Dove , and like her resentment in various situations she didn't express those feelings . Sam didn't express anything medically about him and those types of intimate parts of him to sadie , or like the whole marks thing , like his fears , and I get that a lot of that is like internal stuff , so you're not going to share your deepest things .
Speaker 2But when you're talking about like this pair and their intimate relationship , I feel like it was lacking so much though , of an actual relationship well , I think my counter to that would be that it's intimacy would be more like vulnerabilities and like knowing the in-depth person of somebody's like thoughts and like how they think , how they feel , and doesn't necessarily mean that it's knowing everything about the person and what's going on with them .
Speaker 2So like with um , at least , like with sam and his foot , you're right . Like he's not expressing specifically about like the struggles that he's having , but because Sadie and Marks know him so intimately and like his feelings that he almost like doesn't have to , because you kind of already know that he's feeling insecure about something or he's pushing through and trying .
Speaker 1Does that make sense ? It does . It's funny , though , that you say vulnerability , because I was , as you were saying that , I was thinking like , yeah , intimate , but it's lacking the vulnerability of them sharing like the most vulnerable parts about themselves . So that was . I found that funny .
Speaker 2I feel like this might be a difference for the two of us and how we interpret it , because I feel like you're much more of like an external Maybe , and you process things like externally versus like Sometimes Justin would very much disagree , really . Yeah , I feel like , at least for us , like when we're talking , I feel like you're always like vocalizing your thought processes and things . Friendships are different . Yes , which they were clearly friends Right yes , but they were clearly friends .
Speaker 2Right for like , for like . I'm much more of like , an internal like . I love to process things internally first before I start vocalizing to work it out . So maybe that that can also be like the difference in how we interpreted things too . This is very true , but , uh , interesting . But I do agree , though that um , definitely more of a sibling relationship . I feel that could be misconstrued and I loved the way you said young love for Sam . I completely agree because he's kind of stuck in that middle school relationship feeling throughout the whole book . I agree . So did the book focusing on games enhance your understanding of the story or was it challenging to kind of connect , since we're both not really gamers ?
Speaker 1I think it enhanced it and that you didn't necessarily need to be a gamer and I'm not a gamer , but I feel like you play a lot of games .
Speaker 1Yeah , I was gonna say I feel like I understood , like I know what it means to like , like what a sandbox game is , or like story mode co-op , like those kinds of things , like so obviously I don't know like what the engine graphics are but I don't know if , if I knew nothing about games , how that would change , but for my low level knowledge of games , I think it enhanced it and again , like I said , it was one of my favorite parts was like learning about the different games and I wanted to play them .
Speaker 2Yeah no , I agree . Uh , I'm not .
Speaker 1I couldn't even tell you sandbox what that means , like I'm pretty sure , and video gamers correct me if I'm wrong , but like minecraft is like a sandbox game when it's like there's not necessarily a goal . So like um , it's just a sandbox like play so , like in minecraft , you're just building something .
Speaker 1So I'm pretty sure like um , like maple world would have been like a sandbox game , the sims a sandbox game . I think I could be wrong on some of those , but I think , when it's not like um , like a story mode is like , uh , like the hogwarts video game , like there's a story that you're following , whereas sandbox game is like there's not necessarily like a goal , sure , like I think the pokemon game is a sandbox one and that's just like your goal is to catch them all and like win all the different um battles , but it's , it's like free roaming . I could be so wrong , I could totally be wrong , so I'm gonna have justin listen to this and critique me after that .
Speaker 2No , that makes that makes perfect sense to me , uh , but I don't have like some of that . Like I play what I think I play mario kart and that's about it .
Speaker 1You know what I mean .
Speaker 2I'm not like I'm not big into the gaming world but .
Speaker 2I still like I think the author that you said did a good job of like keeping it more high level for like people understanding , and it did kind of dive deep into like the intricacies of developing a game , but not to where somebody who has no idea what they're talking about would be confused , like it's still easy to fall and you kind of learn about the process a little bit . Um , and I thought that the having the gaming be like symbolism of life helped you like conceptualize and like make the or make the concepts more like tangible to understand and like some of the symbolism of it .
Speaker 1What do you mean ? Gaming was symbolism of life , like so okay .
Speaker 2So this is why I loved the book , because throughout the book , like I said , the whole plot is like this kind of the gaming world and the making this whole games . But , um , when they start talking about certain games , um , like the restart for life and how you can , oh , yes , yes , yes , those yes , okay , they had like certain like because you could like .
Speaker 2You know you can restart a game , but like when marks died , like yeah , that's the end of it like he's there's no , there is no restart for life kind of thing , which is why so many people love video games , because you get to live in an infinite world , essentially . But they had a lot of themes like that throughout the whole book that I think , by connecting them to games , made them more tangible for you to understand . Good analogies , yes , so yeah , I think it really helped the book more for sure .
Speaker 1Yeah , how does the novel explore the ups and downs of working with others on creative projects , and have you yourself experienced a similar dynamic in a partnership or creative project ?
Speaker 2So I think the book shows more like how pressures from the outside world or outside forces can change a working dynamic within a group .
Speaker 2I think that's kind of more what it showed as far as a group creative project is concerned , because in the beginning , when they're working on Ichigo before they're unknowns there's low stakes and so they're able to really find their way Not saying that didn't have like creative differences or tiffs or things like that within the development of it , but because it's more low stakes , they were able to like take more risk with it or they really were able to divide up the like um work between their strengths and their weaknesses um for , like sam being able to do more of like the creative art and for sadie doing much more of like the technical developing of it all , versus after ichigo became such a huge thing .
Speaker 2The stakes were much higher for them , which caused a lot more tension and caused cracks for like ego to creep in a lot more , which is where , like sadie started feeling resentment towards sam for the whole using her for to get to dov thing or for taking credit for her feeling like taking credit um for , uh , some of the programming that she felt she deserved more credit for . So I think that the higher stakes is what caused more tension for them within their creative dynamic . Um , and although I've never experienced something like that , I feel like we kind of experienced that a little bit with the podcast , not the I have so much resentment towards my just kidding .
Speaker 2It would be the other way around not that yeah , not the negative part , but but like the low stakes , like we're just doing this for fun and we're really playing to each other's strengths , and like what we do for this podcast . That I think kind of like shows in the beginning of the book a little bit too , and how we can connect to that . Yeah , just my thoughts what about you ?
Speaker 1what do you think ? Um . So it was hard for me at first to think about the successes of working together creatively , because I feel like the book skipped over much of that , yeah , um and focused more so on the downs and the struggles and the resentment I feel like it was almost like watching the backside of water , where you see like you know the successes are there and you kind of hear about them in the background , but you're focusing on the back side of it , the technical side of it all , where they're having all these cracks and not the facade yeah , but it just is like how sad and boring is that ?
Speaker 1yeah , like depressing , yeah , but I do think the author did a great job of showcasing the drive of like young , passionate professionals similarly to what you were saying versus the pressure and lack of desire to put yourself in that vulnerable position as you get older , trying to like keep up with the times . Yeah . So I think the author showed that really well . I can't really think of any personal sentiments , of something so high stakes or with like monetary value , any kind of partnership like that . But in every partnership or creative project , any sort of group thing , you're gonna feel a push and pull , just because it . I mean it would be weird if you didn't , because people are , we're all different so .
Speaker 2I can't think of any of any things you work so well with so many people , though , that you are truly it's so funny . When we were reading this book , I was thinking about how much Marx reminds me of you , because you truly are like that kind of friend , my favorite character . But you are because you have , like , such a positive . I'm just kidding . Well , now I'm not gonna continue . No , I appreciate that .
Speaker 1I appreciate that , but it's true because you have such like a positive outlook .
Speaker 2That's part of the problem with the book and maybe that's because you are such a positive person versus like I don't know . Yeah , more of the negatives of the book , but , um , but how he's such a good friend and , like anticipates so many of like his friends needs from him , without them happy because they have a hard time expressing what they need and just like meeting them where they are .
Speaker 2We talked about this I feel like you do the same thing , though , no , but you do it different . Like it's hard , I guess it's hard to explain . So I was trying to talk about this like we were in the car yesterday . Um , how you are , you're really good at like meeting people where they are and less about like having expectations of what people should be like or like what you wish they would be doing . Um , you have a lot of grace for people where they are in life , but I think mark's also had to , so yeah , guys .
Speaker 1Michaela's giving me a big ego when I'm being obnoxious . Blame her . No , I appreciate that . Um , before I start to cry from your compliments , what role do you think forgiveness plays in the story ? Are Sam and Sadie good at forgiving each other , or do you think their reconciliation at the end of the book feels earned ? Why or why not ?
Speaker 2So forgiveness is definitely a main theme in this book , whether it's given or not given , it's just kind of like underlying always there . I feel like um . I think that the author does a good job of showing the power of like healing from forgiveness , as well as the detriment it can bring if we hold on to a grudge too long . More so the latter um . But forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean that you have to like keep that person in your life forever , which I think she kind of shows with dov um , in the sense that sadie kept dov around for too long . Like you could forgive somebody and like move on from them , but that doesn't mean that they have to continually be a part of your life like you . Two things can be true at once to like let go of that grudge , versus like with sam she was holding such a grudge against him , and not to say that sam didn't either , but I'm just a city hater , so we're gonna use her for my example . Yeah , um , and uh just completely kicked him out of her life entirely for it .
Speaker 2Versus like recognizing that like what she was really mad about was more of a projection of like her insecurities they both needed therapy they did , they did um , but I feel like sam learned forgiveness , more so by the end of the book because he struggled that obviously with the beginning of the book , whereas sadie just didn't at At least where Sam was concerned , and I don't know if the reconciliation really felt earned , but it did feel real because I felt like not , we never get like a perfect forgiveness or people truly like learn from their mistakes even if they're forgiven , like in real life kind of thing .
Speaker 2It's more having that wanting to keep that person around in your life , so accepting the person back by forgiving them . But that kind of connected to like this full circle moment that I loved between , uh , sam and sadie , from like how sam was forgiving sadie from the childhood thing of um , you know , using him for service hours , uh , when he saw her in the subway and that's when they first started their journey . And then the full circle moment back to when Sadie was leaving on the plane but she gave Sam like and test her of her new game , just like she did way back when I didn't even make the transportation connection .
Speaker 2But yeah , I didn't , until I was processing this book later , and then it kind of hit me in the struck of realization and so it was like that full circle , like , okay , sam forgave Sadie at the beginning of the book and then , in a similar mirror of it , sadie was then forgiving Sam to start a new game together . So I liked that . I did like the way that ended .
Speaker 1But that then forgiving sam to start a new game together . So I liked that . I did like the way that ended . But that was my really , really long-winded rant on forgiveness , so I'd love to hear your thoughts . I feel like forgiveness like plays a role in the story , like especially between sam and sadie . Are they good at forgiving each other , like yes and no , because they forgive each other throughout the book , but both of them hold resentment in many forms . So true , and I don't know if that can really be considered forgiveness if there's a grudge that follows , um , because it doesn't have to be a forgive and forget , but it does have to be like a forgive and like move on yeah , um , or if you are continuing the relationship like forgive and like grow and let back in um .
Speaker 1So this is where it felt a lot like sibling arguments between sam and sadie because , like all the memes with like sisters of , like you took my shirt , like I hate you , and it's like want to go get starbucks , like they very much like didn't necessarily talk about , like what they were upset about , but then would just kind of okay , we got the next game , like that kind of stuff , um . And then I do feel that their reconciliation at the end feels earned .
Speaker 1Maybe it's just because I'm looking for the positives in the story so I just um want that , and so , for me , if anything , I think there should have been more , and but maybe that's the author's whole point is to make you frustrated about both the characters and our lack of control about what they do and what they say , which , if that's the case , she did a good job of making me feel frustrated .
Speaker 2That's a great point , I do agree . I wish that because it was the end and having a little bit more of that true forgiveness because there was so much resentment throughout the book there and like having a little bit more of that true forgiveness because there was so much resentment throughout the book there's almost like a little reprieve and relief and I have resentment that sam never met sadie's kid .
Speaker 1Yeah , true , what the heck sam . That was ridiculous . Well , no , not . What the heck sam . What the heck sadie ? No , because sam's the one that never wanted to go see sadie's kid no , sam wasn't allowed at sadie's house because sadie was like don't come to my house that's true .
Speaker 2I'm really mad at sadie for holding the grudge for such a long time over literally nothing , and I'm so proud of sam for how he handled everything after marx's death and like giving her that space and everything . But afterwards , um , when they like met up , when he met her um , when she was teaching at mit , he could have easily , easily tried to see the kid or never asked for a picture .
Speaker 1Yeah but that's not his place to ask for that .
Speaker 2They just never talked about it . So I guess it's on both of them , but that was kind of yeah , no , that bothered me too . Okay , a little bit more fun . Which of the video games in the book sounded like the most interesting to you ? There's Ichigo Both Sides Pioneers . The video games in the book did sounded like the most interesting to you . There's like a cheat . It should go both sides pioneers . I think there's also master of the rebels , was the name of it ?
Speaker 1yeah , so I ranked a couple of them . Both sides sounded the coolest to me . Um , especially if it was a co-op game . So that's like , if you've seen on tiktok the couples that play the game , it takes two . Um , it's a game on the switch . You and josh should play it , where it's like you can't move on or do a task without the other person doing something at the same time . So it'd be like you have to push , you have to jump on this thing for me to go for , like this gate to enter , for me to go through , and then when I go through , I have to shoot this block so that you can jump over the block to get through . So fun .
Speaker 1So I thought if both sides was a co-op game where , like , one person was in the Maple World and the other one was in the Dream one and they had to do things to help each other , that would be really cool . Yeah , but I'm just adding to the game , so I don't , but I still that one sounded cool . And then that followed by Ichigo , because I really like a story game , like following something and having a goal . Then the last one was the Pioneers , because when I was younger I would love games like Sims and Dress Up and your House , but stuff like Animal Crossing , I don't know , that's not really my thing anymore . If I play a game that one I didn't like that one .
Speaker 2I agree . I'm not an open world type of person . I need an objective . Um , I can't just like go on for fun .
Speaker 1I know a lot of people find like relaxation in that and the mindlessness of it , which is kind of like the whole point if I think stuff like that would make me sad because it's like , well , I can't put an apple tree in my house , like yeah , I wish I could do this in real life . Get a new couch , like no , but I totally agree .
Speaker 2Yeah , my whole world would probably be at the bottom of my list but , I agree , though , with both sides . I think that would be really fun , and I really like the way that you changed that to be like two-player co-op . Yeah , love that that sounds like even a better way to do it .
Speaker 2Um , and then master of the rebels was another one that kind of intrigued me because I like a murder mystery and again there's like a plot , but I feel like it's also a little dark , so I'm like not sure how much I would really like it getting a little scared . I'd have to test it out and see , I don't know , but um , we should definitely play both sides together . That would be fun yes , actually .
Speaker 1So that game it takes two that I was talking about . I got it because I was like justin and I could play video games together and justin was like I hate this so now , um , our friend shelby , she's been coming over and now we're playing it like I started it on a different profile with her and we're like past where justin and I went now , so I was like whatever now it's shelby in my game I love that .
Speaker 2No , I'm definitely going to have to look into that . That sounds really fun .
Speaker 1I think you and Josh would really like it .
Speaker 2Okay , I'm looking . I will definitely look into it .
Speaker 1Would you read another book by this author ?
Speaker 2I would , because I really enjoyed the writing and the symbolism and I loved the full circle moments and the callbacks to the beginning of the book . I think it really helped solidify , at least for me , the meanings that the author is trying to get through to you about the book , and I definitely think this is one of those books that's more about what you're taking away from it than the story and escapism of it in itself kind of thing which I enjoyed and was expecting . So I would . I think I liked it . What about you ?
Speaker 1Maybe Depends on the description of the book and like what it's about . Yeah , I also think I would definitely need a friend to read it to get their insight first , before I like go into it . Yeah , so maybe I won't say no , but I'm not like saying yes , it changed for me .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah , I get that .
Speaker 1So then , what were your final thoughts ? Star rating . Star rating was like a 3.5 it was arguably a good book , but I think just like and I tried not to feel this way , but it just felt like the author was almost trying too hard to make it feel real at some points , or to make you feel sad and cry and , as I've said multiple times , like what life is not all like depressed , though like you're not .
Speaker 1It's not all sad thing , so I just wish there was um a little more evenness , sure um in it a little more like yeah , light yeah , just a little more light , because I don't know , I wouldn't want to live in the world she wrote down . There's way more positives than that .
Speaker 2Sure .
Speaker 1We just brushed over a lot of them , so 3.5 . It was good , but I was relieved when I was done with the book . So that has to say something about how I felt about it .
Speaker 2I think it's totally fair . I understand that one . For me it was a five star . That was a shocker , hey , but that's what's cool about books it's such an intimate thing . Yes , I love talking about books that we agree on , but I love talking about books we disagree on more . It's so fascinating . Yeah , um , from like what I see versus like what you see . I just I love that . So , but there was a five star for me . Um , I think it was imperfect and real , but that's why I liked about it . It had beautiful life lessons sprinkled throughout . It almost felt like a modern-day fable to me , because I feel like when you talk about like Aesop's fables , like they're not necessarily happy all the time .
Speaker 1No , I really like that , but you have like the message .
Speaker 2That's what this felt like to me .
Speaker 1Yeah , like a warning of like friendships and working together yeah .
End of Spoilers
Speaker 1So yeah , like friendships and working together . Yeah , so yeah , I loved it and that's the book . That's the book . Not only is that the book , but that is our last book talk of 2024 so sad and exciting all at the same time .
Speaker 2I can't believe we're already at the end of the year it's crazy .
Speaker 1So next month we'll have one more holiday themed episode to kind of close out our first season of the podcast . Then we'll be announcing our first book of 2025 when we pick back up in January with season two . Don't worry , we won't be gone long . And then also something really exciting is we are going to start using Fable for our book club book talks . So join our club through the link in the show description . You can also find the link in our instagram bio at lazy girl library I really enjoyed using this .
Speaker 2We kind of did a test run with this book and I thought it was really fun it was really cool .
Speaker 1Um , again , we're new at it , so it might not be perfect the first couple books that we do it , but we'd love for you to join . Yeah , it would be so cool yeah .
Speaker 2Just come talk to us about books . Yeah , Speaking of talking about books more . What are we reading ? What are your borrows and returns ?
Speaker 1Okay , so my only return is Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow . Yep , because that took me a while to get through . That's okay , but yeah , anyway . Now Borrowing is finale , by Stephanie Garber or Gerbert Garber . I don't remember it's the third series and the final book in the Carvel series , so I'm excited to be back in that world I definitely needed something that was like me after that book .
Speaker 1So it's going really good and I'm excited and , without giving like much away , the first book is from like one sister's point of view . The second book is from the other sister's point of view and it looks like this one is from like both their point of views and they both have kind of like different storylines going on right now .
Speaker 2So I'm excited , interesting . I do have this series on my list . I own the first book and I am excited to try it out for how much you really enjoy it .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's like . Yeah , it just feels like different yeah .
Speaker 2I'm curious . I feel like a lot of the romantic fantasy books can start to feel a lot of the same .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So I appreciate that the concept of this one is a little different , at least from what I can tell .
Speaker 1Yes , I appreciate that the concept of this one is a little different , at least from what I can tell . Yes , it is different . They're not wearing any leather battle suits . I love the uniqueness . What about you ? What are you borrowing and returning ?
Speaker 2Borrowers . I'm just about done with Harry Potter and Half-Blood Prince Crushing it . I am reading these like a fiend oh my gosh , I can't get enough . And so then I will be starting the Deathly Hallows , which is the last book in the series . I'm hoping to have it finished by the end of the year . You can do it . Thanks , I think I can . I think I can do it . But yeah , we're fully back on the Harry Potter train and I'm looking forward to finishing the series . Out my returns . I only have one other than tomorrow . Tomorrow . Tomorrow it's tuesdays with maury by mitch album . I did this on audio and I cried almost the whole four hours .
Speaker 1I'm so glad you liked it .
Speaker 2Oh my gosh , I don't know . November is like emotional month for me . This the tomorrow , tomorrow book made me cry and then , after I've read that one , because I was still feeling like all the like emotions , yeah in my feels .
Speaker 2I was like I need another good , like feely kind of book and I remember you talking about this one and that was really good . So I was like , okay , let's try this . And it's like quick too . Yeah , it was like a super . I don't know how , like , how many pages it is , because I did it on audio , but it's only a four-hour audiobook . So like really quick , really quick . Oh my gosh , absolutely loved it . It did it hit me right in those feels , had so many like where this book talked about life and its negatives . This book talked about life and so many of its positives , and so I think this is truly one of those like everybody should read it at some point . Yeah , kind of books .
Speaker 1I read it in high school and then , funny enough I don't remember how this happened but then my English teacher at the time had us read the book and so I was like , wait , I've already done it . So I think it's such a cute book and , like you just said , a book that has such good reminders that we all need to hear , because someone told me one time that it's not necessarily that a lot of us need to learn things , but we just need to be reminded things a lot um so yeah , such good reminders it is you ?
Speaker 2will cry yes , but that's okay , it did it . It definitely , yeah , made me emotional and , um , I think I'm gonna make this like an annual read for november for me , because I think it does have so many of those like good reminders , like you said , like we need to be reminded a lot of these things . It's not that you don't know about them already , but it's just like the making sure that they're the forefront of your mind or bringing them back to like being conscious about a lot of these things , and because it's such a short read .
Speaker 2Yeah , this is gonna be like an annual thanksgiving read for me .
Speaker 1I love that . I haven't read it since high school , so maybe I should go back and do a little reread . It could be fun , so good .
Speaker 2Good , feel-good book .
Speaker 1Yes , and that's it . That's it for this month's book club episode . Be sure to let us know what you thought . A lot of our at least our mutual friends have read this book , so I'm curious to pick their brains . So let us know in the comments , let us know what books you want us to be reading for our next book club . Um , you can dm us on lazygirllibrarycom words . You can dm us on lazy girl library instagram . Commented on any of the podcasts ? Yep , like we're listening .
Speaker 2You can also reach out to us on our contact us at thelazygirllibrarycom , our website . Join our fable . It will be in the link in the show's description , as well as our instagram , so come join us there so we can talk about more books yeah , thanks so much for joining .
Speaker 1We'll see you next time , bye , bye . Well , dear listeners , we find ourselves at the end of another episode and remember , the Lazy Girl Library is not just a podcast . It's a community . We absolutely love hearing from fellow book lovers , so don't forget to share your thoughts and your favorite reads with us on our social media . You can find us on Instagram at Lazy Girl Library . Make sure to check out our website , lazygirllibrarycom , your one-stop shop for all things Lazy Girl . Before we go , we want to take a moment to thank all of our wonderful listeners , whether you're listening from your cozy bed , on your way to work or anywhere in between . Thank you for making us a part of your day and for being a part of our Lazy Girl family . So keep those pages turning , keep those imaginations flourishing and remember the best stories are yet to be discovered . Until next time , stay lazy and happy reading .
