The Lazy Girl Library
The Lazy Girl Library is a charming book podcast hosted by two best friends. Expect laughter, witty banter, and a generous sprinkle of fun as we dive into the stories that have captured our hearts and minds. So grab your favorite blanket, a cup of tea or coffee, and curl up with us as we embark on a captivating literary adventure.
The Lazy Girl Library
The Women by Kristin Hannah - Book Talk
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The Vietnam War left scars that never fully healed—especially for the women who served but came home to find their sacrifices erased from the national narrative. In this deeply moving episode, we dive into Kristin Hannah's masterpiece "The Women," exploring how one nurse's journey from battlefield to home front illuminates a forgotten chapter of American history. This will be our final episode until June as we take a brief hiatus for wedding planning and work commitments, but we'll return this summer refreshed and ready for more literary adventures. In the meantime, connect with us on Instagram or Fable to share your thoughts on "The Women" and what books we should feature when we return!
SPOILER WARNING!
Start: 6:09
End: 54:20
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Welcome to Lazy Girl Library
Speaker 1Welcome to the Lazy Girl Library , the podcast , where reading is a pleasure and captivating adventures happen from the comfort of your couch . I'm your host , darby , and I'm Mikayla , and if you've ever spent more time rearranging your bookshelf than your priorities , then you , my friend , are in the right place . Hello .
Speaker 2Darby . Hey , mikayla , welcome back listeners .
Speaker 1We're so happy you're here .
Speaker 2This is our book talk for the month of March . We read the Women by Kristen Hanna .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , I love Kristen . I love her . Before we get into the book , let's do a little life check-in . What are our five stars and one star for the month ?
Speaker 2Oh , I didn't think about this ahead of time . My five star , um , I've been really good about taking time in the mornings , when I've been like home , when I work from home , or , um , on the weekends , to sit out on my patio and enjoy the nice weather that we're having right now , that's good my tea . Do a little morning meditation for myself . No , that's good .
Speaker 2Get into like a good mindset . I've been like very , very intentional with it and regardless of how stressed I am , then I always make sure I take that little time to , like you know , start the day off right . I love that . I think that would probably be my five star . My one star , um , it's just excited for this wedding . But this wedding is stressful . Uh , lots going on , uh , taking up a lot of my time , energy , mind , space , so . So that's just kind of been all consuming in my life and I'm excited , but it's also stressful .
Speaker 1Yeah , wedding planning can kind of be a full time job sometimes .
Speaker 2So we're working through it , and the thing that keeps me going is that I just keep thinking about the day , yeah , and how it's gonna be amazing and perfect and everything will be great .
Speaker 1It is , and I mean you can't stop it . It you're locked in , like it's gonna happen , so and it's gonna be great . Yeah , what about you ? All ? Right , five star , probably .
Speaker 1We had a big work event on thursday and it went really well and I got to lead it , um , so it's been something that I've been working on for a long time and we like exceeded goals and had , you know , meet , like we had raised the most money that we'd ever raised at that event , which was really cool , and the the day was so seamless , like the event itself had no fires , um , and when you plan any event , like there's always going to be a fire , like on my wedding , there was things that happened , you know , like things just like happen in events . Um , and I've to this event in the past and there's always something that happens , but nothing happened . I kept waiting for , like the ball to drop and I was like this is crazy . So , knock on wood , hopefully post event things go good and something doesn't happen . But so proud of you , thank you , thank , did so hard , thank you , yeah , so it was really fun and , yeah , very impactful .
Speaker 1One star is probably just how tired I am now and the fact that I can't stop because we have another big event in May . So I have one month to kind of really hone in on that . And , yeah , burnout is coming , but it's okay because we're just going to push through and in June I'll be a new woman , so for your wedding I'm gonna be amazing and in much , much higher spirits , but it's . It's weird because it's such like a roller coaster . It's like I'm so happy about this stuff and I'm having fun , but it's hard and I'm tired and I'm really tired and some things are frustrating . But this is really great , still like I'm enjoying it . So that's kind of like I've been feeling five stars and one stars . We keep going up and down .
Speaker 2Yeah , this time it's been pretty crazy for both of us .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I think , for our listeners . Unfortunately , this is going to be our last episode , at least until .
Speaker 1Just for the spring season .
Speaker 2Just for the spring season , at least until June . We'll be right back up in the summer , hot , fresh , ready to go .
Speaker 1Day after the wedding , we're going to do a podcast . I'm just kidding .
Speaker 2You know , sometimes life just takes over and because this is something fun that we like to do , priorities got to take importance at that point . So unfortunately it will be a little bit of a break for us , but we're not going away far long . We will be back , promise .
Speaker 1Yes , and maybe I'll try and post more on Instagram . I'm sorry I'm so bad at that , but maybe I'll try and post some more videos , while we don't post a full podcast . We'll put some more content out in other ways , but this is a great time to let us
The Women by Kristin Hannah
Speaker 1know what you want us to read when we get back and to tell us what you guys are up to and for you guys to keep us in the loop for book talk and bookstagram and all that fun stuff . Give us the feedback .
Speaker 2This is a perfect time when we come back for us to kind of regroup and um really cater to what you guys want to hear from us . So let us know on our Instagram , at Lazy Girl Library , on our website , lazygirllibrarycom . You can even find us on Fable . I know we had a lot of thoughts there on our book this month .
Speaker 1That's right .
Speaker 2So if you're on there with us , then you've got the little sneak preview of our thoughts that we're about to talk about . But keep up with us there .
Speaker 1Yeah , and we'll be back soon . Yeah , it's only going to be for April and May that we're probably going to like skip out on , and then we'll be back in June , like the end of June , so it'll go by fast .
Speaker 2Yep , yay , but getting into this episode .
Speaker 1What did not go by fast ? The Vietnam War . Yeah , oh my gosh , oh this book .
Speaker 2Kristen , not more . Oh my gosh , oh this book . Kristen , you have my heart , but at the same time , oh , you break it every time .
Speaker 1You've taken my heart . You've taken it All right . So we can get into a little reading recap and before we get into it , we'll give a little content , warning that there are a lot of heavy themes of violence and the struggles women can face during pregnancy . So please be careful listening and if these are triggering topics for you , um , maybe skip out on this one . Warning book spoilers ahead . Please head to the description and show notes to find where to skip to .
Speaker 2You have been warned skip to the end yeah , it is best for you . So um , but we start off in May of 1966 in Coronado Island , california , where we're introduced to Frances Frankie Grace McGrath . She is mingling at a party for her brother Finley's deployment to Vietnam as a Navy sailor .
Speaker 1Frankie is from a lavishly wealthy and prominent family with a very pedigreed military background . There was never any doubt in the minds of the McGrath parents that both Finley and his best friend Rye Walsh would enlist in the armed forces . So this party is a long-expected celebration of a dream being fulfilled .
Speaker 2Bette and Connor McGrath . Frankie's parents don't have such high military hopes for Frankie . However , she struggles with her family's misogynistic , limited view of the obligations she and her brother are under Rye , on the other hand , encourages Frankie to believe that women can also do heroic things .
Speaker 1After Finley's tragic death and action , Frankie defiles her parents' wishes and enlists as a nurse . She begins basic training for field nursing duties in the surgical division in 1967 and is quickly deployed to Vietnam .
Speaker 2Although she is initially horrified by the brutality and scale of wartime violence , she quickly adapts to life on base wartime violence . She quickly adapts to life on base and while in Vietnam she builds loving friendships with two nurses , she shares a quote-unquote pooch with named Barb and Ethel and she steps into her new role as a surgical nurse working under Dr Jamie Callahan .
Speaker 1Frankie and Jamie hesitantly begin a relationship , knowing it can go nowhere because Jamie is married . However , all seems to be lost when Jamie apparently dies from injuries sustained in a helicopter crash shortly before finishing his deployment .
Speaker 2Frankie has almost no time to grieve . Because of her excellent nursing skills , she's quickly assigned to a far more dangerous area in the highlands of Fleetview . Barb is exhausted from her tours and plans to go home without reenlisting after this next assignment .
Speaker 1Frankie takes a weekend break in Saigon with Barb and runs into her brother's friend , rye . Their attraction is instant , but Frankie does not act on it because Rye is engaged .
Speaker 2After a more grueling time in the OR , Frankie is forced to take an R&R break in Kauai , Hawaii , where she runs into Rai , who soon tells her he broke off his engagement to a girl at home to be with her . They then enter into a passionate love affair that helps them escape from the horrors of the war for a while .
Speaker 1After Frankie's tour in Vietnam ends in March 1968 , she knows she's still needed and chooses to extend her service , as does Rye . During her second tour , she sees more horrible wartime atrocities than she can count , including the effects that napalm had on the soldiers and civilians alike . She begins to drink more regularly to dull the disgust and shock .
Speaker 2In March of 1969 , Frankie returns to California after a riotous party celebrating the end of her second tour . As she waits
Book Breakdown: Frankie's Journey
Speaker 2for ride to return to the US and for their reunion , she discovers that life at home is not much easier than life in Vietnam .
Speaker 1The US is erupting in anti-war protests and , instead of being seen as a hero , many think of Frankie and the veterans like her as villains . She learns that her parents are ashamed of her service and had lied about where she had gone to their well-heeled friends and family .
Speaker 2Frankie has terrible , reoccurring nightmares about the violence in Vietnam and isolates herself from her former friends . Things only get worse when she finds out from Rai's father that Rai had been killed in Vietnam . To add insult to injury , his remains are unrecoverably damaged . So there's no memorial service .
Speaker 1His death devastates Frankieie and she loses her temporary job at the local hospital because she wasn't actively involved in combat . The va also denies her mental or medical health care . Feeling like everyone despises her , frankie turns to barb and ethel for help . Ethel offers her a place at her father's farmhouse , giving frankie room to plan what's next and to adjust to her new lonely life without Rye .
Speaker 2The narrative shifts towards the girl in 1971 in Virginia , where Frankie , who's now 25 , has picked up the threads of her former life . She's now a well-respected surgical nurse and is living with Barb and Ethel .
Speaker 1Barb convinces Frankie to attend an anti-war protest in DC . Frankie receives news that her mother has had a stroke and her father is struggling to cope . She returns home to Coronado and partially reconciles with her parents .
Speaker 2Frankie then joins a group focused on bringing home prisoners of war and starts a relationship with a man named Henry Acevedo , an anti-war psychiatrist who supports and shows very persistent interest in her . She becomes pregnant quickly and they agree to marry , to the relief of Frankie's parents .
Speaker 1Things go steeply downhill , however , when Frankie learns that Rye was not killed in combat after , but returned to the US as a former POW prisoner of war and has a wife and child . He was never engaged , but married and told no one . Frankie is so shocked that she miscarries and decides to end her relationship with Henry because it's only making her feel worse .
Speaker 2Throughout this period she's been relying on mood-altering pills to regulate her PTSD . But after breaking things off with Henry , she begins to take more and more and drink daily . She spirals into full-blown addiction .
Speaker 1Unsurprisingly , this has a negative impact on both her professional and personal life and she's fired from her nursing job at the hospital . Rye comes to see her and , despite her initial fury , she can't resist beginning a new relationship with him .
Speaker 2He promises he'll leave his wife for her repeatedly , but never actually does . Frankie is willing to live in hope until she discovers that Bri's wife is pregnant with their second child . Once again , he has utterly deceived her . She's miserable and overwhelmed and , in her despair , overdoses on pills .
Speaker 1Frankie's parents and a few remaining friends have been very concerned about her since she returned from Vietnam . But this is the final straw . Henry runs a treatment program at the local hospital where they push for her to be admitted . Henry explains to Frankie that she has PTSD from her service in Vietnam and that it's the reason for her nightmares and the root of her addictions .
Speaker 2Frankie still feels like no one understands what she did in Vietnam . When Frankie finishes recovery , she resolves to start completely afresh , away from Coronado and her past life .
Speaker 1She buys a run-down farmhouse in Montana , just outside Missoula . She has a vision for how she can help other former nurses like herself deal with the aftermath of Vietnam . She collaborates with Donna , another nurse with PTSD , to transform the property into a sanctuary for female Vietnam veterans , called the Last Best Place . It's a success and women from all over the country come to recover and to live in community .
Speaker 2The book concludes as Frankie attends the unveiling of the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC . The reader gets one final surprise . In the last pages , frankie reunites with a recently divorced Jamie who had survived his crash .
Speaker 1Yeah , he did .
Speaker 2All right , this was a very high , high-level summary of what happened in this book because there was so much detail and trauma to it , so much . But this is just a little taste for those who need a refresh on the book , or if you don't plan to read it , but want to listen to the episode anyway , so you can kind of understand what we're talking about . But , darby , what were your initial thoughts ?
Speaker 1Initial thoughts . Kristen Hanna is a genius . She knows how to write . I just think she has such a way with words and portraying history in an incredibly emotional and moving way , but also in a way that's easy to understand . I was never a history buff in school . There's probably a lot of things that I was quote unquote taught that I do not know anything about , probably a lot of things that I was quote-unquote taught that I do not know anything about , and so it was very like it was very eye-opening again to learn about history and and she just made it so easy to understand it was just yeah , that she's great she's so great .
Speaker 2I couldn't agree more like it's like what a painfully beautiful story . It truly puts into perspective the trauma the Vietnam War caused for so many , but especially the women , in very different ways than most wars in history . And , like you said , I like history and , growing up , I knew a lot , and you hear about these things , and you know a lot of the struggles that Vietnam veterans had coming back from the war , generically speaking , at least in my case . But to hear it from A a new perspective and B in the level of detail to where you can truly feel for them , oh my gosh , it just yeah . It gave me such a new perspective and the tone of the book really helped you to feel like Frankie's feelings with her which Kristen does .
Speaker 1So , yeah , I think that's one of the biggest differences . And why , like her writing of historical fiction is so like , hits home so much more is because you have that emotional tie , like when you're reading from history books . You're not like connecting with them in any way , because it's so like it's so high level of overview of what happens and she just really makes it personal .
Speaker 2It gives it like an out-of-body experience where you feel like you're almost like Frankie in the story . Which helps you . Yeah , like connect to it in such a real way .
Speaker 1Yeah , it was great . What do you think your favorite part was of the book ?
Speaker 2I loved the sisterhood that Frankie had with Barb and Ethel .
Speaker 1It was so good .
Speaker 2It was so incredibly moving and I think what was so great about it is they were able to find this connection during the war to help them all cope and get through . But I loved how it transcended the war and they really kept in touch and were able to help each other out even when they came back home , because it's so easy to like move on or like get caught up in your own life , especially because they're in such different parts of the country .
Speaker 1but as soon as like frankie needed them , barb and ethel were there in an instant to be there for her , and like vice versa .
Speaker 2Even when , like they didn't know they needed each other , they were there for each other despite like everything , like all the different things that are going on in their life , like ethel starting a family and barb , you know , being part of these political movements , like , but they're always willing to drop it all to be there yeah , their , their relationship was like my favorite relationship out of all the different characters .
Speaker 1That was great . I think . My favorite part , kind of like what my initial thoughts were , honestly just learning more about a war and history that I didn't know much about . Of all the wars that I've learned about , vietnam I probably knew the least about , so this was really interesting , um , to just like learn and especially because , like this is a war that our grandparents were , you know , could have been a part of or they were alive for , and even like my parents were born in like 1961 and 1963 . So this was time of like their early childhood , which I think is really interesting too , like knowing , like it makes more sense , like some of the views that they have because of learning about how , like what world they were brought up in right , um , yeah , absolutely because it like , because it it was so recent in history too , I feel like like the nightingale I loved .
Speaker 2but it's almost easy to still kind of remove yourself from that time period a little bit , because of it being a little bit further in history than this one was , but because there are so many things that you recognize or understand in recent history from it that it almost hit a little bit harder for all the traumas that these people went through .
Speaker 1But did you have a least favorite part ? I did . Honestly , it was like a lot of men and a lot of male relationships , but it also like made sense . So I understand , like why they were different men , because like and like that's just how life went , you know , like she had her morals so she wasn't going to get with Jamie in the war because he was married . But then she learned how fast that things can change and she should have said her feelings to him and pursued stuff . And then you meet Rye and then she's like a push and pull and then you think he's gone and then it's like OK , I have nothing left . But then this guy like so I get it , but I just wanted things to be easier for her . That's not real life . So I understand it . But because this is still fiction , if I'm not liking anything , it's like I wish that it could have been easier for her . And then she just kind of had one guy or two . Three was like just like one too many , I don't know .
Speaker 2No , I get that I'm just kind of similar . I know it was really intentional and it's what makes Kristen's writing like so incredible .
Speaker 1Yeah , like it , it made sense . Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 2But yeah , it's just like my least favorite was like how long it took for me to finally find peace .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , it's just it's heartbreaking to hear and like all of the like constant you know , trying to help people but then like getting caught up in these like love triangle things but then never being able to truly like pursue anything and having you know that love lost , um . But then also like her coming home and trying to find that help from people um , but you know she knew something was wrong , but then constantly being cast aside was so like infuriating to listen to and uh , I also kept waiting for like at the end , to for like the men that she saved during that time period to like pop up again , like when she was home at some point to give her some sort of like and she's not finding relief within like love and like the comfort of relationships , at least like knowing that , like what she was recognized by these people that she did save and like she did a good thing , but then that never really happened yeah , she got like the one at the end yeah , it just .
Speaker 2It was just heartbreaking like , yeah , I understand it and you needed it , but it just .
Speaker 1And that was real life . You know , the US is a big country , so it's not like you are going to run into people that you served and whether they'd recognize you too . It's so different .
Speaker 2Exactly .
Speaker 1Yeah , but one more thing about the guys is it was hard to like connect and to like root for one Because it was so like , and to like root for one because it was so like are they gonna stay around like ? I know we both we can get into it when we talk more about them , but we both had like hypotheses about who were actually still around , and so it was like I don't know if I should let go of this one and root for this one . I don't know . So it was yeah it was hard yeah um , but what about Frankie's journey ?
Speaker 2like hit you the hardest . Was it specifically Vietnam or when she came home ? Also , like which side of the story felt more emotional or shocking to
War Trauma vs. Coming Home
Speaker 2you ?
Speaker 1Well , it's hard to choose one , because they both , like you know , they were both so hard , they both had shocking elements to it . I think , for me , though , the war is something that like felt more emotional because it's something that I will hopefully never see , like I'll never be in war , that's not my calling . So I think , because it's something I'll never experience , by hearing about it and like reading , you know what their day-to-day life was like , and you know the horrors that they had to see and while they were still helping even quote-unquote the enemies , like going into those villages and helping where they can . I think that was , you know , really hard and I said this about the night nightingale too , but it just puts in perspective to like there's war going on right now , that people are doing that , so I I think that's just like hard Whereas on the other side , though , we've made so much movement and progress I will actually that's this all coming out of my butt .
Speaker 1I know nothing about veterans , but it seems like we've made more progress with , you know , veterans , and for our female veterans , I feel like you can see more stuff on this side versus on the side of war . Does that make sense ? Yeah , yeah . So I think that was more like shocking to see like how they like I know they see death and they see all this stuff , but it's , yeah , it's a lot . But it was also kind of like emotional to see like all the pawns they form and like the little clubs they make out there and stuff like that . But that was me . What about you ?
Speaker 2um , I definitely agree like both parts were really difficult to get through , but I think the aftermath of being at home was what hit me harder , and I think it's because almost like the war was really gruesome to read it and hard to read at times .
Speaker 2Um , but because Frankie was making that difference and I think because just even in society , like , we have so many things about war that almost , at least for me personally , become desensitized to seeing or hearing about a lot of that unfortunately versus the aftermath at home is something that you don't hear about very often , or like you get that experience and I think , because we have made such big strides to honor our troops now and I think I'm sure that this was like that stepping stone to like you know , okay , this was horrible how we treated these veterans coming home and like helped improve that for the future and into now for us um , but seeing like the opposite side , coming from a military family , like we have so many things to help honor and like help our troops when they're coming back not to say that it's perfect there's still a lot of things to improve but compared to this time period at least , it was really hard to hear about the struggles that she's going through and like all these veterans that were going through um , one that should be like the reprieve from all the horrors , especially for her as a woman too , like I think it just hit even harder yeah , especially during that time , because not like I'm sure it was not easy for the guys at all with the PTSD they went through .
Speaker 1But for Frankie not getting any sort of validation or anything from a single person besides those who were with her in the war , like not from her parents , not from a random person on the street , not from literally other veterans , like male veterans that were helped out by female nurses , exactly , yeah , it's like , even though no wonder she went crazy right , how could she not ?
Speaker 2and with those troops it's like you think , like they would band together to like , know , like okay , we're not getting the recognition we deserve , but at least we have each other , except for you , like , oh my gosh , that was , it's so hard to read . Yeah , that was definitely . I think the home part versus the home part really hit harder for me ?
Speaker 1yeah , I think too , because you have that connection , like military connection . It's like I'm sure you could put yourself or put like your dad in that space of like imagining if he had to go through like what they were going through at this time yeah , no , that was rough yeah , um , something that wasn't rough was the incredible bond that frankie made with barb and ethel .
Speaker 1That really just transcended their time at war . Each woman brought something different to the friendship . What do you think frankie needed most from barb and ethel and what do you think they needed from her ?
Speaker 2so I think I do , I love their , I love this bond and I think that they all brought something really important to each other .
Speaker 1Yeah , they were like the best part of the book .
Speaker 2Yes , completely agree , it's the women , the women . But I think Barb really helped teach Frankie how to be confident and push herself to be like the best version of herself and like know that even though you're scared , like you can still do incredible things , whereas ethel , I feel , is more of a comforting figure for frankie and kind of like a mother figure almost away from war or at war , and uh kind of helped her stay sane while surrounded by like so much horror . Um , it was kind of like a good cop back between the two of them . I feel , um , and I feel like frankie helped bring like a sense of innocence and morality back for the girls who had been at war for so long or before frankie showed up , um to like help remind them that like there are still good people and good things in the world um after seeing such atrocity that's so easy to lose that kind of hindsight in yeah what about you ?
Speaker 2what do you think ?
Speaker 1well , I think she definitely needed them to keep her moving when she didn't know how , um , they were just always there for her , which I think she was there for them too . That's just not , you know , written in that light . I think ethel was a big support system for her in the beginning of the war and helping to get her like acclimated and like helping to ease her into it . Um , coming from like like being able to see each other like , even though ethel grew up on a farm and stuff , they they both were still like , like they were both white and they both kind of understood in that time period , whereas Barb , I think , helped her grow so much and taught her about so many things very prideful of their country and of what their families have been able to do , and so I think barb really helped her to grow and not stay so innocent , but in a good way .
Speaker 1You know , you're so right . Yeah , so I think I feel like they touched on barb's relationship with her a little more than ethel's relationship . I feel like there was more like scenes of them together , um , but I do think , like you said too , ethel was also always there to bring that like comfort and nurturing side um to both of them and just being there , and then , I think , for Barb and Ethel . They also just needed that love and support from Frankie , just being there with them .
Speaker 2It was almost like Ethel was a mother figure versus Barb was a sister . I feel like the way that their relationships kind of because like Ethel was there as like comfort and like to help through things , but wasn't necessarily as close as barb and frankie were in that sisterhood and that bond that they truly like kind of grew more yeah , yeah , but their friendship was so powerful , like the friendship scenes made
Sisterhood in the Chaos
Speaker 2me cry , where , like that , those scenes made me tear up , more so than almost any other scenes were .
Speaker 1Like when they came to her and it was like they're here for her , I was like , oh , she needed them .
Speaker 2So those were good yeah , all right , okay , but now to talk about the boys . Uh , jb and rye were both important to Frankie in totally different ways . Uh , what were your initial feelings for each of the men and when they were first introduced , and how did they change as the story progressed ?
Speaker 1it's kind of funny because when I first met Rye , when they meet in like the house and he's like women can be heroes , I'm like okay , rye , like I like him . And then when we were reintroduced to him back in the war , I was like why is he back here ? I was like I like didn't love it and I really was never fully bought into their relationship . Um , especially because when I met Jamie for the first time in the book , when he was like hugging her , I was like okay , don't touch her . Like that , you're being kind of weird . Like I didn't fully trust him but really quickly flipped and grew to like love him and I always held on hope , like that was my big hypothesis . When he was gone , I was like he's not gone . I was like he's coming back . I was like , especially after reading the Nightingale , I was like he's coming back . So , but it did .
Speaker 1She introduced so many guys that it did throw me for a loop of like I didn't know who was endgame , but I was super hopeful that Jamie would be endgame . And for Rye , I was never like yeah , I don't know . And like I said in the beginning , I was like yes , but after Jamie had been introduced , I like really just pushed him to the side and could never like , like it just didn't feel right , like you know that gut feeling . And then I know this isn't in the question I never liked Henry , like I thought he was such a great friend but I don't necessarily think they needed that the relationship to be able to get across like what it was . You know , it definitely had another dimension , but he that was like the one too many . I was like we don't , we don't need this , yeah , yeah anyway what about you ?
Speaker 2um , no , I completely agree . Uh , I think that the two men and the way that they're written really showcase um kristin's like way with storytelling so beautifully . Um , because I feel like Jamie , the way that he was written in his relationship with Frankie .
Speaker 1I'm going off script , off my notes because yeah , yeah , go off script , go with your heart .
Speaker 2I took the time writing all this out , like no , we're just gonna go um , but uh , with Jamie she is like a you could I don't know , I could almost see through the facade , like when we first met him . Like you could tell like he was meant to be like the charmer , everything's good , whatever . But you could tell the way that she wrote him like that there were deeper feelings , it was softer , it was more intimate and like even his relationship with Frankie growing um through their friendship and like that love that they truly had , but Frankie refusing and pushing her in work too , like he
Speaker 2never . He never let his feelings of lust overtake his relationship of what he thought was best for Frankie , you know , and like he respected Frankie's like choices and decisions . I mean , obviously you knew it was hard on him but like he still was a great friend and , like you said , pushed her to be her best and to do these things and you could see just like the shared , like bond and like the sadness that he held to and how they were just like there to be like a soft comfort for each other , which was devastating . When he left , um , I definitely thought he was going to come back at some point too because of the rock um , tear , yeah , um , but then with rye , I liked him in the house , like you said , but I completely forgot about him until he was introduced again and when he was , I was like , oh , I don't like this yeah that is the writing , because the way that kristen wrote him was very intense and
Speaker 2very like he was all of a sudden latched onto Frankie and like almost possessive in a way . That really kind of foreshadowed that , seeing Frankie more as like an object to hold and a person to care for , and so I never like , I never like cried . I was like we don't like this . And when he did , frankie found out he died . I'm like he didn't , he's got to come back . And when he did , frankie found out he died . I'm like he didn't . He's going to come back . He was probably a POW , yeah .
Speaker 1He's coming back . I thought that too , but you , if you read on our fable , michaela , quickly thought onto the fact that he still had a wife . I did not think that at first . As we got closer I was like I like the thought . No , actually , I don't even think the thought crossed my mind until , like the plane scene . And then I was like you , little twerp , but you caught on to that . I knew he would come back , but I didn't know that he would come back with a wife it was just the way that he was so intent on the word engagement you know , I didn't even .
Speaker 1I didn't even like I promise I'm not engaged where there's no engagement kind of thing .
Speaker 2I was like , but what ? Hmm ? Well , what if there's a wife , though ? And then , yeah , on the plane scene , when he's like I have something to tell you , I was like , oh yeah , no , there's somebody , because she was talking about going home and starting a family together . You could tell he like he wasn't about that because he had one already . So , yeah , no , we did not like ride . No , not like rye .
Speaker 1No , uh , that was hard I mean , I'm sure he goes through his own stuff , but sure you can empathize .
Speaker 2You lying , cheating it's hard to get , and that's what kristin does .
Speaker 2So well is seeing the complexity of it , because in a way you can feel for rye and trying to find that comfort , that escape in such horror of it all and like , especially if you're with somebody who you don't necessarily love back home and then you find somebody you have an instant connection with . Like it's hard to like have those boundaries and and like you can understand , like especially after the war too , trying to find that comfort for all the trauma that he went through as a pow .
Speaker 1But you could still also hate him , yeah , yeah , and because it's like like I'm sure maybe he did like love his wife and loved Frankie , but it's like you made a commitment and you have to choose to love your what like . You have to choose that .
Speaker 2So , yeah , it was a bit muggy , yep , not a fan , not a fan , yeah , Okay , but do you think Frankie wanted recognition from the public or from the people closest to her more ? And what does it mean to be seen , and where did she find that ?
Speaker 1I think . Well , definitely from her family , but also from the public . I think she wanted both . I think Kristen mentions this in the very beginning of the book and I think we've seen this shift too , even now .
Speaker 1The Fourth of July used to be such a community holiday and everyone was just so for America , the USA loving Just having so much country pride which I'm not saying that was necessarily like great back then , but it was . I felt like it was a more unified country in some aspects . Again , there was definitely faults up in that regard . I think that's where she wanted that public's you know praise , um , or not even like praise , but just wanted the public to be like , yes , you served , and like we see that um , and of course , obviously with her dad , the wall of heroes . She wanted to make her dad proud , as we all do . I was . I was talking um , sorry , quick side note , but with my big work event , I was talking to my sister about how it's , like I hope , like dad says he's proud of me because you know , like you just and my dad did yeah many times um , but like you know , you just crave that parental approval too , um to know that like you raised me , like I'm doing the big things now .
Speaker 1So I think , definitely from her family and from the public , and I think she just wanted to know that those around her knew that she was doing something for the greater good , or at least what she thought was for the greater good , even though we learned that the war isn't what it seems . Um , I think to be seen is to be understood . I don't want to steal your point , but one of the words you wrote down , like I agree with , like you wrote to be seen as to be like validated , I agree , um , but just just , yeah , to be understood and to to just be like present for them too , because it was they were so dismissive of her and so to not even give her the time of day . It's to literally be seen . Give her the time of day , but I think she really gets this from Barb and Ethel , which I think that's hard when they're far away and you can't do everything together , whereas in the war they were together 24-7 . They didn't write letters too .
Speaker 1It's not even like now , where it's like yeah , I think she throughout the book she gets it a little bit from the intimate relationship she has with each of the men . But again , it's like not enough and and you can't put your happiness or your validation in another person . You have to be able to find it within yourself . Um so like , like being seen is great , but you also have to see yourself and like , know your own worth . And then , finally , at the end , her family . You know , when her dad sees the , the one guy come up to her , I was like , oh , that was another really good scene . Yes , but that's my long-winded answer . What are your thoughts on it ?
Speaker 2I agree , but , like you said , I think to be seen as being validated , whether it be in your thoughts , your appearance , your actions , and Frankie just craved validation , but I think she craved validation especially from her father .
Speaker 1Definitely .
Speaker 2I think growing up and seeing the hero's wall and being talked about constantly and seeing that's the way to get validation talked about constantly and seeing like that's the way to get validation from her father and then to go off and do the thing , come back and then still be like not even just ignored but like looked down upon because of it , when you thought that you were doing this for him , was just like really hard to hear about and I know that she just like all she wanted was to make him proud , but he was like too stubborn and self-righteous to accept that .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I think too , like like you can tell she's like daddy's girl or she wants to be , and it's like her dad almost like doesn't want her to be . Like he's putting her in a box . Like her mom is like let's go to the club , let in a box . Like her mom is like let's go to the club , let's do this , and she's like no , I want to , I want to be more like I want to be a nurse , and it like her dad isn't support , like isn't supporting that .
Speaker 2So that's gonna be so hard to just crave that support absolutely .
Speaker 2And like I know I like I'm glad she finally got that in the end from him . Like when the veteran at the um memorial service like uh , came up to her and like thanked her for what she did during the war , like to finally hit the dad . But I felt like by that point his character was just irredeemable for me because it was just like too late , like it took another man validating your daughter's service in order for you to validate your daughter's service . That just like I'm glad she finally got it , but it just but it just it didn't . It was too far , too little , too late for me for him . Um .
Speaker 2But I think that frankie also was just so caught up in living for everyone else within that that she didn't find the validation she craved until she could see her true self and accept who she was , that she wasn't like the daughter that her mom was trying to make her in these you know women , but then she's . Then she started to do the whole thing for her dad , but then that didn't work out and she's constantly just trying to live up to other people's expectations , so she was finally able to validate , like I did , this I'm proud of myself and all I accomplished .
Speaker 2I think that's when she found her peace and was able to like , validate herself in that way yeah , and she really was such like a , like a servant leader .
Speaker 1Um , like , I feel like those are the quality of hers and that was like her life's purpose , because she wanted to like serve in the war and then she finds peace when she's serving other women and helping them know , like that they've made a difference . So I think that was cool too . Yeah , just like realizing that , um , frankie and the other nurses served right in the middle of the war but were treated like they didn't exist when they got home . Why do you think that their stories were so easily ignored ? And do you think that kind of erase erasure did I say that right ?
Speaker 2um , still happens today um , I think the circumstances of the war were a huge part of how these women were ignored by society , because obviously all veterans , when they came home from this war , were treated horribly and society just wanted to erase their existence and like the thought of the war itself . But now you mix in the fold , like the women who served during that time where women's rights were just starting to kind of like rumble under the surface again and all the societal movements that happening at that time period . It made it almost like even more impossible for them to be heard and like thought about in that way . Um , and I think that we would be really naive to think that stories like this don't still happen today , especially in other parts of the world . But especially because , like you hear about in the book kristen writes about the media and how it easily , it's like manipulated until you truly only see , like certain aspects of it or the government holding back information about things .
Speaker 2And now , with the media having grown exponentially since then , um , their trustworthiness , I think , from that time period , has also decreased a lot , um which I'm sure there are many stories that have yet to be like , heard , that are still in the making . From that that we just don't get , unfortunately , but hopefully we will get to hear yeah , I , I agree with you .
Speaker 1I think part of it , like you said , was due to , like the time and the fact that women had less rights . Um , they also were the minority in the war , so I think it was easier to like quiet them and just they were just overpowered by the masses . Um , I think it unfortunately definitely happens today , but I also don't think it's with malicious intent . Like , sometimes I think people are just so selfishly minded . You know , we're all living in our own world and for ourselves . So I don't think a lot of the guys in the wars meant to make those women feel bad . Rather , they were , like you know , only thinking of themselves , which I'm not saying is OK , but I don't think they just needed to learn .
Speaker 2Like they just didn't know .
Speaker 1You know , and I think today there's so much content and so many bad things in the world that it's not like they're trying to erase it that things aren't happening , but it's rather they're covering so many bad things that are happening that it's like you can't keep up with it all . Yeah , so I think that is something big that happens now too .
Speaker 2And also , too , it's almost like from the other side of that . With so many things happening , you kind of become numb and you just stop paying attention because there's always something bad going on , that you're not even paying attention to the bad things anymore because you're just trying to get through life , which then doesn't help those stories be heard either . Yeah , yeah , and that's a great point uh , tough .
Speaker 1And it is tough because , like it is happening today , yeah , no , I think it's it .
Speaker 2Is it the part about this book being so so much closer in history than the other one ? Um , and the fact that we know that things like this are so ?
Speaker 2yeah , there's just like injustice everywhere yeah , I just it gives you such an unsettling feeling leaving this book , um , but I think that was kind of the point . So , yeah , um , all right . Well , we're skipping the question that we typically have here towards the end of our discussion of would you read another book by this author , because the answer is obviously yes . We've read one before and I'm sure we will continue to , but to to replace it with something new . I'm curious what scene
Complex Relationships and Recognition
Speaker 2stuck with you the most in this book , like what was the one that you couldn't stop thinking about later ?
Speaker 1Well , jamie's scene with the departure from war , his helicopter scene , because I think it was the first time that she came face-to-face with the realities of losing someone in war . Obviously she lost Finley , but I but I mean , like in serving in the war , and this seems like it was the first guy that maybe she even had these feelings for , because , um , you know , she was a virgin and she just never pursued that prior to the war . So I think that that was just like , so the grief she felt was so big there . And then another scene is that , even though her parents had faults and didn't understand Frankie , the scene of them rescuing her from the ocean was a big one for me .
Speaker 1And I know you said that her father couldn't be redeemed in your eyes , but I think he was like he was redeemed for me , um , just because he couldn't validate her war experience again , I don't think it was like malicious , it's just like he didn't know which . Again , it doesn't make it okay , but just like it took him longer to learn and you can tell like because this happens before he you know they go to the memorial and it's like he clearly has so much love for her . He just is , he's , he's too stubborn enough to adjust with the change of the times and to give her the time of day , which , again isn't I'm not saying is right , but I think it's just taking him longer to learn Right . And she I mean Frankie herself doesn't even know how to portray it because she's going through her own things . So it's like they're all just like , it's just like life . Everyone is going through their own dark things , and so I'm .
Speaker 2I just give them a lot of grace yeah , yeah , that's like and that's the beauty of kristen's writing with these characters is she does create such complex characters that have such different facets to them , that can be interpreted differently and have different feelings on it . But then it's like you can feel for one thing , it doesn't make anything right that they did before , or vice versa they can be a good person and still have like bad things that they've done , or like yeah , you shouldn't have done kind of thing too exactly what are your ?
Speaker 1what scenes stick out to you ?
Speaker 2I had two on opposite ends of the spectrum . Um , the first one were well , technically there are two , but they're kind of combined into the one uh , one breaking into the va for help twice and was turned away oh yeah , that made me so angry I was fuming , I was furious , I was so mad because she clearly like she , went the first time trying to get help and they didn't even recognize her as a veteran to begin with . They just thought she was on her period , whatever , yeah I was like , oh my gosh , how invalidating and just infuriating for her .
Speaker 2That was absolutely insane , because when I'm reading about her struggles up until that point I'm like , oh , I wonder . When the va came into play , like I'm sure she can find help there , she goes there and it's completely shot down . Oh , I was so mad that first time yeah second time .
Speaker 2It happened because , after going through everything that she went through and clearly knowing she needed the help and like was desperate for that help , she went again and was like , even more like sassy , standing her ground and like , no , like I served and like was able to like pull out receipts of it and was still turned away because her service was not as serious as other men's service .
Speaker 1Yeah , I wanted to punch a wall , I know , yeah , that didn't make me sad , it just made me mad .
Speaker 2Yeah , I was so , so , so , mad um . But then , on the opposite side of the spectrum of that one , I thought I could make it through this book without crying . I was like , maybe this ?
Speaker 2how naive of you , I know , because I did . I made it to the very , very end and I was like , I don't get me wrong , I was getting emotional , but not to the point where I'm like crying again . Um , but I should have remembered when it came for the nightingale and before it came for this one too was at the very , very end . Um , when jamie handed her the rock that she had given him when he was unconscious being taken to the hospital , it said what was it you fight with that kind of thing ? Oh , at that point I lost it .
Speaker 2Yeah I just full-on , sobbed um , and I don't even I can't explain really why . I think maybe it's just like it's a full circle moment for the way that frankie fought while home and by being given the rock it kind of symbolized that like her fight was over , yeah , and that peace . And it kind of symbolized that like her fight was over , yeah , and that peace . And it just kind of released all the emotions that had been trapped in me throughout this whole book , I think , and like , obviously it was emotional for like finding , I hope , happiness with Jamie , even if it's as a friend and not even as a romantic relationship , because we really don't know .
Speaker 1It's romance . He's divorced . They're going to live happily ever after .
Speaker 2But we don't know now . We know because she's also really happy . But no , I really hope she did she would not have put the word divorce in there if she didn't want us to assume you're right , you're right , uh , but yeah , it was like I'm happy she found that , but it was truly just like the like full circle and like the you fight and now her fight was like over , yeah , um yeah , that's got to be crazy though , too .
Speaker 1Just the thought of , like , if you mourn someone and they come back from the dead like that's not something you do , like , I can't even like . What a concept .
Speaker 2That's crazy like yeah , yeah , so let's hear . You hit me at the buzzer . That was a wild one . Um , all right , but what were your final thoughts ? And star ?
Speaker 1ratings here five star , obviously . Um , I do think I liked the nightingale better , um , but that doesn't take away from like the astounding writing that was written here . But I cried so much more in the nightingale um , and I think it's because I connected with like every single character , um , even like the side characters , whereas this one , like I said , like some of the characters , like the relationships were just you couldn't really connect with right on a deeper level . Um , but it was still good . Again , it makes me feel twisted on the inside and just ignorant to the current wars so that are like happening now that I want to somehow help with or delve into um , and it also makes me , if they're still alive , um , I want to meet some like vietnam war veterans and like ask them about their stories , especially , um , you know ,
Final Thoughts and Summer Return
Speaker 1kristen and her author's note said that it was so hard to find women , um , and to find , like literally to find the history of the women that served in Vietnam , so that writing this was really difficult , so it would just be really interesting to talk to them . And also , like that , when I had just talked about like , what was that like when people came back from the dead , like was it .
Speaker 1Was it sad because of the sadness that you had felt for so long ? Was it like relief ? I'm sure it was probably all the emotion . So I don't know . Maybe we will go serve in some nursing homes or something that could be fun . Maybe I'll go find like a VA around here and donate brownies or something . I don't know , something I think could be fun . I'd be down to do that , yeah . What are your thoughts ?
Speaker 2um five stars too easy easy .
Speaker 2I do agree with you , though I think the nightingale is still my favorite out of the two . Um , it just hit me on a different level , but I think it's because , again , the way it was written by Kristen and like the way that she wanted you to feel while reading it . I think it's because , again , the way it was written by Kristen and like the way that she wanted you to feel while reading it . I think with the nine gill is more of like this truly poetic kind of story that was more fluid versus this one was meant to make you feel unsettled and unrest , like it sparked the justice yeah anxiety of it all and like the fast pace .
Speaker 2It didn't give you the time to connect with the characters because that's kind of like the war she was in . It's just like this constant , like people coming in and out . So I think it was intentional , but which I can appreciate , why it was five stars for me . But I do agree . Yeah , the Nightingale just hit a little bit harder , but it did give me an entirely new perspective on this history . That I'm so grateful for , and I cannot wait to read more of her works because they're just so good .
Speaker 1Yeah , I agree , I agree . Oh , that was the women . Yeah .
Speaker 2So good , great way to wrap up Women's History Month .
Speaker 1I know I love that Before we get into Burrows and Returns , we will not be having a book club book again for the next two months . Um , but still follow us on fable because , who knows , we're we're both going to keep reading within these next two months . We're just not necessarily chatting about it on the pod , but maybe we'll throw one on fable and we can still do , we can still share our thoughts just virtually in writing . So go check us out there .
Speaker 2You can also always find us on goodreads too . Um , our have our bios linked in our instagram so you can easily find us on there and keep up with what we're reading individually until we come back for our book club yeah , speaking of what we're reading borrows and returns , let's get into um um , uh , I can go first , because I have nothing um , you're reading wedding manuals , wedding contracts .
Speaker 1That's the better , yeah yep , all of that .
Speaker 2My only return was the women . I haven't started anything , probably won't until we pick back up our book club , uh , after the wedding , just because life is a little crazy . So that's okay . What are you reading ?
Speaker 1I'm still finding some room to get some books in . I did an audiobook it was first time caller by bk borison . Um , so I'd never read from this author before , but I gave it four stars . It was just a cute little romance book . Um , the audio like voice actors were not cringy , they were . They're pretty good . Um , there wasn't too many like spicy scenes and I honestly like skipped through them , um , but it was just . It was good . I liked the concept . I liked the characters .
Speaker 2It's so funny because after our last podcast , when you said that this was in your boroughs , uh , all of a sudden you start popping up oh really , social media and people like raving about the book . So I was curious .
Speaker 1Yeah I did like it , it was good . And then borrows . I'm finally I know it's been out for like a hot set well , it really hasn't been out for long , but in the book world I feel like it's been out for a while finally reading onyx storm by rebecca yarrow . So I've seen mixed reviews , so I'm trying to , like , take it with a grain of salt . I sometimes , when I read reviews that are like bad , I feel like I sometimes just like cling to them . I don't know why . So I'm trying to take it with a grain of salt , because her other two books were , um , really phenomenal . So I'm sure that this one's still gonna be good for writing too . Whether she's gonna make me feel some type of way or not , we'll see . But that's what I'll be reading , so you can keep up with my thoughts on that on Goodreads . And then I'm not sure what I'll read after that .
Speaker 1I think actually in April some new books come out that I'm wanting to read , like I think in the Powerless series . I think that new book comes out in April . I think Emily Henry's new book comes out in April . So those will be some that I pick up . Um , but yeah , it's so funny because by the end of last year I was reading so many books a month and now I'm like , okay , I just squeezed in two . So second half is our year .
Speaker 2Second half we'll .
Speaker 1We'll have our nose in a book , but right now we have our nose in work and wedding , so but thanks for hanging out with us listening . I would love to hear your thoughts if you are a listener . I know we have a lot of listeners who actually don't reside in the US , so if you have any thoughts on any like American wars with other countries , I would be so intrigued to hear like what your thoughts were , absolutely .
Speaker 1A different perspective , yeah , or just I don't know . Yeah , I just want to hear your thoughts in general . Please talk to us .
Speaker 2We'll be up on our people for a little while , so feel free to go and leave your thoughts for us to read and discuss as well , definitely , but thanks for joining us , guys , and we'll be back soon .
Speaker 1See you in the summer . Bye well , dear listeners , we find ourselves at the end of another episode and remember the lazy girl library is not just a podcast , it's a community . We absolutely love hearing from fellow book lovers , so don't forget to share your thoughts and your favorite reads with us on our social media . You can find us on Instagram at Lazy Girl Library . Make sure to check out our website , lazygirllibrarycom , your one-stop shop for all things Lazy Girl . Before we go , we want to take a moment to thank all of our wonderful listeners , whether you're listening from your cozy bed , on your way to work or anywhere in between . Thank you for making us a part of your day and for being a part of our Lazy Girl family . So keep those pages turning , keep those imaginations flourishing and remember the best stories are yet to be discovered . Until next time , stay lazy and happy reading .
