Canadian Salad
A No-Nonsense Podcast On Culture And Immigration
Canadian Salad
Becoming the Man I Am
This week, Andrea and Hostion sit down with Ulysses — writer, community-builder, trans man, and beloved ballroom family member — for a heartfelt conversation about masculinity.
Together they unpack how culture, race, gender, queer community, and lived experience shape what it means to be a man today. From performance to pressure, safety to softness, and tradition to transformation, this episode explores masculinity through honesty, humour, and humanity.
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I like salmon. Do you like salmon?
SPEAKER_04:Welcome to Canadian Samalin, a fun, factual, and friendly podcast about culture and integration in Canada.
SPEAKER_03:I'm one of your hosts, I'm Ho Chen Hummel from China, currently living in unceded territory of Muscovim Swamin Chester Want to Nations.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm Andrea McCoy, an immigrant from the United States, broadcasting you from the unceded traditional territory of the McClungan people, the song is in Final First Nations. And you're listening to Welcome back, everyone. That's right. Welcome back. I'm sure everyone missed us. I know I missed you. Did you miss me?
SPEAKER_02:I miss you too. And I also miss having other people on the podcast.
SPEAKER_04:You do? Well, we're in luck because today we have a new person on the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Surprise.
SPEAKER_04:I you didn't know. Even though you know them pretty well, and I don't, but welcome. Surprise. Yeah, we have a guest.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Oh my god. Today, this guest, I have the definitely the luxury, the privilege, the honor to have him on this podcast. He is a very important person in my life in many spaces. We share a lot of things together. We do a lot of things together. And we grow very close to each other in many capacities. Um, he's definitely someone to look up to, the very talented, the one and only Ulysses. Let's clap.
SPEAKER_04:We're clapping, but people can't hear it. So, but we are clapping. Yes. Welcome, Ulysses. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me. I could feel the clapping if that makes no sense.
SPEAKER_04:Yay!
SPEAKER_00:I was like, whoa.
SPEAKER_04:I'm gonna put in a little clap sound. I could do that. I can do that.
SPEAKER_02:But anyway, this is Ulysses from Ballroom. In some sense, he is my kid, my ballroom kid.
SPEAKER_04:Um, real quick, little plug. If you're unfamiliar with ballroom or ballroom culture, season two, we do an episode talking about all of it. So y'all go check it out. That's my plug. Sorry, you can continue.
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, we know each other for quite a while now. And then we, because of borroom, we got very close to each other. We do a lot of we compete together, even we do the same category. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, hello. I am Ulysses. Recently updated my name, so everyone's still adjusting to it. Um I might temptation is always to tell people my age. I'm gonna skip that part.
SPEAKER_04:Allowed, allowed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh, I guess I'm a writer and also like a community builder, a project manager, and yeah, I've been in Canada for two years now, so can officially say I'm part of the Canadian salad. I'm from Zimbabwe, have lived all over the place, including the States and the UK. And I am also a person of transgender experience, as they make me write down in every job application I have been over the past two months. Yeah, didn't know that was how you said it. But yeah, I'm a trans man as well, and that's a pretty important part of my lived experience, as you can imagine.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you both for that introduction. Yes, and Bo has lived everywhere. I know oh sorry, Ulysses had live everywhere. I'm gonna call you Amor because that's your borough name. You know, that's I think it's easier for yeah, it's okay. Yeah, yeah, Amor is his boredom name, and also as another name that I'm familiar with.
SPEAKER_00:You should also give your listeners the context of like you just like 15 minutes ago learned that I changed my name.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, that's the context because I've I've been calling Ulysses Bo for the past year, and now I just learned that um Bo uh Ulysses updated um his name to Ulysses, but his born name is still Amor, so I'm gonna call you Amor or Ulysses and this episode. We are here actually want to discuss um this idea of masculinity. I want to call this episode reclaiming masculinity because first, I don't think like all three of us here, I would say we are not like the most typical masculine person. Even Ulysses and me use uh he pronouns as well. But I think that the idea of masculinity is very different in a very traditional sense, conventional sense to now, the special both of us are queer. Um, but just for the sake of the topic, I'm gonna um explain what masculinity, the definition of it, means, at least according to uh Miriam Webster. So masculinity in definition is the quality or nature of the male sex, the quality, the state or degree of being masculine or manly. It basically doesn't explain anything.
SPEAKER_04:Oh you hear that and you're like, what does that what did it even just say, Miriam? Come on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the state of the state of being a man.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know what that means, right? Which goes to show, yeah, it's very limited. Anyway, our systems are have created very limited and narrow parameters for people and for gender identity.
SPEAKER_02:But anyway, I think so. I think so. I agree. Growing up, I think every country every culture has a different idea of masculinity. I believe like UBC's in your growing up, probably your father, your brothers, your male friends have probably show you different ways of masculinity. I think my upbringing also showed me different ways of masculinity growing up. Um but on your growing up, especially as you mentioned that you are trans man, when you like reflect on your transition, how has your understanding of masculinity like evolved like before and after? And what parts of masculinity do you feel that you need to unlearn? Uh and what part do you can consciously choose to rebuild for yourself?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's um I think it's like a really interesting question, the like before and after understanding. I think for me the biggest change has been before I transitioned, I used to understand masculinity as something that's very like innate and inherent, and not in the way that like it was something that belonged just to the male sex, but just that people could feel that they were masculine and that was it. Um, so I for a long time before I transitioned was someone who wore short skirts and like tight tops and was very girly in a lot of like very traditional ways, was someone who would walk down the street and you would look at me and say, That is a woman, like undeniably. But during that period of time, I also still identified as a masculine person. Uh so I had would have conversations with people who I was dating, for example, and say, I'm just a masculine person. And they would say, Absolutely not, because there was nothing, there were no physical attributes that were suggesting that I was masculine. And there was no, I guess, also like characteristics that would suggest that I was masculine. I was a very direct person, but I wasn't dominant about the need to control a room. Like I shouldn't you know me very well. I'm very comfortable with just like sitting and listening. Um and so there were no clear indicators of masculinity, but I still understood that like I was a masculine person, and that wasn't something that needed the affirmation of anyone else to make it clear. Um since transition here and since embodying masculinity in a more active way, I think I've come to understand masculinity as something that is both like performed and relational, right? So masculinity is something that I as a trans man, and particularly in spaces that aren't queer or trans affirming, have to like perform for people.
SPEAKER_04:Almost like you have to prove or convince.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Like a safety thing as well, right? Like sure, I'll take this, for example, my current workplace, which is like a lovely space. I've just started a job, but I'm I'm not having vetted everyone yet. I'm not quite ready to come out with the like I'm trans news. So when I'm there, my voice is always I speak in a certain tone just to hide any sort of like gender variance. Um, I walk in a very specific way, I dress in a very specific way as well. Always muted colors, always this is my work outfit, always something that suggests a broadness to my body that isn't there. I'm quite a narrow person, but I'm like, let's put on a bigger sweater so people don't see like my physique in the same way. Um yeah, and I'll like, yeah, I'll just like I'll also interact with men and women in different ways as well. I'm a lot more like comfortable with the women with men, I'm like, we're doing them. Yeah, okay, cool.
SPEAKER_04:Let's talk about sports, bruh. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, yeah. So exhausting. With Uber drivers. Oh my gosh, this one time I got in an Uber and because I'm Zimbabwean, this guy is like from India and he's asking me about my favorite cricket players. And I was there like googling in the back. Yeah, I like this guy.
SPEAKER_04:Just like off, they're like yeah, they did great last year.
SPEAKER_00:Literally, literally sky find myself in so many tediously boring conversations in order to like perform split in. Um and I think also the performance part of it is what makes me realize it's also relational, right? Like my masculinity is something that you see proven in the way that people talk to me and interact with me. I found recently, especially since I've been presenting more masculinely, if I'm in a restaurant with a girlfriend, I will be turned to fast before like the order is taken. Um I'm walking into a phone shop once with my friend Dehome, and similar thing, this man came straight to me, even though she before I'm getting the phone. It's just there's all these little signifiers of like masculinity that are proven by the way people talk to you, interact with you, and it's like very subtle as well. Um, so we're all kind of constantly constructing masculinity together and assigning it to people in how we treat them, and as well as claiming it for ourselves, but it's not something that's like just an individual's, it's not yeah, something that just an individual can do on their own. It requires to approve of it and also to give them these little masculinity tokens. Like, oh, here's you, here's the more, here's the more. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:A presentation, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Also, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Is there anything that you think you have to unlearn though? Like from when you like, I don't know, maybe pre-transition, like the idea of masculinity that now you feel like now that you after transition, you have to unlearn it.
SPEAKER_00:Hmm, that's a really good question. I I think that's a tough one. I didn't I didn't think a lot about masculinity before I transitioned, honestly. It wasn't something that was like consciously on my mind. And I think I'm slowly discovering things that I have to unlearn as I continue to transition. Um I'm yeah, things that I have to unlearn. Yeah, I think like those things are slowly revealing themselves to me slowly. Um I think that there are a lot of things about masculinity that I thought were very positive and that I picked up from like family members that I'm learning isn't positive. So I'm someone who, for example, often thinks I know what's best for other people. Um very patriarchal country in which like the patriarch is truly the patriarch. He like runs not only the nuclear family but the extended family as well. And I grew up watching men in power make decisions for the people who they were looking after. Um and that's something that I do. Yeah, the breadwinner, the breadwinner decides what school you go to, what you study, where you live, all these things. And that's something that I've picked up. I'm not a breadwinner for anyone, but like I picked it up for my friends as well, just deciding what's best for them, deciding what they need. And that's something that I'm definitely having to unlearn as well, in terms of you know, robbing people of their autonomy, essentially, and yeah, taking it on for myself.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I would imagine it it sounds like in some ways there is a redefinition of masculinity in the process of like understanding because we've heard and understood toxic masculinity, right? We know what that embodies. And then there's obviously other ways that we're being shown like men cry, right? Like that's something that is so it just sounds like whether either pre or post, I guess if you want to look at it that way, I think no matter where where you've been, it sounds like in in many ways redefining it or maybe reclaiming it has always been maybe a part of the relationship with masculinity. I don't know if that if I'm making any sense, but that's just me kind of just thinking about what you just said, because there were present presentations of what masculinity was, but even then that was not the fullest that you felt it could be or maybe um could be embodied as you've navigated in your journey. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I can echo to that a little bit. I feel like as an Asian man, I think moving out of Asia to a Western country, I feel like I constantly have to be challenged in this Western standard of what a wheel man is, and I constantly feel not many enough in this kind of Western society. Even though I think I present, you know, how I present to the world, like I I have facial hair, I don't think I physically look anything feminine, but maybe because the way I talk, um, or just maybe smaller build, I don't know. Just I actually don't know. But oftentimes people always think that I'm not a real man or not many enough, and my masculinity often has to be challenged. Um so like this expectation of men or me being a man or masculinity, have always shift or give like maybe doubt my identity, whether I'm many enough or shaped how how I see like even between even within race, how masculinity, how it's different between race. And then it definitely have give give me a very difficult relationship of how I feel about my men, my masculinity within myself, and and it's always a challenge or a battle, I guess that would be a better way to say it. Um and I also want to put that question to you, Ulysses, that whether this kind of I assume you also sometimes feel the weight of expectations of to behave or or present this manhood, whether this kind of expectation have shaped any way of your understanding of your masculinity or like who you want to be, I guess, like how you want to present um as men in this world.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think um I like to think of myself as being haunted by masculinity. Uh in the sense haunted. I know exactly what like the idealized uh masculine version of myself is. I know what he looks like, I know like how often I go to the gym, what sort of training I have to do, what I need to eat, how I need to talk, dress, who I need to date, what job I need to have in order to be like the most perfect masculine version of myself. That has been like presented to me like a million times over. And yeah, I think you're correct, like that does encompass like specifically like the ideals of an idealized version of a black man, right? Because masculinity is very racial in violence. Um and one thing I really struggle with is resisting that and like always checking with myself, like, okay, do I want to be bulkier because that's what I want for my body and that's what I feel like feels good, or do I want to be bulkier because I know that like people outside of my community will treat me better if I was more masculine. And there's like a and I think neither of those things is like wrong if I were to pursue that idealized version of myself just so people would treat me nicer. That's totally valid, and it's amazing that I would get that. But yeah, I think that's for me one of the reasons it's really important to have spaces where I can put down my masculine mask and just be like, okay, this is what it feels like to be safe, and that's it to be safe in myself, and that's what it feels like to be safe outside. So yeah, I definitely feel the pressure to be more masculine, the pressure to present in a certain way, the pressure to have a certain body. Um, I know all the things that I would gave that, and they would be awesome, they would be so great, I would have such a good time, but also I'm having a really good time just feeling safe in myself despite the world wants for me as well. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um just what's the one thing, like in at least in boring spaces, like when the house gets together, Ulysses always shows a lot of different ways, different sides of himself. That's all that people are happy of who they are and just be at ease with who they are, how to present. I think the environment itself is always making me feel very good and relaxed and comfortable of being myself as well. So I think that kind of feeling is contagious, that it being space that you just feel that you can be yourself, whatever version of yourself you want to present. Yeah. So I also just want to say thank you. You know, you see, you know, because you also make me feel that way too when you being that part of you. Yeah. I'm glad.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. And I I know Hoshan and I have talked before about how identity is never static. Who we are uh is always changing, evolving, adjusting, learning, uh, unlearning, um, shifting. And so I think that that's one safety net that I even find. Because so I've been my my brother's queer, and I've been to like I went to a summer solstice party one time, and I just remember the culture there was just so authentic. Like straight culture is just so just hey, how's it how's the weather? Performative, it really yeah, and it's really hard to get authentic. But then when you've had to navigate a world that causes you to be inauthentic because of the systems or the identities that it's created for you, to be in those spaces where people are like authentically themselves, where within two sentences a person is literally crying in front of me. And I'm thinking, I'm I feel so honored for you to like share your vulnerable heart. But it just felt so inclusive and I like you didn't have to try. And I'm just wondering for you, Ulysses, have you found that within maybe in ballroom spaces, like ballroom culture? Because we've talked about it, or even the queer and trans care. Communities, those cultures, have you found that there is more of a rest when you are within those communities as opposed to like straight cis communities or cultures?
SPEAKER_02:Or could just go to public, like an Apple store.
SPEAKER_04:Totally. A gas station. Um just the library. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's so funny. Yeah, I think yes, and like also more and more in a refined way. I remember when I first came out as like a teenager and this was just like being like bisexual.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I used to see straight people and turn to my friends and be like, do you think they're happy? Do you think they're like capable? Because for me, straightness was what I associated with like repression, which of course isn't the same for everyone. Um but yeah, as I've got older, I think there are definitely like element or segments of queer communities that are still also quite like withholding, especially when it comes to gender and transness. I think a lot of queer people are still afraid of the consequences of exploring gender and just deviating from gender norms, even as they deviate from like sexual norms. And so I think there's like layers of that. There's like the general queer population, like, yes, I feel rest, but also I'm conscious of being judged for not always conforming to their version of an idealized trans man, right? Because there's ideal man, there's ideal trans man. And then spaces like the space where that Hoshin and I share, where yeah, I can I feel totally relaxed and I can put on a wig and not feel judged, and put on a sports star and prance around and put on some fake boobs and just be like, Yeah, I feel great. This is totally affirmed in this space. Yeah, my ex and I used to joke about like the concept of dropping your gender, which is when you're getting to know someone relaxing, and then you do something that almost like deviates from this idealized version of a trans man, and you kind of see it flash across their face, and you realize then that you've dropped your gender and you need to like scatter and pick up your gender before anyone like realizes that you're like not this perfect trans man. And I think there's definitely queer spaces where I feel like that, where I'm like, I have to be hyper aware of not deviating too much from like what it means to be a trans man, um, what it means to be masculine as well, in order to be validated. But yeah, there's spaces where that authenticity is just found. And I think like our ballroom house as well is super inclusive of trans people, and a lot of the cis people we have there as well are also super comfortable with deviating from gender, and yeah, and it's all authentic space for sure.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, and then actually I have another question that like you just mentioned about sometimes like you even in queer space, maybe you have to be really aware of not deviating too much from your own gender, but just maybe to be safe or to be validated, and even though sometimes maybe you just want to drop it, but the environment not always aware and not allows you to do so, so you always have to feel like you have to embody this masculinity, and I think it can both like very emotional and physical, um draining, I think, uh for me at least. But then I think being in latest house give you this space to be able to drop a gender. Have these spaces ever influenced how you define yourself with the man today?
SPEAKER_00:Um, you do you mean the spaces in which I can drop my gender?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Like being able to drop your gender, not always of the embodied as masculinity has. Do you think these kind of chances or these spaces help you to influence or redefine or reclaiming masculinity for yourself?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. I think like one of the reasons I am able to resist completely conforming to masculinity in other public spaces is because I have this space, safe space where I am affirmed no matter what. Yeah, there's room to like yeah, I think yeah, there's this concept. I think it's like a polyamorous concept of people are either like one of two things for you. They're either like a safe space or a safe haven. Um, a safe space is someone who provides an environment for you where you can be secure and nurtured and go out into the world and explore and have an adventure. And a safe haven, I might be getting this wrong, but I hope I'm getting it right.
SPEAKER_04:We can edit, it's okay.
SPEAKER_00:You might have to Google it. Um a safe haven is someone who just like after you've come back from like your wild adventures, is like a place where you can like rest and feel secure and be comforted. And sometimes each partner is one of the other, sometimes both partners are both. And I feel like community, a good community, provides both for you, right? So this is a space where like I can be there and feel comforted and safe when things have gone wrong in the outside world, haven't been affirmed, or something has happened that has made me doubt myself, but it's also a space that refills my cup, and so I can go outside and be like, you know what? I'm gonna wear the shortest shorts to the gym. I'm gonna have my little booty out and then be talking and I don't care. Oh it's ridiculous. But yeah, yeah, providing both the safe space and the safe havens is what I think I get there. And so it does give me the safety I need. I think that's what it is ultimately, right? The emotion I need to be able to mold masculinity to whatever I see fit and to that out into the world with me. And whenever I get knocked down, come back and be like, okay, where were we at? This is what it looks like, and go out again. I always think of Savoy dropping me off at a Muay Thai class once, and me stepping out the car and being like, I wear really short shorts to Muay Thai. And he was like, You really do. And I was like, Yeah, and it just felt great. I was like, you know what? These are ridiculously short shorts to be going to martial arts right now, but I just have the most nourishing afternoon, and people can look at me however they want, and I'm gonna feel absolutely so yeah, I think that sense of safety and nourishment is really important.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I loved how you distinguished like the safe space and the safe haven because I can only imagine just already the world is exhausting just because of the systems that we've created. And so just having that rest in that place, it's really important. I have a question, Ulysses. So, who or what has taught you the most about the kind of man you want to be? Are there role models, trans or cisgendered who helped you reimagine masculinity in a healthier, more expansive way?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, this is the first person who comes to mind is my father, which is a complicated answer. Um we have a very complicated relationship.
SPEAKER_02:I think I think we all do. I have. Yeah, we all do. I think Andrea, too.
SPEAKER_04:So all of us a Trumper, we don't talk, so it's yeah, anyway. There's some level of distance, yeah, for all of us. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, I think he's someone who I'm currently figuring out the bits that I want to hold on to and the bits that I want to unlearn. The one thing about my father that I think is really important to my understanding of masculinity and perhaps holds me back in some ways as well. But we'll also figure out um is his generosity. Um he is hands down the most generous man I know. If he has it, he will give it out. And I think that like look after you, he will make sure that you have yeah, he's he's just like always yeah, always been the most generous person I've known, looks after so many people, and that's something that I try to embody this kind of like giving without expecting anything back. It's a very community-oriented way of doing things, and yeah, for me, it's I think generosity for me is the most masculine trait. I think even when I look at the men I'm attracted to, they're all very generous. That sounds you know, I too. You mean sugar daddy? It's not one way, it's both ways. It's the way.
SPEAKER_04:Oh Shen.
SPEAKER_00:Bye bye. But also take applications anyway. Yeah, generosity for me is like the most masculine trait. And so I think I I take that from my father for sure, in terms of ideal forms of masculinity. And he's also very stoic, which I think is always a super complicated one. But I think that the way he handles conflict, that being like mostly calm and not imposing his emotions on people is something that I've always seen as very masculine. I think that one probably needs some more analysis and therapy.
SPEAKER_04:Yay, therapy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, yeah, so my father would be first. The second would be Thomas Sankara. He was, I think, Burkina Faso's first president, or maybe like second, if there was like one before him, and then the coup happened. Brilliant, like socialist, yeah, just like agrarian socialist feminist president, uh always was really cute red berry, just like truly man. I was obsessed with him when I was like pretty sexy. Oh yeah, let's bring back a red berry. Let's bring them back. But yeah, I think he had excellent politics, and I also think I love the way he lived his life as well. I think he owned like a beat-up car and two broken guitars and like a really bad fridge. And he was just like very humble, and like I don't know, he just yeah, I think humility, even when you have a lot of power, is a very idealized masculine trait for me. I try and stay humble. I don't know if I always succeed.
SPEAKER_02:I think knowing that or questioning that's already a trait of being humble.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yes. Yeah, I think humility is a very important mastery. And third category would be like, yeah, I think since I've transitioned, I've dated a lot more trans men. There was one period of time where I was like only dating trans men. Do I still difficult to say that up until this summer, I think like it had been like two years of like only dating trans men, and I felt like every time I dated a trans man, I was given the space to really yeah, just expand into myself in a space where you know the everything was completely unscripted, right? I think often when you enter relationships, there's like a pre-scripted thing like this person opens the door, this person pays on the first date, this person hierarchy, yeah. Yeah, there's all these little rules, and when it's two people who've already deconstructed their gender entering a gay relationship, right? Like so it's just like open-ended. And so that taught me a lot about myself and my masculinity. Um, and so each one of those men like gave me an opportunity to yeah, just really see myself and like, and also see who I could be as well, even at things as subtle as when I was getting top surgery, just being like, Well, I've seen all these chests and like now I can decide what type of chest I want because I've been in proximity with all these beautiful chests, and I get to pick, and yeah, like and like the type of surgery I had was in direct relation to like someone who I dated and been like, wow, your chest is fantastic. I want this chest, which is not something I could have done if I hadn't been dating other trans. But I think it's very important for trans people to date other trans people for that reason. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, I think I think it seems like you are at a place right now that you have, I guess, a um more compassionate maybe idea of masculinity with yourself. Would that be a correct statement?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. In a lot of ways, yes. I think I'm also currently navigating for the first time, being like entering spaces where people don't know I'm trans. And I think, yeah, that has been that has allowed me to relax in some ways. Has required me to really recognize or to really start thinking more critically about how I want to navigate being a man. Um, I think like one example is like, yeah, I do martial arts, and it's like very gendered for lots of reasons.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, very gendered, like yeah, martial arts.
SPEAKER_04:I'm in I'm in jujitsu, so I totally get it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You two, you two are more masculine than me in that way. I have never done that.
SPEAKER_04:We got bruises, I'm sure, Ulysses. You and me, we could like add up our bruises.
SPEAKER_02:We have not done martial arts. You guys have way more masks than me. You're welcome, Hoshi.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we are you just wait. Let's go.
SPEAKER_04:Let's do it. New Year's resolution 2026. Here we go.
SPEAKER_02:Contact, body contact.
SPEAKER_04:Body contact. Are you kidding me? Hey, I don't know. Jiu Jitsu is just hugging a bunch of people, really.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, hugging and getting your shoulder dislocated.
SPEAKER_04:That too, yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh okay. Um, but anyway, um, to kind of um end uh the podcast, I have one last question. At the beginning, we're trying to like you know give out the definition of masculinity, which we all agree that definition is very big, uh big lame. Yeah, there's not much happening there. So I want to ask a question. In your experience, yeah, what do you think masculinity is or look like in in your context? Or you need more than thickness.
SPEAKER_04:If you could write the dictionary, what would you say? Is that kind of the question, Hoshan? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What does masculinity look like for you? Yeah, well, what is your definition?
SPEAKER_00:I think for me, masculinity looks like, yeah, as I said, generosity, patience, masculinity should be very patience, dignity, and like quiet. I think masculinity for me is very it's laid back, it's sure, it's not saying too much. That's all I feel like masculinity, yeah. I think masculinity is those four things in various combinations. Um, yeah. Do you feel the responsibility?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, do you feel the responsibility to uphold those qualities?
SPEAKER_00:More and more, yeah, unfortunately. Every time I every time someone calls me sir, I'm like, oh gosh, now I have to be so patient. I have to have so much dignity because you call me sad.
SPEAKER_04:Oh man. I do think we could use more of your of that type of masculinity for sure. I just feel like we're we're just seeing so many gross versions of masculinity, and it's a and it's just it's old and tropey, and it's just like it's been tried before and no one benefited from it. Like people were hurt from it. And so if we really just even took two of those four, I just think that men would be a lot, or at least masculinity would be embodied way better, and we'd have a much better life, I think. Even as women, even as, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I agree. No, I definitely agree. I think there's a reason why we have the word toxic masculinity, and I think a lot of conventional traits of masculinity is always very toxic. I think you definitely need a newer, more modern definition and presentation of masculinity to help us to better this world.
SPEAKER_04:So, moral of the story, Ulysses, you just have to write a dictionary. I just think that's that's what I'm getting. I you write a dictionary, you can include some Muay Thai definitions in there, some project management terms like Gantt Charge.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, short shorts, yeah, exactly. Short shorts, memory short shorts, yes.
SPEAKER_04:That'd be a great calendar, by the way. Idea. Just yes.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you, Ulysses, uh, for this uh conversation. I definitely learned a lot of things. No, thank you. I definitely learned a lot. Even like I, as someone who also struggle with the word masculinity, I think hearing your story, your idea of it also helps me to anchor and have this kind of sense of relief of in terms of like my own identity with gender, with with masculinity.
SPEAKER_04:So thank you. Yeah, yeah, and your generosity too, definitely. Um, you gave a lot of yourself and shared story, and I think that yeah, just want to say I really appreciate that as well.
SPEAKER_02:So being a man, generosity, the first thing he said. Exactly. Well is gonna come to the last segment of our podcast, which if you're new to us, we always end our podcast with a Canadian style pop course, which we you we ask each other questions that's usually related to a topic or related to Canada. Yeah, and then we don't that we're not prep for, and then we can see whether we know enough about Canada or the topic.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and we're all immigrants, so we're all I think we know a lot more about Canada than Canadian.
SPEAKER_02:Let's hope so let's hope so. Don't say it too early.
SPEAKER_04:I know, I know. I shouldn't say okay, okay.
unknown:Never mind.
SPEAKER_02:Andrea, do you want to go first?
SPEAKER_04:Sure, I would love to go first. Okay. My question to you both is who was the very first elected transgendered person in Canada. Okay, maybe I'll make it easier. Okay, in what year was the first elected transgendered person elected into office?
SPEAKER_03:I don't think it's easier.
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna just go let me say 2023.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, 2023. Hoshan, what's your guess?
SPEAKER_02:I was in 2024.
SPEAKER_04:2024. Okay. Buzz, you're both wrong. It was in 2017.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, Julie.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, this is a French name. I'm so sorry, Julie. I cannot pronounce your name. Julie Lemieux became the first openly transgender mayor in Canada and the first woman to become mayor in Tre Saint Redemptier, Quebec. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry, French people. So anyway, but yes, Julie, that was in 2017. So that was the first openly transgendered mayor elected in Canada. So there you go.
SPEAKER_02:Gagnus Everdeen, I'm gagged. Did not Julie, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04:You can write me, girl, let's go for have lunch or something.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. Seventeen, okay. Okay. Ulysses, we both think Canada's would be backwards. We think of the very reason.
SPEAKER_01:Pretty embarrassing.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, my question is according to the 2024 uh census, do we currently have more men in Canada or have more women in Canada?
SPEAKER_04:Self-identified in this in the survey.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, self-identified, yes.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna say women.
SPEAKER_02:Women. What about uh Andrea?
SPEAKER_04:I think I'm gonna have to go with Ulysses on this. I do think there's more women. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Ding ding ding ding, both correct. Yeah, finally. There is more women. Uh historically has been always been more women in Canada. Um since from the 1980s to there's had been more women than men living in Canada. Um even though the gap has been closing since uh 1980, uh the gap has been slowly closing. 98 men to 100 women now is 99.9 men to 100 women. So it's very close now. Yeah, it's been slowly closing. And one of the reasons is because women have always have a longer life expectancy. Sure. So that one of the reasons that's why, and then men slowly catching up in terms of life expectancies. Um, that's one of the main reasons why the gap is closing.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting. Wow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But there's many countries that have more men than women, like way more, like, for example, on top of my head, I know China had always been way more men than women, but that is also because of some very horrible traditions of like being you know sexist.
SPEAKER_04:Um, Ulysses, before you go, if thinking about Canada as a salad, so Hoshan and I have talked about what type of salad component we would be. I am a pea. Hoshin is a tomato. What would be you uh what ingredient would you say you are in the grand old Canadian salad?
SPEAKER_00:I think I'm a pear. I think I'm a pear. Some foodie.
SPEAKER_04:I like that. We do we have a lot of guests that are fruit. Yeah, I think it's just yeah, it's life and I don't know, it's just like a that sweetness, you know? And I could definitely see you as a pear. Pear is one of those fruits and salad that isn't overbearing, like pineapple, you know what I mean? Like pineapple is like a punch in the face, but pear is like a just it's a little like just a it's just a yeah, a little sweetness, a little sweetness yes, love that.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Ulysses, for coming to the podcast and being so general with us, sharing stories, we have opinions. And we also thank you for you listening, new and old. And um please also if you like this podcast, recommend it to your friends and family. If you don't like it, even more reason to for them to listen to this. That's right. If they hate us together, yes. And please leave a comment on our podcast as well. We're on all the major podcast platforms. And if any comment or recommendation is sent to us, you can send us an email, hello at CanadianSellat.ca, or go to our check out our website, which is our website is CanadianSala.ca as well.
SPEAKER_04:Almost forgot. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02:I almost forgot.
SPEAKER_04:You're getting so old. Oh shit. You need like anti-old pills. No, I'm kidding. I don't know. I don't know, but well done. Well done. That was really nice. Yeah, thank you. Well done. Thank you. Yeah, well, everyone have a good week, and we will drop a new episode next week. So stay tuned. We'll see you next week.
SPEAKER_02:See you next week. Bye.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, bye.
SPEAKER_05:Canadian salad is written and produced in British Columbia, Canada by Ho Chun Hohen and Drea McCoy. Theme music is by Navir Avetyon from Pixabay.
SPEAKER_03:This has been the good drinking production.
