Bring the energy but don't practice alone, amplified opinion is still opinion, and one nice thing

In this episode of absurd wisdom, a.m. is joined by DAE educators Kay Detome, Angel Cruz, Sam Ascensio, and Mohameth Seck for a conversation about topics such as energy exchange amongst people, the concept of community, individual influences and contributions, and the importance of understanding and respect in interactions. Analogies and personal experiences are shared to shed more light on these themes. They also touch on competitive dynamics, communication beyond verbal expressions, and the influence of values and beliefs in social interactions. Towards the end, they reflect on their conversation and acknowledge its open-ended nature.

You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.

You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.

Transcript

[00:00:38] AM: Hey, the voices in today's conversation are Angel Cruz, Mohameth Seck, Kay Detome and Sam Ascencio. All colleagues of mine and educators at DAE.

[00:00:47] AM: And our producer, as always, is Scott Amore. Let's listen in. So what's on your mind? It's our usual, you know, this, this is our version of planning is the first five seconds. What's on your mind? Well, 

[00:00:57] Angel: I did want to bring some stuff. Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:00] Go for it. Yeah. I've been trying to stop myself from talking to Moe because he's like bringing up all these topics and I'm like, yo, let's save it for the podcast.

[00:01:08] Angel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I feel like this topic could be based on like sharing energy. Sharing energy is something that's been like taking place for like the past few weeks. Like for instance, last night I had a dance session, um, because I'm currently training for an event that's coming up on Sunday. And, um, I'm not competing.

[00:01:30] Angel: I'm just. It's just want to go there and just dance with, just dance. But anyway, so last night, you know, I was supposed to just get up with one of my friends and um, he ended up sharing what we were doing with other people that were interested in dancing and stuff. And we met at the park and I thought we were just going to have like a regular session, you know?

[00:01:51] Angel: But instead he brought like his equipment, his lights, his camera and I'm like, Oh, okay. It's that type of scene. [00:02:00] So, you know, he set it up and, um, you know, it was just us, but then some people showed up and so like, these are people I just met and, um, you know, in case, I don't know if I shared with all of you, I'm not from New Haven.

[00:02:13] Angel: So trying to bring the breakdancing scene to New Haven is like part of my vision. So, um, you know, we had a wonderful session and one of the girls that I met, you know, she. She was a little timid. But, um, one thing that I will share about, um, that type, um, that scene is when I first started dancing, um, I looked a hot mess.

[00:02:38] Angel: And so one thing that, that I took and held on to was the crowd that I practiced with. You know, there was, they weren't judgmental, you know what I'm saying, like, they respect and, and, and cheered me on even though I knew I didn't, I looked like I wasn't doing the right thing, but they still cheered me on, you know, and I kept that.

[00:02:59] Angel: [00:03:00] And then I, I just, I just feel that anybody I come encounter with that is trying to learn, you know, I just like to share my knowledge and education just like we do as educators here. Um, but it's just a part of me. And so. Yeah. Um, when session was over, the girl that participated, she was like, you know, I'm like, girl, you let loose.

[00:03:21] Angel: She's like, you know, it's your energy. You bring the energy. You brought it. And it just, for some reason I got like, it hit me and she just took over. It was amazing. So yeah, that was something that I just wanted to share. 

[00:03:35] Mo: Shared energy this morning, making me go up the stairs too, , but it, it did wake me up.

[00:03:41] Mo: One thing that reminds me of is, um, being a student over there and being around like-minded people. Um, or even when I go to, uh, the meetup in New York, golden Coffee. So like, everyone's like different skill levels, but everyone's like interested in what you're building and what kind of cool projects you're doing.

[00:03:56] Mo: Mm-Hmm. , uh, and it, it, it makes it a very [00:04:00] welcoming environment, places like that. Uh, even here. Uh, teaching students, most of them come in with no coding experience either, but, uh, the fact that everyone's going with the same mission of like, I want to learn a thing, I want to build my ideas, reminds me when I was a student at Holburne, we just want, you're surrounded by people who all, who come from different backgrounds, whether they're pivoting to tech, leaving college, or graduating college, or want to just do something else.

[00:04:25] Mo: Yeah, that kind of environment really, really pushes you, everyone bringing that same energy. That's what, that's what that 

[00:04:32] AM: reminded me of. It's interesting. It's like every time I start a new practice, which is again, every seven years, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I don't want instruction. I actively don't want instruction.

[00:04:43] AM: I don't want you to tell me how to do this, right? Like with a camera, with even stage work, like I don't know, no class. I want to read a book. Nothing. I want to do it, but I want to do it around people who are serious, right? And, and who aren't themselves going to try to tell me how to do it. [00:05:00] They're doing their thing.

[00:05:00] AM: I want to be around them while they're doing their thing. And I want to hold myself to that standard and, and free myself to look like a complete idiot. And, and just know that's what's, what it's going to be. And it's going to be even worse than looking like an idiot. It's going to be looking like an idiot around serious people who, who like, you know, know their shit.

[00:05:17] AM: Um, and then at some point, like, you know, like I do seven years with the thing, right? At some point, like, you know, year, end of year one, year two, maybe as far as end of year two, then I'm ready for a class. Right. Then I'm like, okay, cool. Now I kind of found my voice. I kind of found like all that, you know, like I can move with the thing.

[00:05:34] AM: Now I want to know what all the best techniques are right now. I want to know, you know, all the shortcuts you got that it took you 30 years to learn and all like, like then, then I want to be taught, you know, and even then I won't be on serious people. So that's why I hear what, you know, that's the experience you gave to, you know, to that young woman, right.

[00:05:51] AM: It's like just being around serious people, but with the freedom to just. Cut loose and be quote unquote bad. Yeah. Right. [00:06:00] You can do that if you're not trying to get somewhere, like with traditional classrooms and workplaces is everybody has to get here. Mm-Hmm. , everybody has to get here. And so if you're, if, if everybody has to get here now you introduce a whole bunch of stuff that's, you know, um, stifling of what you're talking about with sharing energy.

[00:06:18] AM: It's necessary in some cases to do that, you know? Um. The aspects of, of, you know, I don't know, um, training a doctor or, you know, I'm taking a flight next, I'm not, but if I were taking a flight next week, the aspects of training a mechanic, I want to make sure all those mechanics were in environments that were about getting somewhere very specific and everybody had to get to that somewhere very specific and it was tested and retested and tested and energy the way you're talking about was not a concern.

[00:06:50] AM: It'd be nice if that happened, but that's not the primary goal, right? So there are aspects of life where like getting somewhere, absolutely, that makes sense, you know, kind of training people to get somewhere makes a lot of [00:07:00] sense. And we do that so well in the world, and then we lost what you're talking about, right?

[00:07:06] AM: Throw up lights, throw up speakers, create a circle. 

[00:07:09] Angel: I mean, no, I actually can relate to that. The fact that I, you know, encouraged, uh, my friend Josh. A lot of the, the, the knowledge that I, I gave him was based on like, you need to figure that out. I can't be the one to tell you how to do it, or how to flow, it's just more like, you need to figure it out.

[00:07:25] Angel: I'll give you the basic, you know, instructions, you know, maybe you should do it like this. And then you gotta take that and, and, and just put together in your own way. You know, like that's how you find your I don't know, like rhythm versus I, I am, I have the mentality of, okay, I had two weeks to, you know, train my body, um, just for this event.

[00:07:47] Angel: So like, I'm more like pushing myself, you know, to, to, to get to a certain point. So it falls in both categories, I can say. 

[00:07:58] Kay: So we're kind of tied to what [00:08:00] Angel and Iyam were saying, the example you just gave. So, so, learning, learning coding, I used to give this advice, like I started from, okay, learn this tutorial or like read this book, um, now I'm realizing that I'm transitioning more to build a project, or even, even better than that, build the actual service, like my, my, my brother in law is asking me ways to learn, and in the past I went from, okay, here's a book, here's a tutorial, now I'm like, okay, What, what, where, where are you getting to?

[00:08:31] Kay: Are you trying to learn the tutorials to build an actual service that's going to run? I'm like, start with that. Start building the service and put it out there. And yeah, it's going to be clunky, but like, that's the best way to learn. You, you learn very fast. Um, And so, yeah, I'm realizing that I'm transitioning more to that.

[00:08:46] Kay: So that's kind of tied to what I am and Angela is saying. But, about what you started this whole podcast with, I have two questions, and the questions are What is it about human beings that kind of drive us when we have the energy that [00:09:00] you're talking about? And does everyone, does everyone operate like that?

[00:09:03] Kay: Like does, as a human, as human beings, do we need that in order to just move forward in anything? And um, does it work like that for everyone? So these are the questions that came to mind when you, when you brought it up. Okay. So I'm saying like, what is it about human beings that, you know, causes that reaction when people get, when we feel that energy?

[00:09:22] Kay: Like, first of all, what is that, what is that energy? Like, how does it happen? Where does it come from? And, um, what, how, how does that effect even happen on human beings? Does everyone have, have that effect? That's the second question. Because it's, it seems to, it seems to happen. Like, in my, in my life growing up, like, there are times where, like, The energy around me has definitely changed the way I do things.

[00:09:42] Kay: And does everyone operate like that? Like, does it work like that with everyone? 

[00:09:45] Angel: I can honestly say. Everyone feels it because, like, the energy is not always a good energy. You know what I mean? You can pick up bad energy and still be impacted in [00:10:00] an awful way. You know what I mean? Versus You're picking up positive and good energy, that vibe, and it's impacting you in a more positive way, you know, so I, I can't relate to you, to what you're saying, because I, I have experienced many picking up bad energy, and it has impacted me in, you know, in a bad way, at the, at that time being, you know what I'm saying, so, based off of my experience, yes, and, and I think it's like that for everyone else, to be honest, in their own way.

[00:10:32] Kay: One more thing and then I'll let you go. So first of all, that's a very confident statement by saying everyone feels that way. I admire that. Um, and second of all, I was about to say something that just, um, moved away from me. Oh, so, The reason why I asked, does it work like that with everyone is because like, Some people have the mindset of like, I, I am not going to, like some people have control over that, where they're like, okay, I'm not going to let, let this move me.

[00:10:59] Kay: And um, [00:11:00] and, and it let, they kind of do whatever they have to do regardless of whatever energy they're receiving. And, and I'm, I'm curious if that, the reaction is a reaction caused from the energy they're receiving or, or someone kind of overriding that energy. Like, I'm all over the place now. Sam, I think it's time for you to speak.

[00:11:19] Sam: Um, well, I, I have, I have some history in student counseling, and it's really interesting that you kind of bring that up because You know, we kind of describe caring for students really similar to caring for plants. Like, there are plants that are like, you know, they just need a little bit of water, they'll be alright.

[00:11:33] Sam: And then there's plants that have bugs and you've got to take long periods of time. And then there's the plants that are literally on fire and you need to handle that right away. And one of the things that we talk about is this thing called Dance Floor Theory. Which is really interesting, you bring up dance.

[00:11:44] Sam: And in Dance Floor Theory, the whole concept is like, you know, when you're at a party, right, there's like the people that jump in and they're like bumpin and they're ready for it. There's the people who are like, I'm not sure, they're kind of stepping forward, stepping back, and then there's the people that are just on the wall, and, like, maybe they'll join, but there's also the ones that are on the wall that's like, [00:12:00] this is not for me, this is not the time, but I'm still excited to be here, and so, one of the really important aspects of, you know, being an educator, being, like, a counselor, to provide these kinds of services is understanding, like, where these students are lying in this dance floor theory that we're talking about, like, are they the kind of person that's going to jump in, or are they the kind of wallflower that can eventually jump in, but need that space to become that person.

[00:12:22] Sam: So a really big thing is kind of just noticing that language and what we're doing to create a space to make that happen. So you need to think a lot of, you know, the education space you're creating has that dance floor. So it's really interesting you bring that up because I don't think it affects everybody the same way, really similar to what you're describing.

[00:12:38] Sam: I think it definitely affects them differently, really similar to what Angel is saying as well and understanding, you know, where people lie. I think that's the difficulty is really kind of verbalizing 

[00:12:48] Angel: that. Sam, you make a great point. Um, okay, back to what you were saying. Um, we also do have the power to control it.

[00:12:59] Angel: Like, [00:13:00] we have control over ourselves. So we can either turn that off and not allow other people's energy to impact us. Or we could, you know, turn it on and it's just, it's like vice versa. I feel that we have control over that. And that's something that, over time, I mean, everybody's different, I can only speak for myself, but, um, something that you need to, like, discipline.

[00:13:21] Angel: Yeah, 

[00:13:22] Kay: discipline. Good. I was about to say, someone could make the argument that you turning it off is a reaction of the energy you receive. I'm talking about a case where, like, the energy didn't affect you at all to the point where you even had to decide to turn it 

[00:13:34] AM: off. If I could? Yeah. Just a comment on that, and two really interesting separate sort of things, um, that you folks are raising.

[00:13:41] AM: If you reeled back 500 years ago, Yeah? If we were living 500 years ago, or then any point prior to that. And I said to you, You know, There are these tiny little animals, they're so small you can't even see them. And when you talk, and particularly when you sneeze, [00:14:00] billions of these tiny animals go flying through the air and land on other people and go inside their bodies and, and, and share any diseases you may have.

[00:14:11] AM: You'd think I was either stupid, crazy, or like, you know, a witch! Right? Like black magic, right? All those things we used to, right? Because it was stupid. It would make no sense. We of course know now, germ theory. Pheromones. Hormones. That you really, you know, if you said to somebody a hundred years ago, you know, there are these hormones.

[00:14:32] AM: Like I get germs, little living things, but they're actual hormones in your body. Great. That you're releasing through your skin. Not through your breath. You're releasing through your skin. And they have mood altering properties on other people. Same thing. Nuts. And yet, We now know that happens. I'm solidly convinced that 500 years from now, or maybe 50 years from now, that we're gonna be, like, I'm not into the new agey whatever, right?

[00:14:57] AM: I don't mean this in that way. But we're gonna understand that [00:15:00] we trade, uh, electricity. That we're confi The nervous system can be thought of very accurately as basically just an electrical grid. Your nervous system is just an electrical grid. It's sending microscopic pulses of energy. It's opening and closing.

[00:15:14] AM: It's a switch. It's billions of switches. Right? Why wouldn't we be exchanging literal electricity? And why wouldn't that affect us in the ways that, uh, trading germs affects us? Right? And so, to your question, I, I, I don't think we can avoid it. I think it happens. I don't think we have a science around it yet.

[00:15:34] AM: I think we eventually will. 

[00:15:36] Sam: There actually is a science, actually, about it, which is really interesting, um, in gender studies. Um, when it comes to hormones, and y'all may not know this. But your hormones actually do change so in a sense we're all intersex and if you don't know what intersex is It's basically an individual who has both female and male characteristics and it's not just like physical.

[00:15:52] Sam: It's like hormonal. It's our body It's all of these things, right? so they found that when people who identify as female or have female bodies like comment [00:16:00] positions of power, their testosterone actually rises and it changes how they interact. Same thing with people who have male identifying bodies is their hormones change as well to become this like caring individual.

[00:16:10] Sam: And so as we understand gender roles, as we are kind of placed in environments that change the way our hormones react to certain kind of things that happen. Our hormones change over time and become reactive to those things. So it's, you know, really interesting to your theory, I think, that, that does 

[00:16:25] AM: happen.

[00:16:25] AM: Yeah, and, and, and so, and, and I, I don't know what the science is on, on the hormonal side in terms of, like, then the impact interpersonally, because that's how you're raising it is interpersonally, right? But on the energy side, Sam, there, there, there's no real credible evidence yet, right? But there will be, I, I'm convinced, because why could there, how could there not be?

[00:16:41] AM: We're electrical beings to some degree. How are we not exchanging little pulses? How does that not have an effect? And I, you know, I always, when in doubt on stuff, I always look at wisdom traditions. Like, folks have been thinking about stuff for millennia. And I don't trust it as scientific truth, but I trust it as truth.

[00:16:57] AM: They've been exploring it long enough that what they have to say about it [00:17:00] conceptually is likely accurate, and science will catch up and make it accurate accurate. But all traditional cultures and all wisdom traditions talk about this kind of energetic exchange in different language, you know? And so, anyway, all that was to say, you know.

[00:17:15] AM: Yeah, okay, I think, I think it's everybody. To Sam's point, though, I want to make is one of the big cautions, particularly for those of us who, you know, presume to, uh, uh, hold developmental space for others is to be assumptive around the manifestation of the energy, right? And so, yeah, I'm impacted by your, I could be, like, really into your energy, but I don't dance.

[00:17:34] AM: It's not I'm afraid, it's not I'm shy, it's not, that's not my expression. My expression is to sit here. And this internally man, I am dancing. There is all kinds of things happening. Yeah. 

[00:17:44] Angel: I can see that. Actually, one of my friends that was there, he doesn't dance. But he was so souped, like, he doesn't dance.

[00:17:53] Angel: And he's, you know, and I kept like, you know, encouraging him, like, come on, bust a move. He's like, nah, this is where I'm at. I'm just [00:18:00] like, right here. 

[00:18:01] Sam: Yeah, that actually reminds me, I'm up this like, this book, right, it's called Poor Queer Studies. And it's about, um, students who are queer in educational spaces.

[00:18:10] Sam: And, um, one of the things that they kind of talk about is, Kind of realizing when you come from the ivory tower, which is like when you're like, yeah, we're gonna talk about this We're gonna care about these 

[00:18:18] AM: people. We care 

[00:18:19] Sam: so much about teaching this thing and the students are like, dude I'm gonna eat ramen every day for lunch.

[00:18:25] Sam: I do not care about whatever you're talking about today. This is Not my vibe and the problem is right when we we're like, yeah, I used to be that person I used to be in this exact same space as you look I could totally teach you everything but it's like you spent so many years learning about the thing, you're in a whole different space than the people you're trying to serve.

[00:18:43] Sam: And when you don't take the time to recognize that, you're changing the space to what you want, because you're now the person with power. And I think, you know, kind of to the point that A. M. 's kind of talking about is like, you know, we're affecting these people, we're giving this energy, and there's this conceptualization that's like completely changing how you're thinking you're [00:19:00] educating, and it's, it's It's kind of similar to what Kay is saying is I think it does affect it.

[00:19:03] Sam: I absolutely think it does, you know, if you're, Oh yeah, I know everything. I learned all this stuff. I'm going to make it the safest space ever. You could be completely doing the opposite because you're from this completely different space. 

[00:19:14] AM: It is. So I am so, it should be dead obvious. I am so with that sentiment, right?

[00:19:19] AM: Just give it and I get cautious around like we, we, we did move a little too far in that direction in some areas. Where there are areas where expertise and know this is how it is, like the mechanic, right? Like, yeah, how you've done it for 50 years matters. You should hold me to that standard. On, not me, but on the transactions, right?

[00:19:43] AM: And so the two biggest manifestations of that for me, of kind of losing the importance of that side of things, is climate. Like somewhere along the line, it became, yeah, it's just an opinion, man. No, no, no, there's experts. They know, they've been researching, they've been, right? [00:20:00] Um, and then, and then the, you know, the, the, the, the, this thing's an exercise in how many people can I, can I, can I piss off, you know?

[00:20:06] AM: Um, um, the, the, the COVID kind of vaccine debacle. You know, it's like, dude, just, there are people that know in certain areas. And we shouldn't treat them as better human beings, at all. But in certain areas, it's important to listen to people who quote unquote know, based on past experience. Way too biased in that area for way too long.

[00:20:33] AM: And like this move in the other direction is like, yes. And in some, it's given, here's what I'll say, it's given license to that very healthy trend, that still has a long way to go to really, you know, kind of realize itself around. Really understanding, you know, individual voice, space for individual voice, not insisting on repeating in the past.

[00:20:52] AM: We still have a long way to go on that. But that movement, that trend, whatever you want to call it, has given license to some people who want to [00:21:00] dismiss things that are factual and experience based that benefit us, that create stability, and say, Eh, it's just an opinion, man. 

[00:21:09] Sam: I feel like we've moved away from like understanding that like when we say things like with research It's not like we just sit there and it's like an opinion like you have to sit there right like read 50 articles from 50 People who've been in this for like 50 years and it has to be relevant and it's like no like that's just social science That doesn't exist like, you know, you're just saying that because you study it But it's like it's a reason a person studied and they have experience.

[00:21:33] Sam: It's not coming from nowhere They're not looking at the sky like I'm going to decide today is the day, you know.

[00:21:42] AM: Listen, it's the, again, the, the, the, the amplification of individual voice, which is beautiful and healthy and still a long way to go, has come with the ability to just amplify, right? And so if I, if I can amplify my opinion, grounded in nothing, as loudly as [00:22:00] you can amplify your opinion, grounded in 50 years of research and 50 cases, right?

[00:22:03] AM: Okay. Clearly our opinions are equal. They're both just as loud. You know? And I've got more followers than you, and therefore maybe my opinion is even better than yours. Yeah. You know?

[00:22:20] Sam: I feel like that even kind of really connects to that energy thing too, because like when you have a bunch of people backing your thing, like you can be like, I've, like the sky 

[00:22:29] Angel: is green. I mean if you think about it, what about like all these events, concerts, or , uh, MMA fights, uh, you know, just basketball, every type of sport you have people cheering for a specific person or a specific team.

[00:22:47] Angel: Yeah. And that amplifies them. That gives them hype. So it's like they, you know, they're expecting that. 'cause, you know, the good energy would definitely, um, get them going [00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] AM: there. There's, uh, um, um. One of the, there are two different monasteries I spent all of my, you know, kind of retreat time in. One of them, and two polar opposite, right?

[00:23:09] AM: But one of them is one of Thich Nhat Hanh's monasteries. Uh, if you know Thich Nhat Hanh, he's a Vietnamese Buddhist, um, came on the global stage during the Vietnam War. He was a real activist for, you know, um, for peace! Crazy concept. Uh, Martin Luther King nominated him for, gave the nominating speech for his Nobel Prize.

[00:23:28] AM: Like, just a, just a, an amazing human being. Uh, and he's got one of his monasteries is in, in New York actually, not far from here. One of the many teachings from him that, that sort of stuck is a kind of two sided teaching. One is, he said, you must be aware of and pay attention to every single interaction you have in the world.

[00:23:46] AM: Every step you take, every word you speak, everything, particularly in the context of the human beings, is the dropping of a seed. Be careful of the seeds you drop with other people. And the other side of that coin, watering. They [00:24:00] say that, you know, uh, uh, every interaction you're having with others, you know, they're dropping seeds on you, but they're also watering.

[00:24:08] AM: Be careful of what seeds you allow others to water for you. And to me that's an energetic exchange conversation, right? And so if I'm hanging around like intense, violent, aggressive, that's water, man. That's water. And I've got the seed of aggression in me. I'm human. And so if I'm living in that environment, constantly letting that seed be watered, that plant's gonna grow, man.

[00:24:31] Kay: You know? That's a good analogy. To your point, like, it looks like the examples that we're all like thinking about are Lots of people giving one person energy. But what about the other way around? Where it's like one person giving lots of people energy. I, I, I'll give you an example. Like during my, my wedding, my honeymoon, uh, my wife and I, we went to an event and there was this famous musician in the city, you know, who was, who was about to perform.

[00:24:57] Kay: He wasn't on stage yet, so there was this live band of [00:25:00] just random people singing his, his songs prior to him arriving. And I kid you not, this is like a Ghanaian thing, culture. Like everyone was sitting down eating. And there was this like open field, grass field, and then there was a stage. So we could all see them performing open field.

[00:25:16] Kay: And then even, even the people singing were like, oh, Ghanians, like no one, no one's gonna, you know, get up and dance. You know, as soon as the first person gets up, then everyone else joins in. Everyone's waiting for that one person. And for me, I was like, enjoying my meals, enjoying the songs, and I'm like, come on now, what's going on?

[00:25:31] Kay: Someone. And then I got tired of it. It took an hour. They, they were on stage singing, waiting for the musician. We took an hour, and I finished eating, you know, with my mom, even when I got up my wife would like held me down, was like, yo, sit down, you know, um, you know, the mother in law was there, you know, father in law was there, brother, sister, and then I just got tired.

[00:25:52] Kay: I pretended like I was just walking off, like going somewhere, and I walk in the middle of the field, just walking, and all of a sudden I started dancing. I kid you not, [00:26:00] it took just two seconds. I thought it was just going to be me dancing. I turned around and it was everyone. I don't even know how that happened.

[00:26:06] Kay: I'm not talking hundreds of people. But I was shocked. I thought it was just going to be me dancing. You know, I'm facing the musicians. And all of a sudden I turn around and everyone is there. Everyone. I was like, wow. Yeah. That definitely put a smile on my face. So it looks like I gave them energy, but then they also gave me energy to even keep going.

[00:26:26] Kay: Because I was like, oh man, this is going to be just me. But I forgot about all that, just kept on dancing and everyone was there, in sync with me, I was like, okay, let's go. 

[00:26:35] Sam: I feel like that's kind of like, a really core part of advocacy. Um, you know, especially like abolitionism, they would say like abolitionism is creating positive pathways to success and a big part of it is always just having one person who has the guts to say something like stonewalls, like somebody would just like, I've had enough and just started shocking things at the police and it was like, it's time we're going to do it is the moment, but even before that there was even like, like riots that were happening before [00:27:00] that.

[00:27:00] Sam: And kind of like to your point, I think it's like, I feel like we all feel things. We just need one person to just say it. And once that person creates that positive pathway, we enable them. You know, positive change to happen, we enable the thing we want to happen, happen more easily, whether that thing is good or bad.

[00:27:14] Sam: There's a 

[00:27:14] AM: line from, uh, uh, Schopenhauer that gets, you know, used, um, that's been used a lot and repeated a lot. Um, all great ideas go through three phases. First, they're openly ridiculed. Secondly, they're violently opposed. Third, they're, uh, accepted as common sense. And so this like, you know, kind of this one person standing out there with this no, it can be, it's like, okay, you're an idiot, go away.

[00:27:36] AM: And then people start to see, oh, wait a minute, they're actually going to do this. And then there's like opposition to it, you know. And at certain points, like, yeah, of course, you know, everything from, from marijuana laws right now to, to God knows not across the nation and very much not around the world, but, but acknowledgement of gender issues and the fact that, you know, the two categories maybe doesn't capture all of human experience like that was, It wasn't [00:28:00] opposed 50 years ago, it was laughed at.

[00:28:02] AM: Mm hmm. Yeah. And then it started getting opposed in the 80s and the 90s when, you know, the queer community started, like, actually, no, no, no, actually, we're serious. And then, like, and now slowly in tiny corners, you know, relative to the world, it's like, oh, yeah, of course, of course we should live that way. 

[00:28:16] Sam: I think there's a lot of burnout when that happens.

[00:28:18] Sam: Of course, yeah. Like, I definitely was that person that was, like, This is a thing and like literally in my college I was the first ever trans person that was out like as a club executive to the point where like we would go on these retreats and they'd be like, male, female, and ooh, which one you want? And I'm like, okay, cool.

[00:28:36] Sam: And it took like, I was like, all right, we need like an LGBT center, not a women's center. And they're like, it's the same thing. And I'm like, dude, it's really not. It took me four years. It was the same thing. It was just me by myself. Then it was a bunch of people. And I was in the same space where people were like, fighting me.

[00:28:52] Sam: I was like, fighting administration. Like, by the time it happened, I was like, So exhausted so tired and I was like this is positive thing [00:29:00] for many people but for me it had a really negative effect It was exhausting. It was a lot of burnout. It was a lot of energy and like I do kind of wonder like For a lot of people who are that, like, that one person that brings other people energy, like, how do you, how do you recharge that, especially with really serious topics, you know what I mean?

[00:29:17] Sam: Serious things, like, if you're a person who's advocating for people to, like, just live, what happens to you, like, are you really living? I mean, you're, 

[00:29:23] AM: you're, Sam, you're hitting such a, a, a big sort of thing for me. You know, we, cause we, I mean, well, I mean, on one level it was executives, really we were developing practitioners.

[00:29:33] AM: Yeah. Who could go into the world and, And one of the things Mel and I would talk about regularly, not even a question, but an inquiry that needed to be kept alive, which is, who makes home for the homemaker? Who holds space for the space holder? It is so easy to collapse into, you know, uh, a psychological or, or just physical martyrdom.

[00:29:50] AM: Yeah. To the cause, to the thing, to the, right? And so, well, the only thing we ever found was this. We found a community of practitioners. And we'd like to talk about when we were [00:30:00] developing people long term, it's like, never practice alone. Yeah. Never practice alone, right? Because you need as much space as you hold for other people and as much as that takes out of you, you need at least one other practitioner who can hold that space for you, right?

[00:30:15] AM: Not fix you, not help you, not none of that, but just like, you know, can hold the totality of the experience you're having, right? Um, because I do think the, the, the, the mythology around it is, is that it's, it's martyrdom work that it's, you know, that you're going, I'm going to sacrifice myself for this. And, and, God knows that becomes, has become necessary in the past, but I think community and community can be two people, um, of committed practitioners is, is really essential to avoid the experience that you had.

[00:30:44] AM: And I think most people who are out for change in any context, uh, tend to have, 

[00:30:49] Sam: I kind of wonder, you know, how do you, how do you build that around the kind of niches that people have to like, you know, like an angel's case, right? You're trying to. Build like this, you know, dance kind of culture here, [00:31:00] but you know, like you have a group of people But if you had to do this all alone, like I guess like let me ask you like What would you do if you were alone and then you're trying to 

[00:31:06] Angel: find the space?

[00:31:07] Angel: Um, I was in that space before pretty much just Doing my homework. I'm trying to find Recreation centers that will actually allow open space for dancers to come, you know Um, I mean, when I first started it, it was me and my ex partner, but eventually when we split up, I tried to keep it going because I saw that how it was, it was impacting the community in a positive way, you know, and so, um, I kept it going for a while.

[00:31:41] Angel: Quite a few things happened from it. I started my own dance, um, classes. Uh, I had access to three recreation centers. Um, and they weren't charging. They were more supporting the vision. And that's what I appreciate the most. I also had an event that brought many kids together. About 100 kids came to the [00:32:00] event and that was just, that was amazing.

[00:32:02] Angel: Um, but after a while it started to die down. I also became a parent and so. I had to step out because it was too much. Yeah, yeah. It was a lot. And so like now, trying to bring that vision to, to life, I, to me, I feel like I need to share it with others to see if they actually agree or they want to participate.

[00:32:22] Angel: And it's, yeah, it's probably going to take a lot of footwork, but the vision is to bring the community together, unity, you know what I'm saying? Two is better than one. More than two is even better. You know, so that's the way I see it, like, now that I'm pushing it. And, you know, the fact that I can connect with certain people, which I have connected with quite a few people, you know, maybe.

[00:32:45] Angel: So it's just like, it's, I'm going about it in a different way now. Versus ten years ago. You know what I mean, when I was trying to do it. Um, because I, I have much more experience, you know what I'm saying? But it can get burnt out, like it [00:33:00] can get you burnt out. And I took a break for a while, 10 years. Let 

[00:33:05] Sam: me ask everyone like a question here.

[00:33:08] Sam: If you had to create like, you know, whatever your ideal thing is where practitioners can be practitioners, you know, people can learn to be things like, what do you think it'll take to make? that condition happen, you know what I mean? Like, what do you think it'll take to make a world where we can have people who can advocate for things without getting burnout and getting that support?

[00:33:25] Sam: Like, what do you think the world needs right now? Love 

[00:33:27] AM: and support. Yeah, I mean, Sam, what I said earlier, um, you know, my answer to your question, like, we, we, it, it's not the only way to do it, and I'm, I'm, I'm very hopeful for many ways to do it, but, but we've, I mean, we've done just that for 30 years, right, in, in its communities, right, we've got the MAOL community, we've got the TuesdayD community, those folks have been together forever, like, the MAOL community is fascinating, like, how, they're, like, it's just a lifelong, like, like, we all came out of this seminary together kind of mindset, even though, you People weren't in the program at the same time, weren't in the experience at the same time.

[00:33:56] AM: I think you see the little inklings of it here [00:34:00] with some of our graduates. where there's some people who I just feel like as long as we maintain our integrity, this will be their community for a certain kind of ontological cleanup. And so again, the only answer I've ever found, and again, desperately open to other pathways, because, because there's a certain kind of sustainability problem to this one.

[00:34:19] AM: But the only path I've ever found is, is a committed community that keeps refreshing itself. Because one of the things that can happen is In those communities, you start with the best of, uh, best, purest, cleanest of intentions. And then as people start to enter, it's like, yeah, no, no, no, we're not doing that.

[00:34:36] AM: We're doing this. And then you start to become your own expert. You start to become your own kind of source of calcification. And the willingness to kind of keep holding to your compass point, but to throw away your map with every new person that enters, becomes a really tough thing to master. But it's, I think, important.

[00:34:52] AM: No, I 

[00:34:52] Kay: agree with the community. But I think Sam also, like, threw in What if there's, there's no community to start? What if it's just you? That [00:35:00] makes it even tougher. And how do you keep going? 

[00:35:02] AM: That's what I'm saying. I'm desperate for other answers, because community is the only one I found. 

[00:35:06] Kay: Yeah, I definitely agree with the fact, once you have a community, it just makes, makes everything, um, better.

[00:35:11] Kay: But without a community, it has to be, it has to be grounded to something, some, some root. And, uh, for me, like, in, in, in certain instances, it's, it's always been, like, my values and morals and religion and, and, and things like that. So I always, I always default to that. And, and, and who I am as a person. And I'm like, I know, I know myself.

[00:35:30] Kay: And if no one's here, I'm just gonna stick to that. Not stick to that like, you know, like in an ignorant way. But like stick to that. If I know it's true, I do it. Ask questions like, if my parents were here, would I do this? Watching me, would I do this? Things like that. I mean, again, this isn't me bringing, things like that.

[00:35:48] AM: Alright, 

[00:35:48] Sam: let me ask you a question though. What if you're in a space where everyone has the opposing view of you? Then how do you 

[00:35:52] Angel: build community that 

[00:35:53] Kay: way? If I, well, so that now goes into another problem, which is how you build community. I'm talking how do I keep [00:36:00] the energy going, like, so that's what's going to keep me going.

[00:36:02] Kay: How do I build community? I don't force anyone. Right. I keep on standing for the things I stand for and, and, and communicating that. And then keep moving. Because it's not about, building community is not about forcing people. Yeah. If people kind of understand what, what, what it is you're, you're doing, they will join.

[00:36:18] Kay: And if not, you don't get discouraged about it, you just keep moving. And then the bright people will come. And if they don't There's no expectations. If they don't, they don't. You are the community. 

[00:36:27] Sam: I like that idea. You are the community. There's no expectations. 

[00:36:31] AM: Well, and so this, this, I mean, it's interesting, Sam, because a prerequisite for community is not that you agree with me on this topic.

[00:36:37] AM: Yeah. In fact, I am very open to folks who, who fundamentally think I'm wrong, but Ben and I, when we talked, uh, yesterday, we, we recorded another, one of these sessions, uh, we talked about trust and I was trying to unpack my kind of understanding of what trust is. In community, what I'm looking for is not the trust of transaction.

[00:36:56] AM: Mm hmm. Including your beliefs. I'm, [00:37:00] I'm, I'm, I'm looking for the trust of, uh, process. Meaning that you fundamentally disagree with me, but there's rigor to how you're going to approach this. There's a respectfulness to how you're going to approach this, right? We used to have that in the, in the, you know, Mike, when we were growing up, like Republicans and Democrats, like on a global, you know, on a national scale, like I disagreed with those bastards, you know, the Republicans.

[00:37:21] AM: But I had respect for many, if not most of the national figures having some integrity to them. Like I trusted them in the sense that, that they're operating out of a legitimate framework. And, and now we can sort of engage on, okay, let me help you expand your framework, right? But it's a legitimate framework, right?

[00:37:41] AM: And so I can be in community with somebody who I fundamentally disagree with, if they're engaging with integrity in the conversation as opposed to just some, you know, this is my opinion, F you if you don't like it, this is how it's been, F you if you don't like it, this is how, you know, et cetera, et cetera, you know?

[00:37:58] AM: And in fact, I, [00:38:00] last thing I'll say on that, in fact I've, I've found it useful, like I think of the Tuesday AT community, I think of some people, uh, Ryan, I know you're listening. And I know you're gonna deny you're listening. Um, there's a student, we had a grad student, uh, uh, Ryan, first name, I won't say his last name, really bright, you know, grad stuff, really bright, really smart, really, really, really bright.

[00:38:18] AM: Wasn't having any of my shit. But, would show up constantly in a rigorous way to challenge, you know, the kind of perspectives I was laying out. And it was great. It was developmental for everybody. And he wasn't like a casual rock thrower. You know? He was like, this, how are you going to practically build a career if you're blah blah blah, right?

[00:38:36] AM: How are you going to, and it's great. And he'd show up for Tuesday tea and he'd like, you know, now there are topics where there's more emotional psychological safety risk issues. And so folks who have opposing views, like there's a real kind of, you know, nuance in terms of how you facilitate that space, right?

[00:38:53] AM: Because the closer you get to those things, the more possibility that that disagreement. That committed [00:39:00] disagreement starts to turn into something personal. I will stop there, but it's an interesting point around do we engage in community with people we disagree with. For me, the answer is yes. Oh no, I 

[00:39:11] Sam: fully agree with you.

[00:39:12] Sam: I used to be terrified of veterans. It's a very, very, very weird thing to say. I used to be terrified of veterans because I was taught like, They don't like queer people. We don't like them. It was just clash all the time. And then it was just really funny like one day where we're both like, they put us all these groups of students in like one group and they're like, Oh, we want you all like interview this like administrator for the college.

[00:39:30] Sam: And we're like, all right, great. And then like me and this veteran both ended up saying the same thing. Where it's like, you don't care about students. Here's the thing you need to do. And we both looked at each other like, what the? Okay, and then from there we just had like a lot of discourse where we found out like even though we're opposing on certain things We're meeting up on other things and there was just so much similarity that like we ended up being such a close Community in the college of people were like, how did that happen?

[00:39:53] Sam: And it literally just took an instance of like meeting two buttheads and then meeting to understand each other I think [00:40:00] I agree like I think community you don't need Same values, but also at the same time we need opposing values to understand that, like, there is a reason that these values are opposing, and this is an important part of growing as people.

[00:40:10] Angel: It actually brings me back to the last topic from the last podcast that we had, purpose. I know we were talking about purpose, and um, you know, as I hear, you know, KAM and Sam talk, it really brought me back to that. And the reason being is because we all have gifts. Different gifts, you know, and, um, they show up maybe later in life.

[00:40:39] Angel: That's what I believe. See, Amber, you could sit here and talk about psychology, and I can't do that. Not that I can't. You 

[00:40:46] Sam: can't yet. 

[00:40:47] Angel: Yeah, I mean, I know it would probably take me, like, a whole lot of years to actually get there, but the way I'm built, I'm built differently. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[00:40:55] Angel: Mo, you could sit here and talk about code and, and, and, and [00:41:00] skating, and just the passion that you have for it, but if I talk about it, it's gonna feel different. You know what I mean? You are so passionate about A. I. You know what I mean? Like, everybody is built differently. And so, what I mean by that is the fact that, you know, it goes back to the question that you asked.

[00:41:17] Angel: How can we make it better so that it's not just one person advocating? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's gonna take some time, that one person to advocate, so that other people can actually be like, Wow, they got up and did that. So, that gives them, like, courage. To actually, well you know what, maybe we should come together.

[00:41:35] Angel: It gets people talking, you know what I mean? And I feel like, just by that one person did, it is going to impact somebody in some way. That is going to eventually come and become a community. You know what I'm saying? So, that's, that's typically, that's how I see it. So 

[00:41:51] Sam: you feel like energy is connected to purpose, like bringing back to your original 

[00:41:54] Angel: topic?

[00:41:55] Angel: In a way it does. You know what I mean? [00:42:00] I could sit here and be bold and speak about something that maybe you people, you know. What do you 

[00:42:05] AM: mean by you people? I'm trying to find, okay, everyone here, 

[00:42:11] Angel: okay? You folks. I'm sorry. It's just, it's just, it's 

[00:42:15] AM: just us 

[00:42:16] Angel: people. I'm sorry. I had 

[00:42:18] Sam: to challenge you just a little bit.

[00:42:21] Angel: You sure challenged me. But, going back to, you know, trying to finish up what I'm saying is that, you We all have a role here in this life, you know, and yes, energy, depending what energy you're sharing or receiving, it can do something amazing. 

[00:42:41] AM: There's, there's a whole nother, I don't think we're going to have time for it, but it's, it's, it's, I mean, just what you said is just triggering for me, uh, triggering in a good way, uh, Angel.

[00:42:48] AM: There's a whole nother conversation here that, again, I don't know if we're going to have time for, but, uh, um, it might be, we pick up the next time. So if you think about this conversation of energy and community and all this, right, well, [00:43:00] like, if there's electricity, like lightning, there's no, you know, grid for it, it just dissipates, right?

[00:43:07] AM: That's such a good point. And so, if you think about now, the nature of the grid on which we operate, I bring everything back to, uh, uh, uh, late stage capitalist, uh, uh, consumerist society. The energy exchange that's forced through that circuit board invites some things that none of us are sort of in alignment with, right?

[00:43:28] AM: By its nature, that circuit board invites the channeling of this energy that we're all acknowledging in very specific ways. That has a lot of noise show up, a lot of human noise show up. Uh, um, but, but maximizes productivity, you know, channels that energy to productivity. Versus the human things we're talking about, right?

[00:43:48] AM: So I think there's another whole part of this conversation that's about, yeah, we can do this interpersonally, but we're not in tribes anymore, you know, kind of, kind of, uh, as hunter gatherers, which is how this whole system built, you know, built up for us. Yeah. You know, our bodies, our nervous systems, [00:44:00] all this.

[00:44:00] AM: We're operating on a circuit board, and that circuit board channels energy a very specific way. I mean, inherently, from, from day one, in friendly ways, you know, in, in, in, in iPad games for two years old. You're the competition. Again, in like fun ways. But that's our energetic exchange. You know? Little, subtle, silly things that some folks would say, Oh, come on, you're overthinking this stuff.

[00:44:28] AM: And yet, that's the circuit board. Over time, around who other people are, who, you know, uh, who you are, how you should engage, what matters, the channel, the channeling of those energies interpersonally gets, gets mapped out really early. 

[00:44:44] Angel: Um, it reminds me of a conversation I was having with, um, my best friend the other day and, you know, we're in this state where we're literally, um, Learning one another and trying to understand one another and, [00:45:00] um, one of the statements that she said was, we're just being soundboards, you know, like, and when she said that, I'm like, yo, that's so mind blowing because we are soundboards and, um, you know, I, I shared that last night.

[00:45:19] Angel: I'm like, yo, we're just soundboards. We're just kind of feeding over off of each other's energy. Yeah. You know, because, yeah, I probably brought energy, but at the same time, like, it had to keep on going, the flow. Because if it would have just been me, I would have been burnt out. You 

[00:45:37] Sam: know, that reminds me of another quote.

[00:45:40] Sam: I don't know if you've ever read Kurt Vonnegut. He's this really fantastic writer, and he had this really good collection of college essays. And he once said, like, if you experience something nice, right, turn to the person to your left, turn to the person to your right, and say, if this isn't nice, what is?

[00:45:53] Sam: What is? Well, that is just That you're saying just really resonates with that, that 

[00:45:57] AM: statement. Sam, you just, I mean, [00:46:00] not, not, not that there was any doubt, but you just so reinforced your position in this place. Kurt, I, I, I, I, I literally refer to him as Uncle Kurt. He was so formative to me. Like, that man's Spirit, yeah.

[00:46:13] Sam: I, I identify as a cryptobotanologist, you know, I fully believe in, in what he says. I read it. I read it. I literally, if this is a nice way to say it, once a day, if I ever have doubt, amazing. If this is a nice way to say it, it's gotten me through so many points in life where I'm like, this is like a checkpoint where I'm remembering things.

[00:46:30] Sam: And like, let's see, your point about energy is like, when you feel alone, if you look to your left or your right, you're like, if this is a nice way to say it, you can find one nice thing, you could change the whole world and you didn't even know it. It's crazy. 

[00:46:43] Kay: You got to get emotional for a second. I'm telling 

[00:46:46] AM: you.

[00:46:48] AM: Here's what I'm reflecting on. I refer to you, if you happen to follow me on social media, you'll see me, like, you know, the only kind of quotes I post for the most part are people who actually matter to me. And it'll always be, [00:47:00] like, a Vonnegut quote, Uncle Kurt. Something from Whitman, Uncle Walt. Something from, yeah, or something from Camus was Cousin Albert.

[00:47:10] AM: Camus was not an uncle for me, he was a cousin, right? I have family, like, because of what we were talking about earlier, growing up, like I had these predispositions very young, and there was no community. But I heard Vonnegut as community, I, never having met him, I knew he could hear me, right? And so he was Uncle Kurt.

[00:47:33] AM: Whitman, dead so much, you know, prior to my being born. reading Leaves of Grass, oh, he hears me. Uncle, Uncle Walt, right? Um, and so, so that's another maybe path to, to kind of community is like, you know, there are authentic voices whose, you know, writing or whose music or whose film is actually listening to you.[00:48:00] 

[00:48:00] AM: Like, Kurt's work, I think, listens to the reader in some bizarre way. You know, it allows the reader to put themselves into it and feel. comforted, you know, not to hide from what the world is, to get an acknowledgement. Yeah. Man. What you see about the world. That is how it is. But to also be comforted in that, A, you're not alone.

[00:48:17] AM: And B, there are these practices like if this isn't nice, what it is right there. These practices that can help you stay, you know, healthy and kind. You know? Uh uh, kind was big for him, right? You know? 

[00:48:28] Kay: Yeah. Be kind. 

[00:48:29] Angel: Be kind. I see life as also what you feed yourself. The energy you feed yourself. 'cause. Yes, you, people share and you can receive, but you know, there's times where you could be in a position of what kind of energy I want to feed myself, you know?

[00:48:44] Angel: And so if you're feeding yourself with some really bad, hardcore, crazy energy, it's going to come back out of you. And so, um, that has been one of my models is what I feed myself of what I, what music I listen to. I feel like that's pretty [00:49:00] much like the greatest impact of what kind of music I listen to or where I feed myself, you know?

[00:49:06] Angel: I am a soundboard. Whatever comes in me is going to eventually come out. So, yes. What do we feed ourselves? And that could be probably another topic we touch on next time, but yeah. 

[00:49:17] Kay: It's kind of tied to what A. M. was talking about, about the seed example, where we're all kind of like planting seeds on each other, and then at the same time you know, we're also watering seeds on people.

[00:49:29] Kay: You know what I 

[00:49:29] Sam: mean? I am who I am, or at least I am who I pretend to 

[00:49:33] AM: be.

[00:49:46] Angel: This is our awkward moment of silence. Yeah. This is what it is. What do you call it, Pam, when we get silent? 

[00:49:54] AM: I, I, I, listen, I, I, I think we're actually, um, um, [00:50:00] You know, communication, the, the, the least interesting part of communication is, is the verbal stuff. Mm. And so, you know, in the kind of silence that emerges in these, places, we're still just in, in conversation.

[00:50:17] Sam: So that's a bar. I'm not, I'm not even gonna lie. I was literally just watching Mo and reading them. I was like, dang, deep thought.

[00:50:26] Mo: I've been thinking, I've just been thinking throughout this whole podcast, just listening to Ting it. I don't know what to say, like me and my friend, we're in the car, we're just hanging, eating food, and we're just chilling, there's just silence, not even the radio's on, it's just like, that's, that's like the best part of it.

[00:50:39] Mo: Yeah, you're 

[00:50:39] AM: talking. Yeah. 

[00:50:40] Sam: You're talking, you're talking, just not with your, not with your voice. 

[00:50:45] AM: And it's, again, it's the opposite of what we were talking about earlier, it lacks amplification. In fact, it's the polar opposite of amplification, and yet it is so much deeper communication than the kind of, you know, speaking a soundbite through a bullhorn is.

[00:50:59] AM: [00:51:00] Yeah. 

[00:51:01] Sam: Have y'all ever done that counseling thing where, um, this is the worst thing I've ever done in my counseling career. So they have you look at the person across from you and you just stare for 30 minutes. You don't say anything. 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 30 minutes. And you can't laugh because it'll start the time over again.

[00:51:14] Sam: You can't talk either. And I, I, when I tell you the way people panic in their chairs, it's like, left and right bobbing, left and weave. And then there's like, and then they're just like opening their eyes. They start blinking. There's, there's like. Breathing that's not happening. I'll tell you, try it with the person closest to you.

[00:51:30] Sam: Look in their eyes for a straight minute. Don't say a word. Even worse, don't tell them what's happening. 

[00:51:35] AM: Watch what happens. I'm willing to bet that the kind of hardcore introverts listening right now are having a physical reaction just to that description. Just to the description. 

[00:51:45] Kay: Listen. 

[00:51:46] Angel: Right? That eyes can definitely share some powerful energy.

[00:51:51] Angel: Cause, uh, 

[00:51:52] Kay: yeah. I'm imagining it in my head and I'm like It 

[00:51:56] AM: hasn't even happened yet, 

[00:51:57] Kay: and I'm like, Trust [00:52:00] me. When it comes down to it, I can do it. Don't get me wrong. But like, I'm just thinking about the whole thing and the reaction it gives me. And it's like, 

[00:52:06] AM: it's 

[00:52:06] Sam: interesting. I challenge you to try it. And feel the visceral reaction.

[00:52:11] Sam: Because what is your body telling you? What is uncomfortable about that for you? Light work. No, no, you know what it is? I bet you're inner voice, you're having a whole conversation in your voice without even realizing what's happening with the other person. 

[00:52:22] Kay: Yeah. No. Yeah. This is all interesting. You can handle it.

[00:52:26] Kay: You know, that's the inner voice. I'm just 

[00:52:28] Angel: kidding. I would definitely say that those are one of my parenting methods. The look. The look. Yes. I call your name once and look at you with that look. Mm hmm. My six year old, he just stares at me.

[00:52:44] Angel: And it's like a whole conversation is going on behind that look. And I just want to start laughing and just say how cute he is, but I'm really trying to discipline him at that time. 

[00:52:56] Sam: I have a nasty habit. My mom tries that with me, but for [00:53:00] some reason I'm just, I started doing like, you know, that little thing that birds do where they start fawning with you, right?

[00:53:03] Sam: And I'm like, I'm gonna make you break first. It's gonna happen. I'm gonna win this one. Like, I got this. At this point it becomes a competition. That's, that will never 

[00:53:13] Angel: work on me. Well, I think we had a pretty interesting conversation 

[00:53:17] AM: today. Yeah, it feels, it feels like a wrap. . Mm-Hmm. , it feels like, like there, there are different kinds of kind of pauses in the MAOL we talk about, uh, the word we use as complete, and we just kind of have those practices.

[00:53:28] AM: Here we just don't use that word. It's like, you know, the end of each conversation. It's okay. Are you complete? Mm-Hmm. Doesn't mean you've said everything there is to say, but for now I'm complete. Mm. Just kind of checking in, like, am I complete? Right. Right. And like the conversation at this point feels like it's complete, it's not done because none of these things have a doneness to them.

[00:53:46] AM: But it's complete for now.[00:54:00] 

[00:54:02] AM: Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom. This is A. M. Bott. You know, conversation, real human conversation never actually ends, but episodes of podcasts need to. So we're going to end here. You can connect with me on Instagram and TikTok at at Absurd Wisdom. You can find DAE on Instagram at dae. community or online at mydae.

[00:54:26] AM: org. Absurd Wisdom is produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE, and we'll be back with more Conversation Beyond Understanding next Thursday.