absurd wisdom
What lies beyond understanding? Beyond certainty? Listen in to conversations between a.m. bhatt and colleagues, confidants, and important thinkers as they tackle questions both timely and timeless, and chat about maintaining your humanity in an ever-evolving world.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and Substack at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
absurd wisdom
Walking Around in A "White Out", Cultivating Real Ownership, We Are All Stewards of the Stoop
The conversation delves into the concept of ownership and stewardship in society, exploring the implications of lacking a sense of ownership and responsibility for the collective space and values in a community. It highlights the need for individuals to operate like owners, taking accountability for the well-being of their environment and fostering a sense of stewardship and compassion. The dialogue examines how economic influences and transactional behaviors can impede the development of ownership and stewardship in society.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
I'm a.m. bhatt. Welcome to Absurd Wisdom. And for today's conversation, we are continuing the ongoing series with Ben Heller, CTO of Driver Technologies. Let's jump right in.
a.m.:I just went to pick up lunch. And on the way back, I just like, it's something I've noticed a lot recently, but. But like there was a visceral sort of. demonstration but you know, The across the country here. The post COVID economic. You know, bottom falling out for a bunch of people and, you know, are unhoused population has grown exponentially in the right. And I'm walking down. It's 1130 in the morning. And I'm walking through the heart of Yale, the Starbucks on the corner. There are Atticus's right. That is like belly of the beast out in front of Starbucks. Just three guys, homeless. Smoking meth, like out in the open, just like one's lighting the thing for the other. I'm assuming it's meth. It might've been crack. I don't know if that's around anymore, but there's, you know, And people are walking by and kids are coming in and out of the Starbucks. And. Like I actually know is, you know, but I, I. I know a lot of unhoused people who are hanging out downtown. Every single day. Walking around, you know, two or three times a day. You just get to know people and even those folks. And and I don't know these three and every week there's two or three new and, you know, And so the, the thing that struck me about that. Was not, oh my God. There's people. There's people smoking method. And like, I wasn't like, you know it was everybody else. Hmm. Just how quickly they just habituated to here. That's what's going on here. In the middle of Yale. And nobody's like, I don't know. Nobody, I forget about help or outrage or any of those reactions. It's just, yeah. That's what's happening. And We've talked a lot about the sort of acceleration of things. And our inability to keep up. And what struck me as a question, not as an insight or a thought, even just a question is. Are we. Accelerating people's ability. Dysfunctional ability. To just habituate. They're just tuned out to just kind of like. You know, do you have a ghost? Okay. This is the last time I'll have, but have you ever gone skydiving by chance?
Ben:Never actually gone sky.me. So
a.m.:on the list though. First time I went, it was tandem thing, right? Yeah. And I had, what's called a whiteout. Right. So white out is, is, is lady to a blackout. But a white out is you're totally awakened conscious. But there's so much sensory input that your brain. And so you don't black out. You're not, you're not unconscious, but you go through this thing, which all the white.is again, your brain just says, Nope, no longer processing. And that's a straw. Maybe that's summarizes a thought. I had a, the inquiry that got opened as I'm walking by these guys and noticing what's going on is, is everybody in the state of collective whiteout? And are we going to just continue to stay in a state of collective whiteout where people are walking around and moving around conscious, but there is so much that it just whoop just, it just be awareness, just shut down.
Ben:Sicca topic. Ah, Not a good topic. Yeah. But it's a worthy topic for, for contemplation. And it's going to take me a second to kind of pull on the thread and. And stretch it out a bit. But ultimately right. It's. When you see something. That is bothersome to you, or at least requires processing. It's easier to summon the energy to carve it out and ignore it, put on the blinders and walk by than it is to go through the process of. What am I seeing? Is it bothersome to me? Is it harmful to the people who are engaging in the activity? Is it harmful to anyone else? What do I do about it? In this particular case, is there anything to do about it? What do I do about it? Systemically? Is there something that I need to, like, isn't an opinion to form and a plan of action that needs to take place and all of that. You kind of very quickly do the math and go, I can't right now. I don't, I don't have the ability to form all of those opinions and gain confidence in them and then develop an action plan. But hopefully what someone is doing, and this is unknowable is having walked by in whiteout mode. Then. Take and reflect on that. Like we're doing now and say, Well, That was a notable moment in my day. If this is happening every day, what am I going to do the next time? I see this, what is my plan of action? And, you know, it's, it's hard when it comes to something like this. Cause this is also a I think an urban reflex. I lived in New York city for a lot of years and you're kind of taught to ignore things. It's, it's a manner of, you know, Urban survival in a way where it's like, if it doesn't involve me step away, because getting in, if I get involved in everything, then I'm never going to get to where I'm going, because there's so many things that are happening that are worthy of that level of contemplation. New humans, a little different than New York city. New Haven is a community at the end, at least to me. Right.
a.m.:It's a college campus. We have a big part of downtown is basically a college campus and one of the premier college campuses.
Ben:All right. Yeah. And, and so, you know, we'll take, let's take the specific case that you brought up and actually like, see if we can pull it apart. And I'd be really curious to see where we, where we end up in terms of how we feel about it and what is, what is the action to take, if any. And, you know, with, with open. Drug use, right? There's immediately the disambiguation between are these people. Partying and having a good time. Or are they engaging in behavior that is destructive either self-destructive or causing them to be destructive towards others and the people around them? I think that's kind of the first. The first judgment call to be made in that process. If you saw the same group of three people sitting and. Brown bagging, you know, drinking, drinking a 40. Would you have the, exactly the same reaction versus someone smoking crack smoking math. Or would it be. Other shades of nuance there.
a.m.:Yeah. I so, so for me, Ben, it actually wasn't about the specific thing they were doing. It's the. Again, I'm there three times a day, right? I've never seen that sort of thing out in the open. And so the fact that it happens. And there's zero response to it. All right. And so I've put that now. Thing aside. And just everything. Right. That that, that. Something really critical, just shifts. And we're just like, Got to go and get my latte. Yeah, right. And I'm with you on all of this sort of like yeah. New York. I mean, there was. It's all sorts of things that you just walk in sector. One of the hallmarks of a new Yorker as you're just kind of like. Now unbothered by the. You know So it wasn't a specific thing that just catalyzed a thought it's more broad social. Like we, you know, again, we've talked about this a lot. It is, it is. There's just so much change, fundamental change day to day. And we're just kind of walking past it. But, so I want to just say that to clarify, you know, kind of more, you know, the broader thing I'm actually trying to point to. In your question now If the three of them were sitting there drinking a 40. In that context, right on the corner at Starbucks at 1130 in the morning, it would be similar. Right. Because that's not the norm there. Right. You wouldn't do, you know, people wouldn't do that. People wouldn't be quote unquote allowed to do that. In. The heart again, across the street from Yale art gallery, basically. And so I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm just asking, it's such a shift. Right. And even somebody sitting there drinking would be such a shift. And yet. It's just yep. Shit just keeps
Ben:changing. Yes. I, I like this. This is, I think for me getting at some, some of the meat of it. Setting aside, you know, what's prohibited versus what's allowed. Cause I think that's a less interesting conversation then what's normal versus not normal. To some extent. A lot of my attitude towards culture and society is wanting to encourage the not normal. Right. So again, I'm going to keep presenting, I'm going to throw a hypothetical statute, right? So now it's not three people sitting around drinking forties. It's three people skateboarding, right? Maybe they look like punks. Yeah. Where where's the line at which kind of the like cultural transgressive. This is something that you want to celebrate. Versus something where you say like, this is actually a problem for our community and the fact that we're ignoring it. Day in day out. It means that we're on a slippery slope. And I think. You know, it does come down to this idea of. But it is something being explored or enriched or is it just destructive? Is it just tearing things down?
a.m.:So I'm pointing to a third option, right? So you're saying celebrate it or, you know, Stop it right. And I'm suggesting that people are just disassociated from it. All right.
Ben:I get, so I agree. My my sense is. You're disassociated from it because you've implicitly chosen the latter option of your you're condemning it, but you don't have the mental space to figure out why and how and what you're going to do about it. Therefore, the only thing you really can do is ignore it. And in, so doing, it's kind of the worst version of condemning it. The type of condemnation that. You know, doesn't really, you're not putting any skin in the game. You're not saying this is the society I want to live in, and this is why you're not putting those reasons forward. You're not dedicating time or energy towards creating it. And yet, you know, you're not celebrating it. So you're just kinda. Yeah.
a.m.:Yeah. Yeah. In that micro case, you're not, you're not helping the individual who likely is in some state of addiction, certainly in some state of economic deprivation. You're not helping the neighborhood. You're not. I mean community, any of that? Yeah. So, yes, that is the phenomenon pointing to, but now at scale, Right. Technology advances. The. There's a, there's a film right now. I have yet to see it, but I know like, you know, the. Probably more than I should, because I'd like to know things about building a zone of interest. Have you heard about zone of interest? Have you seen
Ben:it? I haven't seen it yet. But it's been much discussed. Yeah.
a.m.:And do you know how blizzard made that film? No. There are, there is no film crew anywhere with the actors E. He hid cameras and microphones in their living spaces. They knew, obviously, right. And now it's just engaged with mundane day-to-day activities. While living next door to, I think it's Auschwitz. Yeah, next door to a concentration camp. Yeah. And he's capturing. You know, from, from whatever I heard about it again. Have yet to see it and no too much as I hate knowing stuff about film, but but he's capturing this sort of just the, the bay now day to day, sort of numbed out existence. People will engage in. Well, tuning out. What's going on. Right. And, and in when they, I think they won the BAFTA the best film. I'm pretty sure that's what it wasn't in that speech. He said, yeah, you. No, this, this, this film is about right now and what's happening in the middle east, right? For whatever side you come down on that. What I find is most people actually don't come down on a side. They're just tuned out to it. Not because they're not aware of it. Not because they're not worried about it. You know, if they pause and think about it, but like walking by the guy, smoking a meth on the street. It's just. Tune it out.
Ben:It feels a little bit akin to. You know, you're driving on a highway and you see that somebody has a flat tire on the side of the road. If you're driving too fast. Yeah. You don't stop. Right. You go up. Wow. I was driving so fast. I can't, I can't pull over and help that person, but some someone else will. And eventually, maybe there is somebody who sees it slows down and helps the person on the side of the road. But how many people are going to go by going up? I was going too fast. I was in the left lane. I don't know, you know, there's other resources for them. They'll all. They'll. You know, call a tow truck. There'll be fine. And it's always easier to kind of pass the buck. And it's just, I think what you observed. Was an entire society in one. Space collectively. Passing the buck. And they're not being a response to it. Meaning like there's, there's nobody who's stepping in and saying. Well, these are three people who need help in some way. So what's what is there? What's that being passed to when you ignore and say, well, there's the some other cars going to slow down. You know, what are we, what are we implying? Are we implying that somebody else is going to step up and say, Hey fellows like. Are you okay? Do you need something right now? What can I do for you? Is that the right response? Is that what they actually need from a stranger, from a passer-by right? Is it, is there a, a public service of somebody who. It is their responsibility to take care of the people that we live with who need. Help. So, what do we actually know what that's being passed to? And I think the answer is we don't, we just kind of assume vaguely that like someone else. We'll do it, but we don't know whether it's a person organization, part of the city government. Who is it? Yeah. And
Scott:did you get the sense that there was just indifference to what was happening or just the lack of understanding?
a.m.:I felt like they were invisible, man. Like they were at the door there next to the door. And people were walking in and out and it's just not something you would see again, this is not about, oh my God, what's happening to our city. Right. Just. To clarify, right. And. Like I said, I know a lot of the folks down there and these guys, I didn't know. Not that I likely would have said anything if, if they were one of the folks that I knew, you know, there's a certain. Yeah. But no, to get back to your question, it. It was just, just like they may as well been standing there. You. Drinking a Cola. And again, it wasn't the act. It was the fact that the act was such a square wave change from what you'd expect on that corner. And that everybody's just sort of. I love the analogy of the highway, right? Because if you connect it to previous conversations, we are in a state of, so my, you. My ongoing kind of drum. I like to beat. I'll I'll achievement, achievement, productivity, achievement productivity. And, you know, we on-ramp kids to this conversation at the age of 12. You know, or DHS seven, maybe. We on-ramp them to the highway and immediately pushed them to the left lane. And we've got a lot of people driving on autopilot, going really, really fast. And missing all the, you know, roadside accidents. Many, if not, most of whom were folks. Who are driving really fast on autopilot? It's some version of, or they were around others who were driving really fast on autopilot and they were just collateral damage. You know, or they were part of systems. That we're driving on autopilot. You know in the fast lane and they're collateral damage. Yeah. I don't know what to make off X. This is very, this is a half-hour old, but it just, it just, it just, this, the. The tuned out, this really, really
Ben:struck me. I think there's also a sense of not knowing, not knowing what to do. I'm really trying to get to where, like what. What would I have done? Almost certainly what I actually would have done, had to happen today is walk in. Get my latte and then walk out. But what would I have liked to have done is sort of the more interesting question. And, you know, we're not really well-prepared. Two. Engage with people who act unpredictably. And I think we're, we're taught from a young age that drug users are inclined to act unpredictably, which can certainly be true. What probably I would have liked to say if I felt that it was unusual or if they were somehow hurting the people around them would have been. Hey fellows. Do you have a place that you can go right now? Is there a, is there a place that you can go? And if the answer is no, we don't have a place that we can go. Solve that problem. Because I suspect the answer would have been no, there's not a safe place outside of the public. Otherwise, what it was could have been potentially a bit of an act of defiance. If the answer is, well, we do have a place, but we've chosen this place. Sure because we're actually testing the theory that this is, or isn't normal, you know, in the heart of, of Yale.
a.m.:Yeah. I I'm, I'm blessed, interested in, in, in, in sort of how to intervene on that one. Hmm, right then I am. I'm less interested in them than I am in, in the folks walking in and out. Because, and again, I don't, I'm not in anyone's head obviously. And so I don't know what's going on, but, you know, I stood there in the corner, you know, Seven feet away pretending to be looking at my phone. So I could just observe the thing for, you know, at least just a couple, three, four minutes. Hmm. And what I saw is again, I want to get back to let people wait it out. You know, people disassociate, like it's not like I didn't see any nonverbals that were like, oh shit, no, I don't want to get involved in that because of my bad. I just don't like it. Invisible. You know, That's the part of it that I'm keyed in on? Not what should somebody have done or not done? But the fact that it, it, it It may as well, been a hallucination for me, given the reaction of, of of the lack of reaction or even lack of what I perceived in the non-verbals. As even awareness.
Ben:I'm going to take your arm and twist it a little bit on this one. Not just cause I think it's. Not necessarily. I think for, in order to focus on the people who are having the wideout experience. Yeah. There has to be. Something that registers for each person. To allow them to process this and to see it and react to it. And to have a reaction. And for that reaction to involve an action. And that to me, I think remains working backwards from what do you do? Because it can't just be 10 people standing around, you know, the Yale art gallery screaming and holding their heads that something on normally. Unnatural or not normal as happening. They can't run away in hysterics, but nor can they like condemn these people and, and act irrationally towards them. And so I think in order to process it. You do have to work backwards from a sense of action, a little bit. From the
a.m.:bystanders. I agree with you in principle, but what I'm pointing to the event is. The possibility. So I agree with you. You'd have to notice it to have a reaction one way or the other, even to choose to ignore it. What I'm suggesting is that people literally didn't see it. You know, interesting. Walking around. So whited out. That I will not take in any non threatening. It's like the fight flight freeze. Like there's a permanent state of not, they're not, they're not, they're not there. Because for, and again, I'm reaching here in this one situation. Because I'm looking at something more broadly in society right now where. We don't even see it. Because we are so in a walking around in a state of whiteout.
Ben:Okay. So I love this. Thanks for clarifying that. I think for me, I have a different assumption, which is that everyone saw it. And felt it. And then everyone who experienced that as carrying around a little ball of discomfort for the rest of their day or rest of their week. That they're not processing. And they're either it leaking out in different ways or they're processing it obliquely, but that they're really not dealing with it, but that they are carrying it around. I guess it's a less cynical view than someone being like a very kind of Aldous Huxley ask. Like, do you truly didn't see it.
a.m.:Yeah. Yeah. So. I think I'm aligned with you, but I want to go on. I calibrate one thing. So when you say, you know, they're carrying it around, are they aware that they're carrying it around or is it just another thing?
Ben:I don't think it's
a.m.:a gallstone. So this, so this is what I'm pointing to, right. Like, of course they saw it in terms of visual, right? Yeah. But it immediately gets pushed in, in the same way. Like when. That's the whole point of wedding out versus blacking out. Right. It's not that your eyes are no longer taking in information. It's not that your brain is no. Oh, your ears are no longer taking a sound. It's that immediately you are. Pushing it. I would have awareness. You're pushing it
Ben:somewhere. We got, we got there. We got, we got there. Yes. Why it's worth doing this?
Scott:Yeah. So you think a default state is just don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved is kind of like the repeating mantra in people's heads or it's just,
a.m.:it's not don't get involved. I think it is like, Again, what happens in the whiteout is you're overloaded in information that you you've surpassed the ability to process, right. When you're falling. You know, from, from 9,000 feet, At that speed and you lose all sense of perspective and like, it should. The brain can't process anymore. And such as that, No more. The stuff's going in. But the processing is like, Nope, we're not going to, you know, process it anymore. So it's just numbed out state. Where you just. You're kind of there, but not really right. The sound you don't hear anymore. The visual just becomes just this one. Just. It's just like a white sort of like, just. You know, bleached out image of the ground, kind of, sort of what's the experience. But the sound went away, everything right? And so it's not even like, don't deal with it. Don't it just like. We're full. You, you can, you can come in. But, but you're not getting served. Right, right.
Ben:Here's my hot take on this, which is, it's not like we're walking around at 10% of white outstate and we suddenly see a couple of people doing drugs on a street corner, and we go to a hundred, you can't process information. I'd suspect that to continue with this analogy, we're actually at like 92% of the time. Yes. And we see something that puts us over and we go, oh, I can't. That's it. You know, I we're optimizing our lives to be so full that we're not leaving room for any information that comes to us by surprise. And that I think goes for more than something that's kind of bothersome to us. It could be things that are joyful. I mean, this is like truly, we're not like stopping and smelling the roses. Right. And I think this is an extension of that, except it's, it's, there's a good case to talk about in the sense of, okay, this is something that very, very obviously could occupy that final 10%. But there's, that's really, that's really the trouble. And when we do that, it means we don't have time to acknowledge. Other people. Other people are more often than not the source of something that is going to bring us joy. Bring us sorrow. Drive us to action. Make us actually stop pivot, turn our heads and engage in something that wasn't on our list today. And I read this story with my three-year-old. They have frog and toad. It's kind of a beloved child story. And there's one where toad makes a list of all the things he's going to do. And he goes and starts running down the items on the list, and then he loses the list. And he doesn't go and pursue the list as his blowing away, because going to catches list wasn't on his list and therefore he's incapable of going to retrieve his list. And those were a little bit like that. I think when we operate at that, that 90% baseline. So it's really the question of, well, can. Can we peel it back? You know, how do you identify the people as you're walking around, who are actually at at 50% or 20% who aren't overflowing already, who are, who are willing and able to process additional information that comes in unexpectedly? And how do you, how do you even know from your own internal kind of barometer? Where are you at at any particular moment? That's a much more complicated. I'm a complicated topic, I think.
a.m.:Yeah. And I'll take, I'll take the conversation. Into the other side of what you're, what, you're, what you're asking. But, but the 92% thing. Yes. That's again, that, that. That's that's where I'm pointing to is a book to walking around fully saturated. And, and, and this mechanism of just, you know, not, they're not, they're not there even though they, they see it, but it just doesn't, it doesn't register. It doesn't process in the way that it might have. But I'll take the other side of what you asked for on how do you identify a 50%. I think. And, you know, this was in the moment I'm kind of connecting dots here. I think one of the consequences of being perpetually at 92%. Is a high level of receptivity to fundamentalism. Ideological fundamentalism political fundamentalism, religious and unknowns, because what. What a fundamental is perspective in any category provide you. It's very simple, black and white. Way to process everything. And so if you're massively saturated in this area, right, you're near white outstate at all times. And somebody comes along and says, yep, very simple. Here's good. Here's bad. Plug and play on everything. That becomes a certain kind of defense mechanism. That, that you take on that. That helps you just quickly engage with these things.
Ben:Hmm. You don't have to think about it because there's something else telling you what to think about it. Yeah. Or you can at least deduce from a set of rules, kind of how to, how it should follow.
a.m.:And, you know, we know I I'm I'm. At best. I won't even say I was gonna say a loose historian, but that's even I'm I'm you know, I got some, I got some straight bits of knowledge. I picked up on. But, but, but there is a phenomena of, of a fascist receipt regimes. Following on from states of extreme uncertainty, unpredictability and proceed scarcity. Where no one quite knows. You know, a, everything is bad, but B nobody quite knows how to filter stuff. And someone comes along and says, no worries. This is black. This is white. This is good. This is bad. Okay. Okay. Feel better? Cool. Let's move on now. Right. In small communities and large, you know And I kind of feel like that's where we are in the world. Bad.
Scott:Do you feel like the pandemic exacerbated that? Cause it kind of started this.
a.m.:like, like. It accelerated some things that were already like la,la, la, la, la, I don't want to hear about it. Like. Is the whole government of giant conspiracy. Like it. The COVID and the end of the Trump era. Exploded this notion. That the government had a bunch of lizard. Pedophile deep state deep, like all AGLC exploded that right. It exploded. It exploded. At a whole bunch of things. So I distrust of science, just trust a business. It exploded all that. And then introduced a whole new. Thing to saturate ourselves with. Holy shit at any given moment, something I can't see can wipe out. Two three, 10% of the population. And oh shit. I don't have to worry about bombs after worry about people in labs in, in, you know, in other countries. Or. You know, in Tulsa or in what, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I think it's just, it's so rapidly excelled. These last four to six years rapidly accelerated All of this shit.
Scott:Interesting. You say that because it feels like. The conspiracy theory evangelists are the ones that are more likely to see what's not there and ignore what is there. Like you're saying. You're in whiteout from what's happening in front of you. So you've reached behind that. To say like, well, what's the cause of it. It's this, these people are this. Institute
a.m.:the way I would articulate Scott is it's not that they're seeing, what's not there. It's, they're applying. They're very simple. Filter to everything. Whatever happens. Oh yeah. That's because X, what are the, oh yeah. That's because X right. It's just very simple. A way to now filter everything that happens. That does provide, I'm sure a certain amount of psychological comfort. You know, this is good. This is bad. And you move on. By the way. Just a digression because we've gone to three episodes of that. My bashing, either Trump or Musk. If there is a deep state. If there is this cabal of people. Running things in this nefarious, you know, Pedophilic. Whatever, maybe the lizard people actually write it. If that, if you're in that group, Can you imagine? A better person. To be at the. Vanguard. Oh, dismantling us then Donald Trump. Can you, can you imagine a more like perfect. It's like being the mob. And hearing, oh shit, the DA they're appointing a new DA cause they're getting serious about dismantling us. And then the point, the guy that's like, oh shit, man. He's he's into the bookies for of the half a million and these down at the brothel every other week and like, fine. Great. I don't get, like, I get people's conspiracy theories. I get it. But I I'm baffled by them thinking. That Trump is not like a godsend for the conspiracies. For the, for the people running the conspiracy, you know what they're worried about? If they exist, like they would love the fact that Trump's ahead of it. Like, it's just, it's insane. Anyway. All right. Back back to our regular commerce. And then
Scott:compensation
Ben:there. Well, I mean, I think yeah, to. To circle back to the sense of. Humanity. And to what extent, this is encouraging people to be in white outstate to the world around them, and to also be looking for these invisible forces that may or may not exist that are. You know, causing damage in ways that are unseen and unheard. There was this burst of humanity towards the end of the pandemic and during the pandemic of people singing from their balconies and this. Need to connect with people, you know, after a year, plus in many cases of people wearing masks, not getting to see people smile. There's. There's this very positive, I think need for human connection. And it's hard to reconcile that with this like really precipitous decline and like long-term. What it seems to be as trust. Yeah. It's like we need each other. We missed each other, but we no longer trust each other. Yeah. And that's resulting in some very weird interactions. And I do think to bring it to your example of CME, as people engage in activity that is unusual for the place that it was in. I think it comes down to trust. If you trust that those people are not going to harm you. You can engage with them. It doesn't matter what they're doing, right? Yeah. You can you trust them? And they presumably trust you to not call the police to not. You know, insult them to respect them as, as human beings, but there's been a breakdown in trust. And when you don't trust somebody, what's the easiest thing to do stay away. Right, right. And so that's where we're all kind of taking these paths of, of isolation, because we saw at work, we saw that we could do it. You know what? You can just ignore all their other people stay six feet apart forever. I put on our, put on our masks and whatever form it takes. And you know, you don't have to be wearing one to be wearing one, I think is sort of the, the lesson. And, you know, just live a trustless existence. And so we're starting to see it. I think what society looks like as that becomes institutionalized in some ways,
a.m.:I like the, the, the generous but yet still. Honest A take on this this morning. Thing, which is people aren't whited out there. They're there like. Yeah, this is. You know, Like I don't, I don't, I wish they weren't doing that. For their own health, as well as for the community. And. Like. This is where they are and who am I to. You know, I try to do whatever, you know, I there's nothing I can do positive for them. And who am I to, you know, mess with them. I like that reading and I, and I would, you know, my, my biases. I would love to. Get on board that actually. I agree with you that, that that is another. Post COVID event. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'd love to get on board with, with the idea that, that, that, that is a stronger wave than the other wave that I'm pointing to. Around numbing out. I liked that reading of, of, of the 1130 event.
Ben:Yeah. I mean, it's, it's turning the cynicism dial kind of up or down depending on what the temperature of the room is, but.
a.m.:Yeah, cynicism is very underrated. Earned cynicism is underrated. You know, blind cynicism and no good. But yeah, I hear ya. I hear ya. And it is. You know, that, that, that community down there, the kind of Yale student community that is. 90% of who's walking around in the middle of the day like this. Right. It's it's For all of the sort of negativity in town that pops up outside of the Yale about Yale. And about Yalies and their sense of, you know, all those cliches, right. The vast majority of my experiences with young people downtown. In public spaces is not just like pleasant, but, but very often interesting, like in a very, you know, like, like hopeful way. Yeah, I'm the guy who just, I talk to everybody and I'm, you know, I'm having a coffee with a guy who's, you know, kind of, kind of. Panhandling and I'm I'm. Budding in, on conversations of Yalies that you know G cafe or whatever. So I could kind of talk to everybody and, and There is certainly there is more of what you're pointing to in terms of a. I don't know, more of an, of a, of a. Open-hearted awareness of, of things then. Might've been you know, 20 years ago, or certainly when I was, you know, An undergrad.
Ben:Yeah. It's a. I do think the mentality seems to be changing. You know, I, I can't really speak to the reality of it on the ground, but it seems like a lot of universities in big cities. For awhile, we're cultivating a bit of a us versus them. Yeah, attitude. I think now that there's a bit more of an awareness of these schools, wherever they are existing in the actual world and not being as confined to the. The physical gates. That that high at all of the student quads and you know, there for awhile, a lot of the. Great American institutions that are the, like literally the elite institutions in the country. We're sending a lot of people to public service roles, you know, coming out of the sixties and seventies, it was fairly common to go into some type of public service to. You want to affect change in the world? And I think generally there was a wave of that change at a certain point. It started becoming more lawyers than people traveling abroad. I'm trying to. And it seems like there's a doubling back of that. And I don't know if that post pandemic has, has changed at all, but when I speak to people who are kind of the. Generation younger than myself. Almost everybody has these very, very strong, like social impact motivations. And that's not something that I would have identified in my, in my own generation. I think that was sort of there. You know, they. Product of the like Clinton era economic boom was like, ah, you know what, we're going to get good shoulder pads and, you know, get a top tier law job and like that. That's great. Not knocking it, but it's been a, it's been a tonal shift from generation to generation. I do think it is rubber banding back towards public service. It's all be interesting to see what the impact of that is. 5 10, 15 years from now. And if it changes the dynamic of what, what you saw on the street corner today, Yeah.
a.m.:I would be too. It's just, just to share the love. I, I the, the, you know, One of the few people that I would be like, yeah, That kind of believe that. If we found out they were in fact alien lizard overlords would in fact be bill Clinton. And, and his buddy Al gore, who did a brilliant job of rebranding himself with the climate thing, but holy shit, is that guy responsible for some nasty stuff? Yeah. So just, just to do. Let's y'all think it's only Donny and Elon that
Scott:Plenty to go.
Ben:Yeah. Well opportunity hater.
Scott:So. I would posit this theory, let me know what you think about this. I think what he witnessed today was a secondary effect of the housing crisis. Not only because they were unhoused probably, but because in, when I grew up in new Haven, Nineties, late eighties, early nineties, you go two blocks in any direction off campus. There were plenty crack houses. Places to do that. You know, behavior that was, that were ignored by you know, most of the establishment, including the police around, as long as they're out of sight, we don't have to worry about the addiction being a thing that, you know, affects us on campus. So in the fact that it's like, well, this is where we are. Yeah. The effect of you know, All the, all the crack houses were mowed down in high-rises were put in their place. Right. Kind of thing. Yeah.
Ben:So, I mean, what is the, what's the remedy? I, this, I know I'm, I'm. Keep pushing the conversation back towards kind of action, but in, in service of taking new Haven, trying to have. Some majority of the houses not be crack houses off. The borders of downtown and to have a city that feels safe to everybody, but to also have proper pouncing and services for people who couldn't otherwise find it. It's a really, it's a tricky balance without doing the thing that I think is equally as criticized, which is pushing everything to the margins continuously out from the center. And so, you know, there, there has to be some type of well-integrated option inside the city that acknowledges the nature of. The diverse nature of new Haven, which is not entirely Yale. And it's also not entirely, you know, Drug addicts. Right. But it's, it's a complicated. And so how to do that without just saying out. Which is a lot of, of city's answer is it'll somehow go out. The nature of out always changes. You know, To really fix it. There has to be something that says, Nope. And, and that's, that's the trick.
Scott:Most of the Americans who used to be what we call in the middle-class, you know, when we were growing up have been. Elevated socially to. Being able to afford large houses in the suburbs or push down. And don't have that generational net worth. That is, you know, and if they do it is tied up in real estate. It's, you know, we, we live off the value of the properties that we own and. All, you know, I feel like a lot of the laws that are enforced are to, you know, preserve property ownership. They're not really to preserve order. As we think of it, like. Seeing as what am saw today. So, how do we. I think, you know, the easiest way to. To do that is to create more affordable housing, but it's easy to say that out loud. And you try to put it into practice. Nobody builds houses. If they're not going to make a profit off of, you know, that's the nobody builds. Affordable and. Connecticut. Has I think it's 10% affordable housing threshold that they're looking for in most places and out of 169 towns, I think maybe like 10 actually hit 10% of affordable housing. And the rest of them, just put up these clues, exclusionary zoning to. You know, make it so people aren't doing drugs on the sidewalk in front of Starbucks, like where they live. You know, that kind of thing. So it's a, it's a weird self preserving model. And I don't really know if there's a solution. Outside of. Just basically higher taxation of, you know, higher incomes and a lowering of property tax. Burdens on folks who already own existing housing and might be an a. Lower. You know, middle-class or working, you know, working poor, which is Funny. The description of a car. Whole group of people. You know, as opposed to the unhoused wears really unworking poor, you know, like, so. Th the way we stratify these things is really challenging to undo. And I think it really. Yeah, high level needs to be. Looked at, in the sense of really what you were saying, helping one at a time. You know, what can we do to get you someplace where you can have a big, good baseline? That's it. It's a lot of work in. Non-profits. You know, try the best that they can to. Help those folks, but they're just. Understand under resource underfunded to be able to do it. You know, I think. Being able to lay the foundation early for folks who might be in need is the challenge to overcome first, you know, one at a time. One at a time.
Ben:Yeah. I mean. I think I see. I am sort of Wyatt. From the very beginning, you were pushing back against night. Forget, forget about the action piece. Because the action piece does sort of follow naturally. In a way. If you remove the, the white out. Threshold from everybody, right? It's like, you're never, you're never going to even get to action if you can't acknowledge the problem directly and put a name to it. And that's that's the tricky piece is. It's almost like, well, we want to talk about. What would we do? It's a chicken or the egg problem. Like, I'm not going to acknowledge that until I figure out what I'm going to do about it. It doesn't serve me to have a reaction to this, unless I know what that reaction leads to. So I'm going to figure that out first. But then you never figure that out and therefore you never end up having a reaction. You don't create space. But you never create that space, therefore you never acknowledged. It just kind of endlessly loops into this sense of there's always a prerequisite. For me too. To be doing something which boils down to stop making excuses. Right. Right. Like either, either you care or you don't. I think that's sort of the, the easy way to, to sum this up and it's maybe. Maybe people don't care. And maybe they only care when there's a threshold. Of this. And where, what is that threshold for you? Well, it's probably for most people. When they can no longer give him the door to get their coffee. Right when it, it interrupts the flow of what they were going to do. That's just part of the vibration of what drives them. Through their day. And suddenly when that vibration gets interrupted and it becomes a nuisance, then it's like, We got to do something about this, and it's only at the point at which it interrupts, interrupts you. It's. Now it's not about them. It's not about helping. It's not about the community. It's about you and you being bothered. And you know, not to say that. The why matters if the outcome is good for everyone. But it does sort of seem like a devolution. And In our ability to connect with each other. And to just to effect change without it being the result of our personal inconvenience. And then see that I'm dialing the cynic cynical knob all the way back up again. Now, just to. Can you see what it feels like?
a.m.:We'll trade rolls here and I'm going to dial it all the way in the other direction. And, and move away from this. Right. There's there's There's this notion we've used in, in organizations and in startups and I've heard in a variety of places. For me, it came from this, this, this. This incident, my grandfather, but this idea of operate like an owner. If your view. I heard some version of this and like a startup, right. Probably like an owner. You see something needs doing, do it operate as if you own the place, right. And in a startup, you can actually, you, you know, you do have a certain amount of ownership potentially, right. Some kind of shares, right. I've talked in the past about, you know, kind of human beings were born into cultures historically in the last couple of hundred years, pretty much anywhere on the planet. You're born into an economy, right. If you're born into a culture, you're born into a tribe. Group an indigenous name. You're an owner. You know, the land and the birds and the Buffalo and the river. And the stories and all that. You're an owner. Like, that's just your new operate. Like you're an owner. If you're born into an economy, you don't own shit. Even the stuff you own, you don't own. And so when people don't operate like owners, you get things like, like the phenomenon this morning. All right. Where it's like, that's not my problem. Long started referring to me. That's. It's not my problem. It's not my intent. No, nothing negative, but that's not like, you know, I don't own this place. Somebody who owns this place will take care of it. As long as it doesn't interfere with me. Right.
Scott:So that means if they were diagonally across the street. Right at the entrance to the gallery. Yeah. It probably would have been taken care of.
a.m.:We take care of, right? Yeah. Like, I, I guess the Starbucks owners don't care. I guess the police don't care if I don't know whatever. But I'm not the owner now. My job. Yeah. It would be beyond the, not my job. I'm not the owner. I don't have accountability for this. I'm not part of this, right. And the society invites that.
Ben:I mean, this is when people talk about feeling disenfranchised. You know, it sort of, it goes beyond a sense of. Who's city. Is it right? Is it our city collectively? Is it someone else's city? Is it. The university city. Yeah, it's not, it's none of those. And it's all of those. Right. And how do you piece together kind of ownership? And I think that New Haven has a lot of, a lot of trouble with this because there is. Unequal, literal ownership of the real estate in the city. And so it's, it's always easy to kind of say like, oh, this isn't really my turf. It's somebody else's and you pass the buck and it kinda just gets passed around until it gets back to you again. And nothing's really, nothing's really changed. Yeah. So, I mean, we'll what. And when do you start saying the opposite street corner by the gallery? It's like, oh, okay. Well, that's, that's interesting, but I thought you were about to say, what would it, what would happen if it was the opposite street corner across from DAE. Right. Like, this is actually a more interesting block. Not that it would still not be out of place, but.
a.m.:You walk right down right now and likely see it in. In front of our place. It is. A regular, this, you. You know, this block is. Yeah.
Ben:And I mean, but that's, we're talking, we're not talking mile away now. We're talking a two minute walk away from where you were. Yup. Yup. Yup. I mean that's that is that's several different communities. Not just within the same city, but like a couple of block radius that have different, entirely different definitions of what's expected or acceptable
Scott:There's like eight or 10 of the city blocks have. This built-in turnover because it's undergrads and grad students and stuff. So there's accountability as this, like with them, but it's not any one person kind of thing. The administration has also like. You know, doing their best to discourage those folks from going outside of the two or three city block radius of where they live.
a.m.:When I say own though. I don't mean who owns the building? Again, that that, that that's born into an economy frame. Right?
Scott:Sense of a responsibility to the.
a.m.:So, so here's, here's what it'll tell you that my grandfather's story. Cause I have big kind of almost. We'll be almost clarify it. So like for the stories grew up like, like third world, poor, no plumbing, but. You know, the whole deal, right? My grandfather worked for the railroad. He had this, you know, sort of basically a conductor. And that's how we actually had housing. That's a little kind of, you. 400 square foot place at all this lived in was, was that was part. He got that and he got a little tiny, you know, salary. Once a month though, he would bring my sister and I bag of candy. That was like, though. In essence, the equipment equivalent to Skittles Smarties. British Smarties. So there were knockoff Smarties, basically in India, like Indian branded, you know, knockoff, Smarties. And it was one time I was. Right before I left one of the few kind of like, you know, Clear memories I have of, of, of, of that era. I am. We get really pissed off at the six year old seven year old kid. Like why can't I have a moon? Like, why don't we have to wait this. You know, this whole thing. And my grandfather, who's just like this, just this. This crazy gift of a human being. It's as well. I mean all the candies, yours. So, no it's been, but, but there's only like, you know, 30 pieces in here. He said no, I don't mean that. He said all of the candies, yours. And what do you mean? Like all the candy on. In the stores. Well, let's go get it then. You don't need it right now. You have this. We've got tomorrow. Isn't well, I mean, if you need it. You'll have it. And like, yeah. I don't know what the, you know, six, seven years old, you. Yeah. And then he's like, Everything already belongs to you. Like every bit, everything you see when you walk around, it's already yours. And whenever you need it, you're going to have it. And there's only one I'm paraphrasing, you know, in translating from Gujarati. Right. And there's only one thing though that that comes with that is you're responsible for all of it. Just like in the house. You got your clothes though. Those are yours. And you're responsible for taking care of them. Like all of this is. And whenever you need it, you're going to have it. And you just got to take care of it. Right. I've heard that story, you know, in different ways from other places. And so, you know, later in life, I realize he picked that up somewhere, you know, from some book or some, you know from his upbringing and whatever the hell it was, but that's what I mean by ownership. I don't mean transactional ownership. I don't mean like this building is mine or this coffee shop. I don't know. That's not what I mean. I mean, ownership when you're, if you're born into a culture. You have ownership. Not of the things, but of reality of the other people. Like you're an owner. Right. That's what I'm pointing to is missing in when you're pointing to an economy. And that's what I'm going to do with people walking around. They don't have a sense of ownership, not meaning they don't have a deed to something or a set of keys or any of that. But the sense of this is mine. Everybody's walking around. A stranger in a foreign land.
Ben:I sense that. That nature of literal economic ownership. It's chipping away at the sense of stewardship, which is really what, what you're talking about is to be, to be a steward. It's sort of says, well, I'm going to take ownership over this, but maybe not sole ownership. It's a shared stewardship with whoever else. Just call it a stoop. I'm going to sweep the stoop when the stoop is dirty. I'm not going to be the only person to sweep the stoop. Somebody else might sweep the stoop when it's dirty too, but together, this stoop is going to stay well-tended to. And that's a commitment that we're making, even though neither of us literally legally own the stoop. And. But a lot of times the legal definition you got, I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble. I don't know who owns this. Right. I'm not going to do anything because it's not really mine. Maybe they like it swept in a particular type of way. It's easier for me to just not do it, even though obviously the stupid needs to be swept. I don't know, maybe it's this, there wish that it's not. And so you just kind of set it aside. Yeah. And that's where we're actually afraid to engage because that engagement is a reflection of our values that maybe we like clean stoops and swept stoops. And we don't like to have dirt or garbage accumulated on them. And that's, that's what I think. But. Maybe, maybe I'm nervous that somebody else wants it differently. So I don't want to. Put myself out there take that risk, that my sense of stewardship conflicts with somebody else's. And so I think. There's these swirling influences of. Of excuses and I think fear and the lack of trust and compassion. That result in everybody kind of engaging in their own bubbles that travel through space. But not actually being stewards of the space. I think that's sort of what you saw. This morning is nobody was a steward of that space to say, this is where I like to get my coffee. This is strange. It's unusual for this. What do we do? Hey, everybody else who gets their coffee here, let's take a minute. And, and. Have a conversation about this.
a.m.:Nobody owned that space. Everyone was transacting. And as long as my transactions. Carry forward. It is what it is. Right.
Ben:I think that's this kind of that's a sad. That makes me feel sad. Visceral level. Kind of sad right now to think of. An unowned space. And own the space fuels. Feels comforting. The idea of a space that has a steward that is being maintained. And, you know, when you end up with something that is it's effectively. Unopened, even if it's literally. That's, that's not like a, it's a lacking in. And human character.
a.m.:And owned. You know, for, for, for, for the 12 of you listening. Hi, Joan. You know, carries a certain, like it has an economic sort of, you know, Grounding is intimidate. I mean, owned in the sense. I think we're all saying the same thing, but I want to say it out loud, owned a sense of like you own your kids. Right. You own your kids, but that's not a possession. It's not an asset. It's not a right. There's. There's a stewardship, but it's even bigger than that. Right? Transactions and transactionalism inherently subvert. It's a paradox because transactions and transactionalism are necessary. But they inherently subvert. This thing I'm pointing to around ownership and they subvert humanity, right? And all economies do that. And by economies, I don't just mean like capitalism and, you know, whatever. I mean like, like right now we, we have scheduled time. And, and at whatever it is, I've one 30 or two o'clock or whatever. I don't have my calendar for me, but yeah, two o'clock somebody else has my time. Right. That's an economy. It's an economy of time. And it'll invite me to, like, we can at 1 55, have a really. Beautiful thing happening. Right where you're sharing something that is like, Hey. And my alarm goes off. And I was like, I got to get the Kyley. In that economy of time will invite me out of my humanity here. We'll invite me out of having an ownership of this experience.
Ben:I forgive you.
a.m.:Yeah. That's not happening. But I'm saying you should. I'm just thinking about the value economies by transactional. I mean, At all scales of the fair, right? Yeah. And so going to get the cup of coffee. That microtransaction and my focus on that transaction invites me out of ownership for the space I'm walking through. Yeah. And the awareness I need to bring to every moment. And the remain owner while I transact. Hm, versus just transacting is work that we do not do any more in the world, but was central to the work you did. If you got born into a culture.
Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom. This is A. M. Bott, and you know, conversation, real human conversation never actually ends, but episodes of podcasts need to. So we're going to end here. You can connect with me on Instagram and TikTok at, at Absurd Wisdom. You can find DAE on Instagram at dae. community or online at mydae. org. Absurd Wisdom is produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE, and we'll be back with more Conversation Beyond Understanding next Thursday.
