absurd wisdom
What lies beyond understanding? Beyond certainty? Listen in to conversations between a.m. bhatt and colleagues, confidants, and important thinkers as they tackle questions both timely and timeless, and chat about maintaining your humanity in an ever-evolving world.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and Substack at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
absurd wisdom
Ruts & Resets, Social Justice is Never Done, The Practice of Manifesting, and Befriending Your Inner Critic
In this episode the team discuss various aspects of life, particularly focusing on concepts of change, personal growth, and human potential. They engage in a discussion around 'ruts' and 'resets', drawing personal experiences and insights into how these states can affect one's life, work, and mental well-being. By diving into topics of education, critical pedagogy, and intersectionality, they draw connections between personal development and wider social justice issues. Furthermore, the conversation reveals perspectives on handling stuck states or 'ruts' either through shifts in physical environment or mindset. They also discuss the relevance of critical pedagogical practices in education and societal change. Towards the end, the discussion shifts towards restorative practices and involving students in design aspects of learning, bolstering the idea of continued growth and adaptation. The conversation wraps up acknowledging the vital role of student-alumni interactions in fostering a rich learning experience.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
Hey the voices in today's conversation are Kyley Komschlies, Sam Ascencio, Victor Rios, and our producer, as always, is Scott Amore. All are colleagues of mine at DAE Let's listen in. It's always been a sort of interest for me, me personally, but in development work, it has always become something that, that at some point or another needs to get focused on with a person is the, you know, propensity we have. To just find a track and stick to that track, and then just go on autopilot with it. So. Big ways, small ways. Ordering the same thing for lunch, all the way up to staying in a job 12 years longer than you should have. You know, etc.
Kyley:Reading this, it made me think about ruts. and Like, how do you even understand if you're in a rut? And I say that because like, contemplating my life, like, my life has a fair bit of diversity and also ruts. But one time in my life where I did the same thing every day for like six months. I got up, I ate breakfast, packed up my tent, I walked for 12 hours, I put down my tent, I made dinner, I ate food, I went to sleep, But if, like every day for six months. Did not feel like a rut. But I can come and do something, like, in the rest of my life, I can do different things, I can eat different places, I can see different people, and feel very rut. And that is an interesting, like, wondering, thinking about the difference between those two things. For me it's not just the thing that you do.
a.m.:That's exactly the conversation we had, I guess, two weekends ago now that prompted this topic. Yeah.
Scott:So a lot of people, I know thrive on routine. Becomes comfortable for a period of time and then can develop into a rut without knowledge of the rut. Necessarily until you wake up one day and say, Oh my god, I don't feel good. I don't feel like anything. I don't feel like doing this. I don't feel like doing anything else, that kind of stuff. And, you know, It's probably amplified when you have caretaking as part of that as well.
a.m.:I mean, what you're describing Kyley is, is, is monastery life, right? Like it is. The exact same thing, in the exact same sequence, every single day. Four the gong goes off, four twenty you're downstairs sitting in meditation, blah blah blah blah, right? And you know, you used the second the three words that I think hang together me in this conversation, right? ruts, it's routines, rituals, So what I hear you say was a ritual. It a ritualistic relationship to a repeated pattern, yeah. is a very habituated relationship to a pattern where like, I'm there, you know, the thing just I'm just going, right, versus a ritual is it is absolutely the same thing and over, but I'm really there. And the routine is sort of maybe where you start off and then it collapses into, you know, rut or ritual.
Kyley:Yeah. Something I noticed different about that is that like, If I didn't pack up my tent, I didn't get to walk. If I didn't put out my tent, I got wet. If I didn't make dinner, I didn't eat dinner. And I was aware of that all the time. As opposed to now when I just call somebody and have them order pitaziki, delivered to my house it doesn't have the same, like, whatever, it may be.
Sam:I was going to say, I was actually really interested in this, I actually decided to do research on this. And, Specifically, I was kind of focused on like, ruts in terms of social change and critical pedagogy. So I found this really interesting research that kind of defined what, ruts were for social justice oriented people, or social oriented justice movements. My notes here, but ruts can manifest as complacency, burnout, or the repetition of strategies, that no longer effectively address the evolving landscape, of injustice. Ruts result from being too comfortable with certain approaches, with the daunting nature of systemic issues that seem insurmountable, or the disillusionment with the pace of progress. So, that last part was kind of what I was kind thinking about, was like, that wasn't, you weren't disillusioned because it felt like in your way. Like, that was your progress, like you still felt like that was meaningful to you. And so, I was kind of thinking about this idea of like, well, when you're in a rut and you're kind of faced with these systemic issues, and there's this big disillusionment happening, like, what are the tools that we're given in society to actually cope with these things, and I found that there's this tool, it's called MCII, and It's But I was looking into it and basically the whole thing is about imagining the thing you want to do right? Like the person you're going to be, the kind person you have to be to, to complete this thing, right? And then trying to think of the steps that you have to take and focusing only on those steps. And that is like, kind of the way that I've read on how you get out of ruts, which I find really interesting because I did try it this week to see if that worked. Absolute failure. did not work at all. I was like, I'm going to, be this really studious student that cares about the work even if I'm not connected to this class. And got burnout. Almost in two weeks. Even if I made every step, even if I was like, only ten minutes, it just didn't work.
a.m.:So, so what you're saying, Sam, is you're, opening up an aspect of this that didn't even, you know, wasn't even part what I thinking the topic, right? So, so, I was thinking about and I think, Kyley, you were speaking to as well, this sort you know, pattern in my life, or like thing I do, right? But you're interesting a really interesting thing, for me at least. Where, you know, it is connected to issues of progress, right? It is a lack of, progress in an area. I, almost hear what you're saying. Like, like. rut in the sense of stagnation? Yeah, that fair? Okay, cool. I just want clarify that. I heard that. a whole nother wrinkle in this conversation.
Kyley:Yeah, I'm glad you separated those.'cause I definitely see those as different rut has, has motion for me with No it just is, it's my Kyley just, we're gonna get up and do the thing. We're gonna get up and do the thing. gonna get up and do the thing. we're get that's In Yeah.
a.m.:Yeah. I'm hearing. Sam introduced this is, rut. Like wheels are stuck Yeah. in the mud and maybe crawling along.
Kyley:yeah, different kind of frustration.
a.m.:Is this your one of these,
Victor:Mm
a.m.:We We can
Scott:probably,
a.m.:bring you I,
Scott:listen
a.m.:of in organically as you so, yeah. tell.
Victor:I didn't have any context for
a.m.:yeah, yeah.
Victor:was like, let me just jump in. Maybe I'm just
Kyley:just showing up and being like, Yes, we're gonna do a thing. It's great.
Victor:Yeah. I've never had a conversation around ruts and, know, was it ruts and, resets.
Kyley:gotta have the alliteration to really get the title to
Victor:Ah, I was just thinking of the linguistics, you know, ruts, it's a Down sort of depressed sort of state and resets going back up a little I appreciate just being here.
a.m.:This podcast, Victor, is like everything else. It's a Trojan horse. You know, the podcast at least this version of the podcast is an excuse of something that critical and we weren't making enough time for, which is faculty and administrative staff and people hanging talking about the but sort of, you broader pieces around how we about life and and then we publish it as podcast. But, but really, know, hopefully people are getting value it. I, I, I've, I've some interesting feedback recently, so I, I know some people are listening and, and enjoying it, but the primary actually give us a, a structured way engage.
Sam:I was actually doing more on just social justice but something I was thinking about, was like, critical pedagogy which is like, you know, how we teach and all these, these things, and I was, actually thinking about, because you've been in education, One of the research things that I, I kind of pulled up was talking about how research and critical pedagogy, intersects with ruts and these research, and one of the things that I found, was, When it comes to research and critical pedagogy a lot of, when we're like, understanding, ruts, it's under, like, involves recognizing how educational practices fall into ruts, right, and how they perpetuate these traditional methods that are not effective to engage students, and doesn't challenge these existing power structures in the classroom. I was kind of interested since, you've been in education and you've seen these things and not necessarily as a teacher, but on the outside, like, what are your thoughts on, like, the connection between, like, critical education, pedagogy and, and ruts, specifically for staff and students?
Victor:How do we tackle that giant question. right? So from an organizational standpoint, like I've been part of an organization where like I, when I started it was like complete social justice minded, anti racist work and then seeing. And how people influence that sometimes in negative ways. Sometimes in positive ways, and it's not one or the other. It can be sort of like moving along at the same time. but I've seen it go way down. right? so where you can instill social justice as like you need to go into a classroom and have this this frame. But people come to it with, with their own biases. And unless organizationally it's a sustained sort of work and pushed, you can cause some really big harm to the people you're serving in my case, students, families, the community as So, unless, again, it's a completely sustained org wide kind of thing, and being able to recognize when you're falling short and working on those things if there isn't ways for you to evaluate that and work on those things intentionally, then, then you can cause more harm than, than, what you started with. You may just stick to your traditional pedagogy of, like, You get your point A and you need to get a point b and get those results, but changing the dynamic and not having a clear focus and a drive for it, can, in the end, be worse than what you're currently struggling with or the traditional, way of looking at I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah.
Sam:Well, it makes a lot of sense. it's funny because in the research I was was reading and doing all this fun stuff. It was, They were actually talking about, like, if you're not constantly challenging the systems, like these, these, you know, inequities. Like, if people don't feel the need to be involved, like that's kind of when that, like that stuck rut happens. and that's when a reset is, like, necessary to kind of reassess. And I think that's kind of what you're speaking to. Like, an education that, like, ruts are harmful not only for, like, our internal well being, our internal systems, right? Like, there's something, like, gunking it up, But, like, when that happens, it can have this, like, micro effect to a macro and affect not only ourselves, but the people around us, and, like, kind of poison these systems that we want to, like, support and care about, and then, effectively, You know, halt social justice movements. I don't think that's something that's talked about is, like, the role of education, and, like, these educators who need the systemic support and are not getting it and are falling into ruts, and need a Reset, and they have no space or resources to do so.
Victor:Often times you hear from teachers when you go into this social justice frame let's discipline let's get rid of discipline, and let's go into this restorative mode. rid of the discipline, and let's go into this restorative mode If teachers don't feel like they're supported or they're learning about restorative practices, and they just fall into this rut of thinking, students just get to do whatever the hell they want. We need to come down hard on them. And so then you have this whole other swing in the, opposite direction you want it to go. Where it's like, we need more, we can't have the student in this space. So you become exclusionary again. cause that's been the traditional education model where if, if you come to a community and the community doesn't have buy in into your education system, then you have this oppositional thing where like students go into the system because by law they have to go into that system. And then the system is just it's now recognized as the school to prison pipeline, right? It just, becomes like we're just, excluding them and hopefully the criminal justice system, will take care of it. at some point. And some people are okay with it. know? it, luckily the trend has been in the opposite direction, but It's still a pretty major part of our society as a whole.
a.m.:So, the two you, you know have a much more formal grounding in, in justice theory actually.
Sam:praxis.
a.m.:Yeah, yeah, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Scott:So
a.m.:I want want to test something in what think I'm hearing you say. One phenomena in organizations in general on human issues is the delusion you can done.. And the idea that you can be done with thing is what creates, you know, a version right? And social justice, imagine you can't be done with it. It's
Kyley:like, oh, we're done. Great.
a.m.:now just execute right? that part of what what I'm hearing, you know, taking the approach of there is no done. It part we do. Yeah.
Sam:Oh absolutely. I don't know if y'all have ever heard the term of like positionality and reflexivity. But positionality is kind of when like researchers or people who doing something kind of look in themselves and kind of understand their intersectional aspects. Like, what parts of my identity are like affecting what I'm doing, what I'm teaching, what I'm looking at, how I choose to approach these things. Why I'm choosing these specific topics right? And oftentimes when we're talking about positionality, it's kind of like just, all right, cool. I looked at it, I assess it, cool, I understand it, that's it, right? That's kind of the perspective. But then there's this idea, it's like all right, it doesn't stop there. We have what's called reflexivity. Which is this active ongoing process of looking at how you're developing things, whether it's a research project. curriculum, development, club work, anything you're doing, for anybody, any social justice movement, even yourself, whatever you're choosing. to do, You're constantly looking at yourselves, your influences, and how it's affecting every single piece of what you're doing, not just one thing. And the beautiful part about that is is when you engage with other individuals Like in this collaborative process, you're doing in a collaborative way. You're having other people challenge you from the outside, other people assessing, you know, what you're looking and having these open conversations. that allows you to be more holistic with what you're creating for people, but also acknowledging, right, minoritized groups that you may not be a part of. right Your voice is going to inherently have a bias. and when you allow these individuals to see, you know, who you are, this reflexive part who you are, this reflexive process, you create something holistic in conjunction with these participants, you know, and like, you're allowing them to become a piece of that, and I think that's a core part of social justice, is it doesn't stop. Like, abolitionism all about creating positive pathways to success, and positive pathways to success are about getting us the things we need and want. in life. Food, water, internet, happiness, joy, community, all of those Things do not just come at one step. They're continuous. They evolve with the way the world evolves, with the way communities evolve, with how things evolve, right? With the way we're affected by these outside factors and understanding them and being reflexive about that is an important part of being, I think. A practitioner of social justice, in my opinion. I'll Let Victor speak more to that since. heh.
Victor:You said it all. Sam ha ha said ha ha ha ha and falling into a rut, right, just means that those things aren't happening. and are but the, reset has to come with with that understanding of, you have to be reflective of, of your practices. On all levels, you know, whether, teacher or administrator or student or a family in the community. Everybody has to have a piece in, in, how these things shape out over time. And I think opening up space often times hits the, the wall of power. Of folks who think of themselves as being holders of power and being the arbitrators of it. And when that dynamic sort of Is that play? Often times you just get into this rut again of we're, we're just gonna be in an oppositional stance and not really work in, in tandem.
a.m.:you know, kind ruts and resets, right? reset implications. Okay, you're in a rut, now, you know, how do you reset? But. I I think I also mentioned in the kind tee to this is, there proactive are, practices to avoid the ruts. Whether, you know, I was originally thinking of in the context of one's life. obviously this conversation is, you know I mean, a interest to us. Given what we're doing here, right? But then personally, interesting, because it's new territory, it continues to be, and what I love about having you two here is, you know, again, the, the, the the praxis. In areas we commitment to, you know, Kyley and I are deeply committed to, not our field, right? And so now, so, proactive right, what you just spoke to, what have you seen effective proactive practices in, in these kind spaces? And we don't to use an example if it weird, but, I'd love use us an example if we can, right? But, but generically, practices to keep this thing alive?
Sam:So, when I think about this, often times come back to social entrepreneurship, a lot of the concepts of social entrepreneurship, which is a lot of what guides my practice actually. And something that came to this conclusion in a lot of my readings was like, a couple things. One, that questions come from the inside, not the out. Oftentimes with, at least in education, we're looking at this ivory tower and we're often speaking about these things, these theoretical ideas. We're talking about minoritized groups, but we're not in those communities actively having those conversations. and I think one of the really nice things, about working here, especially with the fact that we have so many, you know, programs going on at the same time, you get to actively see how the things we're implementing affect these students in real time. And you get to pivot such a way that you get to see if a change happens, and I think that's a big part of me and Victor's role is, you know, trying to figure out what that looks like for students. But, another part is realizing that communities know what they need. You know, you can have all of the resources to provide for that community, but inherently students and communities you're serving know what they need. Like if I ask a student, like, what's going on? Like, where are we at? It's like, I just have a lot going on. I have school, they can list it out in detail if I ask the right questions. And I think that's a big part of, of developing this is, is asking questions, and asking the right questions, and realizing that those questions are not going to have answers, they're just going to have more questions, and, using that.
a.m.:That's great. I mean, that a core do and so feel good you, you validated Sam, it
Sam:Amazing.
a.m.:I And this is aspirational statement, right? I know that we, you know, there's always work to do. It's not a, you know, we're not there. like, my hope and intention is this is a question. Right? when someone comes in, the place is question that need to get really benefits from getting engaged with. And so i, I yeah, thank you for response. really, it's and, and it's well, it. affirming and, and maybe clarifying that, you know, on the kind of more I don't know if formal is the word, but I'll use it. I don't know, better formal social work a similar. Understanding of how to proceed, you know. how do you do for bring it back to personal growth, humaning.
Sam:I'm going but I'll say for me, after. I, I tried like all of the research that, cause I, I really wanted to feel what this was about with ruts And I tried that, you know, that MCII, where I was like, all right, cool, Like, I am studying prehistory of gender right now. I love gender studies. You would think I would like this. I like history and gender studies. It's just, I don't. like the way this professor teaches, right? But I understand that they have a lot of, different things going on, right? And these things are affecting me, right? So I was like, let me try this visualization. I'm going to do this, it's going to be great, and, then I try to think of all the feelings associated with it, Like I'm going to complete the assignment, I'm going to feel good about myself, right? And when I really looked at it, I realized that was just something I was telling myself, like, I'll be honest. I was on the Kool Aid on that one. Full, full stop. Like, have been this problematic child since high school where I've been like, I don't, know why we're learning this. I hate this thing burn the system, like I've always this person. And I recently come to this realization is like, I am not that person. I'm very much against the system, but I'm not, against, like, the system in such a way that I want it abolished. Like, never here, I want reframed in such a way that it's healthy and holistic, right? And I don't think that's a big want. But I also recognize, like, that doesn't have to come at the cost of one's mental health. And I'm seeing a lot of who I am as person and the students I'm working with. Like, I've had, students who are like, I'm not worth anything. if I don't get into an Ivy league. And the way I look, them, like, are you me? like, whoa, This is a trip, and I got over my burnout. because What I started to do is just recognize, like, this. this doesn't serve me. Like, this doesn't serve me in the way that I need. Like, I'm not gonna be, my worth is not gonna be determined by these grades, by this thing, I'm doing, However, I can take this experience for what it is, acknowledge that I'm just not here for it, acknowledge that what I necessarily need is just this degree to get to this point, but I can explore in such a way that I, like, in the way that I want, So I went to my professor and I was like, listen, I'll be honest with you, I care nothing about your reading. I don't care. But this one thing you gave me, I loved. And, I went through your archive of work, and here's what I loved about what you did. You're a this is what I'm looking for. Is that possible? And they lit up. They were like, absolutely. I'll send you these extra articles. And I was like, cool. This is like 30 articles you sent me. And I am willing to read every single one. That is more than the reading. that I have gotten for this class. so far. Because what I recognized is like, I needed pathway that was different, having that pathway allowed me to learn the same thing. And I think just when comes to ruts with ourselves, it's recognizing that you don't have to follow the same path as everyone else. You can have your routines, you can, you can have your ruts. you can acknowledge where that comes from for you You can acknowledge that, you know, maybe you're receiving these outside ideas of what you need to be, of who you need to be, and step away from that and realize, like, maybe the thing you just need to do is just like, punch in, you know, what I mean punch in that thing, that day, like, whatever. that thing is, just send it, and then find your pathway in a different way. Like, there are some things we just have to do. There are some students who are not going to like math class, as long as they find a way to engage in that, that's a way that's meaningful to them, right? Whether that's meeting with your friend, and just getting through one math problem. that You really found tough, Like, that's one step to finding a pathway that works for You You may not like it by the end of it, you might be like, I never want to touch math again. but you took it in such a way. that was meaningful to you, and created pathway that mattered to you, and you learned something new. Like, maybe math wasn't you, but you figured out, like, hey, I'm really good at getting through this textbook and figuring this out to the point that it's like, all right, leave me alone. Like, That's your thing. You know what I mean? And I say that students, here. There are some times where I was like, they did not want to do the design course, some of them. They were like, I'm just, this is not for me. But when they were challenged, it's like, okay, cool. like, what are some other contexts we can put this into? They just flourished. You when they were given, when our Spanish students were given different contexts. to explore these concepts, they flourished. Like, I was challenged with questions every day when we create different spaces. you can do that for yourself. You can recreate your environment for yourself. I think that's, that would be my thing. I don't know how everyone else gets through it, but that's, that's how I got through mine.
a.m.:that last sentence the, the last few words, recreate your space. that, that big thing for me physical changes. Like, I if I feel that I'm in you know, know pattern that I'm just, you know, I will physical before I do anything else. Like, so literally like, stuff sounds dumb on from the outside, would literally shoes that feel, make feel, feel different. I will change my exercise routine, I will, you know, whatever. then my environment, I will just change. I'll like move around and I'll whatever. And so, it's all I, I'm just so in, in, you know, and, and just kind you know, more embodied than anything else. And so that's, one of my practices to reset is just physically change things, you know, both in myself and my environment. I find that's effective at for, you know, coming back to being present and, and, and redesigning.
Sam:Yeah. but that's you acknowledging who you are, you know? what I mean? Like the things that work for you and that's a big part of it. I don't a lot of people realize it's like, alright, I have to do what all these like grinder youTubers I gotta be this entrepreneur, I gotta, like, I gotta do, like, sell shoes, I gotta do, you know, whatever your thing is, it's like, that's great. Do that thing For you. as long as it brings you. joy in the way that works for you. That's reorganizing your space, if that's moving your furniture at 3 a. m. Do it as long as the thing that you want to get done gets done. That's, that's all that matters. And you enjoy that process, even if it's the smallest amount.
a.m.:Yeah. Human beings, and we you know, because we did innovation work, we say this a lot. Human lot. do not benefit from practices mindset. Machines You know, machinery from beings wither in a mindset, know, and that's what I'm hearing say the kind of influences. I'm like, here's You me.
Scott:What I'm hearing is, setting systems where you can have reliable feedback from groups. but then, somehow, you know, pivoting that to be internal feedback. Like take your own temperature. kind of thing, like what's going
Sam:absolutely.
a.m.:The, the on. could, you know, people on YouTube that could be useful. And so few of them. Hopefully we do some of this actually some of the feedback I've gotten recently, I think we are doing some, some of this at least in very narrow way is people give you best practice on to do, but people who give you questions and inquiries. That, that then invites you to, know, find your own answers to to things. I mean, what you know, I don't know, good philosophy, there such thing? The handful of, you philosophy useful is what It doesn't answer a damn thing and but, but, but opens you know. It creates an invitation to, to, you know, okay, Now what what
Kyley:Actually, something, something that you said, is like the idea of being able to get feedback. And I remember like contemplating ruts and times in my life where I've wanted resets, but I've also been just like alone. And When by yourself, like I think that's where like, you're speaking to the philosophy comes into place, where it's like at least gives you someone else to be asking questions. And whether you're at least bouncing your, your your thoughts off someone else's ideas at least. because I find that, like, if I'm, contemplating my existence by myself, I gently spiral into insanity. Gently. soft. Just like, it's not like it's an automatic thing, but like, I start getting caught in my own loops. I start getting caught in my own thought processes and without a path to, to to explore those or expand them. Like, that's when it's just like, you just I just keep getting wrapped up in me. And that hasn't been useful, and so the reading, and the journaling, and some of that, being able to bounce your ideas, at least, off of a different perspective is huge for, for, me, understanding and finding ways to shift, which is kind of what sometimes, how I use, like YouTube videos and stuff where it's like, I don't know that you're right but at least you give me another, like, thought process. around this.
Sam:that's a great DBT skill right there. like, with myself, is, when dialectical therapy. you start to it's, lot of people fall into that exact thing. you know. it's it's a lot of like, all right, like if I keep questioning, thing, if I keep bashing this thing, I'm going to figure it out, but, you know. like, sometimes, like, continuing question thing is not going to be the solution, you know? And I think like a lot of people I think This is something I've seen in, like, at least. with myself, is you question something so much, you start to make facts out of those feelings and questions And you start to, like, Like, well, if this question came up here, and this thing came here, And Therefore this thing is truth therefore everybody hates me, And I'm not gonna be good this thing, and gonna fail, And I'm gonna be horrible, and Oh my god, why would I even do this? And then you're like great your but, like, usually what takes is just, like, you going up to friend, like, Am I bad at this? And your friends like, no! no, dude. Why I love you and you're like, oh, yeah, like Yeah, I can do that thing like that. Yeah, that's that's good. And I think just that key part of it is I don't think people acknowledge that. but That part is like, a big part of getting over your rut is having someone to just tell you like, dude, do the thing. Who cares if you're bad? at it? Do the thing. Like, I, I'm terrible ropes courses. I'm terrified of heights. Recently, my my partner who's also scared of heights, like, let's just go do one. And I was like, I'm how am I gonna do this? I'm terrified of heights. And I just, I was just, I like, you know what, this is my tactic, I'm just gonna look at a pole and just go for it, Like, just go for it, and I went through the whole course, and I was like, I could never see myself doing that. that would have been a rut me, like, I felt terrible that day, I was like, oh my god, I'm terrible at school, I'm never gonna do this thing, and I'm like, I just had a different perspective, which was high in the air, terrified for my life, but I survived because I had this little cable on me, you know what I mean? I trusted that cable, in the same way I trust my support group, I trust my friends. You have to trust yourself, your thoughts, and your worth, you know? You are able To do something
Scott:Big part of trust yourself
Victor:Quiet the inner critic
Sam:like, thank you for coming. I love that you're here, I call him, Jeff. thank you for love that you're here. Take hike.
a.m.:I, I, I to slightly challenge that Victor, like, I don't think I, I find that I have found for myself any attempts to quiet only make it louder. And so it's, it's for me not quieting the inner critic, it's befriending the inner critic, understanding what, what wants. Why? Because I found that all my like I get one, the most common one me, I've got so much evidence that point to, to my, for myself that I know my shit. And that I'm really good in front people. And yet, every single like weeks ago I did that panel. Every single time, I haven't named my voice, but I got one 1 of my voices. pops and it says the same thing for the dude, you're not ready. You didn't prepare this. You didn't even think about this properly. You're not ready. This is This is where you're gonna found this is the one they're find out you know you're doing. Like that guaranteed 30 and of doing this And can't silence to your point with Jeff like I can befriend it I gonna send like what that voice is about just trying to protect and can I can see the origin of and what you know formed and all this right? And so know again for me I don't you know live in anybody else's head me, it's like I've found trying to silence it futile and eventually sort And then reassuring no, no, we're cool. Right. Like I get it, I Thank you. absolutely to concerned, but we're good.
Sam:That's that childhood wounded self, you know what I mean? That inherent fear that we won't be accepted, but we're human, social creatures, of course, like, we're all going make mistakes go through these things, it's important that we acknowledge that those wounds exist. And, this is a thing I don't think a lot of people recognize, a friend said this to me, and God bless her, her name is Jill. love her to death. she once said to me, she was like, you are never alone in life. Because, right, your adult, self has built all of these things, all of these skills, and is perfectly capable of doing these things. you are now the adult. that childhood you needed. Remember that. Because you, adult, you, will always have your back in the ways that are most necessary. for the you that you needed. You became the adult that you needed then. And you will always strive to be. that better person for yourself. And that changed my life.
a.m.:Is such an you to family like kind Sort to like you know, whatever if really look is some version of that fear. Mm-Hmm. that's here. And be version you two weeks ago because it in what right. And, and need not challenged, can, you know, it certainly is. And fascinating It's Oh this, this me having right. I've, I've not encountered before. But previous of and freaked
Sam:Hmm. be this person who surpasses this thing. and I think that's like, I think, in reading this I feel like that's what that MCII is like trying talk about, is like, visualize, like, the you who got through this, connect to that person. Like, that's great for some people, it doesn't work for me. But just simply acknowledging, like, you may not like that thing. There's all of these mixed parts of yourself, this intersectional parts of yourself that are coming. into play Acknowledging them is okay. and acknowledging them, maybe, like, you just don't like, that thing, okay, you know what I that's
a.m.:you've you've enough, I to mental and implementation. An NIH article
Sam:is
a.m.:the first thing that
Sam:popped
a.m.:up. Alright,
Sam:so Yeah, mental contrasting. Yeah, it's just like, oh, do you want to be like, I don't know, in a rock band? Okay, cool. To be in a rock band, you have to be a singer. To be a singer, you have to do singing lessons. And like, Imagine how great you'll feel when you get the first singing lesson. I don't work for me. I'm a pessimist.
a.m.:mean, on first blush a, perhaps rigorous or, science y version of what people talk about with manifestation right.
Sam:Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. rolling my
a.m.:take going I'm manifesting,
Sam:Just I'll just, manifest it. Just believe it'll happen. yeah. like, no. absolutely is I respect those researchers. but absolutely. not.
a.m.:I knew think I had somebody close to me, had a conversation about this manifesting thing because she this. and, And, I liked her take on it. because just, do, just do the work. All right. but, but, she had really interesting on that and I was like, that do. take was what, what, for her, you know, meant by manifesting is the thing that I'm out right? So you know, a job or whatever, right? It's, I'm doing I'm not just passively, I'm doing the my engagement it as You know, the of the day, my thing is, to express having So, proactively expressing gratitude for having thing. And then still doing get And that, fascinating. Like, energetically, can behind like, it's, expressing, basically stepping, and so to what saying, I made the connection before, it basically she's doing, I, you that can frame she's stepping self, who gotten is expressing gratitude for but doing the present. Like, I as, if nothing else, a
Sam:absolutely.
a.m.:You know? to keep from at and to grounded already, know, but do to get there.
Scott:Yeah, I think that's totally how I perceive it as well. I've been doing working with therapists, You kind of, works that way for a long time now, almost 20 years. And it's the sense of in a way, it's cultivating humility. When you're looking at ruts and deficits and stuff in your life, and figuring out what might be the way that you want to head, and, in my experience, is like, you know, it's not necessarily putting a picture of a mansion on your vision board and waiting for it to come. It's more about like putting yourself in the place where you're open to try something that you might not have even thought of in the first place. and you're thankful for the opportunity and if it doesn't work. out. You just kind of pivot and keep going. Cultivating that humility and befriending that inner critic, I think, is part of it too. Like you said, the inner critic basically the seed of humility you know, going forward as well. People who learn how to completely silence it and ignore it are the ones that are tearing the world apart.
a.m.:Because they're not silencing it, right? It's, still acting out through them. They're just ignoring
Scott:They're ignoring it. And continuing as, like, well, especially in social justice, too, you know, like, people come in, and Like, I'm gonna fix everything. I'm gonna fix this whole place. and then the city, and then the country. and those are the ones that are like, doing the most harm, I think. You know, if you look at it from a very High, high level.
Sam:I, I don't know if of y'all have ever read, like, Peggy McIntosh's Invisible knapsack of Privilege. But, oh, it's you've read it, but
a.m.:I the is worth alone.
Sam:No please, because It's it's great, just, all right. so, this is just like the recap of it. but Basically, it's just this white woman who's like, You know, like, we're all like, inherently like racist, like we all have really biases, you know, we got to be careful, you know, you be careful all the time, like, you know all just, you know, we always think like we're like, racist, like I'm colorblind, like, no, hun, like, you gotta, you gotta acknowledge it, right? So that's what she's saying, right? She's like, You know, sometimes you, you think, oh, you know, you, invite your, like, colleagues in who are, like, people of color, and you're like, know, come discuss, and they'll, like, start saying something, and, like, Kyley be like, yeah, like, okay, Kyley, cool, you said your thing. anyway, so, back to me, and a lot of people don't realize they do this. and so, she's like, you know, we've gotta recognize, like, our inherent privilege, even if we understand these social justice concepts, we understand intersectionality we understand, you know, feminism? Like, all of these things are great. Like, my favorite thing is like, people with patriarchy. People are like, I know what patriarchy is! And I had this There was this really great guy the other day that was Like, patriarchy is when men, impose on women. I was like, I can't wait you start reading about same sex, like, patriarchy when that comes, that's be great. But, and so then it was right great, because She read whole and I was like, wow, this is so great. Wow, like this really taught us about, like, you know, addressing our inherent biases, right? This, this this this, white woman, this other white woman, I forget their name, but it's a really great article. It's addressing like, white intersectionality from, like, a poor white trash perspective and it. was a response to Peggy McIntosh's thing. It was like, that's great. I love what you have to say, but what if you're the person who's like, doesn't have the ability to have that educated? What if you're the person who's lower class and like, you know, considered trash by society and like, you're basically treated the same way that you treat your, like, colleagues of color. Like, you're being treated the same way that you treat, like, these racists treat people of color because you're considered less than. What then? Where did your invisible one at? I have to, be like, I have to feel bad about myself and consistently apologize. It was this. really great, like, dichotomy between the two, and I think that's just, like, a really great point to, like, social justice. It's like a lot of people are like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix the thing, like, I've read all these books. I have a PhD, I can fix the thing. And It's like and then they get to the ivory tower, and they're like, wow, the view up here is great. And they go back down to the community. And the community is like, Dude, you're terrible. Leave. And I did all the work! by yourself without listening to anyone else. And like, then you created a rut for your system because you cut out everyone. You started living in a bubble. That's the problem. And I don't think a lot of, people realize, like, like we've been saying, everything is continuous. You can't just stop, but you can't just think you just made it to the top. Like, oh, you manifested this great job, you did all these things, you're gonna fix. Like, you know, like that meme. where It's like, we did it. We solved racism. It's over. It's like, we're never going to experience it again. Like that's never going to happen. Like you can't solve racism, but you can address it in such a way, right? That you can give voice to the people who can help us move, towards more positive pathways. But we're never going to solve it. It's just not going to be a thing. But we can start to understand it in such a way that we can give more people the tools to address like these microcosms of it.
a.m.:Been here in the background thinking like, there is no done. I think, think I don't I'm, you unduly we do least a decent, hopefully a good job with with some these things in And the conversation is not overt for students. yet. and one of the things that i'd love to out for next year is do we have the conversation be more overt theoretical there's more about like that's like And too, I, I'm not suggesting we solve for live on, But, but it just, just, you it to me you know, part the progression of, these things, right? Is, to, you're using as a of engagement. can you make it, know, you tools the hands of? them and them, you know I'm not how in everything else. got get done and we don't need to solve that's what I'm thinking.
Kyley:I think part of it is, as we expand, like, as we start locking in the. the product, the process of the thing. It lets us opportunity one, to feel comfortable with that, which I think is we're finally getting to. and then lets us then work on how do we make connections with people, Cause like these people in the room can have a conversation, I don't know what the other conversations is outside, like how do you have a conversation, where you can bring other people in other perspectives and also feel comfortable that they. They can approach it in a way that's thoughtful. and curious and not from their ivory tower. or whatever it may be.
a.m.:So to
Kyley:that. Yeah.
a.m.:and what this Right. Right. Well, that's, and that's kind of what I'm pointing to. where It's like we all have, Victor's education manager. Right? He has a very specific, like that's his role him, him bringing up this topic and conversation has automatically brings a flavor, me bringing it automatically. favor, You bring it automatically a flavor. And finding people who don't have already set up identity for them can be potentially a useful way to approach that. You know, and then those conversations, we can help wrap them in.
Victor:Even just posing the question to Students and letting them lead is, I think, I've seen work magic. in the past, know, which is where students here's where restorative practices are. How do you envision them? Here's what they, what they say they are what do you envision in your space here at school? and just allowing room for their voice too. to have impact I think would an approach.
a.m.:I had woman tuesday, introduced by a friend. thank you, Joan. I know Joan She's great. staff. be to, she's with us. And, most of her work is in her historical work is in non-profit, in in and five years took a swing know, kind of a for profit, for profit role. and, and considering her thing. But, her big emphasis, Instead of questions, she asked me around, you what do making things, right? how Are you engaging in design students on, you know on the I said, you again, is one of many things we, have as an intention and an an approach, but far formal, you know so, so my point just, there may be to, to, in of to as to conversation or in addition to conversations, in, find that the we start design in source is can we introduce in, you some get you know, restorative justice conversations that context of design, right? Like those some of and then to your I it's absolutely bringing, somebody her As You you role based with But to conversation and they're vetted. That kind thing is pointing to around evolve would be amazing to do. I forget to do, sounds aspirational. I think we have obligation to moving more and more in directions. We've earned, you the, the we've done the become stable. We've done the to, you produce the kind outcomes that get funded. And think now we obligation to more, you formalize these sort things. You know, noone going to ding for not doing it. But I think we collectively would lose interest if we didn't.
Kyley:Had a tactical idea that I was like what if we bring back students from the past and have them come in and do a, do a design sprint or hackathon around our program, ones who've completed successfully have shown commitment. Have pizza, and start some of those conversations with the students that are like, in it for the game.
a.m.:Yeah, I, I think all that, about, know, there's about body of alumni point. There's backlog of my so many of you know, god I just ran one yesterday an event we're when, when when, you Tuesday has been on hiatus for a very long time. Like, I know, will start, but we've who outside the design. and the whatever or, you human practitioners, who are really reliable for, you know, actually listening to human beings. And so we any opportunity at this point. now sort of managing these things in a way ahead you jeopardize you know, the results and kind process stuff getting. And then take these sort and, and, you manage them in a way that we don't overburden and then can't do anything. Am at a in my life, Sam, where, I want do much for who've read books move this forward. So who 40 of of can do work. Man, we had an opportunity. We could have some really weird sign off. that we said that we do every single day that Victor would have to do. we didn't. Nobody, nobody thought about it.
Sam:He's on the mic now.
Victor:Go forth and be merry is one of the good ones
a.m.:it. That's a podcast. That's what we do
