Preparedness vs. Improvisation, Personal Reflections on Adaptability, Creating Inclusive Spaces with No Tech Bros.

 This episode examines the significance of balancing preparedness and improvisation in various aspects, contrasting traditional educational values with the necessity for innovative and student-centric approaches. It underscores the importance of risk-taking in education while cultivating inclusive and engaging learning environments. The discussion advocates for a shift towards valuing adaptability, creativity, and individual experiences in education to foster genuine engagement and personal growth.

You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.

You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.

Transcript

a.m.: 1:44

So I didn't send out a topic and so if you're up for it, I think that's the topic is being sort of being prepared versus, you know, it, it, it it's not a new thought for me, but, you know, like I, I am. So good In situations where i'm completely unprepared like just improvising just whatever it is like, you know, whether it's a like a public speaking event or in front of a classroom or Whatever like if there's a crisis it's part of what would build the career right? It's just there's a crisis going on cool Follow me, like it just, you know, kind of figuring it out in the, in the moment. Part of that is just, just, I'm sure, you know, adaptation survival skill from how I grew up, you know, just kind of getting thrown around a lot. And, and these kind of completely foreign situations where it's like you couldn't have planned for it if you wanted to, and you certainly didn't plan for it. Figure it out. You don't speak the language. You don't know anybody. Figure it out. So, you know, maybe it's adaptation skill. Maybe it's genetic. Whatever the thing is. And I think there are situations where preparation is really, you know, useful, if not critical, but certain types of preparation. And so that's the, maybe that's the topic, is kind of what's your relationship to preparation? Over preparation, under preparation, non preparation, and then, you know, maybe improvising and riffing as a side topic on that. He asks the question without preparing anybody.

Kyley: 3:03

I guess my own personal experience with it. Mm hmm. For me, it's from my, my, my base machinery around. I'm the only one I can rely on, so being prepared for myself is something that I tend to be good at. And when it includes social norms, I have a more significant difficulty. So like, if the building was on fire, I'd feel super comfortable. But if you put me in front of a board of people to ask me questions, and there's like some social norms I don't understand, and I didn't wear a tie and everybody else wore a tie, I'm gonna have a weird time. Like, like, there definitely, there are areas of preparation for me that are easier than others. And I wonder, and one thing for me is like it's similar on the outside piece, it's similar on the showing up on time for stuff, or like the showing of care, where like if you come to a thing and you aren't prepared to engage with that, like you are showing that you don't care about it, and that's not necessarily the true statement, but that's sometimes how I perceive it. If you can fake it, cool, if you can, can swing it and go for it, fine, but if, if you're, if you show up and you're not ready for the conversation. Or the experience or whatever it is. You need to go get water and find your tool belt and check your phone and whatever and I have to wait around for you. It's it's like the opposite. It causes harm to the moment for me. Yeah.

Sam: 4:19

You're talking to a chronically over prepared person I'm, pretty Kyley could speak to that if it's like I won't say anything unless i've like researched four different articles and books on it. I'm i'm I don't know how to live without being prepared I'm not prepared for this. a trap

a.m.: 4:34

Yeah.

Kyley: 4:35

That brings up an interesting question, though. Because, like You are the most prepared person to have a conversation about how you prepare because you're the one who experiences your own preparation. Like, you couldn't be more prepared for this in some capacity. There is an actual question for outside resources. It's hey Sam, what's preparedness for you? How does that, how do you, how do you show up in spaces?

Sam: 4:57

Yeah, I think it's just, it's, it's my researcher brain, like, it's not that I can't, like, if I'm put in front of a crowd, it's really funny. I'm the complete opposite. I, I don't really come prepared for things. I just kind of go off a vibe. So I'm really good. Like my, my team used to be like, we don't know what to talk about this. I was like, just tag me and I got you. I could do this like in my sleep. But I think one thing that I think I got out of researching was like, you can't really ever say anything without the proof. You don't really, you can't really talk about like your process or your data, how you got to somewhere without proof. And I think like part of me as a person realized, like I liked routine. I liked being able to speak to why I did something, how it worked for me, being able to show that it worked for me was really beneficial, but I think for me, the preparedness always kind of came from the need to validate myself to other people, not necessarily for myself. I'm a very disorganized person. The other day I was like, I rolled over and I was like, where did all these art supplies came from? Oh, yeah, I was doing art. I forgot I was doing that. And I was like now I gotta get this clean again Oh, no, cuz my partner's coming like I can't see this. So it's And I think it just also comes from leadership positions constantly having to prove like why you're choosing to make that choice and not another choice so I think like Being prepared kind of comes with that social norm thing for me, too. It's it's like How can I speak in a room full of people with ties if I don't have a tie, unless I have data that proves why I didn't have the tie, that way I can speak to that and prove my worth. Don't necessarily, you know, put you in a good place for being unprepared, but at the same time, you know, like you were saying, sometimes, you know, being a subject matter expert in something and then improvising on that can be a real, a real way to communicate something different than having, you know, here's your handouts and

Kyley: 6:43

I'm a bit, but even in how I hear that, like being a subject matter expert is inherently a kind of preparation, even though you're you're not coming. You're not, you're not a blank slate coming to this. You're coming with whatever, however many years of experience to a thing. And so in my, I guess my opinion, you are both prepared and prepared to the point where you can now make jazz. I guess it's, you know, you now know the scales, you have the base of the scales. You've done this for a while and now you are prepared enough to break from strict, rigid expectations.

a.m.: 7:15

The first blog I ever had back in the early days of, of blogging, you know, these thousands, it was called Prepare for Surprise. And that's a line from Carse. And the line is to be trained, is to be prepared against surprise, to be educated is to be prepared for surprise. And so not to say one is better than the other. And so to be trained is to be prepared against a surprise, meaning that, you know, all the scenarios so well that nothing can surprise you. And there are areas where being prepared against surprise is really, really useful from the mundane of, of, you know, the person who's making your coffee at the shop, there's nothing you can order that they don't know how to make. Unless you're just being weird for the sake of being, you know, just making something up like some nonsense to mess with them. I don't know. But point is like that. So that's a product of training, right? They're prepared against surprise. And there's lots of aspects more complex than that, but that's a simple, you know, example to get at where being prepared against surprise, being trained in that thing is really useful, beneficial, valuable, ethical, et cetera. Right. But to be educated is to be prepared for a surprise, meaning that, that your relationship with the thing, right, so jazz, your relationship with the thing is so deep that you're free of the constraints of knowing and what shows up, you can now deal with that thing as its own whole thing. And so, Sam, I'd say my experience of you, Even just indirectly hearing stories about Is that actually you you operate from that place with the students, right? So there's all this preparation you're bringing but that's not what's showing up It's dealing with the student in that, you know in that moment and making stuff up in that moment, right? But that's a different kind of preparation it includes the training preparation but You have to be involved You Like, I have to be there to make jazz, to educate the way we do. I have to be there to teach a class. I don't have to be there. My mind has to be there. And all the facts in it, and all the examples, and all of that has to be there. So I can get it all right for you. So you can get it right, and I can tell you you got it right. Right? And again, that's not dismissive. There are areas where that is critical. But to educate is a different kind of development and it requires you to be there. You should be at risk, engaged because you're, if you're going to play good jazz, you're going to make bad notes. And then you're going to figure out how that bad note gets transformed into part of the song.

Kyley: 9:36

Let me know if this takes off on a tangent. But it made me think of cooking. I say that because I am at no point formally trained to cook. My food is fine. There's some stuff I make that's good. There's some stuff I make bad, but my bar for what comes out of my food is truly like, will people generally eat this? And that wouldn't work if I was in a restaurant. Like if I was like, so there is a level of preparation to based on what your expected outcome is. We're like, I make food, I want it to kind of generally taste good and include mostly food. Like, those are the kind of like important boundary conditions that I have for when I cook stuff. And my preparation isn't, I go find a recipe, it's like, what do I have? I, this stuff kind of works, we now have food. I guess it has a different dimension because preparation for a thing is also based on what you expect the outcome to be.

a.m.: 10:26

Yeah, that, that, that, that threshold of, of, you know, surprise is, is lower,

Kyley: 10:30

Yeah,

a.m.: 10:31

It's just, it's just, it has to be edible,

Kyley: 10:33

Yeah, I want to be able to eat it and generally enjoy it. Yeah, fine.

a.m.: 10:37

There's a, sort of shadow side to that where people, you know nobody in our audience, you're all amazing but people hear, you know, versions of, and it's, a virus, you know, these last 15 years with social media, but people hear the other side of that, the prepared for surprise, the jazz that, you know, and it's licensed to, yeah, I'm just going to wing it,

Kyley: 10:54

yeah,

a.m.: 10:54

men and hype women where they got no relationship to the thing. And they're gonna come in and, and Oh yeah, let a And they've like, you know, jumped around to 40 different places in six years and they've never, you know and, and then it's like, I'm good at improv. yeah, Yeah, yeah, just tell me your problem. I'm, I'm good at, on the fly, making up, like that's, you know, that's not what we're pointing to,

Kyley: 11:12

Yeah.

a.m.: 11:13

Yeah.

Scott: 11:13

I kind of it takes me immediately to music. You know, I've been playing bands for years and a lot of what I end up doing becomes sort of like a muscle memory. Writing a part and then learning the part. Yeah. And then playing it, you know, on stage or in the studio or whatever. One little thing, kind of being not right, you know, either the sound is bad or you're tucked in a corner or there's loud people and, you know, can really screw up the whole thing that you rely on, what you're listening to. So there is that sense of like, all right, I'm going to wing it. But it is based on the work that has already been done and you kind of like modulate your volume or performance or whatever Sometimes I'll just stop and listen and then come right back in like the next time around So it's one of those things where sometimes you just got to like give yourself space to get the perspective you know if everybody has a tie on just Look at all their ties for a few minutes and then do your thing kind of you know the way it feels to me

a.m.: 12:08

I'm gonna play right now. And, and just parallel of, of of what you're saying. In, in, in theater stuff, right there, there are folks who will learn their lines and they'll learn the blocking, it's like. cool, I'm doing it. Kind of not. You know, you're doing a reading. And there it becomes tougher to improvise. And I don't know if that's the case in music, right? Where they're just locked into the script and not paying attention to the moment and what's happening. And so the thing is correct. All the words are said in the right order. They're standing in the right place, But there's nothing actually

Scott: 12:42

the feeling's not there?

a.m.: 12:44

There's nothing because there's no, They're in the They're not being, they're not being surprised. So this I wanted to get to where I'm right? Even in something like, like, like, like, stage work, where literally your every word is prescribed in advance, your every footstep is prescribed in advance for the most part, right? Unless something goes wrong. Even in that. When it goes really well, it's a surprise. It's like my own words are a surprise to me. Your words that I've heard 50 times in rehearsals are a surprise to me because we're in the moment of the thing. And then, you know, you can, you can improvise not changing any of the words, not changing any of the steps, but how you say them each night, how you interact each night. It's like a different show and that's fucking amazing. Right? And I'm imagining it's a similar thing in music. Yeah?

Scott: 13:27

Yeah, it's really, there's so many variables and it's one of those things where, you know, I get one bad cable and my setup can ruin the whole thing For me, I, you know, I have to either remove something or add something else to compensate for it. And it kind of shifts the whole like, wave thing. But then once the, once that's resolved, it's like relaxed into it again, can happen, but it has to be resolved, you know, at some point when it happens.

Kyley: 13:52

take this in a different direction because that's just the way my brain is working today. I'm thinking of our students, our high school students in particular. All of them are going off to college. or going off to something post high school or even building projects and stuff. And in a lot of those cases, it seems like preparedness is almost a blocker. Like I'm not ready. I don't have enough. My, my SAT grades aren't good enough. My, I don't have the ideas and fully formalized. And there is a timeline where a decision has to be made. And in some ways it seems as if the like preparation that they're doing It's almost in the way of their own success. And I wonder about that in some capacity when we're working with students. My video game's not ready. I can't show it to you. Well, and I don't, I'm not looking for a final video game. What do you got? I can't, I can't do this thing. I'm not ready. I don't know enough.

Sam: 14:43

don't think so.

Kyley: 14:45

No, I don't think so. You may have said it, but I couldn't give you a description for it.

Sam: 14:50

you a description for it. So, for example they gave a bunch of students, like, these candles and a rope, and they were like, alright, like, figure out this, like, problem. I forgot what it was, but they were like, figure out this problem. And the students only saw the candles, like, doing one thing, and only the rope doing, like, one thing, and they just couldn't figure it out. It was just, like, continually, over and over and over and over again, until they used it in an unconventional way, a way that isn't typically used, and a lot of people just got caught. And so for me, it's funny that you mention that, because I went to a high school that was like, it was an academic high school. We were prepared to go to college. That was their whole deal. Like, you had to take even a college course. And it was just horrible. Like, I was really bad at it. And then I get, like, so many people ask me, like, oh, how did you pick your school? Like, it seems like you were meant for the thing you do. Like, you seem to speak so, and I was like, Man, I want the honest truth. I only went to college cause there was some guy I was dating. I wanted to go to the same college as him. That was it. Like I didn't, I didn't really have a college in mind. Cause I was told the same thing. Like your GPA is not good enough. Your bottom rank of your class. Don't even try. You're not even worth going to college. So I was like, cool. I have no purpose. That's, that's fine. I'm not prepared not to go to college. I can't figure this out. I don't know how to take the proper notes. I'm bad at this. And we had this like peer success coach I was trying to teach us how to be like good college students and it just didn't really work for me Like it just nothing was taking I was like, yeah, this is just proof. I'm not meant for college and there was one professor who was just like And I forget this is like you could treat life like a hoop or a portal Like you could just jump through the thing over and over again and get the thing done kind of what tay i'm speaking about Just speaking the lines but not with feeling or you can treat things like a portal like yeah You may not like the thing but you'll know what you liked and what you didn't like what you learned from that And I decided to just take that and run with it. And so I just turned to the person next to like, Hey man, I don't know how to take notes. I thought I knew how to take notes. I don't know how to take notes. Can I look at your notes? And they explained to me their process and everything. I was like, wow, that's really cool. So I started running a blog on like, how to study. Like, what works for different people. I started mentoring other students on how to like, learn. And like, I think something for me that that kind of hammered this in is like, being prepared really is a blocker for school sometimes. We were in the psychology class. Psychology 101 class. And there was a bunch of us on the left side They kind of called us like the burnouts because they didn't think we were good, right? But when you really looked at us, it was a police officer, a full time mom Me and another student and this one girl would come up to us all the time. What did you get on your test? I got a hundred and one because I got the bonus point and we just sit there like, okay We had a little study group. We'd bring snacks We'd work every day and I'd sit there and we'd teach each other like I'd be in the room. We'd work on it I'll never forget that the day she came and she was sewing, she's like, Oh, I got an 80 on this test. Every single person I go, well, we got the 101 plus the bonus point and she just couldn't understand like why we were like getting so good and she wasn't doing great and we're like, cause you just flew into this. Like you think you know everything, but you're not listening to your peers. Your peers have things just from their own life experiences that they were bringing in. Like the mom was bringing in about how like psychology affected her as a mom and that was related to what we're talking about in that chapter. The police officer was talking about trauma and how we bring that in and like all of that helped us. Because we're connecting to these real scenarios and we're preparing together as a group And I agree with you like there's a blocker because I think the community tells you how to be prepared But I don't really tell you like At a lot of colleges, you're just winging it. You're not supposed to know what you gotta do. You're not supposed to know who you're supposed to be. You're, you're not this one set thing that's gonna be like a doctor by the end of this or a lawyer by the end of this. You're gonna change your major a couple times, maybe even five. That's what I did. And people are like, oh, you, this was your calling. I was like, no it wasn't. I had no idea what I was doing. I still don't know what I'm doing and I'll figure it out when I get there. It is what it is. So I, I think that's, I think that's what it is. That's, that is a blocker. I think being prepared is not what we think it is, and we should stop labeling it as like college is this big thing you've got to do, like, I'm not saying go there and go party and go have fun, you can absolutely go do that, but go there and explore who you want to be, even if your parents are like, you have to be this thing, you're not going to be happy if you do that.

a.m.: 18:50

We've had this conversation in different ways before in here, but it's, it's in part what I, what I hear in this is. this, this, this horrible thing we do in the society of, of collapsing psychology and ontology. And so what I think, what I do, what my skills are is one for one correlated with who I be. they're not, they're separate things. Yeah. I have a, I have a, you know I have a bad SAT score. I have a bad grade point average. I have, you know, whatever it is even the positive stuff. I have a high SAT score. But that's not who I am. Yeah. Those are totally different domains, but we collapsed them.

Kyley: 19:28

Yeah, what I hear in some of that too is like, you're in some ways potentially preparing the wrong way or a way that isn't useful to you long term because like, just because you can get a good SAT score doesn't mean you know how to study, understand information and think, which is what what what college really or make decisions or recourse correct, do any of those kinds of things that that truly is important when you get to doing stuff.

a.m.: 19:54

Well, so, so yes to all that, but, but even deeper, Kyley, none of those things matter relative to am I content? Do I feel safe? Do I belong? Do I love myself? All right, you can't plan for those things and there's no any scorecard you put to them immediately ensures an F There are aspects of life that as soon as you put a scorecard to you've already failed. You can't win

Sam: 20:18

Thank you for saying it because I, I'm at this point where like I am taking college courses. I got special acceptance against this capstone. And I literally have not done any schoolwork at all. I just want to drop out. I love all the stuff I'm learning, but it's not working and I was talking with someone about like I don't get it. Like, I love learning, I love researching, but I hate this, and they're like, you hate the grade, and I was like, that's the truth, like, I don't want to submit an essay so you can tell me all the things I did wrong, and then assign a grade point average to it, that makes me feel like garbage, especially if there's someone next to me who was like, yeah, I winged it, and got a hundred, I'm like, dude, this feels like garbage, like, maybe you came from a privileged family, I gave you tutoring, and you understand this concept better than I do, or maybe you have background experience in this, like, That frustrates me and i'm especially frustrated in this one capstone class I have because I have background in research like I already have a research project This is three years in the making and there was a student the other day He's like, I just don't know what i'm doing I don't feel like i'm good enough and I got so angry in the class. I cut the class off. I was like no No, you're good at this thing. Everyone gets stuck in that place We're all confused and frustrated and we're here to help you and if you can't lean on your community here We failed as a classroom this professor failed and even my professor she's worked with me She was like, yeah sam's right on this like You know, and I think that's, that's the problem with schooling is like, I'm so tired of these grades. I'm so tired of being assigned like this worth. Like I'll never forget. I got on this paper one time, a professor was just like, you're better than this. That was the feedback. You're better than this. And I got to see, I worked like three weeks on this paper and I, I'm not going to say I was the best writer, but like, God, I wanted to just cry. I felt like trash. And I was like, Oh man, I can't ever do this right. And then being a part of a classroom where I was like, yeah, like, I like how you did this part. Push yourself here. You can do this here. Like, step out of your comfort zone here. I learned a lot more. And I'm realizing like, school just really isn't for me. Not for the fact that I can't do school. I'm really good at learning. I'm really good at explaining. I'm really good at teaching. I just hate being told my grade point average like trying to go for a doctor is the most abusive thing ever because it's like All right If you don't get this great point average you go to a mid Doctor and a mid doctor is not where you want to be and like, you know Then you're not put first on the research. I'm like, what if I just like Wanted to read about it crazy thought what if I just want to work with people and talk about what they think about things crazy Thought oh, that's not a thing we do here. Great. Why am I here?

a.m.: 22:33

My 80s punk ass would respond to that professor, of, You're better than that comment to a student. You know? Like, it's just horrible, man. There's this thing that got launched, you know, year in October, the Dalio Foundation Commission Boston Consulting Group to do this research project. And they came up with this 119, 000 right, 119, 000 disengaged youth age 14 to 26 in Connecticut, just in Connecticut. Right. And so this past week there's a commission formed. It's a bunch of mayors from the other cities, all the cities in Connecticut, and then the head of the Dalio foundation. And they're, you know, they're launching his commission. And I submitted a video for the, you know, they're looking for perspectives on people who are working on this. Okay. And, and the message I sent them was, you know, engagement is not, how do we get these kids engaged in the exciting careers that are out there? Engagement is not, how do we get these kids to understand that they can make money? Engagement is not, how do we get these kids excited about college? Engagement is not anything external, right? If you only focus there, all you're ever going to get is compliance. People who will do the thing because the carrot is sweet enough. And then eventually they'll fall off. The only thing engagement ever is, is engagement with yourself. And the work with these 119, 000 kids is, can we help them get engaged with themselves? And then from there, they will take on whatever they're going to take on and actually be prepared to take advantage of all the things that are available to them. You know, and that comment from that professor is like, it's like such a invitation to disengage from yourself. Well, and, and we do do that in traditional schooling a lot. It's, it's, you know, put yourself aside. It's not about your sense of, of why you're here on the planet. It's about, this is the path to get to Z and these are the X, Y reasons why you should value Z. And let me help you convince, you know, help convince you of that.

Scott: 24:20

Brought back to me when we first started this podcast. 28 episodes ago or something there was a visit from field trip and teachers came in and I remember you talking about it like That that they were dehydrate the teachers themselves were so dehydrated From having to navigate within the system. They couldn't They couldn't give themselves enough empathy to show that for the kids as well That's kind of what it felt like and then we talked about it a little bit that way Do you feel like that? You You know, the way to engage youth within the systems that we have now is to sort of start ground up and sort of, you know, re, re educate the educators on some level and like, is there a middle ground? Is there external?

a.m.: 25:03

know how to disengage person engages. Yeah, I mean, it helps others get engaged. Like you look at, you know, again, the secret sauce for is and always has been in this place in previous places. It's the people. It's, you know, Sam and Kyley engage with the students day to day. Yeah. And we've had, you know, we've had misses, you know, not bad people, but folks who just weren't engaged at that level. They say, oh, I thought this was a job. No, it's not a job. There's a job, there's pay, there's all these things, but that's, you know. And, and, and so yeah, I think that's it. And I, I think it's easy to bash teachers and say they're not doing a good job. But exactly right. They're, they're, they themselves are dehydrated. Who's, who's helping them get engaged in that intrinsic way? You know the whole thing is turned into this bureaucratic machine that is all about the talent pipeline, you know, about how do we help you become a productive member of society? That's not new in the sense of it started, you know, five years ago, but it is new. In the sense that it started 50ish years ago, 70ish years ago, that's a, that's a, an atom of a, of a drop in the ocean of time that we've been on the planet and, and evolved as human beings. And disengagement at the workplace in schools and all around there's no mystery to it. Human beings aren't designed to, to, to attach to some extern you know, external set of tasks. To repeat them 50, 000 times and then die. And be happy in the process. That's not, that's not how we're built. It's how machines built and it's, it's, it's, it's what society actually wants. It's what, you know, without realizing it, you know, organizations and schools, can we all just be machines, please make it easier. And there's a group of really, really scary folks at the very high end of tech. We're going to introduce AI because we haven't done it in a while. Who are are, you know, semi vocal about Yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we need to move on to the next life form. You know which is a non biological life form. Because we're all just messy and, and emotional and illogical.

Sam: 27:01

I feel like no one goes into teaching or educating because they hate teaching. But I think the problem is that like Lesson plans and all of those things and curriculum is great It gives us like kind of like the scaffolding to start building things but we don't really let teachers do like the creative things that they're good at like There are teachers who would create really fun creative activities or just try something new And maybe it's a full flop. Like maybe they made an entire like Puppet show on how to explain history, but and it flopped, you know, but they're never given that chance But they're also not given the support either, you know You're alone in a classroom and maybe there's a student who needs extra support But you can't reach out and support that student or maybe you come from like a place where like the way these students the places These students are coming from is really rough and you also grew up rough But you can't express that because it's always this idea of like how a student comes in is either good or bad You're teachable or you're not Either you're prepared or you're not either life prepared you or didn't And I feel like there's a lot of teachers who are trying to combat that but they're not really given the space to explore That for themselves like they're not given professional development. They're not given time off to explore They're not given time to just change the way they teach subjects. It's it's very rigid and I think that's the problem is like I'll never forget the biggest history lesson. I ever got was this teacher. He loved history I think he got a phd in history and he came and they told him he wanted to be a professor like no go teach high school And he was teaching us about, I think it was like World War I or World War II. And he came, he would come in the military uniforms. He would come in the military uniforms, this man would jump on the tables and like, like yell about how, like, this whole thing was. And the biggest thing that hit me, and this changed my life, was he would, he was talking about like, like, like the human suffering that happened, right? When, like, the Nazis came, and, and he, he handed out these, like, these different wallets, and we were feeling them, right? And he's, like, talking to us about it, and he goes, you know, like, During the war, he's giving us the lecture on how we're all feeling this wallet, and he's just like, One of the scariest things that happened during this war was like, They killed people and made their skin into wallets. And what you're holding right now is that, And I don't know if it was real, I don't know if it wasn't, I could have been fully faking just a leather wallet, But that process really hit me that like, Like, that's real. It made that real. I wasn't just listening to a lecture and it made me kind of think about like, wow, I never want this to happen again. I should care more about history. Like this really mattered to me. And he did that with everything where it was like either we were talking about like wars, we were talking about policies, we were talking about how it affected people. And then the next semester he was like, all right, cool. We're going to learn about each other. So go out. Go experience something and teach about it. So me and my friend went to go see the Harlem Globetrotters and we came back and we taught about it. And then we all went to colleges and we talked about what it was like to go like see these colleges and why we picked them. And like I learned so much in this class, not only from like prehistory to modern history, but it meant a lot to me to learn that. And I think that's, that's something we're not talking about. I was like, there are these teachers who have amazing tactics of amazing things to bring, but we're not giving them the forum. So talk to other people who also care about these things. It's, it's, it's, it's a lot.

a.m.: 29:58

It's Sam, you're raising a, it's so easy to overlook when you get access to it. Like, like you're, you're, you're describing me in the grad school, like 20 years ago when I started teaching in, in, in the grad psych program. Like what I teach is so off the radar. Like it is so like inappropriate in the sense of this isn't what, you IO psych program. But I had the benefit of the woman who ran the program trusted me. Said, you know, I had known me and said, I get it. You're going to do weird stuff. Don't hurt the students, give them value, and then we'll reassess after a year, you know what I mean? And so that freedom to do weird stuff, right? And so, you know, 20 years ago, you get grad students in, in the org psych reading Carse, reading the Tao Te Ching as context for talking about organizational change and stuff that just, you know, just should not have been allowed, right? Doing linguistics theory and all this stuff and then over time it becomes oh, yeah enough, you know, evidence shows up Oh, this actually works like students are really excited about this and they're having applications, right? And then it gets institutionalized but but that risk for that administrator To tell that teacher, whether it's in high school or grad school or wherever, you know, the risk of that director telling that manager in the department yeah, feel free to throw away the playbook. Just make sure you don't hurt the employees or the business and make sure you generate value. A big risk for that person to take. And Tara, Tara LaRue, shout out to Dr. Tara LaRue, one of my favorite humans on the planet. The risk that Tara took and just saying, yeah, just do what you want. We're going to, we're just going to, you know, let you kind of put you in a box is massive because there's no incentive where no one's going to pat her on the back. You know, it's all downside and it has to proceed from, she has to be engaged. She has to care more about the students than the system. And obviously have trust in me and vet all that Right. The systems are designed to, and again, for all the talk about innovation and all this. Our systems are designed to punish innovation to make it far too risky to do.

Kyley: 31:51

This conversation has gotten very timely for me, because I'm trying to figure that out as a director who's trying to make sure that the space is fluid for people to try their stuff and do their things, but also, no one's going to get hurt. And it is one of the biggest challenges I've experienced here before.

a.m.: 32:08

be prepared for it.

Kyley: 32:09

Yeah, well, yeah, and I think for me, is like, Getting to that point of trusting that you understand what, how, do you know now how, how not to let students get hurt? Like, can I leave you in a room and you're going to make sure everybody gets out safely? Like, I don't know. That's, that's, that's what I'm working on right now is how do we, how do we figure that out as an organization? So I can be like, okay, cool. All the number looks good. Go for it. Do whatever it is you got to do. And then stuck on it right now.

a.m.: 32:40

I was having lunch yesterday with Shelly, the head of the International Festival of Arts and Ideas, about, you know, maybe some collaborating on things. And you know, we're talking about just, just running a non profit and, you know. And I said, you know, I try to design things I can walk away from but that will sustain, right? And she said yeah, that's tricky. How the hell do you do that? Like, when do you know when to pull back? I said, I don't know. But what you do is, and now we're in a meta conversation. Kyley has actually experienced the other side of this. You know, I'll share what I'm doing and I'll just keep doing it. It is, you find things that are out of the group's depth, but that aren't going to blow up the business. And then you become unavailable when they need to get done have to and they have to figure it out.

Kyley: 33:21

Yeah.

a.m.: 33:21

Right? And you you

Kyley: 33:25

Yep.

a.m.: 33:25

and they figure it out. And if it goes wrong, it's not going to blow up the business. All right. But the fifth ring on that, if you'd done on the first string, it would have blown up the business. And so you just keep like not being available for more and more critical things. And, and assuming you've done the pre work of having people who are actually engaged and committed, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's the jazz of the thing, I think, of, of, of, you know, managing this way or leading this way, at least that's one way of it. But again, it's delicate. There's no guarantees. There's all risk, you know? And so discerning like, is this person actually engaged? Is this team actually engaged? They're going to, you know, actually care about the business, the company, the students first and foremost you know, the mission, you know and I don't mean in a negative way, like, like they're not, like they don't care, but like there's a depth, there's a, there's an ownership level engagement and then there's a execution level engage, right? And so I was like, is there an ownership level engagement? And then, okay, cool. How do I let, it go? How do I become unavailable? And they got to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyley: 34:24

I was on to you. I've been on to you for like a year and a half now. Yeah. The the like, yes, 48 hours after a critical question has been asked, it's like, yep, I, I, I see a pattern here. Yeah. No, it, it's, though stressful, it's working. And I've learned a lot.

a.m.: 34:39

Well, and don't you do this with students though, right? Because you say, I learned a lot. You learn so much more in those situations than if you got the answers and internalize the answer. Because now, that prescribed answer is my crutch. At the end of this kind of experience, I am the crutch. Right? I know I can rely on myself and the people around me for this.

Kyley: 34:59

That's one of the things that I see this year that is challenging for me is I don't see as much of that in students. I don't know where it is yet, where the key thing, I think part of it is having, having that circle be significantly smaller with, with new staff who've come in and don't, don't totally get what's going on about it. They're basically getting caught up as the students get caught up. And so But like with our, our second year students. Yeah. Like the product development team. Yeah. They barely talk to me.,and I'm like, this is wild. We check in every couple weeks and they're like, this is what I'm doing. I'm like, okay. That's great.

a.m.: 35:35

Sort of education as incubator. Yeah. Right. like they're just incubating their own learning and, and a valuable product that they're gonna launch at the end of it.

Kyley: 35:41

Yeah.

Scott: 35:42

One thing I've seen as an observer is students presenting at the end of every semester or sometimes more frequently, They Not prepared. You know, I have no preparation. No idea. Like, Oh, today's that present? And they do their presentation. They might have a few hiccups. Maybe they're You know, they're not projecting or they're not enunciating, but all the rest of the students Or modeling what the instructors are doing, what the educators are doing and supporting them And saying, Oh, you're building this here. This is how I did it on mine afterwards and getting them to the next step because they're, you know They haven't talked to them during program, but They see their presentation and like, I've already done that. Let me show you how I did it. And that was just like, Oh, they're totally modeling what you folks do you know, with them when they're trying to find something that works for them. I wish there was a way I could collapse that into something that's, you know, beginning, middle and end easily. But it's pretty interesting to see.

Sam: 36:35

like, you're speaking to something that I've been thinking about for a while, which is like, just this like idea of like scaffolding, which is like, just like building situations where that can happen, but like slowly over time. And like, I've had like a couple educators come up to me and be like, why are the students just like, they just don't like, they don't seem to like want to work on their own. They always ask her questions. Like, Well, if you sit someone down after coming from school where you're told what to do every five minutes, like you have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom, then you're told you transfer to a space where it's like, figure it out. Do you really think that's going to work in retrospect? Probably not. But if you scaffold it in such a way, it's like, right. Maybe they watch the videos, you sit there and help them. Then the next time you like step back a little more and you step back a little more until at some point they're able to do it on their own. Yeah. That's scaffolding. Like you're building that into the process. Like if you build that into your process, it would absolutely work, but you can't expect them to just get it right away. Like you've been in this for a while. Like you have no idea what it's like to not know coding. You have no idea what it's not like like what it's like to have a second language and try to figure this out at the Same time like a lot of these students Like i'll be talking about college like that's a thing. I'm like, yeah, it's absolutely a thing if you want some help email me, let's figure that out, you know, but a lot of our educators come from a tech background not an education background and scaffolding is not something that's Easily understood not even at the college level and I think one of the difficulties you're running into is like how do you build that in such a way where it doesn't You Burn somebody, including the educated themselves. And then kind of what to am was speaking about and, and Scott was speaking about you know, how do build that like excitement and ambition for someone who might be burnt out or may not like, you know, if you come from, like, I build my own apps all the time. So now I got to teach them and make an app. I'm teaching the same thing every time. You know, how do you build that ambition? And I think that's what we're trying to figure out right now.

Kyley: 38:17

100 percent agree. Yeah, and I appreciate your and Kay's approach in this most recent thing because it seems like some more of that scaffolding has been happening. It seems successful for the students who are in that program right now. I have this silly idea or ambition is to take the whole education team out of the woods and make them build stuff with sticks and rocks, just like fully outside the tech space, like, what's, what do you care about? Here's sticks and rocks. Make something just to give like the context of going into a whole new, like, vehicle for creation. And then how do you, because like, that's what these students, some of these students are doing, like, computer science sounds cool. I don't know anything about it. I don't know the last time Kay and Mo has been, like, actually confused by a technical project. Like, they, they do it. They know how to do it. They, they got the process down. How do you step out of that and be like, this is what the experience is like. A whole new medium. Probably not sticks and rocks, but something like that. Something, something outside there.

a.m.: 39:06

it's a an analog analog of digital

Kyley: 39:09

yeah, yeah. yeah. yeah.

Scott: 39:10

I think the carving, you know, bowls and spoons might be a good idea. Sure,

a.m.: 39:14

I would love to have the, bandwidth capacity. And again, as we mature with funders and they get more and more, you know trust in the kind of results we're generating. I would love to have like, like our summers, for example you know, you're starting the program in September, but actually you're going to start in August and the month of August is not here. It's, it's, it's at a camp in essence. And we're working on all of the. Human development, foundational stuff, the community stuff, the interpersonal stuff, the, all of that, like that, that sure, because that's our grounding now. We just have to do it in bits and pieces. But if we can have even a two week retreat, the summer camp that starts it off. And then September you come in and start working on the thing. It'd be amazing.

Sam: 39:55

When I was president of this club, something like, I ran into that same issue where a lot of my executives were like, they were just always at odds. Like they just would be like, why can't you get this budget done? The treasurer would be like, you don't understand what I'm going through. Meanwhile me who's helping all of them, it's like they're both right and they're both wrong. So something that I did is to kind of alleviate it was I was like, all right, now you all are gonna be in each other's shoes. And this is going to be a willing choice. So what we did was we started off small, which was like, it was this thing called writing the meeting notes. We would have to write, someone would always have to write the meeting notes. And so each team member and their chief of staff, where they were training, we'd put them on the board and we'd spin it, including me. So like, even me who would have the most work, I could spin it and end up on the board. Right. And something I found interesting is there would be a, and the more work you did or the less work you did, your, your slice would get bigger or smaller. So you could see how everyone was doing work. Right. And there would be, there was one time where our treasury team got it three times in a row. Had the most work, got it three times in a row. We could not figure out what was going on. And it was really interesting to see because of this process we were doing. Other teams were like, no, I'll help you. Oh, no. No, I'll got it. Like the I wouldn't even say anything Might you have stuff say I'll have it. I was like, did you just volunteer our team? What? Oh, okay Like and it was really interesting to see that this is like something they enjoyed like they enjoyed coming to meetings And then I would also pull back like, okay, I'm not gonna run the meeting this time like today I'm gonna hand it over to the vice president team We're gonna hand it to a treasury team or you're each gonna get your sections You're in charge of these pieces of yourself. Like they're just small. I'm aware of it. Each thing is I know what each thing does You but I want to give you ownership of that and just seeing them get excited about it, seeing them get up and present these things. And then even in like our, our work, like the way we got some of these executives was, I mean, this thing was like a term Tuesday. We would just teach about a term. No, it's called T Tuesday. It's LGBT. That's what we called it. LGBT. We just spill the tea about stuff. And we would get two new members and we just, I would tell them like, here's the slideshow. It's already done. Everything's in there. Present it. I don't care how you do it. And at the end, we'll talk about it. And I remember the way that our entire executive team started from that one moment, because two of them did it. They were super nervous. They were just like going crazy. Just talking, talking, talking, talking. That was horrible. And then our treasurer showed up the next day. We didn't know he was our treasurer yet. And he was like, y'all just seemed cool. Became our treasurer after that ended up speaking at during graduation. And it was literally because these two people, I was just like, figure it out. Good luck. You have everything you need. There's no messing up. You can't mess up. Of course you can, I just didn't tell them that. But I think that's like something that Like this organization is is figuring out is maybe we don't need to go in the woods and build stakes because i'm not gonna do and build stakes because I'm not gonna do Because no

Kyley: 42:23

not building sticks, we're building with sticks. Sam,

a.m.: 42:26

love the clarity and

Sam: 42:28

Listen, I just, I, I am for not doing Jenga in the woods

a.m.: 42:33

I, I was imagining more like a retreat, like a

Kyley: 42:36

Nah, we're all building our own shelters outta sticks and leaves. What

Sam: 42:39

what I don't trust is Kyley not to be, to be like, oh, we're going a resort. And then he pulls out a bunch of tents.

a.m.: 42:44

no, we're not we're not putting

Sam: 42:45

Yeah. My

a.m.: 42:46

the

Kyley: 42:46

carry a

Sam: 42:48

big boots like, oh yeah, this is not made for

a.m.: 42:52

no, no no good. I, Can you imagine the story you just told can you imagine a a corporate DEI officer? Trying to do this With the kind of nonsense constraints and the risk aversion and the, all the things they have to get right and all the things they can't get wrong at just, and then again, we want, it's like innovation, like diversity is like innovation. Like we, they talk about it, I think they're sincere and they're blind to the fact that the entire design of the system, the hyper preparation against risk blocks anything real like this from actually happening.

Sam: 43:26

I I, think that's just'cause they don't ask the right questions. Like it's always like, ideas come from the top and not the inside. Mm-Hmm. Like, it's always this whole thing of like, how do we stop gun violence? And it's like, all of these policy educators are like, how do we stop gun violence? I was like, I don't know, go into the school and don't go to the kid and be like, How do we stop gun violence? That kid's gonna look at you like, what do you mean? I don't know, that's your job. If you just go like, what would you do to make this place safer? What steps do you think someone could take tomorrow? What steps do you think someone could take in the next month? I promise you that kid would be like, Oh, that's easy. Do this and this and this and this and this. There's so many of our students that come in here like, the educators did this, this would get fixed. And it's not big wants. It's not big needs. Sometimes it's just like, just provide lunch

Kyley: 44:04

We love to have nice bathrooms.

Sam: 44:06

Yeah, it's like, it's stuff like that, but like, where do you create the forums or the space for that to happen? And this is, somebody brought this up to me recently about my college. It was like, what is it like to be an LGBT student? I was like, listen, I love, I love administrators, I DEI people, but I love when you come in, you're like, here's my role, here's what I do, here's how I can help you, what can I do to fix it? And these students are looking at you like you have five heads, cause they've never been in this space before. You didn't train them to be here, you didn't train them to be able to ask those questions. Maybe some of them do, but not all of them. So like, what experience are they getting out of this other than making you look good? And that's my problem. And I think that we're not really making space for like, Not necessarily just our educators, but educators in general and students to be able to speak to this stuff where it's like, here's what I need, here's what I want, here's what I see wrong. I'm not expecting this all to get fixed, but if you want my perspective on it, here's my perspective. Like, that's it.

a.m.: 44:56

It's such a hassle though, man. It's like a lot to manage. Do we have to.

Sam: 45:00

Yes! Yes, you have to! If you care about the thing, yes!

a.m.: 45:04

sitting here in the seat it it's like, you know, I got to deal with that complexity and I hear you with that. That's the stuff we got to do. And even for us, I think we're decent at it. And I have no doubt we can get 10 times better.

Kyley: 45:15

A hundred percent. Well, yeah, and that's, and that's, that's what I'm actively, consistently thinking about, is like, how do you have enough structure that things are safe? But, The ability to actually move at the speed of student. Because if you're like, Hey, I want chicken nuggets and we're like, we'll roll out chicken nuggets in May. Why am I requesting anything? You know, like the ability to not be able to make change meaningfully happen. makes those conversations a moot point, like you're just screaming into a void.

Sam: 45:40

I don't think it does. I disagree respectfully as a person who's been in that position. If you walked me through what you are doing to get me to there, and why it's coming in May, I'm not gonna be mad. If you tell me, I hear you. The process that happens next is we're going to do this and this and you keep me informed on how that's happening. I am not going to be mad at that because I am aware that you're making the change. You're showing me that process actively and you're making me a part of that process. I think that's fair and I think that's what we need.

a.m.: 46:06

also want to offer a disclaimer to the listeners that the chicken nuggets were provided the very following week.

Kyley: 46:11

I now, I now have a juice proposal on my desk.

a.m.: 46:13

Well, listen. And, and, and I, and I said to that young man, because he, he caught me as I was living one day. He said, can we, can we get juice? I was like, you can have like 50 flavors of juice. Here's the design problem that you have to work on. Yeah. Said we have lots of soft seating here because we wanna give you all lots of options for how to sit. when we first started, we had juice and, and, and, you know, lemonade and things like that. And all these couches got really sticky and they're really impossible to clean. So, work, work with your colleagues, work with your fellow students, figure out how do we have sticky sugary stuff in here that doesn't destroy computers? Because water and computers, we can fix juice and computers. We can't and, and you know, the, the thing, so this is your space, you know, they, they know, right. So design around that issue and you can have any beverage you want, non alcoholic, obviously. Non caffeinated, too. Marginally caffeinated. I don't want to send them home at

Kyley: 47:03

I fully serve them caffeinated tea sometimes. With I was like, disclaimer.

a.m.: 47:07

Well, but that's a marginal amount of you know, They're not gonna drink a gallon of green tea, you

Kyley: 47:11

Mountain Dew.

a.m.: 47:12

Yeah, Mountain Dew is a

Scott: 47:13

different

a.m.: 47:13

you know, issue, right? Yeah, I don't want to send them home at seven o'clock at night, you know.

Sam: 47:18

yeah. Building the tech bros early.

a.m.: 47:20

God help us. Yeah, let's, let's, let's end on Tech pros and, and, and and a, a collective prayer that we never hatch any of them.

Kyley: 47:26

Mm hmm.

Sam: 47:27

looking right at K,

a.m.: 47:28

Yeah. Right. I don't think TK is

Kyley: 47:30

Kay.

Sam: 47:30

he's living off of ice, tea and Dreams. Dreams

a.m.: 47:33

Yeah. yeah,

Kyley: 47:34

So Kay. He acts like a tech pro, but Kay also has a deep seated humanistic mission to what he works on.

a.m.: 47:41

This it K Kay's not a tech bro to me, like what I consider a tech bro, right? Like Kay is a, a deep. I don't know. How would I say it? You know, he's a tech

Kyley: 47:49

Sure. Like he Yeah.

Scott: 47:50

wants to understand. He leads with altruism. He

a.m.: 47:54

help. Yeah. How it

Scott: 47:55

I can

a.m.: 47:56

The the tech bros are you know, like like all the other flavors of bros are all about, you know, kind of conquest and progress

Scott: 48:03

for progress

a.m.: 48:04

and killing it and and and hustling and Like just no humanity to it at all. Just just it's all just some version of a sport How do we move ten yards further, bro? And then slam something And high five

Kyley: 48:20

to take it back three steps, I appreciate your perspective, Sam. And I think that actually clears up a lot of stuff for me on a way to approach it. So I wanted to call that out. The One concern is that we have to be accountable quickly for students and the idea that we could, I do want to include them in the process, but it's just such a messy thing sometimes, but making an easy, simple way to kind of work through that could be really helpful.

Sam: 48:41

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize is like because like I'll be honest like I was a person who requested something like That I I argue for an LGBT center. It took me Four years to get that. I was never mad about it because I was included in the process I was there when they were hiring and they were like, yeah, it might be around here We haven't hit there yet, but just letting you know or hey, just as a reminder We're still working on it and it's been messy. You know, there's a lot of politics stuff that goes on It's it's really difficult But like I could see the honest humanistic perspective that they cared about me And that's what mattered to me more than anything. And I think a lot of people don't realize is like when people ask for change, I don't think they're expecting it tomorrow. They just want to know that you care and you're working with them to get there.

a.m.: 49:23

What you just said there and acknowledging the contribution Sam made to to you know Some stuff you're thinking about there. I'll share with you last night. Driving, back late. I hopped onto clubhouse and you know a couple of friends that were on and so just you know a little social kind of room and one of them said oh I've been meaning to tell you I've been listening to your podcast and and I think it's just so amazing that that you do your like like staff meetings You Like, publicly like, that. like, holy shit, that is Like, we're, we're, we're, we're, I mean, obviously these aren't the only, you know, conversations we have. But, but so much of this, we just kind of like, just, like what you just did, like, it's just a very practical, this is how we engage, and it never occurred to me that showing up to people potentially as, you're listening in on a staff meeting,

Scott: 50:05

which in part you are.

a.m.: 50:07

Like, this This is our more conceptual, one of our more conceptual kind of spaces for conversation to keep the thing alive and moving and growing and evolving.

Kyley: 50:14

One thing I also, also show is just a, how like deep level of commitment in our lives where like, no matter where we

Scott: 50:21

start,

Kyley: 50:23

where we end up. Well, how how does it it work for the kids? Yeah. How does it work for us stuff?

Sam: 50:28

I had it over when one of my former co workers was like, Hey, I was listening to that podcast you talked about our prior workplace. Have them sign me on. I was like, I would never do that. I don't trust to do it within an inch of my life. And he's like, you're doing great. I was like, stay out of it.

Scott: 50:43

Oh, we got on the phone right now.

a.m.: 50:45

that's fine. Oh, I'm on, I'm

Sam: 50:47

If all I heard was, Carlos is here, I'd be like, run. Just, no.

a.m.: 50:51

I've been toying with I I, we, I haven't looked at the metrics. We haven't talked about the metrics in a while. But, but, but I, I feel like there's enough regular folks at this point. I, I was toying with the idea at some point when we have the bandwidth for maybe like early part of summer or something, that we try one of these live actually. there are some folks who are regulars who I, I think would, if the timing were right, would definitely kind of jump in.

Kyley: 51:11

Do you want to start with questions? We'll start with written questions that we can filter before we go into full on, just say whatever you want on air? yeah, that's exactly

Sam: 51:19

exactly right. I can only imagine Kay. I am so glad you asked about crypto

Kyley: 51:24

Yeah. Then they get to see our, our beautiful space and all the, all the all the comfort that we have on here.

Sam: 51:30

Yeah. Yeah. we're one place, It's like closer to becoming gaming bros. Woo.

a.m.: 51:35

All you out there, we don't mean to offend you. You are welcome to come in and have some tea. If you're willing to kind of, you know, hang and explore a different perspective.

Scott: 51:47

No, no chicken nuggets for the tech bros though.

Kyley: 51:49

Mean, let's say write a proposal.

Sam: 51:50

Mountain Dews must be left at the door. I will be taking them. Thank you.