absurd wisdom
What lies beyond understanding? Beyond certainty? Listen in to conversations between a.m. bhatt and colleagues, confidants, and important thinkers as they tackle questions both timely and timeless, and chat about maintaining your humanity in an ever-evolving world.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and Substack at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
absurd wisdom
Plastic in Plastic, The Ethical Implications of Everyday Actions, and Contractual and Covenental
This episode of the podcast revolves around a deep and nuanced conversation among the speakers about the environmental, social, and ethical implications of everyday actions, particularly focusing on the theme of "plastic on plastic" as a metaphor for broader issues of waste and consumption. The dialogue opens reflecting on the absurdity of excessive plastic use, which segues into a broader discussion on the impact of choices and the way society navigates the balance between convenience and sustainability.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
just had a moment of thinking around this idea that you have and it probably doesn't align because I didn't watch the movie. I wasn't in the mood. Don't have the mindset to watch the movie yet. But this idea that you just broke out a plastic container with snacks, each individually wrapped in plastic, and everyone is excited, and I don't know how often we actually, like, think about that. And it used to drive me insane as a 20 year old being like, how do you all live like this? And I've just had to kind of like, suffocate that part of myself so I can exist inside of the society of not living in the woods. And. Hunting your own squirrels and making your own loincloths out of squirrel parts.
A.M.:Yeah. So this, this is exactly where my head went in watching that film. I mean, that's not where my head went in watching the film. When watching the film, my head went to the film because it's, it's, it's an immersive experience. And we're, we're talking about folks. Hey, welcome folks. That's
Kay Pinky:an intro.
A.M.:for this week. For the crew was I, I finally got around to watching Zone of Interest, which I would very much recommend and recommend you watch it when you have several hours free afterwards to kind of sit and, and, and ponder how you make decisions and, and what the legacy of those decisions will be and, and how output and efficiency may not be the best metric. And, and so as I was kind of saying, I literally, like, you know, I watch a lot of films. I love cinema. It's a real, like I finished this thing and I thought, it's like, okay, this is one of the 10, like best films I've ever seen, I think. Okay. But I got to process it best in the sense of not good or it's good, but in terms of just, like for me, art, whether it's a theater or dance or piece of music, It succeeds when it leaves me with fundamentally new and high propagation inquiries. Yeah, right. Like it leaves me like I'm entertained. Cool. I'm appreciate the technical aspects. Cool. But ultimately what it invites me to do is to instantly forget it and take the questions from it or the inquiry from it or the awareness from it and begin to look around. Right. And, and so this, this, what you just said about, about these, you know, I brought in some, some Korean sweet rice cakes for the crew cause I was picking up Kimbap for, for our students for today. We have a presentation day. And, and so this, this is the context. I see you saying, you look at these things, it's plastic wrapped in plastic, wrapped in plastic. I'm sitting here drinking coffee from a paper cup with a plastic lid. That's got a paper sleeve on it that has all of, you know, 15 minutes of use and then gone
Kyley:into a trash can where it doesn't actually get reused. Just go into a big old dump of stuff. Yeah.
A.M.:Yeah. And, and, and so this issue of sort of, you know how do you not get burdened by just every second freaking out about the plastic on plastic version of, of how we live in our lives. But pay attention and really make decisions not on what's like, really cool and really efficient and really like amazing outcomes. The genius of this film is just, just how sort of just banal and, logical and good management discipline that the dude running Auschwitz is bringing to his job. No, you know, ill intent, no, I mean, obviously you'll, it'll massively impact. But the focus is on the efficiency, and the productivity, and the excitement, and the, and the, and the, my name is gonna be on, you know, in essence, there's a point there where it's like, you achieved 300 percent productivity increase, and we're gonna name the thing after you. And he's proud. But not in a sort of like, it's not proud in the sense of I watched the film, so let me get back to it, and so, like, we're developing tech folks who are building shit, That has all kinds of potential impacts. And, you know, since day one, since day zero, we've had the conversation of, you know, humane technologists, technologists who are kind of aware of what they're doing. And And that, that damn thing just had me question, like, are we doing, you know, 1 percent of what we could be doing in terms of really raising awareness without wagging fingers and inviting kids to freak out.
Scott:Well, in the sense of the film, I did watch it in preparation for this and
A.M.:don't give away spoilers.
Scott:No, just a few, few observations I was telling Kyley earlier. Like the sound design is amazing and horrific.
A.M.:Yep.
Scott:And to the point where it started, it was very kind of, you know, lush atmosphere. Atmospheric sound design before it got. heavier and darker. I thought to myself, Oh, I'm going to put my AirPods on and listen to this and spatial. And then I decided against it. And then luckily I didn't, cause I probably wouldn't have slept since then. If that was the case because of the incidental noises and sounds and stuff. So it was a very, very, very hard to sit with. And I think I, you know, I also mentioned I don't remember ever being, engaged in a film like that where I couldn't wait for it to end. I was like, how long is this? I kept checking like how much left, you know, but I wanted to watch the whole thing to be ready for this. And, you know, and also see what the hype was about you know, awards and stuff. And it was like, and then I went to sleep and I was like, kind of just laying there and like, you know, staring, staring at a, you know, little light in the corner just kind of like, Oh man, Imagine if that was like outside my window, like how can I be one of those people that turns it off?
A.M.:Not to, diminish the unimaginable magnitude of what that particular thing is, but qualitatively, Scott, it is, it is, you know, you walk down chapel street and you see the outsourced impact of our amazing economic efficiency.
Scott:Another thing that brought up was in a recent episode with Ben Heller visiting, you talked about something you observed on the street and then, you know, everybody being in a whiteout. And there's one point in the film where it just goes to white. It was that same kind of thing. But the sound continued and you're just like white screen. And it immediately made me think of that conversation that you had, like, You know how the human brain is capable of just shutting down when there's too much input, too much sensory input and, you know, almost as if it's non important detail as opposed to the most, you know, excruciating image that you can think of.
A.M.:There's a lighter. Much lighter version of, of the general, I mean it's not about Auschwitz, it's not about, you know, the bridge on the River Kwai, have you ever seen that? Alec Guinness, he's a British soldier prisoner of war. And they're building this bridge, and they're, because they're, they're just now, in essence, you know, slave labor, they're prisoners of war. And forced to build this bridge. And Al Guinness is the, is the commander on the, on the British side of, you know, of the prisoners. And he, like, gets more and more enthusiastic about doing the thing right and gets into, like, a fish. And he's, at the end, he's proud of the bridge, like, look at what we did. And he has this moment of realization, like, oh, wait a minute. What did I just enable? Right?
Kay Pinky:Now I wish I watched the movie.
Kyley:I don't know if I want you to watch the movie, Kay.
A.M.:It's not, I mean cinematically, it's, it's not, it's not heavy in the, in the way you'd expect, right? A film about Auschwitz It's not heavy. You don't, there's no violence. There's no, see nothing of the camp.
Scott:A lot of nature and tranquility.
A.M.:A lot of nature. It's, this is the impact of it. The horror of it is, you know, life in suburbia. Mm hmm. As things are happening. So you don't need to see the film, Kay, you just gotta pay attention to society. So, again, I want to get, to try to get out of the film and just, just, Like, we all, you know, to some degree or another, thread this needle, right? Of, of the nature of folks who work here, who are part of our community, have an awareness of impact. Adverse impact and, and But I'm still sitting with, you know, with the kids, how do we not burden them with yet another heavy thing? not Germany, Auschwitz, etc. Not another heavy thing in terms of accountability for your efficiency accountability for the you know thing, you know down the downstream impact. What are you actually serving again? We have that conversation with them. We work with them. But but I'm genuinely sitting with for next year How do we radically particularly those who are the kind of bleeding edge of, of, you know, I won't name names on that podcast, but you know the kind of kids I'm talking about who are, who are actually going to build things that are the next day, humans, the next day, humans, exactly. Like they're going to build like stuff not in 10 years, but in 10 months that, that potentially have commercial liability, et cetera. And how do we not impose on them awareness of these kind of So it's a difficult time and I think we all face this as adults and there's a lot of issues of what are we serving? But continuing to invite that in them and have them have a place to take deeper and deeper accountability for it. Because they're wired that way. I think about the next day kids, at least, you know, two of them I'm fairly certain have a clarity of But that clarity only extends as far as they're able to ask questions. Right. And how do we help them ask bigger and bigger questions.
Scott:It's difficult with kids because they're I think it's important to note that a lot of the historical, Context that they get from older adults, especially you know, family, educators, other people in their circle. They have no concept of time because it's, you know, before their lifetime and a large chunk of their lifetime. Ago if it was something more recent. So the, you know. Does it make more sense to point to cause and effect of things that are happening as they become young adults and what are those examples Is it too much to add to their plate, Already dealing with enough, you know stress and anxiety and other societal pressures as they figure out what they want to be, or how they want to approach the world?
Sam:taking all of that in, and kind of thinking about everything and what this really brings to mind is, I wouldn't argue that it's, you know, like, the most current historical things that, you know, these kids are only focused on, I think it's that, it's a lot It's hard to care about multiple things and so many things, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't or that we can't. I think there's kind of been thinking about this ever since Kyley brought up about the plastic thing. And I talk about this a lot as like this concept of slow violence. Which was coined by Rob Nixon, which was mostly built in relation to environmentalism. So, slow violence is this gradual sort of violence that's delayed. And the destruction is dispersed across time and space. And it's not typically viewed as violence at all. You know, oftentimes when people think of violence, they think of just like physically hurting someone, like an action you can see, but they don't think of, you know, climate change, they don't think of gun policies, they don't think of those things, but we're not seeing, for example, like how this affects different genders, different people, for example because of pollution, we had a lot of birth defects for individuals that like basically harmed their lives, and that was violent, it hurt them, it was over time. And so this concept kind of understands we use this tool called Ecomaps, a lot of the work that I do. And a lot of Ecomaps can understand, like, where individuals end up in life because of the different things around them. So sometimes it's the more recent things, some things that they can see. Sometimes it's the macro things, the people in their life, the people they interact with, the places that they go, the places they have access to. But there are things that we look at that are more than that. So we look at exosystems, mesosystems, we look at things, for example, policies that happened 20 years ago, and how that could affect, for example, immigration, how that affected your parents coming here, and how that could affect you to today, and looking at how those things affect you as people, and could basically put people in situations where they are now victims of slow violence and the problem with slow violence is there's no one person you can ever point to and say like you're the cause of this because it's so gradually dispersed. It's so silent that we don't see it coming And I think one of the things that a lot of people don't realize is kind of what you're speaking to Scott Is there's this you know, like it's not gonna affect me This is going to affect someone else or maybe a little bit. So I don't really have a hand on this. So this thing I'm making It's just a test or it's just you know, it will just see where it goes But we don't really think of like the gradual thing over time that can affect people And when you take that step back and you look at yourself like as an individual that's affected by the people around you the things you've done the policies the wars all of those things that make you who you are without you even realizing is this historical trauma that your body is keeping count of A lot changes for how you view the world And I think it's really complex to bring that to a high school mindset because there is just so much going on. They are victims of the slow violence that's now compounding from these teacher shortages and all of these things that are happening. And I think this all comes from this metric of like, we need to have more money, we need to, you know, we're a capitalist society, and we're not really realizing that, like, we need to give the freedom for these individuals to explore these concepts of who they are. And I think it's funny. I actually brought this up to Kay earlier that I had said something to him and I was like, Oh, you know, I'm like, it's a joke and I'm sorry. And Kay was like, no, no, it's fine. And I was like, I recognize that. But something that I realize is really important is like, regardless of our intention, we can hurt others. Right. So we can honor our intention, but it's more important that we recognize our impact. And I don't think a lot of people sit with that because even the smallest things can have a very large impact on people.
A.M.:So just as you, when you were speaking, Sam, you reminded me of another aspect of the film. It becomes obvious at one point, it's, it's sort of said in passing in dialogue a couple of times, but it's made very clear that, that these people come from quote unquote nothing, economic nothing, right? The, the core family here that, that's now, you know, the husband's running Auschwitz And they're like, like, my God, we made it. Like they got, you know, a nice house and a garden adjacent to Auschwitz, right? And there's a palpable sense of, oh my God. At one point the wife's mother comes to visit and she's like, Oh my God, look at this. Amazing. Who would have thought you would have gotten here? I think I've talked about my past, you know, in like, you know, extreme poverty and coming out of it in India. And I've always been like really uncomfortable being able to buy shit. Laughter. Like I, I, I always intentionally live really, really, really below my means, not out of any sense of nobility, not out of any sense of, but literally I am just uncomfortable. It just feels like, like weird, you know. the normalization is, And so for our kids, they think about like, of course they want to make it, right? I mean, you know, so they're victims of slow violence, they're victims of economic deprivation, they're, you know, these things. And of course the narrative is you got to make it. And we want them to make it in the sense of, you know, having a comfortable life and being able to take care of themselves and, and people they love. And in the context of that, again, I go, I don't have an answer. I just keep asking the question, mainly of myself, right? In the context of that, like, how do you, you know, how do you encourage? Yeah, make it. But, but, but I don't want, here's the thing that's kept me up since I watched this. Well, that kept me up, but it kind of kept me up, preoccupied me. Like, I, you know, there's a large tech firm that I worked with early on, right? And I'm like, some of the folks I work with, you know, say like, you know, massive contribution. We wouldn't have gotten some, but, but I'm, I'm, I have no delusion. Like I'm a footnote of a footnote of a footnote of a footnote of a footnote on the impact I had and what that company became. And even that microscopic impact I to this day have like such weight around because I got paid well for those years. I was with them as an advisor. I got paid really well and I thought we were doing good work and it was cool and it was exciting. And I look back now and I'm like, What, what, you know, again, one, one millionth of 1 percent contribution to that thing is still a contribution to that thing. And, and so I don't want to look, so that's not what, what, what preoccupies me. I don't want to look back in 20 years and say, here's a DAE kid and like high fives all around. This thing's been around 25 years now, and we're really successful in 15, 000 kids went through. And I don't want to look back. And the next Elon came out of DAE. Or the next, you know, fill in the blank. And, and, and to a certain extent, that's unavoidable. It's, you know, we're not accountable for people's, right? But, but, but the question is, I know we're not doing enough. What is there more to do to invite awareness, not impose it, not burden it, but invite more and more and more awareness as we get to the next phase of this thing? We have some baby Elon's. That come through here. And, and how do we help them be, kind of, settled in themselves more and more and more so that as they become, you know, hot shit they move with a different awareness.
Sam:You have to take your product out into the world for the people you serve. I often say this as like a person who became an LGBT advocate is, I'm not an LGBT advocate, I'm an ally, and I constantly earn that terminology. If the community I'm looking to serve doesn't see me as an ally, I'm not doing my job right. Even if I identify within that community, even if I think I know everything, I don't. Because every community is different. And I think that's an important aspect of building anything is, is understanding like, okay, cool. You built this project. You think it's going to work? You think you understand it, take it on the community, have a genuine conversation, have them try it out. Even if it's just the people around you, talk to your classmates about it, talk to your parents about it, talk to people that you're not even sure would even use this thing and see how accessible it is. Like, see, see what thoughts come up and genuinely listen to those thoughts and concerns, because oftentimes I feel like that's what leads to successes where oftentimes. And I always talk about this as moving into this ivory tower, where once you think you know everything, you kind of get blinded by this idea of your own knowledge. You think that you are the expert in this thing, and you quite probably are, but you are not the expert on every community, and communities are dynamic. People are dynamic. People are fluid and ever changing, and the things we develop need to, like, they need to be holistic. But they also need to reflect that dynamic change that we as individuals have, and that is a constant challenge that you can always build into tech. And I think that's very probable, but I think it's, tech doesn't move at the same like pace that people do. And so it can be very difficult to match that energy.
A.M.:mean, Expertise is actually in the way of understanding those communities, right? Because the more you know and the more certain you are in your knowledge the less listening you have. I was teaching a class last night, and we're focused on on sort of early stages of design thinking and spent the entire three hours really, you know Focusing in on kind of empathy and subjectivity versus objectivity and expertise And and the challenge for a practitioner to actually, you know be subjective but rigorous to be empathetic but rigorous It's easy to be I mean, it's a lot of work, but it's easy to be objective and rigorous Because you don't have to get involved and you don't have to pay attention to yourself to a certain degree, right? And so one of the things in which you're saying, Sam, like, you know, as a tactic, like, we, we sort of blow by empathy mapping. Like, we give it space, but we blow by it in the sense of, right, and, and, and as a, just a, to go from 100, 000 feet down to 5 feet, you know, a tactical thing to consider is how does that become more of a living process? How can we get our students into communities? How can we get community into here? More because, you know, the orientation, the people who fund us and they're all great. It's not, nobody's doing anything wrong, but the orientation is, If we said to them, you know, we want to bring, you know users of this kid's works in, they'd be like, cool, which corporations would you like us to introduce you to? And that's obviously not what we're talking about. We want them to go and influence the corporations in positive ways. So, so maybe somewhere in that early part of their experience here, we do need to find ways to get them more directly in touch with their own community, but from the perspective of a designer of a builder of a coder.
Sam:I think that just involves a reflexive process. Understanding their positionality and things. I mean, I'm doing research currently. Okay, I taught you these terms, so I know you know what I'm talking about. But positionality is kind of, when you're looking at research, it's understanding where you come from. Why you're studying the things you're studying. And reflexivity is an ongoing process of doing that. And I think, Even in my work, right, I'm not sitting and working with my community every single day because I don't have access to it. But the other day, literally yesterday, I did an ethnographic observation. So I just sat in the DAE community and I tried to understand what this space is. And it was so funny because I immediately went to Kay and I was like, I want to make my entire case about you, just specifically you, because I have never taken in all of the nuances that you have as an educator that you do to make people warm. Like Kay made so much eye contact And I was like, I am supposed to be just an observer, but he still tried to bring me into the space without verbally doing so. And I just, I noticed everything that he was doing was this active engagement process. And that taught me a lot about the space and what we do as educators by just sitting and observing and writing with all of my senses, being in the space, like taking it all in. And I had never just slowed down here to realize like, wow, I feel okay. This feels okay, and I never, like, realized that, like, Kay does so much to, like, when you come in, you feel warm, and safe, and willing to try new things without ever saying a word to you. And I think that's beneficial for students. Maybe they don't have to sit with, like, big corporations, but maybe they can just sit for a moment in a park in their school with their friends. See, smell, hear, look. Observe, read, write, paint, all of those things and really take in all of those senses and realize like, what does this mean for what I'm making, what does this tell me, and how am I making this safe for others?
A.M.:So Sam, this is so, you're connecting a dot for me that somehow I did just let, let, just kind of slide, right? When the state people were in this past week for their, for their annual audit and in the kind of final debrief, one of the things I was, you know, if you were going to send to them is like, you know, We don't approach students psychologically and sociologically. We're not starting with an assessment, a diagnostic. We're in essence starting with an ethnography of that individual student. And, and just hearing what you're saying, like that, that may be a, a, you know, certainly a tactical thing to do, but a more, you know, philosophical thing is, is. Can we get more rigorous in the, you know, sort of an ethnographic approach to each student, but then in that process, invite them and give them tools and give them some, some outputs to, to work towards. That is, you know, okay, take, take an ethnographic approach to the world you're living in and have that, you know, that, that felt lived experience inform your initial sets of project designs. That just, you know, In my body feels like a good direction to start moving in more formally. I know we do it informally, but I think, I think that would feel really good to me. Because the body doesn't lie. Like I talk about this a lot in the grad school, you know, the body listens in a way that, that the mind, you know and it shows up in the film. Like near the end, I don't want to give this away, right? But if you listen this way, you know There are things that will short circuit your kind of rational linear efficiency mind and, and open up perspectives.
Kyley:I'm going to ask a question that came to my mind and it's getting a little Atlas Shrugged for me. So I want to be careful and recognize this isn't necessarily what I believed, but it's a genuine question that I have. And I guess from personal experience, right? Growing up with the family that I grew up with, I had a bunch of wild ideas, and if I use them as a sounding board or as the community that I was like, like, like watching, being aware of perceiving and went down the path that they thought was beneficial, I would probably be causing harm for folk, right? How, like, How do you get macro beyond that and supporting something larger than this one individualized community? One individualized perspective? And the way you're approaching solutions.
Sam:Look at your privilege. Like look at what you have as opposed to what others have engaged with other communities, be willing to step into those spaces and kind of take a reflective look at yourself. Ethnographic observations are also about self reflection. So I would say probably reflect on yourself and engage with others that are radically outside of your view. And kind of do a comparative analysis and see how that makes you feel and why that makes you feel that way like what brings that up for you like where does that come from and Taking a step back and Sitting with that and then moving towards a direction that maybe you can't get rid of all the plastic on plastic, but what maybe what you can do to start bringing more environmentally friendly spaces here, like looking at how we recycle, talking about those conversations, just bringing that knowledge is more important than like, it's better that you said something for us to at least have that in the space. And I've never said it at all.
Kyley:Yeah. I don't know if I can frame this the way that it comes into my brain, but even like that, like, if I start talking about recycling, in a lot of places recycling doesn't work. And so, like, I'm not actually, like, I don't know how you have enough information in some capacity to be able to make, like, you can make the choices in the moment based on what you have, and you keep getting more information based on what you have. But I guess it's the awareness piece. I guess I'm processing my own, like, internal dialogue right now with how I approach life, but it's just a continual question, like, I don't, and it's my own, like, I don't know how to continue to exacerbate things, because that's, even when I solve stuff, it goes into exacerbation, and so it's more of a process of solving, and I wonder how,
Sam:I would say that's your problem. You're trying to solve things rather than question things. Like, you're looking, you're, you're never going to be able to solve anything because if, a real practitioner would never ever try to solve anything because that's a band aid for a larger thing. If you think your product is going to solve everything, You're dead wrong. I hate to say it, but you're wrong. What you need to be is a person that questions everything and engages with the communities because communities know what they need. So if you're looking to develop something, maybe recycling doesn't work in that community, but maybe there's something akin to it that's environmentally friendly that does. And having conversations with the community is like, instead of like, Hey, fix this thing with a straightforward answer. Like, this is what we're thinking. Just like, how do you think this thing started? Why do you think this thing is happening? What are the blockers for you?
Kyley:Yeah, that question is like, does the community know what they need?
Sam:Yes.
Kyley:Okay.
Sam:I would say they do.
A.M.:Collectively. Yeah. No one individual may know, but in the interaction of the community. Yeah.
Sam:And that's where, like, ethnographic interviews come to play, where you start building, kind of like you have these large open ended questions, and then as you have a conversation, you start to identify converging themes. And identify what those themes are and create like identify markers that built or something,
A.M.:you know, much more about natural ecosystems than I do. But I think this is how it occurs in natural ecosystems where over long time horizons, the ecosystem conspires in a certain way to make room for a certain kind of fungus because we need more nitrogen or what? Yeah, again, I don't know this way out of my, you know but that collectively, you know, no, no, no tree or blade of grass made the decision. But collectively, there's an intelligence that This is what's needed to balance the system.
Kyley:But the difference between that and what we're speaking to is like nature doesn't ask.
A.M.:Right.
Kyley:And we're asking and interpreting and doing whatever nature is. Yeah. And then that's, that's where I get kind of caught up.
A.M.:I would gently push back on nature doesn't ask. Okay. Cause there's a constant conversation going on. it's had in chemicals and minerals and proteins and enzymes. And so your body asks for oxygen. Your liver asks for oxygen in a certain way, right? Through sending certain, like if you're under threat or if you're running, the adrenaline and these things are released in response to a request from the system because it needs more oxygen. It needs oxygen processed more quickly.
Kyley:And
A.M.:so these things are being released as a response to a kind of request, which is a system trying to seek balance, and the balance it's trying to seek is proper oxygenation of all the, you know, organs of the body.
Sam:I feel like communication happens in more ways than just like verbal or written, and I feel like nature, it may not ask, but it does communicate.
Kyley:Oh, for sure, it definitely communicates. I'm just like,
Sam:And that's what you look out for.
Kyley:Even scalerly, right? An overpopulated deer population doesn't necessarily, Hey, please murder a few of us so that there's less of us so that we don't overeat all the things. Like, deer just die. Right? Like, it's a different kind of conversation.
A.M.:Yeah, so, okay, so let me get what I think you're pointing to, but a different way, and the way that I've and I don't know if this is right, but what I've always been working on Is not like, I don't know how to get to all the solutions or all the right. I don't know. And so what I've worked out over the years is a handful of precursors to humans that aren't going to fuck shit up. And maybe they'll actually do something productive, but I mean, right. And here are the handful of precursors. And so the design of this place, they feel like they belong. Humans who don't feel like they belong are reliable for creating bad stuff. Humans who understand enough. Humans who fundamentally understand what enough is for them. Humans who are comfortable in their own skin. Who have a sense of, I'm okay. Not I'm perfect, not I'm smart, but I'm okay as I am, right? There's a few others, but there's a handful of precursors that like, you can help a human being find these places for themselves. I belong. I'm okay. I'm okay. I understand what my threshold of enough is, et cetera. Nature, the tree doesn't need to be taught those things.
Kyley:Mm-Hmm.
A.M.:the tree understands enough. It's never gonna hoard more water than you know, or more of a certain type of mineral. It under quote unquote understands it belongs in the ecosystem of things it, right. And so, yeah, there isn't the kind of asking that, that, that humans do. But I think we, you know, a lot of. I'm spec again. I'm not a researcher and I don't know, but anecdotal evidence over 30 years that human beings that can be, you know, can be helped to level set around some of these foundational things. These come from internally are much more reliable for not, reaching for the 2nd and 3rd and 4th house.
Kyley:Yeah,
A.M.:much more responsible for at least having an awareness of yeah. the outsourced economic impact of their ambition, et cetera, et cetera. Because they're not trying to fill all these things to me are ways to fill foundational things in dysfunctional ways. The second, third, fourth house is in some way trying to fill. I don't have a relationship with enough or I don't have a relationship with belonging or I don't have a relationship with I'm okay. If I'm okay, and I'm enough, and I have a place where I belong, where I feel genuine I belong, I don't need these things. I may very well enjoy these things, absolutely. lions don't kill zebras. In fact, we'll lay right next to them when they're full. They don't just consume the next zebra because it's there. And after they're full. Because they, they, you know, understand enough, not understand like, you know, intellectually the way we do.
Scott:You mentioned awareness. I think that's the, that's the key. Cultivating that awareness and maintaining it and realizing it when it goes away. Like, oh, I was unaware of this aspect of the group or the situation. So talking about when you were talking about Kay, that's what I see, like when you're talking with the students, you know, if you're talking to students and there's like a third that's not engaged right there, you're like, Hey, what about you? Like, and get them into the conversation that sort of creates that awareness for them. Like, Oh, I'm part of this. I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm not external. And I wondered yesterday what you were doing, like off in the corner, like taking notes and stuff. But now I get it. Cause I see like. You just watching the organism kind of work as a whole unit and you know, I do that using, you know, video and audio to try to do, try to capture some of that stuff to you know, throughout the semesters.
A.M.:And back to, you know, very first episode of this thing, we're born into an economy and not a culture, you know, cultures provide these things. Like if you're born into an intact culture. Longstanding culture. There are, you know, mythologies and stories and ways of being that are tied to enough, that are very much tied to belonging. They're very much tied to your place in the scheme of things. And, and you can't, and I have, you know, I have my friends, you know, well intentioned, well meaning, genuinely, you know, long term acquaintances but who are like, Oh yeah, I belong. Absolutely. We need that in the world. I'm working on a, on a six month workshop on belonging. No, you don't. Oh, being comfortable in your own skin. I'm working on a, on a, no, it's the environment that you're in. It's a way to design the space. But as soon as you abstract it and make it into a thing to do, you've already lost it. It's in the space. And so you could build a bakery that reinforces belonging. You can have a school that reinforces I'm okay. You can have a, you know, a car dealership that invites a relationship to enough based on the design of it. It is not, as soon as you abstract it, you've lost
Kay Pinky:it. question that was ringing in my head for the past five minutes or so, which is, Exactly what you said. Can you teach, can you teach such a thing or it's as a result of an environment? Like, I talk about Jacque Fresco all the time, where it's like, it's almost impossible to live outside of your environment. And maybe it's something you could draw people's attention to, but the environment always like sucks you back in. I guess the question is how do you kind of bring more awareness or how do you, not, not teach, but how do you just bring, bring more people? To the idea of you're okay. Like those spaces you create.
A.M.:I think we do a decent job of it and a much better job than the norm. And I think it's what Sam just said about you, like around you. Like, it's just it's how you show up and how you engage is what has the impact. And, you know, as used to happen previous communities, now we have, what do you have coming back? Right? We have, we have, we have an alumni event. We've got, you know Krish, who's doing a video for us, this week, right? The, the, the, these are our elders. These, this is the emerging group of village elders that are coming back in now. And, you know, over time, more and more and more are taking accountability for this thing around showing up in the space that invites, you know. I'm very clear that it's not efficient, that it's not mappable, but I don't, I've never found anything more reliable than just have people in the environment who show up this way. And over time that environment gets built and people come in, then. We'll engage this way. I'm looking for, how do we, how do we ramp it up? I'm feeling an urgency to, you know, without getting artificial, but right, without creating a program, you know, here's a module on belonging. We want you to know you belong. Here's a module on like, but how do, how do we up the stakes?
Kay Pinky:It's definitely possible. Cause like for me, coming from Ghana, there are certain, certain mindsets that I have. Yeah. That like that I'm so aware of, even in the midst of the opposite of like that mindset that I, that I just, that I just know I can, I can realize the difference and and stick to it and stick to one mindset, you know? So I think it's possible. I don't know how it all happened. I, I don't know how it all happened, but but I think there's a level of understanding from the human, from the person, you know? Yeah. This level of understanding of like, why? Why am I enough? Why is it enough? That needs to be present for that to happen. Because it's not something you tell someone to go through. The person needs to kind of live it and understand it. And be it.
A.M.:And Kay take accountability for it. I won't say a name, but, but those who know us and certainly people in this room will know who I'm talking about. But I had a conversation yesterday with somebody in here, a young man who's been with us for quite some time. And, and he just sent yet another message to me on a topic where I was just like blown away at the level of, of just grace and maturity in somebody in the state. And I had the conversation with him, I called him and I said, listen, I know I blew smoke your way. And it's, it's out of balance for, you know, your employer to have, you know, but, but I just keep feeling me to have these conversations like, A, I want you to be aware of just like how unique you are in terms of your level of, you know, impact and authenticity. And, and, but B, and this is a boundary violation, but I'm going to say it. I need you to like, take accountability for it. Whether you like it or not, you're going to be a leader. Whether you want it or not, people are going to look to you as a reference point and you likely dismiss it because it's just natural expression for you. Right? Like, no, this is just how you act. This message that he sent was like so leaderful, but, but for him, it's just, no, this is just what you do. Right. And so you overlook it. And so I think another thing there, Kay is, is, is taking accountability for it. Not like, Hey, I'm good at this. Right. but taking accountability. How do I deepen my expression of it? How do I become more reliable for it? How do I et cetera, et cetera. You know I think that's another part of it.
Kay Pinky:Yeah. It's interesting. Like, you know, that, that stuff that's taken for granted, people are, people are willing to pay money for, you know, to, to be taught that. So yeah, it's, it's, so it's not like, yeah. Take accountability in the sense of, like, go brag that you know how to do this thing, but, like just being aware of it, you could be a lot of, you could be a lot of help to a lot of people. You could lead by example and shape a whole community for good.
Sam:Yeah. It's really funny, because I actually did teach a lot of Lessons on belonging and like how to create senses of belonging as a queer person. So it's really funny So I was like I used to I did a lot of research on it Yeah, and a lot of it related to retention like has so a lot of my research is actually on belonging My entire thing is about identity retention on belonging And so something I found really interesting is kind of similar to what y'all speaking about is there was research done on it And there's four primary characteristics of belonging in places Where do people look like me? Where am I valued and cared for? Where is my racial identity and culture recognized and valued? And where do I share the interests and values with others? So, through the lens of belonging, the idea of micro settings, basically that face to face immediate interaction, is where a person exists. So where you exist in your identity matters a lot, and yet very little because it's just an assertion that you exist. It's just a little flavorful addition for yourself. So a lot of the times when we talked about belonging, it was kind of like, okay, you're oftentimes just looking at this one lens of yourself and belonging isn't necessarily something you can learn and you do it every time. And so something that we talked about, especially when it came to leadership, is understanding there's this zone of interest or zone of intrigue for individuals where, If you make a certain level of belonging for each individual, because they all exist on a spectrum, that's when they'll be most engaged and most wanting to learn and contribute back to your community. So the more you make a place feel like it belongs to a person, the more they want to help the community, the more that helps someone else belong. And so by simply engaging with one or two individuals, trying to make them feel like, I matter here, I'm valued, I can share my culture and values here, even if we may not align, is an important aspect of belonging. But it's also important that you continuously do this process. And so when we taught that, it was like, this is not going to be your end all be all, but this was oftentimes people who never even understood this. They came from places of administration where it was like all about numbers and data and while that was important, a lot of your data would have improved had you just taken a step back into the communities and sat with them. So it's really funny that you'll both say that is. I think that it is taught, but it's not taught in the kind of traditional way where it's like it's a one, two, three step. It's, it's, it never will be, but it's important that you ask the questions of what does belonging mean for this community? How do they define it? And how do I engage with it in such a way that I'm not the person creating the belonging. I'm simply a person engaged in the space, helping that community build and get the tools they need to build their sense of belonging for themselves.
A.M.:Yep. Yep. Let's just see if this fits for you, Sam. In the in the Masters in Leadership program, one of the things Mel and I would kind of, you know, one of the, whatever, two dozen kind of anchor principles we never kept a list but, but, but really kind of a clarity for us was that leadership fundamentally cannot be taught, but it can be learned, right? And so it's about creating a space within which individuals can learn their expression of leadership, but I can't teach it to you as a thing, right? Does that fit for you around belonging?
Sam:Yeah, I definitely think that there's different forms of leaders. There's servant leadership, civil leadership, servitude. There's the typical ideal leadership and there is bad leadership. That's the thing too. But it's also to understand, like I did a lot of courses on, on student leadership. It's one of my favorite things that I liked researching. And we would read all of these methods, all of these things, like why it didn't understand. And one of the things I really liked is we created this Covenant of Accountability. We all came up, a professor had us all write it in, what we agreed to, and at the end we all signed it. We all agreed to this thing. And so when something was happening that we didn't feel like we were supported, we could come back to it, reassess, and we could just create it as a living document and re understand it. And that was something for me that really mattered as a leader because I was student council president, I was president of my club, and I was always stressed that I wasn't enough, that I was, you know, you're this, you're the representation of queer and you speak for all these people and yet you do not ever want to say the wrong things. So I was very transparent in everything I did. I said, Hey, we're going to speak to administration. Here's what I propose moving forward. What are your thoughts on it? When we chose the logo, when we chose the name, I proposed everything forward. I was like, I am open to everything you'll have to say within these boundaries, but this is what I was open to. And A lot of it, I think, made me a better leader because at the time I really, I don't think I was very good. I was very much like, productivity based, where it's like, Okay, I asked you to get this thing, why didn't you get it done? And I'll never forget, I remember the moment it changed for me was, I was sitting at the table one day, all my executives came in and I was like, Nothing got done that day, and I was like, so what happened? And they all looked with fear, and I was like, I'm asking you, what happened? And like, they were sitting there nervous, and I'm like, With you as people. Are you stressed? Did something happen? Do we need to go on a break? What are we feeling? Have the honest conversation with me. I'm not angry. I'm concerned because you all look distressed. You all look frustrated. I hear that. I see that. And I want to hear that in this way so I can make the proper judgment. So that entire thing, that entire meeting was just them venting about what was going on, what was happening. I listened to everything. I said, all right, proposing moving forward. How about we just take the break? Take a whole week off. You all do what you need to do. They all agreed to it. And I went to my club and I said, I know this event is important to you, but I'm canceling it for the health of my executives. This is a conversation and this is a decision I'm making and I'm more than willing to take accountability for that thing. And that was something that really mattered to them. And a lot of these executives went on to be executives for other clubs, you know, speak at graduations, and I realized, like, those moments where I realized I didn't know everything. To me, not having an event was a panic time for me. But I realized, like, my needs were not important. What mattered to me was to make sure that these people wanted to come back and work with me and felt like their voices mattered and what they were doing mattered and their ideas mattered. Like, I never moved forward without them proposing ideas and without students submitting ideas or having the capacity to do so, even if it was just like, no one ever submitted ideas, because no one ever did. Or if they did bring it up to me and said, okay, I'm gonna look at it. Realistically, I'll see what I can do and get back and be as transparent as possible with you. This is my ideas or i'm willing to take you into a space and have a conversation with me. The problem with that is you get burnout. Unless you're getting the support from everyone around you unless you have multiple practitioners of leadership There's burnout and I agree with what you're saying. Like you can't teach leadership and You definitely can help bring people into the space of the type of leadership that's good for them But if you're surrounded by a lot of toxic leadership, it's just You It really changes who you are as a person, and I'm really grateful I was surrounded by individuals who are willing to be my challenge network.
A.M.:Yeah, I use leadership in a very specific way, and so the, the things you're pointing to, I think with toxic leadership, we'd have a different word for it, but in principle, we're together. When you first started talking, though, I just, Smiling because I, I thought, my God, you would have loved the MAOL. But really the thought is the MAOL really would have loved you. Mel would have loved you, Sam. The covenantial was another sort of distinction for us, a contractual and covenantial that with human relationships, there are contractual elements like you all here, DAE, there, there are contractual elements. There's like a a set of contract elements you have in the context of your job. That you owe me certain things, outputs and hours and etc. And then I, we owe you a certain number of dollars and a certain number of days off, right? So there are contractual elements. But where the juice is, where the thing lives is the covenantal relationship we have. Which is all the kind of things we talk about here where there is no getting it right or wrong. There is a agreement to move towards a certain horizon that we can never get to, but we keep moving further and further towards it. And we drift, we correct each other, help each other to move, you know. And, and that's missing from school, that's missing from workplace, that's missing from society, is all contractual elements. Again, back to zone of interest, right? It is all, it is a, it is a burying of the covenantal relationships that we as human beings have with each other. And it's focusing solely on the contractual elements. Here's what I'm getting done. I'm getting it done well. I'm getting it done efficiently, and I get these rewards for it. Right? And there is no covenant there. There is no human relationship. And nature, I think, is all covenantial, and there's no contractual. Human beings need a certain amount of contractual to live in a society. But it's all covenant. It's all a certain horizon we're moving towards together. That isn't about getting anywhere, but it's about moving. That's another one that, you know, I belong, I'm okay, et cetera. Another, possibly the biggest one in this society is helping people let go of the notion that things can be done, that the things that matter to them can be done, that they can be done. That's the most important one, that there is a doneness, that I can get somewhere that has to be, I'm done now. I'm finished. I made it. Whether that's affirmation, or money, or safety, or there's no done. That's another one if you can help people loosen their grip on there's a very kind of Western notion. I find, you know, loosens things up.
Sam:You know what, this really reminds me of Kay, you remember when we did the design with our six week students? And one of the activities we did was like a two truths and a wish. And so we had the students share two truths and something that they wished for their future. And we talked about how you can identify that by just listening, watching the body, how they communicate. And these students were able to identify wishes, but we also learned about each other in this process. And so as we were building out this design process, we asked them, you know, like, you know, Interview each other, you know, what are the conversations you're having? What is the wish that you have for each other? What are the things you like or dislike? What are the things you would change? And it was really interesting to kind of have this like talk back of like, what do you think? What are your thoughts? And for them to be like, oh, I like this thing and it matters because of this or oh I didn't understand this because of this but now this makes me want to do this right now I'm interested in exploring this because of this and just the energy and the joy that was brought forward from just Creating the sense of, like, what you do matters, and you belong here, and what you're doing, the work you do, and who you are. That your core work is, belongs here, and it really brings me back to this idea of, I learned in research, because I never saw myself as a researcher. Well, research is me search. You are inherently a part of the thing you choose to study or do. And I definitely feel like that's something I see a lot with the six week students, which is why, like, every time I see them, I get this, like, Pure joy, because I know what they're doing is so deeply ingrained in who they are and what they're designing for. Maybe something that started as a self made project, but it's expanding to include so many more communities that are involved and they're re engaging with like, the high school students in the year long. And it's just, it's just really great to see them just like, even if it's online, they're like, Hey Sam, you're here. Like every student, whenever I'm online grabbing the computer to say hello or tell me about their day is like those beautiful things that I just, I love about. This community and how it makes people belong
A.M.:The last sentence feels like a like a like a like a good cap it really does like that sentiment, If you all are good with it we're going to treat that as as the cap Yeah, but but but I have some some some administrative business for for the for the dozens of listeners so we've been playing with this close to a year now, and I wanted to sort of play with it for a while to sort of understand, you know, what, what makes sense. There's two things I'm, I'm interested in feedback. I mean, in general, if you get feedback, you know, a couple of you informally have provided it, but I'm, I'm actively more looking for feedback. But two things specific, I'm thinking of of a live, episode to allow folks to sort of engage, and, and would you be up for that? And the second is now that we more than have our legs under us, I want to start bringing in other people. There are people, you know, nationally that I know that really are cool and interesting and are part of our conversation without being part of our, you know we have a covenantal relationship with, let me say that there are people with whom I have covenantal relationships in, in, in the sorts of inquiries that we do here. There I want to start bringing in, but, but I would love feedback on, on either topics or areas or, or, or types of folks. So that's it. So I'm looking for feedback, am at absurd wisdom. com. You can, you can ping me directly. I'm looking for feedback on as we close out sort of season one here soon. Where would you like to see this thing go? Because it is going to go. For a while at least. That's as committed as I get. For a while at least.
Scott:Moving towards the horizon.
A.M.:Yeah, that's it. Well, this is it. I don't, you know, there's nowhere we're trying to get to. There's certainly nowhere I'm trying to get to. So, that's it. That's the request. Thank you all for listening. And go see Zone of Interest. Go see it when you have, like I said, some time afterwards to process it.
Kay Pinky:I'm going to watch it.
A.M.:Okay.
Kyley:I'm, I'm really intrigued by your response.
Kay Pinky:I'm gonna watch it. Like I, Scott, Scott sold it for me. I'm gonna watch it. I did, yeah. How did he sell it? I don't know. I was just interested. I just really want to find out these things y'all talking about for myself.
Sam:Okay.
Kay Pinky:Not, yeah, I just really want to find it. I find out This is good. It was a good listen for me.
Sam:Well, it's also based off a book, I think, the movie, too.
Kay Pinky:Yeah, Luce he took a lot of
A.M.:liberties with it, but yeah.
