absurd wisdom
What lies beyond understanding? Beyond certainty? Listen in to conversations between a.m. bhatt and colleagues, confidants, and important thinkers as they tackle questions both timely and timeless, and chat about maintaining your humanity in an ever-evolving world.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and Substack at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
absurd wisdom
Sit on the Couch and Stare, Sisyphus & Omelas, and "As I Ebb’d with the Ocean of Life"
As I Ebb’d with the Ocean of Life
BY WALT WHITMAN
4
Ebb, ocean of life, (the flow will return,)
Cease not your moaning you fierce old mother,
Endlessly cry for your castaways, but fear not, deny not me,
Rustle not up so hoarse and angry against my feet as I touch you or gather from you.
I mean tenderly by you and all,
I gather for myself and for this phantom looking down where we lead, and following me and mine.
Me and mine, loose windrows, little corpses,
Froth, snowy white, and bubbles,
(See, from my dead lips the ooze exuding at last,
See, the prismatic colors glistening and rolling,)
Tufts of straw, sands, fragments,
Buoy’d hither from many moods, one contradicting another,
From the storm, the long calm, the darkness, the swell,
Musing, pondering, a breath, a briny tear, a dab of liquid or soil,
Up just as much out of fathomless workings fermented and thrown,
A limp blossom or two, torn, just as much over waves floating, drifted at random,
Just as much for us that sobbing dirge of Nature,
Just as much whence we come that blare of the cloud-trumpets,
We, capricious, brought hither we know not whence, spread out before you,
You up there walking or sitting,
Whoever you are, we too lie in drifts at your feet.
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This episode navigates through themes of questioning certainty, embracing simplicity, activism, suffering, privilege, and societal dynamics in a digital age. They discuss the importance of internal validation, mindfulness, deep listening, and balancing engagement with solitude. The group explores the paradoxes within societal structures and individual impact in fostering innovation and maintaining humanity amidst digital distractions and societal pressures.
You can find a.m. on Instagram and TikTok at @absurdwisdom. We are produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE (@dae.community on Instagram and online at mydae.org).
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comments, suggestions, or correction of errors.
You can contact us at daepresents@mydae.org.
No, is to be within a specific discipline, a specific world, a specific reality to know is extremely useful for getting things done within that particular discipline or world or reality to be an effective doctor or a pastry chef or a financial analyst. There's much that is critical to know, but knowing by its nature is bounded by, and in fact reinforcing of, the reality within which it occurs. For 25 years, I've worked with executives in large organizations, grad students, tech entrepreneurs, religious leaders, and no doubt my toughest client, myself. I'm developing the capacity to explore what lies beyond knowing, beyond certainty at a practical level. This work is required for things like innovation, but more importantly, I found that this inquiry is critical for maintaining one's humanity. Oh, and if you're generous enough to be listening to these conversations, I respectfully submit that at any point, if you feel you understand what I'm saying, you're not listening deeply enough. And the voices in today's conversation are Kyley Komschlies, Sam Ascencio, And our producer, as always, is Scott Amore. all are colleagues of mine at DAE. Let's listen in.
a.m.:I went into Manhattan on a self care day, which basically meant going to see, you know, it usually means either going to see a movie or some theater in this case. It was a movie that I can't see here. Wim Wenders' new film, Perfect Days. And again, I lead a really simple life by design. And in recent years, you know particularly with this thing, I've sort of narrowed it down even further and just really gotten very clean with, you know, how I spend my time and my energy and my focus and, and minimal clutter. Like my, my closets are shocking if you were to look at them in terms of, you know, just large collection of black t-shirts some jeans and sport coats. And that includes sort of psychological clutter, right? Like keeping a, you know, clean psychological space as well. And this film just really presents for me like, Damn, I am like still so far away from where I can see to be in terms of just, just, just, you know, being present on the planet and just focusing on that and, and, not getting distracted by all the things there are to be distracted by. And It got me thinking that, that like if, you know, it's so cliche to say, and it's a contradiction, because we get so much messaging right now about minimalism and simplicity, and the messages are all additional clutter.
Kyley:Who's your tool for?
a.m.:Yep. Here's your tool. Here's your workshop. Here's your app. Motivational poster. Yeah, well, I mean, we're past posters, now it's apps, you know, and it's AI backed apps to help you be more minimal. And It's, it's just more, you know, it's, it's, the contemporary pharmaceutical industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the new pharmaceutical industry, is digital applications. We have a digital pill for what ails you. and the thing that everyone seems to feel either overtly or under the surface, you know, where not aware is overwhelm, stress, overwhelm, overwhelm, overwhelm. And what we're doing with it is what we did with, you know, biological states and, and, and pharma intervention starting in the nineties where, you know, just overmedicate as a means to tamp down symptoms, while letting the underlying causes just, you know, keep festering. So that's what's bouncing around in my head this week. And, and Wim's gorgeous film. Go see it, go see it. Ridiculous soundtrack too, like just a bunch of Lou Reed and, and just, yeah, anyway, so that's it. That's where my head's been at is, is A, just personal realization that, that as sort of simple as my life is, there's still lots and lots and lots of stuff to strip away. And this, you know, not that I needed more concerns about the world, but, but, but just. It's my observation about the world that we are fully into a, you know, digital pill world as a solution to the mental clutter, and it's just, again self defeating.
Kyley:I sat on the couch and stared at a wall for an hour this morning.
a.m.:Yeah, man. How great is that? I do that. I'm sorry.
Kyley:I, my, my insides just turned off and I was like, I need to exercise. I need to move. I need to make food. And for whatever reason, the only thing I could do and not like overwhelmed, but like my body just demanded that I sit and stare for an hour. Yeah.
a.m.:The body needs to move. We are designed to move, but we move dysfunctionally. It's competitive and performance based. And the body needs to be still. And we do that dysfunctionally. It's like exhausted sprawling on the couch while watching something. Or collapsing to bed after taking some pills to help you sleep.
Kyley:This was an active nice cross legged posture, back up, stare at a wall, and just let my mind just run its course. And by the end of it, my body felt like a body again. And my mind was significantly more calm than it's been in three, four weeks. To expand on your, your point was, yeah, I've been in a similar thing where like my brain and my body and my insides and my, everything I have going on, I've just been moving so fast. But I don't actually get to enjoy. And my natural tendency is to just shuck things. But I also know that I need to be careful with that because I go the other route where I'm. living in a car somewhere with nothing but a journal and a Kindle and I can't, can't exist in, in today's society of having to show up to work clean and stuff. So A question that I have from that,
Sam:and
Kyley:this is the question that I'm asking myself I think in general is with the work that I do here And the people that I like, the desire to make friends and build relationships and build community. It sometimes feels like the only way to participate is to play. And playing puts me into a spiral of overwhelm and all this stuff going on and finding tools to cope as opposed to building a life that supports healthy living. I don't know what to do with that yet.
a.m.:watching stuff, they're doing
Kyley:things, they're struggling at work, they're overwhelmed, they're stressed, they're eating a quick lunch together because it's the only time they can do stuff, they're texting, they're on dating apps, they're, like even work here, I got emails, I got teams, I got this, I got this, and I, I, I, Sometimes, I mean there is a fear, there's a genuine fear that if I unplug, I don't get to play.
a.m.:But again, when you say you don't get to play, what does that mean? Play in the
Kyley:game of, like, this life. Like, the work that I do. Ah, participate. Participate, yeah. Okay, play
a.m.:in the sense of participating in the game.
Kyley:Yeah, like, I am, I am actively shucking the rules that have been established in the game. And I no longer get to be in the game anymore. And that's been my experience in my life, where like, when I have lived simply, I have been alone. And when I don't live simply, or when I engage with people, I get wrapped up. And what is the middle ground?
Sam:I'm glad you asked the question of what does play mean, because I was thinking that same thing. And, Like I also get really wrapped up in people and it has not fared well for me. I mean I Got rid of snapchat, Instagram, Facebook. Like I have stuff, but I think the only thing I keep is like LinkedIn really Yeah, that's like the only thing I use And I think TikTok is the only thing I have and like You Yeah, I kind of felt that because I didn't want to have TikTok to begin with and people like all my students would constantly be like Like well, at least when I used to work colleges, they'd be quoting TikToks. I'd be like you seen that one TikTok. I'm like No Well, I haven't seen that one TikTok and at some point I was like, I can't even Open the conversation unless I quote this one TikTok about tables being broken. That's fine It's just just buy into this and now I find myself scrolling it whenever I don't want to have like conversations or I don't want to like I have conflict. I just, I literally would just open TikTok in the middle of argument and walk away and that's not healthy, but it's just like, I don't know how else to cope in this situation. I don't know how else to like express this and I don't know how else to engage in a way that like feels like this is conflict is going to be healthy. And recently I had a conversation with my therapist where I was talking about how stressed I am with people around me and like how overwhelmed I am and he was like yeah, like, you know, like when you're in an environment that's not conducive to those things, when you're like a healthy person and you do healthy habits and people aren't used to healthy habits, they shut you out. That's what happens because, you know, they're not used to that. They're not, that comes into conflict with the being of, you know, what the world is around. And so when you are trying to do like these healthy things, it can kind of throw people off, especially if they're not used to that. And so that's kind of what comes to mind for me is, you know, like if they interact with someone who's like, yeah, do you like do this? No, I just journal and hang out in the woods, man. That just, it's. It throws them for a loop because I don't think they're, I think in a, in a deep way, like we're all focused on talking about ourselves, so they don't really want to know about your woods thing, man. They just, they'd rather talk to you about what, you know, one singular thing you can share and kind of focus in on that. So I think I agree with you, it becomes really isolating that respect because I think we're not ready to kind of be challenged and open up to other people.
a.m.:An addict considers a conversation about,sobriety to be an act of violence.
Kyley:Go to a bar with friends and tell them you don't drink tonight. Yeah.
a.m.:Well, but even, I mean, that's like a, like a casual, like, I'm going to go drinking, right?
Kyley:That was more like just a, a linking it to a relatable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's a, that's a relatable.
a.m.:But I, I, listen, I do think, I don't, I don't think it's, it's hyperbolic to say that, that, that this is a culture built on addiction. In part, right? Yeah. And, you know, I am not a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist or in any way a mental health expert. And so what I'm about to say is just, like, layperson talk. Like, addiction, you know, I sort of think of in part, you know, it's biological components, it's complex, right? But in part, it's the filling yourself with something that you're very happy with. That it's a substitute for what it is you're needing. And that something either anesthetizes or alters your state to a degree that that actual need, you know, is, is suppressed, right? I think there may be a, you know, again, not maybe there are biological components there, you know. But, well, let me say the effect that it has. is certainly a certain kind of There's a lot of that in the society around stuff, achievement, money, etc. Where none of those things have stuff. It's great, I like my stuff. Some of my stuff. Trying to have less and less stuff. But yeah, I like my notebook. I like my notebook. That's stuff, right? Nothing wrong with stuff, nothing wrong with money, nothing wrong with achievement. But it's engaged with as a substitute for something, I think. And so when you talk to people about their addictions, that they don't realize their addictions. You know? And talk about Sitting for an hour and doing nothing. Are you depressed? Something's wrong?
Kyley:Well, this is actually a, a, a
Sam:That's the first thing that came to my mind.
Kyley:Well, it's, it's oddly a solution for that in some capacity. This is, this is me coming out of what a depressive state is. The ability to sit quietly and not have to do or fill.
a.m.:It's my Saturdays, you know, like I, I, I, I yeah, I have this like Saturday routine. It's like the farmer's market. You know, I've talked about it a lot. I'm so in love with City Seed Farmer's Market, didn't you name it? Uh, The Worcester Square Farmer's Market. And it's like, you know, you walk there, spend an hour, hour and a half there, talk to people and get my produce, maybe some bread, you know, come home, spend a couple hours cooking and then I just sit. And like, drink some coffee. And the food's prepped for like the next two days basically, you know. If I'm going out, the food's prepped for like three or four days because, you know, it's gonna be like extra. And then, you know, then I'll go to the gym and I got plans that night, whatever. But there's always just like the market, some food prep, and then just sitting with a cup of coffee. Just nothing, just sitting there. Not meditating, it's not like that, just sitting there. Just existing. Sam's not down with it? Like, no. Nope. No.
Sam:You see, I hate when people say that, because they're like, have you never done that? And coming from like, a place of like, it's like one of those things where I have, I'm really close to someone who has schizophrenia. So it's very funny because I am, my disorder is actually on the borderline of that, so we can't import it. Experience similar things. So sometimes like you ever just like sit and there's just screaming. He's like, yeah, man what time I opened my coffee cream and there was just screaming and I'm like Yeah Yeah And I always think about that with people like I could just sit and think and I'm like that is my actual Nightmare, just imagine sitting there and just waiting for something terrifying to happen. Is this like your mind just God and it's just it's just no, it's just my fear that it's the funny thing is like you can't even escape it by Filling it with things either. So it's like, where do you where do you go? And like you either choose being like heavily medicated so you don't feel that thing But then you're not a person and you're just it's almost like you're always staring at the wall, but you're never really feeling anything Where you experience this weird pseudo dichotomy of reality and non reality which is a really weird thing when you're talking people who are like neurotypical and they don't experience this like this duality of the realness and the non realness because I think you get like a lot more of a Like a human perspective when you start to realize like what your mind makes when it's trying to cope with the world around you Like I have when I was a kid This is something that happened to me is like I was I was trying to do like the quiet thing I was like, I'm gonna be a meditator. I'm gonna do Buddhism And I was sitting there trying to meditate one day and I opened my eyes and my entire room was melting and I was freaking out I was like, oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god Like is this a dream? I'm like, am I, am I like, you know, like in this thing? I had no idea what was happening. It was much later that I realized this was like due to a mental disorder And I was like, why? Why was it happening? And I thought about that like many years later and I realized it was because it felt like the world around me was melting and falling apart. Not quickly, not fast, but like very slowly. Almost something that I could just not necessarily always get a hold of. And my reality was very distorted. And so that's something I think about too, is like, it's really interesting when people talk to me about their perceptions and realities of the world. How they view things and like how they engage and just being an entire different space from them and still engaging It's just really interesting. It gets it's really interesting to see the duality of one's mind Brought into the like what you see as reality
a.m.:So stripping stuff away doesn't work for you
Scott:Yeah, I found that the silence meditation, you know, eyes closed, sitting on the floor. Well, while I could do it, it's not something that I really felt was beneficial to me long term. And then I sort of came into it like this non dual teachings of like, you know, whatever you're doing, make it a meditation. Yeah. So I've become much more aware of like, you know, we talked about this a long time ago, washing the dishes. Like, paying a close attention to every dish and what part you're doing and not having thoughts about like, Oh, the other day this time somebody said this and having these conversations, these imaginary conversations about what might happen or what did happen or what I should have done. So getting into those process meditations, you know, Mowing the lawn or doing the laundry and trying to maintain focus on one. You know, do I wrote something, pops up every day on my computer, do one thing at a time and do it well. Mm-Hmm, So that's kind of, you know, how I'm overlaying it over my life of not just sitting in silence for two hours a week, like cumulative, two hours a week, but trying to make that conscious awareness be part of every task that I'm doing. And, you know, obviously there's gonna be things that interrupt it. You know, I was sitting in traffic for two hours and 45 minutes last night coming home from Stanford, so that was not fun. But it was an opportunity to have a, you know, process awareness meditation of parked on the side of the Merritt waiting for things to move. Let's see how long this takes. You know, I was able to listen to a little podcast and sit in silence and then kind of think about, you know, How things are gonna unfold as I move forward and then next thing you know, I was moving. So it kind of helped collapse that time into something that I wasn't freaking out. Everybody around me was getting out of their car and like, you know, looking down the street and trying to figure out what was going on. One guy hopped over the railing and like went to the bathroom in the woods and you know, so all these things are happening around me and I was just kind of watching it all and trying not to, you know, not trying not to react but just not reacting.
a.m.:There's a a room, a chamber. It's part of a scientific I think it was built for an experiment,
Scott:The anechoic chamber.
a.m.:Zero sound. It is so absent sound that you, you know, literally can hear the blood moving through your body, and people freak out more. So silence, you know, we talk about meditation and these mindful states, right? It's not like, silence. stillness in a certain way. It's like, actually, nothing, like this table is not still. This table is moving. Our, you know, sample rate of observation It's both too rapid and too short in duration to see it moving. But it's moving, and it's disintegrating, and it's, you know, right? And so, you know, it's not silence, it's not stillness. It's, it's it's not being hooked by the stuff.
Scott:The, the anechoic chamber thing. I remember a long time ago, I saw a documentary about John Cage, the experimental composer, and he did the same thing. He went into the anechoic chamber and he sat there and he realized that there's no such thing as silence. Even in that environment, there's still two sounds. There's a high frequency sound, which is your nervous system, and a low frequency sound, which is your circulatory system And that is the chamber. Two things that are constant, but it's always drowned out by ambience and reflections and whatever room we're in. You know, if you're in a bright room like this, it's, you know, get any of that. But in that anechoic chamber, there's still those two constant sounds and you can sort of control them with your thoughts. If you spend enough time thinking about, I'm going to slow down my circulation or I'm going to slow down my nervous system. You have conscious control over them once you recognize them.
Sam:You know what that reminds me of? Oh, like adjacent. I don't know, have you ever heard of that art piece where I think it's like 2 minutes and 35 seconds? And it's like silence.
Scott:That's the same guy.
Sam:The same guy. Yeah, that's the guy.
Scott:Four minutes and 33 seconds.
Sam:Yes. There you go. That one. I have watched that so many times in class and it's like my favorite thing to watch because They just they just lift up the top of the piano cover and just sit there And the song is the people around them for the duration of that entire time
Scott:Coughs and sirens and whatever's going on inside
Sam:and I love that piece so much because it's one it's different every single time, but it's so interesting to see like people doing things they're like What are we doing? What's the thing?
a.m.:This is exactly what we're talking about. It's just sitting on the couch for an hour. You did it with John Cage.
Sam:See, like, I guess I do, man. Like, see, the thing is, I think it's like if I try to do that meditation thing where I try to focus, it doesn't work.
a.m.:Yeah. It's the getting hooked.
Sam:Yeah. And
a.m.:even, and this is my concern about the digital, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but about the digital apps, right? And the solution. As soon as you put a solution to it and a thing to do,
Sam:yeah,
a.m.:you've got it. You started from a place where you will never get to what it is you're after. Right? This is exactly where, where, where, what I've been ruminating on, right? Is, you're right. If I start thinking about, okay, I have to be calm. I'm gonna make myself silent. I'm gonna, like, you're already done. Yeah. But the experience you're talking about, watching that John Cage thing, this is what I'm, I think what's Kyley pointing to, but he can speak for himself, obviously, but that's what I'm pointing to, of just, like, It's not anything stopping. It's that I'm just observing and I'm not participating.
Kyley:Yeah. The hooks for me this morning would have been exercising, making food. Like those are the, my brain being like, I gotta do this stuff so I can be ready for the day. And instead I'm like, I'm sitting here is what I'm going to be doing right now. And whatever that is, it is what it is. I'm just going to be here sitting until I don't want to be sitting anymore.
Scott:I think the thing is like, where does the judgment come from? Is that external? Is it internal? Is it a combination?
Sam:I'd say it's a combination for sure.
Scott:You know, I must be doing something instead of like, my body says stop right now.
Kyley:For me, it's, it's this like, my body feels tired and big and full of food and stuck and like I know I need to move it. Like, that's, if I'm going to continue to live and or do my work, I gotta get my body moving. But it wasn't the time.
Scott:But then you got up?
Kyley:I got up, I fed Frejya, took her outside, she went to the bathroom, and my whole nervous system was like, you just need to sit on the couch and stare at a wall.
Sam:For your favorite part, where I loop this back to students. It's actually really interesting because I was thinking about this yesterday. I was running a different activity with students and it was kind of a culmination of everything I have ever done, everything I've ever really learned. And it was very kind of like a last minute thing based on something that I had had prior. And um, at some point I was noticing the students like kind of working through this thing. The only thing I gave them was like this challenge to complete. It gave them a tool to do it and I was like, listen, I'm not going to give you any answers. I'm not going to say anything to you. I'm not even going to be here really to help. You are in charge of your own learning. And I believe that you're fully capable of doing this. You have researchers around you, you have ChatGPT, you have Google, and you have each other. So I let them kind of, I just gave them the challenge. I was like, this is my only market for success. And at some point, you know, I'm noticing that like, one of them had come late and they're trying to catch up. Pinky and myself were like, you know, like talk to the other students and I was like, well I really want them to be able to talk with each other Like how can I do that? And something I was kind of fighting in myself was like I have to give them the answers I have to be there. I have to explain to them like they still don't really know what i'm asking Maybe I wasn't clear enough because there was so much like silence about it. They were so deeply focused. I was so unsure So like as a leap of faith, I was like, okay Me and Kay are gonna step away. Fully step away. We're not even gonna be in the space. You are fully in charge of each other and your cohort's success. Like, and so we stepped away in such a way we could still see them but that we were almost like essentially leaving the space. Like it was funny cause there's like a section over there where it's like my carpet and like tile. So we were literally on the other side of the line just watching them. And it was really interesting to just watch them talk and engage and figure things out. And in that moment, it was just really scary for me because like, it was almost like, are they going to make it? Is everything going to be okay? Will, will things end up okay? And the end product was absolutely just eyeopening because. They had figured out things that I hadn't even told them. They had figure out, they had used, all of them had used different resources to come to the same conclusion and it was really full and comprehensive and I could not pull them off their computers. I was like, all right, break time. And they're bringing their computer. I'm like, it's, it's break, it's break time. You got to put it down. And this, no, I, one of them had to take the computer. They're just really attached to it. And I was like, wow, I have the opposite. Most days where I'm like, great time. Then they run, basically leave the computer behind. But I could not, they were asking for more time. They were very, very engaged, very engaged in the tool. And when a student left that day, they had told me like, I generally thought today was going to be boring, it was just going to be a time filler, and, you know, when I first was introduced to the tool, I felt super intimidated, and I was really anxious, and I got through it. And like, you could see, like, them work through that entire process, and that was something that, like, I had always wanted to have as an educator, like I always wanted to be like a high school teacher. That was something I wanted way back when. And I never got to have that experience because I was told never to do it. And just kind of seeing that process, I realized something. It's like, just that kind of idea of like, for me as an educator, just taking the step back to just observe the space and let it be. Whether that's, that's messy or whether that is clean is also important for student learning. And in taking a step back and looking at my learning, I realized that was something I really deeply needed was just an educated, say like, you're smart enough. You can do this. The tools here, it might be confusing. It might be hard, but like you will get there. How about it? And that was really eyeopening. So it's, it's really interesting that you like, you say that Kyley, what your body needs. And I think that's something that. I think teachers and educators aren't really stepping back and thinking about it. Sometimes the students bodies are telling them they're tired, they're sleepy, or they just, they need a different challenge. And we're not making enough space for that kind of feedback to be heard and implemented in real time, even if it is messy.
Scott:Every bit of order has a little bit of chaos in there.
a.m.:Workplaces, classrooms, It's very machined. We've always been pretty good about letting students be as they need to be that day. I'm not going to say the gentleman's name, but I remember back, you know, two years ago there was a young man who'd come in and I think we wound up taking him off the books just because it felt wrong to, you know, count him as a student. But he'd come in and sleep. He'd go into the cafeteria area back in the previous location we were in and he'd be crashed out because he wasn't getting enough sleep at home. And they're like, we were his nap spot. And, cool, that's gonna help you in the rest of your day, make it through school, make it through whatever, yeah. He'd wake up for food, you know. At five o'clock we do the food, and he'd wake up, he'd eat, and then he'd go back to sleep. And he'd wind up getting threatened. And like I said, we, you know, like we, you know, we wouldn't quote unquote graduate or provide credential or whatever, but, you know. Yeah. If what he needed was a place to sleep for three hours because he's not getting that elsewhere. Cool. Don't come here to sleep. Intentionally. This stuff is all in the context of commitment. Where the sort of rules of behavior come into place, they become necessary because There is not the work done to create systems of commitment. And so what we get instead is compliance. And so I have these rules where you, you know, you can't do this, you can't do that, to ensure that we get to an outcome. But, if you're willing to do the work of commitment, which is messier linear, less predictable Less, you know, person in the front driven. You can let go of a lot of rules. And it's not a novel, like, this is how we, you know, a healthy family doesn't have a lot of rules. There's a sort of, you know, set of relationships and respect and values that keeps the thing together, and there's some rules. But, unhealthy? Tons of rules.
Kyley:I might reframe the family one as boundaries. There are boundaries that you hit. Yeah. I don't know that they're generally rules. Yeah.
a.m.:Well, I So to fortunate for you, if you've not encountered families, like, like I know people, I know people now. Yeah. Like their, they, their homes. Like they wouldn't think of it this way, but I look at them and think, oh, you got a business. You know what I mean? In terms of like, like their, like productivity quotient basically. And, you know, there's a difference between I'm co accountable for the space, and so things like keeping it clean, and trash, and laundry, and that's out of a sense of, even if I don't feel like doing it, it's out of a commitment to the space. There's a difference between that and you've got performance standards, that if you don't hit, you're not going to get A, B, and C. Like, those are rules of consequences, you know?
Scott:What it feels like is, when you have those sort of rules of consequence and expectations, it can very easily for, you know, I probably imagine for a lot of kids, turn into like, you can't really be who you are here. So then they look for places like this to come take a nap or play a game or hang out with friends and stuff and be, Who they really are reminds me of what you said on the first day for orientation you are okay already. And then the rest of it, it was kind of like, where are we going to go from that point? Probably don't get that a lot of places, if any place at all, even in their own families.
a.m.:And it's actually, Scott, I think worse than, than, than the way you just expressed it. Because the way you expressed it is the human being is still left with the awareness of who I am. And, and most of where it plays out is that the questions never even get asked and it gets suppressed. And so I am these outcomes, right? I am then the high school outcome, and then I'm the college outcome, and then I'm the job outcome, and then I'm the, you know, whatever outcome, right? And so the question never even gets asked. There isn't time to come to a place like DAE. You know, DAE feels like sitting on the couch for an hour. I don't know if they do that. And then, and then, you know, fast forward four years and we get the kind of results we do. And so you see kids going to do, you know, interesting things and it goes, Oh, okay. No, they're not sitting on a couch. Maybe I will go there. And then some of them get here and it's like, wait, you're sitting on a couch.
Kyley:Yeah, I think that's, that's something we bumped into this year and some of last year. It was, is. Because we don't have that prescriptive, this is who we expect you to be. The places who demand that from them tend to get attention because they're the fires that need to be put out. Yeah. Like my AP classes, I have a B in my AP class. I need to leave for the week to make sure I get my AP class up to an A because they're the ones who are, this is who I have to be.
a.m.:So, so, so I'll go back to the word I was using earlier, addiction, right? Yeah. It's, it's, I, I get generated by these things, and so I need them
Kyley:Yeah.
a.m.:In order to feel like I'm actually here. Like I don't have any relationship with generating my own experience.
Kyley:Yeah.
a.m.:And so if I'm not, these seven things that I've been told make for being a human being, who the hell am I If I don't get into, into MIT, if I don't like the MI t's, great. Go to MIT. If you can get in, great. But the, the, the connection point is always the problem. If this, then that. If I do that, then I'm okay. If I achieve this, then I'm okay. That's, that's the addiction part. And if you sit on couches long enough, you realize, oh shit, yeah, everything's okay. It's not perfect, but it's okay. I'm gonna else eventually, but I'm okay.
Scott:me of one of my favorite quotes that I dug up here by Alan Watts, who's been a, you know, sage for me. The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple and yet everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves. So start from that wholeness and everything you do can be a gift and a growth, is kind of the way I perceive that.
Sam:does that still like even apply to like marginalized folks? Like I've been thinking about this, right? Like If you're experiencing houselessness, if you're experiencing actual, you know, clinical addiction, if you've been ostracized by a system that is meant to isolate you, how does one Navigate that perspective of like, you know, the idea of like, you know, going back to this idea that we've been bringing up is like the sitting on the couch and I am okay. Like, how do you do that when literally you have no place to go? You have no couch. Yeah. Like how? Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like the proverbial couch. Like, and I, I've been thinking about that.
a.m.:So, mean, I've got, I've got. Two responses Sam, the second one is lived experience on it But but one is I mean listen if to use a medical analogy, right? Like I'm speaking about health
Sam:but
a.m.:if you've got a bullet wound Health is not the concern Remediation of your wound is the concern and so if the kind of marginalized situations you're talking about Yeah, man, what I'm talking about is not the priority You The priority is remediate the wound, right? If you're unhoused, that's got to, you know, we got to figure out how to help you take care of that. And I have shared my story, like I said, you know, room this size, seven people, no indoor plumbing. And I was sitting on the couch. Because I was around people, my grandfather, my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, man, it's like just It's unexplainable the impact he had on my life and, and who he was, like, you know a moral force within his community. And so in the context of that extreme sort of, you know, condition I, I was in fact, as a, as a young human, able to sit on the couch. Doesn't mean I didn't need my bullet wounds, tended to, right? But I do think it's possible it's not, you know, magic wand, it's not, you know, it's not do this and then the other stuff goes away. This film, this film is you know the story of without, gloriously without romanticizing it or, or any of that. The lead character is he cleans toilets in, in Tokyo. He's part of the crew of, you know. And Also doesn't that, well I guess he does have indoor play, but he goes to a bathhouse every day. It's his thing, he takes his showers and you know. And one of the things I love about the film is it doesn't romanticize it. It doesn't, you know, fail to acknowledge the difficulty of it. So anyway, There's two, I think. One is, yes, absolutely. Like, if there are open wounds, as it were, those have to get tended to. It's a different sort of domain of focus than what I'm speaking to. And then I also find it a certain potential kind of, I know you're not meeting it this way, but. I won't say the organization, because it's a local organization, but I was at a strategic planning session for a very large non profit, and they invited some people to come and, you know, and this, this non profit, you know, serves, a variety of constituencies, all of them potentially, you know, marginalized and, and mainly economically marginalized. And the conversation was this sort of like, we have to have to have them get these things so that then they can be happy and be in community and have good relationships. And I'm like, wait, so you're gating human happiness with material stability. Like, that's to me violent. You must take care of the, you know, we have a moral obligation, particularly given how affluent we are, to take care of these financial needs. Absolutely. But to say that you have to do that in order for the human being to be happy is to say that, that, that happiness requires, These material things, which is part of the oppression of this kind of, you know, system we're living under. Right. And so I think both are true for me. It's like, yes, we have to tend, absolutely have to tend to the, the, the, you know, the wounds of marginalized people and we can't deny them the access to happiness while tending to their wounds, right. Contentment and, and presence and calm and silence.
Sam:Yeah. Cause I wonder about that. Like if, if everything is. Hard and falling apart, right? If you are in a severely marginalized situation, how do you still find that? Like, in a sense, everything's already been stripped away from you, right? So all there is left is to reflect. And so how do you make that in a, in a, in a meaningful way that allows you to accept the reality of the way things are, except that those realities aren't necessarily always fair, but still give yourself a pathway to. You know, happiness to being, general okayness is, I guess, is the thing that I'm reflecting on.
a.m.:I'm, I'm sorry, as we're talking, literally, I got a ping from somebody I haven't talked to in quite a while. A colleague with whom I was running a podcast a couple years ago. And they have decided to go to Columbia to get their PhD after, you know, they're kind of mid career and just decided to go to Columbia. And this is the text I got literally three minutes ago as, as we were talking. And I haven't, I haven't talked to her in, like, close to a year. We still communicate, but just, you know, busy lives. I went to the protests today and sat in the middle of the encampment in a circle reading poetry with one of the professors. And some of the students, I read Uncle Walt, I refer to Walt Whitman as Uncle Walt, and I thought of you and and then she copied the poem and it's Whitman's Ebb'd with the Ocean of Life. And I won't read that because it's very long, but we will absolutely include it in the show notes here. Because like, it's like, like, in the context of what we're talking about, it is like, like just, just a glorious piece of synchronicity.
Scott:Yeah, so the, taking it as how to help those who might experience marginalization is the responsibility of the rest of us, right? It's kind of what activism and allyship is about, in a lot of levels and how do we do that from a place of wholeness ourselves, not, not become fragmented to align with them, but how do we stay whole and provide that space. Very similar to the students, provide a space for them to be naturally as they are in that day or that moment and then, you know, show the paths that are available from that place.
Sam:Yeah.
Scott:It's not about, oh, let me give you something and now I've done my, my bit. It's how do I continue to maintain that space in a place of sharing and caring and responsibility.
Sam:yeah, cause I'm, I'm thinking about the story I read once, which is I think it was called like those who walk away from the city of Omelas or something like that. And basically it's a story of like this whole town, everyone's happy, everyone is happy. Right. And it tells you about how everyone is happy in this town and then it stops and it says, except for one person. And it's one child, one singular child. Who lives in the worst way possible. They suffer in agony. They carry the agony of every single person in that town. And they will never not feel agony till the day they die. But, because this person feels this, everyone else will forever be happy. And every year they take the kids down to see this kid on a field trip so they can see the kid suffering and know the history of this kid and etc, etc. And so the story follows this field trip of kids who go to go see this kid suffering. And after they leave, a couple of them leave. Leave the city of Omelas. And it's just basically like, kind of this idea, like, after the disgust is like how do you feel about happiness knowing that there are others around you who may not always be in that same place? And like, obviously this is a very broad thing, but in relating to kind of what everyone's been speaking about it, it brings a lot to mind where it's like, kind of your, to your part, Scott, where it's like, it's all about creating that space for people to have that idea. But it's also, I think, about creating the space to have conversations. And also like what Kyley was saying earlier is, I think it's also important that we recognize that people are coming from different spaces. We've left different spaces in a sense. We could have left our own version of Omelas. Like we could have left our own version of what could have been happiness. We could have left high paying jobs. We could have left great families. We could have left great friends behind because there were certain things that we just inherently didn't agree with. And we have to find that thing. And all of this is a lot of complexity and there's no real answer here, at least not for me right now, but there is happiness. There is joy to be found in just the reflection of life itself. And that can be really difficult when you're in a marginalized situation, but that doesn't mean it's impossible And I think it's important that we model that when we are in those situations We model that when we are in privileged situations, but we also acknowledge that sometimes it can come from a privileged space And we need to create more space for people who aren't as privileged to have that to do that That's kind of what i'm my takeaways from this
Scott:Interesting how the people who have the most capacity to help the most people are the, as they get to that point, are the ones that are least likely to actually go for that. And, and we've talked about that quite a bit, like the, you know, the big man theory is going to save everything or like, you know, some hero, which then becomes just, you know, the richest person in the world instead of the hero.
a.m.:it's, a, you know, yet another dysfunction in society. My grandfather was just, just, I don't know what you're saying, like, was, was referring to modeling what it is to be happy in the context of marginalization. Like that, that's the gift I got as a young human, right? So I, yeah, very much resonate with what you're saying. One of the, you know, many dysfunctions another way we glorify great men and, and, you know, is, is through philanthropy, But the, the. The personal sacrifice involved in somebody worth, you know, 3 billion, giving away 50 million is trivial compared to somebody making 30, 000 giving away 3 bucks on the street to, you know, to an unhoused person. And yet, we will take out full page news articles. For that 50 million donation. And if you try to have this conversation, it becomes, Oh, you people are never happy. You're, you know, blah, blah, blah. Right. But it's, it's an inherent sort of contradiction in the system. I have found fairly consistently, I, I don't, I've always had a really, I get, I get through genetic luck and, and right time, right era. Like I got the wiring to make a lot of money. Like I've always been good at, right? And I've always been really uncomfortable with affluence. Like I've, I've actively not pursued and not, you know, lived that way. Because I, to the question you asked, I, I, I'm not sure how to be comfortable with three houses and five cars. In the context of what I know about the world. Like, I'm just not, I don't judge other, I genuinely don't judge other people for it. I have friends who live that way. It's not my business, but I just, I can't, I just, in my bones, I can't understand it.
Scott:I took the Coursera version of the Yale online course, the happiness class, one of those, you know, most attended. And, through the course of that, you realize that you're not alone. Affluence, you know, there's a, there's a level of compensation that you hit that the returns on happiness are, you know, marginal over about the time it was like 77, 000. I think with inflation and stuff, it's probably like a hundred and something, 105 or something. Once you make more than that, it's like 150. So once you, once you, once you make more than that threshold, then the return on happiness is marginal, but finds that the. Return on time affluence is exponential. So the more you hit a certain point where you have enough time affluence, that's where the success stories come from. Because you can be that whole person and then make a, you know, an effectual change in the community that you choose to serve.
a.m.:But here's the problem, Scott, is there are a lot of, you know, upper middle class and wealthy folks with a lot of time affluence. And what do they do with their time? Playing, you know, get a flight of scotland to play to play 18 holes. Yeah, we're gonna you know again Go to one of our four houses And all that stuff is great like I don't you know, it's cool. It's fun. I get it but that's what tends to happen where big and again, it gets back to if you're Wealthy folks are as trapped by this system another, you know contradiction wealthy folks are as trapped by this system as Extremely poor folks are It's a really bizarre thing. They're trapped in, now they're trapped in a really comfortable bed with really nice food. And you know,
Scott:the handcuffs are soft,
a.m.:but, but, but, but, but they are handcuffs nonetheless, because the access to the things we started talking about in this conversation, my experience is that they are just as blocked off, right? I had a client and a coaching client who's an executive in a financial services firm. Who was in, and this sounds ridiculous, it's so easy to judge this, and yet, it's a human being having an experience. Who was in a state of legitimate stress and anxiety because they made a promise to their wife that they were going to sell the house that they had. Now that the kids were grown, they were going to sell the house they had. And buy a slightly smaller house in the same affluent town, but then buy a summer home in, you know,
Scott:in, in, in. It sounds
a.m.:terrible. But no, no, no, here's the problem. His bonus was only 1. 4 million and it was supposed to be, he's at 3 million cap. And so it was less than half of what the cap was. And he can't afford. This is like seven years ago and he couldn't afford it. And so again, we sit here and thought this is ridiculous. What an asshole. Right? Right. And yet the anxiety was, he was having legitimate anxiety, was the same anxiety as somebody with a$1,200 rent who doesn't know how to pay their rent that month. Again, it sounds, it is dysfunctional, but if you take just the human experience of it, right, and so this is why I say it's the same trap. At a larger scale, it's tougher to feel sorry for because, you know, they're eating well and they're whatever, but it is the same trap. Not enough. Not enough. And so we victimize folks on the lower end of the scale.
Sam:Yeah.
a.m.:And we overstuff people on the high end of the scale. You know, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, Like, if, if, if the people who are being ground down by the system at the low end of the wage scale are, are the equivalent of factory farmed cows, the people on the high end of the scale are the you know, grass fed pasture raised cows. Who are still headed to the slaughterhouse and are not roaming free.
Scott:Yeah, I felt that pretty acutely last weekend. I went to Visit the glass house in New Canaan, Philip, you know, Philip Johnson's iconic glass house and, you know, paid 100 for the three hour tour got the tour of all the galleries and all the stuff on the compound. And it's more than just the glass house. It turns out there's, you know, tons and tons of stuff on that property. And then you realize, as they're telling you, like, this guy was, like, born into wealth. Became influenced by art and architecture very early on and started collecting art as soon as he started making money from architecture. And then, bequeathed this whole compound to the National, you know, Historic Trust. And now they manage it and then charge money for maintenance and, you know, whatever they're doing. But you're looking at the pieces of art, you know, millions and millions of dollars of art in a custom made buildings that have rotating walls for you can change the display every year and have all the paintings from this collection that haven't been gifted to museums. And I'm just thinking like, It could probably fit like 400 people living in this space, you know, first off, like, you know, even in the the storage rooms and stuff. It's like enough to really put a dent in the houseless, you know, population in nearby cities. But it's just this dichotomy of like, I paid a hundred bucks to learn this and I'm feeling pretty crummy being here, but it's pretty awesome at the same time because of my interest in architecture. So, it's like this weird, like, push pull. That I get. And art, you know, overpriced art as an, you know, asset, no, asset class is the only one that never really loses any money. It only goes up.
Sam:I have another question, because this came to mind. Based on what you were talking about. On the concept of like, you know, like the, the hook, like the thing that you're like chasing after, right? And like the idea of like time. Mm hmm. How do you think that applies to like, you know, activists like who eventually get burnt out just doing activism? Like, what do you think is like, what are your thoughts on that?
a.m.:Well I mean, I think burnout can be in, in any form, you know, at least two, two causes. One is losing connection with, with the community. the spark that had you, you know, whether it's, it's, it's burnout from painting, right? That's like my life's work and yet I'm burned out of being a painter or burned out of activism, burned out of education as you lose the connection to the commitment and it becomes like thing you're doing, right? I think the second though, that is more specific to these kind of scenarios is, I don't have a lot, I read all the philosophers I read everything when I was younger, and I have not had any use for Western philosophers just personally, other than Camus. I'm very fond of Camus. And Camus writes so, you know, Sisyphus, right? Pushing the rock of the dawn. Camus famously wrote at the book about Sisyphus, one must imagine Sisyphus happy.
Sam:Oh, I love that.
a.m.:Right? And the reality is the kind of work that you're pointing to that people are doing, it is a boulder up a hill, where there are people on the other side of the boulder, you can't necessarily see because it's behind hidden doors, pushing back down. And the burden of that, and the realization at a certain point, of the fact that, you know, the rock is not going to get to the top of the hill in my lifetime. I don't know if it ever will. Can be crushing to the spirit.
Scott:I heard a different take on on the Sisyphean kind of story yesterday in waiting in traffic in the car again. The idea was Thinking about, like, sort of reframing the story, and if you think about the infinite nature of pushing the boulder up the hill, eventually, you're gonna wear down the hill to a flat surface and wear down the boulder to a pile of sand.
a.m.:That's a hustle and grind mindset. I reject it.
Scott:No, I just mean, like, if you think about the concept of eternity, that, that is what we need to think about in eternity. It's like, everything's gonna change. It's never gonna be that, like, It's not life's work, it's eternal work of finding the reason why to keep pushing.
Sam:It's so funny, I heard it take on Sisyphus too, which was imaginary pushing the boulder up the hill. And every time it comes back down, or every time it gets heavier, every time it gets, like, imagine, like, even if, every time it gets easier, it will, something will make it harder, whatever that thing is, whether it's people, the gods, whatever it is. And, you know, when they ask him, like, how are you doing? He's happy. And the idea is that, like, you can find joy in the absurdity of life. And the absurdity of life is like, it's terrible. Life is terrible. It's, it's, it's never easier. It's always going to get harder. But the thing, I forgot the person who said this to me, but it was like, Sisyphus kind of like looked at everyone was like, yeah, but the gods gave me this task. Of all the people, they gave me this task. Yes, I push a boulder up a hill, and no matter what I do, it comes back down. And no matter how, if it ever gets easier, it gets harder. But I alone am the one tasked to do this. And that itself is a joy. And I think that's, that really makes sense when you put in the context of like, activism and burnout and finding that passion and taking that step back is, You know, like, the path you have in life, only you alone can take, and no matter how hard it gets, whether you are marginalized, whether you are affluent or privileged, like, you alone must carry that boulder, and to find meaning in that absurdity is entirely up to you. Yep.
Kyley:I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a take on Sisyphus, and I'm gonna make it up in my own brain right now. We're just gonna keep going around the circle. Square? We're taking Sisyphus as an individual. Activism sometimes feels like an individual. But if you have somebody put wheat down in front of the boulder, grind up some grains, somebody can make bread for Sisyphus. Like, you're not alone. Feeling like Sisyphus feels like alone. You're the only one that can push the boulder, but somebody's got to feed you. He's like, little help, little help over here. Do whatever you want, but I want to be careful with that because I get trapped in that like, I am the only one pushing this boulder, and I will be the only one who can do this. And while I can only do the work, I still need someone to take care of me and I need to be able to take care of somebody to do it.
Scott:Hence the sitting and staring at the wall for an hour to regroup.
Sam:I mean, Sisyphus is watched by the gods, you know, so the gods can produce bread.
a.m.:I, I, I, it may be both. For me, it's both, Kyley, right? So there is, you know, absolutely, again, there's no secret, right, community. Everything is, everything is relationship, community. It's a fallacy. I think you do anything on your own, like just. That cup of tea, right? 10, 000 people involved to get you that cup of tea. Literally, probably more. So yeah, I'm with you. And my work and my boulder is mine. Yep. To push the rest of my life, right? Yeah. And so it's both of those things, right? And Camus was an absurdist, right? You know, the idea that life, you know, Life is inherently meaningless in the sense of objective meaning and human beings sort of attempts at Pretending otherwise is sort of absurd but but Camus also said you know that the realization of the absurdity is not the end point is the place to start from and then Push your rock, but imagines this if it's happy
Sam:I want to move away from the center and move closer and closer to the edge without ever truly falling off.
a.m.:Mm hmm Yeah. Only those who approach, this is Uncle Kurt now, only those who approach the edge can see over the side.
Sam:Yeah, I mean, I think that kind of points back to that story I was talking about, like the ones who leave the city of Omelas, because if you put that entire burden on one person, right? There are people who inherently don't agree with that and will walk away, right? Like, while yes, what you do can inherently help a lot of people, a lot of people don't agree with a singular person being the one that suffers for that. So I mean, if you apply that to the context of, you know, Sisyphus, right? While yes, they carry that boulder and how they make that meaning matters and the absurdity of it all. The fact that other people are talking about it in that way is kind of that idea that they're not alone in that. Other people want, don't want them to experience that. Other people don't want them to be alone in that. In fact, the gods themselves, like. are constantly there as a presence to ensure that something changes, whether it's harder or more difficult a challenge that makes this more and more absurd as you go along. So in an inherent way, like any system that causes you to feel that way, you're not inherently alone in that. But in a sense, like if you could see it that way, right, you are that child in Omelas like you are the one suffering for your community. But there are people who will walk away from that because they don't want that. That is not the way they see justice. That's not the way they see That's not, they, you know, they would prefer that if you stare at the wall, that you have the space to do that and all the things that you need done still get done. Like that's, that's what that is.
a.m.:That, that, that story, by the way, is, is, is, is basically the Jesus narrative, right? A, a, a single being taking human form and taking out all of the sins for the rest of humanity. That that is that is the narrative. And now there are other references that that are older than Jesus. And so, you know taking a purely academic and historical perspective on it. No, no religion talk necessarily, but but that is that is that is the core of the of the of the Jesus story, right? God made flesh, taking on and suffering exponentially. To take on the inherent, you know, kind of Badness, unhappiness, sin of every other living human being and then to be lived human being and all you have to do then is accept and You can be happy Because Jesus has already taken on the pain for you
Sam:So I actually decided to look it up. It's actually called The Ones Who Walk Away from a Omelas by Ursula K. Le Guin. Hopefully I pronounced that right.
Scott:Ursula K. Le Guin.
Sam:Thank you, Le Guin. And yeah, so the story is basically about searching for something more profound, like the true meaning of happiness, and that the biggest problem with our society is that we are too focused on individual gain, and not enough on the happiness and well being of everyone.
a.m.:Mm. Sounds like commie talk to me. It's, it's it's fast. I really, and I need to wrap here. You guys can continue. But you folks can continue. You humans can continue. I keep bouncing around those three. I mean, you caught yourself the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the, the You know, every, every, every time the word sort of communist is used in the West, it's, it's, you know, in response to some broader social good initiative. But I, I, I read something yesterday that does. Pretty, pretty solid. Every now and again, you know, the internet delivers a worthwhile meme. And it was, and it was It's a now and then. It was, it was Like, I'm not big on meme culture, you know, but every now and again you get one that's like, Oh, this is, okay, this captures an interesting meme. No, no, excuse me. Historically, it has always been a bad idea to be in opposition to student movements. With the hindsight of history, it is always Always side with the kids. If kids are protesting, always side with them, basically, because historically they're gonna get proven right. It's like, wow, okay. I kind of sat and thought about that for a couple hours last night, trying to trace back and, you know.
Scott:1988, when I first started taking the bus coming down to New Haven to ride my skateboard around, in Beinecke Plaza, right at Yale, was this makeshift shantytown, in protest of Yale's investment in South Africa, at the time. Yes.
a.m.:Occupy Short memory. Yeah. Even more recently, Occupy Wall Street. The, the undue power that the financial sector has and the concentration of wealth, which has only exploded since Occupy Wall Street the, the Vietnam protests, the civil rights protests, the climate protests were from young people, it's fascinating. Yeah.
Scott:That's true. Pay attention to the student movements.
a.m.:Pay attention to student movements. History will prove them right. It's fascinating. Is that good? Is that a wrap? Sure, now that we've lost all of our, Commies. Okay, you know what? Now you've got my book review out of this. Marxists at the Arcade. It's about Marxism, Communism, and video games. You would like it. Marxists at the Arcade. Highly suggest reading it. We've pissed off all of our pro Israel friends by suggesting that the kids are correct. It's a conversation to be had. I'd really love to know, like, I don't know if there's research, but I'd really love to know how many Zionists are actually Evangelical Christians because they are, so Evangelical Christianity believes, This is it. That, that all the Jews have to be Israel. For the Messiah to return, because the first thing the Messiah does when he comes back is kills all the Jews. But they, but only if they are all in Israel. And so there's this paradoxical, same thing. We don't know. I've done evangelicals for decades and they're all in Israel because If Israel is required, if Israel disappears, the Messiah cannot come back because he has to kill them all first. There are moments where I dabble with the idea of just never learning anything again. I don't want any more confusion. This is true. I know. It's just like every time I learn more about a system, I become more and more horrified. Like every moment is just a level of horror. Like, what the, what the wall? I don't know. Every word you were saying, all I was in my head was From the rivers to the seas. Like, over and over. Yeah, yeah, cool. Good, good, good. Thank you Scott.
Scott:I'm gonna go sit and stare
a.m.:Thank you for listening to Absurd Wisdom. This is A. M. Bott, and, you know, conversation, real human conversation never actually ends, but episodes of podcasts need to. So we're going to end here. You can connect with me on Instagram and TikTok at, at Absurd Wisdom. You can find DAE on Instagram at dae. community or online at mydae. org. Absurd Wisdom is produced and distributed by DAE Presents, the production arm of DAE, and we'll be back with more Conversation Beyond Understanding next Thursday.
