Should you join a book club?

Whether or not you'll enjoy a book club depends a lot on your reading style, habits, and preferences. But if you're interested in joining a book club, there is truly one out there for everyone - different types, communities, themes, modalities, and more.

Join us as we talk about our own experiences with book clubs (as both participants and moderators), the history of book clubs (which includes a lot more social activism than we expected!), celebrity book clubs, and how to find a book club that's right for you.
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Books we're reading in this episode:
A Date with Death by Julia Chapman (Dales Detective #1)
A Lady's Guide to Fortune Hunting by Sophie Irwin
A Fate Inked in Blood by Danielle L. Jensen (Saga of the Unfated #1)
The House Witch by Delemhach
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Sources:

• Book Riot: https://bookriot.com/a-history-of-book-clubs/
• Medium: https://medium.com/the-mission/the-best-book-clubs-throughout-history-d45537334de0
• Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/03/27/womens-book-clubs-history-oprah-reese/
• Huffington Post: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ladies-who-book-club-have-always-been-the-glue-of-resistance_n_595db02de4b02e9bdb0a3454
• NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/18/books/reese-witherspoon-book-club.html 
• https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/book-clubs-and-book-commerce/3C50183E95136DAD1FC7FB51FD6E6A1E 
• https://testprepinsight.com/resources/us-book-reading-statistics/
• https://thgmwriters.com/blog/global-book-reading-statistics-2022-2023-complete-survey-data/
• https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/09/why-do-so-few-men-read-books-by-women
  
  

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Intro and outro music: "The Chase," by Aves.

Do you have thoughts, questions, or ideas for future episodes? Email us at allbooksaloudpod@gmail.com. And if you want to learn more about the podcast, visit our website at allbooksaloudpod.com.

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And if you'd like to see more bookish content from Martha & Elizabeth, follow us on Instagram and TikTok @allbooksaloudpod.

Read on!

Transcript

[All Books Aloud intro and theme music]

Martha: Hey, Liz! 

Elizabeth: Hi, Martha. 

Martha: How are you? 

Elizabeth: I'm doing 

great, looking at your beautiful face across the table.

Martha: Yeah, we're together again, this time in Alaska. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, 

it's always fun to be able to do An episode face to face. 

Martha: It is.

Elizabeth: It makes it more fun somehow. 

Martha: Yeah. So what are you reading right now?

Elizabeth: I have a few books going, as always. My print book is called A Date with Death by Julia Chapman, [00:01:00] which when I say the title it always makes it sound much darker than it actually is.

It's a cozy mystery series. The first in, the series called the Dales Detective Series. And so the Dales refers to the Yorkshire Dales, which is a region in England that is up north. And I was actually in the Yorkshire Dales earlier this year, which is when I first came across this series. And Julie Chapman is from that area and so writes with a lot of local flavor that is really fun.

But it basically centers on this small town in the Dales that could be a small town anywhere, basically. You know, it has a colorful local cast of characters that all are in each other's business because the town is super small. And, the main woman character just started a dating agency for the local area that everyone is like, Why would you do that?

We already know each other. But she is in financial difficulty and so thought this might be something [00:02:00] to help get her out of that. And then the local bad boy who had left town, , ten years earlier or something comes back into town and that's the beginning of the story. he is a detective who, for various reasons that you don't find out until later in the book, Left London on the run a little bit and has come back home to hide out.

So he starts a detective agency downstairs from her dating agency and both of the initials are DDA, Dale's Dating Agency and Dale's Detective Agency. And so you can see how it's silly, that leads to all sorts of miscommunications and misunderstandings and people come in for the detective agency and then see the date, you know, it's just cute.

But it is really cute. And there are several deaths, which, make it the cozy mystery part. But I really liked it. I don't know if I'm going to continue reading the series because you know how I am with series. I feel like I know the characters and I get the story now and whenever I read the second in a series I'm always like, yeah, I feel like I already read this book.

It was the first one. 

Martha: That's so [00:03:00] funny. 

Elizabeth: So I don't know. We'll see though because there are several of them in the series and I am really liking it. My audio book right now I'm listening to A Lady's Guide to Fortune Hunting by Sophie Irwin. 

It's from 2022. I can't remember how I first heard of it, but I am absolutely loving it. We've talked a lot about audiobook narrators and how they're such a specific, , personal taste. And this audiobook narrator is British, of course, because as I've confessed on the podcast before, I can only enjoy British narrators of audiobooks for some reason.

But her narrating of the book is just perfect. And it's a really cute, you could call it like a Regency romance, I think, the main character is really smart, clever. , young woman who basically comes to London with the express purpose to find a rich husband because she has four sisters.

Her parents both die of scarlet fever, typhoid, or something like that. And she is the oldest and is basically left to take care of them. And she's like, well, [00:04:00] We need a fortune then, I need to find a rich man. And of course it plays with that dichotomy that women, this weird position that women were in at that time, where everyone knew that the only way that they could be financially stable as to marry a rich husband, but they were never supposed to be seen as fortune hunting.

It was supposed to just magically happen. 

Martha: If you were worthy. 

Elizabeth: Right. 

Martha: Of the match. 

Elizabeth: You were 

supposed to want to fall in love. And. if you were lucky, that person would have enough money to support you, but you could never be seen to be calculating. So it really plays with that a lot. And the love interest, which I won't say too much about it because there is definitely a twist at the end of the first act where the , love interest that you think is going to be changes a little bit.

 The author plays with how men are allowed to be calculating and discerning when it comes to who their wives are going to be. But when women do the same thing, it's looked down upon. And she's not technically part of the, upper class [00:05:00] of the gentry because her father, , was a gentleman, , but her mother was an actress, and so when they got married, it was a scandal, blah, blah, blah.

So she's trying to infiltrate the upper classes of London to find a husband. I'm really enjoying it. It's very smart. It's very funny. The narrator is great. And, . I'm really liking that one. 

Martha: It sounds like totally different storyline, but similar themes as the lesser known Jane Austen novel, which the name is totally escaping me.

We watched the adaptation last time you were here.

Elizabeth: So the movie is called Love and Friendship, but the book is actually called Lady Susan. The main character's name is Susan. 

Martha: Yes. 

Elizabeth: But yeah, it does. . Because she in that movie is incredibly smart and is basically using the rules of society to her advantage.

But it's talked about by people as being this snake. 

Martha: Yeah,

Elizabeth: basically. 

Martha: And realizes that. Now that she's widowed, she has to find another rich husband or her and her [00:06:00] daughter are going to be destitute. And then she's trying to also find a match for her daughter. And 

yeah, 

Elizabeth: Yeah. So it is this very interesting dichotomy that women were in.

 In a lot of ways, women are still . In a similar dichotomy, although thankfully we have more options for how we can support ourselves. But there's this double standard where you're supposed to be sexy, but if you're too sexy, then you're a slut. you're supposed to want a man to take care of you, but if you're too calculating about it, then you're a fortune hunter, , 

like 

Martha: America 

Ferrera's monologue in the Barbie movie.

Elizabeth: Yeah, 

exactly. Tale as old as time. So yeah, 

that's really good.

It is really good. I highly recommend it to you. I know I've already been raving to you about it. The third book that I'm reading is Alex and I have started reading Pride and Prejudice aloud. 

Yeah, exciting.

We finished the Lord of the Rings series.

And then it was my turn to pick a book. And we decided to stay on the theme of classics. So obviously the first place I went was 

Pride and Prejudice. 

Yeah. I can't wait [00:07:00] to hear what Al thinks of it since he's never read it before.

I know. I don't know if I'm 

supposed to say that, but he did confess to me that he'd never read it.

 We're rectifying that wrong now. Yeah. So, yeah. He says that he's enjoying it so far, but of course he couldn't say anything else. 

Elizabeth: Oh, fun. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah.

What are you reading right now?

Martha: I am reading just a couple. One, , physical book. Called A Fate Inked in Blood by Danielle L. Jensen. This one caught my eye on the shelf at a bookstore in Missoula when we were there in April visiting Becca. And I think it's been on bestseller lists for a little while.

It's a fantasy, , romance. This one is a little different for me because it's based on Nordic mythology. I'm not sure exactly what the origin is. But , it's not like [00:08:00] fey and vampires and paranormal fantasy. It's more based in mythology, which is really interesting.

So it's the first in a series called Saga of the Unfated. I don't know if the second one is out yet or not, but if you are someone who likes to read a finished series, don't pick this one up yet. But so far it's good. It's taken me a little while to get into it just because I'm in a little bit of a, I wouldn't say a reading slump, but I'm somewhat of a mood reader when it comes to physical books.

 Not in the sense of, What genre do I want to read based on how I'm feeling, but sometimes I just don't feel like reading at night. I don't know if it's cause I'm busy or overstimulated or what, but I just haven't wanted to, to take time to read it at night, I'm just like, I want to go to bed.

I don't know. I think I'll like it once I get into it. But I've been super into my [00:09:00] audio books lately, , I've been listening to this cozy fantasy series called The House Witch by Delemhach, which is their pen name. It's been an absolute delight.

 The first three books are called The House Witch 1, 2, and 3. And now I'm on The Princess of Potential, which to me almost feels like a separate thing. But it's The House Witch number four.

 The first book follows a house witch. named Finlay Ashowan, and he is hired at a castle to be the head cook for a king and his family. And you learn all about his brand of magic and what he can do. It's all centered around his home, and he makes the best food in the kingdom. Everyone raves about his food.

It's the best food they've ever tasted. And he has other powers around protecting his home and the people in [00:10:00] it. , and he gets into a lot of trouble. He's the kind of person where things just happen to you, but you're so charming and everyone loves you so much that you get away with it.

 He develops a friendship with the king and a bunch of the nobility, and becomes part of the king's inner circle, and he falls in love with a noble woman. So there's a little bit of a romance element and , how are they going to make this work?

Cause he's a peasant and she's a Viscountess. It's really fun. Basically the first three books are following Finlay's story and his romance with the Viscountess and how it all happens. And there's a war coming. And then the Princess of Potential starts 20 years later and it's not all about him being a cook. And I bring that up because Rebecca and I, my friend who runs the Fireside Book Club here, we were talking about cozy fantasy and how into it we've been recently. She brought up a good point that every cozy fantasy we can think of has [00:11:00] something to do with cooking or baking.

And we're like, where's the cozy fantasy that's not centered around cooking or baking?

Elizabeth: Well, cooking and baking are really cozy. 

Martha: Super cozy, yeah. So I don't know, if anyone has a cozy fantasy book or series without an element of cooking or baking, let me know because I'd be curious to read it.

Elizabeth: This has a cat on the cover.

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Is there a cat that features in the book? 

Martha: The cat is his familiar. 

Elizabeth: Oh, of 

course. 

Martha: And, the cat ends up being a very big part of the story. It's really cute. I think you would like it.

Elizabeth: I think you've told me about this before. 

Martha: I think I did text you when I first started reading it that I was loving it, but I don't think I told you too much about it. 

Elizabeth: Okay. 

I'm a hard sell on fantasy, as you know. 

Martha: I know, but cozy 

fantasy. So 

cozy. 

Elizabeth: I do like books about baking and cooking. That might be a pro for me. 

Martha: And the narrator is British. So, there's that. 

Elizabeth: I'll try it then. 

Martha: Yeah, give it a try. You can always [00:12:00] stop if you don't like it. 

Elizabeth: Well, speaking of book clubs.

Martha: Mm hmm. 

Elizabeth: That's what we're talking about today, right? 

Martha: Yeah, our topic today is, , book clubs, how they got started, what we like about them, what we don't, book clubs in pop culture, and whatever else we think to talk about.

Elizabeth: Yeah, there's a lot to this one. We have, I wouldn't say it's a difference of opinion, but we definitely have had different experiences with book clubs.

So let's start there.

Martha: Yeah, we've talked a little bit about the book clubs that I'm in already in previous episodes, but currently I'm in a exploratory book club. through my local bookstore, where we pick a different genre every month to read from. And it's a democracy. Generally, we think of a few genres and we vote

and then once we pick a genre, we have a month to think about books that fit under the genre and then we pick a book for future months. So each [00:13:00] month we're always picking a new genre and a new book for the previous genre we voted on, I really like it because it pushes me out of my comfort zone to read different things that I never would otherwise.

 In general, it's the same group of people, community members, we all get along really well and enjoy each other's insights on the books.

So that one's really fun. Last time you were here, you came with me. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I got to 

visit both of your book clubs. 

So what's the other one? 

Martha: The second book club is called Be a Part of the Conversation. That was started when the local school board decided to look over a list of books to be challenged and , potentially removed from school libraries. Well, some of them weren't in the libraries to begin with, but

Elizabeth: The whole other topic. 

Martha: Yeah, so really it's like, regardless of what you feel about challenging or banning books, it was an opportunity for people in the community to read these [00:14:00] books to form their own opinions about them. And so that's what we do.

We pick a book that's being challenged and we read it and we talk about the merits of the book and why we think it might be being challenged, and there's a ACLU employee who comes and updates us on the. Lawsuits and court cases and that sort of thing.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I love that because it's also a way to be an engaged and responsible citizen of your community and also a book club and you get to read books. Yeah, I did. I got to visit both of them. I mean, I love book clubs as a concept, obviously. Being a librarian, I'm not going to say that I don't like book clubs.

But, I do feel like you, with both of those book clubs, you have gotten really lucky . Because my experience with book clubs, is mainly the type where just anyone can come, right? A public book club at a library, but it's the same [00:15:00] concept as a book club that is open to the public that a bookstore is running the banned book club is the same thing, right?

Does the library run it or who's in charge of running it?

Martha: Just a 

local concerned citizen who got it going, yeah. 

Elizabeth: Right, but it's open to the public. So anytime you have something open to the public. You're going to have a lot of different types of people come, and often that can be the antithesis of what you need for a book club.

 I think that for a book club to work, you need a group of people that are on the same page in a lot of ways, so,, your book club with Fireside is amazing because you both have a diverse set of people that come, but also a set of people that are on the same page, not about what kind of books they like or what genres they enjoy, really even, but on the same page about The way that the books are discussed, the way that you respect other people's opinions, the way that you talk about the books, the way [00:16:00] that you choose the books.

And just so often, my experience has been that when you get a very eclectic group of people together, they're not on the same page about that sort of thing. 

Martha: I think you're right. And I think we are lucky and it is kind of the same core group of people in both book clubs. And we have a lot of people that come in and out every month.

 We've had people that will show up to be a part of the conversation once because they were interested in a specific book, but then they didn't come back. Or, they saw what they needed to see and they didn't come back or whatever. So there's a lot of people coming and going, but the same core group of people generally all the time.

Elizabeth: Okay, so it's really that core group of people that keeps it together, because there are people that come and maybe it's not their vibe, or they're not on the same page, and so they don't come back, but that core group. 

Martha: Yeah, or they just come for a specific book, like when we read our adventure fiction pick for Last month, we got a couple more people who are interested in the book [00:17:00] specifically, and then we'll see if they show up next month for a young reader book that we picked.

Elizabeth: Right? Yeah, I love the idea of encouraging people to read outside of their genres that they usually read in, because often they , when you do that, you'll find something that you enjoy that you never would have given a chance to otherwise.

So what it's coming down to for me is that I have a professional opinion about book clubs, but then my personal opinion about them is just that I never have really enjoyed them because I'm just kind of a brat. If I don't want to read a book, I don't want someone telling me that I have to read it.

Martha: Right. Right. Which makes sense. I think Fireside as a bookstore has been very purposeful in how they've cultivated their, brand, , about, like you were saying, being.

respectful of other people's opinions and all people are welcome here and that's the vibe and then the core group of people showed up and Recognize that and are on the same page and they stick around and then other [00:18:00] people come and go But yeah, there is still that element of this is the book.

So you're either gonna read it. Yeah Or you're gonna come, and maybe you didn't read it, but you're still gonna talk about that book. 

Elizabeth: Well, , that's the other thing I was gonna say, because when I visited the book club, I of course hadn't read the book that you guys were talking about. , but a couple of other people came, and they were like, I just couldn't finish this book.

But they still were part of the conversation in a way that was constructive, because that's the other problem I've had with book clubs in the past, is that people, all they want to do is talk about whether they loved the book or more. Especially, they only want to talk about it if they hated the book.

They just want to talk about how much they hated the book. And that just scuppers all the conversation. It just takes all the wind out of it. Which is why Nancy always said that, That's the least interesting thing, and she wouldn't let us talk about whether we loved or hated the book until the very end of the conversation.

We had to find something else of substance to talk about in the book club class, quote unquote, that we were in. , but that's been a bad experience that I've had, too, is , someone will come and they hated the book, and then that's all they want to talk [00:19:00] about. Or, , people feel intimidated who liked the book, and so then they won't share that they liked it, or why they liked it, because it just Torpedoes the conversation, but you all don't do that either you do talk about whether you like the book or not But I just felt like there was a good Ability to have a conversation even if you hadn't read the book or even if you didn't like the book.

Martha: And if we have dissenting opinions, we typically just laugh at each other about it. 

Yeah. 

Which is good. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: I've also tried to lead book clubs before as a librarian and that also I haven't been super succe I mean this might actually just be a me problem. It's totally possible.

But I haven't been very successful doing that, especially in my current job where I just was seen as way too much of an authority figure with the students. I tried to get a student book club together and I got some people interested in it and they came, you know, but they were looking to me to be in charge of the conversation.

And I was like, no, no, [00:20:00] that's not why I'm here. I have read the book, but I don't want to dominate the conversation. , I'm not in charge. I just want us to talk about it. But for whatever reason, the mix of people that have students that came, they just weren't able to think of me as just another person in the club.

So that totally failed. And I was like, okay, I guess if students are going to start a book club, they have to do it without my intervention. Yeah. , but yeah, the book clubs also that I was in charge of running when I was working in grad school at the Seattle Public Library, they're just painfully awkward because it would just be a group of people that came together that shouldn't have, , just never would have come together under any other circumstance.

Maybe there is something to it as well, being in a small community versus being in a huge city like Seattle, , maybe the chances of people who Have the same ethos coming together in a small town where you all live and think of it as your community is higher 

Martha: or you're just 

on your best behavior because you know that you'll see this person again

Elizabeth: because 

everyone knows everyone.

Yeah,

Martha: it's not anonymous. 

Elizabeth: [00:21:00] Oh my God. I actually think that's probably a really great point. 

Yeah, 

yeah. But yeah, so I haven't had a ton of success with book clubs. We did do our sister book club for a little while, but that also petered out ultimately because we all just wanted to read different books and we read at different paces.

That's another thing. Sometimes I don't read as fast or sometimes I read faster. So , yeah, it is a little bit fraught with things that can go wrong, but it also is amazing when everything goes right. I loved going to your book clubs and I wish that I could. Be a part of them. I was like, Oh, if I could have a book club like this, then maybe I would like them, you know?

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: So it's worth seeking out, I think, but it just is a little hit or miss maybe depending on 

what you find.

Martha: I mean, there's definitely something to book clubs because they've been around for a long time. The origin of book clubs, some trace all the way back to 400 BC with the Socratic circles, . I found a article on [00:22:00] medium. com that talked about the Socrates school and the Socratic circles. And basically a bunch of philosophers congregated around 400 BC. , 

Elizabeth: it seems like , it was Socrates and his pupils, right?

It was the Socratic. seminars, which is where we get the Socratic method from, where you basically ask questions until the person cries or until they come up with the answer, my experience of it. So that's interesting though. They're thinking of that as a book club. I guess it was in a way, they were all reading the same thing and then talking about it.

Martha: Yeah. And I'm sure other people have different ideas of where book clubs really got their start, but that's probably the oldest example of something similar to what we think of as a book club nowadays. There have been other famous people throughout history who have had their own book clubs, like J.

R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Virginia Woolf, as well as Benjamin Franklin, who preceded [00:23:00] people like Oprah with his famous book club called 

junto, which was established in 1727.

How would you describe that one, Liz? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, so I read a Wikipedia article about it that talked about it as a self improvement club. It's interesting because the history, I mean, putting that together with the Socratic seminars, the history of book clubs definitely seems to be tied up in that moral authority, that reading, has historically been thought to give you right that we talked about a lot on the podcast the way that the activity of reading has so much baggage around, personal improvement.

But it makes sense that that's what it was connected to, , and therefore that it would be mainly men that were doing it because they were the ones that were involved in public and civic life and they were the only ones who were being educated. 

Martha: It 

also started to be seen as a bit of a stand in for college education.

 Men and women formed groups where , they [00:24:00] acted as a placeholder for a college education, or instead of a college education it was seen as an alternative in a way 

Elizabeth: yeah, 

and I should also clarify with the statement that I just made. Of course, white men who owned land were the ones that were allowed to participate in Benjamin Franklin's club, right?

Because enslaved people weren't even allowed to read. And all women also would not have been involved in that. 

Martha: But eventually, , in this HuffPost article I found, it mentioned that enslaved people were barred from learning to read, but freedmen and women in the northern states formed literary discussion groups for similar ends.

So, book clubs have also served as safe spaces for marginalized people to gather and talk about similar struggles, strifes, ideas, things that they're reading and learning, a way to share., ideas and news and that sort of thing. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, with a group of people who was generally barred from [00:25:00] doing so in any type of public or official way. Yeah, that's really interesting. And, is also something that we already have talked about a little bit, but would have been a supplement to a lack of formal education.

So the equivalent of getting a college degree for people who weren't able to or weren't allowed to do that. One of the articles that I found, or a book that I found, was called She Hath Been Reading, Women and Shakespeare Clubs in America. So apparently there were hundreds of Shakespeare clubs in the U.

S. in the late 19th century, all across the country, hundreds of clubs formed across the United States devoted to reading Shakespeare, , that were women only. The author says that all the way from California to Maine, these clubs existed. And,, they were composed mainly of women.

They offered the opportunity for members not only to read and study Shakespeare, but also to participate in public and civic activities outside the home, the opportunities for women to do that would have been rare at that time. So I thought that was really interesting [00:26:00] in talking about a supplement to lack of formal education.

It was during a time when reading Shakespeare and being familiar with Shakespeare was very much seen as the purview of the formally and highly educated, which I mean, it still is to a certain extent, but definitely much more so in the late 19th and early 20th century. That was a sign of your intelligence to be familiar with Shakespeare.

I haven't read the whole book, but , I read a little bit of it and I also read the sort of intro, that these discussions of Shakespeare often led the women that were active in them to improve their lot in life. , advocate for making their community a better place, , take action on larger social issues like women's suffrage and, , civil rights and things like that.

So they also were similar to your banned and challenge book club, a catalyst for social engagement and, being engaged citizen. , there's that through line from the late 19th century to now. 

Martha: Yeah. Which I think is awesome.

Elizabeth: It is. 

Martha: And I also feel like we need to mention [00:27:00] that a lot of these.

groups formed around Bible studies as well, which would have been a perfect excuse for women to get together and talk about the Bible, whether or not that's all they talked about, that's their business, but that was one of the ways that some of these groups were formed was based around reading the Bible and other religious texts, 

Elizabeth: one of these articles though that you found also talks about how women getting together to talk about books was a little bit, Is rebellious the right word?

Martha: Yeah, kind of controversial. 

Elizabeth: Controversial.

Martha: Like you talked about, it gives women a chance to talk about , women's suffrage and social justice and other politics going on that they wouldn't have an opportunity to congregate and talk about otherwise.

Elizabeth: Mm-Hmm. . 

 Well, so you said that Benjamin Franklin's book club was a precursor to, , the Oprah book club. Is it just because he was famous? 

Martha: Yeah, because I was thinking that [00:28:00] Benjamin Franklin would have been someone who was very influential in a similar way as Oprah was, especially in the 90s.

Nowadays Oprah's certainly famous and influential, but in her heyday, she was it. I mean, the Oprah book club was like the first celebrity book club that I can think of where everyone wanted to read Oprah's picks. 

Oh yeah, definitely. And the Oprah book club, spawned all the other famous people book clubs that might at this point be me.

Elizabeth: Eclipsing it a little bit. 

Martha: Mm-Hmm. .

Elizabeth: But definitely Oprah was the og. 

Martha: Yeah. Now we have Reese Witherspoon's book Club. Jenna Bush has a book club. 

Mm-Hmm. . 

There's the book of the Month Club. That's 

Elizabeth: which predates 

all of them apparently. 

Martha: Oh, yeah. 

Yeah. Which I didn't realize until we were researching for this, but 

Elizabeth: I feel like until I had my realignment with my reading when I was in library school, I always poo pooed those celebrity book clubs because I felt like it was just selling more [00:29:00] books that would have sold anyway. But as we were researching this, I realized that actually a lot of them, especially Reese's Book Club, I read this really interesting, , New York Times profile of her that was published recently.

And, That book club, , and she specifically by, it seems by all accounts based on this article, really makes an attempt to choose books that are not necessarily otherwise just fated to be bestsellers. All the books are by and about women. , And she says in this interview, but also has said before that the reason that she started her company, which then spawned the book club in the first place is because when she was in her mid thirties, she basically realized that there weren't any roles for her anymore because she wasn't the young, beautiful woman, but she wasn't old enough to play like the grandma basically.

Yeah. And so she was like, well, I'm Reese Witherspoon, so I'm just going to start making movies, right? Which is great, , that she was able to do that , and used , her power to do that. But so then [00:30:00] that spawned this book club. So , they really do look for books by and about women that are outside of what, generally would be a bestseller.

It's just that they all become bestsellers because of the cachet that comes with the book club. Yeah. 

Martha: Well, and I think that is a great thing to note because we've mentioned this in other episodes that it seems like authors are kind of thrown to the wolves. , even if you get an agent, and you get published, you're not necessarily getting the support of the publisher's marketing team behind you.

A lot of these authors are having to market their own books, and it seems like These book clubs like Reese's, I mean, could you imagine if you were lucky enough to be the pick? 

Elizabeth: No, it's like dream come true. But yeah, there are so few of these opportunities now. that's why it feels like it would be a dream come true.

Because it's one of the few things , other than already being famous, that could turn your book into a bestseller, because yeah, anyone who has read anything, , recently about the book publishing industry or read [00:31:00] anything about , the, , antitrust trial where these big wigs at the book publishing industry had to talk about advances and what makes a book a bestseller.

And they basically were like, yeah, we don't know. It's just magic. It just happens somehow. It's like, Oh God, as a person who, Has an aspiration to publish books. It's like, okay. But yeah, so it is, it's cool. I have a lot more respect for them than I used to, certainly, now that I know a little bit more about the way that the books are chosen and, , the interesting thing about the Reese's Book Club specifically is that the authors are supported and promoted.

Even after the specific book that was chosen, there was one author, I can't remember who it was in the profile that was talking about how it's like joining a club, it's joining a community and that they're supported throughout their lives as authors. , their subsequent books [00:32:00] are promoted on the Reese's book club, , social media and website.

 Even if it's not the pick, the authors are lifted up by this structure, which I think is really cool. 

Martha: So they're joining a 

community, not only a community of the readers reading the books, but getting the full force of Reese's 

Elizabeth: star power, basically. 

Martha: Yeah, which is awesome.

Elizabeth: Yeah, 

I thought it was cool. And, it's not only commercial fiction that they choose, , there have been , some more literary, some more, thriller. , so they try to mix it up a little bit. They definitely in recent years have been making more of an effort to choose authors that are representative of a diversity of identities, There have been some memoirs.

So it's not just one thing, which I think tends to be the criticism is that it's only one type of book, but it doesn't seem that way. I also really loved in that article, , she had a little quip about audio books that I was just like, Oh, yep, I'm sold. She doesn't need to say anything else because she said, I really want people to stop saying, I didn't actually read it.

I just listened. [00:33:00] Witherspoon said, stop that. If you listened, you read it. There's no right way to absorb a book. 

Yeah. Yeah, you're absorbing the story, regardless of if you're listening to it or reading it on the page. Thank 

you, Reese. Yeah. the Jenna's Read with Jenna, I think is what it's called, Jenna Bush's book club, , I don't know as much about.

It seemed to me From the outside, again, , it was only big names. Like, Colleen Hoover famously has had, , several read with Jenna Picks, and I'm like, Colleen Hoover does not need your help. No. I also listened to a podcast interview with Judy Blume because, , Jenna Bush chose her most recent adult novel.

And of course, I love Judy Blume, but , again, , this person doesn't need help with publicity. But, , when I looked at the website, it does seem like they are at least trying., some months to have more of a diverse mix of authors. And it's definitely not all bestsellers necessarily.

, it was really interesting to look into the book of the month club because apparently it's been around since [00:34:00] 1926. 

Martha: Wow. 

Elizabeth: Which I didn't know. 

Martha: No, I didn't know 

that. 

 It seems like they're marketing it as a new idea They don't mention we've been around since 1926 because I think that's really not the vibe that they're going for 

Elizabeth: No and I think that part of the reason why maybe is this is part of why this was so surprising to me in a weird way is because I've always thought of Book of the Month Club as being for old people So that's probably why they're not talking about the fact that they've been around since 1926 because they're trying to maybe shed that 

Martha: and find a younger 

crowd.

Elizabeth: , I found a little bit of an interesting history on the Book of the Month, actually, in its early days in the 1940s, there was a fear or an idea around that it was going to Supplant libraries, , that it was an alternative to libraries and that it was trying to kill libraries, like the book publishers trying to kill libraries.

Because the idea is that, , they send you a book every month to read. And so then you aren't necessarily going to the library to get a book to read because of being, 

Martha: you're like, I 

got my one book for the month and that's all I need. 

Elizabeth: Right. 

So a, [00:35:00] they've never heard of someone reading more than one book a month, apparently.

Martha: Oh. 

Elizabeth: But yeah, there was this cartoonist. In the 1940s that had. A really famous the way that Kathy Well its. The way that people have a certain age now would recognize the comic cathy. I don't know. This is hard to make relevant because comics don't really exist anymore. There was a comic character and this This woman did a comic where

One of the famous characters said to her hometown librarian in this comic, I'm afraid this is goodbye, Miss McDonald. I'm joining the Book of the Month Club. So the idea is that, people aren't going to be going to libraries anymore because they get the recommendations from the Book of the Month Club, which I just, yeah, I thought it was really funny because I love when I find things like that that are really old because it's the type of moral panic that tends to still happen when I was doing my research into the reading of college students and this [00:36:00] idea that the kids don't read because of their phones and that I found an article from The 1980s that said the kids don't read because of TV, it's just It's just These panics that people have over this type of thing, which is not to say that libraries aren't in danger.

 The New York public library was just almost basically put out of business, , by , the city government until people made a stink and they restored their funding. But , we're going to have to close on the weekends. What's a public library in a city like New York if it's closed on the weekends?

So it's not like those things aren't in peril, but they're rarely in peril from the people who need them. Right. suddenly not needing them anymore. They're in peril from our institutional and structures, governmental structures. . So the moral panic has the wrong target as always, which I think is the point.

But yeah, I just thought that was really interesting. 

, that was a little bit of an aside, but I thought that was really funny. And then yeah, Oprah's book club was the other one. 

Martha: Yeah. An article says that Oprah's book club established in 1996 started one of the largest historical shifts in book club culture using her national platform Oprah [00:37:00] led her Largely white and female audience in discussions of text She personally selected and it goes on to discuss some of the earlier works that she's picked for the book club so going back to the The fact that most of these book club members were women.

I just think that's such an interesting, statistic. And it's still true to this day that most book club members are women.

Elizabeth: What's that about? We've talked before about how. well, we talked on the romance episode about how it's generally accepted in the book publishing industry based on various statistics, some of which are proprietary that they won't show us, but some of which are not, that women read more than men, 

 And they buy more books than men. So there's one stat that we can put in the show notes that says there are more women in book clubs than men, but that, just overall, there are more women who are, likely to have read [00:38:00] at least one book in a year, 

, in the U. S. It's like 55 percent versus 45%, so not a huge difference. Globally, it's more like 56 percent versus 42%. But there is that , slight, Hand on the scale in terms of women being more likely to read, but not so much more likely that they should make up 70 to 80 percent of book club members.

So what do you think that's about? 

Martha: Well, Huffington Post had a quote in one of the articles and all of these articles will be in the show notes, of course, but besides, keeping a book club running is work, the kind of humble, administrative task that women have always been expected to shoulder.

So I think that has something to do with it, just the work of organizing and selecting the books and doing the social for lack of a better word, work, that is keeping a book club running. 

Elizabeth: So running a book club, certainly I could see that. But do the members have to do that or can you just show up? 

Martha: Well, yeah, 

you can certainly just show up.

I also feel like this could be totally a gendered stereotype and I [00:39:00] could be off base, but I think women tend to take themselves less seriously in the things that they read. So they have more of an open mind to other people's selections. I think that could potentially have something to do with it and are generally, more open to sharing their thoughts and feelings about something like a book that they're reading then.

Then most men might be. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think there's something to that. Women, not in any innate way, but are socialized to be more flexible, to be more open to other people's opinions. . Because you have to be , you don't ever want to put yourself in a position where you're 

Martha: endangering yourself 

Elizabeth: by 

arguing with someone or something like that.

So I could see that for sure. I also wonder a little bit if there's been, Because of how enthusiastically women took up this idea of being in book clubs, , as we were just talking about the history of it, if there's been a little bit of a flip in the social stereotype of what a book club [00:40:00] is, the same way that we've seen with so many things, because when they were starting, and you're talking about Socrates, and you're talking about Benjamin Franklin, they were very much the purview of, men White men who were talking about politics and bettering themselves and, , furthering their education.

 And now it seems like they're more in the realm of women sitting around chatting, gossiping sort of feel. 

Yeah. 

Maybe in terms, not of what they actually are, but in terms of the social stereotype of what they are. It reminds me a lot of the way that early librarians were actually all men.

And that some of the early figures in librarianship like Melville Dewey were very intentionally and misogynistically trying to, differentiate a librarian who was a trained, usually white man, versus all of the women that worked in the library and the administrative roles?

And now the concept of a librarian [00:41:00] is very much stereotypically a mousy young woman, so there's just something, I wonder if there's something to the way that Things in our society are feminized quote unquote by women participating in them And then they turn into something in that way that men Think that they're they shouldn't be involved in that they're not allowed to be involved in because it will make them not masculine 

Yeah, 

I mean all of this is like total bullshit.

Obviously, it's a gender binary, but it's what our society does

it's also interesting, because you said that we're socialized to be more flexible.

So that also gets to this statistic that I've read before, but that came up in my mind again for this episode, which is the study that found that women are much more open to reading books that are written by men than men are open to reading books that are written by women. I went and found the actual study so that I could talk about it, , specifically. It was a Nielsen book research study that found that of the 10 bestselling male authors at the time that the study was done, their readership [00:42:00] was roughly half and half men and women readers.

Whereas the 10 bestselling women authors of the time, , their readership was 80 percent women and 20 percent men basically. So. That,, is related to what we're talking about, just in the sense that women might have more of an open mind in terms of what they're willing to read. 

Martha: Yeah. I think that has a lot to do with it.

Elizabeth: If you're slurping in the background, it's Elim. Yeah, it's Elim. Martha's senior Yorkie that has been our guest before on the podcast. It is also interesting that you mentioned that Oprah's audience was mainly white women. I do wonder a little bit. I would love to know if black women feel similarly about book clubs to the way that we're talking about because of course we're both white so that's our experience. 

Martha: I know speaking from my own experience and perspective that our book clubs here in Palmer, Alaska, which is a mostly white community.

 It's pretty much 100 percent white [00:43:00] people in it. And we have talked about making a conscious effort of reading different authors from different backgrounds. 

Elizabeth: Whereas the banned book club, probably a lot of the books that you're reading are from an LGBTQIA or from a person of color, right?

Martha: Yes, yes. 

Elizabeth: because those are most of the books that are being challenged right now. 

Martha: Which is part of what makes us, upset 

Elizabeth: Right. And the book that you were reading when I came to visit your group the other month when I was here, had some really serious issues that it was dealing with.

And I found that book club so powerful because people, , were really affected by this book in a way that was like, this is what books are supposed to do, right? Not affected in the sense that it traumatized them, but it was cathartic almost for them to read it and to talk about it with the group.

 People were disclosing their own stories of sexual assault and being victimized in similar ways. And we're talking about how they wish that they had had this book when they were younger, or they wish that, , these issues were able to be spoken about [00:44:00] as openly when it happened to them, which I just think is so powerful.

And, , that's the reason that you read books and that's the reason that you read books by people who have a different experience in life than you, who have a different identity from you. , it's really powerful to do that. 

Martha: Yeah, 

Elizabeth: Your book club is great and it feels very supportive to you and to me And I think it's a great group of people, but being in Palmer, Alaska, , if you walked into that book club as the only black person, it probably would feel weird. Yeah. At least at first.

At first. Yeah. So yeah. 

Martha: Similarly, there's LGBTQIA plus groups who have carved out their own spaces for book clubs, often preferring to meet outside of library spaces. Although a lot of libraries are becoming increasingly inclusive, but because a lot of public libraries are, dictated by their local government.

Elizabeth: Well, not just that. As a librarian, this is something that I think our profession is. In the last 10 years, [00:45:00] especially starting to come to terms with, but definitely need.

Needs to come to terms with more, but libraries have not historically been a safe space for people of marginalized communities. , you know, public libraries are a governmental structure, like you were just saying. They're run by the local governments, they're also, a structure of the dominant society of the time. So,, black people weren't allowed in libraries. they weren't a safe space for black people, , before civil rights, when, , People of color also weren't welcome in lots of public spaces, in restaurants, , in movie theaters, wherever, that went for libraries as well.

And so even though I love libraries and most people that I know feel warm and fuzzy about libraries, there are a lot of people who don't feel that way, who've had different experiences than I have, and then the people who, look like me and who I know mostly have had. , and I think that that's important to remember, that not everyone has always felt safe in a library, or like it's for them.

//And so, yeah, that totally makes sense , that some of those, um, Yeah. Uh, yeah, so I guess it, looks like, we're in the same boat, right? Not [00:46:00] just, as we were talking about, so, it's not just, uh, the, you know, the disability issues, but I wanted to, just to, you know, talk about what's going on and, as we're talking about this issue, it's also about, what can we do to address it?

And, it's a really, uh, it's a really important question to ask because, and, and, uh, we want to, uh, we want to give people, a chance to think through the issue that, um, what we're trying to do. You know, sort of// straight, white, cis women who work in libraries, have made policies in recent years that are discriminatory against people that make it so that trans people don't feel safe in libraries, for instance.

So, yeah, it's definitely something that. Even though I think some people might not associate those types of problems with libraries, that is because libraries have been a little bit I was going to say whitewashed in the public imagination, which might be a little bit too on the nose, but you know, some of that history has been a little [00:47:00] bit glossed over because they are a public good.

I do strongly believe that, but that doesn't mean that they're perfect. No, 

Martha: no. 

So if after listening to this, you are still excited about the idea of joining a book club, I don't know if we've helped to add to your excitement or tamped it down, but regardless, if you are interested in finding a book club, you can of course check with your local library or local bookstores.

I know there's a ton of Facebook groups where you can inquire to find some in your area or virtually what are some other ideas, Liz? 

Elizabeth: Well, I googled online book clubs and just found a ton of things. I also have seen book clubs come and go on Twitter. , there are podcasts that people use to facilitate book clubs, with their free podcast or on a , Subscription basis 

like the 

Martha: Patreon.

Mm-Hmm. . 

Elizabeth: Yeah. I found a page that we'll put in the show notes that is, , on readsy.com that has basically [00:48:00] a list of online book clubs or, , different types of book clubs. Yeah., the one that I loved the most that I had never heard of is called the silent book club, which is an in person thing.

It's not virtual, but it has a directory of where all of these clubs exist throughout the country. So I think this is probably us only. , but the silent book clubs are basically just what it sounds like. you meet up in a group of people, but you all read silently to yourselves together in a bar or a coffee shop or somewhere.

 You don't have to be reading the same book. No, you're not reading the same book. That's the idea. The reason obviously that this appealed to me is because it takes out some of the things that I don't like about, having done book clubs in the past. , but , you still get the community aspect because people still chat.

 You have a little bit of chatting in the beginning. What are you reading? And then you settle down to read just with other people. Cause this is another thing is that if you are a big reader and you've ever tried to read. alone in a place like a bar, a coffee shop, not [00:49:00] as much. That's pretty acceptable, but in a place like a bar or a place that's more assumed social, it's weird, right?

It can feel awkward. People are like, what are you doing? There was this TikTok video that went around recently of a guy who was , filming a woman who was reading alone in a bar and was being basically like, she's , Looking for attention and it's like really dude. She's reading. She's doing the 

opposite.

Yeah. So 

yeah, that can be a little loaded to try to read alone in spaces like that So being in a group where everyone's doing it, can make it feel a little bit nicer. 

Martha: Yeah, it's kind of fun. 

Elizabeth: I'm going to look up and see if there's one of those. 

Martha: Yeah, you'll have to report back.

, I think there's just a ton of virtual options, which I didn't really do a lot of research on, but I'm assuming they really took off during COVID. I know I was in at least a couple virtual book clubs during the pandemic too. , and of course, you could start your own book club. , if there's a certain type of community that you're looking for, certain group of people, or just a topic that you're [00:50:00] interested in, you can start your own book club, and we came up with a few ideas to get you going.

, you could start by reading the classics, if that's something that you've ever wanted to do. You can read one author, like in the Jane Austen Book Club 

Elizabeth: that's a book, the Jane Austen Book Club. And if you haven't read it, I highly suggest it. It's a really great book. But yeah, I love that idea of reading, the complete works of one author.

Martha: Reading a certain genre or the opposite exploratory genre, like we do at Fireside. Reading banned or challenged books. Or even reading certain topics. So if, , you have a group of friends who loves. Dogs, you can read books about dogs. I don't know that's just an example. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, and then of course you could also related to what we were just talking about you could start a club a book club where you're Intentionally reading books from a diversity of authors.

So focusing on marginalized authors maybe or focusing on , authors who [00:51:00] just, , have different perspectives and life experiences than you have might be really cool. 

, if you are going to start your own book club, I hope that we haven't tamped down anyone's enthusiasm for book clubs.

That certainly wouldn't have been my intention. I do, though, think that it's important that you try to get together a group of people who want to read the same types of books and are on the same page about books. And anytime I think about that, I think about the story that Alex has about the book club that he was in for a short time.

Where a group of people that he knew, that he was friends with and coworkers with, I think, started a book club that they called the Highbrow Book Club. And so they were all on the same page about how they defined highbrow. So they thought. So they thought. Well, the group that started it was on the same page.

And then they invited Alex and this one other man that he worked with, who I think was his boss, to join the book club. And their two picks were Not what the group had in mind when they said highbrow,, they felt like they were way too difficult. No one liked them. They were bad picks for the group.[00:52:00] 

And so the group stopped meeting or so Alex thought. But then he found out later that they'd reconvened just the group that was the original group without the two hoity toities that chose the two hard books. And they called it the middle brow book club because they realized that they weren't maybe picking highbrow books.

So that's obviously a ridiculous anecdote, but I think it is illustrative of the point that you want to choose a group of people that are on the same page with you about what you're reading , are you looking at reading a philosophical treatise or do you want to read Stephen King novels?

You know, like you really need to be on the same page about that. Because you're unlikely to find a group of people that want to read both. 

Martha: Or just be very open about the type of books that you read. If you're inviting someone to your book club, say, we read things like Stephen King. Right. Here are some 

Elizabeth: examples of books that we've read and we would expect your picks to be in this milieu.

Martha: Yeah. Don't try and read Proust. If the book club says they read Coho, , you [00:53:00] know, you have to, you have to try and work with people. So, all this to say that, yeah, running a book club can be a lot to navigate, but I think it could be a lot of fun. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think the payoffs , are worth it if you get a good group. As your book clubs are proof. If only I could airdrop into your book clubs once a month. 

Martha: Whenever you're here, you can certainly join. Well, thanks for talking about book clubs with me today, Liz. This has been a fun one. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it has. Thanks for doing all this research. I found out a lot about book clubs that I didn't know before.

Martha: Of course. Well, if you'd like even more bookish content make sure to follow us on instagram and tiktok at All Books Aloud Pod.

If you want to tell us about your book club, send us an email to allbooksaloudpod@gmail.com and make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a positive rating and review. It helps other people [00:54:00] find us and read on, my friends.

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