All Books Aloud

Is reading a niche hobby?

• Elizabeth Brookbank & Martha Brookbank • Season 2 • Episode 7

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We were planning to talk about our reading habits and rituals in this episode...but then Elizabeth heard an NPR podcast about how no one reads anymore, at the same time as Martha read multiple articles about how more people bought Rebecca Yarros' latest book than any adult book since records began and that thanks to TikTok, Barnes & Noble is opening more stores this year. We had to ask ourselves: how could both of these things be true?

Join as we try to sort fact from moral panic, discuss the gendered media narratives around book releases by women authors and the loss of literary men, debunk an oft-repeated (even by us) statistic about reading, and ponder whether reading has indeed become a niche hobby. We do also, eventually, talk about the struggles we both face with reading and the habits and rituals we've developed to help fit reading into our lives.

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Books we're reading in this episode:   

All Fours by Miranda July 
A Lady’s Guide to Scandal by Sophie Irwin
The Women by Kristin Hannah
I Ran Away to Evil 2 by Mystic Neptune
Onyx Storm by Rebecca Yarros
This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone

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Sources listed in the order they appear in the episode :

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Intro and outro music: "The Chase," by Aves.

Do you have thoughts, questions, or ideas for future episodes? Email us at allbooksaloudpod@gmail.com. And if you want to learn more about the podcast, visit our website at allbooksaloudpod.com.

If you liked this episode, please consider leaving us a review to help us reach more listeners.

And if you'd like to see more bookish content from Martha & Elizabeth, follow us on Instagram and TikTok @allbooksaloudpod.

Read on!

[All Books Aloud theme music and intro]

Martha: Hey, Liz.

Elizabeth: Hi Martha. How are you?

Martha: I'm great. How are you?

Elizabeth: I'm doing pretty good. 

Martha: Good. Well, I want to know what you're reading.

Elizabeth: I bet you do.

Martha: As always.

Elizabeth: want to know what I'm reading. Almost like this is a podcast about reading. So, as usual, I have a print book that I'm reading and an audio book that I'm listening to. So the print book has been on my TBR for a really long time, [00:01:00] but it got catapulted to the top because our other sister, Becca, just finished reading it and was raving about it.

It's called All Fours by Miranda July. And It is basically about a woman having a midlife crisis. That's really the only way to say it. , which, I don't know that I would say I'm having a midlife crisis, but I am only a few years younger than the protagonist in this book, and so I feel like it really spoke to me in the sense that it's about, , a woman in her mid forties who has a crisis of, who she is as a wife, as a mother, , she starts to feel like those social identities are not jiving with who she really is, quote unquote.

So like her work as an artist, how she feels on the inside, the things that she keeps from her husband that she tells her best friend, that kind of thing. And. She decides to go on a road trip for her work, and it turns out very differently than she expected. It sort of launches her into this questioning everything journey, [00:02:00] and it's just it's really good.

 I won't say more about it than that, Because There are some changes of direction that happen that I don't want to, , spoil or give away in terms of , what's really happening with her and what's going on in the story.

, you read the first about third of it thinking that it's one thing and then it sort of morphs into something else. And yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'm about three quarters of the way through. I would highly recommend it, especially to women and especially to women who are, you know, In that age range or approaching that age range, , she's going through perimenopause, it is extremely weird, though, I will caution, I think maybe I've talked about Miranda July on the podcast before, as a writer, she is incredible, and I really like her, but she is edgy. 

She talks about things that are taboo, that you read it and you're like, Oh my God, I very much relate to that, but can't believe that someone actually wrote that

Elizabeth: down on paper. She's really, really interesting and cool writer. 

And I will also take the opportunity of telling anyone who's [00:03:00] listening that if you have never read any Miranda July and want a feeling for her writing, she wrote a short story in the New Yorker called Roy Spivey that you can read.

It's not behind a paywall, but if you just Google Miranda July, Roy Spivey, or even just Miranda July, New Yorker, it'll come up. And it's so good. It's just so good. It's like one of my favorite pieces of writing.

Martha: Now that you say that, I think I remember you mentioning that on an episode before. And I still haven't read it. I need to. What would you, say the genre is

Elizabeth: Literary fiction. It's literary fiction and the doorway is probably character,

Yeah.

Martha: maybe story a little with the twists 

Elizabeth: It's hard to say. I was gonna say language, but also story. Yeah, the story's interesting. The plot is interesting. Not a lot happens, but there is plot. So it's not like the type of literary novel where you get to the end and you're like, nothing has happened. , a lot happens. but a lot of what happens is internal to the character.

Martha: Hmm. [00:04:00] That sounds really good.

What are you listening to? I am

Elizabeth: listening to A Lady's Guide to Scandal by Sophie Irwin. Sophie Irwin is the author of A Lady's Guide to Fortune Hunting, which I read last year and loved. And I think, I can't remember if I ever talked about it on the podcast. It might be one that I didn't talk about, but I absolutely loved it. It's historical romance.

 Regency romance, 

Not dissimilar to the E. V. Dunmore series that we both loved and have talked about nauseum on the podcast. I started reading this hesitantly because I thought that it was a series because it's listed as number two in the series.

But it's a totally different story, totally different characters. It's in the same world, it's in Regency England, but it doesn't even have crossover characters that sometimes you'll have. Like in the e. V. Dunmore series, right? It has all the same characters, but just moves its focus. It's not even like that.

It's just a whole new cast of characters. So I don't really know why they're choosing to call it. [00:05:00] Um, I haven't actually said what it's about, obviously it's about characters falling in love. It also has a really interesting misdirection that I'm not even really going to talk about because it'll totally give it away.

 It starts out with, , the narrator's husband has just died, and we learn very quickly that this was not a marriage of love.

It was a marriage of duty and, , their families combining fortunes, and so this woman was collateral damage, in a sense, emotionally of that, and has been married to a man that she didn't love for 10 years, and he's passed away, and they're reading his will, and, he ends up leaving her stuff in his will that she didn't expect, and it changes everything for her, and she embarks on, , a new life.

so yeah, I'm really liking that one, too.

Martha: Yeah, that

sounds really great. 

It sounds like the opposite of a lot of those, , situations where the wife would be put in a position where she has to remarry and find a new rich husband. So, that sounds really good.

Elizabeth: Yeah, [00:06:00] What about you? What are you reading?

Martha: Oh man, I have a lot of books I am juggling right now. Because I'm behind on my schedule with, some of the book clubs I'm in. And new releases that I wanted to read. What I'm reading. In my physical format, is Onyx Storm by Rebecca Yaros. I'm only halfway through, and I had to stop reading it so that I could read some books for book clubs. Obviously, if you're listening to this, you probably know what Onyx Storm is, so I don't really have to describe what that book is. And then I'm rereading This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal L.

Motar and Max Gladstone for Radio Book Club. We're going to talk about it on Big Cabbage Radio. And actually really enjoying it the second time around even more than the first because now I understand what going on, so I'm picking up on a lot more and tying up loose threads that I missed the first time.

Elizabeth: That is really cool. That's [00:07:00] such a good argument for rereading that I feel like we didn't talk about on the rereading episode. And with this book, I could totally see that.

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Because as we talked about, so much of this book is , Just becoming okay with the fact that you don't know what the world is, you don't know what's going on.

Martha: yes. If you didn't hear what the book is about in previous episodes, it is a sci fi romance epistolary novel where these two characters are writing a Letters back and forth and they're on opposite sides of a time war.

So if you like a sci fi romance Character doorway. . Then, you might want to check it out. And then, I just finished The Women by Kristen Hannah on audio. And, I don't know why I waited so long to read this book. I love Kristen Hannah.. The way she writes is so descriptive, you feel like You're there. It really puts things into context, which I love.

 This book is about women in Vietnam who were [00:08:00] nurses and really how service members were received when they came home from the Vietnam War, which was not great , it really showcases the mental, , health crisis of those service members when they came back due to the reception that they received and the trauma that they endured.

And it's very eyeopening because many of our parents and grandparents went through that. And it really highlights how, especially for the women, they were kind of forgotten. , she writes a few scenes where the main character goes to the VA for help, and they're like, this is for veterans, what are you talking about?

And she's like, I was there. And they're like, there's no women in Vietnam. And she's like, yes, there were, I was there. And if you didn't know there were women, then you were one of the lucky ones, because you never saw a nurse. It was very poignant and , well done, and I loved it, and , Kristen Hannah Hires, [00:09:00] the same narrator for all of her audiobooks, at least the ones that I've listened to, so it's familiar and cozy, and she does a great job 

Elizabeth: That is so,

interesting . I have never even thought of that. , all of the popular representations of Vietnam veterans and, , Vietnam War movies , there's been movies and books about , how rough that reception was on the vets coming back.

You know, think about, , Forrest Gump, even. , there's, , so many popular representations, but it's all men. , I've never even I thought about the fact that there were nurses there that were women that would have been similarly traumatized, 

I'm glad that there's a book about that.

Martha: yeah, and Kristen talks about it in the acknowledgements at the end, how she had this idea for this book in the 90s, but she didn't feel like she was ready as an author to tackle it, or mature enough, I guess, which I thought was really cool, she was very respectful of the topic and gave it everything she had as far as the research went [00:10:00] and I think she did a fantastic job so I would definitely recommend that if you like historical fiction .

, and then I'm listening right now to I Ran Away to Evil 2 by MysticNeptune. I picked this up after we interviewed Laura Horowitz, because I listened to the first one, and then when we interviewed her, she mentioned how the author, MysticNeptune, sings in this. 

And so I was so curious and she does a great job. There's no music in the background. It's just her singing. So it's very raw, and she's fantastic. And , it's a fun, lit RPG romance. Cozy fantasy. , different characters. They're in the first novel, but now they're the main characters in this one.

Elizabeth: That is a lot of books, Martha.

Martha: Yeah, And I still have, one more I need to read this week, so I'm booked and busy!

Elizabeth: You're reading a lot of books, which actually is a good segue, into our topic for today, which is about [00:11:00] our, reading habits and rituals and how those things help us make space for reading in our lives, both. Physically make space in the calendar, in our houses, , and also make space mentally in terms of, our attention spans, the way we prioritize our free time, etc.

And some of these things we've talked about before, , but the impetus of this particular perspective for our episode today was this podcast that I listened to about how no one reads anymore, which is why I thought that you talking about how much you're reading was a good segue because, it was just such an interesting experience to listen to this 

it's an NPR, , podcast called. It's Been a Minute . I couldn't remember which one it was.

Martha: Ira Glass, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah, Ira Gloss does it, but , he wasn't the host. It was Brittany Luce, I think is her name, L U S E, interviewing a couple of guests. And the title of the episode was books versus brain rot.

Why it's so hard to read. And, we've both listened to and read a lot of these pieces about, how [00:12:00] everyone's attention spans are dying and no one's reading anymore. And it always feels so strange because here we are, big readers doing a podcast about reading. And we're like, surely those two things.

Can't both be true. And so that's why I started thinking about this because clearly this is still out there and we need to talk again about how , yes, social media takes our attention, but it's still possible to read. , maybe first we could just talk a little bit about the podcast episode because I know you listen to it as well. What were some of your takeaways from it?

Martha: Well, they made a claim that people retain more when they read on the page versus on screen. I thought that was a very interesting takeaway. They were basically saying that Reading a physical book might be a superior format, which kind of goes against a lot of the things that we've talked about on the podcast.

it seems like they're well researched [00:13:00] and they have data to back that up.

Elizabeth: yeah, I'm glad you pulled out that point because that point and that tension is illustrative of the whole podcast for me. , they said things. Where I was like, I don't feel like that's true or that's different from what we have talked about based on our research. But then I look at their sources and I'm like, yeah, they have data to back this up. 

There's an element to what they're saying that's true, if you go all the way back to our very first episode where we were talking about audiobooks, Being reading and we were looking at the research, there is some neuroscience research where they look at the different parts of the brain that light up when you're doing different things.

Elizabeth: That that one article explained in more layman's terms that I can't remember the name of the guy, he gathered together all the research that was out there about this topic and , went through it in a, systematic review type of way and explained it in a way that I could understand not being a neuroscientist.

And his take was basically , yes, there is some data [00:14:00] that reading physical books on the page is different. But his takeaway is that it's not different enough to warrant all of this conversation. So what they're saying is not wrong. And there's so much like this that came up in this episode.

, it's just that there are two, things that are both true. And the way that this narrative gets spun in popular culture. It's so exaggerated that it feels like they can't both be true. It's either one or the other, but it's actually not. It's kind of both.

Martha: Yeah, I think that takeaways for me in this podcast is that people are just afraid that physical books are going to go away or disappear, , as technology advances with the rise of AI, they mentioned how If you use AI to read things for you, your comprehension goes down. So it seemed like the argument was really that people should continue to read [00:15:00] physical books,

and I understand the fear there, I do, but I just don't know if That's really a threat. , there was an article about how Barnes Noble is opening more stores because TikTok is increasing the amount of physical books that people are reading. So it seems like there might even be a correlation between technology and people reading more? But I could be totally off.

Elizabeth: No, I think that what you're getting at is the crux of it, , and it's worth pointing out one of the guests has a book out about reading that she wants to sell.

 I'm not saying that everything she says isn't true, but she has an agenda,, about reading paper books. She has a paper book out about reading paper books that she wants to sell. So there's nothing really wrong with the podcast. They cite real studies. It is true that reading as a whole has gone down in the past 20 years.

There are tons of benefits of, all sorts of reading, including and maybe especially reading paper books. Including a new [00:16:00] one that I never knew about, a study that said that readers live longer than non readers mortality

is down 20 percent or something like that. Even controlling for confounding factors like wealth, etc.

So yes, there are benefits to reading, reading has gone down, that is bad. But it also engages in a lot of the moral panic that I think that's what you're talking about. That moral panic and nostalgia and sort of anti technology, anti social media stuff, that whips people up into a frenzy.

 That's not really based on anything more than just, like I was saying, this exaggerated reading of the data and this , emotional response.

And, the emotional response is related to the emotions that people have about politics right now. , they brought up about, reading inherently political.

Which is true. You know, like we talked about in our book club episode, , but also it's like, what are we talking about? , are we talking about your feelings about the current political environment or are we talking about data? ? , it all gets into this soup that's sort of hard [00:17:00] to parse.

Martha: And it was just , part of their argument, of , we need to keep reading because, , if you don't, then you're not showing defiance for the powers that be because you're not going to be capable of free thought, which, , sure, okay, but it's all contributing to, like you said, that moral panic a certain argument and agenda that , they did have, but overall it was a good listen.

I think they brought up an interesting point too, and this is maybe where some of our biases and why it seems like such a dichotomy when we see these headlines is reading a niche hobby,

Elizabeth: Mm.

Martha: which I never really thought of it as a niche hobby. Certainly it's a hobby, but , I guess I just assumed it was more common.

It wasn't something so niche.

Elizabeth: Okay, I'm really glad that you brought that up because , this is really where we get into it, is reading a niche hobby. This is where all these narrative threads can start to come untangled, because, like you mentioned, Barnes Noble is opening more stores, reading [00:18:00] is going up. , Onyx Storm, which you mentioned earlier, , the third book in that series by Rebecca Yaros came out this week and broke all sorts of sale records. , The Fastest Selling Adult Novel in 20 Years since started keeping records. But in order to, understand what's going on here, we have to go beyond those headlines and actually look at what are the numbers that we're talking about here.

The Fastest Selling Adult Novel in 20 Years, it sold 2. 7 million copies in the first week. There are 335 million people in the U. S.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: So, that's a lot of books, and it's the most books that an adult novel has ever sold in the first week. But it's not everyone. It's a very small percentage of the actual population.

I feel like that's what's going on.

Martha: Yes. So maybe it is a niche hobby.

Elizabeth: Well, I don't know, describing it as a niche hobby, maybe put a pin in that because I feel like there's some value judgment that comes along with that phrasing. But there's something where it's like, people are reading.

Martha: hmm.

Elizabeth: There are people who [00:19:00] read, we're both big readers, but the number is relatively small compared to the entire population.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: When I was doing research for this episode, the 2021 Pew study is the place where a lot of these articles go.

, according to that study, 73 percent of men say that they've read a book in the past year and 78 percent of women say that they've read a book in the past A book, one single book. Those numbers are up from 2016 when it was 68 percent of men and 77 percent of women,

the number is increasing, but it's still not everyone. Reading one book a year, that makes you a reader according to these studies, but

reading one book a year is not what we're really talking about, when we talk about a reader, we're talking about someone who probably reads more than that. So I feel like that might be where some of the confusion is coming in.

Martha: hmm.

Elizabeth: All three Rebecca Yaros novels sold 12 million copies total.

Martha: Yeah, I think you're right. If we're talking about a hobby, like if someone said that they, played [00:20:00] an instrument and that was their hobby, but they only really played it one day out of the year. It would feel weird if you told people that was your hobby, so if we're actually talking about people who read as a hobby, it's probably more than one book a year.

Which is not to say we're putting any, moral judgment on people who only read one book a year, but just for the sake of this conversation, 

Yeah. 

I Get a little defensive when I see these headlines about people don't read because it feels like maybe they're judging what is being read, 

Martha: There's some discrimination based on genre going on because the most popular books right now are romance novels, romanticy, that is Like we talked about in the romance episode, the biggest genre. So it feels like a diss somehow for people to keep saying no one's reading and it's like well What about all of us romance readers?

We're out here reading so many books, clearly. [00:21:00] So that feels like something what do you think about that?

Elizabeth: I totally agree. I think there is something to that. I think that it would be, intellectually dishonest to say that there's not something going on there that is genre discrimination, it's gendered, because the people who read these books are women, and especially young women, and even in the New York Times article talking about how the Yaros book was the fastest selling in the first week of all time, they couldn't not talk about the fact that, at the launch event there was a fervor amongst the fans and that they all dressed up and that , some of them wore costumes and some of them wore, t shirts with the logo of the books on them, , and there was sort of like a, Look at these freaks kind of a tone to it.

And I don't think it was an accident that they compared it with people at a Taylor Swift concert, , trading friendship bracelets and dressing up and that comparison is not an accident, right? Things that young women love and that young women build community around, and also, by the way, buy, , are [00:22:00] contributing hugely economically to the country, are not taken seriously, are dismissed, are made fun of, denigrated and sneered at and whatever you want to say, you can't ignore that as part of this, right?

, there are people that are reading.

Martha: They're reading romance or something that is considered silly by other people. Let me present an alternative scenario for you. Say that there was a new literary fiction book out that Had midnight release parties and sold 2. 7 million copies the first week.

What do you think the press coverage would be like?

Elizabeth: You know, that's an interesting question because there was a similar type of press coverage of Sally Rooney's latest book that came out. Which I would describe as literary fiction. Sally Rooney is the literary world's darling right now in a lot of ways, [00:23:00] but she is also a woman and I think that I'll try to find the article that I read and put it in the show notes there was a similar treatment about how her fans treat her like she's a celebrity and that they were lining up for her book when it was released at midnight.

I don't wanna say too much about it because I don't have the specifics immediately to my memory, but that helps me clarify that it is both a genre and a gender thing, because what I can't imagine is that type of article about people lining up for like a Jonathan Franzen novel.

Sally Rooney's media coverage also is really weird because some people hate her and love to talk about how much they hate her and her writing , even when your book is literary fiction, if you're a woman writing it, and specifically a young woman, , Sally Rooney is relatively young. She's in her 30s. You can't escape this

Martha: Criticism. Just interesting.

Elizabeth: It is interesting and it actually ties into something else I was thinking about. I promise [00:24:00] that we'll get to the habits and the rituals part of this, of this episode, but it ties into another article that I read recently. That I think is really related to what we're talking about, about the parallel viral panic to this nobody reads anymore, to it being specifically worried about men not reading anymore.

 There was another pretty viral op ed that came out again in the New York Times. I feel like maybe the New York Times is one of the crux of the issues with the problem with this. They just keep pumping out these op eds about this topic, but it was called something like The Loss of Literary Men 

again, I'll find it and put it in the show notes, but it was talking about the way that there used to be a version of masculinity that was respected among men, of course, A lot of masculinity in what men do is actually to impress other men, not

women. right? 

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: So this was talking about how there was a version of masculinity that was respected , among men that was a bookish, erudite, you know, think tweed coats and[00:25:00] 

thick framed glasses, intellectual. And the author's point was that with the rise of Trump and the Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan, alpha male version of masculinity. That I think is, , pretty clearly a backlash to a lot of the social progress that women have made that that version of masculinity, that intellectual readerly version of masculinity has lost

favor. And so I saw that and I was just like, Oh God, , spare me. I don't know. do I have to care about this? I don't know, are men reading? Like sort yourselves out, you know. But I then saw, that's a very British phrase,

pull yourselves together. , but more interestingly, I then read an article in Vox that.

Read this same New York Times op ed about the loss of the literary man and just went super deep on debunking this notion that men don't read. I'll link it in the show notes and I really [00:26:00] think it's worth reading. But it's called Are Men's Reading Habits Truly a National Crisis?

The Questionable Statistic at the Heart of the Men Don't Read Fiction Discourse. And basically, this writer valiantly attempts to fact check this statistic that is often repeated and that I actually have to do a mea culpa that I think that I might have actually even repeated on this podcast, that men account for only 20 percent of the fiction market and that women 

You know, by definition then are 80 percent of the book buyers and readers, and she could not find an actual source, everything that she found was It was said in this other article that then said it was said in this other article that then said it was said in this other article, but it's just turtles all the way down and she can't find an actual source for it.

So she basically concludes that it's not real. There are some differences between men and women's reading. I rattled off some statistics a few minutes ago, it's 78 percent of women read a book a year versus 73 percent of men. , another thing that she said that she could find valid [00:27:00] statistics for is that, Women read 19 minutes per day versus men who are readers reading 12 minutes per day.

But , nothing like an 80 20 percent discrepancy. And so, maybe it was an offhand comment. Maybe it came from some type of specific publishing niche or genre. , who knows? But basically , this is a moral panic the same as , kids don't read or , no one's reading.

it's not actually based on real data. It is true that Americans don't read that much as a whole, but there are people who read. both of those things are true. People of all genders,

, men are reading.

Martha: it's probably just anecdotal. Like, oh, my husband doesn't read, so I just think men don't read, and then that gets circulated I do think it's very important that men should be reading, too, , because the first thing I was thinking about when I was cracking up about your, , do we really have to worry about this, sort yourselves out, is , it's Ken, it's the Barbie movie all over again, , patriarchy harms men, too, and , of course they should be reading and shouldn't feel like it's not [00:28:00] masculine to read so I'm glad that that seems to be a myth.

Elizabeth: Yeah, , and , I think that's a great point because it's erasing Lots of men that are reading. There are men who are reading. So, , stop saying that men aren't reading.

It's not true.

Martha: gonna make it worse. It's just gonna somehow reiterate, , to some boys that are hearing this, , Oh, men don't read, so I shouldn't read. If this is not a true statistic that we need to be worried about, it out.

Elizabeth: We do need to be worried about this, , alpha male, Trump, Andrew Tate, , bullshit that is the internet, but Come at it from an intellectually honest

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: vantage point,, it's not about men not reading books. , come up with a real analysis of that phenomenon that engages with it head on.

, but anyway, what we really want to talk about today is how we do manage to be readers. , I think that. Based on all of that, , what we know is that both of us would be considered [00:29:00] voracious readers compared to the entire U.

S. population. But that doesn't mean that it just happens for us, right? Or that it's easy or that we don't have any struggles with it. So I would love to first talk about the struggles that we have had with reading and with fitting reading in and, you know, all that stuff.

Martha: Yeah. I touched on this a little bit when we talked about what we were reading. My biggest struggle right now is having too many books to read at once. And it just all comes down to prioritizing your time, and that is pretty hard. where I'm lacking right now. Just this season in my life, I have not been prioritizing reading my books as much as I should be.

Should. Take the should out of it, right? I just haven't been prioritizing reading as much as maybe in the past. One of the ways that I deal with that, That is when I have a page goal, which I try not to do, but if you're reading on a deadline because you want to be in these book clubs, , [00:30:00] that's something you committed to and you want to do, you might have a page goal and a timeline.

And when that happens to me, I like to look at the pages I have left, the amount of days I have left. I do a simple math problem, figure out how many pages a day I need to read. And. put my phone on do not disturb and get that done. And then once I reach my page goal for the day, I'll allow myself to scroll a little bit or, , reward quote unquote myself in some way.

And although that does feel a little bit at odds with some of the things that we've talked about on the podcast about how reading should be enjoyable, and , you take the should out of it, I just go back to , the fact that I want to be in these book clubs, I find enjoyment being in them, and the fact is that, that means you have a timeline for reading, and sometimes you just have to make yourself get it done.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I don't think that's contradictory at all. I think that makes total sense.

That tip [00:31:00] about putting your phone in Do Not is, one that I would echo. Because I would say that I'm sure like many people, my main struggle is my phone.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: My phone and , to a lesser extent, TV. Sucking vast amounts of my free time more than I want them to.

 I'm not necessarily saying that spending time on your phone or on TV is bad, but I want to spend less time on those things and more time on reading, and that is the struggle for me. And so when I am reading, one of the habits or rituals, whatever you want to call it, that I have is deciding how long I want to read for and putting my phone on do not disturb and turning it face down and often putting it across the room, literally putting it out of my reach.

, sometimes I'll set a timer on it that will go off even through the do not disturb so that I know that. I'll only spend the amount of time that I've decided I want to spend and then I reward myself, quote unquote, by getting to look at my [00:32:00] phone. , but if I don't do that, then I just mindlessly will pick it up in the way that we do.

Always picking it up, always checking. So it's not like I don't struggle with that, I do struggle with it, but , like you said, you just do it. And the more that you do it, the easier it gets, or the more you have This habit built around it so that you're not deciding to do it every time.

It just happens.

It's like exercising a muscle, . And I think we've said that before. It really is not gonna just happen. You have to practice. You have to exercise.

You have to go to the gym.

Martha: Yeah. And just like any new hobby, you're not good at it at first. Usually. , it takes time to improve your skills, and, flexing your attention span, so to speak, is no different.

Elizabeth: Yeah. , we've talked about this too with the attention span thing. It is both true and also overstated. Yes, our attention spans are, shorter or more distractible, however you want to say it. [00:33:00] But that's not something that is insurmountable., yes, I used to read huge door stop classics for hours at a time when I was a teenager because there was no phone and there was no internet.

And I had nothing else to do. So my attention span was long but just because that's not my natural state anymore doesn't mean that it is hopeless. , you just have to practice it.

Martha: essentially, we grew up at a reading retreat,

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Martha: a cabin in the woods with nothing else to do, so. Of course it's gonna be different than now, and it is what it is.

Elizabeth: Yeah, but I do get really frustrated with the way that people talk about the attention span thing. It's just like, oh, well, my attention span is too short now. I can't read anymore. , like, it's a fait accompli thing. There's just nothing I can do about it. And it's not. That's just not true.

Martha: just an excuse. It's just an excuse. Just say I'd rather watch TikTok. That's fine.

Elizabeth: I think for some people it's not an excuse. It's just . Maybe, maybe, if you, if you [00:34:00] peeled under the layers, but Alex and I argue about this all the time. He thinks that his attention span is just ruined for reading and that he can never do it again. And I'm like, no, you just have to , start small, set your timer at five minutes, say you're going to read for five minutes without looking at your phone and then next time read for seven minutes.

Martha: Well, and Alex too, we've talked about this before. Are you reading books you actually enjoy and want to read? Or are you just bored with the books that you're picking and that's why you quote unquote have a short attention span? Mm

Elizabeth: is another thing with him is that he refuses to DNF, but. The other thing for me is that I have a prioritization issue with the things that I want to use my free time for, even someone, , without kids whose life is not necessarily super busy, I have to choose what I want to do, , with my free time. You know, I have different seasons with this. Right now, I choose going on a hike or going to the coast or seeing friends over, refusing all social invitations and sitting in my house and reading. But there have been seasons of my life [00:35:00] where I have done that.

 I would rather be at home with a book than out at a social event.

, that's a choice thing, but it can be a struggle if you have a lot of competing priorities.

Martha: What about your environment? Do you, , set up a certain space or have any rituals around, , the beverages you have, or anything like that?

Elizabeth: Yeah, that is an interesting one. I was thinking about that. I don't really have any rituals around my physical space except for that my print book reading I mainly do in bed, before I go to bed. Yeah. For me, the ritual is more of, a habit stack.

Where, well, like I just said, I read right before I go to bed for like 30 minutes. I've talked before about how I listen to audiobooks when I'm walking. And when I'm walking is one of the only times that I feel like I can listen to audiobooks because there's something about the attention that's needed for me to listen to audiobooks that I just for some reason can't give when I'm [00:36:00] driving or when I'm doing other things, but walking is a perfect time to do that.

And so, because that naturally was the case for me, I've now created, , an automated process where when I go for a walk I'm listening to an

audiobook. I've talked before in the podcast about how Al and I read books aloud to each other and we do that after dinner. Again, one thing happens and the reading happens.

Martha: hmm.

Elizabeth: I think for me, that's more what it is than the atmosphere there are specific moments in my day where reading has become a habit. And so I just do it without even

thinking. 

Martha: It's more a timing thing than a get cozy, have this certain set up sort of thing, it sounds 

Elizabeth: Yeah. . I think so. What about you? Do you have an environment ritual or anything like that?

Martha: I have been reading on the couch recently, , I got my pillows on my lumbar, set up the way that's comfortable, and a little blanket, and I like when Ruby's next to me, and, , I have been reading mostly in the afternoons more [00:37:00] recently, not before bed, because I struggle with training myself to get tired when I'm reading my physical book, So I don't want my brain to associate reading with falling asleep.

I don't really have a problem falling asleep at night. So I don't need to use reading to get me into that head space so much. So I actually struggle with the opposite. Like when I sit on the couch. It makes me sleepy and I want to take a nap instead of read. So I'm trying to actively not do that. So maybe I, this makes me sound like I don't have a job, but maybe I take a nap before, before I read in the afternoon and then get, you know, 30 pages in after I wake up or something.

And of course that's not always the case. There's some days where I'm too busy to do that and , you fit it in where you can before bed or in the morning or whatever. Maybe there is a little bit of an environmental ritual, but I do it [00:38:00] subconsciously. I don't think it's something that I intentionally set up to make myself do it, other than putting my phone on do not disturb and trying not to be distracted. 

when I And in the midst of something chaotic, like the airport, waiting for a flight, I feel like I'm way more able to get into a book and just immerse myself when I need to disassociate. And, , I don't have the option to take a nap or do a load of laundry or something. It's like, this is what I'm doing and I can fully submerse myself into that world.

Which is similar to what I do when I listen to audiobooks. , I do it when My brain needs distracting when I'm cleaning, or driving, or getting ready for work, or whatever.

Elizabeth: That's interesting that you said disassociate. So I was going to ask, do you feel like it serves the purpose of, blocking out that outside environment when that outside environment feels chaotic? , do you feel like that's something That your brain needs, so it latches on [00:39:00] to, so it makes it easier for you to do in that chaotic environment.

Martha: Yeah, it could be. It's not that I, , get anxiety or anything I could people watch, or I could, , actually read my book. You 

Elizabeth: Yeah. 

Martha: I don't know, It's maybe less to do with the physical environment and more to do with just shutting my brain off.

, your brain's still working when you're reading, but you're not just thinking.

Elizabeth: well it's shutting it off to distracting thoughts, but also to outside distractions. That, that captured me though, because a similar thing happens with me. I don't do this daily, so I didn't include it in my rituals, but I can read anywhere.

, I also can write anywhere, when I really get into it, , I'm one of those people that the ambient noise of a cafe or an airport or whatever, almost is helpful to me because I know that I have to, , focus to drown those things out. So it makes me focus more as opposed to.

 I know there are some people who to read or write, they feel like they [00:40:00] need complete and absolute silence and no one around and , for me, I can read a book anywhere. And sometimes people have commented on that, like, I don't understand how you can focus on reading right now.

And I'm like, actually, it's easier for me to 

Martha: Yes. 

Elizabeth: when there's a lot going

Martha: Yes! I think, I think there is something to that, Liz, and I'm the same way. It's almost like And maybe this is just how our brains work, and I'm sure that there's other people who feel similarly. Maybe it's because we're neurodivergent in some way. But,

if there's too much open space, right? If there's too much calm, it leaves my brain too open to think.

 And not focus on reading.

Elizabeth: Yeah. I'm not going to say that it's definitely not a neurodivergence thing, but I will say that , in the writer's communities that I'm in, this is something that a lot of people talk about. It could be that neurodivergence is overrepresented in the writing community. That's totally possible. But a lot of people talk about the [00:41:00] perception that they had of writing is that they would be the most productive in the A space that was free of distractions during a time that's free of distractions, this idea of the writing retreat where you go away for, , four or five days and all you have to do is writing , and people bring you meals and there's no distractions. When people have actually done that, I think that Sarah T.

Dubb talked about this in her interview, how she went to a friend's house to write and stared at the wall for the whole time and didn't get anything done. There's actually something that is pretty common about that not being as conducive to that creative process as you think.

And what actually happens is that when you have to fit it in between the school pickup and your meetings or whatever, your brain much more quickly focuses on the task at hand and just gets it done.

Martha: Yeah, I think you're exactly right in that, because when I was listening to you talk about the retreat, I was like having a visceral reaction of how much I would not like that, because I am a big procrastinator, and I perform a lot better under a deadline or under pressure. , [00:42:00] if I have a task, Which is why I get myself into these predicaments with these book clubs.

I'm like, oh, I'll have plenty of time to read that book, and then I'm like, oh crap, I have to read this in two days. 

So I'm sure there's definitely something to that. It's just part of who we are.

Elizabeth: yeah, that's really interesting. 

Martha: I think the last don't know if you can call this a ritual, but it could certainly be considered a habit. What's helped me read more in the last year is getting used to not finishing a book that I'm not liking.

if I'm really struggling to read a book, and not just because I procrastinated to read it, and now I have a certain number of pages, but , if I'm picking it up and I can only spend five minutes and it's boring me to death, then it's probably a sign that I need to just not finish it, and so I'm getting more comfortable and used to that, and that's helping me, , not only enjoy reading more, but Ironically, read more books by reading less of the books that I don't like.

Elizabeth: as you know, I think that's just so [00:43:00] crucial.

Martha: Yeah.

Elizabeth: It's just so important for , , actually being able to read consistently and, , finish books. You have to be enjoying it or else it's just gonna be a slog.

Martha: Mm hmm.

Elizabeth: And especially in today's, you know, distraction filled world, you'll find something else to do that's more appealing.

Martha: hmm. Yeah, and , I don't know if we really went over anything in this episode that's completely new but Everyone's different, and what works for one person might not work for another. So if you are someone who needs to set up a little cozy environment, and only read a certain time of day, and do all the things, then do it.

Elizabeth: Yes, definitely. And I'd also love to hear from people, , if there is a ritual or a habit that you've had a lot of success with, , share it because It might be helpful to us or it might be helpful to someone else. We'll share out the ideas that we get on social media.

Martha: Yeah, so if you have a ritual or a habit that helps you read, [00:44:00] Send us an email to allbooksaloudpod at gmail. com. And like Liz said, we'd love to share it with the rest of our listeners. And for even more bookish content, you can follow us on social media, on Instagram and TikTok at allbooksaloudpod.

And make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. And read on, my friends. 

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