Is it cozy? Dark academia? What about the romance? For History Lessons author Zoe B. Wallbrook being cross-genre is not a bug, it's a feature [Interview]

In this episode, we are lucky enough to talk with author Zoe B. Wallbrook about her critically acclaimed debut novel, History Lessons. It's a clever, witty mystery on its surface that touches on deeper, more challenging issues with what the New York Times calls "a satirical bite." It also has a sweet romantic subplot that we are here for!

It was Library Journal's Mystery Debut of the Month in July, and was chosen as one of The Best Debut Crime Novels of 2025 by Crime Reads Magazine and one of The 10 Best Mystery Novels of 2025 by The New York Times Review of Books.

Elizabeth met Zoe in 2019 and since then they have been critique partners and friends, which makes this conversation extra special. Join us to hear about the books Zoe loves, her journey to becoming a writer, how she navigates the publishing industry while still holding onto the joy she finds from writing, and how she feels about her writing being categorized as "cozy." We also chat about diversity in the mystery genre and how Zoe and her publisher, Soho Press, think about all the various threads in her writing as a feature, not a bug.

You won't want to miss this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation with the always insightful Zoe B. Wallbrook and two of her fangirls.

Find Zoe on Instagram @zbwallbrook or at her website: https://www.zoebwallbrook.com/. And buy History Lessons wherever books are sold!

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Books we're reading in this episode:

Piranesi by Susanna Clarke

In Winter I Get Up at Night by Jane Urquhart

A Murder for Miss Hortense by Mel Pennant

Martyr! by Kaveh Akbar

Brothers Sinister Series by Courtney Milan

Lord of Scoundrels by Loretta Chase

The Poppy War trilogy by R.F. Kuang

A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik

Transcript

[All Books Aloud intro and theme music]

Liz: . Hi Martha. How are you?

Martha: Hey Liz. I am good because we have a special guest today and we know our listeners love these interview episodes. So welcome to our guest, Zoe b Walbrook.

Zoe: Hi everybody. Thanks so much for having me.

Martha: Yeah, thank you for being here, Zoe. Zoe is a professor by day who also writes mysteries during the Day. Usually accompanied by her dog, a cup of coffee and a debilitating [00:01:00] sense of dread, which these are your own words from your website. I'm not prescribing this to you.

Zoe: That's fair.

Martha: , Her hobbies include beginning all emails with , my sincerest apologies for my slow reply, pretending to understand how astrological signs work and crying at the end of every call.

The midwife episode. Aw. She and her husband live with their stalker, A Black lab pity mix named Sophie. Her debut novel history lessons came out this past July to stellar reviews in places like The New York Times. Wow. Woo woo. Among others, and is a mystery that follows. Daphne Overture, a college history professor who must solve her superstar colleague's murder before she becomes the next target. It is smart, funny, and also has a romantic subplot, which we love.

Liz: We do, we love a subplot, romantic subplot.

Martha: Yes.

Liz: I also wanna selfishly pipe in [00:02:00] because I am not an impartial interviewer today. I mean,

I don't know if I ever am an impartial interviewer, but Zoe and I met during a writing mentor contest that we both had books chosen for back in 2019. We were introduced by another writer in our cohort, Gigi Griffis, and I remember us hitting it off right away over email.

But then when I read your writing, I just immediately wanted to be your best friend. I was like, I need this woman to stay in my life so I can keep reading her. , So here we are. , You haven't been able to get rid of me since. , So since then, Zoe and I have been critique partners, , we are the first people that read each other's writing, which has just been a wonderful support for me over the years. So thank you again for joining us to chat Zoe. I really appreciate it.

Zoe: Oh, thanks. No, like I said, happy to be here. , Elizabeth also has been so critical to my writing journey over the last however many years, and just in the trenches together in all kinds of [00:03:00] ways, having all kinds of meltdowns and crises, also moments of joy. , And it feels really special. I have to say that , we're still here, we're still writing, we're still trying to find ways to balance everything going on in our really busy kind of crazy lives, you know?

Liz: It is so important , to find that community if you're gonna do this crazy, writing thing.

Zoe: Yes, a

Liz: yes, I'm very grateful for you. , Okay enough of that love fest. Let's get down to it. , At the beginning of our, , podcast episode, Zoe, we talk about what we're reading right now.

Do you wanna go first?

Zoe: , Yes, I have too many books that I am juggling slash reading slash recently have read or am reading again. , So I thought I would just , blurt out , the list, , which is that, , I did recently, , finish Mel Penant book, A Murder for Miss Horten. That's a really great mystery set in the uk.

, And it's following the lives of the wind rush [00:04:00] generation. , And, , yeah, intricate, intricately plotted, , and the characters felt really true to life and to, , , how I understand the wind rush generation. , So I've been reading that. , I finally. Picked up Kave Akbar's book Martyr, which I think was really popular a couple years ago.

I think it was like a national book award winner. , And I wasn't expecting it to be so funny. It's really kind of funny and silly while also occasionally deep. . , I think like both of you am a romance novel junkie. , So I've been listening on audiobook 'cause I already read it ages ago, but I've been listening on audiobook to Courtney Milan's brother Sinister box set again, just for fun, , which has been great.

And also I have yet to read for historical romance. Loretta Chase. I recently picked up Loretta Chase, Lord of Scoundrels. It's like old school vintage. , I've been listen to you on an audiobook a little bit, or I just started the preview and the writing already had me hooked. I was like, I forgot.

The writing can be just so great. Um, RA Kwang, the [00:05:00] Poppy War trilogy. I finished the first one. I need to start the second one. And then I also am listening on audiobook to Naomi Novak, , deadly Education, which is also fantasy. , Yeah, that's a lot, I guess.

Liz: is a lot.

Zoe: Okay, fine. I'm kind of a hot mess.

Liz: So, wait, I have a question. Do you go back and forth between audio books, , or do you listen to one and then

Zoe: Right now I'm mostly listening to Courtney Milan, brother sinister Boxset. But then I took a break from it at one point and started Naomi Novak Dudley Education, which I really was enjoying. And then I got distracted again and switched back to Brett. So I guess I am kind of toggling.

Yeah, I guess I'm toggling back and forth.

Martha: Yeah, maybe a bit of a mood listener, depending on your mood. Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Yeah, I think so. And also what, , what needs to be cleaned in my house. I think that also determines what I'm listening

Martha: yeah. Based on vibes. That makes sense. It's like a, soundtrack to your day, what you choose.

Zoe: yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Martha: love that you have multiple [00:06:00] platforms going on, like Liz and I always do too. Like audiobook, paper, book, you know, all the

Zoe: yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, I mean same. So audio, audio, book, paper, book and , Kindle, I think between the three of them is just an endless rotating cycle , of books. And I was just complaining to my husband though that I'm still not reading enough, that I still am not taking enough time to just sit down and read.

Martha: Aw.

Zoe: yeah, it's

Liz: We always do that to ourselves, but, , it sounds like you're reading a lot. As is generally my role with you, Zoe, I'm gonna tell you not to beat up on yourself and yourself a break.

Zoe: No, it's true. And then I do the same. Right? And then we just go back and more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true. But.

Liz: What are you reading right now, Martha?

Martha: , So I'm reading Pirenisi by Susanna Clark. It is a pretty popular book. I think a lot of people know about it by now. It won the women's prize for fiction in 2021. It's a fantasy. I am. [00:07:00] About 50 pages in, so I'm just kind of getting the lay of the land.

But it follows Pirenisi who lives in this world as he calls it, which is basically a big house full of different chambers that have statues in them and. It kind of gets filled up with tides every now and then. So it seems like the world is never ending, he is always exploring, always going from room to room to learn more about this world, and he's never found the end or the beginning of it.

And each. Vestibule is different, has different things in it. There's only one other living person who he calls the other, and they have meetings sometimes and they're trying to seek out this knowledge as they call it, that's supposed to give them some sort of enlightenment. And other than that, , there's dead bodies, but no other [00:08:00] living people.

. Birds will fly in and out and he makes observations about them, and that's kind of where I'm at. So it's a little bit of a mystery. It's definitely a fantasy and very interesting. Not really like any other book I've read before, so I'm really curious to see what happens.

Liz: I am too. I don't know what I thought that book was about, but it wasn't that. I did not,

Martha: Yeah.

Liz: understand that that's what it was like. I,

Zoe: Is Susanna Clark also the author of, , Jonathan Strange and Mr. Nor?

Martha: Yes.

Liz: so.

Zoe: think that's how I'm familiar with her. Right, right. So she does like these large epics with some kooky characters it sounds like, who are also pursuing knowledge. That's so interesting.

Martha: the character Pirenisi is really intriguing, really great so far. And then the other is kind of just making appearances. Seems a little untrustworthy. He knows things that he's not sharing is what it seems like. [00:09:00] So yeah, I'm excited to see what happens. , And hopefully I'll have an update if we do a end of the year wrap up like we did last year. And then I'm listening to the Half Blood Prince by JK Rowling in my yearly re-listen of the Jim Dale versions, which I love. They're just my comfort. Reads at the end of the year in the holiday season, and that's it. What about you, Liz?

Liz: I just started reading. I'm about 50 pages in. I wanna say also with the book, it's called In Winter. I Get Up at Night by Jane Erkart, I think is how you say her name. And if you listen to our interview with Nancy Pearl listeners, , she suggested this book and I actually checked it out from the library.

I think maybe right after we , talked with her. And I just now am getting to reading it. Whoops. The privileges of being able to renew my books at the library as many times as I want. [00:10:00] Um, I would definitely call it literary fiction. , Jane Kart is a Canadian writer, and, , Nancy loves her and has talked about her for years.

Actually. I think that she might have talked about her when I was taking classes with her in grad school, and so I wanted to give it a try. I kind of feel like it's good for me because . The way that the story is unfolding is very different from the romance novels and mystery novels that I have basically been devouring for the last several years since the pandemic started, and I decided I was gonna shift my reading towards things that were just.

Martha: Light.

Liz: and more , yeah, more escapist. And so, as you know, Martha, I and Zoe, I don't remember if we talked about this, but over the last year or so, I've been slowly every, so often getting back into reading literary fiction, which before I always felt like was the only thing that I should be reading.

And I didn't allow myself to read other genres. And then during the pandemic, I swung really far over to the other side of that. And so I'm trying to find a happy medium I am enjoying [00:11:00] it.

I don't want to put it down, but it definitely is reminding me how many different ways a story can be told. , Because also with my writing, I'm writing a romance novel right now, and. I really want it to fit into the romance genre. So I've been really reading a lot and studying a lot like the different beats that you need to hit for a romance novel and when you hit them and like what the reader expectations are.

And so I've been really immersed in that. And this book is just reminding me you don't always have to do that. , There are lots of different ways. This isn't a romance novel, but you know what I'm saying? There are lots of different ways that a story can be told and that the information can be unfolded to the reader.

It's definitely slow, but it's very interesting. So anyway, I haven't actually told you what it's about. I don't really know yet. 'cause , I'm only 50 pages in, but it's about, this character , named Emer, . And she is a music teacher in rural Canada. , I can't remember the province.

She lives in Ontario at one point and then , at different point she lives in Saskatchewan. And , [00:12:00] it's going back and forth between her present and talking about her and also telling the story of her childhood. She had a very traumatic experience with what she calls the Great wind, which I'm starting to figure out.

Might have been a tornado or something. Do they have tornadoes that North and Canada? I don't

Martha: I don't know.

Liz: But , she has an accident and it changes the trajectory of her life. And that's basically all I have up to this point. So yeah, it's definitely different than what has become my normal, but I am really enjoying it and I feel like it's helping me to sort of, re-expand my mind when it comes to the way that, , you can write and tell a story.

Zoe: In a similar way, I feel like this last year I've also started getting back into literary fiction, hence me picking up Cave Akbar's book Martyr, for example. I think, , and yeah, I'm also trying to strike a balance I think between reading literary fiction, which is what I only used to read for the longest time , and other stuff.

Yeah.

Martha: Mm-hmm. Yeah, a common thread., With it being literary fiction, Liz, is the doorway mostly language or [00:13:00] character or what would you say At this point?

Liz: I would say it's mostly character. I know that we talked with Nancy about how a lot of times with literary fiction, , the doorway is , language. And the writing is good. It's good writing, but I wouldn't say that the language has been something that stopped me at this point, I'm not like, oh, I need to remember that sentence, or, oh, that's such a beautiful way to say that. Really. So I think it's mostly character and we're in this one character's head. It's all about her. It's not first person, but it's actually is it first person? I'm so immersed in her point of view that I don't actually know if it's close third or first person.

But I definitely think character.

Martha: So the pacing, it sounds like is due to the way it's all unfolding and the detail . Yeah.

Liz: Yeah. You get a little bit of information in the beginning , she alludes to the accident. She alludes to this man that she, , was in love with until recently and I think maybe he passed away. You just get little snippets and then as the story goes on, you get a little bit more of the picture of the accident, a little bit more of the picture of the man, a little bit [00:14:00] more of the picture of her mom and her family.

So yeah,

Martha: , I just had a thought, this is a little bit of a tangent, but. We've talked a lot about tropes on the podcast for , genres like sci-fi and fantasy and romance, and how they all have common tropes. Do you think that literary fiction is so, so surprising because there aren't really common tropes or are there common tropes in literary fiction?

Liz: Are there tropes in literary fiction?

Zoe: Well, yes. I mean, there are tropes in every genre, right? , one of the jokes about writing fiction is that there's no new stories in some ways, right? We're just telling the same kinds of stories over and over again. Within literary fiction, maybe because it's also such a huge sprawling world, it, helps to think about like sub genres within that , as a way to recognize, , something like tropes or to recognize something like, , themes or I don't, I dunno. There's a whole joke for a long time, for example, about [00:15:00] Jonathan Franzen and all of his books said in , middle class suburban America with all of these , white suburban women in them, right?

I mean, so I feel like there can be, there can be tropes or things like that,

Liz: I definitely think there are tropes in the sense that there are common things that come up. I think that the tropes are not named in the way they are in mystery or romance, and so it makes it harder to talk about. But for instance, I don't feel like you're allowed to have a really happy ending

Martha: Yeah. Yeah.

Liz: Do you agree with that, Zoey? I don't mean that all the endings have to be tragic, but I don't feel like there's ever . A happily ever after in a literary fiction

Zoe: Hmm.

Liz: novel

Zoe: You have to think about

Liz: in the same way that there is in a romance novel.

Zoe: No, , I wanna like to my shelf. Well, even if there is a happily ever after , in a work of literary fiction, it's kind of purpose in general is different anyway. I don't think everything hangs on the happily ever after or on the crime being solved.

, So if it happens or doesn't happen, that's almost [00:16:00] irrelevant or besides the point, , it doesn't mean there aren't conclusive satisfying endings, but, , yeah.

Liz: No satisfying. Certainly.

Zoe: yeah, yeah. 

yeah. Right, for genres like romance and crime fiction. 'cause I know this always bothers people.

They're like, it's so formulaic or something like that. But actually really the pleasure comes from solving this question of how, , how are the couple gonna get together? How is the protagonist gonna solve the crime? Right. The how is the joyful part, so to speak, unless you're actually writing the thing, like Liz and I, and then we're just in pain all the time. Yeah. We're just suffering.

Martha: I love that perspective. You're so right.

Zoe: Yeah.

Liz: , That was also a good segue. Okay, Zoe, let's start talking about your book and your writing. Your book history lessons , came out this past summer, as Martha mentioned, but I was lucky enough to read a draft of that book back in 2019.

, And it definitely is the same book, but it has gone through a journey. , And I know that that wasn't the first draft of it either. So tell us a little bit about your writing journey, how you got started, , how you [00:17:00] got

to where you are today.

Zoe: , I started writing, , for fun in 2018, and that way I think I'm kind of a late bloomer. , I'm not one of these. People who knew at age eight that they were going to be a writer, , or anything like that. And then, , I had an idea and I shared it with my sister and she was like, this is great.

Keep going. Which, looking back, it was not great. , The writing was terrible and I was like, what were you thinking? And she was like, I don't know. You seemed happy, right? And so here I'm over many years later. , I blame her all the time for this, , yes, as I should. , And then , like Elizabeth, I at some point, , applied for Pitch Wars, the mentoring program.

, We both got in the same year, 2019 to 2020. And that was really, I think the first time ever I had revised , novel kind of substantially. , , which was really great. And , my mentor, her name is Elizabeth Little, and she was fantastic and I really feel so fortunate that, I ended up with her.

So she helped me to learn how to [00:18:00] revise, , in 2020 I got my first agent, , and then had to revise again and, gave it to my agent and then had to revise again, , and then it finally did go on sub, that's the term for submitting to editors and publishing houses.

, And then it's just a really nerve wracking waiting game for me. I think it took about nine months, which is. On the one hand, kind of normal. , On the other hand, it's still awful. , And then I think everyone imagines they're gonna get a deal in four days, but that just so rarely ever happens.

, And so I had to learn that too. , And then, I got my deal with. Soho, which was lovely. , And then I still had to face more revisions. , It was just constant, constant, constant, constant revision. , Yeah. I'm having to have more about what was advised Elizabeth.

I'm curious what you noticed had changed. I can tell you the big obvious things that changed, , the first time I wrote this. Book and revised it, and the version that Elizabeth read first. , I [00:19:00] think everything was split 50 50 between two points of view, between the detective and my main character, Daphne Overture.

, And then I got to soho, and at that point I was also starting to feel ambivalent about, a dual POV for this book. And so when I got to Soho, they were like, how would you feel about shifting? The POV almost entirely to the professor. And I was like, that's exactly what I want. But that ended up meaning I had to rewrite at least 50% of the book.

, Actually really more than that, , in terms of making sure everything flowed. , And not just that, but the question of, , it's one thing for a detective to try to solve. Things and get clues, , who have access to databases and state records, whatever. But what do you do if it's an amateur? So, you know, , trying to really give Daphne agency to solve the mystery was a huge rewrite at the beginning.

Liz: Yeah. I would say the other big thing that changed is, , it made me a little sad, but I got it, is, , there's less of the [00:20:00] romantic subplot in the final version of the book than there was in the version that I read.

Zoe: Yeah. , That's. Fair. , I think the idea was that there would be more to come. , , but , you're right. I always want more romance. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. But that's , a difference that you noticed,

Liz: but I think that it didn't surprise me because we talked a lot during Pitch Wars and after about the way that our various books that we are working on at the time fit into different genres. And it is really hard to sell a book that is equally both mystery and romance. Because , where do you put it on the shelf?

You know? And Martha and I, we've talked about this on the podcast too. So , there's your creative vision, but then it meets with the realities of the publishing industry at some point, if you're lucky. 

Zoe: Yes. 

Yes. 

Liz: And then you have to . Figure out , how to bring those two things together.

Martha: How.

, I was just thinking about all of these revisions and how much work that would be and how do you stay [00:21:00] engaged with the story or what does that feel like? Do you still love your story and want to work on it, or does it just start to feel like a bit of a chore? Or what does that process feel like as a writer?

Zoe: Um, both. I think unfortunately, yes, parts of it can feel like a chore. , I think that's kind of inevitable at some point if you want to keep going because at some point you just have to get nitpicky almost about certain kinds of details and. Storylines and, , develop these spreadsheets that keep track of act one versus act two versus act three.

I mean, there is a way in which, , , it can feel like that. But I think at the same time, and I think this is why we keep. Doing this to ourselves, is that you're also still chasing the magic. You're chasing that high, this kind of experience where, you know, you're in the zone writing and is coming out in a way . That makes you kind of light up inside. , So I think , it's hard to keep trying to chase the magic sometimes and [00:22:00] that can feel itself like a chore, but man, when you get there, it can be a really great feeling.

Yeah.

Martha: that's awesome.

Zoe: Addicting.

Martha: From someone who's not a writer, I just, I always think it's so fascinating and cool how writing is such a mixture of an art and a craft, and it's just so unique in that way.

Zoe: Yeah. , I really think at this point, , this is gonna sound maybe strange, but I think at this point I think of writing almost as a, also as like a compulsion. Yes, that it's lovely to write for readers and it's lovely to write for an audience, but above all, I have to write for myself, and really get into the practice of writing regularly or, I was joking , with my husband about if I don't write every day in some way, shape, or form or capacity, whether it's academic writing or my fiction writing, , I kind of have a meltdown.

, It's just my way of getting in touch with myself if I can have like an hour or two to be in a quiet place to just [00:23:00] get in touch with my own thinking. Yeah.

Liz: We've talked about that a lot. That there are easier hobbies to have,

like why do we do this to ourself? But it is because we have, , there's just a need. You just have to, or else I would, do more cross stitch and less torturing of myself over plot lines and character develop.

Zoe: Right, right. Please. There are so many other easier things to do with one's time. There are easier ways to make money. This is also not like a lucrative thing. Right. , Yeah. Yeah. So you're doing it because for some reason you have to. And I also don't think I need to know why I'm doing it. I just know that I need to do it, so I'm just gonna keep doing

Martha: Mm-hmm. 

Zoe: Yeah. 

Martha: Have you always written mysteries or did you start with a different genre or?

Zoe: No, I've always written mysteries. , Although, , like Elizabeth was saying,, I think I've learned that I straddle the lines between different genres or sub genres or things like that. , Elizabeth has read, I think he read my chef Mystery ages ago. I wrote a,

Liz: I want that chef mystery to

come out.

Zoe: [00:24:00] Me too. Me too. Eventually, hopefully one day. So I wrote a whole, , mystery set at a Michel's starred restaurant in Las Vegas. , where Chef solved mystery, and I originally started that one off as a romance. And then I think honestly within a couple hours of writing, I was like, Hmm, it needs a dead body.

It just needs a dead

Liz: Gotta gotta drop a dead. You know what? This romance could use a dead body.

Zoe: Exactly. So I think I just, for some reason,, I think I really like, the puzzle solving elements of mysteries, puzzle making and puzzle solving. All events , of writing mysteries, reading mysteries. In that way I'm a really traditional mystery writer in which the dead body is a puzzle and you're just trying to solve it.

Right? And so that, that's really, , what I crave 

Martha: Hmm. 

Zoe: from writing.

Yeah. 

Liz: Yeah. That's cool. The last episode we did was a deep dive into the mystery genre, and so we talked a lot about the history of mystery and the different sub-genres and conventions [00:25:00] and stuff, and with mysteries. So , it's interesting to hear about it from your

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: yeah, yeah.

Martha: Do you think of your mysteries as cozy mysteries

Zoe: ooh. Uh, thank you Martha for that question. I was on a panel recently , where it was all black mystery writers, where we also got asked this question. , And you know, some of them were like, absolutely, this is a cozy mystery. , And I think I feel more ambivalent. , , I jokingly say. That I write cozy mysteries for intersectional feminists, which like is kind of true.

I think it just depends on what we mean by cozy., And this is what got me in trouble, I think, in terms of genres and sub genres, right? And things like that. If cozy means. No swearing and no sex on the page or anything like that. I am not your girl, right? But at the same time, .

My book History Lessons is not, , like dark noir psychological thriller either, right? , And so I think for those reasons I think people had a hard time figuring out [00:26:00] what this was. , But I'm really, really grateful for soho and for my editor Alexa, who, , said, , pretty much from the jump, she was like, this, look, this isn't a bug.

That it's neither nor it's a feature. Right. And I really like that framing of it. It's not a bug, it's feature. Can we have something that's in between the cozy and the dark nore, whatever. , So in that way, I think it's just a traditional, it's like a traditional mystery

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Yeah. But what do you guys think?

I mean, you 

read it. 

Liz: When we were talking about the different sub subgenres on the mystery episode, , I mean, of course I read a lot of cozy mysteries. , I would say that's my favorite subgenre of mystery, really. But I didn't really know what made it cozy. I was just like, it just, I don't know.

It's cozy, so I read up a lot on it, and there is that element of like, it's , sort of gentle, right? , I found this article that Martha and I read that we were laughing about the title. The title was some like it mild. [00:27:00] To describe cozy mysteries, but actually one of the bigger elements that I read about that define something as cozy is the amateur sleuth.

So that's the part where I was like, oh, , 'cause you were just talking about how Daphne has to work outside of the structure of the police. 'cause she's just a normal person. Right. And that, that is one of the key, , defining features , of cozy mysteries is the amateur slew. So , even though you have Asma who is a detective, in the final version, , her, , point of view and what she does to solve the mystery , is a lot less than it was initially.

And so the main mystery solving falls on Daphne. And we looked at a couple of academic articles, from feminists and gender studies about the cozy mystery genre and their take on, part of the reason that it evolved this way is because women were not allowed to be police officers and to be detectives in the sort of early 20th century when the [00:28:00] mystery novels were taking off.

And so this idea of the mystery being solved by an amateur sleuth who is often a woman and it's being solved using instinct and intellect because they don't have access to all of the traditional structures of power that you would use to solve a mystery, I thought was really interesting.

And that very much feels like it aligns with Daphne and with history lessons. , The other thing is , there was one of the articles that we read where it was talking about how, , since Cozy Mysteries are mainly women protagonists,, and also marketed mainly to women, , that in a similar way to romance being one of the more diverse genres, obviously none of the book industry is actually that diverse, right?

, But relative to some other genres, romance is more diverse. But in a similar way, the cozy mystery genre is more diverse because, , it's marketed to women and women want to see themselves represented. And if you're marketing to a bunch of different women, you [00:29:00] wanna have a bunch of different types of women protagonists.

And so it's responding to that market pressure. It actually ends up being a little bit more inclusive of a sub-genre., 

Zoe: I think that's right. I think also, at least in the world of crime fiction, , because I'm also part of a group called Crime Writers of Color, which is. A really great community that supports, you know, crime writers of color. , And this group's been around, I think, at least since 2014, if not before, then I'm now, , forgetting , the correct date.

, but I think in a lot of ways that,, that's right. From my perspective, there is a way that I'm jealous of the romance world because it. Does seem more diverse than the crime fiction world still. I think every year a handful of crime fiction books by black women novelists that come out as opposed to in romance.

At this point, it's like, I don't know how many are coming out by black women novelist. . Yeah. , And so I think there's also sometimes this perception of crime fiction as like very male. I think Elizabeth, you're right, I can totally [00:30:00] see cozy mysteries coming about because of this kind of perception , of where can women actually, , solve CRI crimes and pursue justice, so to speak.

, The perception still is that , a lot of crime fiction is, you know, white male action heroes, solving crimes or oftentimes , the kind of grizzled a. Detective who has an ex-wife that he's on bad terms with occasionally.

You know,, those are also kinds of tropes that I think , come to mind for a lot of people, , about crime fiction. And so finding other kinds of stories, , and voices. I mean, that was just not really the preoccupation of the crime fiction world and the publishing industry, , for a really 

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: I would say.

Martha: Yeah, , it's so interesting how the market pressure is such a double-edged sword in the industry. But it's also encouraging to see people are voting with their dollars, so to speak, and they are kind of bored of the same old, same old. So hopefully the genre [00:31:00] will just continue to grow and change in that way and just be much more interesting.

Zoe: You, there was a conversation a couple years ago, I think during the pandemic days when we were all meeting on Zoom, , and there was a conversation with an editor. Named, , Terry Bischoff, , who I think is editing it, Crooked Lane books, but she had this really fantastic observation about this question, about the diversity of crime fiction and how things were changing.

And I mean, really Martha is what you're saying, that, not only are people bored, , so to speak of previous stories, but she pointed out something really interesting and really helpful. Full, which is that the YA space for ya Literature has been diverse for a really long time and it's been way better at this stuff for a really long time in terms of, , queer voices and voices of color, et cetera.

And as that generation is aging, they're going to expect the same things. From adult fiction as well. , And that was really kind of surprising to be like, they're the ones who in some ways are saying [00:32:00] right, that they're like, but wait a minute. We're used to this now. Why would we want it any other way? , So that also kind of really gave me hope in a lot of ways.

Martha: I 

Liz: The kids are gonna save us

Martha: Yep.

Zoe: They kind of,

Liz: maybe.

Zoe: when they're not driving us crazy. Yes.

Martha: Well, uh, Zoe, we already kind of talked about what you like to read when we went over what you're reading, but tell us a little more maybe about what you generally gravitate toward and just your reading life.

Zoe: Oh yeah. , Ooh. So the funny thing is, I don't know, Elizabeth, , how you feel about it as a writer. The thing that's tricky for me is that when I am writing myself. Self, I have learned I can't read certain books or I'm gonna freak out. , meaning that unfortunately, I end up kind of, , scaling back on mystery reading while I'm writing my own mystery because , I think it makes me insecure, , and a little afraid to write, , which I don't need and I don't want, so I tend to go for fantasy.

, 'Cause it's so different. I love Eina Max. [00:33:00] Swell ocean's, echo and winter's orbit. They're both fantasy slash queer romance. If you're looking for books, writing is fantastic. PS is great, audiobook is great. , The actual physical copy is great. , So I tend to actually scale back on mysteries while I'm writing , my own mysteries.

Liz: I really appreciate you, , saying that that's why you don't read mysteries. I feel like I often will listen to interviews with authors and they'll say that answer, but they'll say it because they're like, well, I don't want that author's voice to infiltrate my writing and I'm not saying that they're lying, , maybe they really feel that way, but whenever I hear that, I'm like, I wish that the author's voice would

Zoe: I know, right? I'm like, please.

Liz: if if that actually happened where I could just like read someone who I really admire and all of a sudden I would write like them, , sign me up. What actually happens is that I can't read a book that's too similar to the one that I'm trying to write because then I'll just be like, what the fuck is the point of what I'm doing?

I can never write like this person.[00:34:00] 

Martha: And you're just

Zoe: Oh yeah. Like it's over. It's over. Uh, no. I had a huge meltdown . This wasn't mystery, but when I first started, , with soho revising in earnest history lessons, I was reading Barbara King Solver's Demon Copperhead. And I, distinctly remember texting my mentor Elizabeth Little and being like, oh my God, I can't write, I'm never gonna be as good as, and, and she was like, Zoe put that book down.

Put it down right now. Are you comparing yourself to Barbara King suer, like what? Doing what is wrong with you? You know, I mean.

Liz: Not only Barbara Kings, but the polished, finished version of Barbara King Salvos. Like what? Like 10th

book. And this is your debut

Martha: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Right. Right, right, right. So Liz was like, put that book down, like put it down right now. You know? Because , , I'm trying to figure out how to write from a place that's not a place of fear, you know?

, And to really get back to. Those early kinds of feelings of joy writing when you didn't know any better [00:35:00] and it was just fun, , I think I've learned I have to be careful or otherwise I can get really in my head about like, this is trash. You know, that kind

Martha: Yeah, that makes sense. What about your reading as a kid? Do you remember what you used to like as a kid?

Zoe: Oh man. Okay. And then also I'm gonna ask the same question to you all I had, oh, I had so many hits. I was obsessed with Roald Dahl. I stayed obsessed with Roald Dahl, like everything Roald Dahll ever wrote. I was like, yes. Give that to me immediately. Hands down, my favorite, , books to read as a child.

, And then what else was I really into? I was on a huge Anne of Green Gables kick and went through a lot of those, , books as well, making it to, one of her daughters I think has a book I, I was getting there. I had reached that

Liz: It goes really deep into

her life. Yeah.

Zoe: Yes. Yes.

, And all I remember loving them as well as the TV show. I dunno if you saw like the original, I'm probably dating myself is it possible to find it online? I don't know,

Liz: I found the entire box set a [00:36:00] few years ago and bought

Zoe: Okay. I mean, I'm talking about TV show.

I should, I need to get back to books. But the other thing that makes me think about this is when the chips are down, I go back and rewatch, , the Colin Firth for Pride and Prejudice because of course, that stays in rotation in my house, what did you all read? 

Liz: During the mystery episode, we talked about the box car children. Did you read the 

Zoe: Yes, I did read some of the box card children books. Yes.

Liz: , Which I didn't remember were mysteries, but Martha remembered, that they were and reminded

me. , But the other thing that I read when I was like fourth grade, fifth grade, I loved Nancy Drew.

Did you read Nancy Drew?

Zoe: I did 

not, 

Liz: , It's a little bit old for us. , I don't really remember why I got into it. I think maybe , we went and visited grandma at one point, Martha, and grandma had some Nancy Drew in her house and I started, but shock and horror. Did you know that a man wrote the Nancy Drew books under a

pseudonym? 

Zoe: That's offensive.

That's 

Liz: know

Zoe: I will not be accepting that. I will be suing.

Liz: research, when I was researching the mystery episode, I [00:37:00] found out that the same man wrote Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, but under a pseudonym for

each of them. 

Zoe: know the author was the same, but I didn't think it was a man.

Liz: man.

Zoe: Well, that's, that's, we, like, like I said, somebody needs to

Liz: Yeah, I 

Zoe: know, ACL U, 

Liz: a complaint to make. Yeah. There are 

Zoe: We have many complaints to make. Yes, yes. Oh, wow. Martha, what did

Martha: Oh, well , the Brook Bank household was also a very big Roald Dahl family. So we read a lot of Matilda, BFG, fantastic. Mr. Fox, all of 

Liz: James and the giant

Martha: Yes, James and the giant peach. But later, when I was actually reading like middle grade, we've talked about this a lot on the podcast. I was kind of always a fantasy girly, like the secrets of Nim Chronicles, of Narnia, Philip Pullman, the Golden Compass Subtle Knife, , Amber Spyglass novels.

All of that was kind of what intrigued me from the get go. Mm-hmm.

Zoe: that's really cool. 

Liz: So I know because I have an unfair advantage that you are [00:38:00] working on the second mystery in your, in your Daphne Overture series. , I got to read act one and I can't wait for more.

Are you okay talking about that 

Zoe: yeah. Happy to talk about book two.

Liz: , So tell us a little bit about Book two and also what's your writing process like for book two?

Zoe: Book two is about, , Daphne solving a mystery involving her former student who has passed away. , And she's trying to figure out what happened to her. , For the sake of vagueness, I will say that it comes down to a couple cold cases. , One involving 1940s France, , and another one involving 1990s Milwaukee.

And as for the writing process for this one, , when I'm not. Banging my head against a wall and crying and saying, why did I do this to myself? , 

I try to write every day between six and eight in the morning is what I've been doing lately. And then I get up and then I take my dog for a [00:39:00] walk, et cetera, and then I have to turn over to my day job. , And really it's been plotting things out. This is the thing that's so hard about writing, it's really only when you reach the end that you can know what you've done and what needs to change and what actually stays and what goes.

, So I reached the end and was like, oh, , I really need to change around things in Act two and in act one, , in particular. But I think ideally I'm about to give it to my editor. Actually, I think I've got another week or two and then I'm gonna give it to her. 

Martha: Awesome. Congrats.

Liz: Congratulations.

Zoe: Thanks. Let's just hope she doesn't hate it and wanna burn it to the ground. And that, , I don't have to start over entirely.

Martha: Does Daphne have a little more romance in this book?

Zoe: Oh, yes, she does. , let's see if it stays that way, what my editor thinks. But , it's a somewhat more rocky, bumpy, pathhead. I know. Gasp, shock, some drama, , , but it's all hopefully good and I think everything works out in the [00:40:00] end. I really would like it too.

Martha: Awesome. Sounds great. , 

Liz: What do you think is your favorite part about writing? The most rewarding part?

Zoe: For me, I think I love with writing the, , act of discovery, , that your brain. Is truly marvelous at imagining and finding all kinds of things if you can just be quiet enough to listen to it. What's bringing me joy , is really I think taking some time, slowing down for some of the details and for some of the little tiny observations that can end up really, being these delicious delightful gold threads that get woven through the manuscript.

Martha: I love that. It's like the little glimmers of life. Yeah. That's awesome. What advice would you give aspiring writers?

Zoe: Woo. [00:41:00] Don't do it. No, I don't mean that. , Actually the opposite, , keep going, right? , Keep going, keep going, keep going. I've definitely learned this now, , at this point in the journey, there really is unfortunately no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. , Meaning that, , you have to keep going because. External validation is only going to get you so far in this business, and at some point you really have to get back to what you're doing for yourself. , At every step in the way you're convinced is going to get better if or it's going to get better when, , only to discover that the goalpost has shifted.

, The requirements for being considered a success have changed. , And so it really becomes essential to figure out for yourself what is meaningful about this. , And for me, that's going to come down to , every chance I have to sit down [00:42:00] in the quietness of my morning and. Try to write.

Because , there's a way that if you really hang your self-esteem or, confidence if you hang that on, a certain kind of marker, you're going to find yourself disappointed by the end of it.

Martha: Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Liz: That's very good

advice. Thank you so much again for joining us. How can our listeners find you and your books?

Zoe: Oh, great. You can find my books wherever books are sold. , They're also an audiobook, which is great. I , really love the reader for it. , So you can find my books that way. As well as . At ZB Walbrook on Instagram.

Martha: Perfect. Thank you so much, Zoey.

Zoe: Thank you so much for having me. 

Martha: If you want even more bookish content, follow us on Instagram and TikTok at all books allowed Pod if you've enjoyed listening to [00:43:00] our podcast, leave us a rating and review because it helps other people find us and read on my friends.

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