Natural Products Marketer Podcast
Expert Marketing Advice to Help you Grow Your Business, Reach More People & Change More Lives.
Natural Products Marketer Podcast
Choose Trust Over Trends: Building Natural Retail That Lasts with Liza Docken
Aromatherapy can be more than a pretty scent—it can be a reliable wellness tool and a powerful retail differentiator. We sat down with Pranarōm’s national educator, Liza Dawkins, to unpack how safety, sourcing, and smart training turn essential oils into solutions customers can trust. From countering social media hype to using batch testing and Certificates of Analysis, we share practical steps to elevate credibility without slipping into fear or elitism.
We explore the tug‑of‑war between online convenience and in‑store experience, then show how to win on both fronts. Teach your team to ask outcome‑based questions and offer cross‑department solutions that pair aromatherapy with herbs, supplements, and grocery staples. Learn why diffusion still counts as systemic exposure, how oxidation undermines safety, and when a smaller bottle is actually the better buy. You’ll hear specific ways to position therapeutic blends next to sinus, stress, and sleep sets, and how to use subtle, high‑quality scent to anchor memory and comfort inside your store.
Seasonal marketing comes alive here: meet customers where they are with timely content and micro‑workshops that translate to real‑world results. We also talk transparency—organic standards, constituent profiles, ethical sourcing—and how to honor local makers who do the work even if they can’t afford every seal. If you want to build trust over trends, keep your staff longer, and create a store that people choose for guidance as much as goods, this conversation gives you tactics to start tomorrow.
Enjoyed this conversation? Follow, rate, and share the show so more natural retailers can build smarter, safer, and more connected communities. Got a question or a challenge we should tackle next? Email us at info@naturalproductsmarketer.com.
Connect with us:
Email: info@naturalproductsmarketer.com
About Tina Maddock
Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.
Because education is always the key. I think things work better in stores if if the staff is educated. Um, but then there's the trickiness, right? Because I think the other thing is that when stores are wanting to have me come in and educate, it's because the turnover seems to be pretty high on the retail side. And that's tricky too, because how do we how do we enhance retention?
Tina Maddock:Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer Podcast. I'm your host, Tina Matdock. On this podcast, you'll hear from manufacturers, retail owners and operators, and other business experts that will help you grow your business so you can serve more people and change more lives. So, of course, thank you for being here. And I would love for you to just take a moment and introduce yourself and talk about how you got into natural products.
Liza Docken:Yeah, thanks. Um, I'm Liza Dawkins, and I'm the national educator at Pronaroom. We are an organic aromatherapy brand. And my journey to the natural products world is sort of through my hippie dad, who, you know, I remember him bringing me my first natural deodorant stick and being like, you should maybe try this. So this was in my teens, and there was a health food store in our neighborhood. So this was back in the 90s, and um I had, you know, had done all my things and I had been working other places. And then I moved to Norway to go to art school. And on my return, I needed a job. And it was me walking past the health food store that my dad had always taken me to, and they had a help wanted sign. And I was like, well, let's just see. And they hired me on the spot, and then I've been in the industry basically ever since, a little bit off and on in my um early 30s, but it's just sort of like a kiss mit moment. So um that's really where my journey began. And so I worked on the retail side actually for about 20 years and then um came to Pronorum after that. So the bulk of my experience in this industry is on the retail side. I managed and you know did all those kinds of things. I was a buyer, but um yeah, now I'm really happy because education is I love to learn and I love to share what I learn.
Tina Maddock:So how long were you in Norway? I'm so curious.
Liza Docken:Oh, so that was a year. Um, let's see. Yeah, it was a year. So they have these folk high schools, and that means that between high school and university, you get three years to try these schools that are a year-long program. And that means that you can try something before you get into university and make your big decision as to what you might study. They also have mandatory um military service, but in and amongst all of that, you can go to these folk high schools, and they're, you know, mine was an art track, um, but at my school, there were circus tracks and horse training tracks. So it was like this very cool amalgamation of three different things that really, if you think about it, could actually all be intertwined. But yeah, they have them all over the country. And um, my grandparents were first generation um here Norwegians, and so my dad had gone to a folk high school, and so then I went. I don't think my daughter's gonna go, but uh, it's a really beautiful way to a take a gap here, but to really feel out like we should be doing that here. It's such a beautiful idea to have that opportunity to feel out, like you can do automechanic. I would love to go be an auto mechanic, so this is why I always give this example, but you can go and learn anything, it seems, um, for a year and see how you like it. And so then they don't waste their education in the way I feel some people do.
Tina Maddock:Well, also, I mean, I never think that education or learning is a waste, and we will get back on track, everyone, in a moment. But um, I am watching some young people, whether they're between high school and college right now or college and careers. And there is this sense because things are so expensive to get education here right now, that if you pick a thing, then that's the thing you have to do. And I love that idea of just a little bit of experimentation and realizing that, I mean, even your natural products journey, mine as well. I didn't start out or go to college for this or or say this was what I wanted to do with my life. You kind of find your way into your place. And so it's nice if you can experiment a little bit and it's not like high stakes. Right. Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I we maybe we should do some of that with the natural products industry and offer young people the opportunity to come into retail or to get some education around that. That would be very cool. Uh, Sinpa, if you're listening, I'm on board. Yeah, I'll support it. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, tell us a little bit about you presented at Soho. It's one of the reasons that I contacted you to see if you would be on the podcast because you were there on the ground where there were plenty of manufacturers and plenty of retailers. And so I'm just curious, like, what were you hearing while you were there? Things that people are afraid of, challenges, or things that people are excited about.
Liza Docken:I think um, in terms of retail in a broad sense, I think there's obviously some struggle with online versus in in-store. And you know, I'm I'm pretty old school and I really love being in a place and hands-on, interacting with a human being. But I also totally understand the desire for the convenience of being able to shop online. And so, how do we how do we survive on both sides? You know, how can we make it work for everyone? And I think that's one of the main things that I heard a lot of. Um, but there was also a lot of enthusiasm, you know, specific to what I know in this industry in terms of aromatherapy. There is a lot of interest in broadening our horizons in terms of how we use at least essential oils, right? There's usually, you know, people understand an oil to be good for this or for that. And really, when we can broaden that and see where an essential oil can be applied outside of those quintessential or usual applications, um, I think that's fun. And so, of course, as an educator, my passion is to educate. My passion is to like learn how we can spread that, because education is always the key. I think things work better in stores if if the staff is educated. Um, but then there's the trickiness, right? Because I think the other thing is that when stores are wanting to have me come in and educate, it's because the turnover seems to be pretty high on the retail side. And that's tricky too, because how do we how do we enhance retention? Um, I think retention supports sales. So being able to see that in a bigger picture, um, you know, I think it can start with at least somewhat the education piece. Of course, workplace culture is great, but I can't influence that. But you know, um, so retailers, you know, and I'm thankful that there's good and and sort of difficult moments. Um, because if there weren't any good, then what would we be doing here? Um so I heard a lot about those two things in particular, just in terms of how can we how can we better support the store, but then better support the customers via that support in the store.
Tina Maddock:Yeah, and you know, I do think that the more education opportunities that you give people, whether it's about products, how to sell, how to interact with people, or just leadership training, does make your store a little bit more sticky for your customers. I mean, for your employees. And when your employees are sticky and they start to behave in line with your values, um, then it makes your customers more sticky to your store. So some of those things, it's hard because we do have transient um employees right now. It's a little bit different than it's been before. Staffing's always been a problem. This is not a new thing. It's always been um sort of a wrestling match, but this looks a little bit different than it used to. People are in and out and they don't mind leaving faster than normal. And also, there are a lot of people that are like, wait a minute, I have the opportunity to work from my house, or I get more flexible hours when I do things like this. So I do think there's an opportunity for stores to be really curious about how do we get flexible enough for these employees to want to stick around. But also, what are the things we can offer that somewhere else is not going to offer them? Education, leadership experience, and opportunities, opportunities to get out there and do some of the things that we always talk about. So some of these marketing tactics, if you invite some of your employees in to participate in those and even drive them, especially if you're not doing them right now, perfect opportunity to give someone a chance to do something that's not necessarily on the floor or stocking shelves or whatever it is. You might invite them into a more creative opportunity. So yeah, I agree that that this is a real thing to look at. Like, how do we become attractive to um to for people to stay working with us? But I think that translates to how do we become attractive for the customers? And one of the things that you were talking about is this sense of you like to get out there with the people and shop sometimes just for the experience of having another human being to talk to. And um, yeah, online offers a convenience, but if you have things that are exciting or an exciting reason to come to the store, there's a demonstration, there's a workshop, there's some community event that's being held at your store, people are more likely to come more often and feel like they've got a little bit of a community happening. Yeah. Um but tell us a little bit more about, you know, essential oils online competition. We talked about this a little bit when you and I were having a discussion before. And I find it really interesting that essential oils, especially, um, have a lot of influencers and MLMs that are out there. And you guys are offering a little bit of a different experience, and there are things that are important to you that are values that you hold that might be a differentiator in stores.
Liza Docken:Yeah, I think, oh man, I have I have to find a good balance here because I have strong opinions about it. But I my concern when it comes to you know the sort of onslaught of options online, and then when you also get into the MLMs, there's a lot of focus there on informing for sales versus what I really focused toward, and that's educating for safety. And so the difference between education for safety and informing for sales is obvious already, but it will incline people to overstate, um, enhance the abilities. You know, social media is really interesting because it definitely, when there are trends online, we see our sales spike in certain products based on what's happening out there. And there's a lot of dangerous information circling in those moments because they'll just decide that an oil is suddenly the heel all, cure all magic potion. Yeah. And they are profoundly supportive for our health, but you really need to know what you're doing, how you're using them, um, you know, without even touching on that internal versus external application or usage, you still have to be incredibly careful when it comes to using essential oils. So online is great and very little that can be said. You can't really interact with the customer. You can make infographics, but even with those, you have to stay really general, more so than you even would in person for Dé compliance, it seems, with a lot of online retailers. So it's um it's this tricky place. And so I try to get on social media, you know, at least once a week just to educate on some element, um, just to try to, again, to balance out what's out there, because there's a lot of not necessarily misinformation, but yes, sometimes, and then sometimes just not enough information so that they don't understand how to use it once they buy it. And then they're just left to their own devices. And unfortunately, in this country, if a little bit is good, then we think a lot is better, and that is so the opposite of true with essential oils in particular. So we have to be so careful. Um, but I think that you know, we're finding ways. I mean, we as in a uh market, like, you know, a lot of retailers are starting to have their online stores. Um, and so I'm seeing where they can maybe they post a video and it's one of their staff members and it's sharing, hey, I we have this new product, and here's how you use it, and come into the store and we'll help support you if you want more information. I think that's a really great tactic because it it initially gives information but invites them in. Um, and I think when a customer knows that they can go in and get more um information, then they're more likely to do that than if they were gonna try and do their online shopping with the same store.
Tina Maddock:So Yeah. You know, one of the things that brings up for me is you you can remix a lot of social media um things these days and giving attribution to the original producer or whatever. But um I I think you can attract a lot of people by going further on explanations, like here's what you've been hearing, and you can even show like what has been said by someone else. And here's what I'd like for you to know don't forget that you need this, that, and the other, or this is the best way to use this in that case, and or um have a you know, not um not overdoing it in certain areas. The the I was talking to a store um owner the other day, and he was like, I'm the anti-TikTok guy because I'm constantly going on and saying, you might have heard this on TikTok. Let me help.
unknown:Yeah.
Tina Maddock:Here's maybe why we don't even carry that product, which is great. I mean, I think you can get a lot of respect from your consumers that way, but also you can go further in explaining how to use things or making sure that things are safe. And I think that will garner a lot of um social media following. But again, it just gives you gives trust to your store, especially if it's not around I'm trying to get you to buy more of this. I'm actually telling you, maybe it's not always the right product for you, but come by and we can talk to you about what might be.
Liza Docken:Well, absolutely. I mean, the first example that typically pops into my head is you know, this sort of aura around frankincense. And yes, is it wonderful? It's a lovely oil and it's dear to my heart. And the way many people use it, you know, I can think of three examples that would be better substitutions depending on the application. Um and that gets tricky because people don't want to hear that. They they're, you know, they're they get tenacious. They're like, no, no, no, it's frankincense or nothing in this one example. And it's like, I understand. And let's think about the plant, let's think about your body, let's think about the you know, the need. Um, yeah, it I could go on and on about that, but I'll I'll stop there. But it's it is a very interesting influence. Um, that obviously back in the day when I was in retail, we did not have that at all. It was really driven by the community. So um, I mean, I remember when um I live in Minneapolis and the Somali community has been growing quite a bit since the 90s um from refugees and things like that. And with the higher population of Somali people, we had more drive for black seed oil. Oh, and like that goosebumps a little bit because we weren't really talking about it. We weren't thinking about it, and now it's everywhere and everyone knows about it. But that was really driven, you know, by that. And those kinds of influences in retail, I think, are really cool and interesting. Um, it's not to say that social media is all bad, but it tends to be, you know, so sensational and so over the top that it doesn't always serve us, you know, as in terms of our health and wellness.
unknown:Yeah.
Tina Maddock:So if I'm just thinking from a marketing perspective, like what might that mean to me? Let's take fragrance frankincense, for example, and you could go on to social media and be like, five reasons frankincense might not be the right oil for you. Right. Yeah. Which is great because then you become the consultant, yeah. Versus just the place I buy a thing, because we all know that if you're that, you're very not sticky. It's going to be price-driven that people are coming to you versus being the consultant, which again goes back to education. Like you have to know your craft in order to be a good consultant on the floor. But those are great opportunities to just have a quick little reel. And people start to trust you more the more that you talk about things like that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So talk to me a little bit about some. Uh, here's what I see and hear with essential oils sometimes. Um, they're they can be price-driven because people don't understand the differences between the different producers of essential oils or the sourcing background. Um, so walk me through a little bit of that when a customer group, like your entire customer group, is is walking toward that lower priced item in the store. What should we be doing to educate people? Or how do we become competitive against it's always the lower priced item?
Liza Docken:Yeah, this is a great question because I think about this a lot in terms of, you know, having been in retail, understanding that, you know, it's good to offer a range of pricing. And um what I think needs to be more widespread is the knowledge that essential oils, I call them the wild west of the wellness world still. Because it's one of those things where you can find oils that say pure or say natural or might even claim a therapeutic grade. There's no certification or certifying body that can back that up. And so you could have a synthetic oil, not naturally derived, or partially naturally derived and partially synthetic, but any amount of synthetic immediately is gonna throw off the endocrine system. So not a good idea, but they can still say pure because no one's gonna check to see. And so um, I think that when we don't have supporting documents for an oil, we should be very wary of using it. So, what I mean by that is as the example, pranorum, we offer a certificate of analysis on every single batch of every single essential oil. So if people are curious about it, the certification goes through, lists every single constituent present there, um, shows its organic certification, shows its Latin binomial, you know, and this testing isn't it's like it's not we're doing that. Um, they get tested before we get them to ensure that we're actually getting what we want because the way we recommend using essential oils, we absolutely have to have that information. And so that's the other piece, too, is you know, when it comes to educating on how to use oils, um, I have to be very clear when I talk about oils that what I'm sharing is based specifically on the oils Pranaroom offers because I don't know what other brands are doing. I don't work there, I don't see their sourcing, I don't see if they're manipulating by mixing lavenders or synthesizing um, you know, the amount of lavender essential oil that is sold in the market far exceeds what this planet can grow. And so we have to be clear that, like, okay, how do we ensure that what we're buying is in fact from you know, plant material, first of all, and ideally organic plant material. Um, and so I get a little bit warm when I talk about this because it's really important because it I get it, you know, and one of the things I hear a lot in terms of buying the less expensive or even saying I don't need an organic essential oil is when people say it's because I'm diffusing. So I'm not using it internally or topically. And so I as gently and thoughtfully as I can inform them that you're still consuming it to some degree. You're breathing it in, it's being absorbed by your lungs. The lung tissue is taking in scent molecules are in the air, right? All scent is particulate, which is fascinating and kind of creepy all at the same time. But that's why certain essential oils aren't great in diffusers or at certain levels. But if you were to do a blood test with someone who's been diffusing for a half an hour, you would find transit levels of that essential oil in their blood. So it's not nothing to diffuse, and a lot of people diffuse all day every day, which would be kind of wild. So that's an important piece to remember too, and that the amount of essential oil we need isn't that much, and so buying these massive bottles isn't necessary, we don't need to always be buying these huge value-sized bottles. Oftentimes, we only need a small amount, you know, and then I start thinking about like what is the shelf life of an essential oil once it's opened. It varies greatly depending on what type of oil you're using. So chances are your oil is oxidized. I know so many people who have bottles and bottles of essential oils in their closet or cupboard, they've had them for years, they're likely oxidized, so then you're not using them for anything but cleaning because once oxidized, you're not diffusing, you're not using topically, you're sure, you're not taking them internally. So there's there's so many ways in which um you know we can share information. Another example in terms of you know, why do we want to invest in an essential oil? If you think about lavender is the panacea, so it's the most popular essential oil, it takes 2,000 pounds of lavender flowering tubs, that's the weight of an adult bison, to make one gallon of essential oil.
Tina Maddock:Oh my goodness.
Liza Docken:And that's staggering when you think about the land mass required to grow the plant material for a small amount of liquid. And I think then we start to see why you would want to invest to make sure that you are getting the type of lavender you're looking for. You then want to invest in an organic oil because you're getting concentrated chemicals, otherwise, that have been sprayed on the plant material. And so you're there's it's layered, it's so layered. Um and so the ways to support stores would be pick the element that makes the most sense to you, and then start there. And if you know you build on that, um, because if I say here's all the reasons why, it's overwhelming, but take the example that makes the most sense to you and then help your customers understand that because if the responsibility starts with the pronoun, for example, for ethical forcing, then it's in our recommended usage, but the responsibility is also on the consumer not to use a whole bottle in a day because that would be wild, right? It's unsafe, it's not worth, it's not respecting the plant material. So that's those are the things that pop into my mind first.
Tina Maddock:Yeah, I think so. While you're talking, one of the things I was thinking about is when you talk about diffusing things into the air and they're actually making them into your lungs and bloodstream. Um, I feel like this conversation is probably easier to have with consumers than maybe five years ago or 10 years ago because we are constantly talking about microplastics and how we're inhaling them now. So I feel like that opens just the fact that people are getting more educated about the inhalation of certain materials and how that's changing our health. I feel like there's an opportunity to sort of piggyback on the fact that that's a popular topic and you can now have a conversation that's very educational around essential oils. Um, so I do feel like following trends in the health community and then finding a way, like how then is another topic relevant to this conversation that's happening is a great way to have an entry point to have a conversation with a consumer online, especially because this topic is trending, but also in the store, and then you can make some draw some parallels from some of these conversations.
Liza Docken:Yeah. I mean, I I think too about the uh home scent industry and what toxins are being released by some of those, you know, the pieces that you can plug in or do something else with that then release these scents. I mean, there are studies out there already that show the toxicity of those ingredients, and then you're sharing them in the air, and then you have what do you have pets? Do you have children? I mean, what are we what are we exposing ourselves to without knowing or without doing the research? And then I think that's you know, that starts the spectrum of quality um when it comes to aromatics.
Tina Maddock:Yeah. And I do also think that um, well, first talking to the consumer a little bit more about um what they don't understand about regulation or not regulation in this industry. That can cover the entire store. Um, and you know, what's on the label? Is that what's in the bottle? Has it been tested? Are there heavy metals? Is this organic? Is it synthetic versus organic materials? This can apply across, it's not just for essential oils. These are conversations that feel important to continue having over and over again because it is a differentiator. If you, and and I do think most of the natural product stores are this, the watchtower of what we are offering for people to put into their bodies, on their bodies, um, and around their bodies. And you become the source to be like, okay, well, is this okay? Is this not okay? Tell me more. What do I not know about an ingredient, a product, and anything? And so I think this conversation around essential oils is store-wide. You could do this all over the place and talk about those different things. And sourcing keeps coming up. Like, how do you source the product that's in the bottle? And how do you know that what's on the labels in the bottle? So tell me more about that. What are the conversations that you feel like retailers should and can be having around those topics?
Liza Docken:Yeah, I think that I mean, again, how does a company back up what they're selling? How does, you know, how do you find confidence in a product to then offer to your customer? Um and so the you know, certifications I mean, I I I'm I'm conflicted here too, because I love the idea of someone telling me something and shaking my hand and making eye contact and me believing that that is what is true. And um and yet um having these certifications is great because the system the system isn't gonna support that, right? They're gonna they're gonna find ways to navigate that. So I think I think the key is to have that conversation without it becoming smug, without it becoming elitist. Um I think really at the heart, you know, there is that element where you have that sort of divide between. Between a natural products, you know, store, co-op, whatever it might be, and then you know, a conventional store. And I don't want them to be separate. I think there's space for all of it. And so to not make it seem like, well, you don't know what you're doing, you should be doing this. It's sharing the information with them in a way that do you know what it means to have a certified essential oil? Do you know what it means to have a certified herbal tincture or whatever it might be? How does that enhance your experience of taking the product? Because I think I what I love so much is I've always loved this about the natural product industry, where as a retailer, I was offering a natural alternative to something that would have side effects, might have ingredients that weren't supporting your health, even though the product's meant to support the health. So um so you want that natural alternative, and then you want how do I back that up? How do I support you, you being customer, me being retail? How do I do that? Well, I choose brands that give me that information. And then then again, I also understand that there are a lot of people trying to do a really good thing in terms of what they're offering as, you know, products and can't afford certification, can't afford all the testing. So how do we how do we fit them in? And then, in my opinion, it needs to be more local. It needs to be someone that you do have interactions with. You can go to their farm or to their facilities or to whatever it might be. And that's your own certification, right? So as an employee, you say, I've been there, I've seen it, I trust it. Um, but at the end of the day, you know, we're we're still we're still individuals. We still have different biochemistries. We all are going to respond differently to different products. Doesn't matter. Much of this doesn't matter if the product doesn't sit with you and say, yeah, this feels like it's nourishing me or supporting me. So the certifications are great, but I think I think as a former retailer, there was no better sort of certification than if I'd tried it and said, hey, here's how this worked for me. I would I would recommend this to you. Um but again, I really do think that it's about not, I would like less separation. I would like less, less, we're better than you, we're better than them. That's not my energy at all. Um I want I want a world in which we're all doing the best that we can and we're all understanding why that's important.
Tina Maddock:Yeah. So a few things come up for me while you're having this conversation. One is sort of a fear-based tactic, like um talking about this from a place of fear, like you need to be afraid if the following doesn't happen, versus framing it up as something like, here are all the reasons that we love this. We love that we know this is sourced this way, or it's third-party tested, or we visited this farm. And that's also the other thing I was thinking about as you're talking about this, the affordability of some of these certifications, like USDA organic. Um, these small local farms can do everything according to the right standards and more, but but affording the um certification of that and the the entire process and red tape is just not something that's um available to them in order to have competitive pricing and that sort of thing. So I see a lot of like locally grown um or that would normally be organic if if you knew what all was going on in the farm, but they're just not ready to shell out the money that it takes to get the certification. And you're right. I think it's hey, this local farm provided this, and we know they use this kind of feed, and we feel really comfortable with the practices around animals and things that they do. So um, I think there's room for all, like you're saying, and that the education is really around um here, just look for these things. It doesn't have to be be afraid, it, but it is hey, look, look for these things because this starts to tell me that these people are aligned with what you're looking for.
Liza Docken:Yes. And there's that piece around what outcome are you looking for here? That sort of nudges them to maybe do a little more research or search inside themselves, which I think is so important when we're doing anything around our health and wellness. But what is it about this that you need? Um, and if we understand what your desired outcome is, then it's even easier to recommend what thing might support that outcome.
Tina Maddock:Um, that's why one of my favorite questions to um when I when I talk to some of these retailers, I'm asking their floor teams, like, how are you greeting people when they come in the door? And most of them are very friendly and they're like, hey, we're so happy you're here today, or hey, welcome to the store. And it kind of stops there many times. And this is about sales, but it's also about getting people to the right um products and and services that they need. But just asking that question, what brought you into the store today? What are you looking to solve? What outcome are you looking for? That's another way to say sort of the same thing that can then guide how you guide someone else, which will ultimately, the moment that you start helping people reach their goals or solve their problem, ultimately that's gonna lead to more sales. And so it's just a really great practice to start that relationship in that way. Like, why, why are you here and what are you trying to accomplish being here? And let me help you find the right thing that you're looking for.
Liza Docken:Yeah. Yeah. I at when I was in retail, I had um I had a training with Catherine from Wishgarden Herbs, and I remember her telling me that the produce section is like your best source, right? For medicine. And I'm thinking about it in terms of like, that's your foundation. And then how do you build on that, right? And the wellness department comes after that. So you start with that foundation. Um, because at the end of the day, oftentimes what you're getting in the wellness department is some element of what's available in the produce section in a different form. And so I don't know. I mean, I think about it, you know, I'm getting a little whimsical now, but it's very much that like what's the biggest picture? And so again, when you ask someone what's your desired outcome, you're able to then say, well, let's look at this spectrum. So someone would, I remember a customer came in and, you know, he was having digestive issues. So I recommended a product from the wellness department, a product from produce, and a product from the cooler. And he came back the next day and gave me this huge hug because he felt better, you know. And so there are ways to incorporate all things. And I think that that's important to remember too in retail, because we can get stuck in like I only recommend herbs, I only recommend vitamins, I only recommend essential oils, I only recommend, you know what. But to get that broader image going too, I think is just helps get at all of those pieces.
Tina Maddock:Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about now that we're into this retail sales, helping customers conversation. Um, you mentioned earlier in the podcast, and I did want to loop back around to it, that um there's a way of thinking outside the box for essential oils. Like, what are the main reasons that someone gets and uses an essential oil? And then let's move next into okay, what's outside more outside of the box, or what are there things that people and consumers and the people on the floor are just not thinking about they could use essential oils to do?
Liza Docken:I would say it's obviously aromatherapy starts with aromatics. Um, people are looking for something to put in their diffuser, or maybe they like to put a drop of essential oil on the shower floor, and that steams up for them while they're showering personal care products. It's really around, it starts around that aromatic piece. And, you know, when we talk about aromatherapy as a practice, we're most familiar in this country with the English model of aromatherapy, which is choosing oils for the aromatics and then using them aromatically, and that's beautiful. Um, but then we obviously still are not still, but have begun and are continuing with this theme of internal use. And I think that, you know, that starts getting into the therapeutics because the aromatics of the oil are not what we're concerned about. If we're taking them internally, we're using them to support our health and wellness in a more profound way. Then you need to know what constituents are present because those constituents are the active ingredients that support us. So you have this aromatic piece, which is a beautiful practice, and we we employ that at Pronorum as well. But but then you do have that conversation of moving toward the internal use piece. And one needs to be incredibly careful going there. There have to be certain guidelines and safety measures in place in terms of what's the delivery system and how do we how do we inform our customers in a way that they stay safe. But then between those two, it's these blends that can be put together for therapeutic usage. And so what I think retailers often don't consider is that, you know, if they carry pronorome as an example and they have a customer come in to say, I'm having an allergic reaction to the pollen or to, you know, whatever it might be, or I have a cold and I'm having a hard time breathing, the likelihood of that staff bringing them to our sinus formula as an example is not as likely as them being brought to the herbal tinctures or the vitamins, you know, some supplement in there. And oftentimes there's crossover in ingredients if you look at, say, the sinus formula versus something you might find in a tincture or a supplement. And so I think that's a place where aromatherapy can grow if people are formulating with that in mind. So unfortunately, there's not a ton of formulation outside of pranerome happening in that way. I think it'll increase as time goes on. I think we're really starting to see this turn in how aromatherapy is presented and received in the retail sector. And so when we think about usage like that, that's outside the box. That's like, you know, when they you when they are brought to the aromatherapy set, they're like, oh, uh, well, I don't need something that smells good. And it's like, well, this isn't formulated to smell a certain way, it's formulated to support you in a certain way. That helps them open uh their eyes to what aromatherapy can do. Because if you think about, I mean, my most favorite little tidbit in this realm is that the bulk of essential oils that are created in the world are utilized in the food product industry, not in the wellness side. So it's flavorings for sodas and canned foods and things like that. Um, they're utilized for personal care products and go beyond that, but they really are either flavoring or aromatics and not even being used in the way we think of aromatherapy. So people are using essential oils probably daily if they don't, you know, they may not know it. So I think that that helps them see, like, oh wait, I've already, I've already got this in my life, but it's it's then in that delivery system, it's about the dilution, right? Those are the probably two most important things for people to know as they start to think outside the box in terms of aromatherapy. What do I know about this product? You know, what what kind of documentation supports this product? And then wow, I had no idea that I could use something, you know, to support my symptoms of shingles or athlete's foot or whatever it might be, we can support those symptoms with essential oils. It doesn't have to be, you know, something else. Um but that I mean, there's a lot of room for that still for growth in in that in that department. So that just to loop back to that piece around, you know, the more affordable brands. Um often they're more affordable, A, obviously, because they're not organic, but they're not being tested. And so then we can't use them the same way until we get some kind of certification around what constituents are present there. But, you know, it's a multifaceted thing. I mean, it's really interesting because I remember when I first started in the 90s in the health food store, you know, we had like one brand. Um, it looked familiar. I'm sure my mom had had that before, and it was, you know, an aromatic moment. Absolutely. I mean, it was rose geranium. I remember the carpet, the floor, yeah, the floor, the you know, the shelves on the wall. Like I know exactly where I was when that happened, and I smelled it. It was like everything opened. So it opens, and then where do we go? And and hopefully I do my job well enough that the staff knows how to support.
Tina Maddock:Yeah, those are all great. And you know, thinking about different um recipes, use cases for some of these essential oils um can also be fun for the staff, the team to dig into and do a little research for themselves as well, because they all have use cases they could have they could be using for um essential oils, among other things. And so it's always easiest if they start from, hey, I'm solving my own problem or just making my life a little bit better in these areas. And so, okay, well, maybe how could I do that with things that are right here in the store? And that leads to the ability to educate other people. Yeah. Yeah. Um, here's an interesting conversation. Um, market from a marketing perspective, there is something about scents. So you were just talking about you remember the moment that you had that smell, the rose geranium, and it probably brings out very strong memories for you because that happens with smells. Um, there's also a lot of research around what makes people feel at home, or what scents make people feel a sense of community or connected or focused or um calming and that sort of thing. And so, what's the vibe that you want to give in your store? What are your thoughts around having that aromatherapy running in the store?
Liza Docken:Well, I think it's a great idea in terms of that scent, then becomes their touchstone to your store. Because when you breathe in, you're if you're breathing in through your nose, it's coming into the limbic system of your brain, in which is housed many elements, including the part of your brain that's focusing on memory. And that's why when I smell cardamom, I'm suddenly in my grandma's kitchen baking with her. Um, we've all had that experience. And so you as a retailer, you as a store, they get to set, you know, you get to set the stage. You get to decide, like, okay, every time someone walks in, they're gonna have this smell. That's associated with support from staff, feeling better after they've started taking whatever it is they might have bought. Um, you know, I think that we get into that conversation around scent sensitivity and then people not wanting things diffuse. So I always recommend starting really subtle. You know, there's some really great ways that are very subtle, but oftentimes sense sensitivities develop because of synthetic. And so if you're diffusing something that is not guaranteed to be synthetic, that is, you know, a pure, truly, usually that's through organic or constituent-based testing, um, then you're not gonna have the issues with that type of thing. But I know some stores they just have a policy where they can't diffuse. That doesn't mean you can't still have some aromatic element. Um but yeah, I think I think that's a really great way because also, you know, there's plenty of studies showing it's like when realtors bake cookies in a home before they have an open house, right? Yeah. How do you set the stage for people to feel comfortable and not as a way to manipulate sales, but just like if you feel comfortable, you're more likely to interact with the staff. That's my situation, anyway. If I'm comfortable and feeling good in myself, I'm gonna talk to people more likely, have that conversation, and then walk away with more support. Whether I just got an education and maybe never bought anything. Um, I'm a huge proponent of education first, and then let's see how it goes from there. But um, aromatics play a huge role in supporting someone. I can tell you, I people would walk into the wellness department where I last worked, flustered, end of the day, didn't know what they came in for. They're having a moment, and I'd say, let's just let's just go over here. And we would pick up an essential oil and we'd rub a drop in our palms and cup it and bring it to our nose. You know, we'd breathe in and that would be it. And then they'd be like, Oh, you know what? I actually came in for lettuce, you know, and then they'd leave the fine, no problem. But like now they remember that they went to that store and they were supported, and then boom, you're you're you're a reliable resource. Um and I think that's all any of us are looking for. Where can I go that feels reliable? Where can I go where I feel like I trust people and what they're saying and what they're offering? I mean, it is we're in a place right now that feels a little disconnected, wacky. So, like, how do we feel a little more aligned, centered, connected? Like you said, that's a great word. I I think aromatics can support that absolutely.
Tina Maddock:Yeah, so I love that as a tool to help build relationship. So everything we talk about, I mean, marketing is all about building a relationship. And then the sales come because you have um a friend, you have a trusted ally, you have a consultant that you believe in, and again, you know is reliable. So I believe that doing using some of these, whether it's an aromatic, whether you're diffusing, or like you said, if someone comes in and they are worked up, head over to the essential oils and have a chat and um help them decompress so that they can communicate with you. It's just a tool for better connection, a better way for them to get back to themselves, like you were talking about. It does not have to be seen as I'm trying to make you buy more things or manipulate you like you were talking about. I think it's if we look at all of these as tools for connection and relationship, then I think the store ends up doing better anyway. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Any trends you want to talk about with co-op or other marketing activities around essential oils? I mean, we really did dig in a little bit today to talk about, even on the floor, like what you can do. So I'm very happy. These are tactics people can use today. But is there anything else that comes to mind when you're talking about marketing activities around essential oils?
Liza Docken:I think that what really speaks to people is meeting them where they're at in terms of what season is it? What is happening in the world, the real world, even if we won't don't want to see it, which a lot of us don't, um, but need to in some way or or another. I think that speaking to, like I just did a webinar about seasonal transition. What does that look like? What does that mean? How does that affect us physically, emotionally, whatever it might be? And we know the basics, right? We go into winter wellness and then we need, you know, to support our immune systems, but there is that transition from one to the other. And obviously, then too, we consider that not all climates are the same. So those in the southern states aren't going to have quite the shift. And yet, light is changing. The weather patterns are changing, and that will disrupt the equilibrium of the entire system, whether it's again physically or emotionally. So I love what we've been doing a lot lately is focusing on those transitions, focusing on where we are in the moment. And then obviously it's like maybe there's, you know, whatever it might be, school is starting, or we're talking about spring breaks or whatever. But the more real you make it for people, yeah. You know, and then loop in those pieces, maybe if it works, you know, where because social media is a thing, it's absolutely a thing. It has some good, has some negatives, but you can loop in ways to connect because the generational thing, what I find really interesting is that you know, Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they're on the track to being our next consumers given their age. They are deeply immersed in the screen experience of life, and also understand that there's an another element out there in the real world, which is pretty cool to see because you know, for a while there we were looking like we were gonna just try to live on our screens. And so I'm hopeful about that because then you can tie those two pieces in. Yeah, there's a social media influence to certain things, whether that's like vernacular or whatever it might be, but then what's happening out there? And how do we marry those two to create something really nice in terms of what you said, feeling connected? I mean, I just love that. How do we feel connected? How do we connect generations? How do we connect seasonal transitions? How do we do all of that? Um, and it's just being real, in my opinion. How real can we get? Um, honesty is, I think, really treasured right now. And so the more reliable you come across, the more you're gonna be listened to. And that may seem like yeah, duh, but I think there's a lot out there. I mean, you can I can say a lot of things in a sort of confident way, but it comes back, right? You say something, they try it, they they feel supported in that. And so you work through that. But but again, they're looking for a reliable source. They need someone who's telling them something real.
Tina Maddock:Yeah, and I think too, I love what you're talking about, meeting them right where they are. There are different life stages for different generations. They're having an everyday experience where they're looking for help with things, or there's a challenge or issue, allergies, seasonal affected disorder. I know we're not gonna talk about medical things, but like, um, but obviously there's a day-to-day that people are encountering and they're just trying to live their life and care for the people they love and, you know, be valuable in the world for the most part. And so, what are those experiences? And I do think the more that you have different generations in your store, the more you're gonna be able to speak to the different generations where they are in that moment and how they're feeling and the things that they're encountering every day. Like, is it busy mom season? Okay. That's a whole separate situation than, hey, I'm experiencing paramenopause and maybe some emptiness syndrome at the same time. So those just being able to speak to people where they are, and a lot of that comes from having different people in your store, or at least talking to the customers and being real about, hey, what's going on in your life right now. And then you're like, oh, I see that a lot of my customers are in this generation, in this life stage, or in this season. And then being able to have conversations that are relevant to them and not just you where you are, um, is very helpful.
unknown:Yeah.
Tina Maddock:And I think these retailers are just they have tools and communities that can help people no matter their life stage. So it's great if they can start to say, no, I understand where you are. Um, and we're here with you. Yeah. All right. So tell me, where can retailers find you? Maybe they aren't carrying you guys essential oil right now, or maybe they want more education, or maybe they just got excited about something you said and say, I want this new product in here. How do they find you guys? How do they get it?
Liza Docken:Um so prana room.us is the easiest access point for us. Um, but we're at a lot of the trade shows, so we're really out there supporting. Um we love the smaller shows. Um, we go to the bigger ones, but the smaller shows really add for that opportunity to have more interaction. So things like Soho um are really helpful because you you get to have that one-on-one. But I would say those are the two primary ways to find us if you're in retail and looking to find more. The website is hugely informative, um, just in terms of every, you know, there's an education section, there's the products. Um that is really our transparency and education, I would say, are two tenants really in terms of like we want you to understand so that you can support yourself better. Um, I try to convey that when I'm speaking at events, um, but also just at the table with retailers as they're coming around. So those would be the two primary, yeah.
Tina Maddock:Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. This is look, I think there are tools that people got in this conversation they could take and use in their store tomorrow. And also, I think there's a whole world that you yourself offer from an educational perspective that could really enrich the store community and um the education that they can provide for their employees. So thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us for the latest episode of the Natural Products Marketer podcast, where we're here to help you grow your business so you can serve more people and change more lives. If you have any questions that have come up during this episode or others, or there's just a retail challenge that you're facing today, I would love for you to reach out to us at info at naturalproductsmarketer.com. We're here to answer questions. But most of all, if you have a question, then another retailer probably also has that question. So we can bring experts onto the podcast to give you the information that you really need. And if you liked what you heard, give us a thumbs up or give us a review on uh YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening today. All right, it was great to see you.