Delete Half Your Meetings — and Why Gratitude Beats Cash 75% of the Time

In this episode of the Amazing Teams podcast, we sat down with Marc Cenedella, CEO of The Ladders,  to explore the evolving landscape of work culture. We discuss the shift to remote work, the key drivers of productivity, and the power of gratitude in the workplace. Marc shares insights on standing out in a competitive job market, the impact of AI on job applications, and the importance of crafting resumes that highlight measurable achievements. The conversation also touches on the role of meetings and how they can influence creativity and efficiency.

We dive into:

• How meetings can hinder productivity and creativity.
• 75% of job seekers prioritize intrinsic rewards over cash. 
• Gratitude fosters a positive work environment and strengthens team cohesion. 

Tune in to hear Marc’s advice on navigating today’s job market and building a thriving career. 

Resources:

• Paul Graham’s Maker’s schedule, manager’s schedule
• Learn more about Ladders
• Connect with Marc on LinkedIn
• The Ladders Career Cab from 2011

Chapters

• 0:00 Clearing the Calendar: Meeting Management Strategies
• 4:56 The Evolution of Remote Work: Lessons Learned
• 10:10 The Importance of Output Over Presence
• 14:59 Crafting Effective Resumes in the AI Era
• 19:57 The Role of Gratitude in Team Dynamics

Transcript

Una Japundza (00:02.584)

Let's say I want to clear up my calendar and I'm like, Marc, I'm drowning in meetings. Where would you suggest I even get started?

Marc Cenedella

Just delete half of them. 

Una Japundza

Pick any half?

Marc Cenedella

Look, if you want the aggressive way, yeah, pick half, randomly kill them. After a month, if you're like, man, I really needed that meeting, because things have kind of broken. That system's no longer working. OK, now need to put that meeting back.

Doug Dosberg 

This podcast is brought to you by Heytaco, the only peer-to-peer recognition platform that uses tacos to help teams around the world share gratitude. I'm Doug. I'm Una. This is our podcast, Amazing Teams.

Doug Dosberg (00:47.79)

Hey everyone, welcome to season three of the amazing teams podcast where we explore all things that make work better. Today we are excited to be joined by Marc Cenedella, the CEO of the Ladders. Marc, welcome to the Amazing Teams podcast.

Marc Cenedella

Thanks so much. This is great to be chatting with you.

Doug Dosberg

Of course. Tell us a little bit about the Ladders.

Marc Cenedella

Yeah, so started Ladders a little over 20 years ago. We were started to focus on helping people in the high-end job search jobs to pay a hundred grand a year or more. I'd previously been a member of the senior team at hotjobs.com, which,

Doug Dosberg

Wow, you're going way back.

Marc Cenedella

a long time ago was the number two job board behind Monster. And we sold the business to Yahoo in 2002 for …

Marc Cenedella (01:36.654)

a half billion dollars when a half billion dollars was really, that was a lot of money at one point. It's not, it isn't any longer. Right?  And looked, I loved online recruiting, looked at a couple of different ways to stay in it. I actually looked at doing hourly jobs and also looked at doing a hundred K plus jobs. Both sides interested me, but a hundred came to be a little bit more interesting. And so started, started Ladders 20 years ago and we have the, the dubious distinction of being America's oldest series A company, raised a series A, never raised a series B, never sold, never went bankrupt, never went out of business, never went public. So we're America's oldest series A business and we're a profitable business and helping millions of customers find their next great gig in life.

Doug Dosberg

That's incredible. And can you give us a little idea of the size of the company, like how many people are you? And also, are you remote? Are you in office?

Marc Cenedella

So we're 130 people. were 0 % remote before the pandemic, and we are 100 % remote since the pandemic. And we'll be remote from now on.

Doug Dosberg

Not going back, are you?

Marc Cenedella (02:46.382)

not going back.

Una Japundza 

Mar, when we were prepping for the podcast, you said before the pandemic, if someone said, I want to work from home every, you know, fifth Friday and they lived in New Jersey, like no way in hell, you're not, we can't do that.

Marc Cenedella

And all of us, I think, went through a very interesting kind of learning in 2020, 2021 about both managers and employees about focusing on the output and the measurable output rather than button seat. And that has certainly been the case for us, been the case for a lot of companies. Even with the return to office, I just think the level to which we're all focused on output and success now, perhaps with your weekly email, what did you get done this week, is in the news. That has really changed how American work anyway is done.

Una Japundza 

Would you go back to being full time in the office five days a week or you would convert to remote work?

Marc Cenedella (03:49.76)

Remote makes, know, remote is terrific in so many ways. The area where it's lacking and not perfect and that we spend a lot of time being thoughtful about, you haven't solved it yet, is the human bond. Breaking bread is always important. Innovation is tougher in a remote environment. Part of innovation is just sitting around and having some wasted time.

Online meetings are, you know, tend to be very efficient. They're not that enjoyable to waste time on. You know sometimes innovation comes from goofing around and, not really being super on point all the time. And so I haven’t quite figured that out. So we're doing quarterly, you know, offsite get togethers. We've tried to find a way to do something, you know, in the middle between those quarterly offsites. That doesn't quite work yet. But like a lot of people are trying to figure it out. In net, the benefits outweigh the costs.

Doug Dosberg

That makes sense. So our season three of the podcast, we're focusing on ways to make work better. And I feel like there's probably no one better than you to ask that question. What makes work better?

Marc Cenedella

Maybe I might be, well, I'm either the best or the worst because I help people once they've given up trying to make work better where they currently are and they're looking to go to the next thing. When we survey people, it's interesting, you know, 25 % of people do say, hey, look, what I'm looking for is more cash. 

Doug Dosberg (05:29.857)

Okay.

Marc Cenedella

75 % say something else, right? I want more, you know, meaning in my job, I want a better mentor, I want better career growth, I want to..

Marc Cenedella (05:39.82)

If they do have a commute, I want a shorter commute. I want to work in a different industry. And so, for the individual and we work for the consumer, so job seekers pay us, it's 50 bucks a month, $300 a year, you know, to help you in your job search. We, unlike everybody else, kind of really works for the employer. So our bread is always better about the professional. And so we're always focused on how can we make the professional's life better.

And so the things that drive people away from companies are those dissatisfiers, and they tend to be more what we call intrinsic rewards rather than extrinsic. A portion are extrinsic. I want to get paid more, a lot of it's intrinsic meaning, culture, fit, value, variety.

Una Japundza 

It's so interesting because a lot of times we think that everyone's coin operated, right? It's like a general common assumption. And yeah, if you were saying that 75 % of people in the job, in the high-paying jobs, people that are your customers, switch for reasons other than cash. 

Marc Cenedella 

Yeah, it's true.

Una Japundza 

When you and I talked about this podcast, and I asked you what makes work better, you had a very short answer, but that unpacks a lot. said kill meetings. And we're this podcast on a Monday.

Una Japundza (06:54.744)

Which there's a reason for why we're recording it on a Monday versus any other day of the week. So, can you tell us more about your meeting principles and philosophies?

Marc Cenedella 

Look, and this varies for everybody. For me personally, though, you know, for a lot of folks who are in some type of role creating things or building things, just meetings are killers. It sucks up time, eats up energy and doesn't earn its keep in terms of the time used for the output created. An extraordinarily influential thing for me, and I think for a lot of folks. has been Paul Graham's

blog post, Make your schedule, Manager schedule. And that was a lightning bolt out of the blue for me and explained me to me in a way that I had not experienced before. And so as a result, I've now kind of gone to, I try to keep meetings on only two days a week. So for me, this quarter of this year, it happens to be Monday and Friday. So I appreciate you guys making time for us to meet here on Monday.

And the rest of the week, Tuesday, Thursday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, yeah, I've got no scheduled meetings at all and just focus on, hey, what can I build? What can I create? That doesn't work for people in client service businesses. It doesn't work for people who are managing, you know, 10 people or who are managing 200 people. A lot of folks it doesn't work for, but for those of us who are trying to build something or do something innovative, that time to think and have a half hour where you aren't being super efficient and super productive, but that your subconscious, you know, wheels are turning is super important.

Doug Dosberg (08:38.794)

Interesting.

Una Japundza

I'm so curious, what do you do with it three days a week? Because you are the CEO, so you manage, there's a lot of people that report to you.

Marc Cenedella 

Look, we use Linear, which is a work tracking tool. I've got my issues. Okay, build, right now I'm working a lot on building better AI customized resumes. So we've built the best tool for creating an AI resume. Now we're working on is for a job application, can I customize that resume to that job application?

You know, it's very tricky with AI getting it to do for a sec. You can get it to do 80 % of what you want it do pretty easily. But particularly when it comes to resumes or people's presentation of themselves professionally, they really need it to be like 98, 99%. And so I'm spending those Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays on getting that just exactly perfect so that we can release that to our customers.

Doug Dosberg

I'm curious what an AI resume is. That sounds...

Marc Cenedella (09:40.942)

It just AI written. We take your, so a lot of people don't understand what resumes are and how they work because, like, they only really touch it every four years. And I've written a couple Amazon careers, number one best sellers on resume writing, to discuss this. And so we're asked, hey, write a document, write a written document about yourself. Well, what does that mean to me? You know, it doesn't mean that's my bio. Is it, you know, my life history? Is it my transcript?

And it's none of those things. A resume is an advertisement to get you an interview for a job that you'd accept. And those are important things. It's an advertisement, and advertisements don't lump in everything that you ever did. It's not all single-space text. An advertisement is meant to kind of give an impression of who you are and what you can do. And so a lot of people come to the resume process with, and worry and really a lack of information about how it really works. 

So, an AI-written resume, you give us a bunch of information, we produce for you with AI something that's probably a B-plus A-minus resume for you. Still today, the things that are a little bit off, sometimes the wording can be a little bit off. mean, grammatically correct, but not how it's currently said in 2025, know, North American business lingo.

And length can be a little bit variable between one and a half and two and a half pages from the AI-driven side. And then we offer a human-written resume that will come all that and get that really perfect for you. So that's what AI AI-written resume is. And that's, I'm spending a lot of my time thinking about that. Now what we're trying to do is, okay, so I'm applying, I'm a director of logistics, I'm applying to a senior logistics job at Target Minute Minnesota. Let's take the keywords out of that resume and make sure that they're present in your, take keywords out of that job listing, make sure they're present in your resume and cover letter so that you're putting your best foot forward. And that's it, it's tremendous fun. But yeah, like I said, AI is easy to get the first 80 % right. To that 98, 99 % is, that's the tough and enjoyable part of it.

Doug Dosberg (11:54.242)

That makes sense. Now, I assume now that we have AI helping people write resumes, that we probably also have AI that's helping find those resumes. Is that right? Or go through them?

Marc Cenedella

Not as much as you think. I mean, if you think about the dozen best recruiters in HR, people you've known in your life, and then think about if they had a choice between talking to somebody or typing into a keyboard, what should they prefer? it's, yeah, 100 % of the time, it's they rather talk to people because they went into HR recruiting because they like talking to people. And so doing like advanced keyword search and that type of stuff, that's not really...

That's not really what gets them excited to go to work in the morning. They like talking to people. And so the concept that AI will take over recruiting is really just simply not true. Take over parts of it, make people more efficient at it, yes. But at the end of the day, getting somebody excited about a role, is something that a human being has to do. You just think that if you had 12 or 24 or 106 different AIs reaching out to you and say, please look at my job, you'd be like, I don't really know if I'm going to listen to this AI and spend my time on looking at the job that the AI wants me to talk to or, hey, look at this candidate. Instead, still there's a role for is that human to human connection to say, I understand you, you understand me, I hear what you're going for, why don't you look at this thing?

Doug Dosberg

Got it. Now I have one more question around resumes. As we all know, there's a lot of people getting laid off right now. In fact, I have some close friends and family that have been impacted by some of these layoffs, government layoffs. Any tips from you that could help these people that are all coming into the same place looking for jobs at the same time?

Doug Dosberg (13:56.191)

It's gonna be hard to stand out, right? Any ideas around standing out, getting your resume?

Marc Cenedella

Yeah, look, the two things you've got to understand are that nobody wants to read and nobody understands what you did day to day. People love writing these intro paragraphs. Nobody likes reading them. So the more that you can get rid of that intro paragraph in your resume and turn it into two or three word bullet points, the better off you're going to be. 

What I tell people, we've done this famous research that we've redone time and again is at first pass, recruiters look at your resume for six seconds. And that's it. It's six seconds, it's not six minutes. And what I tell people is like, look, that is less time than you spend reading a billboard, driving by on the highway. 

And the second thing is, look, I understand that you know what you did every day and you're very familiar with it. Your stranger that you're trying to get hired by, has no idea. The easiest way to convey to somebody what it is that you did day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year is numbers. Use numbers.

Created 138 meeting requests, reduced expenses 17%, increased engagement by 32%. The more that you can explain numbers around what it is that you accomplished, the easier it is for that stranger to have an image in their head of what you do. I've been giving this advice for 20 years and inevitably somebody in the audience will say, But that's very nice for other fields that are very measurable, but my field is not measurable. 

And I can guarantee you something. Every job on this planet and every job in the United States is measurable. My third bit of advice is, get rid of the goofy email. I can't, we do 100k plus. And even today, if we went through and we looked at the last hundred people that signed up on Ladders, inevitably there's a golf fan 2025 at Gmail,  you know, hot stuff skier, 

Una Japundza (15:53.742)

Your high school email address

Marc Cenedella

breckenridge. And like, you know, and you're putting this on your resume. Don't. Yeah. Please get a professional email. It'll my third bit of advice.

Doug Dosberg 

That's hilarious.

Una Japundza

Marc, I feel like this could have been a great session in the Ladders career cab.

Marc Cenedella

There we go. That was fun.

Una Japundza (16:13.006)

We dug that up and I'm so curious. Why did you stop it? And what preceded what comedians and cars getting coffee or the Ladders’ career cab?

Marc Cenedella

I guess we were before. That was fun. That was 2010, 2011. And we were clipping GoPros in the back of an actual New York taxi that we rented for the day. A lot of fun. Interestingly, the guy who played the CFO on Dunder Mifflin we hired to kind of be goofy with us that day. And I think if I recall correctly, his day job had been, he had been a stockbroker, got into acting in Southern California, got into acting, and then was like the perfect CFO character, not the guy who was Steve, but the guy who came out before him. I'm just gonna have to look it up on here. David Wallace, who was portrayed by Andy Buckley. And so he came in and he listened to us a little bit. like, you know, would talk to me a little bit. And then he just riffed, like, you know, improv in the back of the cab.

I was in stitches the entire time. I could barely get questions out because he was just staying in his character, and just such a funny guy. So was a lot of fun giving advice in the back of a New York City taxi cab.

Doug Dosberg 

Are there videos of this that I've missed?

Marc Cenedella (17:28.974)

Yes.It's all online, it's all online.

Una Japundza 

Doug, you just got to look for it. Those are great. Truly look that. was like, this is comedians in cars getting coffee before comedians in cars getting coffee.

Marc Cenedella 

Okay. But yeah, but that's a great show.

Una Japundza 

That’s a great show. Well, now we know where Jerry got his inspiration, Marc. So.

Marc Cenedella 

I don't think, that's the case, but it was fun. It was definitely fun.

Una Japundza (17:48.558)

Okay, Marc, I want to come back to this topic of meetings for a second, and I want to ask you, how does that translate into your team? You have the team all over the world. Is everyone doing class meetings?

Marc Cenedella 

Yeah, so we're, look, we are all over the world. I love folks over in Europe. And so what that has meant is, in addition, most of our meetings are between nine and 12 Eastern, right? And because, you know, it gets pretty late in Poland and Romania. And so our, really our team meetings that have lots of people with different parts of the team, end up being between 9 and 12. And that forces you to be more asynchronous, which is a lot more written communication, a lot more documentation.

And then the meeting time is used for, we've been through this two or max three times in some written form, and we're not getting it. And so let's talk about it live. Tend to be the, you know, that's how decisions are pushed into meetings. If we can solve it without a meeting, it's better. It's always, it's always better. And so, probably I, it feels to me like 80 % of our issues are kind of solved just by writing asynchronously. I type in 9 in the morning, somebody else types it in at 10 at night. We kind of read back and forth and either agree or don't agree.

Una Japundza

How do you teach that to people who just joined the team? And they probably measure their productivity and how many meetings they have on their calendar, right? Not everyone, but some people.

Marc Cenedella (19:09.358)

And you're not, that's, know, we, we, don't, first off, we don't hire that. And then second, if that's really what you enjoy, you're, know, you're very quickly not going to enjoy your time in the Ladders. Really just focused on output.

Una Japundza

Let's say I want to clear up my calendar, and I'm like, Marc, I'm drowning in meetings. Where would you suggest I even get started?

Marc Cenedella

Just delete half of them.

Una Japundza

Pick any half.

Marc Cenedella

Look, if you want the aggressive way, yeah, pick half randomly, kill them. After a month, if you're like, man, I really needed that meeting, I guess things have kind of broken. That system's no longer working. Okay, now need to put that meeting back. So me personally, all my recurring meetings, they all repeat weekly till whenever. I always set the end date for two quarters out. It goes away.

Marc Cenedella (19:57.27)

And if, after a couple of weeks, a lot of people are complaining, we need that meeting back, then we'll bring that meeting back. But otherwise, no. Not a lot of great work gets done in meetings. Some great coordination work gets done in meetings. You know, three, five, three, four hours a meeting a week is enough for most folks. No more than that. Now, again, I look, I work at a 130-person company that's different from and a lot of my customers work at 1,300-person companies. And so I've got a, I've got something that works for me and for us. It's just not that's not realistic if you're working at Procter and Gamble or JP Morgan Chase. I'm certain.

Una Japundza

Well, and if you're a manager, as you said, like you have to just acknowledge you're either on a manager schedule where your work gets done in one-on-one meetings or managing projects, and then that's just your work, right? Or if you're a maker, then your work does not get done in meetings.

Marc Cenedella

So look, tried to like, so Jensen Huang, NVIDIA, know, the stock market superstar, was talking a lot, was reading a lot about him, and he doesn't have one-on-ones. So I killed my one-on-ones this year. And we're now at the beginning, we're now, we got to the end of February, and I was like, yeah, I think we need to bring those back. Right? Definitely felt, yeah, the team felt it, I felt it. And so, look, I tried it for two months. We all learned something. All right, you need one-on-ones, great.

Doug Dosberg 

What was the big thing missing? What was the void?

Marc Cenedella (21:20.75)

So you like, look a team meeting across the team. All right. Here's what we're all trying to do. Convert, you know, converting that into translating that into what does that mean for marketing? What does that mean for tech? What does that mean for operations? Thinking about some of the rough edges of how that works, syncing up and making sure that we kind of agree on how those edges meet up. That's what was missing.

Doug Dosberg 

Did you replace the one-on-one with something else, or did you just totally get rid of them?

Marc Cenedella 

Slightly, by one unit, increased the number of team meetings. But like I said, it didn't work. So, a nice experiment. Rolling back the other way.

Doug Dosberg 

So it created more meetings.

Marc Cenedella 

Well, look, I got rid of X number of one-on-ones and replaced it with one team meeting. So for all of us, it was a net time and meeting reduction, but that did not turn out to be an efficient use of time.

Una Japundza (22:12.75)

How did you know it wasn't working?

Marc Cenedella 

Well, I guess that's probably just that's just business judgment. Right? The guys on the team felt it. I felt it.

Doug Dosberg 

Like a gut feeling, this isn't working.

Marc Cenedella 

Yeah, just the, you observe the areas where, huh, that particular issue, is now the third, we're having more issues that kind of go through three rounds of online feedback or asynchronous written feedback. Maybe that would, maybe we wouldn't have quite so many of these if we're, you know, syncing up and getting aligned a little bit more. You know, it's just, you, management is a fun experiment.

I don't know if anybody gets it, has said that they've solved it. So it's just an experiment. You've got to try different ways, see what works for you. Be willing to talk out loud about what's working and what isn't.

Una Japundza (23:06.126)

I'm not even sure if there's a solution, right? It's not a math problem. With humans, there's a lot of different ways you can slice and dice it.

Marc Cenedella 

Look, the entire consultant industry, if you want to be slightly cynical about it, is you hire them and they come in and they tell you, well, look, you really got to centralize your business. And five years later, you bring them back and they're like, you've got to decentralize the business. That's, you those are. So it's a little bit of a cynical way to view it, but like, as a business, hey, sometimes you centralize and you're like, OK, we're getting the benefits of centralizing. We're learning something. We're developing those muscles. We're losing the muscles from decentralizing. And so sometimes it's flipping back and forth, and getting the benefits in observing the downsides of both are great.

Una Japundza

Marc, when you and I chatted, what was it? A couple of weeks ago, I can't remember. But at the end of our prep call, you're like, wait, are we going to talk about gratitude? Like, what about gratitude? So here's my, like, I feel like this is now your turn to lead the podcast. You're like, can we talk about the gratitude? What did you want to talk about gratitude?

Marc Cenedella 

I find tacos, I know you don't want to sell from the stage here, but I'm allowed to. Taco is an amazing product that I've loved, and I reached out to you several years ago because we had had just such a wonderful experience with it. And I can't, I think it's six or seven years ago that we started, and it was a top-down thing. Somebody has to install it. My CTO installed it. But like it has just taken off inside of the company. And like, you know, we've got this channel, this general channel that all the tacos go into, and it's just

Marc Cenedella (24:36.59)

become this thing that honestly is one of the easiest things for people to pick up. What's the taco thing? Oh, when you do something, you give somebody else something. And it's a wonderful manifestation. And it makes, I want to say makes physical, but obviously not physical because it's in Slack, right? But it makes explicit gratitude that people feel to each other each day. And it's, I'm sure for an in-office team, but you we mostly experience it with the experience of the remote team. It's just a wonderful way for teams to kind of grease the wheels and just say those appreciations and gratitudes in a very non-obtrusive, non-cringy, fun, slightly goofy, which always makes a little bit better way. And so I love the product. I love what it's taught our team about gratitude. And I love how gratitude has become something that's now it's the team owns and they do. And if I try to take away tacos, which I would never do. 

If we tried to take away tacos, there would be an uproar like, what do you mean? This is how we say thank you. It's more right. It's how people feel about it in a way that they don't feel about our business expenses or about our payroll provider. So it's a very interesting kind of emotional connection that people have to this SaaS product. So kind of wild. And so I'm somebody who's interested in work and interested in careers. I've been fascinated by that emotional connection that the product has created for our team.

Doug Dosberg 

That's awesome. I remember you sent me a message through LinkedIn and I was like, he gets it. He understands. Hey, taco, he gets it. That was early that we, yeah. Six, seven years ago. So.

Marc Cenedella (26:20.398)

Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Cenedella (26:25.422)

It's fun.

Una Japundza

I love, Marc, that you use the word gratitude. People, you know, use recognition, appreciation. I'm curious of your word choice. Why gratitude over appreciation or recognition?

Marc Cenedella

So I thought about that after we chatted, and on reflectio,n where it comes from is Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. And I don't know if you've ever read it, but it's the Roman emperor who gets offed by Commodus in a gladiator movie, and he was the philosopher king, and he wrote on the Stoic philosophy and whatnot. But interestingly, that book, Meditations, he starts off with thanking 26 people in his life.

And there's really no other work of philosophy. There's no other autobiography in history that quite has this kickoff the way Marcus Aurelius' meditation does. He thanks his grandfather for giving him an example of good morals and good temper. He thanks his mother for teaching him piety and simplicity, and living. And he goes through, you know, guy who taught him grammar. He goes through all these different people thanking them from his position as emperor for the things that they did to teach him to become the man that he, that he was. And given that he was, he was a type of namesake for me, Marcus Aurelius Marv. As a result, I named my daughter Aurelia. 

Una Japundza

Awesome.

Marc Cenedella

Right? So, so I've always had kind of this connection to this book.

Marc Cenedella (28:04.334)

And that lesson that he taught, I guess he meant to teach, but like it really had resonated with me, my whole life. And that showing of gratitude before the ego, before the success, before, you know, look on my mighty works and see how awesome I am is a phenomenal one for everybody. Right?  Because all of us here, you know.

There was some third grade teacher that helped us out. There was some sports coach that made us a little bit better than we would have been otherwise. was even some ex that we don't want to admit it, improved who we were, even though we didn't like it at the time. There's a couple of people in his list of gratitude that he doesn't like him and it's known that he doesn't like him, but he still thanks them. And so that teaching of gratitude is from Marcus Aurelius is something that is a wonderful example. it's good for one to do to others. It's even better for what it does to you yourself.

Doug Dosberg 

Yep.

Marc Cenedella

And I'm not going to get too cheesy or cringy here, And yea, but there's something about tacos that kind of manifests that. And  if we wanted to spend some philosophical time about who is taco the best for, giver or the receiver, could spend a lot of time thinking about that.

Doug Dosberg (29:32.204)

Absolutely. This sometimes keeps me up at night.

Una Japundza

And I feel like the appreciation and recognition are for the receiver, right? That's how the receiver feels. They feel appreciated, they feel recognized. But I feel gratitude, and it's for the other person, but it could be for the sun rising today, right? It could be for a warm cup of coffee, doesn't matter, right? But that's the feeling for the person that's taking the action.

Doug Dosberg

Yeah, it's good stuff. One of the few SaaS products or company-paid products that really there are profound philosophical implications about it. There's deep meaning. What a fascinating little wonderful segment of the economy that you guys have kind of created and find yourselves in.

Una Japundza

Well, that was Doug all on his maker's schedule in the wee hours of the night. Definitely didn't get done in meetings,

Doug Dosberg

Definitely not. not. Well, Marc, thank you for coming on our podcast. I appreciate you coming on, sharing your wisdom. I appreciate all of your support over the years. But before we let you go, we have a little ritual on this podcast where we ask you, who are you giving your five tacos to today,  and why?

Marc Cenedella (30:46.062)

Who am I giving to? Am I allowed to give some to you guys? You're not in my, you're not in my Slack.

Una Japundza

Anyone in your life, but not to us. We can't receive tacos.

Marc Cenedella

Well, if I had a six and seven. And there are those days that you really need the six or seven. You guys sell power-ups for like, give me, I want one more taco today. And that's probably completely contrary to the spirit of it. But you say, look, I mean, today the, I've been in meetings all day. So it just had to be people I've been in meetings with, because I'm able to interact with lot of folks, other stuff. And so it'd be executive team members, for we had our board meeting on Friday and they did phenomenal job and had a kind of follow-up meetings today. so, thanking them for their hard work going into that, and then kind of the tough work ahead.

Doug Dosberg

All right. Well, thank you.

Marc Cenedella (31:40.194)

Thank you so very much. I really appreciate it. I have tremendous gratitude for spending this time with you and greatly appreciate it.

Una Japundza

Thank you Marc.

Una Japundza (31:52.59)

Thanks for listening. One of the important things about building a team is gratitude. If you're looking to add more gratitude into your team, check out heytaco.com. We are clearly biased, but it really does work. Use the code amazingteams to receive 15 % off for the first three months of your subscription.