Amazing Teams Podcast
We started this podcast because we love teams, especially amazing ones. Michael Jordan said it best, "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence win championships." This is what we're all about!
Our mission is to help others build amazing teams by having authentic conversations with remarkable people who are building amazing teams. We will explore the tactics, strategies, and frameworks that have helped them succeed.
Amazing Teams Podcast
Leading Through Ambiguity: What Startup Leaders Must Learn (Fast) with Hannah Munizza
In this episode of the Amazing Teams podcast, we sat down with Hannah Manizza, VP of Marketing at Forge Biologics, to explore the concept of a “wrong rock boss” and the critical role of effective leadership in team dynamics. Hannah shares her personal journey from a structured corporate environment to the fast-paced world of startups at Forge Biologics, highlighting both her professional growth and the evolution of the company.
We dive into:
- Why effective management starts with clear guidance and expectations
- How navigating ambiguity is a critical skill in startup environments
- The power of understanding individual motivations within a team
- What it takes to build a strong, high-performing team from the ground up
Tune in for Hannah’s practical insights on leadership, adaptability, and what it truly takes to build an amazing team.
Resources:
- Connect with Hannah on LinkedIn
- Learn more about Forge Biologics
- Learn about Adam Grant
Hannah Munizza (00:02.334)
Have you guys heard this term “Wrong Rock Boss”? So your boss asks you to go, give you, like go find a rock and bring it back, and you bring it back and they say, that's the wrong rock. And you're like, okay, you just sent someone out on this assignment, no guidance, no guardrails, no details. And then they bring you back something, and you're like, you did it wrong. Like that is not an effective way to manage your team. It's not something that particularly inspires people.
Doug Dosberg
This podcast is brought to you by Hey Taco, the only peer-to-peer recognition platform that uses tacos to help teams around the world share gratitude. I'm Doug. I'm Una. This is our podcast, Amazing Teams.
Doug Dosberg (00:47.182)
Hey everyone, welcome to season three of the Amazing Teams podcast, where we explore all things that make work better. Today, we are excited to be joined by Hannah Manizza, VP of marketing at Forge Biologics. Hannah, welcome to the Amazing Teams podcast.
Hannah Munizza
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.
Doug Dosberg
Of course.
Hannah Munizza
So this isn't the first team that I've been on with Una, as you know, our first team together was the Robert Morris Colonials women's volleyball team. So it's like another fun opportunity to talk about teams with her.
Una Japundza (01:23.96)
We definitely talked a lot about Teams at the time, and I'm excited to talk about it again, because a lot of time has passed. I'm really curious about what have you learned or learned that doesn't work since those days now at Forge Biologics.
Hannah Munizza
Yeah, there have been things I've brought over and some things I have happily left behind.
Una Japundza
Tell us, before we get started into those lessons, tell us more about Forge and what do you do there?
Hannah Munizza
Sure. So FORGE is a contract development and manufacturing organization, which is called a CDMO, but really simply put, we help scientists and innovators, and researchers take their gene therapy concepts from the lab and scale them up through clinical and then ultimately commercial manufacturing. So helping scientists who are really focused on concepts in the lab actually manufacture these gene therapy products so that they can be used in research studies, clinical trials using humans, and then ultimately a commercial drug product.
So, as you can imagine, that takes a very specific skill set and infrastructure, and you know facility that we have here, and so that's really why Forge exists. It's because that gap was really needed in the drug development…
Hannah Munizza (02:43.736)
process for gene therapy specifically, and we have this huge beautiful 200,000 square foot facility here in Columbus to help make sure that happens.
Una Japundza
That's amazing. So, a lot of scientists on your team.
Hannah Munizza
Lots of scientists. Yeah, exactly. I'm in marketing specifically, so I guess that might be helpful. So I'm the vice president of marketing. What our job really is, is to help connect the innovations happening at Forge with the hearts and minds of our clients and our industry so that they know about all of the incredible work that those scientists are doing.
Una Japundza
Are you marketing to scientists who are developing new drugs and need someone, a partner, to manufacture?
Hannah Munizza
Exactly. So our clients are scientists, so either researchers in academic institutions, or they've raised some VC money and they need, they have their own biotech company and they're needing to scale up into clinical manufacturing, or they're at a business unit within like a large corporation, like name your big, you know, pharmaceutical corporation that might have a cell and gene therapy, R &D arm or something like that.
Doug Dosberg (03:49.78)
And so you guys are all in person?
Hannah Munizza
Yes, largely. So by nature, most of our work happens here on-site in our labs. So I would say the bulk majority of our teams are in person. Some of the back office support, administrative staff, which includes marketing, have a little bit more flexibility for in-person and remote. Yeah, cells got to grow. Scientists got to be in the labs.
Hannah Munizza
How big is your team, your whole team?
Hannah Munizza
Forge as a company is a little over 370. I think by the end of this year, we're looking to be at around 400, which is crazy considering that this company only started five years ago.
Doug Dosberg
Oh wow.
Una Japundza (04:31.598)
That's amazing!
Hannah Munizza
The facility itself was a blank slate. It was a former Borders distribution warehouse. I'll send you some pictures. It's pretty cool. But walked in blank slate, three co-founders and a little over,
Hannah Munizza (04:44.27)
four years later, we have almost 400 employees. And then my team specifically is marketing and creative. And we have six, although I have a new employee starting today. So, seven.
Una Japundza
Amazing. How big was Forge when you joined?
Hannah Munizza
Oh, I was employee number 36.
Una Japundza
That's amazing!
Hannah Munizza
Yes, I joined in the height of COVID. We had one small little lab. We all had like desks on squares that were social distance, six feet apart. We all wore masks. And now I feel like we're living in a lap of luxury with like offices and kitchens. And it's been an incredible ride. I really came from like early-phase startup through high growth.
Hannah Munizza (05:25.122)
We got acquired at the end of last year, so I've seen the whole kind of life cycle.
Una Japundza
Oh. We have so many things to unpack in that life cycle.
Hannah Munizza
Yeah.
Una Japundza
Doug, what are you thinking? I see you smiling.
Doug Dosberg
I was just thinking, so I guess you were here in DC, what were you doing in DC before you moved out to Columbus, is that where you're?
Hannah Munizza
Yup, Columbus, Ohio. I worked at a trade organization, like a lot of people in DC. So it was the National Venture Capital Association. So the trade group for the venture capital and entrepreneurial ecosystem focusing on public policy specific to venture capitalists and their startups. So I really loved that entrepreneurial industry, and I was fascinated by it.
COVID happened, I had a connection to a large VC firm here in Columbus called Drive Capital. Our former CFO was the CFO at Drive Capital, and we had the Ohio connection, and during COVID, she reached out to me to let me know that she was joining one of her portfolio companies, Forge. And I looked it up and I immediately was like, I am so drawn to this mission, I'm so drawn to this company. We've been thinking about moving back to Columbus.
Hannah Munizza (06:41.302)
Are there open positions? And she's like, we're hiring so many people, send me your resume. And like four weeks later, I had made the decision to move my entire family back to Columbus.
Doug Dosberg
That's incredible. And do you remember what that original mission was that you were drawn to?
Hannah Munizza
Yes. So Forge's mission is enabling access to gene therapies by helping take them from concept to reality. So I was really driven to not just talking about what these great biotech tech, you know, SaaS companies were doing, but really being a part of that, particularly in the building phase. And I just felt like I needed to scratch this itch. I need to be part of building something. Like, I love talking, and I love advocating and that obviously has such an important role. But I was like, I kind of want to be there. I kind of want to be in it. I don't just want to talk about it.
Una Japundza
One thing about you that I've always loved, which is that you're so intentional and when you set your mind to it, you do it. So I don't know if you remember this, but probably this might've been like 2019. You were at National Venture Capital Association, and I was like, you know, what's next? She's like, I think I'm going to join a startup. And two years later, she, there she is. She kind of has a goal, and she's like, I'm going to go do it. Or after college, I think I'm going to go to DC a month later after graduation. She lives in DC, right?
Una Japundza (07:58.626)
So I've always loved your path, like, I'm gonna go do that next. And then eventually, you know, sometimes it takes time for opportunities to develop, but you're like, I'm gonna go do that.
Hannah Munizza
Yes, I would say you and I both share like an optimistic mentality. And so I've always felt like if I'm excited about something, just gonna make it happen. It's gonna be great. Gonna figure it out. Stakes get higher as you have a family and have a lot of other considerations, but it just made a ton of sense for me. So yeah, it was great.
Una Japundza
Okay. Now, walk us through Forge. You joined early, your learnings from Forge. You joined as employee number 36. You're about to be 400 people. What was the team like at 36, and the culture, and what has changed in the last few years as you 10x'd your employee head count?
Hannah Munizza
Yes. So the team was incredibly close-knit. Everyone had input and a perspective to bring to how the company was being built. It definitely is a very specific type of person that wants to work at a startup at the earliest of phases. We had series A investment moving into our series B at that time. And it takes a type of culture and person who is really interested in rolling up their sleeves, building, okay with ambiguity, totally fine to constantly pivot.
I struggled a little bit with that, to be honest. I came from like a very structured work environment. And then all of a sudden, I would be getting directives like, okay, we're doing this, like figure this out. And I'd come back with like my perfectly curated like product launch plan, and they'd be like, yeah, we're not, yeah, we're not doing that anymore. Like here I've stayed up hours and nights, and I finally learned like how to…
Hannah Munizza (09:44.814)
…understand what they're asking and when it was really something that was going to happen versus just a conversation about throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks. So that is more of the early phase startup environment. I liked it. I struggled a little bit in it. Like I said, it was hard for me to get my bearings in terms of what actually I was doing and having to navigate ambiguity. It was my first time building a team. Previously, I've only ever come into predefined teams as like a role that was being backfilled. So that was both fun, but also nerve-wracking. And yeah, it's a very specific type of environment. And then, since fundraising acquired, we're now part of a larger Japanese company. much more established with 400 people, as you can imagine, we have processes, we have my team built, there's a core base of clients, like we've done this before. It feels a lot more, I would say, of like a traditional environment.
Now, something that's been unique about Forge that has really transcended all of those different phases is being an incredibly mission-driven organization. I would imagine that you would find this in a lot of biotech companies, but because our impact is so connected to patients directly, like our clients and the patient communities that they serve. It really inspires a lot of individuals who want to work for a very purpose-driven organization. So that has really developed into a very mission-driven culture. People feel very connected to the work that they're doing and that their work has impact on people directly. And so that's been something that's been very special and something I've really loved being a part of.
Una Japundza (11:41.838)
And it sounds like people feel that way regardless of whether they're the scientists working on actually developing that therapy and whether there's someone like you who is in marketing, right? Like you're not actually producing the scientific work, but you're getting to spread the word about it.
Hannah Munizza
Yes, exactly. So everyone has a very specific role within the organization. And even if you're not in the labs as a scientist, speaking for the marketing team specifically, you know, we still have a very specific skill set that is required to make our company function. And I love the incredibly fun challenge of taking incredibly technical and science work and making it fun and exciting and engaging and really connecting it with our clients. I think my team and others find a lot of purpose in being a part of an organization and having, you know, our particular role in delivering on our mission.
Una Japundza
Hannah, how would you define an amazing team?
Hannah Munizza
I knew, because this is one of the questions that you asked in advance, and I wanted to make sure that I was prepared. And I'm sure you guys are also big Adam Grant fans over at Amazing Teams.
Doug Dosberg
A little bit.
Hannah Munizza
A little bit.
Una Japundza (12:56.846)
We'll tell you the story after you answer the question.
Hannah Munizza
Okay, so Adam Grant talks about this a lot. I believe in this a lot, particularly as I shifted from my work at my previous job to working for a very mission-driven organization. But I believe I kind of have like three pillars. The first one is that I believe people want to work somewhere where they feel like their work has impact. Whether it's on the marketing team, whether you're a scientist in the lab, I think people want their work to feel like it's connected to impact that's happening. So that's number one.
Number two, I think having a culture and a team that is open and wants to have continuous learning is really important. So, either being able to learn from each other or from other people within the company, I think a continuous learning mindset is so critical in people feeling intellectually stimulated throughout their entire career.
And then the third is balancing productivity with well-being. So, making sure that people have the time that they have during the day to get their work done, but we're not consistently working past our core hours. We're not pinging people on Teams all the time. There's obviously anomalies that come up, but largely we respect people's personal time as well.
So yeah, kind of like what you said, all business on the court, off the court, having a great time, like making sure that I'm not bothering people at home. But when you're here, we're working hard.
Una Japundza
And having fun at the same time. I couldn't imagine you not working with a smile on your face, just like you're smiling right now.
Hannah Munizza (14:32.59)
We literally, I mean, everyone at Forge really truly enjoys working here, but sometimes I feel like we have in marketing the absolute best job at our company. Like, it is just so much fun. So yeah, can't be mad when you have a fun job.
Una Japundza
What do you love about Adam Grant's work? Anything in particular that sticks out?
Hannah Munizza
I like his optimistic perspectives. So I think he genuinely, largely has and pulls in very opportunistic, and things that you can easily adapt. Like I think a lot of times people have a lot of intellectual thoughts on organizational behavior, but I find that he has a lot of things where I'm like, I can apply that. That's really easy for me to start applying. So that's what I like about him.
Una Japundza
Doug, you want to tell her the story of how you got inspired by Adam Grant, or what inspired you about him?
Doug Dosberg (15:27.436)
Yeah, I mean, the biggest is probably his book, Give and Take. He talks about givers and takers and the power of both, just kind of sheds some light on, I guess, gratitude for me, you know. And so the running joke we have here at Hey Taco in the Amazing Teams podcast is that one day we'll have Adam on our podcast.
Hannah Munizza
Yeah.
Una Japundza
You gotta aim high.
Doug Dosberg
You gotta aim high.
Hannah Munizza
I have his little, one of my favorite colleagues here gave me his, something to think about the little daily.
Una Japundza
Awesome.
Hannah Munizza
This is embarrassing. This is April 2nd. I obviously haven't come back in.
Doug Dosberg
Couple days behind, not too many, at least it's the same month.
Una Japundza (16:08.458)
Hannah, what are some of the things that you shed about how teams ought to work throughout your career? Maybe you learned it in college, and it was like not a good lesso,n or in your first jobs you're like, this is not how it works. Avoid these things if you can.
Hannah Munizza
I would say something that I have shed is one that everyone learns, and works, and is motivated incredibly differently. And you cannot take a panacea approach to, is that the right word? Panacea?
Una Japundza
Yeah. I think so.
Hannah Munizza
You can't take the same approach with every single person and expect the results that you're looking for. And so I found this both in college and then in some jobs where everyone is like, where a leader is like, I am setting the direction, I am authoritarian, like this is what you're going to follow. And not everyone's motivated that way, and not everyone wants to work that way. So that's something that I've totally shed and found that getting to know your team, understanding what motivates them. Some people like to be called out for recognition. Some people don't like that. So, figuring out exactly what's going to motivate people, the individuality of navigating your team, I think is so important. Would you say that's the same experience that you've had in going from like college and first jobs to others? I'm curious.
Una Japundza
Probably. I mean, we had, without going into too much detail, Doug, we had a very interesting college leadership experience, but what have I learned? If you always yell at people, yelling just becomes the norm.
Hannah Munizza
Yeah.
Una Japundza
Right? Like sometimes I think it's okay to increase your voice when you have something really important to say, whether it's no, a work yell, it should not be the norm. Like, of course, but like, stern or just change your voice.
Una Japundza (17:56.91)
But if you're always just screaming, like I just ignore the scream, right? It becomes like normal language, which again is very applied to sports. think a lot, a lot, too many coaches just yell at people like they're kids, right? I'm like, we were kind of, you know, young adults, 18, adults, 18 to 22. So one thing is like, you gotta use your voice appropriately to emphasize certain points that are really, really, really important. And when you're really, really, really mad, but other than that, calm and collected is always the way to go.
Hannah Munizza
Another point that I've learned in a positive direction is the best leaders I've ever worked for have surrounded themselves with people who are largely smarter than them, and will defer to them at any given term when they're the expert at hand. I've worked with a couple of different leaders, ones who did that really well and then ones who did not do that very well. And I think leaders who are super confident know that they have gaps and they want to surround their own leadership team with people who fill those gaps and will defer to them when they need to. And I think that really speaks highly to an effective leader.
Una Japundza
Hannah, what are some of the things you're working on with your marketing and creative team right now? So you have six people, seventh person joining today. What are some unique leadership and team-building things that occupy your mind?
Hannah Munizza
Something that I have been personally working on and working on with the team is providing them with the right level of guidance so that they feel like they have the autonomy to do their work without having to constantly check in with me. And this was really inspired by someone describing what a wrong rock boss was for me. Have you guys heard this term, wrong rock boss? So your boss asks you to go find a rock and bring it back, and you bring it…
Hannah Munizza (19:48.45)
…back and they say, that's the wrong rock. And you're like, okay, you just sent someone out on this assignment, no guidance, no guardrails, no details. And then they bring you back something, and you're like, you did it wrong. Like that is not an effective way to manage your team. It's not something that particularly inspires people. think it frustrates people. And so something I've been trying to do better is provide those guardrails and guidelines and, you know, examples of this is what I think this work product should look like. But still allowing them to have the autonomy and operate with like a little bit of ambiguity so that they can truly tap into their creative side is hopefully helpful. It's something that I'm trying to do a little bit more of, so. We've been go, go, go for so long. A lot of times it's like, no, do it exactly this way. And so now that we have a little bit more time, I'm trying to build the team's abilities to do things a little bit more on their own.
Una Japundza
I like the wrong rock. I've never heard of that example, but it's like, yeah, well, what kind of rock? Like is it, is it gray? Is it dark? Is it big? Is it round or?
Hannah Munizza
Go find it, and then when you come back, they tell you it's the wrong one, you're like, oh my gosh, come on.
Una Japundza
Yeah, we never talked about the details.
Hannah Munizza
Yeah.
Doug Dosberg (20:56.575)
I'm kind of curious about the wrong rock because now I'm kind of like who should have the person who was looking for the rock asked more questions and been more curious?
Hannah Munizza
I’m sure it's it goes both ways for sure. I think you can ask for more feedback, and then you can also provide a little bit more guidance. I'm sure it's on both ends, but generally I think it falls on the leader to kind of do it.
Una Japundza
I agree with you. I think it's contribution from both people. But if you're the one asking for something, you should know more about what you want, right?
Hannah Munizza
Yes. I think that's also the key is you have to be able to give people something to work on when you already yourself deeply understand it. And I think that's where the wrong rock boss situation comes in sometimes, when they're not totally sure of what they're asking for.
Doug Dosberg
And you want to set them up for success, so I think yeah, guardrail stuff like that makes sense.
Una Japundza (21:51.864)
But I think even for the performer, it would avoid a lot of probably people's troubles and hitting against the wall at work. Because a lot of times, you might get, want a rock as a performer, like an individual person to the boss. And being cognizant of like, they actually didn't tell me not even like three more things about this rock. And just seeing that and be like, hey, tell me more about, what does this rock look like to you in your mind? Like asking three deeper questions, I think that could be the onus of the person. Like, if this is a boss that's not giving you the details, go ahead and ask three more questions.
Hannah Munizza
Totally. Yes. Yeah.
Una Japundza
Because sometimes this person doesn't know, or they meet, maybe just like a background of obviousness. I know what kind of rock I want, but I don't need to tell this person because I feel like they already understand me. Like they already kind of get it. And it's like, no, they can't read your mind.
Hannah Munizza (22:39.052)
Exactly.
Una Japundza
Hannah, anything else that …
Una Japundza (22:42.702)
… at forge or throughout your career that you have learned like definitely, indispensably makes work way more awesome. And if you were to ever have a workplace without it, you'd like, I'm quitting tomorrow.
Hannah Munizza
I don’t know that's specific to like benefits or culture, but I will tell you what makes or breaks it for me at working at companies, and I'm sure you hear this all the time, is the people that you work with. I could do so many different things if I were working with the incredible smart talented humble people that I work with here. I would do so many other things with them, like I would work in a bunch of other companies if I could work with this amazing team that I work with now.
So I would say team first and foremost. That's not just at Forge, that's at Robert Morris University, that's any team environment, the people that you're working with, make or break it, regardless of what you're working on, how it's being done, 100%.
Doug Dosberg
That's a good segue, Hannah, into gratitude. So we have a little ritual on this podcast where, at the end, we ask you who you'd like to give gratitude to. And it's based on Hey Taco, which brings this podcast to people. And with Hey Taco, which is a peer-to-peer recognition platform, everyone has five tacos to give each day. And you can use those tacos to recognize five different people for something they've done or just to simply put a smile on their face. So my question to you, Hannah, is who are you giving your five tacos to today and why?
Hannah Munizza (24:23.246)
I love this question. I love gratitude. I think it's so important. People love this stuff. Anyone who feels like they don't like hearing positive feedback about themselves, I've never met a person that smelled that way, so. Huge fan.
Okay, first taco, going to Ashley Craddick. She's one of my colleagues here at Forge. She was actually employee number one at Forge. We had our three co-founders. She was the first employee. She is the most amazing wealth of knowledge. She is a scientist. She is a leader for women in STEM. She humbly answers every single question I have that I don't know because I'm not a scientist by training. And I don't think I would still be at Forge if it weren't for her. So Ashley Craddock gets taco number one.
Taco number two goes to Jenny Shields. She's also a colleague here at Forge. She is the executive admin to all of our C-suite. She's more like a chief of staff for us here. She is so talented at that particular role. She makes everyone feel like they're doing their jobs great, efficiently. She's tapped into the EQ of every single person on our team. She's the one who got me the Adam Grant Daily Calendar. Love her. Taco number two.
Taco number three goes to Morgan, my husband. I think that with any dual-working family, it's so important to have a partner or a significant other that fully shares all aspects of your life, chips in when you're feeling like you have a lot going on, is always supportive of your job and your advancement, and could not have asked for a better partner. So Morgan gets taco number three.
Taco number four is a taco party. So don't get mad at me. This is a little bend in the rule. It's a taco party for a team.
Una Japundza
Go for it.
Hannah Munizza
I don't know if you guys saw those. I don't know if that's a product. This is a taco party. And it's for the entire technical sales team at Forge. So these are scientists who have gone either from the lab or maybe did a…
Hannah Munizza (26:36.686)
… PhD postdoc and now want to work more on the commercial side. There are the incredible people that can help explain the science to our clients, to us who don't have technical backgrounds. And man, are they not the most amazing team to work with? They are advocates for our clients, they're advocates for the science we're doing. Again, answer every single question, super creative, like, in another life, I want to be a member of the technical sales team here at Forge.
And then fifth and final taco goes to Daniel Casey, who's on my team. He is a senior marketing coordinator. I do not think marketing coordinators, marketing ops people get enough appreciation. They are always behind the scenes calling the quarterback of my team, manages and makes sure we're meeting deadlines. I mean, how many deadlines do we have in a given day? We never miss anything. He's always on top of everything. I would be so lost without him. So Daniel gets taco number five.
Una Japundza
Those are some meaty tacos. I love a meaty taco.
Doug Dosberg
Very thoughtful
Una Japundza
Yes. I love meaty tacos.
Doug Dosberg (27:44.247)
Hannah, it was nice meeting you, and again, thank you for coming on.
Hannah Munizza
Likewise.
Una Japundza (27:54.552)
Thanks for listening. One of the important things about building a team is gratitude. If you're looking to add more gratitude into your team, check out heytaco.com. We are clearly biased, but it really does work. Use the code amazingteams to receive 15 % off for the first three months of your subscription.
