How Sanger Built Financial Strength For Growth

A town can grow fast and still feel like home, but only if the people leading it make the hard choices early. We’re joined by Mayor Thomas Muir as he marks the end of 16 years in office, alongside Mayor Pro Tem Gary Bilyeu, who’s preparing to step into the role. Together, we talk about what the word “community” actually looks like on the ground in Sanger, Texas, and why that shared habit of showing up matters as change accelerates. 

We get specific about the work most residents never see: municipal finance, reserves, bond ratings, and the slow flywheel of better budgets that create real options later. Thomas explains how a city moves from “paycheck to paycheck” to strategic flexibility, and why the blocking and tackling of local government still comes down to water, wastewater, electric reliability, police, fire, and streets. Gary adds how infrastructure readiness and a stronger commercial tax base can reduce pressure on homeowners while keeping growth manageable. 

Then we zoom out to what comes next: a leadership transition built on transparency, the challenge of keeping a council cohesive, and the need for civic engagement that stays constructive, especially on social media. We also discuss the bigger legislative framework Texas cities operate under, including the ongoing property tax debate and what “local control” really means in practice. If you care about small-town growth, local politics, and how trust is built one meeting at a time, this conversation is for you. 

Subscribe for more stories from local government, share this with a neighbor, and leave a review so more people can find the show. 

You have been listening to The 266 Express, the official podcast of Sanger, TX.  IF you have comments or suggestions, please send them to dgreen@sangertexas.org

Transcript

Welcome And Leadership Moment

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to the 266 Express. I'm John Knoblett, your host, and today we have a pretty special episode, a pretty meaningful moment for the community, is uh a little bit of anticipation as well, because after 16 years of service, uh we have Mayor Thomas Muir with us, who is preparing for his uh his final chapter here as our mayor, and uh and gonna gonna add another link to the chain as we also have our mayor pro tem Gary Bileu, who will be stepping into that role after the election in May, unless there's a lot of Kilroy write-ins or anything like that, right? So today I I've got both leaders here together for a conversation about where we've been, kind of where we're going, how the heart of the community continues to guide our path forward as a group. So uh mayor, soon to be mayor elect, thank you both for being here. Yeah, glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

My pleasure.

What Community Means In Sanger

SPEAKER_01 0:58

So before we dive into the big, big stuff, um, I'd like to start with something really simple. When you think about the community and the people and the places and the spirit of Sanger, what's the first word that comes to mind, Mayor?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Um I think it is just when you say community, I think we have that. You know, community is probably a fairly generic term, but we have so many people that have invested in the community, um, that put their hearts into people when there are challenges out there, the community rallies around those people. Um, I think when we have uh an opportunity, the community rallied around the opportunities to take those. And when we have uh you know our schools, our kids, um, the community rallies around those individuals. So whether it's kind of hardship or challenges or opportunities or just rallying around our community as a whole, I think Sanger does uh the people of Sanger do an excellent job of that. So I mean I would just say community. Uh community pro tem?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, what he said. That was pretty good. No, that's uh I grew up in a bigger city and uh was traveling early on uh in the military, and uh of course my wife grew up here, and this is what we called home. And exactly what what Thomas just said, uh community are usually people that just live there, but people are active and and and I think I think Thomas hit the nail on the head uh whether it's good, bad, indifferent, uh people rally for that cause and they're passionate about it. And I think that's the true definition of community. And you don't you don't have that everywhere. And uh I I think that's why people come here and and they stay.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

And many come back. So I mean a lot of a lot of folks graduate from our high schools and our schools, and and then they will go off to some careers, and about the time it's time to build family, a lot of them will come back here because they feel so strongly about the community.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah, so I I think that's a great point. Um that that is very interesting. Because I I grew up in a bigger city, didn't want to go back to a big city, fell in love with a small town. And I think my boys now are at that point where they're moving out, they want to see more, but they always come back and they're they're not necessarily impressed with some of the things in the bigger city. There may be more things, but there's a lot more headaches, and it's it's uh I like to think they want to come home and and see their mom and me, but I think they just want to come home and and and I think home. This is what they call home, and they feel it and they enjoy coming back, and I think it recharges their batteries. I know it does mine.

The Flywheel Of Financial Stability

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, I think that's that that's a good point, right? Nostalgia gets us all at some point, you know. And uh a lot of times we look back and go, hey, um, as the mayor pointed out, I I had a pretty good childhood or I was raised well. Um if it was good enough for me, it should be really good for my children as well, my family. So speaking of reflecting back on leadership and legacy, um Thomas, can you tell us what you believe to be your most transformative accomplishment during your term as uh mayor over the past 16 years?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yeah, it's probably transformative is a big term and you think about a big event, but I think the change has been more subtle. Um a lot of leadership work is built on kind of a flywheel principle where you just push a little every day, every year, you know, and ultimately the flywheel gets some momentum and starts spending. So with that idea in mind, I think, you know, one thing we've said it in mayor luncheons and city and school luncheons, but uh that flywheel over the years, when I came into office, we were, I mean, for lack of a better term, more of a paycheck to paycheck type of a city. Yes. Um, you know, we were we were on solid ground, but you didn't have a lot of options, kind of like in your personal budget. If if it's tight, then you write the bills and there's not much optionality at the end of the day. We've taken that 16-year time frame and really probably the first 10 or 12, where we were making the most headway because there was a lot of headway to be made on the financial front. We we tout the fact that I don't know if it's four or five different raises in our bond kind of rating where we've improved our financial standing, and we've talked about it before, where that's not just kind of a stamp of approval, but actually lowers our interest cost. And because we built the financial wherewithal to get that rating, now we have optionality. You know, now we can do some things that we couldn't do when we really didn't have the budget to do it. So it's I uh it's it's transformative, but it's not an immediacy. You know, it's just a long, hard, you know, especially early on where we were slogging through budgets and keeping things pretty tight. And letting, you know, the the great thing is Sanger's grown over 16 years. So we could let the growth kind of, as long as we manage finance as well, we could let the growth build some of that for us. Um if we had didn't have growth, I think that would have been a harder proposition for for all of us, right? So I think that's a big piece of it. And um, you know, government's always about, and we should kind of be, in a lot of ways, just be transparent you know, transparent, you know, nobody even knows we're here, right? I mean, electric, water, wastewater, police, fire, just the core blocking and tackling things, those are the things we really focused most on. Um, and so I think between financial stability and just pushing all of those a little bit further down the road, year after year, um, I think that's you know what I'm most proud of is that it's not some spectacular uh change, but it's that this flywheel just slowly pushing and making uh good, steady progress, um, you know, and managing it appropriately that way. Obviously, there's a lot of city staff behind that. It's all the city managers and other city staff behind making those budgets and staff implementing those budgets. We just do the policy at the top.

The Hard Part Is People

SPEAKER_01 7:34

So you you know that's a lot, there's a lot of balls to juggle at all aspects of a city at all levels. Um, and you mentioned uh uh a lot about the finances and and um how that impacts uh some of the projects and the things that we're able to do over time. What what have you what do you think has been the biggest challenge during your tenure?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

You know, um and I'm gonna give an example uh in a minute to clarify this because I don't want it to be taken negatively, but um in any organization, I think the people dynamic is really probably the hardest and most challenging thing to do. I mean, we're all fallible people, none of us are perfect, right? And so we're all have ideas about what we want to accomplish, what we want to do, and they're usually different at least a little bit from the other people around us. You know, as you know, we deal, you know, as mayor, you you deal with the public, right, who are gonna give input uh and you're gonna take that and listen to it. That's what I've always told folks that I'm I'm the ears on this thing. If you're willing to come to me, I'll listen. And you know, staff has got to sometimes take those things and run with them because we're not on the ground every day like staff is. But the public, uh council, you know, you've got to get to some consensus on council, a group of people who are uh looking out for the best interests of the city, and so you're trying to get to some consensus there, but we all have different ideas, you know, at certain points. Sometimes they're real easy, and we all have immediate consensus, and sometimes we have to talk through it, and and then sometimes we disagree, but we take votes and we move on down the road, right? Um and then and then staff, so the public, council, staff. So, you know, the people dynamic I think is always kind of one of those that you're always working on. I like to give the example because I've served in nonprofits and on the city level, you know, whether it's church or a nonprofit board or my own business or here in in the city, um, I kind of give a sausage example. You know, if you if you wake up in the morning and your wife's got some sausage cooking and you smell it from the bedroom, you're like, man, that smells really great. You know, sausage, it's you know, it's a perfect morning, uh, morning breakfast uh thing. It's got that great smell to it. And of course, we all know how sausage is made, right? I mean, it's it's a grinding process. It's actually some of the pieces, parts that are leftovers, gets ground through the process and molded and made. Ultimately, it's this great smelling, you know, output that you enjoy with your breakfast, right? So, and uh inevitably, any organization, whether that's nonprofit, the city, you know, my own business, you know, there's always challenges there, hopefully in the end, through some of that machinations, that that grinding process that we actually come out and when when people, you know, kind of walk into a restaurant, they smell the restaurant city, they kind of smell the sausage and they go, yeah, this is a pretty good mix of things, you know, this has come together. So I think that's the uh that's probably the the most uh you know it challenging and the dynamic there, the one that's more moving all the time, right? Yeah, yeah. You can't do because you can't control how people react or how they respond.

Hidden Wins And Long-Term Land Planning

SPEAKER_01 10:52

That's how they interact. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Uh so and you made the great, great analogy with the sausage, because not a lot of people like to know how the sausage is made. I just wish I would have had breakfast because now I'm on the are there any projects or initiatives that you're really particularly proud of that the general public may not even be aware of.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Um so yeah, I was thinking about uh this idea a little bit, you know, and I'm kind of put a book in on it a little bit. Uh when Gary and I were coming on to council, we had been on 4B together for a good while, and something that was almost immediately kind of complete and put together was the Porter Sports Park. So at the front end of our tenure, you know, and others were involved in that process, and uh we were involved in it at the 4B level leading into our council tenures. And I've always told people that facility, and the public's aware of it, but that facility is our best billboard for our city. When people drive up and down 35, they see uh an outdoor, active, you know, uh really polished kind of park. Um and so I think that is on the front end of a tenure. I I like that as an example of something that took collaboration even pre-council for for us. Uh on the back end, the other side of the bookend, you know, several years ago we bought some acreage, um, you know, uh fairly large acreage. We needed extra space for a wastewater treatment plant, we needed uh potential future space for some water infrastructure, you know, some you know, storage and parks, buildings, and you know, there was a lot of things we could imagine that acreage being. And so we've spent the last couple of years. Uh we purchased it, we had the opportunity to do it because we were in a financial state where we could. We will pull that, we've pulled that into the city so there's a it's enough acreage that it it will in the future be uh extra houses that we spread our property tax base over so that a broader group of people can bear the, you know, and hopefully everybody have a little less tax burden because we've got a broader base to spread it over. And we got to carve out the public uses that were, you know, so imperative for kind of the next chapter in the city. We didn't have to go figure out where we're gonna place a 20, 30 year, you know, take us way into the future wastewater treatment plan, or maybe place another well or another storage facility for our water so that we're all looped together. So um, and that one had you know multiple aspects to it. It met a you know future planning and on multiple fronts because extra houses met some needs, and uh it's not to fruition. I mean, we're gonna we're gonna have to you know make some transitions with that extra acreage we don't need and put it back back out, and you know, we're in the process of doing that now. So it's a good bookend, front end and back, to kind of think about you know some key key things.

How Sanger Changed And Grew

SPEAKER_01 14:02

That's fantastic. This one was for both of you. Uh because the city has changed uh in so many ways since you you both started serving, uh, from your perspectives, how has the community really evolved? Uh, you know, culturally, economically, physically. What what what have you seen through this transition period?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

You want to take that one since I've been talking a little while? Sure, I'll give you a break.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Well, I um I first started coming to Singer in 1989 when uh I started dating my future wife. And um there wasn't a lot here. I mean, there were a few very few restaurants, and uh most of them were family-owned, and you had breakfast and lunch, but uh and there weren't a lot of people either. So you just look around and you see the beehive of activity. There's many places to eat, there's lots of lots and lots of uh residential neighborhoods now. Um and so just seeing that that change um economically, I think Thomas mentioned it when we first came on council in 2010. Uh we really were. I mean, we had approximately 45 days of reserve, and and I always say for a municipality, that's really paycheck to paycheck. So growing those reserves uh were important. Um and uh the you know, Thomas called them the the the just the blocking and tackling, I called it the the major muscle movements, you know, the water, the wastewater and electrical. And uh it doesn't happen fast. Those had some hefty price tags, and we just didn't have the money. So it was a slow process, but it must methodical. And I really believe that that as much as we would like to have more money in the bank and do things, I think we grew at a manageable rate. You know, it's not just what what services we provide, but uh, you know, the national economy does affect that. And when the housing market is down or the economy is in uh uh a recession or close to a recession, you know, people stop building, they they get a little tighter, and that's helped us. And even if some of these big developments wanted to come, uh uh we were in a position to to handle it with the water, the wastewater, and uh the electrical grid. And we've improved all of those things, and I think that's a huge accomplishment. And and you know, I I give Thomas a lot of credit for leading the way on that. We've we've man or we've uh secured some some uh uh water in the future, and we're able to expand. We have some just recently negotiated a uh electrical rate that is very favorable to us for the next 15, 16 years. And we're in the process of doubling our capacity on the electrical grid. So when you have all those things in place, and people have been wanting to come here for years, when you have all that in place, there's nothing to stop them. And so I think it's important for people to understand that. Um economically when we first came on council, the the preponderance of of the revenue the city gained was on on the backs of the residents. It was the the local homeowners. That has shifted drastically. This last I think the last audit really opened my eyes when we had a 50-50 split in residents and now the commercial base. And and that has always been one of one of my priorities is to shift that. How do we take some of that burden, alleviate some of the burden from the the residents and shift that to commercial? Well, uh we got to build it, and then they come, and then once they're here, we can start uh capturing that. And now with some of the big developments that have come in, uh we'll we'll start seeing that uh very, very soon. We haven't even seen uh uh started reaping some of those benefits from from Tom Thumb grocery store and and everything. They're the anchor and everything else they're bringing in. But each year we're gonna see that shift more and more to to the commercial side. I think that'll be good for the residents.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

You were talking about the change. So I I date predate Gary a little bit in Sanger. I catch older than I can go back to 1970, you know, because I've lived here for forever. Um and seeing it as a kid, I have a funny story. Every once in a while I get asked, and it's you know, because of uh teachers having their literature in third grade a government study, you know, as part of their teaks or whatever they have. And so a couple of times I've spoken to uh the kids, and I g went back and tried to find about what our population was when I was in third grade because I attended third grade in Singer. It's about 2,500, you know. And so I I give them a series of uh of numbers, and one of them is 2,500, and I try to let them let them guess, you know, what's that number mean, you know. Well, that's what it was when I was here in Sanger, and now it's you know 10,000 plus, right? And so give them an idea. I also give them a zero as a number, and I ask them, ask them, you know, what would the zero maybe represent? And they're really befuddled about that. And I said, Well, that's what your that's what your mayor and city council get paid. So anyway, and and that surprises some of the teachers even. So anyway, but you know, in the past 16 years, we've morphed, and over my lifetime, we've morphed from a town where everybody knows each other to a town where, like we said earlier, families are choosing to come here. We have a lot of new families. Uh, we're facing the growth as the Metroplex pushes this way. We're kind of the last, you know, uh standing free, you know, open real estate and open, you know, you can plan industrial, you can plan retail, you can plan residential. So we're one of those last areas. So a lot of new families. I think our demographic is falling, is everything I see. Um, I think you see that in the school going out for the for the bond election to meet that falling demographic. I think that's probably um, you know, something they're doing the planning on, but um I think it matches the demographic we're facing. And so you just see families choosing us.

Lessons For The Next Mayor

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Um yeah, it's very interesting when you look at the average age of families or the median age of families here, they're in their in their mid-30s. Yeah. You know, that that's really nice, you know, when when uh you know, from the city's perspective, when you're able to to look at that um and uh that have those families here that can can start the new legacies. Yeah. So what lessons from your time as mayor do you hope will continue to guide the city long after you're gone?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Um, you know, there's um talked about just the slow methodical process of pushing forward. Um the you know, I hope the city will maintain kind of that conservative financial planning because I think it lets us, you know, be prepared for the opportunities. You know, so it's not that we always have to be conservative because there's moments where an opportunity presents itself. We've talked about some recently, um, where if we've if we've planned conservatively and reasonably, then then we get to think strategically and opportunistically when an opportunity. Because sometimes those opportunities are fleeting. And if you don't have the wherewithal or the flexibility to take advantage of them, then you have to let them go because you can't. So I think we've gotten to a point where as we plan our budgets, and I know we continue to do this, plan our budgets, you know, keep some wherewithal to take advantage of opportunities, that balancing act between, you know, good budgeting and then willingness to take a strategic move that maybe you don't feel as comfortable about right up front, but you just kind of know that for the strategic well-being of the of the city, it's you need to take it, you know, when when the opportunity presents it. So hopefully we maintain the wherewithal to to do those kind of things uh going forward. And I think I think that's you know kind of what I would hope the city would kind of be be able to do, you know, going forward into decades in the future.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So that's a little bit of the past. Let's talk about transition. Uh have you have you had the ability to have any conversations during during this period that uh that give you confidence in the city's direction moving forward?

unknown 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Well, we not specific during the transition. I mean, we we we talked about and you said it at the beginning, uh uh depending on the outcome of the election. I didn't want to be too presumptuous, but uh as as that gets closer, uh I mean Thomas and I have been on council together since 2010. I mean we've had many, many conversations over the years, but there there will be more. I mean, there there needs to be. Uh I don't claim to know it all, and I'm sure there are many things I I may not be aware of, or or things that he's been working on that I'm not aware of, or uh just some things to consider. And I mean I'd be remiss if I if I didn't sit down with him and and and do a turnover and a transition, but to date, you know, there hasn't there hasn't been a dedicated turnover time. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Well, and I would I would uh kind of start with kind of your initial comment. You know, really Gary and I have been on council together so long, and we've been marching, uh you know, we're both at every council meeting. Um we council recently had the retreat that we have uh kind of made over the last years, made a policy of having. So we're coming off of of our kind of planning retreat, which is over, you know, not quite a full day, but a a good bit of a day worth of planning where we see all of the different um, you know, key department directors, and we have you, John, the city manager there, uh laying out, you know, where are we headed in each area and what are we doing. And so really because of the tenure and then because of that, you know, routine planning that we always do, um, there really isn't any surprises or or things that um I don't think that are that are, you know, hey, we're working on this behind the scenes, you know, and and and be looking for this, where we've been, you know, that's one thing about our government in Sanger and hopefully government everywhere, but we're we're pretty transparent. Right. And so council gets the transparency. There are some moments where council has executive sessions and we have, you know, we have to do some things like that, but you know, but and that's between councils. So certainly council has transparency. And then uh if as issues like that resolve themselves, obviously the full, full city um gets the transparency. So there's um because of our process, I I feel real confident that uh Gary said the tenure and the process both kind of handle handle where we're going.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

When you work uh alongside each other for so long towards common goals, it's probably a much more organic process than somebody brand new coming in from the outside. Yep. Um so I'll solicit some advice from the mayor uh on your behalf because we do know that um all our roles are different. My role is different, certainly from the council's. The council's role is is is different from say a school board. But even even when you're looking at those roles there, there there is there is uh some nuances between a council member and the mayor. Mayor, do you have any advice for the first for first year uh going into the position of mayor?

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Well, I think first um I would just say generically, I think each the high-selected official should really have the freedom to place their unique style of leadership to work. So I wouldn't want my style, you know, to hamstring anything Gary would want to do. Um and so I think that's important. You know, I I think council as a whole, each person has really the best interests of the city at heart, and Gary does. And so um how we exercise that is different. I tend to be kind of a little more, I don't, I don't know, more, but my style is, you know, a collaborative style that says, hey, let's let's listen to uh several different inputs and try to get you know the best ideas from that and and and see what works and see what doesn't, you know, throw everything against the wall and kind of see what sticks, kind of a style. Um everybody's style is unique and different. And so um I would just say exercise the style that fits you, that you're comfortable with and that will work in a collaborative manner with the city manager. And um beyond that, I you know, I wouldn't want to say that I'm an expert in uh in leadership styles or and you know, I think it's if I was to give advice beyond that, I just think it's um genuine, you know, be genuine. You know, not everybody will agree with you all the time, but if your motive is genuine, um then they don't have to question at least the intent. They may question your decision. I mean, you're in a position that is you know looked at, you know, and under a microscope. But um I hope that most people have felt like my intent was genuine, um, even when they might not have agreed with the the the route forward um uh over the 16 years and bear in various points. Um But I think uh people appreciate you know genuine motive. And I think if you've got that, then it garners a a good amount of respect that hopefully they give you a little bit of the benefit of the doubt and as you move forward and try to do what and you as you guide counsel. So that's that's probably the best advice I could give. And I'm not saying I've been you know perfect at all all the things I've I've done as we've walked through this, because we all uh, you know, there's places maybe where I would do things a little different looking back on things, but at the moment every step was genuine and genuinely motivated. So I think that gets a lot of um lets people give you a lot of latitude in in your decision making when it when that's the motivation. Yeah.

Keeping Council Cohesive And Focused

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I I think it's important that uh uh people understand we have this conversation all the time at City Hall, that that um everybody is trying to do the best job they can with the information they have in the best interest of the community and the people that we serve. And and sometimes it looks a little different depending on where it's coming from, but the intent and the root of that I think has always been the same across the board. And you're right, I think that builds a tremendous amount of trust with the community, which for me is probably the most important thing that we do because it allows us to to move forward and uh in a lot of other areas. Um Gary, what aspects of the the of Thomas's uh accomplishments um or leadership do you do you look at and go, I I I I would like to build upon that or expand upon that in the future?

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah, I I think Thomas um uh alluded to this earlier when he said, you know, it starts with council. I mean, you have to have a cohesive council that can uh stay focused, um uh have a vision and and uh uh communicate that to a city manager to implement. And excuse me. Uh I I'll tell you it it personalities impact your leadership style. And I think Thomas was the right guy at the right time with the right personality and the right leadership style to to keep the council, a cohesive council, keep them focused because this is what we do, it's not a a microwave council where we pass something and it's implemented the next day. These these uh uh the vision was uh 10 and 15 years down the road and fast forward being there during that period and fast forwarding 15, 16 years now and see it come to fruition, uh I was the right guy. And and uh you know, sometimes it's dealing with people is like herding cats. And uh and you know, I I think there would have been a lot more turnover on council if if you if you didn't have that. And if you didn't have his leadership style, people came, excuse me, and they uh uh there's a lot to learn. And I've been doing this a long time, and I learned something new at every council meeting. So we're not born with all those uh uh skills to run a city, but uh keeping people focused, it I think that's just uh a true testament to his leadership, leadership style. And I hope to keep a cohesive council so we can give vision for the next 10 to 15 years. Now I don't plan on being here like Thomas was the whole time, but if we can at least uh uh attract good people willing to commit uh uh the time it takes, the efforts, because it's not always pleasant. People don't always agree with what we're doing, but as long as we're transparent and tell them why. And I I believe I've said it many times. You may not like how I vote on something, but you'll never question where where I stand or where I was going. The difference is I no longer have a vote. And uh so I had no problem with Thomas being the mayor. I had a vote and he got all the phone calls, the bad phone calls, and now that that shifts. But no, all joking aside, I think that if you can continue to keep uh uh attract good people, keep them focused, I I think that's how we get things done at the mean at our level.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

So for both of you, what what do you think successful transition looks like, not just administratively, but you know, really um momentum and community momentum and trust, just in the sense that uh we're a pretty rapidly growing community now, which is has been a change over the years. So what does that look like uh for for either of you?

SPEAKER_00 33:41

You know, I I think a good change would be if nobody noticed. You know, if we can if the transition occurs and the city keeps rocking and rolling along, and other than a vote happening and you know pushing forward at council meetings, uh a continued smooth, proactive decision making, um, then that's a success, you know. Um if if we go unnoticed, then that's probably a success, right? Um and and there will there's times in city government where inevitably an issue will come up. So just because an issue comes up and all of a sudden we're noticed doesn't mean that the transition wasn't a success, because you can never time when the unexpected happens, right? So but if there wasn't a major unexpected, strategic, you know, something that pops up, um, if it's just normal city operations, um if if the transition can just go unnoticed, I think that's a success. Um Gary talked about a cohesive council um in that last little segment, and I think that's uh really imperative. Um, it we've not always agreed on council as a whole has not doesn't always agree on every issue. We banter about the ideas, and you know, we a lot of times we've been able to get to uh a a consensus ultimately after discussing the pros and cons. Sometimes we have we, you know, every time we take votes, but sometimes we have to take votes and sometimes they're split a little bit, but then we we kind of move on. I have an interesting one on transitions and and cohesiveness. When I first came into office, I was talking with um, I was at a function away from the city, and one of the long-standing, uh I think he was long-standing city manager for Frisco forever and ever, never and ever. He was at a deal and he says, Well, you do y'all because I had just come into office, he said, Well, do y'all have term limits? And uh I said, No, we don't have term limits. And he said, Great. He said, term limits are, and I I know different people are on different sides of this thing, but I'll give you the reason why. He said, term limits are horrible because you get a good, you get it takes a while to get in the position, learn the position, learn the decision making. And about that time, term limits kick in, you know. And so, you know, the ultimate term limit is the vote. That's always been uh, you know, people can boat you out if you really start making a mess of things. Um, but the fact we don't have term limits has let counsel be a lot longer and slower transition, the natural movement out, kind of like even my scenario where I graduated my last daughter and you know, and got some grandkids now. I mean, that's kind of part of the reason for this transition. It wasn't because you had to have a term limit. You can look just to our south where they have term limits, and the turnover in council just makes it a political mess. You know, we have never in Sanger had that type of you know, you can even go to smaller towns and look at them. And we have not really had that kind of political mess in Sanger. And so we're fortunate. I feel blessed having been on council during these years, to not have to deal with a lot of that. Um, I think part of it is because we're able to have this longer, longer tenured running relational interaction with councils. So anyway, so I to all that to say, I think if we continue the long-running, the slow transition process where people ebb in and out uh naturally of their own, either the vote or their own fruition, um, you know, that that's served the city really well. Yeah.

unknown 37:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Gary, anything to add?

SPEAKER_02 37:37

No, I I'm with you, and I'm torn on term limits as well. And you know, usually usually it's uh somebody that's been there a long time that and they want them out. That's when they start talking about term limits. But uh it it takes a couple budget cycles, uh a couple of terms on council to really start feeling like you're contributing. And and uh so I I always challenge people when when uh out there is for them to get involved. If if if you're not gonna get involved, um you know a lot of people have opinions and they like to voice those opinions, but as I tell my started with my kids, it's with my Marines as well, and it's with everyone else. If uh uh give me some recommendations. I mean it's easy to set back and Monday morning quarterback things and criticize things, but uh what would you have done differently? Give me some recommendations, and you know what? They may be great recommendations. I wish I and I'll tell them that. And I'll and if we go back and and implement it, I'll give them credit. I think that's how you get people involved. Otherwise, you're just complaining. And and uh just always taking that stance. And so I would really, really want to promote counsel and and get people really involved in just the civics of it. Uh, I think as as a small town, you had people that were willing to serve, and everybody was good with it, and they could go on about their daily daily routine. Well, that's changing. And there there probably will be turnover and and I don't I think the days of someone coming here and staying on for six, eight, ten terms, uh th those may be over. And and as as our population grows, there's gonna be people wanting to get involved, there's gonna be issues that get people excited. But I I want people to understand how important it is to elect good council members because their vote is what matters. And come see how they vote. Come you know, we we try to be transparent to uh uh uh where you don't just have to come physically to a council meeting. We we record those so people can see and stay in touch with what's going on. And I think that's gonna be more and and more important as as we go on, as growth comes, big developments come. Um people are gonna find out about it and and want to get involved. And and I don't know what it takes to get people involved, but I'm I'm gonna be out there encouraging them to uh maybe come to a council meeting, maybe watch it online. Hey, there's some issues coming up, and you should probably you should see how they impact you.

Priorities Ahead And Protecting Downtown

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Should be aware. Yeah, I know um because we've we've had this, I've I was asked this question one time, you know, about hey, why didn't you why didn't you bring this to all of us and the general public? And uh I believe it was Commissioner Williams at the time that that uh kind of bailed me out and said, look, you know, if we if we if the city manager or anybody on the city staff had to bring every decision that needed to be made in the city to the general public, we would never get anything done. That's why you elect these officials to hear you and to work on your behalf to on these these items. Um and it was a very similar sentiment to both of you, which is um get good people, right? Get good people, be transparent, listen, and that's how you move things forward. So yeah. So future. Uh Gary, as you prepare to take office, what are what are your first major priorities? What are you gonna tackle?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Well, uh I don't want to commit to anything right now. I think there's still some unfinished business uh uh with uh some some property the city owns, with some of our major muscle movements, you know, the the electrical grid. But uh I have several ideas, things, and uh before I and and let me preface it by saying this uh the military background, any time that you uh would take command or be in charge of something, it was just uh common practice to to put those out there, but to address the folks that are in your charge or under your leadership. And um we call that a command philosophy, and and and I intend to do that first. There's just a lot of uh time that's lost, efficiency lost when there's a a transition in leadership where everybody's wondering what's the new guy like or the new gal like? What what are they thinking? How are they gonna do business? And it's just much easier to just address that head on. Here's my vision, here's the way I want to do business, here's what I see uh the city doing, here are my priorities and questions, and all right, let's get to work and go. Well, they may not like it, but you know what? Everyone's on the same sheet of music now, and I think that goes a long way. But before I would ever do that, I think it's very important that Thomas and I get together and and uh uh we may have several of the same priorities, and um what may be lower after talking to him may move up. And and so uh not to dodge the question, that is coming, but not right here, right now.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Understood. All right. So would you imagine the city 10 years from now, knowing that uh that stepping into this role, um, you know, uh you're again continuing to shape where we where where we're headed, what do you hope it looks like and uh maybe feels like?

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Well, I I think uh 10 years from now, this place is going to look even drastically uh more different than in 2010 when I came on council to today. It's changed a lot. If you had a snapshot of 2010 and now 2026, huge changes. from now and 36 you wouldn't I don't think you're going to be able to recognize it unless what we did with the the the 2040 plan where we we and citizens input uh wanted pods and um I think where the grocery store is and and that commercial district is its own pod. But I think it's very important that the downtown maintain its character and that pod it's still the old town feel because I think that is is is going to be a a nice change because you can you can go to Denton and and see all the major retail change and you can go now across to the west side of of Sanger and you can see the same thing. But to calm downtown and and the character I think that we really need to protect the the the downtown pod in its character because I think that is is what is the lifeblood in my mind. It may not be the economic engine that the other side is but it's where the people can relax and still feel like they're at home in a small town and this is still a people business uh whether it's whether in the private sector, the public sector, the military, it is still a people business.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

So to either of you what emerging challenges economic, environmental or social do you believe that the city needs to prepare for now to avoid problems in the future?

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah I can take that briefly you know I think one of our largest challenges as a city is we live within a framework. We have to operate within a framework, a legislative framework and that has been changing over the years. I think our legislature I hope I think believes in local control. I know they are uh interested in controlling Texas compared to the federal government um you know uh telling them how they ought to operate and I think as a city we feel like we're the closest to the constituent because they're our city residents that we actually share neighborhood with and and uh their neighbors next door literally so it's very close to home. So we do have to live within that framework though that legislative framework's changing and how we can manage um our revenue streams and the things we have to do to provide public goods. I think a lot of people kind of forget you know we're electric, water, wastewater police, fire, all those things we don't all go uh build the road right in front of our house. Um kind of on the federal level we don't all buy an army tank to defend our to defend our property, right? We we pay the federal government some taxes to do defense. We pay the state government to do some things at the state level that even the city can't do. And you know we pay some local property taxes to do things like road and water and electric and police and fire locally that the state honestly doesn't really want to want to be doing. So I think we that's a interesting balancing act going forward because of the legislative arena and uh it you know it's something to navigate and it will be a challenge going forward.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Yeah it can be sometimes we we talk about that uh with the state in in my business on our end um administrators do do talk at times about the state government and local control that at times it appears that the local control they want to stop at the state level right you know it's local control to a point. Right. Yeah absolutely so to to either of you what role do you see as uh community engagement playing in shaping the next era of local government because we know over the past 16 years even the way we communicate uh our transparency uh all of these things have changed dynamically because the the world has changed dynamically um so how how do you see that um shaping government in the future well uh you know right now we're we're talking about the local level and and I'm a firm believer you can get the most done in in the least amount of time at the local level but uh as as Thomas just mentioned uh the local level is the lowest level of government there are things that happen at the federal level that impact the states that inevitably and impact us.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

So when you know I'm encouraging uh uh local citizens to get involved in local politics and elections but it may be even more important to get involved at the state level because uh uh I think a lot of the the economic side in and how and as Thomas just said um uh we have to operate under a set of rules and right now the rules that we uh generate revenue is is property taxes and there was uh quite a bit of discussion at the previous legislature and I know it's gonna be up again and it's a hot button um uh I think most of us would like to see lower property taxes but uh I want to see what the alternative the replacement that is extremely important uh I mean I'm one of those that raise my hand and say yeah I want lower property taxes everyone does but if you d abolish it do away with it what what's the alternative and sometimes the alternative could be much worse than what you have now so um before take a position on that uh I'd like to see what the replacement is and that but that does put the city in some some uh uh uh precarious situations if we do not have uh a a stream of revenue I mean there I'm I'm confident there's gonna be some alternative plans. I just haven't seen them and uh don't have an opinion until I do see them.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

On community engagement, you know, we all know that's changed dramatically because of social media and everything along those lines. You know back to a statement made earlier that didn't relate to social media but did relate to engagement. And I think people hopefully should step back from that a little bit. We're trying to put forward a you know we're not a perfect city and we're we're gonna make some mistakes or we're not gonna do things exactly like everybody in the city thinks they ought to be done but we're all trying to put forward a positive um statement and a positive communication about our community and about Sanger. And so because I tell my kids you know whatever you post on social media, it's there for forever. You know, from our city standpoint we've tried to be proactive putting out the positive things, the proactive things we're doing as a city it'd be great if the citizens kind of those that want to chime in would come alongside us and realize that everything that's said out there, when people are looking well do I want to go to Sanger or not and they're they're scrolling through various social medias and you know sometimes you know people will say things on social media they'd never tell you to your to your face. Absolutely yeah absolutely and so so I think it constructive criticism we're all open for that because we know we're not perfect but just you know to realize there's a bigger vision out there for Sanger and that each individual person at the citizen level, somebody out in the ETJ, it really doesn't, you know, we're a community 76266 I mean there's a technical city boundary but we're all part of you know our bigger community here in Sanger even if we're not in the city limits and how we communicate that and how we put forth our town to those that would look in from businesses for economic development, future residents that want to come here I think we try to engage positively but it'd be great if everybody kind of rethought kind of like I've tried to teach my kids rethink you know how you're posting or what you're what you're doing out there because it affects how you know my kids it'll affect how they're perceived at job interviews and uh it's affected how our city is perceived by those who may want to come here whether that's business or uh residences that are coming so I just hope that engagement can stay as constructive as possible. Right. And that's that's what I would encourage.

Legacy Reflections And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Right. And that that's a good you uh all of those things it's interesting that you talk about how those things impact and have ripple effects uh and talk to the you when we talk about ripple effects a little bit what do you hope that your legacy will be not not just policy but really in the spirit of the community you know we used the word community earlier and um thinking about that I just hope the community views my tenure as the kind of servant leadership that it was really intended to be despite any differences somebody might have had with regard to you know directions we took or you know stances we took as a city but I I just hope they view that time as genuine uh motivated correctly we know um hopefully well I've put forward a place where there's optionality coming into my tenure we didn't have that optionality it was just we needed to kind of you know make some slow you know flywheel type of headway and now we're at a point where I hope we can be more proactive we've already started to be because of where we sit growth is coming you know it's kind of already here but it's going to be coming hard and fast.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

I think we're prepared for that growth but it will always have challenges uh John and I have talked in the past it's a just in time how do you plan far enough out so that whatever resource or whatever you know you're putting in place lands just in time and so I I think that type of planning is really important and I hope the legacy that we built to give us optionality to plan like that a couple of years out to buy a fire truck or a transformer the things that are now supply chain is taking two and three years to get you know you would think well why didn't the city go buy this sooner well we did buy it sooner we bought it two or three years ago and it's just now showing up so there's a lot of those challenges. I think the optionality I hope people remember servant leadership, the setting up where we have optionality with our decision making and that um you know now we can plan for the growth and we know unforeseen things will pop up even with the best planning. And so I think um the city's set for those unforeseen things because we have some flexibility now that um I don't really feel like we had early on.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

So Gary when your time in office eventually comes to a close thinking about this moment in time what impact do you hope people will remember first well I I hope they remember uh that that I set a positive example.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

I I believe that's first and foremost and and then um uh had the same focus and the the driving focus that I believe Thomas had where truly it it's not about personal gain it's about putting the city and the citizens first and are we simply better when I leave than when I took over and if if that's the case then you know what gladly pass the torch and support the next person in line but uh who knows that could be I say one term it I mean it could be a half a term it it could it it it could be a term uh it could be two terms but you know uh I'm not getting any younger and been doing this a long time and uh I I tell you I I'd be remiss if I if I didn't uh say some some some things about my time uh serving with Thomas and uh it takes a lot of time and and effort to and time away from the family when you'd love to just go home and have dinner with the family but you gotta take calls you got to do different things. And that's fine. That's that's part of the job. But if if as a council member I ever thought that it was taking up too much of my time I saw the amount of time that Thomas put in behind the scenes. And so just showing up for council meetings is yeah that's expected. There's some preparation that's expected but the amount of phone calls that that he you know would would would contact me or we would discuss things he had many meetings and I believe it it was a daily part of his daily routine to do something for the city. So it wasn't just the two meetings a month and the amount of time uh that he put in to focus on this city and the citizens I've always admired that and that's why I've I've always been a big supporter. He was taking his uh we had some common like I said we didn't agree on everything but there was some con we had a common vision and uh he stayed focused and worked so many things that that his job or his position required and um uh I think it was made a job as a councilman easier uh having the information and having those discussions and all the time and effort that he put into it. So I just can't reiterate enough how much time and effort that Thomas put in over 16 years just on council and the years of service before that. So Thomas I I appreciate everything you've done and the example that you set and uh I'm sure you and I'll be talking very very soon about quite a few things.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Well thank you for the kind words I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

So as we wrap up today's conversation I just want to take a moment to acknowledge what we've heard because it's not just a story of leadership it's a story of community as we've talked about numerous times during the past hours and 16 years from service from both of you at this point, you know, two very different personalities working alongside each other parallel towards common goals is huge. And it reflects a very deep belief in the in the people who call this place home. And so we've talked a lot about accomplished accomplishments that have shaped the city challenges that have tested our resilience uh the shared visions for what comes next but I think the thread running through all of it is again community neighbors families volunteers teachers businesses owners the the first responders the people who show up speak up and lift each other up so uh to you Thomas thank you for your years of dedication and your steady leadership uh Gary thank you for stepping forward with optimism and humility and a commitment to collaboration in the future and to everyone listening this is your city this is your story this is your future uh and leadership may transition but the heartbeat of this community will remain constant so thank you for joining us today here's honoring the past embracing the future building together uh so again thank you both thank you and thank you for listening in to what's going on in our small little North Texas town