Join host Michael Lollo as he interviews transplant surgeon Dr. Anthony Watkins and the two discuss Dr. Watkins’ journey to become a nationally recognized surgeon and how the APOL1 gene impacts the African American community of donors and recipients.
Join host Michael Lollo as he interviews transplant surgeon Dr. Anthony Watkins and the two discuss Dr. Watkins’ journey to become a nationally recognized surgeon and how the APOL1 gene impacts the African American community of donors and recipients.
Welcome to this episode of One is Enough, the National Kidney Registry's official podcast. I'm your host, michael Lalo, good Samaritan, living kidney donor and the Chief Strategy Officer of the National Kidney Registry. Today, I have the privilege of interviewing a surgeon who is nationally recognized in the field of kidney transplant surgery. Dr Anthony Watkins earned his BA from Fisk University and his medical degree from the University of Tennessee. After completing his residency and fellowship training, he worked at New York, presbyterian Columbia, new York, presbyterian Wild Cornell, nyu Langone and, in November of 2021, was named the Surgical Director of Kidney Transplant at Tampa General Hospital. Dr Watkins, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to One is Enough.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to have a conversation with you. It's good to see you. Hope all is well.
Speaker 1:Everything is great. I'm so excited to have you here today. We've done a few of these podcast episodes now and I hope none of those other people who I interviewed are listening, but I've been really, really, really excited to have you on. Thank you so much for making the time for us. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Most of you may not have noticed that I missed one very important part of Dr Watkins' professional experience. I'm not sure. Dr Watkins, I have to ask you why I scoured the internet. I looked at your resume, I checked your LinkedIn and I promise you, I did check and, as those who have continued to listen know, I'm a retired NYPD detective. But you have seen Mike Lalo naked.
Speaker 2:Yes, and this I can confirm. I've been meaning to update my Stevie, but I think it's on my bio, my Instagram profile. It is.
Speaker 1:I'm going to check after this interview to see if you really have it there. Because, for a full disclosure, no pun intended. When I donated my kidney to a stranger in 2018, I was fortunate enough to have Dr Anthony Watkins as my surgeon At the time. We developed an awesome in the beginning I would say patient provider relationship. You would agree Right from the start. I think we made a connection.
Speaker 2:You were very well informed and asked some great questions to make sure you know. You know what everything entails with the process of donation and I really appreciated that and that I think it helped encourage a conducive and long lasting relationship.
Speaker 1:That is, yeah, I'm so fortunate to, I think, go from provider patient to. I like to call you a friend, hopefully. I don't know if it's reciprocated, but that's what I tell everyone. I know this surgical direct of the surgeon for kidneys and his name is Anthony Watkins. He's my friend. Look, I even show them my phone. When people show famous people on the phone, I'm like I have his cell phone number.
Speaker 2:That's right. You have the direct line to reach me 24 seven.
Speaker 1:And you always pick up and you respond to my texts. I do appreciate that. Did you ever think that in 2018, when you cut the kidney out of my body so we could go to someone else, that you'd be sitting here four or five years later doing a podcast with that person?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, time flies. I didn't realize it had been that long. But you know, honestly, you know, as you know, you and I have had several events, so to speak, since that time which I would have never imagined. You know, the living donor outreach efforts that put us on city field, for example, before Met's game, was a very unique experience. And then, you know, one of the moments that I, you know, kind of look at is one of those, those very unique experience from a surgical perspective is when you came down and actually watched me perform the surgery that I performed on you. I don't think many surgeons have, you know, had the opportunity to do that, and that's truly one of those. When I reflect back over my career, that was one of those cool moments, so to speak, to kind of have you there and you know, see what, how I did your surgery.
Speaker 1:I'm glad that you brought that up. We were just showing I was just showing the picture to someone of me and the scrubs you know before we went into the operating room and you know, I don't know, I can't say I can't say that I'm the only person in the world that has ever stood in the operating room and watched their surgeon, who performed an effrectomy on them, performing on someone else. But that's what I'm going to tell everybody that I'm the only one in the world that's in that. That's pretty rare. It was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'd be pretty rare.
Speaker 1:It was a moving experience. I will tell you. It was a spiritual experience just seeing how everything worked in the operating room and you know the surgeons get all the credit. But, to be quite honest, you really didn't do a lot of the work. I think your team that was around you does a tremendous amount to make that surgery happen.
Speaker 1:You know the people inside the OR and also the people outside the OR and you know the level of you know professionalism and as I'm talking to you about it now, I mean I'm not ashamed to admit it when the kidney came out and they moved it over to the table to get, you know, prepped for transfer, I really almost like shed a tear. You know it's just Thank you. Transplant is like remarkable and I saw it from the donor perspective. I've had the opportunity to see it from the patient perspective and when someone receives a transplant and to now see an actual nephrectomy happen and how it's removed and the care that's taken and then put in the box with the ice and shipped off to where it's got to go, yeah, I would agree. It would go up into my very short list of amazing things that I got to participate in my life for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think being a patient versus being an observer is a different experience. You go into the operating room, you're going to have the anxiety from the patient perspective. You're probably not even really truly aware of what's going on around you. So when you have an opportunity to then kind of experience that through a different lens, you see why the operating room historically was called the theater. It is a performance, if you will. It is a team effort. It's not just me, the surgeon, doing the operation, but it's the coordination of care between the anesthesiologists, the nurses in the room, and its success is dependent on everyone playing their part. But, like I said, I think for me being able to provide that experience for you and even for me being able to show you, I think that is that. I'm glad you're able to experience that, particularly in your role now, because I think it will be instrumental in what you continue to do from an advocation standpoint, because you have now both perspectives.
Speaker 1:Well, we have a bunch of things that we want to talk to you about, and when I was talking with the team about having you come on, they were obviously so excited and we want to cover a lot of stuff, but I think it's important to go way back all the way back to the beginning. Back to the beginning of Little Watkins. When's your birthday?
Speaker 2:September 2nd 19.
Speaker 1:September 2nd. I will leave it there. Something or other, yes, yes, what made you become a surgeon? Because I remember having a conversation with you that you told me, around the age of eight and nine, that's what you knew, that you always wanted to do. So how did that come about? From a little kid in Tennessee, right?
Speaker 2:Right right In Nashville, Tennessee. Really it was two I call sentinel events that occurred around the age of nine. First, my mother had the idea that gifting me a human anatomy book would be something that I would want at the age. While I was looking for the GI Joe, the Star Wars toy I'll never forget, she gave me this anatomy book.
Speaker 2:But it was interesting that as I flipped through the book I really had this instant fascination with the human body, the various systems, the nervous system, the anatomy, the organs, and I just really was attracted to that book.
Speaker 2:In fact I had a childhood friend that I later attended college with and he even remembered wanting to go play and I was like, oh, hold on, one second, Let me, I want to continue looking through this book. So that was the first recognition for me that I had this fascination with the body and how it worked Around. The same time, one time I had come on from school and there was an article about my grandfather in this magazine called Jet Magazine. It was essentially announcing his new position as a chair of surgery at Charles Drew University, which is out in Los Angeles. Now, for the audience, I have some unique family dynamics, so I hadn't actually met my grandfather at the time Actually didn't meet him until I was a junior in college. However, seeing him as a surgeon was really powerful and it kind of there was this instant connection like oh, he's a doctor, I like human anatomy, I want to be a doctor.
Speaker 1:And what year was that, if you don't know what I'm asking about?
Speaker 2:So I was nine, so that was like 85?.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so would you say it was also something about your grandfather, I'm assuming as an African-American as well. Right, right, correct. So was there something about seeing like I'm sure you didn't see, too many magazines that had an African-American surgeon in it, so did that have an effect on you? Oh, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:What I'll say is this I think that we have a challenge with a lot of physicians of color, right, and I think one of the challenges is you don't see a lot of role models, you don't see individuals who look like you, who are physicians.
Speaker 2:So, yes, not only in magazines, but around me, this wasn't something that was commonly seen, and I often tell students that I'm speaking to in regards to a career in medicine that that played a very pivotal role for me, because, in my mind, if my grandfather can be a surgeon, then I could be a doctor. I didn't know I wanted to be a surgeon, truthfully, at that point, but I knew I wanted to be a doctor. So that was a very powerful connection for me, and my mother and father weren't together. My mother didn't go to college, my father didn't go to college, so it was a very interesting dynamic to have someone that you haven't met, that's more, I will say, a distant relative. It was not the one within your household and you see that you was able to achieve that success and for me, that just that eliminated any doubt, right, because there were definitely negative feedback at various stages, but you couldn't tell me I wasn't going to be a doctor.
Speaker 1:So that really no one was telling little Anthony Watkins that he was not going to be a doctor, I was set, wow so. Wow, Did you said you got to meet your grandfather when you were a junior in college? Did he get to see you become a doctor and a surgeon? Were you able to? Was he around to share that?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. Actually it was interesting when I finally met him at how he had already been accepted to medical school and when I met him the relationship took off immediately, started attending family reunions on that side of the family and as a medical student I had the opportunity which is really cool I went to spend a way rotation at his hospital in his department. Oh wow. Now, since we have different last names again very unique family dynamics, I kind of did that experience as just a name of a student. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:No one knew that at the end of each day I was driving back to his house the rotation wasn't with him. But honestly, Mike, it was a great opportunity to finally have to hear about someone for so long, to kind of see them in that work environment that you were pursuing. Sure, it was again one of those experiences that was very impactful and I enjoyed that opportunity. So, yeah, he.
Speaker 1:Is he still around or did he pass?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's actually still alive, he's retired.
Speaker 2:Oh that's fantastic. And one other little story I'd like to share real quick is there were a lot of organizations, as you can imagine, that really didn't include blacks within the medical field. So here a group of other surgeons had performed a society that's still active and vibrant today, which is called the Society of Black Academic Surgeons, and he was the first president of the society. And what was really cool was when I was at Cornell so the way this society has an annual conference that rotates at different institutions. So when I was at Cornell we actually hosted this society. We had it for the first time in New York City and he was there. So it was really that was one of those other real cool moments where I got an opportunity to bring something that he started, he played a part of, starting back in the late 80s. I was the first president here. It is full circle. We hosted that in. Cornell.
Speaker 2:So that was really fantastic.
Speaker 1:That's so special, that's really special. Well, I was looking through all your stuff online and I told you I did a lot of deep dive research on Dr Anthony Watkins and I think I read somewhere that if you wasn't going to be a surgeon, that you might have been, or wanted to be, a professional dancer. And before I let you answer that question, I'm just going to let you know I'm not going to say who. I saw a video last night of Dr Anthony Watkins on the dance floor and let me tell you this is what we said. I'm going to let you answer that question, but God is an interesting person because he dumped a lot of good stuff on Dr Anthony Watkins. Dr Anthony Watkins is an extremely handsome man, very fit, he's a surgeon, and then you got to give him the gift of dance.
Speaker 1:It is just not fair to regular average, not good dancers like me. Couldn't he give me a little something?
Speaker 2:He gave it all to you. You're far too kind. You know, honestly, my dancing is my first love and this is why I say that Wow. Good thing you didn't say that before my surgery. Right, right, you know. Here's the reality. Motown 25, I remember watching Motown 25 when it aired back in 1983. Now I was seven, so this predates the whole human anatomy book, and it wanted to be a doctor.
Speaker 2:And then when I saw Michael Jackson do that moonwalk, oh, my gosh, let me tell you my life has never been the same, and truly. I mean even just the entire performance. It was just so captivating and from that moment on I studied that man and his moves and had him down to a tee. And in fact, when I was, throughout my education process, but particularly in elementary school and even there was a couple incidents in high school I was very known for being able to dance just like him and I would have teachers like make me do it last day of school.
Speaker 2:Anthony, please come up and do that. Michael Jackson for everybody.
Speaker 1:And you're like no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting because truthfully I was. I was a very shy child, I loved to dance, but I wasn't really the you know the. You know the great Gugari is Individual who was out talking to people and things that nature. But you know, yes, dancing was my first love. I I've I've always felt that it just it brings a different level of kind of a flow state, and I also love music, so the two could kind of go hand in hand. So, you know, if I wasn't a surgeon then yeah, I just no question I would have pursued that, no question.
Speaker 1:I just thought of something when you were talking and you know we interviewed Dr Abigail Marsh and dove into the, the brain, and you know good Samaritan donors and and things, and you know you said something about people asking you to to do the do the real Michael Jackson routine, if you will, and I'm feeling that people got joy out of seeing you do it and you Enjoy doing it because it brought joy on to people right, because you can see their reaction or faces.
Speaker 1:And then you go ahead and you, you become a medical doctor and then and a surgeon and you're you're still bringing joy To to people. So I I know it sounds crazy and people like, how is this guy making a connection to, like Michael Jackson, moon walking and and Surgery, or? But I really do feel it's like you're. You know You're the type of person who would like to bring joy to people and at the age of seven and and the video I saw yesterday, you weren't seven years old when you were doing your Michael Jackson, but you're still. You're still bringing joy to them today on the dance floor. But you're also bringing joy to, you know, to donors and and and patients by the work you do. So it's, it's. I don't know, maybe I'm making this up, maybe I'm reading into it.
Speaker 2:No, I know, I mean, even if you look at, you know, for me I am, I enjoy interacting with people. I enjoy helping people, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah so you know, surgeries is one, you know, aspect of one opportunity to provide that engagement and provide that service if you will. But you're, you're correct, and it's funny because I was actually thinking about this recently because and someone had made a comment about you know why, why didn't you just do both, or what have you? And? And they were dancing, right, right, and we were also talking about this the impact of you know Entertainers and you know, look, as a, as a surgeon, yes, you have, there's a problem, you fix it and that makes a person better. But you know art, you know entertainment, there's there's a different level of Satisfaction and sure impact on people that you do have.
Speaker 1:So I do definitely see the analogy sure you went to Fisk University In Nashville for your undergraduate degree. Fisk is historically a black university and we're recording this on the first day of Black History Month, and I wanted to ask why was it important for you to attend Fisk for your undergraduate degree?
Speaker 2:first guys. As a fist guy, let me say fist forever. My fellow this guy's know what that means. You know it's a very interesting story, mike, on all what inspired me, so to speak, to attend the HBC you when I was in high school, one of my best friends, her father, was a dentist and I remember being at their house and I really liked to talk to this guy and kind of just absorb his knowledge. He was an avid jazz lover and we would sit, sit back and he had the jazz plan and we just talk about a lot of stuff and you know, in life. And he mentioned that he had this demand, or, yeah, he had.
Speaker 2:He had this demand, a request, for he had three daughters and he won all his three daughters to attend an HBC you for their undergraduate Education and then they could attend a majority school for their graduate training. And the reason why he said is that, you know this, these environments created a unique Experience where, you know, african-americans are able to really connect with their, their heritage and their historical Experience or journey in America in a unique and special way. And it really resonated with me because I, you know, I all my, you know educational School or schools schooling had been in majority schools. So I did. I did like that idea and, truthfully, that's that's that's what inspired me to Attend HBC. Only up only applied to HBC use and I and I ended up Staying in my hometown in Nashville to go to Fish University and I'm very well proud that I made that decision and it is it's made as a part of who I am. It's made me you know who I am today.
Speaker 1:Have you had the opportunity to encourage others to go to the Fisk?
Speaker 2:I encourage others to go to HBC use. I, my son, for example, have to have two boys. I'm oldest son is is 22 and he's a senior at another historically black college University of Florida in the M here in Florida.
Speaker 1:I have you taught them? This is probably the most important question I'm gonna ask you today have you taught them the moonwalk?
Speaker 2:So my, my oldest son has two left feet right. So, okay, all right, I hope he doesn't hear this, but he wasn't blessed with the. The dance moves my younger son Early on. I thought he had it, but I don't know if he lost interest. But no, they, they don't know how to do it yet, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:That's okay. Listen, we as as you could. If you ever see me dance, you'll understand there's so many people that don't have the dancing talents of dr Watkins. But from Fisk you went to on to receive your medical degree from the University of Tennessee and then you headed to know to the northeast for your residencies and to start your career. You want to talk about any bit about that experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Interesting. I always wanted to kind of get to the northeast. I was just always attracted to to the culture and the environment of the north. I had the opportunity to visit New York a few times in college. I just was really Fascinated by the big city and all that it offered from the museums etc. So I did my residency training once I figured I want to do surgery, which happened as a third-year medical student was initially interested in trauma so I attended Rutgers For my general surgery residency because it had a very strong trauma Division right. However, during my time as a surgical resident I called the transplant bug really Really enjoyed the, the multi-dimensional aspects of transplant surgery.
Speaker 2:You know patients are really sick. You had a huge impact through the operation. There was a level of medical Knowledge and management that actually I found attractive. So being able to operate but also tinker with the immunosuppression Medication and address all the co-morbidities and then finally kind of that report that you kind of develop with patients. So after my standing New Jersey for residency, I did my my transplant fellowship at New York Presbyterian Columbia University. That essentially spent the first 11 years of my career within New York City and in each institution that I worked in really provided a different Experience that I've been able to bring now to my role here in Tampa to grow our kidney transplant program.
Speaker 1:Well, we were happy to have you in New York for as long as that. You know we were able to and we were, so we were sorry to see you. We I'm speaking for all of New York, by the way. We were sorry to see you go, but I'm very glad that you landed at another great transplant center in your new role. It's a great program over there. So you became a transplant surgeon and of course I'm a little bit biased, but in my opinion, a great transplant surgeon, and that's one of the reasons, of course, we want to talk to you today, but since this is, you know, black History Month, we want to talk to you specifically about the APOL1 genetic testing that African Americans have to undergo when considering living kidney donation. So I was hoping, since, even getting the letters straight, I sometimes have to really think hard APOL1. Can you explain in layman's terms for the millions of ordinary people who are listening, not right now, because this is being recorded, but when it gets, when it gets put out into the ether what is the APOL1 gene?
Speaker 1:Right and what does it mean?
Speaker 2:So the APOL1, which is staying as a short way of saying APOL1, Apolypo protein one is essentially a gene that's responsible for in creating proteins that play a role in immunity or body self-defense. Several thousand years ago, a mutation in this gene occurred in sub-Saharan Africa and which this mutation was a was a benefit. It conferred protection against a parasitic infection that causes African sleeping sickness. So there was a benefit, you know, from this mutation. It's really kind of, if you look at it, as your body, kind of adapted to its environment in creating ways to survive, right? However, around 2010, scientists recognized that these mutations also increased the risk of kidney disease.
Speaker 2:So the way we develop, you know, or the way we inherit genes, is we get one from each parent, so we have the opportunity to inherit two normal copies, so just normal variants, so to speak. Excuse, the normal copies of the gene. Or you can have one abnormal variant, or you can have two. And for individuals who have two, what we've now learned is that there is roughly a 20% chance of developing kidney disease or kidney failure in these patients, and obviously these are patients who are of sub-Saharan African descent. So you're talking about blacks, afro-caribbeans, some individuals who identify as Hispanic, because obviously, if you look at your 23andMe, you realize that we are a pulporea of individual backgrounds. So that's in short, that is the A-Poll1 gene, and there's a huge multi-center study underway to really kind of get more definitive information and clarification in regards to you know, how these risks, you know interplay and how we as providers can take this mutation and its various implications and educate our patients and still provide better care for them.
Speaker 1:So, specifically for donors, if someone is African-American, is it an automatic that you test for that gene and if the gene is found, does that mean they're completely ruled out of being a donor?
Speaker 2:So in the field of transplantation, this has two implications. First of all it's the donor aspect, right, so there's a donor who wants to donate a kidney and if they have these two variants we have to worry about their risk of future kidney disease. And then, on the recipient side, there's data that shows recipients who receive kidneys from these donors who have two variants have decreased survival.
Speaker 1:Oh, and you know I'm not even aware of the second component. I'm just been focused on the donor side, so we'll talk about that.
Speaker 2:So, from the donor standpoint, there's a lot of variation in how transplant centers approach this. A couple of key elements include, obviously, education. I think genetic testing is very important, right, because we need to know what. We need to risk, stratify these patients to see if they have one barrier, two variants or none. Is that just?
Speaker 1:a simple cheek swab?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And then finally, for me there's a role for patient autonomy, right. And this is where it gets a little gray right, Because for some providers the idea is that if you have two variants you're at increased risk. It's a done deal. I, personally, I try to kind of individualize the risk, in combination with education, and I try to collaborate with the patient on what's the best thing or what's the best steps it takes. So let me give you an example. If I have a 55-year-old African American who has the two variants, who has normal kidney function, let's say he's even has high blood pressure, but he's only on one agent, small dose, and his blood pressure is well controlled. He wants to donate and he's really gone cold even despite all the education we give.
Speaker 2:He understands the risk. I'm inclined to respect that patient's autonomy more so than okay. If I have a 25-year-old who has the two variants, and even if they have normal blood pressure at this time you still have such, because there's some data that shows the younger you are, the higher the risk of this disease progression. So I'm going to be very leery of allowing that patient to donate. But again, the good thing is, once there's a follow study that's taking place, once we have more definitive information, then I think we'll be able to provide our patients with more definitive data to kind of guide their decision-making into ours.
Speaker 1:So I hope that there are other providers that will be listening to this and I just want to say, from a donor's perspective, I really appreciate what you just said, because you and I had a conversation when my wife was going through the liver donation and everything was fine.
Speaker 1:But there was something that came up and you said that you treat the patient, not the number. And I think a lot of times what happens at transplant centers there's 250-plus throughout the United States they draw a very hard line on a number, so in this case it'll be the two variants of the gene oh, they got two, they're out, they're automatically ruled out. And I really do appreciate that you take the totality of the situation in hand before making a decision, because it is the donor's decision, right. But obviously as a medical provider, you swore an oath that you're not going to cause people harm and these people going for an elective surgery. But in a surgery that's kind of unnecessary and it's just refreshing to hear someone actually putting more thought into it than up. The number is two, you're out, and not seeing the whole situation. So thank you for doing that.
Speaker 2:Well, there's other nuances to this issue, right, because African-Americans do have the highest incidence of end-stage renal disease and we also have some of the lowest organ donation rates, right, so we're not donors at the same degree. That decreases our opportunities for good matches, so to speak, with organs. So it is that background aspect. But, like I said, it's very important to recognize. If you take 100% of the patients who have these both of these variants, again, there's only roughly 20%, so it's kind of hard to ascertain. Well, which 20% is it? There's theories that involve maybe there's a second hit, et cetera. It goes without saying. If it was 100%, then this is not a discussion you can't donate, but because we have to kind of take all these unknown variables into account. That's been my approach.
Speaker 1:Does this gene contribute to African Americans being three times more likely to have kidney disease?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the belief, right, because you know this is essentially how this was discovered, right, you know there was an attempt to really understand that reality. We know there's other things that play a role in kidney disease as social determinants of health, right? Sure, there's intermittent access to healthy food, access to medicine, et cetera. However, there appeared to be more than just those factors that were playing a role, and so, when you look at the ApoL1 gene variants, there's a spectrum of kidney diseases that are specifically attributed to this mutation, which includes hypertension for individuals that have HIV related kidney disease, and then something called FSGS, focal segmental glomerular sclerosis, which is some scarring of the kidney. So there's really you know, for example, the disease spectrum of diseases that this mutation tends to lead to kidney disease and kidney failure and blacks increasing that rate. And in fact, I'll say, of all the black patients who were on dialysis, it's been estimated that about 40% have these two mutations.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a big number, big number, wow. The question goal of this podcast is to raise awareness about the staggering need for living kidney donors in this country and to hopefully normalize the conversation about becoming a living kidney donor. So, dr Watkins, as you've met many individuals like me and you've performed many kidney donation transplants, both in New York and Florida, do you see progress occurring? You know, basically, are we moving the needle forward? Are we helping increase living kidney donation here in the United States?
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, we are not. If you look at the data, the number of living donor transplants has really been stagnant for quite some time now. We had a little peak pre-COVID in 2019, when there were roughly 7,600 living donor kidney transplants performed. That number was lower last year, and the same can be applied to African-Americans. It's not really clear why. I know.
Speaker 1:I've been trying to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I mean, obviously there's a wealth of. You know, we have a limited supply when it comes to the C-stone nation, right? So the living provides an unlimited source, but we just haven't been able to move the needle as a field significantly in this regard.
Speaker 1:You know the National Kidney Registry is I'm a little biased, of course, but I think one of the best organizations for a donor to participate in because of all the supports and protections through a donor shield and participation with great transplant centers like yours. But I feel like what is happening is the National Kidney Registry is attracting the donors that would have just gone somewhere else. And the easiest example to use is non-directed donation. We have a great program called the Family Voucher Program, which I've spoken about before. If you donate as a good Samaritan donor or a non-directed donor, like I did now, you can name up to five family members in case one of them ever needed a kidney, because that's a disincentive.
Speaker 1:But in the United States, it's just, it hovers between 350 and 400 people a year donate as a true good Samaritan donor, right? So last year, 300 of them donated in the NKR, at one of our Hunter and Two Transplant Centers. So we're not increasing that number. You know, the good Samaritan donations are still, you know, dare I say, flat, and I'm trying, I've been racking my brain, I'm trying. I mean, if I had like a billion dollars, I think I could solve the problem by it's just. I think it's a matter of information right. I mean, I think people just I don't think they know they could do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's multifactorial. I think, you know, education and awareness are always key. I do think there is an opportunity to increase our ability to provide financial assistance for donors because obviously they have to take time away from work, you know, not only for the actual surgery and the recovery but even for the, you know, pre-donation evaluation process. So I think there's an opportunity to not necessarily to say incentivize it, but make it, where there's not a financial burden that that donor accrues as a part of this, you know, gift of life that they're coming forward to provide, right. I think so. I think we have to, you know and this is not an obviously an NKR, but as a country, I think we really have to, you know, critically reassess why that the number hasn't moved. Recognize that living, as you and I know, living donor kidney transplants perform much better, they have better outcomes than deceased donors. So it is important to, you know, optimize that avenue.
Speaker 1:For those reasons, Right, yeah, we don't like to get political at all on this podcast, but I don't think the government as a whole does enough to help educate to solve that problem and you know, I have enough personal experiences where it's actually it's conscious that they're not promoting living organ donation because I think they're actually afraid.
Speaker 1:You know, again, you're asking, I think the government is honestly afraid to ask people to step forward for this in essence unnecessary. You know, elective procedure and, like I said, I have confirmation on that because I've literally heard someone talk who is in the room where it happens to quote a lot of my favorite Broadway shows Hamilton and I don't. You know there's only so much a national kidney registry can do, the National Kidney Foundation can do, the National Kidney Donation Organization can do. You know the government's got the reach right. If you will and I wish you know and I try, you know, with great people like Senator John Albers over in Georgia, who we had on the podcast and there are other politicians who are speaking up more about it we need to get more, you know, state, definitely state and federal government involvement and I, without that, I don't know if we're going to, you know, really move the needle.
Speaker 2:Agreed, but I think we know, look, that we we will continue to push for, we will continue to educate, raise awareness. And I think it goes without saying, while NKR might not have been able to increase the volume of living donor transplants, it's there's no question that you know. Your organization's ability to coordinate the performance of transplants with better matches, provide access for those patients whose whose donors are incompatible, you know, stills a place of sniffing and rolling outcomes, right, because not only do we want to perform more, right, but we want to have improved outcomes which prevent the need for, you know, future transplants down the road.
Speaker 1:You know you talked earlier about connecting with your patients effectively and how not connecting with your patients is. You know I've heard you talk about this it's just, you know, unacceptable, it's just unacceptable. So what kind of impact has that had on your career? To uphold this, you know, I think, very important value that you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. You know, going back to what I stated before, I mean I've always enjoyed engaging with people, more so one-on-one and being able to help people right, and so surgery has provided, you know, just an extension of that opportunity to do that in the, in the, in the medical realm, so to speak. But it's, you know, to be a great. You know anything you do. My, my philosophy is anything I do. I want to be great at it. I just don't, you know, I just don't want to be okay or average, and I think to be a great surgeon, your ability to connect with patients, your ability to educate them, make them feel comfortable, is important to me. This is, this is you know, from from from my compass, so to speak. So I just really, I really take the time and effort to achieve that and I think that it allows my, my ability to, it allows me to be a more effective provider in that way.
Speaker 1:So you know you've already said earlier on that you're very passionate about music. You love music and on one of your social media platforms I quote a glimpse of your operating playlist, which I, of course, personally was able to listen to. To some of that while I was standing there, I guess. One, how important is having the music in the background when you're doing these surgeries? And two, could you share a couple of your go-to songs during kidney nephrectomy?
Speaker 2:I am so glad that you asked question one, because I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. So let me begin. Before I answer that question, let me say yes, music. To me, music is life. I think Stevie Wonder might have coined that phrase. I think you're right, but I enjoy all genres of music, with the exception of country music. Ironically, being from Nashville, tennessee, I don't necessarily care for that.
Speaker 1:But you know, if we just lost our 10 country listeners, we had 10.
Speaker 2:I know I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I'm watching the screen and they just deleted our account.
Speaker 2:But I mean anything from classical to jazz to pop to hip hop. I mean I. And when I say that you know, some people are like, oh, listen to whatever. No, I have a playlist, you know, of my favorite classical song. Play is in my favorite classic rock. And when I begin my transplant fellowship back in 2009, I started curating a playlist on Spotify. It's called Operative Tunes. It is a public playlist, really, so your audience and you can access it.
Speaker 1:I'm doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to date it has over 600 songs and it's funny. So, you know, at certain points of the operation we have to pause the music due to timeout or do certain things. But as soon as we're finished with that, if there's any delay and I mean when I say delay I mean 10 seconds is kind of like the grace period If we're finished with it and it's 10 seconds is past, I'm like, can we get the music back on? And what I've learned? And in my honestly, for me, you know and I mentioned this before it's about the flow state, right.
Speaker 2:So no matter what mood I'm in, no matter what time of day or night, once I get the music playing I'm locked in, I'm focused, I'm good and not, you know, not every surgeon there's a lot of surgeons with us the music and the OR, but some people, as you can imagine, need it to be extremely quiet, right? So I'm just the exact opposite. I need that. I really like, I always say I need, but I really like that background music. It just puts me in a good headspace and, yeah, I have everything from Katy Perry to Elton John, to Tupac, to Bob Marley, to the Rolling Stones, to Sean Paul I mean, you name it and you know what's cool about it, is it just so happens there?
Speaker 2:Because I have such a eclectic taste in music that you know I've had opportunity to work at it's like my fourth transplant center. So everywhere I go, my playlist becomes, you know, famous, like everyone enjoys. Because no matter what you know, no matter who you are, you're going to hear a song that you like. Right, and when people hear a song that they like, it just creates a good environment. I mean you witnessed it. I mean you can. You can confirm if you know, or deny if I'm not saying it. But yeah, but that's, that's kind of my music thing.
Speaker 1:So would it be a fair statement to say that if I downloaded this playlist on Spotify called Operative Music, I could start performing the Frektimes right away, because it's going to inspire me? No, right, I just as a disclosure on this podcast. Just because you're listening to Dr Anthony Walkins' surgical playlist, you cannot perform surgeries correct.
Speaker 2:Right, you have to stay at a holiday and do that.
Speaker 1:And it's in its operative tunes. Operative tunes. I'm sorry, no, no, I just want to, because they search Operative Music. The wrong plug, the wrong plug Operative tunes. Operative tunes I got it. I have to write that down right now because I'm going to download it as soon as we get done with this interview. That's so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me know what you, what your favorite song on there is, I'm going to listen. Yeah, it's going to take some time, but do me that favor. At some point in the future Let me know. You know, this is one of the. You know when it's new.
Speaker 1:I owe you at least this one thing to go through your 600 plus song playlist at least.
Speaker 2:It was listened to when I performed surgery on you. I can guarantee you that.
Speaker 1:Speaking of that, let me just we're getting near the end over here I want to say, as one of the you know, the few people who have seen me, you know, completely naked, right, Right, I'm just assuming you were very impressed right, that goes without saying. I said oh, thank you, dr Anthony Wachas. What have?
Speaker 2:I been doing from me all this time.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, and listen, just for people. It's a joke. Dr Wachas is extremely professional. I think I had. They told me I had, you know, gowns and tablecloths all over me so he couldn't see anything, but you know.
Speaker 2:No well, no, truthfully. The truth is actually, donors are the. You know, look, you know when patients are getting prepped. Oftentimes the nurse does that. So I may or may not truthfully see the patient completely naked.
Speaker 1:But in my case, what you said you said, but in my case different.
Speaker 2:You're testing to Different to so donors. There, you know, we do have to because of the unique positioning. There is a requirement. So yes, wow, mike.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, I'm glad Mike and I go live next to you.
Speaker 2:We got to make sure people don't misread this.
Speaker 1:I'm just glad that you know. Besides my wife, I had one other human that was able to confirm that.
Speaker 2:Michael's a handsome man. Yes, that's all.
Speaker 1:Leave it. This is a family podcast, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
Speaker 2:Yes, there we go, there we go.
Speaker 1:Before I do the closing, dr Watkins, is there anything you want me to ask you, anything else, or anything else you want to come across?
Speaker 2:I do want to thank NKR for having me and provide us opportunity to raise awareness in regards to this this April one gene and also kind of talk about some of the realities. With living, donation is important. It goes without saying that, ideally, we're also addressing the realities that lead to people having a higher rate of end stage renal disease and kidney failure. Right, so, ideally, you know creating, you know ways to improve the social determinants of the health. For example, preventing the need for transplant is also paramount, and I think that hopefully we can continue to not only educate in this aspect but also address the preventative strategies as well.
Speaker 1:Well, that is very well said, and I think we should probably end there because I don't have any more profound questions for you. So, dr Watkins, I cannot thank you enough. It was an absolute pleasure speaking with you today, and on behalf of One is Enough NKR myself, we want to thank you for your dedication to transplant surgery and living donation and, of course, I want to thank our dedicated and growing listening audience. We hope that you learned something new in today's episode and that it empowers more individuals to consider living kidney donation. If you're looking for more information on living kidney donation or you'd like to start the process of being screened as a potential donor, please visit kidneyregistryorg, and you can find Dr Anthony Watkins on social media and Instagram and all that stuff. I think it's actually under your real name, right, anthony Watkins?
Speaker 2:A Watkins.
Speaker 1:You got to go to his Instagram. He's got really good stuff, Dr Watkins. Thank you again.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me Take care.
Speaker 3:You can learn more about the podcast by visiting kidneyregistryorg. When you're there, you can sign up to be on our email list so that you'll be the first to know when we drop a new episode. And, trust me, you want to be the first to know.