The Feminist Case for Remote Work w/ Lisa Conn

It's time for season 2, and on this all-new episode of DFTU, Lauren welcomes Lisa Conn, CEO and Co-Founder of Gatheround, to share her insights on leadership, virtual spaces, and work-life balance. Lisa discusses the natural roles people play in challenging situations, the impact of virtual environments on behavior, and the importance of maintaining a positive attitude. She defines success, explores the motivation behind her ambition, and highlights the power of delegation in leadership. Lisa and Lauren go deep on the value of self-questioning, making virtual meetings more inclusive, how parenthood has influenced their leadership approach, and that one time Lisa decided to read the comments section.

“Anchor yourself in how you feel today. Paint a picture of what you want to feel like in a year and then start to imagine what that looks like and work backwards.” - Lisa Conn

Follow Don’t Fuck This Up on IG: @dontfckthisup.podcast
Follow Lauren Alvarez on IG: @LaurentheAlvarez

Follow Lisa on IG: @lisapisapie

Join a Gatheround Event: https://gatheround.com/community-events

Learn more about Gatheround, a new kind of video meeting: www.gatheround.com

Email the show at advice@dontfckthisup.com for your questions to be answered on an upcoming episode!

Transcript

Lauren Alvarez (00:01)
Hello and we are back. It is season two of Don't Fuck This Up. I'm your host Lauren Alvarez and today we're kicking off the season with a super inspiring conversation with a true powerhouse of a leader. She has a rich background in politics and technology and today is the CEO and co -founder of Gather Round, Lisa Kahn. We're gonna dive into all things including that viral LinkedIn post, the importance of inclusivity in virtual meetings and why the requirement for returning to the office should never just be about the office itself. Lisa, welcome to Don't Fuck This Up.

Lisa Conn (00:00)
Thank you, I'm gonna try not to.

Lauren Alvarez (00:01)
You won't, and I'm pretty certain of that. Before we dive into it, there's so much I'm excited to chat with you about today. You've been busy. Excellent product roadmap coming up for Gatheround this year. How are you actually doing?

Lisa Conn (00:14)
I'm doing great. I had a really fun week off last week. I was stranded getting home and ended up having to road trip with my husband and my 19 month old, which was so fun and hilarious. I think in life sometimes you just have to have a good attitude about things that you don't expect. So it was really fun and know, Q3 has kicked off. We're doing great.

Lauren Alvarez (00:26)
I love that.

guess.

I think that's amazing. mean, that's something that when we were chatting just before we hit record, you we were actually talking about, you said when you're stranded in an airport, you learn very quickly what role you play. Let's talk about that for a second. So what role do you play and what roles do you see other people play?

Lisa Conn (00:52)
Yeah, I mean, there's okay. So we were stranded at Salt Lake City Airport. And I definitely think that your environment plays a role. Salt Lake City is a place that I'm sure was happier and more polite than say the airport in Vegas or LAX. I can only imagine how people are behaving in LAX. So I do think that the context that you're in and the culture around you has a role in how you show up, which by the way, I used to work at Facebook and I run a technology company now.

Lauren Alvarez (01:05)
Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Lisa Conn (01:22)
The virtual spaces that we create have an impact on how we show up and how we behave. But that's a conversation maybe for a little bit later. Yeah, I loved it. It was very stressful. I have a baby who was past her bedtime. She was not thrilled to be there. But I loved being a leader among the stranded. I had constituents. There was the group of the orthopedic surgeons that

Lauren Alvarez (01:26)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (01:48)
in Utah for a conference. I had my one representative who I would talk to about things. There was a family that had multiple generations and very few of them spoke English. And I found the youngest person in that family who I was communicating with. There was a woman whose birthday it was. She was very sad to be at the airport on her birthday. We all sang to her. There were a lot of different groups. And I had a relationship with the front desk person who was a delight. And he was feeding me true information. And I was transmitting that to my various stakeholders.

I honestly was sad to leave. had a great time. People, of course, were, there was like a superstitious woman, which was interesting. Every time a different flight area would clap, she observed that then that flight would get delayed. They would come up and say, you're great news. Your crew is here. We're leaving. And then everyone would clap, but then she would notice the flight would get delayed. So she told our whole group not to clap anytime they had allegedly good news. So I helped communicate that message.

There was one person that was just a total jerk who, I mean, lost it on the front desk agent, which is so sad to see and so mean.

Lauren Alvarez (02:50)
Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. I always think about people who work in, you know, client services, customer support, things like that. there is so much blame that gets placed on them when they're truly just communicators and they're trying to, you know, share information and cascade information. But there's so much blame. And I always try to, I mean, I am a bit fiery and also I know when it's not somebody else's fault. And like, I always try to acknowledge, like, I know this isn't your fault. I am frustrated.

I want to get information. Let's figure it out. But I feel like that also is something that when you're in different environments for work, you also see people who are that way. They just can't hear the word no, or they just can't hear that it's not their day. And I think that that is something that there is a certain personality type that just absolutely cannot be out of control. And that is something that you see in those situations. So.

Lisa Conn (03:19)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Hmm... Mm -hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (03:41)
I mean, really spoken like a true CEO, I think, is how you orchestrated this. Did you get any Gatheround clients? Did you evangelize the product?

Lisa Conn (03:45)
I guess so. Honestly, OK, actually, yes. I didn't at the time. It wasn't appropriate. But we lost our bags as well. And on Monday, after we did our road trip home when we came back, I was at the Delta counter at LAX filing a complaint, which apparently you have to do in person, crazy, to get my back. And one of my friends from the airport was there. And she works at a company that is one of our customers.

but she has not used our product, but the company has unlimited access. So I did, we're going to do a demo and I'm going to pitch her. So yeah, I did.

Lauren Alvarez (04:21)
That's amazing. That's actually amazing. I love that. And I think also, you know, knowing that you took a really unexpected circumstance and you made the best of it. I mean, I think there's so many instances of that that come up. And I definitely want to talk about some of the moments that were really big pivots for you in your career. I mean, but first, let's talk about kind of this overall idea and this concept of success. know, people throw on that word, you're so successful, you're so lucky.

Lisa Conn (04:30)
Absolutely.

Mmm. Mmm.

Lauren Alvarez (04:46)
But there's success and then there's perceived success. So how would you define that kind of diving in to our conversation today into the perception or the reality of success?

Lisa Conn (04:56)
Hmm, it's a great question. When I was growing up, my mom always instilled, I have three older brothers and myself, always instilled in us that we were sort put on this earth to help people and to make the world a better place, which is a little, you know, pageant -y, like it's a little cheesy, but when you are growing up and you hear that so consistently, I think there are a couple parts to that. There is a belief that you have skill and agency and something to contribute.

tied with that you should leverage those talents and those skills for something good for others. And that could look a lot of different ways and take a lot of different shapes. In my own family, my oldest brother lives in Joshua Tree. He is as the Eastern medicine, he's an acupuncturist and a healer. And he also owns apartment buildings and is a landlord, which is sort of interesting, but you he does good as a landlord. My next brother has a PhD in psychology and he teaches and works directly

clients and then my next brother is an attorney who does like consumer protection plaintiff stuff for the good guys. He has a lot of like class action lawsuits on behalf of the people doing the suing. And then I have had, you know, kind of a whining career, but I'm currently the CEO of a company that really makes people happy and brings them together and makes them feel more connected. So I think in all of our different ways we've taken the things that we're good at and applied those to make the world better. As I've gotten older and when I have a daughter now,

When I think about success, it is tied to potential. Like there are things that you are good at and it is so unsatisfying to live a life where you're not utilizing the strengths, the passions, the interests that you have, and you're not living up to your potential. And if your potential is to, you know, own a flower shop in Argentina and work three hours a day, and that's the thing that is going to make you feel fulfilled.

That is success to me. And my dad is a doctor, so he was someone who decided very young what he wanted to do and was in school for many years and then had a practice for many years. I think success for me is tied to change. I love doing different kinds of things. The world changes and I wanna map my skills and my interests and my passions to what the world needs at any given phase. Like the world has changed so much since I graduated from college.

and my career has changed as a result of that. And so that sort of connection between what you're good at, what you're capable of, what makes you feel fulfilled, what the world needs is really how I think about success.

Lauren Alvarez (07:34)
I think that's really well thought out and well said. I don't know if you were ever asked that question before, but you crushed it. But I also think knowing when it's time to change, knowing when it's time to pivot can be really intimidating for some and can be really overwhelming for others. I'm a coach and I work with lot of people on career coaching and even executives. They're super senior and they have this like, it's almost a whisper. It's like, I think I want to do something different.

Lisa Conn (07:39)
Mm -mm. Okay, great.

Lauren Alvarez (08:01)
And I'm like, say it louder. Like, what is the thing? know, like, let's speak it into reality. And I think it is like, you know, I had Percy Godso on last season and she talked a lot about, she said, let your little dream out. And I think about that probably once a day, but at least like, you know, once a week, because it comes up all the time for me. I'm like, I wish more people would just let that dream happen and let it out and let it come into reality. I mean, you spoke so much about kind

Lisa Conn (08:01)
No. Yeah.

Hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (08:28)
school and education and maybe what you thought things were going to look like. mean, what did you think your career was going to look like starting

Lisa Conn (08:36)
don't know I ever really knew or if it was ever that important to me to know. I think that when I was little, it would depend on the day. I'm sure if you asked me as a five -year -old, what do want to do when you're older? One day I would say, I want to be an actor. I want to be president. I want to be in all these different things. But I never really knew. I remember my mom saying, I don't know what age I was, maybe middle school. We were watching Oprah. I love Oprah.

And my mom said, well, you know, there was no career. There's no Oprah before Oprah. There was no career that was Oprah before Oprah. She created it. And so I think that I had some sense that maybe I wanted to do something that had never been done before or create a role, a path, something for myself that was unique. I don't have any memory of wanting to be anything specific growing up. And I still don't, you

I don't identify with a title. mean, I obviously have a job title. When I fill out a form, I have an occupation, but I identify as a collection of interests and skills more than any particular industry field or title.

Lauren Alvarez (09:37)
Sure.

Yeah. Well, and I think also like having that allows you to have more flexibility as, you know, a platform like Gatheround, you know, that couldn't have even existed, you know, 15 years ago, there just wasn't the technology wasn't there, like the stack wasn't there. And so I think even the concept of being that virtual wasn't even there. So I think

Lisa Conn (09:57)
Right.

Lauren Alvarez (10:07)
moving through the times and kind of growing through those moments becomes so important, but also being able to lead through those changes, I think becomes really, really exceptionally prominent when you're in that time. I think for you, knowing that, and I want to get into a little bit later more so about your pivot, but let's talk about your corporate role because you were at, I mean, you had an entire career in politics prior, then you were at Facebook.

Lisa Conn (10:33)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (10:35)
and you were still in that world. And there came a moment for you where you said, it's time to go all in on Gatheround. Is that how that happened? Or when did you know it was time?

Lisa Conn (10:51)
There wasn't a moment that I knew, but there was a moment that I had to decide. So yeah, I worked in politics. And then when I was at Facebook, I was working on issues around polarization and extremism, specifically within Facebook groups. Facebook groups were fascinating because they were these digital communities where people came together with a shared identity and shared purpose. And that

wildly, right? So would be moms who were supporting each other in breastfeeding. I now know so much about that from having supported that group at that time. Kids who, people who love to hike with their kids, people who were suffering from addiction, people with really rare diseases where a drug company could never actually develop a drug because there weren't enough people to do a clinical trial would find each other then petition the pharma company to build a drug for them and pilot it and trial it. Like really, really amazing communities.

Lauren Alvarez (11:46)
Wow.

Lisa Conn (11:49)
And inevitably, because I was working on polarization and extremism, inevitably politics would come up in these communities. In the hiking community, people would be talking about hiking routes and inevitably climate change would come up. Extreme weather would come up. And then these groups would sort of devolve into dialogue and discourse that actually they were well positioned to have, but couldn't have effectively in that space. The reason I say they were well positioned is because they had something in common. And we know

Talking about difference in the place of commonality is one of the most effective ways to do that. And so while at Facebook, I really wanted to help take distributed communities that Facebook groups represented and help them have real dialogue. So take these sort of one to many groups and have one -on -one dialogue. Around that time, two friends, sort of former Obama people, one former colleague, were kind of exploring a similar concept and we got together.

must've been four or five months before I actually left Facebook. And we, you know, it was like a napkin sketch space. And we sort of built a very, very, very rough early version of Gatheround that was, trying to start a company. was just sort of a interesting application of technology. And it was almost like a chat roulette with a prompt. So it was just a space you would go into, you would enter, you would get paired with someone else and there'd be a question. And we started inviting friends to have the experience with us because it was sort of a novel.

digital social experience, all three of us, myself and my two co -founders, just love to create and to design. And I eventually kind of connected the dots between what I was trying to solve at Facebook, what I had grown to believe was the most important thing in the world, which was to build social cohesion through technology and what we were starting to iterate on. And then we had a, I mentioned that we invited people to test it and just to experience it. One of those attendees,

was an investor who was like, hey, you can just start a company. I'll be your first investor. And that was the moment that we said, do we want to start a company? And I think for me as a woman who grew up at a time, still there's so few technology CEOs that are women or founders. I was never someone who wanted to be a founder for the sake of being a founder. I've always been very entrepreneurial and a leader of people and teams. And I've built things, but never occurred to me

the startup path, which I at the time associated with, you know, 20 year olds in garages, eating ramen, wearing hoodies. Like that was never something that I, you know, aspired to, but we kind of did it our way. And a few months later I left Facebook. We started the company and here we are. How many years, six years later.

Lauren Alvarez (14:20)
Yeah.

I mean, that's really incredible too, because I think that there are people who have great ideas and they sit on their hands or they're feeling kind of the pull to do something and then there's the fear. There's fear around it. And it sounds like you had people who also supported that dream, which I think also can remove some of the fear from it. But what advice might you give to somebody who feels stuck or they're scared of branching outside of having a corporate or let's call it a backup job?

Lisa Conn (14:49)
Yes.

I don't think you have to have a backup job. I don't think you have to not have a backup job. There's a lot of different options, a lot of different paths. The advice that I would give to anyone who's feeling stuck is to close your eyes, scan your body, center yourself, and take note of the way that you feel. What is the way you feel? Do you feel bored? Do you feel scared? Do you feel sad? Do feel tired? What are sort of the key feelings that you have in that day? And then look at

calendar and imagine it's a year from that day. So today when we're recording this is July 25th, 2024. Okay. I feel X, Y, and Z. Now I imagine it's July 25th, 2025. Whoa. How do I want to feel? That's why I have you ask when you close your eyes, what do want to feel in your body? Do you want to feel inspired? Do we feel energized? Do you want to feel relaxed? Do you want to feel stressed, but in an excited way, how do you want to feel? So anchor yourself in a year because so much can happen in a

You can have a freaking baby in a year. You can move in a year. You can be sick in a year. So much can change in a year. So I like a year as a far enough out that things can change, but not so far out that it feels so impossible. Okay. So once you've sort of anchored yourself on how do you want to feel, then start to let your head fill in the dots. Okay. So if I want to feel creative and free, what does that mean? I don't have a boss. Maybe that's the thing that you come to or

the part of my day that gives me the most energy, which is working with my hands or talking to people. That's what I want to be doing every day. Okay, so then what job is that? There isn't a job that makes me feel that way. I have to start my own company or there is a job. So I think career, life, all these things are just collections of moments. And so you want to feel the way you want to feel in the moments. And it ladders into...

what your job is and what your title is and who you work for and what you work on. But really it's about how you feel. So that's my advice. And it's not the most concrete maybe, but anchor yourself in how you feel today. Paint a picture of what you want to feel like in a year and then start to imagine what that looks like and work backwards.

Lauren Alvarez (17:12)
I really love that. And something that stood out to me when we first chatted about having you on the show was you said you're so surprised what something you say has weight. And what you just said is so profound and you almost backpedaled it. Even at the end of it, you're like, I don't know, it's not perfectly formed, but it's so weighty. And I think sometimes as I'll say, especially as women, we downplay what that is. And you spoke about one of your biggest learnings being

Lisa Conn (17:36)
Totally.

Lauren Alvarez (17:42)
being younger, being feminine, having to fight to be taken seriously and fighting to have power and fighting to get into that place. And when you are now in that place, you're still letting even that creeps in. it's not a dig, it's actually, it's a compliment because it's like, happens to all of us. And we get into that moment and you can be absolutely crushing it. mean, look at Simone Biles, look at like all of these amazing people on world platforms who definitely have.

Lisa Conn (18:00)
yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (18:09)
self doubt or have those moments. so I think that that's just like really special that you shared that with me vulnerably and also that you are able to share such weighty words and those are going to stay with me for sure. And I'm sure with our listeners too.

Lisa Conn (18:23)
Adam Grant, according to Adam Grant, I tend to believe things that he says, according to Adam Grant, leaders, and probably anyone, that have what he refers to as imposter syndrome thoughts are actually more successful and more effective. The reason that I've added the word thoughts is apparently there is a true clinical syndrome, imposter syndrome, that is not what we mean when we talk about it. But the idea of questioning yourself, having moments of insecurity, recognizing what you don't know, these things that we associate

Lauren Alvarez (18:26)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (18:52)
imposter syndrome. Having those thoughts apparently is associated with being a more effective and successful leader. And it makes sense because I think it's tied to having a growth mindset where you recognize what you don't know and where your limitations are and you know when to ask for help and how to ask for help. So I don't take that as a dig in any way. I take it as a compliment. And Adam Grant's research backs it

Lauren Alvarez (19:14)
Yeah, Adam's also complimenting you. mean, and I'm a fan as well. And I think that, you know, with that being said, know, imposter syndrome is something people come to me all the time and they're like, I have imposter syndrome, you how do I vanquish it? I'm like, don't, you know, lean into it. Ask yourself why you're asking those questions, why you feel like you can't be successful. Maybe you're surrounded by colleagues who have doubt in themselves, so it's reflected back on you. Maybe you are in a company where you're quite literally not set up for success and it's going to be hard to grow there.

Lisa Conn (19:16)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, right, right.

Right, right.

Lauren Alvarez (19:43)
Or maybe you're in a position that's challenging for you too. And an exercise that I have people do that I'm working with is like auditing your calendar. You say, at your calendar, envision a year from now. Look at your calendar retrospectively over the last two months. How would you bucket your time? What things ignite you? What things are you like, I don't love it, but it's part of the gig. And what things are you like, every time I do this, I want to gouge my eyes out.

Lisa Conn (19:47)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (20:09)
Focus on those things, and those are either things that you really need to put energy toward to grow or that maybe you've outgrown completely and you can delegate to somebody else. And I think delegation is sometimes the thing that, especially as you become more senior as a leader, becomes a challenge. let's talk about when you're in a CEO role, who do you delegate to? When do things get off your plate?

Lisa Conn (20:33)
Delegation is something that I have a very healthy relationship with because of the early part of my career. So I started my career doing community organizing on the Obama campaigns and a few other political campaigns. And the basic concept of organizing, you kind of hear that if you've never worked or volunteered in a campaign, you know what it is, but it's about what we call layers of leadership and making asks.

Lauren Alvarez (20:37)
I love that. Yeah.

Lisa Conn (20:57)
So I was in my early 20s, I moved to Florida, South Florida, and I was given a goal on election day, I had to turn out whatever 100 ,000 something voters. No, I think it was maybe 500 ,000, whatever it was, tons of voters I had to turn out. And we were able to do the math and see, okay, in order to do that, we have to register this number of voters, persuade this number of voters, contact this number to get them to go to the polls. And it was me and I had a staff, I had like a two person,

budget to hire two people at that time. This was a couple years out from Election Day. I like, how are you going to do that? Well, you have to create these sort of multiple layers of leadership in the form of volunteer teams. So I would take my couple staffers, train them. They would find volunteer leaders, train them. They would build teams, train them. And all of those things are delegation. And I remember when I first got involved in politics, I cared about a candidate. I wanted to

All I wanted was someone to tell me what to do. I wanted responsibility. I wanted a list of phone numbers and names to call and a script on how to call them. It almost giving me work. was like I was hungry to participate, hungry to contribute, hungry to get involved. And so when you're doing political organizing, which was how I started my career, you don't use the word delegate. It's like train, empower, include.

Lauren Alvarez (22:20)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Conn (22:20)
And when working for a candidate like Barack Obama, people wanted so badly to help him win at this time. So that concept where giving people responsibility, giving people clear roles, clear goals is empowering. It's not a burden. It's not a burden. People love contributing. So I think that that skill has allowed me

rise professionally into management roles and leadership roles and now into a CEO role, because I don't ever think twice about delegating to use, to use that word. What I think I do that is unique is delegate responsibility instead of tasks. Those are different things. So making someone an owner of something and defining what success looks like, sharing the stakes, sharing why it's important, giving clear expectations. And

Lauren Alvarez (23:07)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (23:19)
giving them space and support in the tasks and the tactics and doing it the way they want to do it. And so I love, know, that's the whole can't do things alone. It's all about creating teams that are greater than some of their parts. I think the way that you do that is through delegating or giving people responsibilities.

Lauren Alvarez (23:32)
Yes.

Yes, and I also think that when you're doing that, you're not clearing your plate so you can chill. You're clearing your plate so you can take on the things that you can put your magic on that other people can't do because it's the role of the CEO or it's the role of the founder. And I think that that's the thing that folks who feel bad about handing things off, I'm like, usually it's someone who's chomping at the bed to really do that work that they're eager, they want the opportunity. So you're giving them something that they can grow into and grow through.

Lisa Conn (23:45)
Right.

Right, right,

Lauren Alvarez (24:08)
You're also allowing yourself to be a mentor, to be a leader, and there's a difference between those two things, right? And I think you're also giving yourself some time to take on those things that aren't going to get done without you. And I think that that's the thing that I will try to wrangle out of the death grip of so many founders is exactly the last thing is they feel like everything will fall apart if they don't do it. But there is that unlock. And maybe every founder should work in politics for a little bit in organizing.

Lisa Conn (24:15)
Definitely.

Right, right, yeah,

I mean, the whole mantra is you organize yourself out of a job. Your goal is that on election day, you are chilling. You're not, but your goal is that everyone is out there because they're trained, because they're ready, because they know what to do. And you're there waiting for the phone call that there is a voter protection issue that you have to call the lawyers around or whatever it is. Yeah, I think the people not believing things will get done without them is really about trust. And that's a tough one.

Lauren Alvarez (24:56)
Yes.

Yeah.

Lisa Conn (25:04)
A lot of people succeed having been the kid that did the group project by themselves, but it just makes everyone else feel so terrible that they're not trusted and that their skills aren't valued, which comes back to success that we were defining earlier. I feel lucky that I've seen people not do things my way and still do them well, that it's given me so many data points

Lauren Alvarez (25:12)
Yes.

Yes.

Lisa Conn (25:31)
I don't have to do it my way, it doesn't have to be done my way to be done well. And that makes me trust people. And if by the way, someone breaks your trust, you get to part ways if you want to, right? And they're probably gonna be happier somewhere else where their way of doing things is valued.

Lauren Alvarez (25:43)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yes, and I think that there are different ways of getting to the same destination. I'm always like, listen, if you take an Uber there and I take a walk and someone else rolls up on a skateboard, I literally don't care. Just get there on time and look good. And that's all that matters. And I'll learn something from the route that you took by skateboarding there. I might have never taken that side street.

Lisa Conn (25:52)
Totally.

Right, right.

Yeah, right.

A framework I love for that is naming the difference between a requirement, a tradition, and a preference. So a requirement is you have to get here at this time in this outfit looking good, feeling good. Tradition is traditionally we walk or traditionally we take a ride share. But those aren't, you know, those are, or maybe my preference is I would prefer, I don't know why I would have a preference in this situation, but maybe my preference is that

use my driver that I like to work with because I trust him, whatever it is. Like, maybe that's my preference, but you can say no. Learning from tradition, it's useful to know how things have been done in the past, they've been done successfully, but kind of keeping it focused on the requirement is so empowering for people.

Lauren Alvarez (26:49)
Mm -hmm. I love that. And I think that that's also something that we don't talk about enough is that difference. I actually saw recently there was a commentary about removing the E and DI, right? when you think about what it means to actually be inclusive, what it means to actually promote belonging,

Lisa Conn (27:02)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (27:10)
It is oftentimes about understanding that there are different ways of getting to the same destination and everyone's going to have their path, their lived experiences and the things that contribute to that. And so I think by me saying, just because I do it this way traditionally, it doesn't actually mean anything unless it becomes a requirement.

Lisa Conn (27:28)
Right, right, or unless you have no idea where to start and you wanna follow tradition, that's great. Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (27:32)
Absolutely. It could be a great starting place. It also could be a great place to learn from tradition of what didn't go right.

Lisa Conn (27:37)
Exactly, and innovate and adjust, totally.

Lauren Alvarez (27:40)
I love that. mean, let's talk a little bit about motivation because I think that in order to launch a startup, to be seen as an entrepreneur, to be a CEO, there is a level of motivation. mean, talk to me like generally speaking, what motivates you to get up in the morning? I think you're very organized. That's what I gather from our prior conversations. But are you driven by relationships, money, that success we talked about earlier, family? Like what is it for you that's motivating?

Lisa Conn (28:11)
I've been asking myself this a lot recently. I always sort of ask myself this, but post having a child, I see friends that were pregnant around the same time where suddenly their motivations have shifted and their careers are less important to them, which is, you know, totally amazing. And I've been surprised that I can simultaneously be absolutely obsessed with my daughter and love spending time with her.

Lauren Alvarez (28:17)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (28:39)
and look at photos of her before I go to bed and savor every moment while not having any desire at all to be home with her all day. And I've been asked myself, well, what's what's with you, girlfriend? Like, why are you nothing but not judging, but just why? Why are you like that? Where does your ambition come from? I'm very ambitious and I don't exactly know why.

I think that, so I don't know, let's do some therapy together. I don't know what motivates me exactly. I get bored easily. I have a ton of energy. So I wake up in the morning. I am a freakish morning person. I wake up as soon as my consciousness enters me, I'm like, let's go. I have so much energy in the morning and all day. I love solving problems. I love using my brain. I love creating things. I...

Lauren Alvarez (29:11)
Mm -hmm. Yes.

Lisa Conn (29:32)
Yeah, I just get really bored if I'm not doing things that are contributing and using my skills. I also have had enough interactions with people in the world and lived enough places to recognize the incredible privilege that I have to be in the body that I'm in, with the talents that I have, with the education that I have, with the resources that I have. And I feel some sense

responsibility to do something with those gifts, those blessings. I see the world as full of opportunity and challenges and I want desperately to contribute to them and I believe that I'm capable of contributing to them. So yeah, I don't exactly know why I'm so ambitious. There definitely is, I'm not afraid to say I care about money.

Lauren Alvarez (30:07)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (30:30)
and making money. I care about accolades and being recognized. I'm very motivated by the people around me and my responsibility to the people around me and wanting to do right by them and right for them. In our case, we have a team, we have customers, we have investors. All of those people matter a great deal to me and motivate me. But I don't know what exactly the battery is, but I've got

Lauren Alvarez (30:31)
course.

Lisa Conn (30:58)
I've got a battery that is fully charged at all times and I have no idea

Lauren Alvarez (31:02)
I love it. mean, being juiced up in that way. mean, like something about what you said, and I couldn't put a finger on it, but it made me emotional because I relate to it. And also I aspire to continue to be that way. And I think that there's an expectation, I want to say especially as a parent, that you are tired, that you are not wanting to do both. And I am so invigorated by the ability to continue to do. And for me, like there's never enough

time to do all the things that I want to do. And it doesn't make me less than it makes me more of, you know, and I think that that's a thing that I think about a lot. And the perspective you just shared is it's vulnerable and it's relatable, but it's also admirable because I think a lot of people are afraid to admit, you know, that money matters or that recognition matters. But I mean, there also is like, what are we doing this for? You know, like there, there is something that comes from it. I mean, when someone says like, I heard about like what you do because this person talked about your coaching and it did this. I'm like, my God, like I'm so

Lisa Conn (31:35)
Yeah.

Right.

Of course, right.

Lauren Alvarez (31:59)
humbled and also I kind of want to do a little hair toss and a little spin. It's a good feeling. Yeah, I should. I think talking about being a parent, I you talk about, I think you say you kick -started a widespread discussion, mean, maybe a revolution is what I'll say, of this feminist case for remote work. Because you posted a picture breastfeeding your daughter when she was a newborn during a virtual work meeting. That was a big moment.

Lisa Conn (32:03)
And you should.

I don't know about that.

Lauren Alvarez (32:26)
I don't know that you did that for the recognition or the accolade. I think you were just living your life. And so there's this accidental recognition that also kick -started this movement and something that you're now known for. Can you talk a little bit about how becoming a parent has affected your approach to your work, to your leadership style?

Lisa Conn (32:31)
Definitely.

You know, when you have a big thing happen in your life, it's honestly hard to remember what life was like before. Like how, yeah, how did I exist? How did she exist before that? Because in so many ways, I don't feel I've changed at all. And in so many ways, I feel that I have changed a tremendous amount. So how has being a parent impacted my work life? There's little ways like my schedule that actually really matter. I used to be someone who would wake up and immediately start working.

Lauren Alvarez (32:54)
Yes, all the time. That's how I feel about being a parent.

Yes.

Lisa Conn (33:19)
And now I enjoy my hour with her before the nanny comes. And that hour is really important to me and to her. And I wake up and I'm usually up before she is. So I do a bit of work in the morning and get organized. And then as soon as she wakes up, I'm thrilled to go down into her room and grab her. And we spend an hour. She eats breakfast. I eat breakfast.

I stay off my phone. I look her in the eye. We chat. I don't know what she's saying, but we do, you know, we have our little dialogue. Exactly. As she gets older, I'm sure I'll understand what she's actually trying to tell me. But we have our little chats. And there's something really meditative about doing that. Like, I don't know if without that forcing function, I would ever have changed my morning routine. I'm 35. Like I've been operating this way since I was a kid. As a kid, I would wake up at four in the morning.

Lauren Alvarez (33:52)
Yeah. Relatable, yeah.

Lisa Conn (34:14)
and like be the necklace before to match my outfit to wear to school. I've always been someone who gets going the second I wake up. So to have that forced pause for an hour is kind of miraculous and has regulated my stress in a different way. And then, know, my work day, I think that I have more patience. I'm not the most patient person, but having a child makes you more patient. I think I have more patience in my work life.

I see the humor more. chose in the early days of her, the newborn phase is really tough. Like my husband and I sort of chose to interpret everything for the lens of humor. We said we wanted it to be funny. Like everything that was gross and exhausting and stressful, we were like, let's just make this funny. And so I sort of have a lens now that I've carried into work when things are stressful. I mean, I'm not laughing at people's pain, obviously, but I try to bring a more...

Lauren Alvarez (34:56)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (35:13)
a more humorous light lens to things. And yeah, the stakes feel higher. The way that I operate, the that I show up, the example that I set for myself and for her, those stakes feel a lot higher. What about you? How do you think your work life has changed?

Lauren Alvarez (35:32)
yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think like for me, you know, it was definitely, I can relate to a lot of things with this schedule. I'm so much more flexible than I used to be because you have to be. And I would definitely say I'm type A for sure. And in my relationship with my husband, there's a great balance there. Like he's much more chill about things. He's very easy going and can go with the flow, which for a Capricorn is rare, but we'll take it. Yeah, exactly. So.

Lisa Conn (35:41)
Yeah,

Mm. I'm a Capricorn too.

Lauren Alvarez (35:58)
I think that it's actually a really amazing gift that we have that balance, but I've leaned more into relaxing through some of the things that are, you know, unchangeable. Like right now, my son Jordan is teething and he's got molars coming in. He's had chompers for a while, but those molars are tough. And like last night, he is a great sleeper. He was like trying to party, then he was sad. And we were like, let's just take a drive. And so what we do is like, we kind of go back to like what we

Lisa Conn (36:20)
Yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (36:26)
Like we used to take night drives like early in our dating days and we would always like do that. And so we just took him on a night drive. We played some music, he fell asleep, it was easier. And I think like you have to kind of give yourself that what did I do before? And then how can I adjust this? And now it's at the point where he's almost a year. It's more like we're hanging out. So I would say it's less of like that intense newborn phase, which is so intense.

Lisa Conn (36:34)
Love that. Love it.

It's so intense.

Lauren Alvarez (36:52)
Yeah, but I think also like I've just kept doing like I've just kept doing things like I launched the podcast, you know, a year ago and the day the trailer was due to drop, he was born at 37 weeks in a day, same day. So launched a baby launched a podcast, you know, and nobody, you know, it was not anything I had planned. And a couple people asked me like, well, that's kind of like weird that you had

Lisa Conn (37:00)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Love

Lauren Alvarez (37:14)
do a business thing at the same time. said, why? Don't you know who I am? This is the most on -brand thing I've ever done. It's so me. So I think also just leaning into that. And I just like the joy, the in -between moments. If I'm on calls all day, sneaking out and having a little cuddle and a laugh, and then going away, I'm grateful for our child care, for my nanny. That's a big one, right?

Lisa Conn (37:20)
Right, right.

Lauren Alvarez (37:38)
And I think like that's also something and you talked about that. I'd love to talk about it together as you shared, I think it was in a LinkedIn post about nanny guilt. you know, I think we should just give a few moments to the person that you described as Gigi's, I think you said angelic, energetic, creative nanny. And I was like, I relate. Let's talk about that experience of welcoming someone else into her world and your world.

Lisa Conn (38:01)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I have no guilt about it. The only guilt that I have is that maybe I should have guilt that I don't have guilt. I see other people feel terrible that they're not spending time with their child. And I just don't feel that way at all. I don't think love is limited. Love is not a limited resource. The more love that a child has, the better for them. The more people that she gets to interact with and learn from, the better. I'm not the only person

that is capable of cultivating her and loving her and nourishing her. And in fact, in different times, this was not the structure that we raised children with. We used to be in community where there were a lot of different people who loved and cared for and taught and engaged and nourished children. you know, having a mom that is fulfilled and happy and healthy.

Lauren Alvarez (38:43)
Right.

Lisa Conn (38:58)
is the best thing for her and working is the thing that gives me that. And so of course we're gonna have health. And of course, why not? Why wouldn't we? I have no guilt about

Lauren Alvarez (39:11)
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I 100 % agree. And it's also like additional perspective. It's like, if my plumbing in my house breaks, I'm not going to fix it. Like I hired somebody who is truly an expert at this. I learn all the time from her. I learn all the time. And she probably learns from me. you know, we exchange like all kinds of information about what kind of day he's having. But like, I also see these different facets of his personality and

He has a different relationship with her than he does with me, than he does with my husband, than he does with my in -laws. All of those relationships are unique and special. And so why not give him those opportunities? As you said, love doesn't have a limit on it. He should have all of those different engagements. And I don't want something that is like, I'm the only one who can make him happy. That's also a tremendous amount of pressure to put on myself, right? Yeah.

Lisa Conn (39:42)
Yeah.

so much pressure and not realistic and not achievable. Why would you do that to yourself?

Lauren Alvarez (40:05)
Yes, I totally, I mean, I don't know why I think people enter into the arena of feeling guilty, but yeah, I mean, I haven't had guilt. I felt grateful and I feel, you know, it goes back to having resources, having opportunities to do those things, right? And then as an HR professional, just even responding to people when we posted the job, responding to every application, doing a thorough interview process, paying fairly, all of those things. I was like, I get to like bring my professional skillset to the table.

Lisa Conn (40:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Right, right, totally. I wonder if people feel guilty or they're confusing their guilt with a longing. Like maybe you're not actually guilty because you think you're doing something wrong. So I think if you think about it, everything we're saying people would nod and agree. So maybe that feeling, that uneasy feeling isn't actually guilt, it's longing and a desire to spend more time with your child and feeling like maybe society will judge you for doing so.

Lauren Alvarez (40:41)
Yeah.

Lisa Conn (40:59)
I find the faces of the waves of feminism to be so interesting. We are definitely in, you know, kind of a post -girl boss era where a lot of women want choices to show up in the form of not having to, having the choice to be home. And a lot of women who are home with their children feeling judged for that. so I do wonder if some of the guilt that people feel maybe isn't guilt, it's sort of a longing and then a fear that if they...

Lauren Alvarez (41:02)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (41:30)
have this expensive education and student loans and a title and a career that isn't fulfilling them, that maybe they will be judged by themselves or society or the people in their lives for making that choice. I just think people should do what they want to do.

Lauren Alvarez (41:43)
Yeah, do what you want to do. And if you're not happy, go into that one year from now visualization and go to the place that you will feel most happy and work toward that. your ass off until you get there and you feel good about it. And sometimes that work is not like going to work. Sometimes that work is like doing therapy or self care or like, I'm going to start going to acupuncture or I'm going to start going for walks, like whatever those things are. But you know, very true. You can't pour from an empty cup. And I think that there's also, I'll say there's also the patriarchy, right? Of like,

Lisa Conn (41:48)
Right, right, right,

Yeah, right, exactly.

Lauren Alvarez (42:13)
people who feel there is a misconception around the inability to be both a great parent and a high performing employee, executive, founder, there is a huge misconception there. And I think that we have an obligation to shift that perspective. And for each person who kind of doesn't adhere to that misconception, we are giving a gift, I think, to other people who will have children after us. I think that is the way that I look at it. And it's like, whatever I can do,

Lisa Conn (42:22)
Right.

Lauren Alvarez (42:42)
to shatter that misconception, I will do it. I'm committed.

Lisa Conn (42:46)
I love that. Yeah. The viral LinkedIn post that you referenced earlier was really interesting to me. I read every comment. I've never done that. I don't know if that is the thing you should do for your own mental health. I think they don't advise, but I did because I was so curious. I'm in my world. I'm in my communities. I'm in my networks. That image wasn't so shocking in my context. And yeah, it was interesting to see.

Lauren Alvarez (42:56)
I think they don't advise that, but yeah. Yes.

Lisa Conn (43:15)
I would categorize this as misogyny or the patriarchy through the voice of women. There were a lot of women who were so critical of the image. There's a whole other side issue, which is not recognizing that a person is a human who's sitting there tired from having a baby two months before reading your comments. But that aside, think people, when something reaches a level of virality, people think of it as media, not as a person sharing you know.

So that this is what it is. But it was, yeah, there were people who were saying, projecting their own choices, maybe, and their own experiences or lack of experiences onto me. That, you know, the first three years are so important, you're a bad parent, you're bad mom for working. This is not a beautiful image. This is a sad image. There were definitely stories, I think I only responded to a couple, but one that I responded to was a woman who was a widow. And she was

This makes me sad because I had no choice but to go back to work because my husband died when I had my kids. It's like, well, that's not my situation. I'm sorry that you, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that it happened. It's awful. Terribly sorry that it happened, you know? But that's not my situation and my choice. So there is so much judgment. I do struggle a bit though with the trap of the role model, like the responsibility of being a role model and...

Lauren Alvarez (44:39)
Sure.

Lisa Conn (44:41)
I am, but am I and should I be? you know, what is the responsibility of doing things differently?

Lauren Alvarez (44:48)
Well, and role model to who? Role model to LinkedIn, people who are trolling and leaving comments, or role model to Gigi, and role model to your employees and the team. Yeah, exactly. So I think when we think about role model, there will always be people who don't agree with us or who see that there is something that we have that maybe they don't, or they're projecting their own sadness or insecurity. Those things will all come into play. But it's like, what can I control? How can I show up for the people who actually are going to be like,

Lisa Conn (44:53)
Yeah, right, right, right, right. My team, right, right.

Right?

Lauren Alvarez (45:17)
in my life for the long period. I think the other thing I noticed becoming a parent was like, sort of, this unplanned audit happened of like, what I realized I didn't have time for and what I realized who I couldn't give time and energy for. And that was an interesting thing that I didn't expect to happen. Like there were some friendships that went away. There were, know, family members that couldn't be a part of our life anymore. And it's that reprioritization that I think the role model.

pressure went away and it was just like, well, I'm just living my life. And if you like the way I move through the world, then come on

Lisa Conn (45:50)
Yeah, I totally have felt that. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I've gotten rid of is caring what other people think of me. I've always been, it's amazing, I've always been a very, I don't know why I was born kind of a confident person. don't have, I've never really struggled with obsessing over what people think of me, but I've been aware of it. It's been data, but I've been aware of how someone's perceiving me and I've used that information to adapt.

Lauren Alvarez (45:56)
Don't you love that?

Lisa Conn (46:17)
how I show up or how I operate or how I dress or whatever those, you whatever. But I just like, don't, I don't care at all. I do not care. You don't know me. You don't see me. I feel so satisfied with my life and my choices and my morals and the way that I am. just, I don't, I don't care. And also I know that it's not about me. You exist in your own context.

Lauren Alvarez (46:42)
Right. Yes.

Lisa Conn (46:44)
and you're seeing something or perceiving something because of you. I don't know you either. I don't know your mom. I don't know what happened to you last night and why you're perceiving me this way. So I feel so much less judgmental of others. And I think as a result of that, I don't care. I don't experience people's judgment the way that I used to.

Lauren Alvarez (47:07)
Yeah, and also it's like you can affect me. I don't, you know, it's like that, you know, think it's really probably up there, favorite quote. Coco Chanel said, I don't care what you think of me, I don't think of you at all. And while that might be a bit like on the nose to say, it lives in perpetuity with me because it's like, that is truly the way that I want to continue to move. And of course there will be people who care that we care about what they think, but.

Lisa Conn (47:20)
Right? So good. So, no, it's so good.

Lauren Alvarez (47:34)
that's reserved for a very small handful of people like my husband and my child and a couple of other choice people in my life. But besides that, like, it's okay. You cannot agree with me. You cannot like me. I don't need to be liked. And that's the thing that I think I was liberated from. The older I've gotten, the more I just don't have that need to be liked. And it would really like sit with me, you know, it'd be something I'd think about a lot. would fester and it'd be like, like even in work environments, you know, of course, like,

Lisa Conn (48:00)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (48:03)
somebody in my team or I had a boss who didn't like me. And at some point you realize, well, I can either live in this or I can like go somewhere else. I can make a move, I can make a change or I can just kind of shut them off. And all of those things are really empowering once you start to move that way and live that way. So like, I really believe in, you know, kind of taking control of the things that you can and letting some shit go if you can't control

Lisa Conn (48:26)
And why wouldn't anyone like you? My parents used to say this thing that, I don't know if this is good advice, but it's a thing they would always say, which is, if someone doesn't like you, they're wrong.

Lauren Alvarez (48:35)
I've actually heard that myself from my parents growing up, so I think they're onto something. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, and also, I don't have space for that. It's just like, we have limited hours. We have limited hours in the day Exactly. Exactly. I mean, let's talk. I want to make sure that we touch on sort of the remote -first virtual environment. You recently talked about why virtual meetings aren't inclusive, and you had some really great findings.

Lisa Conn (48:39)
I know, and I agree with them.

Yeah, we have limited hours and energy.

Lauren Alvarez (49:04)
I think that it would be great to hear about some of the ways that people can take action. Maybe just even like top three things you can do to be more inclusive in those virtual settings.

Lisa Conn (49:15)
Number one, have an agenda. Actually, before, that's number two. Number one, don't have meetings that you don't need to have. Audit the calendar. Most things don't need to be meetings. So take a look at that and only meet if it's necessary and if it's important. Okay, so number one, audit your meetings. Number two, have an agenda. And number three, have a facilitation plan that is attached to your agenda.

Lauren Alvarez (49:16)
Love.

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Conn (49:37)
And plug for Gatheround this is exactly what we have productized and solved. So don't have to be an expert on these things to be able to implement these best practices. So have fewer meetings, have the ones that you have do them well. Why is an agenda important? People need to know what's coming in order to feel safe participating. My background in this sort of polarization, peace building world ties directly to this. When you're in an environment where you feel uncomfortable, your body enters a fight or flight mode.

And one of the ways to ease that fight or flight response is through certainty and knowing what to expect. So giving people an agenda isn't just about using your time well and being efficient with the time. It actually eases people's nerves and allows them to engage and to participate. So having an agenda for a million reasons is super important. And then the facilitation kind of concept. Be thoughtful about giving people the right ways to participate. What information do they need to be able to participate in this agenda item?

Do they need context? Do they need time? Do they need the question framed in a particular way? Running a meeting is a form of facilitation and it's an art, it's a science, it's a skillset. Gatheround is designed to help you use all those skills and apply that art and that science. So for instance, if you wanna ask people's opinions on something and you hear crickets, maybe it's because they need three minutes of silent reflection or journaling.

to think about and gather your thoughts before being asked to speak. I think if you build that into your agenda, into your facilitation, you will find that people who you don't normally hear from are more comfortable and more able to participate and to be heard and to be seen. There's other things like, know, Gatheround has a feature called group share, which I really love because it gives people equal time to speak no matter who they are. So we all have this.

Lauren Alvarez (51:30)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Conn (51:33)
dynamic where there are some people who talk for 20 minutes and people who don't talk enough and it actually teaches you a about yourself. Like am I someone who takes up a lot of space? Am I someone who doesn't take up enough space? You sort of learn those things when you have a structured way of having your time kept and your time met. So I could go on and on, but one, have fewer meetings, two, have agendas, three, have a plan for how you're going to facilitate your

Lauren Alvarez (51:54)
I really love that. And I mean, I'll plug Gatheround because I'm such a fan. And I think like one of the, I'll say two favorite product features that come to mind right away. One is that there is that fade to black for group share. So if you haven't done Gatheround before, when you're on, you know, and you're given opportunity to speak, it's a sad amount of time. And then it will sort of sweetly sweep you off the stage if you are going over. And I think it's actually a really, it's a subtle but really powerful.

Lisa Conn (52:15)
Yeah, right.

Lauren Alvarez (52:20)
thing that actually shows that we need to keep things moving to create space for other people to speak up and leading a team during the pandemic. I think it was so interesting to see my introvert started to really shine because we started to create equal space for people to use the hand raise tool to set the tone of what we were gonna talk about that day to give people space to just share highs and lows, what's going on in your life. And I think like it created space where maybe they start out.

Lisa Conn (52:25)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lauren Alvarez (52:46)
somebody who is more inclined to be introverted might not share much about their high of the week. But six weeks into leading those meetings, they're sharing really personal things and actually getting vulnerable with the team, which creates trust, it creates space for people to build those relationships. And I think Gatheround does a really good job of giving people space to share. My other favorite feature we haven't talked about yet is the roll up that comes at the end because I spend a lot of time facilitating meetings and I end up sending a recap email at the end. But this actually, if you...

Lisa Conn (52:58)
Right, right.

Lauren Alvarez (53:15)
preset the agenda, it'll let you know everything from like who you met with in the breakout groups to, you know, what was discussed, you know, who led the meeting, who the guest speaker was, there's links in there. I'm kind of obsessed with that part because it saves a lot of time. And it also was like a great reminder of like what I just spent an hour doing.

Lisa Conn (53:34)
okay, you're gonna be very excited about something that we are releasing very soon, which is using AI. I don't know how people feel about AI, but it's an incredible application where we're summarizing the meeting. So you can now turn on transcription. And because we know the prompts and the amount of time and who said what, we're able to produce these really nuanced summaries for you. And you can ask it different questions and you can ask it about who spoke and various things. So very soon we will be adding.

Lauren Alvarez (53:42)
I'm for it, absolutely.

Lisa Conn (54:03)
a sort of a meeting summary that's even more robust and actionable in addition to what you already see and love. Coming soon.

Lauren Alvarez (54:12)
I love that. Yeah, that's amazing. Great, feature plug. mean, what things are gathered around working hard to change now for virtual meeting environments? Because we've been doing this. I mean, you were perfectly timed for going into a pandemic when you started your company. Couldn't have foreseen that unless you have a psychic that I don't know about. Right, exactly. And I think also, there's kind of the iterative part of being in a product company and a startup. So is there anything you can share that's coming up or that are areas of focus?

Lisa Conn (54:27)
No, didn't know, didn't know.

Yeah. Yeah. So I will preview a thing that we are about to start piloting that may or may not work. So this may or may not ever live outside of our pilot partners, but we are really interested in taking the concepts, the technology, the format, and actually applying it to in -person meetings. So we started the company really focused on connection virtually. I built incredible product for that, beloved, used by lots of people.

Over the last couple of years, we sort of adjusted to also work really well for what I call collaboration. So more kind of hardcore meetings, brainstorms, kickoffs, retrospectives, et cetera, built a bunch of stuff to support that. And the sort of format and the concept of productizing and democratizing facilitation, helping people to be more inclusive and use your time better to achieve better outcomes and make people feel more seen and heard doesn't just exist virtually. And

Lauren Alvarez (55:14)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Conn (55:37)
We're excited about experimenting with taking our product, our technology, our design, and giving you kind of a co -pilot when you're running meetings in person. The first use case that works for us is off -sites. So we'll work with some pilot partners to see if we can help you design your off -site agenda and have a structure to help you facilitate a better in -person. What that can lead to if it works is a true hybrid solution. You know, I think that there's online, there's offline, and there's everything in between and more and

That's how people exist. So we'll see if it works, how it goes. But that's one of the really kind of interesting, exciting things that we're building this quarter. We're also doing some integration stuff like with Slack and some other products, a few more AI things, et cetera, et cetera.

Lauren Alvarez (56:22)
That's super cool. Yeah, and I love that you touched on the hybrid settings. And I think if we can talk about that for a moment, I think that that to me is the most challenging thing. have a lot of companies working on RTO, going back to the office. They're trying to figure out what's our purpose. When do we get to there in person? When are we virtual? What does hybrid mean? What are the radiuses? mean, challenges are kind of endless. But in your opinion, what can companies do to make hybrid environments more inclusive?

Lisa Conn (56:30)
I agree.

my gosh, I'm kind of anti -hybrid, but maybe that's not right. Maybe that's not right. mean, yeah, I don't know if there is a way at the moment to have an effective session, meeting, conversation, when some people are in person and some people are virtual. So the advice that I give, which isn't the best advice, is that everyone should be on their own device. So if there are some people that are in an office together, still have them take up equal space in the meeting as the people that are virtual.

Lauren Alvarez (56:50)
Yeah, talk about

Lisa Conn (57:18)
But I've not seen a lot of hybrid meetings work well. What works well is fully in person or fully virtual. In terms of sort of like hybrid RTO, I think hybrid means so many different things. Like hybrid within a company might mean some people are allowed to go to an office and some people don't ever go to an office. It might mean everyone goes to a office X days a week, but those are different offices.

I think that we are entering a phase where there are very few companies where every person is in the same place as the others every day. so hybrid is kind of whatever that means is the new normal. And hybrid really is digital first. Like it kind of is virtual first. When I was at Facebook, we were not hybrid. We were totally in office culture. And yet 90 % of my meetings would be in a conference room on a screen.

Lauren Alvarez (58:06)
Yes.

Lisa Conn (58:15)
talking to someone two buildings down the way or in a different office in a different state. We never called that hybrid, but it kind of was. So I like the term flexible. And I think just being kind of digital first in the technology, the processes, the tools that people use is just inevitable as the future. again, it's not just about where you work. It's also about when you work and how you work and being flexible in all those ways is where we're going.

Lauren Alvarez (58:45)
I think that that makes a lot of sense. And I think also just considering like, what's your why, right? Like I am always like, well, what's your why? Like, why do you actually want people to come in? And what does it mean to you? Because if it means that you're filling the office that you leased, that's very different than if it means that you truly believe that in -person collaboration or that you're building a physical product, hardware that is so specific that you need people to touch it, it needs to be tangible. Say your piece, because I think that people really need to hear the why.

Lisa Conn (59:04)
Right.

Right. Yeah.

Lauren Alvarez (59:12)
And then it feels more justifiable to them. I I don't think that going in person is a punishment, but I don't think that we need to necessarily be ever back to five days a week. I really can't see a world that that would ever make sense. And so, yeah, go ahead.

Lisa Conn (59:23)
I mean, this is tied to our tradition preference requirement. If the requirement is a high, highly productive, efficient culture, cool. Let's name that requirement. If the tradition is we used to come into an office and maybe that's even the CEO's preference, like naming those things. What I hear so much that I just don't understand is I hear HR leaders were

Lauren Alvarez (59:35)
Mm -hmm.

Lisa Conn (59:51)
their entire job for a quarter is the RTO policy. it's like, the policy, figure out how to get people in the offices, that's the requirement is the office? Like, why aren't you spending your time enabling your managers to set better goals and to coach your team and to provide more accountability? Like if we focus on that as the end state, and maybe an office is a really helpful tool to do that, absolutely. Perhaps there is a project or a work stream or a team.

that needs to be together in person for psychological safety, for collaboration, for brainstorming, for culture, for whatever reason, then office as a tool is great, but the office is the end? What that means is that people are spending so much time and energy just focused on enabling that instead of what actually matters, is whatever it is, productivity, efficiency, collaboration, retention, innovation.

That's the why isn't the office. The why is what you're trying to accomplish with your culture and your team and your company. And perhaps an office is a tool. Absolutely wonderful, great. But like focus on the point, which is not the office for the sake of the office.

Lauren Alvarez (1:00:50)
See ya.

Yes.

And I totally agree with that. And I think that there's a certain nostalgia that people have for that, we'll call it before times, before what it was like. But our lives have changed, our world has changed, and we have to also evolve with it. So I think that that is right size. And I'm very interested to see where this conversation goes in the next few years. mean, as an HR person, yes, I've had people be like, our RTO policy. And I'm like, it's not the office. It's the reason. And those are the questions that are going to come up. It's never going to be like, why an office? It's going to be

give me all the reasons and what this is going to give me. People just want to understand the benefit. How does this benefit

Lisa Conn (1:01:34)
And we're not that far from people who've never experienced in office life being the next leaders. Like the people that graduated in 2020, they're 26 now. That's not that young. That is not that young. And people who graduated in 2020, who are now 26, have probably never really, they never were part of the before times. They never really experienced in office life. And being 26 is young to be a CEO, but it's not that young.

Lauren Alvarez (1:01:41)
I know.

I know. Yeah.

Lisa Conn (1:02:01)
Being 30 is not that young, right? So we're not that far away from the sort of next generation of leaders who have only ever experienced work this way, being the decision makers, being the authority, being the culture designers. And I can't imagine the office being the headline.

Lauren Alvarez (1:02:16)
Absolutely.

Yeah, no, it's hidden somewhere in the body, but it's definitely not the headline. I mean, I know we're coming up on time. I think there's like a million things we kind of talked about more. I would love to Share with our listeners, where can people go to learn more about you as Lisa Kahn? Gather around as a tool, as something they might want to try out. What can we plug today?

Lisa Conn (1:02:26)
It's not the headline.

gatherround .com, G -A -T -H -E -R -O -U -N -D, so the single R that is shared between the words gather and round. If you go to the other spelling, it's a homeschool in summer, so that's not us. We are the technology company gatherround .com. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. Find me, it's just my name, LisaKhan, C -O -N -N. I post silly things on Instagram stories if you wanna see my daughter being silly and my just incredibly loving and supportive husband being hilarious.

come follow me and see what we're up to over there. And we host a bunch of community events on Gatheround. That's Lauren and how we met. So if you go to our website, you'll see community events. host many in a month. We have meetups for parents. We have meetups for a variety of different functions. So if you're in HR with a bunch of meetups for you, we invite amazing guest speakers to come and we have one very special community event coming up. maybe you can talk about that one.

Lauren Alvarez (1:03:39)
Well, yes, we are going to do a live kickoff virtual launch party for this new season of Don't Fuck This Up. And we're going to host it on Gatheround. We're going to do a deeper dive with Lisa here. And we're going to talk and answer your questions that you can submit ahead of time. And we're going to get those answered. So I think it's going to be a really engaging conversation, as this one was, too. And what's really fun is that you'll get to experience Gatheround and probably some exciting YouTube videos in the beginning, things like that. I won't spoil.

Lisa Conn (1:04:08)
Yeah, we'll take a photo. It'll be great

Lauren Alvarez (1:04:10)
It'll be great. Absolutely. I mean, Lisa, what is one final thought you want to share with our listeners today? Leave them with a little more soul.

Lisa Conn (1:04:19)
Do you? Listen to yourself, seriously, engage with yourself, listen to yourself. And if you can't, if that voice isn't clear, work on clarifying it. Engage with your body, engage with your inner thoughts, let that voice be louder and louder and listen to yourself. You know yourself, you matter, your needs, your opinions, your talents, your perspective, it all really matters. So do you and listen to yourself.

Lauren Alvarez (1:04:45)
Yeah, I really love that. And that's just one more thing I'll be carrying with me today. Perfect. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been so special to have you on and I really appreciate your openness and just sharing what you shared with our listeners. Amazing. Well, this has been Don't Fuck This Up, the podcast answering the ultimate question, how the fuck did you get that cool job? I'm your host Lauren Alvarez and we will talk to you next Wednesday.

Lisa Conn (1:04:59)
Thank you.