Poirot Pals
Join hosts Caitlin Morris and Chad Lind as they endeavor to read, research, and discuss all thirty-three Hercule Poirot mystery novels.
To get the most out of this audio book club, listen to the pre-read episodes before you read each book. Then, process your thoughts with Chad and Caitlin during each debrief episode.
Join us as we read in real-time, or listen and read at your leisure.
Poirot Pals
Debrief: The Murder Of Roger Ackroyd (Chapters 7&8)
WATCH OUT FOR SPOILERS! THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!!
Caitlin and Chad discuss chapters seven and eight of Agatha Christie'sThe Murder Of Roger Ackroyd.
Ever wondered what happens when the world's greatest detective meets a seemingly straightforward country doctor? Join us as we dissect the captivating interaction between Dr. Shepard and Hercule Poirot in Chapter 7 of Agatha Christie's "The Murder of Roger Ackroyd." You'll learn how Flora Ackroyd's revelation about Poirot’s true identity leaves Dr. Shepard and his sister mortified, shifting the investigation into high gear. We'll explore Dr. Shepard's mixed feelings about involving Poirot and how Flora’s fervent belief in Ralph’s innocence drives the momentum of the case.
Prepare to be on the edge of your seat as we revisit the crime scene with Poirot’s psychological play. Witness Poirot's clever manipulation as he has Dr. Shepard reenact the murder, subtly probing his mind in a tactic reminiscent of an "if I had done it" scenario. Inspector Raglan's bold theories come into focus, with intriguing elements like a mysterious phone call and a train to Liverpool that shift suspicion towards Ralph. Our discussion highlights the intricate layers of Poirot's investigative methods and Shepard's internal struggles, making us question the true nature of confidence and truth.
Intriguing clues and red herrings abound as we dissect the nuances of Poirot's investigation. Discover how seemingly minor details and cryptic remarks reveal deeper layers of the mystery. We'll unravel the potential motives behind characters like Raymond and the misleading clues involving Mrs. Russell and her son. The complex relationship between Poirot and Dr. Shepard, marked by admiration and subtle suspicion, adds another layer to the narrative. Tune in to see how Poirot’s keen eye for the unnoticed sets the stage for unraveling this tangled web of secrets and relationships.
Theme Music: The Black Cat by Aaron Kenny.
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I am doing so well, am doing so well. Do you ever have that feeling when you are about to introduce two people that you think will get along really well and you're kind of excited in anticipation like what's going to happen?
Chad:Yes, I've had that happen to me before. Yes, definitely.
Caitlin:And did they end up liking each other, or were they mortal enemies?
Chad:I'm going to say this has probably happened three or four times and it's about a 50-50.
Caitlin:The reason why I mention this is because we are about to have Dr Shepard, our murderer, reintroduce himself to Poirot, but now knowing Poirot's true identity as the world's greatest detective true identity as the world's greatest detective.
Chad:So yeah, this is a bit of matchmaking, the kind of matchmaking where everyone is going to pretend to like each other for a really long time yeah, a stunningly long time, but then there will be a definitive break.
Caitlin:Well, let's get into it. Chapter seven. Oh, and just in case people are like what is happening? This is the murder of Roger Ackroyd debrief. We're about we're nearly halfway through, I'd say, and we're on chapter seven. I learn my neighbor's profession Subtitle. Oh, no Other subtitle. Let's all suspect Ralph, I think.
Chad:Yes, wow, very well done thank you I'm going to read a very brief, almost pointlessly brief, synopsis of this. Um, but just so I learn my neighbor's profession. Chapter 7 flora akroyd visitsepard and his sister. In the morning Flora wants Dr Shepard to accompany her while she goes and visits the funny little man to enlist his help in finding her uncle's murderer. Because the funny little man is not a hairdresser, he's the world's most famous detective, hercule Poirot. And just so you know, poirot takes the case.
Caitlin:What if he was like no? And then the book just ends and we have like hundreds of blank pages.
Chad:Right, or just like photos of him of his hands on vegetable marrows and trying to garden and stuff.
Caitlin:It just devolves into, like a photo essay of his time in King's Abbot, his scrapbook, yes that's it, the Poirot scrapbook.
Caitlin:I like that alternate universe, that alternate reality. But we have a book. We know Poirot takes the bait. Shepard is having a drama hangover, I would say, where the last night was so full of drama that he caused. He's avoiding Caroline and he's just like kind of going about going about his day even though his best friend has been killed and his other best friend is missing. You know. He gets home, caroline is like, oh my gosh, flora Ackroyd is here and he says I concealed my surprise as best I could. He's just like, oh God, okay. So like here's one little cog Little, does he know, like the entire system is about to explode. So yeah, so she's basically like, hey, I really want to see your neighbor. And he's like why do you want to go see my neighbor?
Chad:Your hair looks fine.
Caitlin:Yeah, it's really funny because Caroline is surprised too. She says to see that funny little man and Flora's like, yeah, you know who he is. And they're like, oh yeah, we think he might be a hairdresser. And Flora's eyes open wide. So she's like you guys are so dumb, which is probably like so mortifying for both of them. Right, all they want to do is both be right. They are both wrong. All they want to do is both be right. They are both wrong. No snarky comments from either one of them, because when people love to be right, nothing will silence you more than being wrong. And there's nothing funny about it, of course. This is why he's Hercule Poirot. They say he's done the most wonderful things, just like detectives do in books. And then we also learn and this is also kind of like double oh no, is that Poirot is in King's Abbot because of Ackroyd? They were good friends Because we have the setup of the comedy of the. He's not a hairdresser, he's a famous detective. That soothes us, I think, as readers, into being like how funny.
Caitlin:It kind of helps us pass over the fact that there could be anything else that was wrong.
Chad:There's just this weird feeling of like him setting his plan into even further into motion with this new information, but also being like God, let's not go over there. How about we don't bother? The greatest detective in the world.
Caitlin:Yeah, he's busy with his marrows. And then also, flora reveals for the first time that Shepard has lied to us. She's calling out Shepard. She's like I think that you suspect him and I think that you're protecting him. And why did you go to the three boars then? And we get this line where he says I was momentarily silenced. I hoped that visit of mine would remain unnoticed. Flora then, though, kind of saves Shepard because she's like you know Ralph better than anyone. You know that he's innocent and Shepard-.
Chad:Which is true.
Caitlin:Yeah, exactly. And Shepard is like are you sure we want the truth.
Chad:He's basically saying neither of us want the truth, but for different reasons, which is horrifying.
Caitlin:Yeah. And then there's this really great creepy moment too, where Caroline is like well, of course Ralph didn't do it, he has such nice manners. But then, as an aside to his reader, shepard says I wanted to tell Caroline that large numbers of murderers have nice manners.
Chad:Shepard is so in the moment he's reading the room. It's weird that he's so like we're not going over there. And then, once Perrault takes the case, he totally acquiesces to everything.
Caitlin:That's really interesting. I hadn't even picked up on just how inconsistent his motivations are throughout the whole thing. If you did step back and you just looked at this, you know, before the ending is revealed, you'd just be like, what is this guy doing? And I think the motivations are so much dictated not by this person, but what we expect the formula of the story to be, that it's like, well, he's following the formula we don't really have to ask about, like why he's doing whatever he's doing. He's just following Poirot, he's following the mystery. We'd mistake him for the fly on the wall.
Chad:Right.
Caitlin:This whole chapter is just so full of dramatic irony. There are just so many moments. So Poirot's like, okay, okay, okay, catch me up, tell me the whole story. So Poirot's like Dr Shepard knows more than I do, which is just so rich and so, so wonderful. So then we get these really interesting moments where, again, it makes sense the way he's saying it if he's trying to do his best to help absolve his friend, but it makes way more sense if he's trying to cover his tracks. He says I plunged into a careful narrative embodying all the facts I've previously set down. And I'm like, okay, asshole, he's not saying I said everything that happened. He's not saying I said all the facts. He's saying I said everything that I've just told you. And it's infuriating.
Caitlin:Also, the scene is so interesting. So interesting too because he is just given this center stage for a moment to like reveal himself to poro. He's making things up, he is weaving this web. It's one of the things where, like, the more someone talks, the more they expose themselves. And so it's interesting too, like we could read this scene as Shepard gaining a lot of false confidence because we know who Poirot is and so, yeah, it's just.
Caitlin:It's just one of those things where, like as soon as you start bouncing around between people's heads and thinking like what do they know at this point? What do they know about the other person? I mean, shepard says this story is a kaleidoscope and I'd say 100% it is. There are just things reflecting and so many different shards and shapes and this scene is definitely kind of feels that way. It has that intensity about it. So Poirot's like sure, let's go. And very interestingly, he's like Flora, you can go home, but Shepard, why don't you come with me? That gives us. We're like, oh, yay, like you said before, it's like, oh, poirot, hastings, at it again. Poirot has a pal. But really I think Poirot's like I want to see what this guy does. We meet another little police team. It's another little police club. We have Inspector Davis, colonel Melrose, who's the chief constable, and we have Inspector Ragland from Cranchester, because it's kind of like the local cops versus the big city police officer.
Chad:I think that's what Ragland is Someone who, I think, just assumes an air of authority because of being from a larger, busier place.
Caitlin:Yeah, that's what I mean. He kind of like outranks them. Christie always puts this in. There's a bit of tension between the group of police. It's never like we are all aligned, we all agree with each other and we see this right away. Like Melrose, the chief constable, and Ragland, they're annoyed that Poirot was there, but Davis is kind of enjoying it and so it kind of becomes Guaro Davis against Melrose Ragland, and they call him. They're like we don't need any amateurs. You had your heyday. Yes, we acknowledge that you have this great resume and reputation, but isn't your time done? Aren't you a little old?
Chad:This is such an interesting thing because it's kind of been in every book. It's almost like this artificial attempt at lowering the bar, but we don't expect the bar to ever be lowered, no. So it's just weird to me that, like in every book, that's like the police are like God damn it. This guy is such a Although. Perrault really does a great job of smoothing things over this time. Yeah, he's very. Yeah, you can tell he's been doing this for a while, longer than since Lynx.
Caitlin:Exactly. You know, part of me is like oh, is this just kind of the dance that Poirot has to do in every book? That makes us be like we're reading a Poirot book? If we didn't have it it wouldn't be Poirot, or, and I think maybe it does become a little like rote after a while.
Caitlin:But in this book I think it's interesting that he does this whole flattery dance with the police officers, because it's almost like he's showing Shepard. He's like look at how I can manipulate people. And this is where we have the tension between those two knowledge systems, right. But we also have now, you know like how in Lynx we called it like a detective off, right, you know these two detectives, and in this one I'm calling it a deception off Poirot versus Shepard. No one is telling the truth, no one is showing their complete hand At any given moment. They're both concealing something and we're just like, literally this kind of like kicks off this big dance between the two. The game has started. Let's all lie to each other constantly and like who's going to be the better liar? And of course it's a deceiver and it's Paro. Okay, we're in case solving mode now. The fingerprints on the dagger don't match Parker or Shepard or Raymond. Shepard does not react, but we can imagine that he's breathing this huge sigh of relief. But that is such another like subtle, little soothing way to just throw us off by ditching Parker, shepard and Raymond and like bucketing them all together. Us off by ditching Parker, shepard and Raymond and like bucketing them all together. It's not like Shepard, you are no longer a suspect, it's like look at all these guys didn't do it.
Caitlin:We learn that Ralph left the three boards at nine and was last seen at 930. So that puts him in the window of when he still could have killed his stepfather. And again we know that Shepard has engineered all of this. The police are about to go like test Ralph's boots against the footprints and he's like perfect. So then they go to like compare the footprints. And this is such a fun moment because Poro is like I don't really want to go do the footprints, I'm the least interested in the footprints, which is so funny, because in both other books he's like the most interesting thing is the footprints in the flower beds. And so now he's like yeah, I don't. So like there is this fun conversation between what's happened before and what's happening now that's great yeah this chapter, man, it's got so much.
Caitlin:They return to the scene of the crime. Again fascinating that the only person poor wants to bring is shepherd. And poor he's so sneaky here he's like let's reenact the crime. Melrose, can you sit in the chair where Ackroyd was murdered and Shepard? Can you, because you're a doctor? Can you show me what a stabbing would look like? Where would this killer have stood? So he's just basically having Shepard recreate the crime, which, psychologically, I'm just so curious. What is happening in Shepard's mind?
Chad:Exactly the feeling that I got reading it was that he's going to just do whatever Perrault wants and act as if Perrault is being upfront and honest with his kind of you're a doctor, show me how this is done. But looking at from the what you just said, yeah, it's like perot could be playing him real early on.
Caitlin:it's a real oj situation yeah, exactly if I had done it. I just feel like this chapter is so rich in layers and it's just fun to read and reread and just see all, like I said before, like all the different realities Poirot goes through, then this whole imaginary. He's like trying to work out what happened and he's like I think I think Ackroyd like let someone in and that's why we have the locked room mystery, and then that person left and came back. And so it's great because, like he's half right, yes, shepard did leave and come back. And so you just have to like he's half right, yes, shepard did leave and come back. And so you just have to imagine he's like sweating.
Chad:It's almost like he's got it backwards.
Caitlin:Yeah, and he's closer than everyone else. Then we get Melrose coming in and he's like, okay, like I have this new piece of information. The call to Dr Shepard came in from the station and a couple minutes later a train to Liverpool left and so they're like Ralph, if we're going with a Ralph thing. He called from the station and then escaped to Liverpool and so Shepard, he's been thrown off, but he's like they have taken the bait. This is exactly what I want them to think.
Caitlin:So you know again, he doesn't say anything, he just ends with Melrose's dialogue. We just get that and no processing. Usually he ends or begins a chapter by like doing something weird in a hallway, like calming his nerve, avoiding someone, but yeah, so he just doesn't say anything. But you have to imagine that in that white space is this quiet little like victory dance in his head. So I love this one. And this reminds me I had this old boss in one of my first big adult jobs and he was kind of a kook. He would do this thing where he would say about certain people not as a compliment he would be like that person is very confident and the subtext is that the confidence is very unwarranted. It's unearned.
Caitlin:Yeah, you'd say, oh, so-and-so very confident, and you kind of just knew what that meant. And so chapter eight, Inspector Raglin is confident. It just took me back to that where he feels confident. But whether that is backed up is to be determined.
Chad:Very, very, very brief synopsis Poirot and the police discuss the odd phone call placed to Dr Shepard's home the night of the murder and other details of the evening we learn of Inspector Ragland's methods and note-taking abilities.
Caitlin:So yeah, I've been calling them in my notes, actually the investigation crew, because they are. They're a little crew now. Poirot is very interested in the phone call. You know, melrose is like why would he call it all? It's so weird. And Poirot's like but there was a reason. And they're like, oh, but why, why, why, why. And he's like when we know that we will know everything, then we get a little bit of an oh no from Shepard. There was something almost indescribable in the way he said those last words. I felt that he was looking at the case from some peculiar angle of his own and what he saw I could not tell.
Chad:Like there's something about it where it's very much like none of this is adding up. This doesn't make sense, so here's something that will definitively point to the killer.
Caitlin:Exactly, yeah. And also he's like whatever obscure purpose this has, someone has done this for such a specific reason that there's no way we could know that without knowing who did it. But then we also again we get everything is equally and doubly. Just pointing to Ralph thing is equally and doubly. Just pointing to Ralph. Quarrow's like we assume that it's Ralph. At the train station the killer is probably really familiar with the lay of this land and just like how the building works and where the window is. And so again fits with Ralph, also fits with Shepard. So yeah, so this chapter just like drops all sorts of little fun juicy hints that were not meant to really think about.
Caitlin:Quarrow's like hey Raymond, hey Parker, you know, because they're the ones really familiar with the house and really familiar with Ackroyd's schedule. He's like have any strangers visited recently? Could they have been like scoping out, you know if it is an outsider. Could they have been like figuring out the lay of the land? An outsider, could they have been like figuring out the lay of the land. And Parker's like well, they did have a visitor from the Dictaphone company visit, but that's really it, and he hadn't really made a decision yet about whether he was going to buy one. Poirot is kind of like Raymond has a window into Ackroyd's life that no one else does. Maybe he's been hearing something. Only these walls could speak and it's so good. He says a tongue is not enough.
Caitlin:They would also have to have ears and eyes, but to be sure that these dead things he touched the top of the bookcase as he spoke are always dumb To me. They speak, sometimes Chairs, tables. They have their message and then Shepard goes. What message I cried. What have they said to you today? That specific I cried is so out of character. He's been so quiet, he's been so smooth and you can just. There's this urgency that comes out of nowhere.
Chad:Right, and also you can also read it, or at least I read it the first time. Right, and also you can also read it, or at least I read it the first time. Is his frustration being this old guy has lost it. He's talking about furniture, talking to him. Why did we put him on this case? I do want to just quickly go back, because Perrault plays around with suspecting Raymond. He's so efficient, but after learning that he doesn't gamble, perrault dismisses that line of thought.
Chad:But this does tell us that Perrault is sniffing out blackmail because he was. As soon as he realizes Raymond doesn't gamble, then he knows Raymond's not in debt. Yeah, so he's thinking about debt. He's thinking about is someone blackmailing someone because they're in financial distress, and could that be a motive?
Caitlin:Yeah, and then we get like Raglan's like well, okay, okay, let me show you. I've, you know, written everything down and I have this list of who was in what room and where the servants were and whatever. And Poirot's like, yeah, that's a really great complete list, but it doesn't really solve anything. And so then you know, like he kind of lets Raglan continue with his idea. But Poirot is really focusing in on that call from the station and in that moment too, his eyes are shining green. We know, when he gets his eyes that are shining green like a cat, we know that he's right, he's onto something, he sees something no one else does. And in that moment he kind of questions the whole Raglan theory.
Caitlin:And Poro is like oh, shepard, it's so interesting that you've been kind of quietly following me this whole time. They're like oh, we're going to go to the summer house to explore these footprints. And Poro's like you must have indeed been sent from the good God to replace my friend Hastings. He said with a twinkle, and we know that twinkles are always a bit sinister from Poirot, but it's easy to forget. I observe that you do not quit my side. How say you, dr Shepard? Shall we investigate that summer house. It interests me.
Chad:That's so fascinating, I think for myself there is this kind of almost need to, the first time that I'm reading the book, to feel like Poirot made a mistake. Retiring Perrault really, really misses Hastings. Perrault is a sad, lonely old man and none of those things are true except the first one, the Retirement.
Caitlin:Yeah.
Chad:But I remember reading those other two books and it's very obvious that while Perrault has a like for Hastings, it's not from a sense of respect. To a certain extent he's pulling all the strings in that relationship. The twinkle in his eye could almost be seen as a nostalgic sort of like you're my friend.
Caitlin:Yeah.
Chad:And it could then also be the exact opposite, which is what you just said. It's interesting that you're following me around so much, gotta love.
Caitlin:Poro, he knows, he just knows, and we don't, we do not.
Chad:There's the teacher.
Caitlin:He knows and we don't. We do not. There's the teacher he knows and we don't. Um, so they go to the summer house and this is a great little like red herring setup. All of this has to do with mrs russell and her son, but it could be anything. And so we get a scrap of stiff white cambric and says like, oh my God, I need to find out what this is. It's like our word for chambray now, which is that kind of like denim-like but lighter fabric comes from that. I think I was texting you when I was doing these notes. I was like suddenly I'm buying all these chambray dresses.
Chad:My favorite thing is the messages that you send that if people were not to know that we did this podcast, they'd be like what the hell is going on? Because sometimes you said things with no context. I'm shopping for this. Checking out that I'm like, oh great, it's so funny.
Caitlin:Yeah, we can. Just at some point we can make our own scrapbook called Out of Context Text Messages from Poirot Pals. That will be our first coffee table book that we publish as Poirot Pals.
Chad:Please tell me that we're going to publish a coffee table book that has only photo recreations of text messages.
Caitlin:That's all it's going to be.
Chad:No nature, no cute pets, no nothing, just words.
Caitlin:Just words out of context. That's what makes it fun, so get ready for that, people. We'll build a website 2025. Yes, so this fabric, though, was used for laces because it's kind of heavier, but it's like super versatile, which I think is kind of smart because, in terms of class, I have the feeling it could be like a high-low fabric. It could be from any type of dress If we were to pick a certain scrap of fabric. That was particularly ambiguous. I think cambric is a good choice. Should we get our substat going where we write substantial things? I could write an essay about the history of cambric. So get ready, world. They also find a goose quill. Who knew the goose quills were used for taking drugs back in the day? We'll find that out later.
Chad:That was a new one Yep, and I read Keith Richards biographies.
Caitlin:No goose quills.
Chad:No goose quills, Okay Well you know he's still.
Caitlin:He still has a couple of years left to try new things. Um, so, basically, it ends with clues, clues, clues. We're away from the house, we're on another trail, we're about to go through a mega red herring fest Because, in order to just like keep the book going, it's backstory central now, where, like all of these hidden relationships, love interests, family members come out of the woodwork so that everybody can be a liar for Poirot to then yell at.
Chad:So what needs to happen is that unless, like you said before, this is just going to be a long slog to arresting Ralph.
Caitlin:Yeah.
Chad:There needs to be red herrings now. Yeah, there needs to be misdirection, and I'm just not going to go back, not going to say the name of it anymore, but there's a couple of books that preceded this one where now you are thinking, after reading those, that maybe we don't know even a third of this story, and now we're going to get these backstories and maybe there's going to be a case from 20 years ago, but none of that happens. These red herrings are like you said. I honestly think to just keep the book going.
Caitlin:We're just allowing Shepard more opportunities to slip up, I think.
Chad:And we're also creating the awesome thing that happens in a couple of chapters when, all of a sudden, poro is working on his own.
Caitlin:Yeah.
Chad:He leaves and Shepard has to guess what he's doing.
Caitlin:Okay, I just want to like tease the next episode.
Caitlin:Oh, please but like I am just enjoying that most of the books we have so far Actually. Yeah, like Stiles Halloween Party that most of the books we have so far actually. Yeah, like styles halloween party. There's always a bit of a moment in some nature where things are revealed. We often get some metaphors and similes about mythology and folklore and I feel like at the heart of every puero story so far is just like a garden scene and we get some overhearing. There's some hedges. We're at a Poirot-y Poirot moment in nature and it's going to be fun.
Chad:Yeah, it's going to be great. We've already had one kind of secondhandedly almost, because that's a word, right, but when Carolyn is talking about what she overheard, this is the only place you could go to talk and not be heard, but of course Carolyn's overhearing it anyways. So, yeah, so there is already that kind of thing, but the goldfish pond is fantastic and I'm really looking forward to the next episode.
Caitlin:Oh my God. And actually it's so interesting. Carolyn or Caroline. She betrays herself and her personality for gossip, right Like she hates the woods, and so Shepard knows that she went into the woods to pursue gossip because that's the only reason she would do it. In chapter nine, the goldfish pond Poirot will get himself a little dirty in pursuit of knowledge, and so we can look forward to that as well. He's betraying himself intentionally, because information is what he. I think it's what he loves more than being neat and clean.
Chad:Well said.
Caitlin:I'll just before we record. Next time we'll just roll around in some dirt as well, just to be ready.
Chad:That's excellent I usually do but it's like three or four days beforehand and still haven't showered yet which is fine, and that's how you show you care about clues. Well, that's what I tell my partner. Listen, I really care about clues. Get out of this room, Chad. Hey, we're going to do something different at the end of this, aren't we we?
Caitlin:are. We are Thanks for reminding me, or else I would have not. Okay, do you want to say it, or do you want to say the first part and I can say the second part? Or do you? How do we want to do it? Are we going to do sentence by sentence?
Chad:Let's do it sentence by sentence.
Caitlin:Do you want to go first or second?
Chad:I'll go first For go first or second. I'll go first For more from Chad and Caitlin. Oh, I don't. I like Caitlin and Chad. For more from Caitlin and Chad. Follow Perot Pals on Instagram, at Perot Pals, and on the Substack app.
Caitlin:Keep a lookout for our YouTube content and website coming soon.
Chad:Perot Pals is a part of the Before Dark Podcast Network.
Caitlin:Check out our other Before Dark shows, such as Special Lady Day. Wherever you get your podcasts, the end.
Chad:Nailed it, nailed it. Okay, I'm so excited for the next, uh, the next episode.
Caitlin:Me too, I I love a good goldfish.
Chad:Okay, I got nothing. All right, that's great.
Caitlin:Okay, bye.
