Lessons from a Pollinator Gardener

There are countless ways to support the invertebrates we care about, and creating habitat in your own backyard or community is one we’ve often discussed. Today, we’ll explore real-world examples—what works, what doesn’t, and the exciting discoveries made along the way.

Joining us to talk about her very own yard is Jennifer Hopwood. Jennifer is a Senior Pollinator Conservation Specialist with Xerces, providing resources and training for pollinator and beneficial insect habitat management and restoration in a variety of landscapes. Jennifer has authored a number of publications and articles, and is co-author of several books, including Farming with Native Beneficial Insects, 100 Plants to Feed the Bees, and a roadside revegetation manual. And like so many of us at Xerces, Jennifer is also a gardener and has learned through trial and error what makes a garden successful.

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Photo: Jennifer Hopwood

Thank you for listening! For more information go to xerces.org/bugbanter.

Transcript

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Matthew: Welcome to Bug Banter with the Xerces Society, where we explore the world of invertebrates and discover how to help these extraordinary animals. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate.

Rachel: Hi, I’m Rachel Dunham in Missoula, Montana.

Matthew: And I'm Matthew Shepherd in Portland, Oregon.

Rachel: There are countless ways to support the invertebrates we care about, and creating habitat in your own backyard or community is one we’ve often discussed. Today, we’ll explore real-world examples—what works, what doesn’t, and the exciting discoveries made along the way.

Rachel: Joining us to talk about her very own yard is Jennifer Hopwood. Jennifer is a senior pollinator conservation specialist with Xerces, providing resources and training for pollinator and beneficial insect habitat management and restoration in a variety of landscapes. Jennifer has authored a number of publications and articles, and is co-author of several books, including Farming with Native Beneficial Insects, 100 Plants to Feed the Bees, and a roadside revegetation manual. And like so many of us at Xerces, Jennifer is also a gardener, and has learned through trial and error of what makes a garden successful.

Rachel: Welcome back to Bug Banter, Jennifer! It’s nice to have you here.

Jennifer: Thank you. It's always a pleasure to be here and talk with you both.

Matthew: So to build some context, Jennifer, where do you live in the U.S. and what type of climate are you working with in your garden?

Jennifer: Yeah. I live in Omaha, Nebraska. So in the middle of the lower 48 states. And our climate is—it can vacillate between quite warm and quite cold, just being in the middle of the continent. And it's the tallgrass prairie region, really, is where—what would've been here 150 plus years ago. And Omaha is right along the Missouri river, as well. So there's a lot of natural bluffs, and hills, and some unique climate aspects that come with being along that river. But yeah, Central United States currently. And [I] have gardened in other places, but they are in similar theme—in the central states or in the Great Lakes.

Matthew: Your house, is it suburban or urban?

Jennifer: Yeah, that's a good question. So I live in what’s called Midtown Omaha, which isn't really midtown anymore because Omaha has kind of sprawled out west quite a lot. But it was definitely the suburbs about a hundred years ago. And so now, it's not urban, I would say it's definitely still suburban. But the houses are pretty still dense and tight together. And the house is over a hundred years old, and it was working class housing when it was built—it's a bungalow. And so, yeah, none of the lots are extremely big, just for context. So, I think sometimes suburban, for me at least, evokes, you know, a lot of space, with the yard, and so forth. And our lots are not quite that. They're a little bit tighter and compact. However, my own lot is a very funny pie-shaped wedge just because the street curves quite a lot. So we have a front yard that stretches in an arc, and then a backyard that is just a little triangle. So it's an unusual shape.

Matthew: What you were saying about the suburbs being so different. Everybody seems to have a different impression of what a suburb is. If you're in the Mid-Atlantic, Connecticut, those kind of places, the suburbs might be an, you know, a house and an acre.

Jennifer: Yes, that's absolutely right. Yeah. 

Matthew: And, you know, where I live in the suburbs of Portland, Oregon, they have—the plots are like 5,000 square feet. So very, very different conditions that you're working within. Another thing that a lot of people in suburbs deal with are like HOA—Homeowners Associations—or people in towns in general, there's like city weed ordinances to work within. Are you in an HOA, or have any of those things to address?

Jennifer: No, there's no HOA in my neighborhood. And I haven't run afoul of any city weed ordinances. However, I have had an issue with sidewalk encroachment, just having plants overgrow the sidewalk, which reduces accessibility. That happened this last summer. So this was the first time that I had to be pretty careful about trimming it back so it wasn't a problem. But otherwise, I haven't run afoul of restrictions like that yet.

Matthew: And how many things are you balancing in your yard—kids, pets, wildlife? Are you finding spaces for everything, or is it just like hardcore wildlife?

Jennifer: Yeah, that's a good question. I will definitely say that my older son, about a year ago said about the backyard, like, “Mom, this is too much habitat. You gotta cut some of this back.” And that was fair—I'll explain the issues with the backyard. But in the front yard, we definitely did focus on habitat. There is an expansive lawn though, where we play soccer, and catch, and just have that space to monkey around. We used to have a really giant, beautiful black locust tree. And it was just glorious in the springtime with those beautiful blossoms that would just hang down, and you could hear the bumble bees working the flowers. And it provided the most beautiful shade in the summertime when it was pretty hot. And we—there were a number of summers where we'd have big storms and lose electricity, and we'd just go out and spend the day under the tree. But it came down in a really big storm last summer. And so now we're figuring out how to use that space in a new way. And I've planted some new shrubs and new trees.

Jennifer: So we are balancing kids, and we do have a dog, too. And the way that I learned to think about adding the dog to our space was that she adds some disturbance. So there's a combination of recreation, and wildlife habitat, and we do have some vegetable gardens—one raised bed in the front, and one raised bed in the back. And there's an open question about whether or not we're going to add a chicken coop. There's some significant interest, again from my oldest son who has some entrepreneurial visions for those eggs and a business plan to go with it. So that's what we're balancing right now. Haha.

Matthew: That's funny. I think of the lemonade stand as being the kind of classic summer thing, and you can have like an egg stand now.

Jennifer: Yeah. It was really born last spring when eggs were so, so expensive. That's where the seeds were planted for this. But of course, it's not inexpensive to get that chicken coop off the ground. And yeah, our dog is not chicken-friendly.

Rachel: I love it. I think it's a great sample to dive into because you're sort of dealing with a little bit of everything. So what did your yard look like when you moved in? Did you have good soil? Was it all lawn? How long have you been there? Kind of give us the basis of what you were working with.

Jennifer: Yeah, that's a great question. We moved in at the tail end of 2013 and the house—up close to the house where these giant yew bushes that had clearly been growing for a very, very long time and had been heavily manicured into shapes. There was like a box hedge right underneath the windows on either side—the front windows of the, either side of the front porch. And then there were giant, like 12-foot-tall box yew hedges—so tall that I couldn't cut them on a ladder. And it just felt like, “I can't manage these. I don't wanna trim them. They're blocking light.” So one of the goals became saving up to get those removed. So that was sort of up close to the house.

Jennifer: And then along the front sidewalk there—. I should just step back and say some of the most popular plants in Omaha area, just because of ease of growth, are daylilies and hostas. And I don't think this is uncommon for a lot of the United States because those plants are really hardy. Hostas can grow in shade and in sun, and daylilies just grow pretty much wherever. It was really those three species that were in the front yard in various densities. And the first thing we did when we moved in—the first, the next growing season—was to move the hostas to a different space because they were overgrowing that front walk. I don't love hostas. So I did move them—and gave some away, too—to put them around the back deck, just as a sort of border. And then I gave away heaps and heaps of those orange daylilies, because I've never seen an insect on them ever. Either eating the vegetation, or on the flower. And so I wanted to make space. And since I started out thinking about, “Okay, well there's already these small garden beds. I really wanna maximize the space and the benefits that those things are providing.” So that meant giving away the daylilies and moving the hostas to start.

Jennifer: And our soil is a mix of clay and silt, so it's okay. It's not amazingly productive, and it's compacted because it's, you know, suburban soil. But it's okay to plant into. And native plants have been really doing really, really well in that soil. I will say a unique thing about our soil is that we live in a part of Omaha that was impacted by a smelting factory in the eighties that deposited lead across a huge swath of the city. And we are just outside of the Superfund site, but we still have contaminated soil. So we are pretty careful about trying to keep it all covered with either native plants, or lawn, or shrubs so that we reduce exposure to people. And we do—that's the reason we have raised beds, too. So there is a portion of lawn and there was a lot more lawn than there is now.

Rachel: So you said your backyard is quite a bit smaller than the front yard. Did they have the same plants? Did they sort of look the same with lawn, and then bordered with some of the plants that you had mentioned?

Jennifer: That's a really good question. There were some old grapevines growing along the back fence, and it was just so overgrown, and they weren't healthy. So we took those out. And that's where we put in one of the raised beds for the vegetable garden. And there is a little bit of lawn, but there was also a giant buckthorn tree—which is an invasive species, by the way—that was taking up a good portion of the back garden. And it's an open question in my mind about whoever planted that, if it was on purpose, or if it was just an invader, because that's a really invasive species that we are still fighting. But because of that plant, there wasn't actually a lot of lawn underneath—it was taking up a lot of the moisture. And so it took us a couple years to get that out. But that really helped with growing grass to cover the soil again to reduce lead exposure. And then there was a bit of a raised bed, too, and we planted raspberry bushes there. So that's the backyard, or that's what the backyard looked like. It was a big brambly tree with a little bit of grass here and there, and a massive amount of grapevines. And some daylilies, of course.

Rachel: Well, it sounds like you had a lot to think about, and a lot to work on. You've mentioned a couple of things about saving money to remove some, giving some away, making space. How did you just generally approach all of this, and kind of what was your first step? Because it feels a little—even hearing everything—it feels overwhelming. So how did you approach it? What was kind of these small first steps that you took? Or did you just dive right into it?

Jennifer: I mean, that's a really great question. And it was overwhelming, especially thinking about where to start. But we just took it a little bit at a time, and every year kind of tried something new, and chipped away at it. And the highest priority was to move those yew bushes, which I'm sure we're about 50 to 75 years old. And it felt really sad at the time to take out a plant that old, but also, there was nothing using it. And it was taking up so much space that felt really precious, and I really wanted some flowering plants in those spaces, and I don't regret it one bit. But at the same time, I think anytime you move plants—it's probably just a me thing—like somehow there's some guilt involved. But the other thing that we did was move those hostas right away along the front sidewalk, and then planted in some plugs of native wildflowers and native grasses. And somehow being able to look out the windows and get more light in, and then see those native species—it was wonderful because it became like a catalyst for making additional changes.

Jennifer: So the other thing I did in the first growing season was take out those grapevines because they were a problem for the chain link fence, which are not exactly incredibly stable. And this is perhaps where I made my first—we'll call them learning experiences. Also could be a mistake. But we had some leftover wildflower seed from a project that I had worked on, and it was just leftover, and I thought, “Okay, it's got a bunch of persistent species. I think that's what I need here to combat all these weeds.” So I spread that seed in the backyard in this tiny space. And those persistent species did come up. They were persistent. Haha. And another good learning curve was recognizing that, you know, in a natural area, in a natural setting, there's a lot of competition for resources, for light, for soil, for water. And in a backyard, or in a front yard, there isn't sometimes that density of plants, and that competition right away—it does come over time as things fill in, but not right away. So those plants are—they're quite happy. And that means that they grow taller than they would, you know, in a natural setting. And so that was an unexpected side effect and unexpected challenge for that space. So, you know, 11 years later, I'm still trying to figure out how to work with that space.

Jennifer: To compound the problem, I added in a couple other species that were quite tall, because there's a drain off the house that comes down a slight hill, so it was a wet space. And so I planted cup plant, which is this gorgeous plant in the family, Asteraceae, and it has these huge leaves that water pools in. It's great for birds, and wildlife, and it's just beautiful for people, too. But that plant loved that wet space and then spread. So planting additional persistent plants to help combat your persistent plants is not the solution. In case some of you are thinking that out there. It doesn't always work. So we've been figuring out how to navigate that. And it just really involves disturbance, and trimming, and packing in additional grasses to help competition with some of those plants.

Matthew: There's always going to be, “A little bit, a little bit, a little bit,” and you find out what works, and you find out what doesn't work. Some plants thrive, some plants don't, and, you know, you're gonna find the right balance. My own garden, I've been here for 20 years now, and at some phases our backyard looked glorious, and other years it looked hideous. But we're gradually working on it, you know. And it's just, “Add a few plants, add a few plants,” and you gradually find out what works, and what doesn't. And I have New England asters in the front that are six feet tall. That is way taller than anybody told me they would be. But I liked your comment about the kind of tallgrass prairie, and the natural habit of having so much more competition.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Matthew: And that's what I realized with those some years ago. It's like, oh, of course they don't have the root competition from everything else, so.

Jennifer: No. Yeah, they're just so happy to grow sky high. And yeah. I think I didn't account for that in my planning of planting.

Matthew: That's the real world for a gardener, you know?

Jennifer: Yeah. And it's been a good lesson to remember that it's okay to trim those plants.

Matthew: It sounds like you've been transforming your garden to bring more natural plants in. I assume you've also taken time to enjoy what you've been creating, too, in between the projects.

Jennifer: Yes, is the short story. Well, there's a couple things. When I first started out I did feel like, “Gosh, I sure don't know what I'm doing.” And it felt like the stakes were a little bit higher. In a year, or two, or three in, I started to just realize actually I just need to learn, and look around, and observe, and adapt. And this is a lot more about me than the plants—kind of accepting where they really wanted to grow, and what worked in that space. And realizing that actually this plant is too tall and I really need to move it. And actually butterfly milkweed do not work in our soil. Even though I really, really, really want them to grow there, they do not. So quit planting them because that is just not gonna work. So there was a lot of me growth, I think. I learned a lot from the plants.

Jennifer: One really interesting thing that was fun to watch is after we planted the front strip, just along the front sidewalk that goes from the house to the parallel sidewalk. And then we have another area that we've been expanding, taking out lawn and planting in native plants and shrubs. That strip that goes between the street and the sidewalk had really poor sod establishment. Because just before we moved in, they had done a sewer project, and then planted the sod. And it's not great to plant sod in August in Omaha. You know, you're just rolling the dice there. But it didn't establish, so it was just this patch of dead vegetation for a year or two. But once we had a couple native plants get going, those seeds blew right in. And so we had little bluestem, and pale purple coneflower, and smooth aster, and coreopsis that colonized that area right by the street, and just started to grow. In fact, I mean, they just flourished there. So we never planted anything in that space but it moved in, and that was, that was really gratifying to see.

Jennifer: And then when I had my office upstairs, and I could look out the window over that area, too, I could see birds from my window really easily, and watch them eating seeds. And there were hummingbirds that would visit the coneflowers. And all those things have been really gratifying. And then just being outside and seeing the life has been wonderful, too. But the process of gardening has also been helpful. I feel like digging, and planting is a really hopeful and optimistic process. It's been really good for my mental health. We had a family tragedy about seven years ago, and I feel like after that gardening became therapeutic in a lot of ways for working through my feelings, and just time and space to think and feel. And just the act of planting sort of became this act of hope for the future. And I'm gonna plant this plant in my space, and I really don't have much control in this space, or even beyond—especially not beyond—but even in this space, the plants are just gonna do what they're gonna do. But I'm gonna try to see if I can get this to grow, and—. And no, it just was really, really good. And so it's been a journey.

Matthew: Gardening is always a journey by what we try. And what you were saying there about gardening being a kind of an escape from everything—you know, therapeutic, beneficial in so many ways. There's so much evidence now that time spent with, in contact with nature is just good all round.

Matthew: What have been your favorite insects that you've started seeing in your yard?

Jennifer: Yeah, that's a good question. Well, it's been good to see more bees come in, for sure. Just to start with the pollinators, because they're so visible on the flowers. My next-door neighbors volunteer for the Bumble Bee Atlas and so they've been—they're really diligent about looking for bumble bees in their space, and in ours, too. And so, we've been—we have a good running list of bumble bees. But we—. There's been specialist bees, too, that have been fun to see. And we have a lot of wasps, which I love. Spider wasps, beetle hunters, and sand wasps. Sometimes when I was digging to remove the sod—because I just do it by hand with a soil knife, because, you know, I have a small space. Just cut underneath the sod and flip out the grass, and plant into that, and it's really easy—I found firefly larvae, which is amazing. That was really cool.

Jennifer: When we had our black locust, one year I saw a Rhipicerid beetle, which is a parasitoid of cicada larvae. So their larvae feed on cicada larvae underground, slowly, agonizingly killing them. And then the adults are quite large and brown, and have feathery antenna and—it was a real treat to see that. We have dragonflies and damselflies. We did put in a really small pond in 2020 when we were all spending lots of quality time at home. And my son really, really, really wanted a pond, so we worked on that. And so we do get some dragonflies and damselflies that reproduce in that small pond. This year my next-door neighbors did some monarch tagging in their yard and our yard. And my son joined in—my oldest joined in and they tagged between a hundred monarchs—over a hundred monarchs in our two yards. So that was really, that was really fun. So those are some of my favorite bugs, I think, we've got. We have a bunch of spiders, too. Those have been some of the highlights.

Matthew: Yeah. Have there been anything particularly unexpected?

Jennifer: Some really nice scarab beetles that are giant. I think they eat our roses, the wild roses. And I love seeing them—they're so big. And when they fly through the air, it's just like, how are they even doing that? They look like small birds.

Matthew: And I imagine your kids, they share your excitement, do they?

Jennifer: Yeah, for the most part. Yeah. I think there's a lot to turn over and look at, which is fun. This year when the dragonflies were migrating through, moving south in September, we got out some lawn chairs and popcorn, and watched them circle in the yard, and that was pretty entertaining. Haha. It's good to feel like we can walk out our door and find wildlife. I think that feels—it feels really wonderful. And it can happen on any scale, too. I mean, even when I lived in apartments for a long time before we bought a house and settled down—we moved around quite a lot and that meant renting. And you know, I’d just have a window box, or a pot that I would grow plants in. And even then, just seeing a little bit of life on those makes such a difference. So, yeah, I'm really grateful to have this space.

Matthew: I was gonna ask you how your neighbors reacted to the changes in your landscape, but it sounds like on one side they're thrilled, right?

Jennifer: Yeah. Well, I feel like on one side we just have—they're just the most amazing human beings to start with, but they also are naturalists. And so we share cool finds in our yard, and it's just really synergistic. So if we have good success with a plant, we'll share. And they are always experimenting with how to get more birds to their yard because they are birders. Kind of taking a wider look, though. I think some people in the neighborhood definitely took a little bit longer to warm up to them just because they're taller. It looks a little bit more messy than traditional gardens, for sure—and manicured spaces. But I have had people that walk by that ask if they could take seeds, or if I have extra little seedlings, or they take pictures and then go back and learn about that plant. That's been really nice.

Jennifer: And so in our neighborhood as a whole—and our next-door neighbors have lots of native plants, too—but in our neighborhood as a whole, there's just a lot more out in the landscape than there was 11 years ago. And it feels—I'm not taking credit for that—but it feels amazing to see that. And for those of you out there that are native plant gardeners, or thinking about it, I think that having that in your space is really powerful for other people to see. Like I said, I think one of the most amazing things is having somebody walk by and say, “What is this plant? It's beautiful. Do you think I can grow it?” And, “Absolutely!” is the answer, you know. Haha. It's just a powerful tool for learning and engagement in an informal way. And I just, I really appreciate that a lot.

Rachel: It sounds like you've done so much to transform your yard. You even talked about a water feature—it's not something that everybody puts in. And maybe you'll get to this in this question, but are there things that you would do differently based on what you know now? What are some of the lessons that you've learned along the way with these different projects?

Jennifer: Yeah, that's a great question, Rachel. I would definitely think more carefully about locating certain plants, knowing what I know now about their ability to grow quite a bit taller without competition. Thinking about how I grouped certain plants might be good, too. There's a space that's off to the side of the house in the front yard, in the pie-shaped wedge—we just call it the tall garden. That's where all the tall plants go. And it works out fine because it provides a little bit of screening for the backyard. But it's pretty much a free-for-all where all the tall plants just duke it out every year. And some of them, you know, every year sort of waxes and wanes for different populations. And Matthew, you mentioned this, that some years it looks absolutely glorious, and then other years it looks less glorious, perhaps.

Jennifer: And I think the thing that I would do differently, or at least I would tell myself differently, is that that's absolutely okay. Totally fine. Haha. And just to accept it, and not stress or micromanage it. I think adapting to changes has been a skill that I had to acquire with plants, recognizing that, again, they're gonna kind of figure it all out. And I'm learning from them—as much as I'm facilitating their growth, they're definitely facilitating mine. So giving them their time and space to flourish and establish.

Jennifer: And then also not being afraid to move plants if they're not growing successfully in that space, or they're too big, or, as we talked about earlier, trimming them back to—not being afraid to trim them back. And not just shrubs, but herbaceous plants, too. It's okay to trim back the Jerusalem artichokes so that they're not 14 feet tall. That's fine. Yeah. And just remembering that these are native plants—they're hardy, they are adaptable, they are used to disturbance, so that's actually good for them.

Jennifer: Another thing that I have learned is at first when they started to fill in and seed and spread, I had a hard time culling them. And so even when they got even more chaotic, I just felt like, “Oh, I just really need to leave it. It's growing.” And now I'm like, “Nah, it can go. It needs to go.” And that's been good, too, because then if I have extras, I just put them out on the sidewalk and say, “Free Jerusalem artichokes.” That's every year. I'll give away seed to help me feel like I'm not wasting those plants. That's another thing—at first, I was a little afraid of management. It sounds, it probably sounds ridiculous, but these are the things I'm reflecting on in this conversation, for sure, that if I could tell myself 10 years ago, like, “You just don't need to be so worried about it. Just learn, and watch, and adapt.”

Matthew: One analogy I heard a few years ago was, as a gardener it’s like, you're the coach and the referee of a sports event. Most of the time what happens out there is just gonna happen. But every now and then you need to step in just to control things, so.

Jennifer: That's a great analogy. Yeah, put some boundaries on it. Keep it tight. Recommend, “Well, I think you could do better over here.”

Rachel: Yeah, I appreciate what you said about learning from the plants, and that they're gonna do what they're gonna do. And I think it's hard. I've just started gardening [in] the past couple years, and I would say some people would probably describe me as slightly controlling—Haha—with some aspects of my life. And I think with gardening I've had to learn that you just have to let go. But there's some freedom in that of you do what you can and then you see what happens. But I love that it comes full circle of like, well learn from it, and what is it trying to teach you? And go with it rather than trying to go against it. I think that's such good advice, especially because we all have different challenges. You know, some people do have HOAs, some people have horrible soil, some people have great soil, you know. And finding out how to balance all of those things. But trying to go with it rather than working against, I think is really, really good advice. So in all these projects that you've done, do you have a favorite that you are like, “I loved doing this project?”

Jennifer: Even though I really miss our beautiful, beautiful tree that's completely gone—and it turned out that it had internal rotting that made it more vulnerable to falling over—but seeing new potential, and we put in a new serviceberry tree. And it'll be quite a bit shorter, but I'm just looking forward to seeing how that grows. I think even the things like the—putting in two aggressive species in the backyard, and then adding more aggressive species on top of that has been fun, even if it was the wrong choice twice. Yeah. There’re upsides to mistakes, too.

Rachel: What are some resources that you would recommend to listeners if they're interested in adding habitat to their yards or their community?

Jennifer: Yeah, that's a great question, too. We have a Parks and Yards Habitat Assessment Guide. And it's just a paper publication, and it walks you through how to score different aspects of your space. And somehow trying to articulate how many blooming species you have, or how much cover you have, and whether you do have plants that provide, like stem nests, for example. Or you have little patches of bare ground here and there, or so forth, just in your space, or in your neighborhood—it's really helpful to find those gaps where you could—. You know, you don't have to overhaul your whole yard, but you could say, “Oh gosh, I could put in some wild roses.” And that would mean that those stems are gonna support little tiny carpenter bees. And, “Wouldn't that be a neat thing to add to my yard.” Or, “I really love birds, especially goldfinches. I'm gonna add some echinacea.” I don't know. It's helpful to find the bloom gaps. So that's a good resource if you're thinking about how to start integrating pieces of habitat. It doesn't have to happen overnight. And of course we have a lot of good plant lists on our website, too. Our Pollinator Conservation Resource Center. And we're working on a tool right now to help with getting native plants to people that wanna support monarchs, as well. So that's in the works.

Jennifer: I did read some books about gardening, but somehow—and I think there are more now than there were when I was first starting out about how to work with native plants, and how to plan—and I just really muddled through that aspect. So I think it would be good to look at your library and just see if there's some local resources on native plants, and gardening with native plants.

Matthew: I was gonna say, what you were describing there, I think, is the experience of many, many gardeners. We just kind of muddle through. We listen to things, we read an article in a newspaper, maybe.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Matthew: We hear something from a friend. You get a tip, you know, and then you try it, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And we just muddle through. And then over time, the plants decide for us and we live with what we have.

Jennifer: Yes! Yes, you're totally right. You're totally right. And, you know, your local community is a good source of information, too, because yeah, I can tell people, “Probably don't grow Jerusalem artichokes in your backyard alongside cup plant because they'll get too tall.” But others can offer much more refined guidance, too.

Rachel: I agree about the local community. I talked about this in a previous episode about our local farmer's market, and having the luck of being there when the native plant society was selling their native plants. And I asked them so many questions because I just feel—I just don't know what I'm doing. And over time, I've learned. But being able to actually talk to someone in my community who has done something similar has been gold. It's such a good resource. So trying to find presentations in your community, and reaching out to Master Gardeners, or other organizations that work with native plants—that's been really helpful for me, yeah. And hearing your stories, too, Jennifer. I know that we do not live in the same state or climate, but I do think that it is helpful to hear just the lessons that you've learned, and things along the way. And I have to ask before we go to our last two questions. You said that your son said, “Mom, it's too wild in the backyard.” Was that because he wants a chicken coop?

Jennifer: Haha. That was pre-chicken coop. It was really because the cup plants were so tall that we couldn't get through. And my youngest, who's now four, kind of likes going through the cup plants because it feels like a jungle. But that year, they were so dense and tight, and I had just—I hadn't stayed up with it, I hadn't been controlling it, and you couldn't get through. So it was just like a dense forest of cup plants and Jerusalem artichokes, which both of those grow 12 to 15 feet tall in that area, and they have really thick stems, and they're like a little rough. So, as kids trying to go through it, it was just, it was like a lot of work. It wasn't fun anymore. So that was a really good reminder. Yeah, you just have to make that space work for multiple people. It's not just me and the bugs.

Matthew: Well, Jennifer, this has been such a pleasure. Before we actually started recording, we chatted for a while and we said, “Oh, it's just always so nice to hang out with you and talk about stuff.” But to hear your anecdotes and your experiences of gardening in the real world—muddling through and figuring it out. But after a decade or more, you're beginning to get a garden that you want, that you can see the benefits from. And other people in the neighborhood enjoy, as well, by the sound of it.

Matthew: Anyway, so thank you. Thank you so much. This has been really fun. As Rachel said, we have our last two questions. Since you've been on before, we're having to come up with fresh ones. So the question for you now is: what has been the most rewarding part of your career?

Jennifer: I really like that we have the capacity to take a look at problems and try to come up with multiple possible solutions to help alleviate those problems. Whether we're coming at it from a research angle, or just getting habitat on the ground, or working with partners on education, that's been really, really, really gratifying. I also really love working with dedicated and creative colleagues, especially the two of you. And partners, as well. I feel like on a daily basis, I learn so much from the people I work with, and am inspired by them. That's absolutely super rewarding.

Rachel: Thank you, Jennifer. I started to get a little emotional because I love working with you so much, and we are fortunate to just be surrounded by so many amazing people. I love that answer. So, yourself included. We were so looking forward to this today. Any chance we get to sit down with you is always such a pleasure. So I'm gonna ask you our last question that we just recently added. What is your favorite science or conservation-related book?

Jennifer: One that got me kind of started on insects was May Berenbaum’s Bugs in the System. She kinda tells a whole bunch of stories in that book about how insects impact humans over the course of history, and oh, it's so interesting. And also just—she's a really engaging writer. So I really love that book. And then ones that are on my nightstand right now are The Light Eaters. It's about plants and how unbelievably amazing they are in completely mind-blowing ways. And then also An Immense World by Ed Yong, which is also about all these different ways that animals sense things. That's really eye-opening, also. Those are some of the things that I'm reading right now, and then one that was really important to me about 25 years ago, for sure.

Rachel: I love those. Well, thank you, Jennifer, so much. I've loved hearing about your yard. And thank you for your time today, and for sitting down with us, as always. It's always so wonderful. And I learned a lot today. You've definitely inspired me, and given me some great ideas moving forward with my garden this next year, and it makes me really excited.

Jennifer: Oh, gosh. Thanks, Rachel. Thank you very much.

Rachel: Bug Banter is brought to you by the Xerces Society, a donor-based nonprofit that is working to protect insects and other invertebrates—the life that sustains us.

Rachel: If you are already a donor, thank you so much. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate. For information about this podcast or for show notes, go to xerces.org/bugbanter.