The Beauty of Less: Xeriscaping for Pollinators

Xeriscaping is an important tool to conserve water and creates resiliency in the face of climate change, among other benefits. In this episode, we are going to explore the benefits of xeriscaping, how to do it, and how it can impact the conservation of insects.

Joining us to dive into this topic is Kailtin Haase, Xerces Pollinator Conservation Specialist in the Southwest. Kaitlin works to create climate-resilient, connected pollinator habitat in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. She collaborates with and educates public and private urban land managers in New Mexico and the desert Southwest on pollinator-friendly practices for landscaping, gardening, and open space restoration. 
---
Cover Photo: Kaitlin Hasse

Thank you for listening! For more information go to xerces.org/bugbanter.

Transcript

Copy

Matthew: Welcome to Bug Banter with the Xerces Society, where we explore the world of invertebrates and discover how to help these extraordinary animals. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate.

Rachel: Hi, I am Rachel Dunham in Missoula, Montana.

Matthew: And I'm Matthew Shepherd in Portland, Oregon.

Rachel: Xeriscaping is an important tool to conserve water and create resiliency in the face of climate change, among other benefits. In this episode, we are going to explore the benefits of xeriscaping, how to do it, and how it can impact the conservation of insects.

Rachel: Joining us to dive into this topic is Kaitlin Haase, Xerces’ pollinator conservation specialist in the Southwest. Kaitlin works to create climate-resilient, connected pollinator habitat in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. She coordinates with and educates public and private urban land managers in New Mexico and the desert Southwest on pollinator-friendly practices for landscaping, gardening, and open space restoration.

Rachel: Welcome to Bug Banter, Kaitlin. It's a long time coming. We're very excited to have you here.

Kaitlin: No, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to get to chat with you two about Xeriscaping.

Matthew: So if you're excited, let's just jump straight in. So, xeriscaping—what is it?

Kaitlin: Great question. Thinking about the word itself, it's xeriscaping. If we break that down, the “xeri” comes from xeric, which means like a dry environment, as opposed to mesic, which is a wet environment. And then, of course, landscaping is where the “scaping” comes from. Like an outdoor space design. So, incorporating the dry environment—reducing water, typically, is what people mean when they say xeriscaping. So xeriscaping is landscaping for a dry environment, reducing water use and irrigation as much as possible, so that you're reducing as much input into the landscape as possible. You're trying to conserve water, trying to conserve soil, prevent soil erosion. Ensure that your soil is absorbing water that does fall on the ground and doesn't immediately wash away. And often, all of that kind of centers around choosing the right plants that fit the right place in that dry landscape.

Kaitlin: So usually when people talk about xeriscaping, they mean dry environments, but it can be applied elsewhere, too. When xeriscaping, a lot of people think that xeriscaping means like absolutely no work or maintenance, and that's more like zero-scaping. That means usually like creating an impervious surface, or no soil interaction, no plant interaction. It's just either paving something over, putting down rock mulch. There's absolutely no water irrigation going on, but there's also no life to zero-scaping. But xeriscaping is incorporating the usually native vegetation adapted to the climate of the area you're xeriscaping in.

Matthew: Now, you mentioned this, and my follow-up question was gonna be that we tend to think of this as something that we do in desert areas. But these principles, xeriscaping, can it be used in any region, even in the wet bits where I live?

Kaitlin: Yes. Yes, absolutely. That's a really good point, is that usually when people talk about xeriscaping, and the resources you'll find about it are more applied to dry land areas, but it's definitely able to be applied in wetter places. It's more about matching the wetness or dryness of a certain area to the plants, and what you can do to help the ground absorb any rainfall that falls, be it a giant deluge in the Pacific Northwest, or very small amounts of rain in the desert, where I am. It's definitely applicable, but maybe in these wetter areas, incorporating like how water flows, and ensuring that the ground is really spongy, and you have things to absorb it might be a little bit more applicable in wetter places.

Matthew: Yeah, interesting. So what are the benefits of xeriscaping?

Kaitlin: Oh gosh, there's so many benefits. If we're talking about xeriscaping, maybe we should step back and talk about what traditional landscaping might look like. These could be things that, like lawns that require a good amount of watering, fertilizers, potentially. Other big ornamental plants that might be needy, things that look really good to us, but they need things—they need a lot of water, they might need a lot of maintenance. Xeriscaping is addressing reducing those needs in your landscape. So the benefits are huge in that you're conserving a lot of things. You're conserving water, you're conserving time, you're conserving soil, you're conserving the environment by choosing plants that provide habitat and are adapted to your local ecosystem. So there's so many benefits. And not just this ecological sense of we're here to create wildlife habitat and save our invertebrates, but economically. And often if you can make a nice xeriscape, that's also a really lovely aesthetic thing to add to your landscape, as well.

Matthew: It can save you money, it can save you time. Seems like two great reasons for people to do it, irrespective of everything else. There’re benefits, but there must be challenges, too. Are there things about xeriscaping that maybe makes gardening harder?

Kaitlin: Yes, absolutely. So I'm based in Santa Fe, New Mexico and landscaping here—. A lot of people move to Santa Fe from different parts of the country and they're used to gardening where it's wet. And changing that mindset, or approaching gardening with this mindset of, “we're reducing as much water as possible” can really be a challenge. And frustrating. Because you wanna see what you put in the ground grow, and desert natives grow very slowly, especially if they don't have a real abundance of water to get started. But watering them slowly ensures they're going to be more resilient. They're going to be tougher plants. So I think the mindset part can probably be the most challenging, as it does require time. It requires some education and knowledge to understand what plants you need to put in, how to—. If you want to incorporate like rainwater harvesting and ensure that you're using water that falls on your property, that can be a bit of a learning curve, and some resources put into that, too. So yeah, it's definitely a little more intensive than just like Googling “start a garden” and figuring that out. But it's, yeah, just a little bit more intensive to do it the right way.

Matthew: Yeah, your comment about the mindset being maybe the biggest one. Because I've lived in different countries, and I've worked on gardens everywhere I've lived. And even in Britain, moving from one side of the country to the other is different. And you tend to bring with you, you know, your expectations. You have this, “Oh, I'm gonna make it there. I'm gonna have this beautiful garden again.” And, “That's my favorite plant, and I'm gonna grow it.” And all those things can be difficult.

Kaitlin: I absolutely despise talking to my friends in the Pacific Northwest about their vegetable gardening because it makes me so jealous. Haha. It takes so much more effort, and water, and, yeah, just intensity to grow some vegetables here. Whereas my friend's [are like], “There's tomatoes growing in the sidewalk cracks, and we just eat those.” I'm like, “Very nice. Love that for you.”

Matthew: The last question I have for you right now: is a lawn a complete no-no in a xeriscaped yard? If someone wants a space for their dog to run or their kids to play, is there a xeriscaped lawn?

Kaitlin: I am a huge fan of taking my shoes off and enjoying some turf grass on my bare feet. And I think it's important to understand what is the value of your lawn? Are you really using it for a purpose? It's not just an aesthetic, “Here's my lawn that's manicured.” But, yes, you can absolutely apply xeriscape methods to a lawn. I think the main things would be reduce the size of the lawn to just what you need. If you can, find a more native, drought-tolerant turf grass. Like I've planted—I have friends that have buffalo grass turf lawns, which—it's a little more sensitive. It won't bounce back as easily to lots of roughhousing on it, like some turf grasses, but it's very drought-tolerant. It's a really pretty grass, too. You don't have to mow it, it grows really short. So there's a lot of great benefits to a buffalo grass lawn, and it's native to the U.S. Folks have it all throughout the Great Plains into the West. And yeah, that's a really good option. It does need irrigation, especially in really dry places, like less than 15 inches of water [of] annual precipitation, so it would need watering.

Kaitlin: And for an irrigation of a lawn, you can adjust your irrigation to be the most water saving possible. So by watering at night, is essential, only watering as much as necessary. Adjusting based on any precipitation patterns—what rain events you do get. There's lots of ways you can have a lawn but ensure you're still reducing the water use of that lawn. And calling it xeriscaped.

Rachel: So you sort of alluded to this earlier, that xeriscaping is a lot about plant selection. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, and are there other considerations aside from which plants to choose?

Kaitlin: Sure. Yeah. So plant selection is huge. It's definitely what I am thinking about all the time. Especially as a pollinator biologist, I'm like, “What's going to feed pollinators?” But also, “What won't require a lot of water and inputs to survive in my yard?” But I think beyond plants, the most critical element to consider when designing a xeriscape is like, where does rainfall fall? And what is your soil composition—like what is your soil content? Do you have a really high and dry spot that is more sandy, the soil—the water drains really fast. That might be a good spot for cacti, and that will—. These different parts of your yard based on their exposure, are they on the east-facing side, west-facing side? Are they—do they have water pooling anywhere nearby that could be a little oasis spot in the yard? That's a really important thing to consider. Designing your plant selection and any irrigation needs—if you're, if you do wanna have some irrigation—thinking about where water moves, and how the soil retains it. So if you have really clay soils that will stay wetter longer, versus those higher, sandy, dry spots. Those are really important aspects, I think. And especially the design.

Kaitlin: The other key parts are reducing irrigation as much as possible. And it's not entirely xeriscaping, but I think it's like the twin sister that has to be acknowledged, is the water collection, rainwater collection, and reducing storm water runoff. So thinking about how you can collect water, how you can distribute it across your landscape most efficiently as possible. And then, of course, other methods to help retain moisture in soil include maybe some soil amendments, adding organic matter. And that can usually be done by incorporating mulch into your landscape. So mulch, ensuring you cover the soil, so that it helps retain moisture. And then that mulch can break down and add organic matter to the soil to help feed the plants, and also help improve the soil quality for retaining moisture. So yeah, I would say knowing the little micro habitats on the landscape is essential to knowing what your plant selection will be. And then reducing irrigation as much as possible, spreading out rainwater as best you can. And then also ensuring that soil is covered and not evaporating that precious water you do get.

Rachel: That's the perfect segue into my next question about mulching, because it is, you know, a key element in water-wise gardening, but 70%, about 70% of our bees nest in the ground—our native bees. So how can we balance moisture retention with providing nesting habitat for those ground-nesting bees?

Kaitlin: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's a really important point a lot of people don't think about is that, especially if you put down a really thick layer of mulch that's really inaccessible for bees to get to the soil for nesting. So I think where I am in really arid desert environments, it's hard not to walk like a few feet and there not the bare ground. So in some places, bare ground, soil-nesting habitat is so accessible everywhere. So having a bigger patch of mulched areas is fine. But if you are lacking any bare ground opportunities for nesting, just having designated little islands of bare ground. Maybe you can plant a plant that likes it really hot and dry there. Maybe it's an area of where cactus you have [are] growing, or other really drought-tolerant plants, that they probably don't even want the mulch. They're probably like, “Ew, this is making me too soggy. Please remove the mulch.” Haha. And incorporate that into the spots that are really dry. You can remove the mulch there, and ensure that bees have access to that. Or using a thinner layer of mulch can be beneficial.

Rachel: Yeah, definitely. I appreciate your answer to those questions. I think as a relatively new gardener, myself, I just dove in and was like, “Oh, I'm just gonna plant all these plants,” that I didn't think about first going out and like learning about my yard, about like where does the majority of the water pool, and what is my soil like? And it's really discovering your space first, and then working with it, instead of just having these expectations of like, “You will work for me, and do what I want you to do.” It kind of really reinforces the xeriscaping process in the first place, or thought and purpose behind it.

Kaitlin: Yeah. It's so easy to do, though, when we're enthusiastic about gardening and planting.

Rachel: Yes! Haha.

Kaitlin: I can't tell you how many times I've planted something and thought, “Why on Earth did I stick that there? What was I thinking?” So it—I think it happens to everyone. Other than like getting a blank slate and having an endless amount of time and resources to pour into it. It's pretty hard to perfect making a perfect xeriscape that doesn't waste a drop of water. We wanna acknowledge that it can take time and it doesn't have to be perfect. And we can slowly introduce these steps into our yard. It doesn't have to be a complete overhaul. We can slowly start adding a cactus patch here, or start finding, like on the north side of your house where there's lots of rainwater coming in, make that your really wet plant selection area. But yeah, it's definitely easy to get ahead of ourselves.

Matthew: Yeah. It’s partly because we're talking about people being keen to get on this, and also what you were saying a few minutes ago about knowing where—like, how the rainwater moves through your garden, where it pools, where it doesn't, what your soils are. If you're in, I don't know, say New Mexico where there's not much rain, how do you figure that out? Do you have to spend a year carefully watching to see what happens? Or is there, I don't know, maybe there are landscape architects, where they can come out and just look at it and would know.

Kaitlin: Yeah, yeah. If you are very well-resourced, you could easily hire a landscape architect who can do a survey of your yard, and tell you where the high points are, where the low points are. But for most people, it's intuitive, I would say, in a lot of situations. Where the sun is coming up, where it's setting, you know that—. And even just looking at how what exists and is growing currently can give you an idea, too. If you're not already being super influenced by established irrigated plants—those will throw you off. But if you can see, “Oh, there's some weeds that are really doing well over here, and there's these really, bald patches of soil in this area.” That's your indication that there's plants really loving it right here and that's probably where you should plant. And then maybe the bald patches is where you can create maybe a rock garden, or put in cactus, if you're in a really xeric area.

Kaitlin: So I think, yeah, having that intuitive, just observation can really help. And then, of course, if you do get a rainfall event, go outside, see where it's pooling, see where it's running off to. And, of course, like we can manipulate that a bit with little earthmoving projects. There's lots of ways to kind of channel water to go in a certain direction, help it flood out an area, create places for it to pool. So it's, yeah, a matter of using, maybe using your rain gutters for directed movement of the water off of your roof. Or potentially, maybe you can get a catchment system and have rain barrels where you can more—even more specifically, move that water to where you want it to go.

Matthew: I love that idea of a rain garden in the desert. Because we tend to think of that as being something for the Midwest or the Northwest.

Kaitlin: It's so great here because all of our paved surfaces, all that water goes rushing off into spaces, and we have a lot more bare ground, a lot of soil that is hard to penetrate for rain. Those rain gardens in the desert are super essential for slowing that water down so they don't just turn into goalie washers, taking out a lot of erosion.

Matthew: Yeah, totally. Climate change, right? It's beginning to shift our rainfall patterns. Does xeriscaping contribute to combating climate change, do you think?

Kaitlin: Yes, absolutely. So in our human environments, especially, we have a lot of impacts. We use a lot of water, we add pollutants, we're doing a lot of things that can exacerbate climate change. And xeriscaping is just one small step in how we can address these changes, and hopefully reduce it. Specifically in the desert Southwest, where we're warming on a faster rate than most of the U.S. Everywhere is warming, but the desert Southwest is especially getting hotter at a faster rate. And with this heat, plants are going to be stressed. And they're not going to be able to survive really harsh droughts that are probably inevitably coming. So ensuring that our landscape can be resilient to these extreme droughts, we’ll ensure that we are protecting our soil. We're protecting habitat for wildlife as we're providing the correct species for these really hot and dry climates.

Kaitlin: And for other locations, as well. Doesn't just have to be the Southwest, but any native plant that is quite locally native to your area is probably going to have a much better chance of surviving our changing climate than something that's a near-native from a really different [area], or a really non-native species that is not used to the climate that you've placed it in. So I think that's really important to consider—is that choosing the right plant for the place can ensure that these landscapes stay more resilient.

Matthew: Yeah, I know we've talked a lot about water. And xeriscaping is focused on making most effective, efficient use of the water that's coming in naturally, but also reducing the kind of external inputs. And, for sure, the less we do in terms of extracting from groundwater reservoirs, or having to build more dams to catch rain, et cetera, et cetera. That all contributes to a more sustainable, more resilient landscape for us. And I'm imagining there must be someone out there who's tried studying some of the benefits and some of the impacts of xeriscape sites. Do we have any data on this?

Kaitlin: Yeah, yeah. So xeriscaping is a little outside our typical ecological research world. It's more in the landscape architect zone. And they're measuring a lot of process based, like how does mulch impact soil moisture, and soil organic matter content? So there's definitely evidence of, you know, these xeriscape practices improving soil health, water retention, and soil. So yeah, there's definitely, more small-scale. I don't know of like a specific study that looks at how xeriscaping sites compare to like traditionally landscape sites. But we have a really good understanding of how this impacts our water usage.

Kaitlin: And cities in the desert Southwest have been encouraging residents to adopt xeriscaping practices. For example, where I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, it's pretty dry, about 14 inches of rainfall per year. And in the nineties—I'll talk to my neighbors that have been here since the seventies in this neighborhood—everyone had lawns. Everyone was watering a lot of turf grass, and it was really unsustainable. And the backend, about ’95, our per capita, per day water use was pretty high. And now, with all of the rebates, additional water-saving, like low-flow toilets, charging people a higher rate once they get to a certain water amount usage per day, they have been able to reduce that water use from ‘95 to today by over 30%. And what's crazy is that our population has grown by 31%. So we have a lot more people, but we're using much less water compared to 30 years ago.

Kaitlin: So there's a lot of success stories of municipalities, different cities incentivizing people, providing rebates for low-flow toilets and other appliances to reduce that water use. And xeriscaping. Albuquerque has a xeriscape rebate program. So there's lots of incentives to reduce our water use because we really need to start paying attention to how much water we're using. As you mentioned, Matthew, that we're working with a limited resource. Especially in the desert, our groundwater sources are depleting. Our snow pack is probably the worst it's been in many decades in New Mexico and Colorado. And as higher temperatures make that snow melt happen faster, our rivers run dry sooner in the summer. So we have lots of pressure on our water resources. And as much reducing that pressure as we can in our landscapes, the greater outcomes we'll have for conservation, sustainability, and for future generations to be able to live here and love the desert. Good question.

Rachel: I love hearing that statistic of reducing the water use by 30%. It's really incredible what a community can do.

Kaitlin: It's a big change. It's a big change to ask people to not grow a lawn, like the idyllic, turf grass lawn has really become a thing of the past in Santa Fe. It's doable, and people can embrace it, and it's just a big cultural shift that takes time. But once it's accepted, people really love to see more of the wild flowers, more of the wildlife that visit a yard versus when it was a lawn.

Rachel: I love hearing that good news. That's really wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. So bringing it back to bugs. How does your xeriscaping impact invertebrates?

Kaitlin: Yeah, great question. So it's all about that plant selection and that diversity in your yard. So we have those high and dry spots, those low and wet spots, and that is your foundation for bringing diversity of plants into your yard. And diversity of plants equals diversity of insects. So in the desert Southwest our—I keep mentioning cactus because they're the best—don't need any water at all, basically. Most, many species. But cactus have cactus pollen specialist bee species. Most bee species you'll see visiting cactus are pollen specialists. They only visit like the Opuntia genus of cactus, like prickly pears, or just the barrel cactus. There are these specialist desert species that only go to these unique desert plants. So it's important to think about how you can include those high and dry upland plants. Who does well in the shade on the north side? That will probably be helping—in a lot of parts of New Mexico and wetter places—like a shrub that blooms early in the spring to help you fill that spring bloom time gap for any spring-active pollinators. That's a really good option for a location like that. So there's lots of opportunities to use the diversity of your landscape to bring in those pollinators.

Kaitlin: And one other thing I haven't mentioned yet is—. I mentioned mulch being a really important resource for helping retain water. Including grasses and other like tough, drought-tolerant woody shrubs and perennials that have plant litter that survives through the winter, and allowing it to fall to the ground, fall to the soil, and become part of that soil cycle process. That also creates a lot of habitat. Ideally in a xeriscape, you want to reduce maintenance, as well. And having these leafy plants that drop their leaves have leaf litter can provide a lot of habitat. And yeah, it's less maintenance. You get to leave a lot of stems and plant material for your insects to hide in. I don't rake the leaves in my yard, and I have spotted towhees all winter long flipping up leaves and eating bugs. So it's really great to see that it's a living landscape that is feeding not just the bugs, but also the birds that depend on them, the lizards, all kinds of wildlife. So having that diversity of plants, and then ensuring that diversity gets to leave some of their biomass behind and provide habitat is also really key.

Matthew: Yeah, no, thank you. That was a really comprehensive overview of how xeriscaping can help. Your point about native plants particularly resonated with me. Because I know that's something that, with the diversity of insects, that we have, and the work that other people have done, we know that native plants, diversity of native plants, and locally native plants are so, so important for supporting the locally native insects. Whether that's particular bees that need certain flowers, or the caterpillars eating the host plants, or the true bugs that are sucking away on the stems. All these things—greater abundance, greater diversity when you've got the native plants, so.

Kaitlin: Absolutely. Xeriscaping—the principles don't particularly require you to plant native. You could plant a xeric plant from another part of the world. But yeah, if a main goal is to include lots of resources for wildlife, for insects, including your natives is really important. And natives are really great for really being able to be adaptable to changing climates. Resilience is—. They're so well adapted to your local location that it's most likely that they're going to be able to survive the exact really tough droughts that you might experience. Or floods, if you're in a wet place or low-lying area. So ensuring that you're picking the plants that do really well in that specific spot is also really beneficial for a long, long-lived continuous habitat for your landscape.

Matthew: Yeah, I totally agree with that. This has been fascinating. I’ve realized that in my own garden—I live in the damp side of Oregon—but xeriscaping, it seems, it underlies what I do. Because I'm certainly always trying to minimize inputs. I don't have an irrigation system, so I'm working towards a—"no added water” is my end point. So I've come away from this with, “Oh, there's some new ideas. I should try that. Here's something else I can do.” It's been great. Thank you.

Matthew: As we wrap up our conversation, we wanted to finish with our last two kind of standard questions. The one I want to ask is: what inspired you to get into insect conservation?

Kaitlin: Oh, that's a great question. I was always a nature nerd. I watched a lot of Animal Planet. Very obsessed with Animal Planet. My parents were horticulturists, so we had a garden center. So I was outside helping out in the garden center, regularly growing plants. And yeah, just was able to get a real appreciation at a young age for all this life that I was surrounded by. And like, specific moments included, like going to streams—freshwater streams in eastern Oklahoma where I just spent hours looking at aquatic invertebrates in the streams. All of the little mayfly larva, dragonfly larvae, all those amazing critters that live in streams. And that was definitely a formation of, “I have to get into this in my career at some point.” And I think what's funny is I went into wildlife conservation for my undergrad, and I started working on seasonal tech positions with different wildlife projects. I started working with like bears, and birds, and wolves. I did all different kinds of like big wildlife species, but I just kept gradually getting more and more intrigued by the little things in our environment. So even though I had that taste of big, charismatic megafauna wildlife, I still found myself so drawn to the incredible diversity. And I particularly loved the goriness of insect predators and parasites, so it's just always been something that I've found myself drawn to. And so incredible that I get to work for Xerces as an insect conservationist.

Rachel: I love that. Yeah, little things can be very entertaining and interesting, especially the goriness of them. Haha.

Kaitlin: Yeah, yeah. I spent a lot of time like doing plant surveys where I was just looking at spiders eating other insects, or praying mantis eating frogs, and I was like, “Oh, these are way cooler than most things I get to see when I'm outside, so this is where I want to go.”

Rachel: We're lucky to have you at Xerces. I'm certainly happy that you're here. Our last question—it's a fun one. If you could see any bug in the wild, what would it be and why? And bug is a loose term for any invertebrate, really. Haha.

Kaitlin: Yes. Two things. I've seen them before, but I would wanna see—I just wanna see them every time I go outside to a river—is dobsonflies—hellgrammites. The larvae, the adults—those are just like one of my favorite things to see. They're these crazy—gosh, I can't even remember which family they're in, but they're, I think they're related to antlions—and they are gigantic, winged adults. And they have these giant piercer mouth parts. And they're big. I don't know, big things are just so exciting when it's an invertebrate. And then the larva are also very big, aquatic predators that eat other bugs, fish, tadpoles, those kinds of things. So I just love a big, aquatic predator. Especially anything that goes from aquatic larvae to terrestrial adults. I think that's always really fascinating to get to live in both of those worlds.

Kaitlin: And then the other one is—I think it's called the Lord Howe Island—is that what it's called? Those unbelievable, like giant stick bugs that are so isolated out in the Pacific Ocean near Australia. It's just fascinating that something that big, and with very little other life on a giant rock sticking out of the ocean in the middle of nowhere, can live like that. And that would be fun to see.

Rachel: Definitely. I love those answers. I'm gonna have to look that first one up. I don't think I've—I know very much about them.

Kaitlin: Oh my God, they're so cool.

Rachel: Thank you so much, Kaitlin. This has been really wonderful. I'm so glad we finally had you on this episode. And I learned so much. Just like Matthew, I have all these new ideas, too, and things I'm gonna think about. So thank you for that. Thank you for inspiring me, and for taking time to be with us here today. It was such a pleasure.

Matthew: Yeah. Thank you so much, Kaitlin.

Rachel: Bug Banter is brought to you by the Xerces Society, a donor-based nonprofit that is working to protect insects and other invertebrates—the life that sustains us.

Rachel: If you are already a donor, thank you so much. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate. For information about this podcast or for show notes, go to xerces.org/bugbanter.