Just War

This week on Behind the Pulpit, the pastors jump back in after a short break with conversation around current events, including the conflict with Iran, the framework of just war, the theological background of Shia Islam, and a few of the major Christian views surrounding Israel and the end times. The episode also includes discussion of Jason Thacker’s recent visit, reflections on AI, and a new round of Book War.

A pair of listener questions lead into discussion on spiritual gifts and spiritual fruit, the difference between outward gifting and inward maturity, and how Christians should think carefully and compassionately about intersex conditions, gender dysphoria, and the cultural shifts surrounding youth gender medicine. The conversation stays grounded in Scripture while also engaging some of the medical, legal, and pastoral realities tied to those questions.

The sermon recap looks back on the Upside Down Glory series as a whole, revisiting Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 12, and 1 Corinthians 15, along with the church’s next steps in disability ministry and the kind of cultural change the pastors hope to see take root at MBC. The Weekly Warm-Up centers on John 4:21, and the Theology Sprint closes with a quick look at the three major pillars of philosophy.

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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:46 Weekly Warmup
11:17 In The News
28:39 The Great Book War
38:00 Audience Questions
57:37 Sermon Recap
1:21:23 Theology Sprint

Music
"Ventura"
Morgan Taylor
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Transcript

Warmup, Banter, And John 4:21

Bob 0:00

Hey out there, welcome to Behind the Pulpit for March the 10th, right? March 10th? March 10th, 2020. March 9th. March 9th. March 9th. March 6. March 9th, 2026. We're so glad you joined. I just jumped into the future right there. My name's Bob Irving. I'm one of your hosts here. I'm joined by the illustrious, illustrative, illustrious, right? Whatever the word is. Pastor Dave Henschel right here. Looking great in his uh zip up. Where you just got that at a conference we went to, Pastor Dave.

Dave 0:37

Tell us what's going on with those symbols. I am showing off my alumni allegiance here to what used to be known as Philadelphia Biblical University when I was there, but it's now known as Cairn University. And this is the Cairn logo. And I think it's a Trinitarian symbol. I haven't verified that.

Bob 0:53

Yeah, Trinitarian symbol with the shield. The shield of shield of faith or something?

Dave 0:59

Yeah.

Bob 0:59

Maybe.

Dave 0:59

Shield of the color.

Bob 1:01

It's cool. I like. By the way, uh, they they they stole the colors from Eastern University. Those were the colors of Eastern as well.

Dave 1:08

Is that right? Yeah, because the the maroon and the gray silver. Yeah. Yeah. Because the thing that is the reverse of Eastern is when I was there, they were the Eagles. Yes. And uh but they were called the Crimson Eagles. But they are not the Crimson Eagles anymore. They're not Eastern is. Oh, Eastern is, okay. But PBU used to be the Crimson Eagles. And now they're the Highlanders. That's a big thing. Eastern had something to say about that. When they became Karen, they changed the mascot too. So well, very cool. There's a little bit of history.

Bob 1:40

Maybe there's too much confusion with the college down the road, Eagles. Probably. Probably. They're both in the Philadelphia area. Anyway. All right. Hey, we're glad that you're back with us. Uh sorry we took a few week hiatus. We had some uh scheduling issues and things going on, but uh we're back and we're gonna be doing a recap of our disability series as well as talking a little bit about Jason Thacker's underground, his Psalm 8 message, uh all of that. So we got a lot to cover in the sermon recap portion. Uh but but before we get there, we gotta, since we're a little rusty, we gotta do the weekly warmup. So uh Tim, tell us what's what's happening here in our weekly warm-up for the folks. All right, welcome back everyone to Behind the Pulpit. We missed you guys. Uh hopefully you missed us too. Uh so yes. People were asking. There was clamor. Where when are you coming back? People love the show.

Tim 2:26

Everyone that watches, millions, millions of people who watch the show.

Bob 2:30

Um it's gonna be one of those shows that ages well. Like, you know, 30 years in the future, people will be finding us on YouTube. The throwback episode. It's gonna be like watching the Brady Bunch. And then Dave and we'll be in our 70s.

Tim 2:40

We'll come on here and be remembered that time when we talked about throwback to this episode. All right. Uh so for those of you who may have forgotten in our long time that we've been off, uh, the weekly warm-up is when we take a verse that corresponds with the episode number. Uh, so it's 421, episode season four, episode 21, and we ask the pastors as a warm-up to um to dissect and to interpret and to explain the message. So today, uh our weekly warm-up passage is from John chapter 4, verse 21, which says, Jesus said to her, Woman, believe me. Those nice, those nice cooling colors right there. Thank you, Pastor Bob. Uh, Jesus said to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. John 4, 21, in the English Standard Version. Pastor Bob, Pastor Dave, how should one interpret this passage?

Dave 3:31

Well, I'll start, but the conversation with the woman at the well is a fascinating conversation. Jesus didn't have to go through Sycar, Samaria, but he chose to do that because he has great compassion on those who are on the outside. He runs into this lady who's a Samaritan and she starts talking about how they worship at a different place, and there's a lot of background there. So the background is the Israelite people were conquered by the Assyrian Empire. And when the Assyrians did that, they were very wise. And what they knew was that if they would conquer a people, um, they would disintegrate if they didn't have cohesion religiously to uh keep them together. So they would have them intermarry and uh they would disperse the people amongst uh the other pagan peoples in the Assyrian Empire, and they would lose their sense of identity in that way. So those people were sort of half Jewish and then half something else. And then when they migrated back to the land around Sikar and the well, they were looked at suspiciously by the Jewish people who maintained their ethnicity. When they got conquered by Babylon, it was a different philosophy. They had like uh a sense of we're gonna keep this group together, relocate you over here. What was it in Walk Through the Bible? Assyria. Just think about that. Babylon back. So the Jewish people maintained scattered scattered.

Bob 4:53

Remember that scattered, so creation fall, flood.

Dave 4:56

And so the the Jewish people were more ethnically pure, which that's why we still have like the line of David, still pure, because the the Jewish people uh kept kept that, the line of Judah. And so that's what's going on there in terms of the animosity, and that's background. And then the other difference religiously between the Samaritans and the Jews was they had a different Bible. So the Samaritans, we know this from the Dead Sea Scrolls, they only believed in something called the Samaritan Pentateuch, which is close to the regular Jewish Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, but it has some differences. Most of the differences are insignificant, but it does relocate worship, and they believe that you didn't worship in Jerusalem. They believe you should worship on Mount Gerizim, which was, if you may remember, Moses brought all the people together in Deuteronomy, put them on one mountain and the other mountain, Mount Gerizim, Mount Ebal, and the curses were Mount Ebal and the blessings were Mount Gerizim. They thought you should worship on Mount Gerizim, and so that was a major difference. And the Jews and the Samaritans didn't get along with each other like at all. I have a couple quotes here from my notes. This one's from the wisdom of Ben Sirach, written in 200 BC. It says this there are two nations that my soul detests. The third is not a nation at all. The inhabitants of Mount Seir, that was Esau. The second, the Philistines. Third, the stupid people living at Shechem. So that's the way the Jewish people were writing and talking about the Samaritans during the intertestamental period. And here's another one from the Mishnah, which is a collection of Jewish interpretations of scripture from AD 200. This continued into the uh incoming centuries. It says this he that eats the bread of the Samaritans is like he who eats the flesh of swine. So the Jews hated the Samaritans, and vice versa, it was mutual. And um Jesus, with his grace and compassion approaches one, and John the apostle dumps one right into the middle of his gospel to teach us a lesson about the kingdom of God being maybe broader and wider than we originally had thought. I was a lot, I probably talked talk too long on that.

Bob 7:13

Oh, it's you you you did take a majority of that, but I will say that's also why there's a lot of prohibitions in the Old Testament against intermarrying, because I knew once you married somebody, they wanted to get you off of worshiping God. This was the issue with Solomon and others throughout the uh the Old Testament. But yeah, very good. All right. Are we warmed up, Tim? I know you tell me. Is the is the blood flow, is your is the blood flowing in your brain?

Spirit And Truth, Temple, And Kingdom

Dave 7:38

Well, let's finish the question. So the question is uh, you know, like what does this verse mean? So Jesus is saying there's gonna be a time where you don't worship there, lady, and we don't worship over here either. And he's predicting something major, like a huge change. He's not gonna have a local, you know, Israelite kingdom. It's gonna be busting the borders of that, wide open, it's gonna be international, it's gonna be global, and this the new location of the people of God is gonna be this new temple called the body of Christ. And so we won't have just a geographical center that's just limited. The spirit will come. The spirit's gonna come. Right. You know, in John 4, I have this little thing, and I I've I haven't found anyone else who said this, but Jesus says a time is coming and now is when the true worshipers will worship in in spirit and truth, right? And my question is, where do the red letters stop? Like, so you know how John sometimes, like in John chapter three, we're not sure where the red letters stop. My question is, was Gene was Jesus saying a time is coming when the true worshipers will worship, but it had not yet come. But then John, from his perspective, knowing Pentecost already happened, did he put a per parenthetical statement there? And and is it John who said, and now is, or was that Jesus saying basically the time has come, the Messiah is here? I I don't know anybody else who thinks that, so it's probably wrong. Usually when you're coming up with something new and original, it's probably because it's wrong. But that was just my little thought. I have a thought about that, and I've never chased down anybody who has verified. So it's in the Greek, it's there.

Bob 9:22

Oh yeah. But it's not it's not in the ESV.

Dave 9:25

Uh you know, it's a different verse, it's not verse 21 where he says that.

Bob 9:28

Um, verse 23. But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, meaning he's come to inaugurate the kingdom, right? At his first coming. Yeah. So you just don't know it yet.

Dave 9:42

Yeah. That's what most interpreters say, and it it's red there, right? Your whole thing's read. My question is is is the middle section parenthetical? Is the middle section supposed to be black? Is the middle section John saying Jesus said a time is coming, and I'm John looking back from it, and I'm writing this and I'm saying, and is now here, guys. It we ha it happened. Or is that just Jesus predicting it's here because he's inaugurating the kingdom in his person? So that's my my little pet heresy.

Bob 10:10

I don't know if it's a heresy. I could see Jesus saying it. Yeah, yeah. So one of the questions we'll ask when we get to heaven. Yes. All right. Well, very good. John chapter 4, verse 21. We'll we'll await what's coming next week. There'll be a uh 422 422. Oh, we're going right in order through the whole Bible. Well, he's saying that it's So it would be a four uh some 422. Oh some out of season. Oh, it's the date? No, it's the episode. We'd have season four, episode twenty-one. We have done the date. Season four, episode twenty-two, so he'll have to pick a different chapter four.

Tim 10:44

But the the problem is sometimes the episode doesn't come out on the date that we record it, so it's a little confusing.

Bob 10:49

Yeah.

Tim 10:50

So next season, uh, it'll be chapter fives that we are targeting. But for right now, we are targeting chapter four.

Bob 10:57

A systematic takedown of all the chapter fours in the Bible. When we get to season 114, we're already only one book left. We're already done with Jude and Third John, right? And they can't be asked. Yeah, they cannot.

Announcements And Housekeeping

Tim 11:12

Sorry, sorry, Jude. Sorry, and sorry, Jude and John for like part of your stuff. And now a very important message from the most honorable, the most learned, and unquestionably the most sharp-witted guardian of the law, her honor, Judge Millie Ninchetonian.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Well, hello, churchgoers. How lovely to see you outside of a Sunday morning. Might I remind you of the upcoming highlight event of the season? Wednesday, March 18th, 7 p.m. There will be our annual church business meeting. Please, I don't want to be forced to be melancholy. Please be there. You must. See you there. Ta-ta.

Bob 11:52

Now let's uh let's launch into our world famous segment. There's been a lot that's been happening in the last few weeks. Wonder what we're gonna talk about in the news. So, Pastor Dave, what what caught your eye in the last few weeks? Was there was there anything interesting that happened in the news?

Dave 12:12

I was a little surprised uh a week ago Saturday morning to learn that we had launched some attacks in Iran. That was certainly a major news story, and I think it's been the top headline of every single newspaper and news channel for the last ten days or so.

Global News: Iran, War, And Just War Theory

Bob 12:29

So so as that has happened, we've been hearing that Iran's Navy is at the bottom of the sea, the Ayatollah is is no more, and uh the the the assaults continue. Uh seven U.S. service members have been killed in action, uh, which is tragic, and um yeah, lots more stuff has happened. Iran was launching attacks on other nations, and then apparently they stopped and apologized. Uh whoops, I guess. Uh, some people were speculating they were doing that to get them to get the US to stop. But um we're not geopolitical experts here. I know there's a lot that's gone on with the history of Iran over the last fifty years, um, in terms of our relationship with them, and there was a I wasn't alive in 1979, but you were, and uh I'm sure you remember when you were in diapers about the uh the hostages and all that. Then the Shah got kicked out and uh I'm sure it was on the news.

Dave 13:30

I wanna was a little small to be paying attention to that stuff back then, but um my my my family has told me about the days in uh Iran before the the takeover. And it was a very different place back then. Very uh modern type of economy, right?

Bob 13:47

Very different so there's been speculation that Iran over the years has always tried to go after the U.S. They call the U.S. the Great Satan, um, you know, things like attacks on the USS coal and even the war in Iraq, um, them meddling around with things and of course having an antagonistic stance toward uh the nation of Israel. Um so there's a lot to be said about that. We're we're gonna link in the show notes a podcast from the Colson Center for Christian Worldview. John Stone Street interviewed a uh military expert um on the idea of just war, and he had a lot of really good things to say. So we're gonna let them speak uh to that. But we thought that what we could do uh today about this new story was talk with you a little bit about what are the historical parameters of a just war. I had a few folks ask about that. And then there's some theological pieces to this um as it relates to Islam and Christianity and eschatology that we wanted to dialogue a bit about. So let's start with the just war categories. Um so the whole idea behind just war, and I'm forgetting who was the original scholar that that put it out there. Do you remember who the original person was?

Dave 15:00

So there's two major Christian uh theologians in the history of the church in the last 2,000 years that have thought very deeply about just war theory. The first one was Augustine, and then 700 years after that, Thomas Aquinas uh also has different writings on just war. There's a lot of overlap with what they teach, but those are the two main sources, one of them kind of from the Church Father's era, and then one of them who's a medieval theologian, the Doctor of the Church, Summa Theologica. Uh so both of those people are sort of well known for their just war writings.

Bob 15:31

Right. So there was um seven categories that they came up with that have been uh uh synthesized over the years that are criterion for a just war. And the first one is uh if if the war has a just cause, a just cause, meaning that there's a legitimate reason for you to go in, um, not just something you made up because you you didn't like them, but there was something that was just that was required there. Number two, um that you go in with the right intention. You know, so again, uh just going in toppling a regime because you don't like them uh would would be considered probably not an actual right motivation. Number three is that there's a legitimate authority um and in this case, uh correct me if I'm wrong, this is that that you have the legitimate authority to go in and and do what you're doing, right? That there's not just anybody can launch a war. Correct, yeah.

Dave 16:31

And so the you know, the framers of our particular republic put in certain powers to the executive branch and then certain powers to the legislative branch, and those were divided purposely, but to uh put some checks and balances into who who makes that decision.

Bob 16:50

Yeah, and so there's been a lot of debate in this in this particular case because there was something called the War Powers Act of what was the date, 1970s. 1973. 1973, that gave the president, the chief executive, commander-in-chief, latitude to go and uh make attacks. And and I think that was initially put in place because warfare is is different now than it was uh back in, say, World War II, which was the last time that Congress, I think, officially declared war.

Dave 17:17

Um basically says if the president were to take action militarily, he has forty-eight hours to notify Congress, and then he can uh continue to make executive decisions for sixty days without needing Congress to declare war formally. So we're outside of that framework right now, so it's only been about ten days or so. So we have another fifty before Congress has to declare it. Right. Right. Then there's some definitions of what what is a war exactly. And is it different from a surgical strike? Does it mean boots on the ground? Is it depending upon how you define it, you know, then you're gonna have to decide whether or not the right protocols were followed.

Seven Criteria Of Just War Explained

Bob 18:07

And that'll probably only get more complicated in the future as we have more robotic drone type things that happen. So anyway, so yeah, you need a legitimate authority to to ha declare war. Uh number four is that you go in as the last resort, that you've exhausted all of their options before you actually engage in a military strike. Uh number five is that you have assessed the probability of success that you going in uh and actually engaging in this act of warfare is gonna make a difference after you're done. Number si uh I'm sorry, number six is proportionality, that you're you're responding in proportionality uh to the way that you've been attacked. Uh, you know, so if somebody I guess sinks a ship and then you you send several nuclear bombs on the country, it would be out of proportion. And then last would be discrimination. Are are you engaging in in the right discrimination of uh the people that you're attacking? More needs to be said about that. How would you uh categorize the discrimination piece?

Dave 19:15

So the phrase I think is non-combatant immunity. And so if you are at war with a certain people group or a country, then um you would want to be careful to protect innocent civilians from getting embroiled in the conflict who are not part of the other country's army.

Bob 19:34

Yeah. So so those are the seven categories for uh in the just war theory. Um it's obviously a complicated thing. Again, like we said, we're not we're not geopolitical experts. Um, but uh I would encourage you to go listen to that podcast. Um the guy on there does does kind of walk through these these ideas as well as offering some challenges for if some of this needs to be rethought in the case of how modern warfare is waged. Um but where we can dialogue here is is on the theological end, and there's some interesting eschatological end times uh themes uh that that are at play here. And so uh why don't we start with Islam?

Dave 20:16

So to understand what's going on theologically with uh Islam, uh you know, Bob and I just got a question this morning. Is there such a thing as an Islamic seminary? Of course, of course there is. Uh there's a major one in Texas here, and there's a few others in the United States as well as across the world. If you understand the theology of what's going on in a certain branch of Islam, then it would help you understand uh what's going on in at least in some segments. So when the prophet Muhammad passed away, there was great debate as to who was the legitimate successor to Muhammad to continue in the religion of Islam. Uh some people thought that uh it had to be a relative of Mohammed, and um that that particular school of thinking became the Shia branch of Islam, and that's a much smaller segment of Islam. The majority of the Islamic nations are Sunni uh Muslims, and so that is less particular with regards to who can be the next leader of Islam. So there was a guy named Ali who was Muhammad's cousin, and he was the first one to take over uh after Muhammad. Ali was then assassinated, things got kind of complicated.

Bob 21:36

Abu Abu Bakr? Uh he's later on. I wish I to I took a Middle Eastern history class and I always remember Abu Bakr.

Islam 101: Sunni, Shia, And Eschatology

Dave 21:43

I don't remember when when he came along. Then this the Sunnis um thought it was okay to choose the next Muslim leader from the Muslim community. So that was what happened there. So when you're thinking about Iran and particularly the Ayatollah, the leadership there. You're talking about Shia. So uh Shiite Muslims uh have a very specific kind of theology and a very specific kind of eschatology, and that means last things. So what what hap happens at the end of the world? So we we have our own eschatology. Um and you know, Christians believe certain things. Now we disagree on some details, uh, but we generally think about certain things. Should we mention Nero? We have a great debate uh on Nero's place in there. So why don't you maybe share what what is what's the basic uh tenets of Christian eschatology that anybody can agree with? Like what what's the the things we can all say? We're all on the same page about this.

Bob 22:46

Everybody be on the same page about the fact that Jesus, of course, will come back. He's gonna he's gonna be coming back uh physically, physically, bodily. Yes. Uh everybody agrees that there's gonna be some type of of uh tribulation, they just don't put that in maybe the same order and how that looks is different. Um everybody agrees there will be a last judgment uh of the living and the dead. Uh there's gonna be a new heavens and a new earth. Um uh there's gonna be some some kind of rise of of antichrist. Now how that plays out and who you know when that happens and who that is, uh there's debate about that. Um I forgetting, those are some of the major main tenets. Yeah. So you know, we have great hope.

Dave 23:31

Coming future kingdom. So in Islam, uh so the eschatology is um that they believe that there is a a person called the 12th Imam. The Imam is like the leader of Islam. So the 12th Imam descended from Ali, um, which was that would be the bloodline of Muhammad, and he kind of went into hiding. He went he disappeared, but he didn't die, that's their understanding. And um they think that he will reappear, the 12th Imam, uh, at the end of history, and he will establish justice and defeat all evil in the world. Uh, this will also be accompanied by something called the return of the Mahdi. That's another figure, kind of a messianic figure in Islam, who will bring justice and final judgment at the end. And believe it or not, uh someone will come to assist the figure named Mahdi. And you will never believe who it is. They think Jesus is gonna he's gonna bring the assist, right?

Bob 24:30

Yeah, he's gonna give him the Ali oop, right?

Dave 24:32

Yes, he's they call him Isa. Uh they think Jesus is not the uh you know the the God who became man. He they don't confess that Jesus is the the you know the proper Jewish Messiah, the king of the world. They don't profess the same Jesus that we profess. Um but they think Jesus was a great prophet, and they think this Jesus is going to come and return and assist the Mahdi in defeating all of these evil forces, and then there will be a period of great uh uh global justice and uh true Islam will come. Then then they will have the final resurrection and then the judgment. So there's a lot more to it, but that's the kind of eschatology that they're looking to, and so some people in um that part of the world are expecting a great cataclysm at the end, and there might even be some thinking that we can spur this along. And so um but we're kind of bringing in the the end of days, and so there's uh a certain eschatology there that would be in your thinking when you're coming to, let's say, a geopolitical negotiating table, and they're asking you to give up things like nuclear weapons and to you know give up certain things that you think are very important, and um you would be more resistant if that's your ideology, that's gonna drive some of your politics as well. So that's um maybe a little bit of theology behind the scenes that people maybe need to be aware of as they're watching kind of the headlines and what's going on in the news geopolitically as well.

Bob 26:03

So now, of course, on the on the Christian side, there's different thoughts about how Israel factors into this and how this is this part of the preparation for the the end times and Israel and this great attack, and you have you know Russia now, I hear, is is assisting Iran, the great bear of the north, right? Um so there's there's different commentary on on that from the Christian perspective. Um Right. Yeah.

Christian End Times Views And Israel

Dave 26:27

Yeah, so from from the the classical dispensationalist perspective, the nation of Israel geopolitically would play a very large role in the end times events. So a lot of classical dispensationalists will see 1948 and the reformation of Israel with its current setup as a fulfillment of the prophecy that God will regather his people to the land again. And then there are certain passages in the New Testament, such as in uh the Thessalonian letters, where it it appears that at the end there's gonna be another Jewish temple, and then there's gonna be an antichrist figure that comes and uh demands worship inside of that temple. And so someone from a dispensationalist perspective might be thinking there could be a third temple that's gonna be built there at the Temple Mount, where right now the you know the Islamic mosque is there. But that's a a very different way of thinking of what's what's gonna happen at the end. And then other Christian theologians would say, Well, if you're Jewish, then you would come into the kingdom of Jesus the same exact way a Gentile would come into the kingdom of Jesus by grace through faith, and there's not a very specific narrow uh promise for the geopolitical Israel in the future, but rather um they come into the church just as anyone else would come into the church by placing their faith in in Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. And and there wouldn't be things like a literal fulfillment of a uh third temple and a literal fulfillment of the land promises again. So there's different ways Christians think about what's going on and what's gonna come in the future as well. Some of that comes into play into people's thinking as well. So there's different views on that. We we went through a lot of those Nero uh in spades a couple years ago.

Bob 28:10

If you want to go back and go back and watch our uh the the unveiling of Jesus Christ uh series, you can go back and watch that. Right. All right, so that obviously is happening in the news. Uh keep an eye on it. Uh, I would say pray for uh the president, pray for our military, pray for the Christians in Iran, pray that um, you know, God would do a work even in the midst of this, and uh, we trust his sovereignty and providence even when things are difficult. Thus ends in the news.

Tim 28:39

Ladies, we want to make sure you know about a very special weekend coming up this spring. The NBC Women's Retreat will take place on April 17th through the 19th in Burden Hand, Pennsylvania, in the heart of Lancaster County. The retreat will be held at Amish View Inn and Suites, a beautiful hotel surrounded by Amish farmland. It's a peaceful setting where you can step away from the busyness of everyday life and spend intentional time seeking the Lord. The theme for this weekend is In His Presence, drawn from 1 Chronicles 1611, which says, Seek the Lord and His strength, seek his presence continually. Throughout the weekend, women will grow together in their understanding of prayer, deepen their walk with the Lord. The retreat speaker will be Gail Lore, a faithful teacher who has led Bible studies for many years here at NBC, and she continues to disciple young women through the church's circle of sisters ministry. This weekend will also include fellowship, great meals, and an optional trip to see the Joshua Show at Sight and Sound Theater, along with many other activities in the area. If you're planning to attend, registration is open now through the women's ministry page on the church website. The retreat is already filling up quickly, so make sure to sign up soon. Don't miss this opportunity for a weekend of rest, fellowship, and growing together in the Lord in his presence.

Bob 29:45

And now let's move on. Speaking of war, let's move on to our next segment, the great book war. And you guys can be the judges to whether or not this war is just as well. Um I feel like there was some unproportionality over the over the years here. Yes, I I still I still think there are there are claims of the water.

Prayer And Pastoral Posture In Conflict

Dave 30:02

By the way, I was listening to Breakpoint Saturday, and they had a fight about books. They did you listen to Saturday Maria? No. Yeah, so Maria was sneaking in book recommendations through the show, and John got irritated. See, everyone listens to Side in the Pulpit. This is what you do. You keep Maria, you keep on, you have like so many books inside the show.

Tim 30:20

Yeah, Stone Street listens, and uh yeah, he listens to our hey, this is a good idea. Let's let's let's let's throw it in breakpoint. So, John, thank you. Thank you.

Bob 30:29

He got some seg segment ideas from behind the pulpit for breakpoint. Yes.

Tim 30:33

Yeah, he's a big fan, actually. We are an affiliate, we're an affiliate member. Yeah, he yeah, he's very excited for us to come to the conference.

Dave 30:39

Um all I know is we're living in a moment.

Women’s Retreat And Holy Week Notices

Tim 30:43

Civilizational moment. And the the current book war moment that we are in is Pastor Dave with his six to nine lead um over Pastor Bob. And it was a very long time ago that we had the last um voting. So I'll remind you of the books that were voted upon. Um Pastor Bible. What did we recommend three weeks ago? It was about eating amphibians. Um eat that frog. Oh, eat the frog. The fourth edition, uh, 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastination. Um, Pastor Dave's book was Getting the Message of Plan for Interpreting and Applying the Bible by Dr. Daniel M. Doriani. And that was the book, surprise, surprise, that did win. Uh Getting the Message uh by Doriani was was your winner. It was a lot of votes this time around. Uh 14 responses, so thank you for voting. Keep it up. Um Pastor Dave receiving 64.3% of the vote.

Bob 31:34

Well, it's just it's very clear that those that are voting are not not getting things done. They're just sitting here vote. You know, it's funny.

Tim 31:42

Pastor Bob, you were onto something because this was keep insulting your viewers, Bob.

Dave 31:46

This was that's a good strategy.

Tim 31:48

David Letterman's strategy. This is one of the longest times in between a vote reveal, and this had the most votes. So people are indeed procrastinating on their votes. They are, see? That's what I said. You got to eat the frog. This gotta be your frog that you eat this week. This is voting on time. Um, so here's the score: six to ten. Um, not out of reach. We have plenty of episodes remaining.

Bob 32:07

We're a grand slam away, Tim. We are a grand slam away. So that's being a different ballgame.

Tim 32:11

Could this be the run? Pastor Bob's got to go on a heater here, so we're gonna let him start right now by recommending a book.

Book War: AI, The Quran, And Resources

Bob 32:18

Well, I will say the book I'm gonna recommend. I could not, we had given away the physical copies of this book. So for those that hate the digital uh digital um recommendation, I'm sorry I don't have the physical copy because they were given away because they're so popular. Um but our speaker this last weekend, Jason Thacker, has written a number of books. Uh one of the first books he wrote was called The Age of AI. The Age of AI. Uh wonderful book, kind of ahead of its time. And uh I I think he was mentioning he's gonna be working on an updated edition, but this is still worth thinking through. I I was sitting in our Birds and the Bees class um yesterday, and there was a lot of talk about AI and how do we how do we teach our kids how to use this and ChatGPT and all these other crazy things. This book will equip you on how to think that through and give you some practical steps. He does have a follow-up book called Following Jesus in a Digital Age, but I'm recommending this one today. Start here, Jason Thacker, for those of you that liked him this weekend. There it is. It's one of the best covers that we've had. It is it is quite a beautiful cover. I like the yellow, it just pops. But what what did the mask behind it mean?

Dave 33:31

What is that like it's like Jason from Friday the 13th?

Bob 33:34

No, it's like it's coat. It's the uh, you know, the the the you know computer code, like the matrix. It's the hacker it's a face. I feel like it's a hockey mask, and I'm gonna be able to do it. Yeah, look, I'm moving it. Look, there he is.

Dave 33:44

It's not meant to be creepy. Maybe you should be scared to be a good idea. It is intentionally meant to be creepy coming for you this week. It is. Okay.

Bob 33:50

All right, what do you got over there?

Dave 33:52

This is a rerun. So a rerun. Yeah, but I think Bob recommended this a while ago. But in light of the fact that we're talking about um, I thought I feel like he recommended this. I could be wrong. In light of the fact that we're talking about what's going on in the Middle East and the uh theological underpinnings of certain branches of Islam, I think you should pick up James White's book, What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Quran. The Quran is hard to read. Um, it there's not an orderly nature to it. There's some surahs that Muhammad wrote when he was younger, and then other surahs that he wrote when he was older, and they don't necessarily go in order, and they some of them like contradict each other. And so if you are trying to work your way through the Quran, which I have done, it's hard. And so that book helped me kind of get the basic gist of what I need to be concerned about in here and uh helped me make a few key markings of what you know what the Quran says and how Christians disagree with with what uh the Quran says regarding their authority using the scriptures. So James White, what every Christian needs to know about the Quran. He also has a couple cool uh videos about this on YouTube, and he does things like he doesn't call them interfaith dialogues, but he he has um discussions with uh you know Muslim scholars, and it's helpful to know what are the distinctions. And uh I I think he does a really good job graciously walking through the differences and just being honest about what the differences are. So, James White, uh check it out. I think you'll enjoy that. Next day delivery on Amazon too. That's true. Wow.

Bob 35:27

So I I did I picked that book up after we went to um we did a uh mission trip with Amoon Sharon, one of our world partners, down in Piscataway. There's a huge mosque here in New Jersey, and we went and visited and then talked with the the Imam down there. Um and I went and picked that up because they gave us a Quran. Um by the way, this this month in our Colson Fellows program, we're reading um uh Nabeel Kureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. That's another good book. I'm almost done. So I will yeah, it's a great book, right? Did you get to the you got to the end? No, no, I'm about to three quarters of the way through. I won't spoil it for you because the end is pretty amazing. But um uh yeah, I I won't recommend that because I'm sure I have I have done that before, but that's a great follow-up book after this one to talk learn how to talk to Muslims.

Dave 36:12

So what's cool about this, one more thing, is there's a glossary in the back. So sometimes you hear words and you're like, what is that? Like like Tawhid. What what's Tawheed? And you know, I just threw out some words for you, Sunni or Shia, or you know, things like the hadith, those are the writings of Muhammad, which by the way, that has a lot of that eschatology I was talking about. So if you need like a dictionary to understand, Islam and has its glossary in the back, which is helpful too. Have you read the hadith?

Bob 36:39

Uh bits and pieces. Okay. Not not not like the Quran, though. No. All right. Quran. The Quran. Um, by the way, you shouldn't have another book on top of the Quran. You're being very bad right now.

Dave 36:50

Is that right?

Bob 36:50

Oh, yeah. They they they consider that quite holy, right?

Dave 36:53

You can't have a book on top.

Bob 36:54

I don't think you can put it on the ground. I think you put I think it has to always be on the top. And then you have only with your right hand, right?

Tim 37:00

Oh, that's right. I was listening to Nabil. I believe that was a left-handed pickup from Pastor Dave there.

Bob 37:05

You made a bunch of faux vendors. You did. Nobody's listening to you anymore.

Dave 37:09

I try to be sensitive, not that I think that the Quran is, you know, uh anything authoritative, but I I don't want to unnecessarily uh turn people off when I'm trying to be persuasive. So I remember having coffee one time with uh a brother who was Muslim, and the manner in which I was speaking about Muhammad was uh jarring to him. And so I've I've learned to sort of temper my comments just to be not necessarily honoring toward Muhammad, but just respectful of other people.

Tim 37:41

So well, as big as this show is, it's actually not that popular in the Muslim community. We're not we're not very big there. Well in the whole thing. We're getting there. We're getting there.

Bob 37:48

We've we've gotten some comments that make me wonder, so we'll see. We're getting there. All right, so what we'll we'll put an end to truce to the book war, uh ceasefire, as it were, at the moment, and we'll come back and see what happens uh next week.

Audience Q1: Gifts Vs Fruit And Maturity

Tim 38:00

As we approach the most meaningful week in the Christian calendar, we want to invite you to celebrate Holy Week with us here in NBC. We have a full weekend planned, and we would love for you and your family to be a part of it. Things begin on Saturday, March 28th, with our hair-raising egg party that'll take place from 10 a.m. to 12 noon with a VIP hour for families with special needs at 9 30. It's always a great morning for families, kids, and friends to come together and celebrate the joy of the season. Then we move into Holy Week itself. A Monday, Thursday at 7 p.m., we'll gather for a special service remembering the Last Supper, featuring a dramatic presentation focused on the events of the upper room. The next evening, Good Friday at 7 p.m., we'll reflect together on the seven last words of Jesus Christ, remembering the sacrifice that stands at the center of our faith. And then comes Easter Sunday, the celebration of the resurrection. This year we'll be having three services at 8 o'clock, 9 30, and 11 a.m. as we gather to worship and celebrate the risen Christ together. So mark your calendars now for our egg party on March 28th, Monday, Thursday, and Good Friday at 7 p.m., and Easter Sunday at 8, 9.30, or 11 a.m. Come celebrate Holy Week with us here at NBC as we remember the cross and rejoice in the resurrection.

Bob 39:07

Now let's move on to our audience questions. We have two rather lengthy ones today, and uh I'll let you introduce the first one, Tim, and then I'll maybe I'll kick off the second one. The uh The King of Questions. That that seems like a shirt we must get. The King of Questions. By the way, uh I before you add before you put this in here, so since we took a break, John did come and give me um a book. He gave me um uh same lake different uh same same lake different boat. Is that the right that's the right category um by Stephanie Hubak for the disability series, but then he also brought me a package of Kit Cats because he was told those are my favorite, and uh they're gone, so I can't show we waited too long. I was gonna bring them on Monday. Fill the mailbox. Although I need to cut out all the sugar, so uh maybe give me the sugarless ones in the future. I don't know if those exist. I'll continue continue, sorry. I'll get but thank you, John.

Tim 40:08

I appreciate that. All right, from John. Uh how does one know that they are using their spiritual gifts so that God will be praised? How are spiritual gifts connected to spiritual fruit? In Galatians 5 22 through 23, uh it lists the fruits of the fruit of the Spirit. In 1 Peter 4 10, it says, Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God's grace in various forms. And in Matthew 7 20, it says, Thus by their fruit you will recognize them. Then in verse 22 to 23, Jesus says, Man, will you say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you, away from me, you evildoers.

Dave 40:54

You know, Bob and I were at Cairn University last Thursday, and we listened to three conference talks by Jared Wilson. He did a book called Lest We Drift and kind of highlighted some things from that book. And he talked about the fruit of the spirit in Galatians five, and I I thought it was an interesting take, and I never really um heard it said like this, but he said in Galatians five, there's a list of the acts of the flesh, and those are all deeds things you do. And then the fruit of the spirit are not a deeds list, it is a list of character traits, like who you are and things that come from the heart. I thought, oh, that's really interesting. And what he did was he was contrasting like the law-gospel thing. So life under the law, under compulsion, produces these acts of the flesh that are harmful, and then life uh rooted in the gospel and you know driven by the the spirit inside is very different and it produces a different kind of fruit as well. So I I'll just mention that from the conference.

Bob 41:58

But uh why don't you well let me just tag on to that? I thought that was a wonderful observation as well. But uh it struck me a number of years ago that the uh the great Tim Keller, in one of his talks on the fruit of the spirit, he made the point of saying that it's the the fruit of the spirit, not the fruits of the spirit. And you know, I think many people get this idea that oh well I have patience, I got love, but I really struggle with wisdom or whatever else it is. And uh he said, no, it's uh all of those things are character traits we should be developing in our life, and if you're a Christian who's indwelt by the by the power of the spirit, these are character traits that we'll be developing in your life. And um I think that's a great way of thinking about it.

Dave 42:37

What does it mean if I lose my fruit of the spirit when someone says fruits of the spirit? Does that mean I don't have when I get annoyed with them for saying fruits?

Bob 42:46

Does that mean I don't have I no, I think you still have you're still battling the flesh and your sanctification, but you still have the ability to cultivate that by the power of the spirit. That's why you're I'm trying. Killing your f killing your flesh, or what kill what what uh what is it, uh Thomas Odin? Uh or Thomas Owen. John Owen? John Owen. Be killing sin, or it'll be killing you, right? Yeah. And um yeah, you gotta try it, man. Mortify your flesh and let the letters.

Dave 43:15

Also, when they say revelations Psalm. No, no, no. No, it's revelation. You know the revelation.

Tim 43:21

You know the fruit of the spirit song.

Bob 43:23

The songs of Psalm and the Song of Solomon.

Tim 43:25

I don't remember the fruit of the spirit song. The fruit of the spirit's not a coconut. And you and then you they say them. I just actually I did a um I did a youth group talk on the fruit of the spirit recently, and I said the fruit of the spirit is actually like a pomegranate because it is one fruit that is filled with many different things that make up one fruit.

Bob 43:44

It is true, right? I mean how you yeah. How can you say I don't want this, but I want that? You need you need all of them, right? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentlemen, self control.

Audience Q2: Intersex, Dysphoria, And Care

Dave 43:54

Back to the question. So the gifts of the spirit are functional. Enable you to do ministry, uh teaching, leadership, evangelism, um, you know, administration, prophecy. Those are very outward. The fruit of the spirit are very inward. They are um postures, they are uh you know things that are coming up from the inside, and we can um manifest the the character of Christ when we had them. And spiritual gifts were all over the church at Corinth. Everybody had wonderful gifts being put on display, and they had like a lot of fruit issues. So I think there's a common problem where people measure spiritual maturity based on gifts, not fruit. And they see how could you how could you complain that person's so gifted? I mean, look at the way that they are using their powerful gifts, but um, those are not measurements of you know spiritual sanctification. Yeah, they're they're they're given as gifts by God, but the fruit is very different, and so Jesus says um by their fruit you will recognize them. He doesn't say by their gifts you'll recognize them. And so be very careful about that. The illustration I gave when I taught on 1 Corinthians uh 12 when you're on sabbatical was like um top gun. So top gun.

Bob 45:18

Here's my here's my top gun illustration. Did you come out dressed like Tom Cruise? I should have. Your bomber jack and your aviators, yeah.

Dave 45:29

So I mean, I saw Top Gun when I was when I was a kid, and who doesn't like Top Gun? If you're a young boy, you know, you got these F-18s uh going really fast. I feel the need for speed, and they're you know it's great for a young, immature, adolescent boy that wants to see fast things and things blow up, and there's a lot of you know, um uh uh you know activity, it's energetic, but it's it has nothing to do with maturity. Whereas, so I'm having this conversation with Michelle Clemmie, who loves Top Gun. Uh hey, Michelle, if you're watching, you remember this conversation?

Bob 46:07

So Michelle Is Michelle a frequent uh viewer. We'll find out.

Dave 46:10

We'll find out if we get a comment. Who isn't? Yeah. So I'm talking to Michelle. Or who shouldn't be? This is right when Maverick was coming out. Yes. So I was talking to Michelle about like Top Gun thing. She loves Top Gun. Can't wait to Top Gun. And I'm like, well, what what do you love about it? She goes, Well, the love story. And I'm like, Kelly McGill. Shoot, man. What what was the love story?

Bob 46:33

There was a love story in there.

Dave 46:34

I was I was I really had to think about that part of the plot. Um and so my my thought there was okay, you know, a very immature young Dave was was interested in you know the the the sounds and the blasts and the you know the the rockets and all that, and I was not paying attention to the more mature plot line that was going through the movie of you know a love relationship. And so um my illustration about that is like Top Gun. So the gifts of the spirit are top gun adolescent boy stuff. This is you know flashy, it's you know, you know, very obvious. And then the fruit of the spirit is that that hidden, you know, mature, deep relational stuff that's going on that you you need a little maturity before you can even recognize that plot line. So that that's my illustration for the gifts versus the fruit.

Bob 47:31

Yeah, it's very good. Um great balls of fire. Yeah, you know, it's interesting also when we went through the first Timothy series, when you come to the requirements for elders, uh, all those requirements are character traits. You know, not I mean, some uh you know, you have the ability to teach and all that, but the the main character traits are main uh qualifications are character traits that the spirit does in your life. Right. Yeah.

Dave 47:56

It's very different from who do I want to hire as a quarterback on the Cowboys? Right. I don't really care about your maturity. I want to know if you can do the job, right?

Bob 48:06

Um, but when it comes to being an elder, but ideally you have both, right?

Dave 48:09

Ideally, you got kit gifts and fruit. Yeah. But when it comes to an elder, if you're gonna have one or the other, you're gonna choose the maturity.

Bob 48:16

You need a fruity gift, right? Yeah. That's a good question, John. It's a great question. Thanks, John, for keeping us on our toes. Appreciate that. Question two. So bring me some fruit, not uh not a not a Kit Kat. Fruit's also got sugar. It's natural sugar, which is different than refined sugar. It is different. There you go. All right. What's the next question here, Tim? This is another good one.

Tim 48:38

All right, this is from an anonymous or just didn't choose to put their name. Uh, having Jason Thacker here was wonderful. Thank you.

Bob 48:47

That is four exclamation points. That's what we're talking about. That's how wonderful it was. By the way, did you happen to notice how tall Jason Thacker was? I was not expecting the height. He was like six five. He was huge. He's a tall guy. He is. And you missed it, Tim.

Tim 49:03

I did miss it. I have a question. Uh, although only 1.7% of babies are born with intersex, both male and female organs, Jason gave us such a great answer, Re, trans people, uh, that we didn't need the burden of choosing our sex, God create us, male or female. But how do we deal with this very small percentage of births where parents have to make a choice early on in their lives?

Culture Shift: Lawsuits, Medicine, And Youth Care

Dave 49:29

So there's a statistic being given here in the question that I think I'd like to just uh ask some questions about. Like, what number do you mean there? So I looked it up, and there's different ways to measure whether or not someone is intersex. So, yes, if someone is born with uh very obvious, anatomical, clearly ambiguous genitalia, um that's gonna be a much lower percentage than 1.7% of the population. That's gonna be uh, here's the number, 0.018% actually have that type of issue where parents would have to make a decision early on about which direction they're gonna go for their child, and usually that's what they do. But there are other less obvious examples of intersex that are going on hormonally that would bring that percentage up, as you're saying. So, you know, I think we would think about this in terms of where are we in the story? Creation, fall, redemption, consummation. In a fallen world, we have a lot of different kinds of issues that can happen physically. We've been doing this a whole series on disability, and these kinds of things occur. And so we would see that as being part of a broken world that's soon gonna be redeemed and made new. Uh, remember we've got to shake off the dust.

Bob 50:57

We gotta we'll talk about that in a second, right? Something else.

Dave 51:00

There's three things we gotta do. Shake off the dust was one of them. Saver the seed, shake off the dust, and listen for the trumpet. Yeah. Do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself about. So, all seriousness, you know, that's something that I think parents in consultation with their physician would need to decide. Um, and usually that child is leaning in one direction or the other, and they're gonna make a decision based on that. But it's a very difficult decision, and then they would still uh treat the genders as if they're binary, but you're you're going to be treating that uh child as one having a disability who's gonna need treatment to fully uh um flourish in their their gender.

Bob 51:41

Yeah. Well, I think it's also important to make the distinction that the the intersex conversation, as you mentioned, is is there's a physical issue that's manifesting itself, which is categorically different than something like gender dysphoria or transgender identity, where it's it's a feeling that's inside of you. Um so that this is something that's different than that. And um in the Well, see okay, so that's the bait and switch, though.

Dave 52:06

Okay, right? So people say, well, there is this such a thing as this biological phenomenon that occurs. Therefore, it must be okay for someone just to mentally, emotionally, physically, uh psychologically just identify with the other gender and then need to, and we would say, hold on, I think you just made a category error there, and you're you're you're doing a bait and switch, and you're we're acknowledging as a result of the fall, these certain things do occur as genetic anomalies. We're not gonna go so far as to say uh mental, emotional, you know, psychological feelings of being a different gender than you are, give you a legitimate reason to reject the God-given gender that that you've been right identified with at birth, um, recognized, uh that was recognized at your birth.

City Relief Outreach Invitation

Sermon Recap: Disability Series Highlights

Bob 52:56

Yeah. Although it's we would say, and and we did cover this in the series um on the upside down glory, was that the fall didn't just corrupt the soul, but it also corrupted nature itself. So Dave did a message on creation groaning, which I don't know if we've if we we got to talk about, but maybe we can today. You know, so things like genetic anomalies and developmental disorders, these variations, these physical issues are are all part of this uh the the theological term is noetic and biological effects of the fall of a disordered creation that one day Jesus is going to come back and make and make right and and bring healing to the world. Um so so this would fall under that category. Now, how the question about how do we minister to them? I think one of the things that we emphasized in our series, and and Jason Thacker did as well in in the underground sessions, was to lead with the Imago Dei, the image of God, that you you you have value because of who you are, not because of what you what you do. Every person uh is born with the image of God um in them. Um I I think the I there's another sense of distinguishing between the biological reality and uh and an ideological agenda, which is what you were getting at right there. There is an agenda out there, uh, just just to be frank, about pushing people in a certain direction because identity, finding your identity and in your feelings or who you are, or what the world says you should be, um, and it's even inf influencing um you know medical establishments and educational institutions and politics and all that, um, you know, uh we have to be careful of that. And I think it just in terms of ministering to people, it's always wise to walk with them in their groaning. That's again the Romans 8 passage we talked about, um, that again we'll we'll say more about. Um, you know, resist making this a culture war uh issue when you're talking with people individually, because they are people that are impacted by this. We have to hear their story. Uh folks that are impacted by this, you talk with one person, you've talked with one person. And so it's important to hear them, to walk with them, and ultimately to point them to the truth of scripture, uh, the Christian worldview, biblical worldview, and ultimately, first and foremost, uh the the savior who can change and transform their lives and ultimately guarantees hope in the future.

Dave 55:19

So I don't know if you're about about a month ago, there was a major uh lawsuit, and the detransitioner won two million dollars in a malpractice lawsuit in New York. It was kind of a landmark decision.

Bob 55:33

It's gonna be more of that.

Dave 55:34

First of its kind, yeah. After someone was a detransitioner, sued their psychologist and surgeon for their medical malpractice regarding a double massectomy that she received when she was sixteen. The court sided with her and they held the doctors accountable for pressuring her into what is an irreversible surgery at such a young age. Uh, the book by Abigail Schreier's Irreversible Damage. Yes.

Bob 55:59

And that's what sneaking in another book. Another book snuck in. Yeah. Uh also her book Bad Therapy, too. See, I I countered you right there.

Dave 56:08

Her mother um also told the daughter that um was was putting pressure there as well. And the and the issue was you know, would you rather have a living son or a dead daughter? You know, they were saying this is going to become a suicidal issue. And, you know, I think that kind of pushiness might be on its way out. And in fact, after that case, I don't know if you saw this, this other article came out in the Atlantic of all places. The title of the article was The Tide Goes Out on Youth Gender Medicine. And it was about how America's doctors are no longer united on the wisdom of medicalizing gender dysphoria in minors. And you have to have a subscription behind a paywall to read this article, but it was a very interesting take on things might be changing in the culture around this issue now, that we're starting to see cases where they're holding doctors accountable for this kind of behavior, and then finances get involved, insurance gets involved, and that's going to become less and less common, a doctor willing to do this if they know that there could be potential legal and financial consequences.

Bob 57:14

And I remember hearing people say this a while ago that as soon as suing and money gets involved, that's when that's when things will actually actually change. That's sad that it has to be that way, but I guess it has to be that way. Yeah. Sigh. All right. Well, thank you. Great question, but both great questions. Um, that's what we want more of. Give us more questions so we can dialogue about those. We appreciate that.

Tim 57:37

Hey guys, even though March is well underway, it's already time to start thinking about our April City Relief outreach. On April the 25th, we'll be heading back into New York City to partner with our friends at City Relief to serve our friends who are experiencing homelessness. It's always a powerful day of ministry as we go out and provide practical help, encouragement, and prayer to people who are going through difficult circumstances. Right now, we're looking for volunteers who would like to come out and be a part of Outreach, whether you've served before or this would be your first time joining us, we'd love to have you come along. If you're interested, head over to our church website, visit our City Relief page, and there you'll find all the information you need about our outreach partnership and the link to sign up specifically for the April 25th Outreach in New York City. We hope you'll consider joining us as we step outside our walls and serve our neighbors in the city.

Bob 58:21

Alright, why don't we do a little sermon sermon review here? Um now we were talking before, since we've been out for uh I think we maybe three weeks, uh, so I don't think we talked about your Romans 8 sermon. And then we had Corey Miller, who kind of got into some cultural issues that tie it tie in with this. Um we had the finale of the Upside Down Glory, the 1 Corinthians 15 um message on the future, and then Jason Thacker talked yesterday about Psalm 8 and human uh dignity. So maybe we can we can kind of just do a popcorn thing of what really stuck out, what are what questions do we want to talk about, and then uh general reflections on the upside down glory series. Because next week, this coming week, we're starting a series on 2 Timothy. This is going to be our 175th series, um, and it's gonna be very profitable. So you want to start? What was your what what what questions should we talk about here? You got a question for me? I I pulled up my notes on your on your sermon here from a few weeks ago.

Dave 59:22

Well, remind me about the first Corinthians 15 um message. You had the shake off the dust, and then you had something about the seed. Right.

Romans 8 Hope And 1 Corinthians 12 Hands

Bob 59:32

So so there was uh uh the three points were to savor the seed. Savor the seed. So that and this was the the uh the idea behind that was that we our bodies, there's gonna be a continuity, you're gonna be recognizable. This body is gonna be redeemed, right, as part of your resurrection body. Then you have to shake off the dust, because you have to get off the you know, the the the the old man, the the the dust from Adam, get that off and be made into the new image of Christ. And then when's that gonna happen? You gotta listen for the trumpet. And in the twinkling of an eye, you will be changed, you'll be transformed, death will be defeated. Um, so those are the three things from that, and we were applying that to uh the hope that even those with disabilities have in the future. Um and then all the way back with the Romans 8 and the groaning, um, you know, you gave you gave some uh interesting uh illustrations about the hospital. I think you used the hospital illustration. You had that um uh you talked about groaning and hope, and how do we reconcile those things? Romans 8 28, of course, is very famous. Um how would how would you how would you uh summarize that message that was a few weeks ago?

Dave 1:00:41

I combined Romans 8 with 1 Corinthians 12 and said, you know, the world is groaning, disability is one of those ways in which we experience that groaning, and then 1 Corinthians 12 is how God actually uh gives us a resource, a solution um through the groaning, and that's through the body. So kind of the catch line of that sermon was Romans 8 hope, 1 Corinthians 12 hands, and that's the way we want to be as a church. And I think there was some challenging parts of that. I think it's hard to see how uh God is gonna bring things all together for the good. We have to trust that in faith. And then the other piece was that inclusion progression. And you know, I got this from Sarah that we we need to move our way along the trajectory towards full on, not just inclusion, but belonging. People really want actually a church where they feel like they belong.

Bob 1:01:39

That would have been a good chart slide to put up here if we thought about that. Yeah, that was a good chart. Yeah. Well, what if what if I ask you a question, then you ask me a question. We'll go back and forth on those two things. Okay. So my my question for this is where where do you think groaning in our world is most acute.

Dave 1:01:56

You know, I think uh particularly suffering of children is really hard for parents to understand, it's hard for the children to understand, it's hard to see that in first world countries, it's hard to see that in in you know third world countries. I think we struggle to um find a way to understand the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God when we see that kind of difficulty in the world. But yet, as we search the scriptures, we realize you know God's got some wonderful examples in the Bible of people who have struggled in these areas. It's it's not a minor theme in the scriptures that people are experiencing physical maladies or disabilities or suffering, and God is teaching us through his word, here's my heart for people who are struggling. And I think one of the slides I showed on that on that sermon was, you know, sometimes disabilities look like this, and it had like the wheelchair or the crutches, or the but then sometimes disabilities are invisible, and we we don't see how people are groaning, how they're suffering. So uh one of the things that we've discovered in the survey is that it's uh it's a lot more broad than perhaps we would have imagined. And I think people who are dealing with a disability or somebody in their family, they kind of feel like they're the only one and and nobody else really can relate or knows or you know cares. But then when you look at the statistics, there's no way that could be true because it's it's all over the place. And so there's a challenge there where we can come alongside of each other and encourage each other and be there for each other as a church body, and I think that's where this series is taking us into the future. Yeah, that's great.

Bob 1:03:41

Yeah, and thank you so much for those of you that filled out the first uh survey as well as the second one. So the second one was much more you know, how did this series change you? And then also how can you be involved? How how can we know what you need, and then if you want to serve, how can we get you plugged in? So we're gonna be following up about that uh over the next month as our as our team meets. Uh so expect to be uh contacted if you uh put some stuff in there. All right, how about you give me a question? Okay, all right.

Dave 1:04:07

So yours was about 1 Corinthians 15. Yes, and that's about the resurrection. So, in the spirit of getting ready for Easter, what is the significance of the resurrection hope for somebody who's living with a disability today? That doesn't look like it's going away, that doesn't look like there's treatment and they're not apart from a miracle, it doesn't look like that they're gonna be getting better. Why is the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 something I want to hold on to?

Resurrection Hope And Future Glory

Bob 1:04:38

And how does that help me? Yeah. Well, to use a Tolkien quote, um, one day everything sad will become untrue. I think that was Sam talking to Frodo. Um, but I I think the two things I wanted to emphasize in terms of the resurrection body here is that that there is an element where you will be recognizable. You're not going to be somebody who I I asked the question, will I recognize my son uh in in the new heavens and the new earth? And I I think yes. Um but at the same time, you will be changed, you will be transformed, there will be healing, you will have a a new body um that is is able to worship Jesus and function and and be with them in heaven. And so whatever when when there's something in this world that's part of the curse of the fall, that will be wiped away. There will be no more tears or mourning or crying or pain. That will be gone. And you will be new and with Jesus and and worshiping him as you were meant to be. That's good. So if Jesus uh can I ask another one? Do you want to go back and forth? Give me give me a f well if it's a germane follow-up question to that one, go ahead. It's kind of a different subject. Okay, then let me come back to my second question uh for you. How do we so you talked about the first Corinthian uh Romans eight um heart, first Corinthians hands. How do we develop a heart for hope? How how do we reconcile this groaning? With this hope, which I guess is kind of similar to what you just asked me.

Dave 1:06:05

I think the tendency, the temptation in the Christian life is to baptize denial and act like it's hope. And it's skipping a few steps. So when we're suffering and when we have disability, or when we encounter somebody who's suffering, the immediate knee-jerk reaction, flinch reaction to go to Romans 8.28 is too much too soon. I think there's a grieving process. Everybody goes through this at their own pace and speed. There's phases of, you know, denial, anger, sadness, bargaining, all that stuff. And then finally we get toward acceptance and we understand how to you know have our hope uh grounded in the scriptures. But I think a person with the compassion of Christ would recognize the gravity and the dis the difficulty of having to deal with this on a regular basis in the real world right now. This is not gonna be easy. And I think we should be careful about jumping right over from bad things happen. Oh, I'm gonna skip grieving and I'm gonna go right to right to like the resurrection or something like that. Right. So it's like one of one of the issues that Paul was dealing with his letters is like people, some people say the resurrection has already happened. No, that Paul's like, no, it gets better. This is not it. So it's okay to grieve. It's just not okay to grieve with no hope. And so I think at the end of um our you know, encouragement is always to bring people back to remind them of the great hope that we have. So there's a balance, yeah, but they're both there. That's great. All right, now what's the question you're gonna ask me? Okay, if Jesus walked into our church with a disability, what do you think he would experience here at Millington? And what might he challenge us about? You know, one of our elders Tuesday night wore a shirt to the meeting that said if Paul were alive, we'd be getting a letter. You know. So um who is that? That was Jan. It was Jan. So if Jesus were to come and he had a disability and he came through the doors, you know, what what would he experience and what would he challenge us about? You know, how do you think he would nudge us in the direction that he would have us go?

Belonging, Service, And Church Culture

Bob 1:08:29

That's a great that's uh you come about yourself or in some That's a great question. Yeah, I uh and then it's it's a worthy question to ask, you know, if Jesus did walk in. Uh because we we talked a lot about um I forget if it was you. I think I think maybe you used this illustration. What will you when you see somebody with a disability, do you lean in or do you do you lean, you know, look away? Um and and I think and I'll just be honest, you know, so I obviously I have a son with disabilities, but but before I I I learned a lot with that, I would have probably had the tendency to kind of look away, to not know what to say. And and even on our on our our initial survey that we took, that was uh one of the things that people voiced is uh yeah, I'd like to do something, but I just I don't know how. What how do how do I do this? How do I I was speaking with um with uh uh uh a guy I'm gonna be doing um going to a Johnny and Friends camp in in July. I'm gonna be the camp pastor for the week. They asked me to do that, and I'm partnering up with another pastor, and he was giving me the overview of how the week goes, and he was saying, I I almost made the first time I went, I almost made this a mistake because there was this um, I think young lady in a wheelchair, and uh, you know, just by looking at her, I would have thought she she had issues developmentally, and so I was gonna lean down and talk with her like she was you know much younger than she was. And and and he the spirit stopped him from doing that because then she spoke and she was very articulate, and he said, I would have I would have looked very foolish. Um so there it there is a tendency to think, am I gonna do something weird or wrong and offend somebody? Um But but I think we have to kind of get over that and just and just make mistakes and and try to minister as much as we can and and treat people like they are, like, you know, minister to them like they were Jesus, like it was Jesus walking into our into our building. And so I I was really impressed and and hopeful by the positive response we got from the series of people wanting to to lean in and not look away, um, even though that's that's some of the flesh we have to get over. Um just the general positivity of people wanting to do that was was very encouraging for me.

Dave 1:10:45

Very good.

Bob 1:10:46

Alright. Uh next question for you. Okay, so you talked about um two wrong attitudes. Uh the first wrong attitude was in terms of getting involved with the church, and I I think you were applying this to disability, but it's it's beyond that. The first wrong attitude is that the church doesn't need me, and the second wrong attitude is I don't need the church. Why do you think these wrong attitudes get into our hearts and how can we overcome them?

Dave 1:11:17

Depending upon our background, culture, the kind of church we grew up in or didn't grow up in, the kind of um affirmation we've received for our gifts in the past, the kind of experiences we've had at other churches in the past, the impressions that we might have of the people that are on stage, or the um presuppositions we might have about who's supposed to do church and who how does church work and how does church run? There's a lot of things that come into play with how I decide about those questions. Um I think sometimes we tend to think about church in the 21st century as it's more of a consumer type of um mentality. We're gonna come in, we're gonna get our needs met, and as long as you guys are doing what you promise, then I'll keep coming like I promise. And if not, the deal's off, right? But that's not really the New Testament model, and I think we need to understand if I'm here, I'm a vital part of the body, and um I've got to find my place to serve because the body actually is missing something if I'm not serving. People with disabilities, um, they might have the wrong thought that I'm not part of the body, or you know, you know, Jesus tells me in the scriptures that I'm I'm a hand, or uh, but here I don't I don't feel like I am a hand, I don't know how to be a hand, or um they may not understand their exact role and how they could function, how they could bless and be a part of the body and serve. So they think, well, the body doesn't need me, the professionals got it, or I don't have anything to offer. So that's a misunderstanding that way. A lot of different reasons could be the cause of that. And then the other misunderstanding of I don't need the church, that's sort of the hyper-individualistic version of Christianity that we've sold to people for a long time. That um salvation is an individual decision, baptism is an individual thing you can do. Um, we we relieve the corporate aspect of Christianity and and we hop around different churches and we don't understand that God is doing his best work in this world in the local church, and that's how we need to invest our the majority of our energy and and time and um gifts in this world that the church is what God is doing, so we should be a part of that. So, you know, there's uh hyper-individualism, I guess, that would cause that misunderstanding. I don't need you, I'm good, got me and God and the beach and the Bible, and there's a bunch of country songs about this. Michaela's country playlist like has a bunch of songs about Sunday service in the sand. You know that one, Tim?

Tim 1:14:01

I've heard a bunch like that.

What’s Next: Team, Plans, And Vision

Dave 1:14:02

Yeah, it's like, you know, here's where I get church when I look up at the stars, that kind of thing. Like, no. I find God in a boat while I'm fishing out in a lake. Yep. Yeah, that's a uh all that stuff. Yeah. So I I try to correct Michaela's theology on a regular basis. When the country museum, although it's quite catchy, the music is uh kind of fun, but bad theology, bad ecclesiology.

Bob 1:14:28

Yeah, I guess so. All right, how about maybe maybe one more question for me?

Dave 1:14:33

Okay, we're done. The series is over, so we don't have to worry about this again, right? We're we've finished, we've already grown up and we've we've learned this lesson, and we don't know no. What do you hope that this is the beginning of here at Millington? What are you hoping this becomes the foundation upon which we build? What do you hope yeah this series has accomplished and how can we continue the momentum going forward, even though we're not gonna continue hearing on about this every Sunday morning anymore? So um are you afraid that this is gonna kind of die down? Are you afraid that this is gonna lose some steam? And then how can we prevent that from happening? How can we continue the uh journey that we're on of becoming a church that values the upside down glory?

New Series Preview: 2 Timothy

Bob 1:15:27

Yeah. That's a great question. Um Yeah, I think there's always a concern that you you put a lot of effort behind something and then you don't do the follow-up. Um and our hope is to make sure we do do the follow-up. Um, but I will also say, and I and I think I said this in the um in the last sermon, uh, you know, I I originally pitched this, I think, to to um our our family ministries team and said, you know, maybe we'll do a disability we're on a Sunday, we'll do one sermon. And somebody said, uh, no, I think it should be a series. And so that's where we developed, we're you know, we need to spend some time on this and really kind of cast vision and give some biblical teaching that people probably have never heard before. Um, and so the idea of spending seven, eight weeks on this series was intentional, and uh it would be um yeah, it would be unfortunate if we did not continue this in in a in a very meaningful way. Because part of it is yes, we have um we have programmatic ideas. Uh you know, we've thrown out some some things about um uh how do we make sure we're we're we're intentionally welcoming people. Uh we threw out that idea of that four-to-one care ministry. Um uh we have things we're putting in place with our kids ministry, all and and our care ministry, all of that stuff is important and good. Um we need to do that. But there needs to be some level of cultural shift where we just say, oh, I need to recognize people that have needs and be okay with people that are different than me and not make them feel weird that they're here. Um, you know, they make weird noises or whatever it is, they look differently. And that's a principle that applies broadly and specifically for those with disabilities. And and I do think if we if we do lean into this, uh God's gonna do something very, very exciting here at Millington. I think he already is. Um so our disability leadership team is gonna meet in a couple weeks. We're gonna review our survey, we're gonna start making recommendations, we're gonna be doing more research. Uh, a few folks are going to the disability in the church conference next month. They're gonna be bringing back learnings, and we're gonna be slowly implementing stuff over the course of time uh here at the church. Uh, you know, and it'll be it'll be start with low-hanging fruit, um, but then hopefully it'll build up to things like uh maybe even a night to shine outreach event. You know, Tim and I have talked about that. Um that's not probably something tomorrow, uh, but respite events are very important things for people that feel overwhelmed. Um so we kind of have a tiered plan. But my encouragement to to everybody who's listening is just to just to start taking stock of your heart and noticing people that are around you. And we're gonna leave up some of those um uh uh uh taglines from the series out in the lobby. Uh disability ministry is not an individual burden, it's a corporate responsibility that we all have a part to play in this. Um Jesus sees the overlooked and calls and sends us to do the same, you know, those things. Um God God sent the weak to shame the strong. And so uh we may be stronger than other people, but God uses us all and we're all part of the body of Christ. Uh so uh I loved your theme in that Romans 8 message. May we have uh Romans 8 heart and 1 Corinthians 12 hands. May we live that out. And um, yeah, I do think that's gonna be a very cool thing to watch. Would you add anything as a button hook? Those were excellent. I think we'll leave it there. Yeah. Well that oh, go ahead, Tim.

Tim 1:18:58

No, I thought the series was great. I was gonna say you must have someone really smart on staff to uh recommend the uh the sermon series. No, um I it was really cool seeing the feedback that you guys got. Um, and you know, just really cool um sermon series. So thank you both. All right.

Bob 1:19:18

We didn't get to talk about Jason Thacker's uh underground and message, but on the behind the pulpit uh email that's going on a Wednesday, we're gonna link to the full underground. I encourage you to watch that, as well as we're linking a podcast that I did with him uh I think a year and a half ago on AI, because he's written a lot of stuff on that. So check out both those uh things, uh, those will be very beneficial to you. And this coming Sunday, we're starting a new sermon series. Dave's kicking it off. Why don't you give us a quick preview?

Theology Sprint: Three Pillars Of Philosophy

Dave 1:19:47

The last letter that Paul wrote was 2 Timothy. He wrote that for a dungeon for in a dungeon. He wrote that um as his final farewell to not only Timothy, but to the church. And we're gonna be studying this letter um in the next few months because it's very much about passing the torch, it's about passing the mantle, it's about passing the baton, it's about how do we hand off the faith to the next generation? And here as we're at this uh I want to say moment, we're at this moment in the life of our church, it's 175 years in.

Bob 1:20:23

Civilizational moment.

Dave 1:20:24

We are so how can we think about how can we uh be intergenerational in our thinking and make sure we're passing on our gospel legacy to the generation that's gonna come after us? And we want to spend some time thinking very broadly about that. What are we doing to make sure that this outpost of the kingdom is best set up for the people that are coming that we don't know yet, the people that are gonna be part of this church and leading this church that are not even maybe here yet. And so this is gonna be a great series. It's gonna challenge us to think about not only uh the legacy we leave as a church, but we'll also be thinking about personally where I'm investing my life and the kind of legacy that I'm leaving in my life. I think you'll be blessed by this. We're gonna be kicking it off Sunday morning, and uh 2 Timothy is gonna be a great study. So make sure you're here. Don't miss it. Uh, you won't want to miss out on the first week of the series. That's great.

Bob 1:21:23

All right, so we got a theology sprint question to cap us off today.

Tim 1:21:26

We do emphasis on sprint. So I've I've heard a term recently uh called the three pillars of philosophy. And I've never heard this before until today. So can any of you explain to me what that is?

Closing And Sign-Off

Bob 1:21:41

Yeah, in philosophical study, if you are so inclined towards that, and I was talking with somebody about this on Sunday. Um, there's three pillars. The first one is metaphysics, the second one is epistemology, and the third one is ethics. So I thought about this because Jason Thacker is an ethicist and he was here this weekend, but metaph metaphysics have to deal with the nature of the universe and reality. Epistemology has to deal with knowledge and how you know things, and then ethics has to do with right living and how you go about and live in the world. And so those things I think very much play together in developing a Christian worldview, um, you know, how how you know God and what the nature of the universe is and his creation, and then how you live rightly in the world. So if you want to dive more into philosophy, those are the three pillars. Check them out. Incredible.

Tim 1:22:32

That was our first ever Unbelievable philosophy sprint.

Dave 1:22:39

I remember philosophy 101 class. We also there was a fourth category for our class that they said uh aesthetics was a very good thing. Oh, I can see the realm like beauty. What is the beautiful thing?

Bob 1:22:52

Yeah, I think I think John John Frame gives those three in his uh uh history of philosophy of the Western World, but I can see where aesthetics plays in there too. The good, the true, and the beautiful. Far be it from me to disagree from John with John Frame. John Frame, he's he's a big fan of the show. Yeah. I'm sure he is. Thank you guys for watching today. We'll be back next week and uh have a great week. It's gonna be a warm one. Like the tropics are flowing in, the snow is melting, the water's going, we're getting Easter.

Dave 1:23:20

Get the vitamin D. Narnia has come back. Get a walk in.