Replacement Theology?

This week on Behind the Pulpit, the pastors talk through a few major current issues, including the ongoing conflict involving Iran, the question of replacement theology, the church’s relationship to Israel, and a recent California case dealing with parental rights and school policies around gender identity. The episode also touches on anti-Semitism, public policy in New Jersey, and a quick update from the Paralympic sled hockey world.

The sermon recap focuses on the opening of the new 2 Timothy series, especially Paul’s final charge to guard the gospel, pass the faith to the next generation, and think intentionally about the future of the church. The conversation spends time on the significance of MBC’s 175th year, the image of the three-chair church, and what it means to prepare now for the people who are not here yet.

The Weekly Warm-Up centers on Ephesians 4:22, Book War continues, and the Theology Sprint closes with a question about eating and sleeping in heaven.

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Annual Business Meeting
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Discussing End Times with Craig Blomberg & Darrell Bock | The Underground Sessions Podcast S4E4
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:46 Weekly Warmup
11:17 In The News
28:39 The Great Book War
38:00 Audience Questions
57:37 Sermon Recap
1:21:23 Theology Sprint

Music
"Ventura"
Morgan Taylor
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Transcript

Tim 0:00

And now a very important message from the most honourable, the most learned, and unquestionably the most sharp-witted guardian of the law, Her Honor, Judge Millie Linchtonian.

Millie Ningetonian 0:12

Well, hello, churchgoers. How lovely to see you outside of a Sunday morning. Might I remind you of the upcoming highlight event of the season? Wednesday, March 18th, 7 p.m., there will be our annual church business meeting. Please, I don't want to be forced to be melancholy. Please be there. You must. See you there. Ta-ta.

Bob 0:44

Well, hey everyone. Welcome to Behind the Pulpit for uh March the 16th, 2026. Tomorrow's St. Patrick's Day, isn't it? Isn't that the 17th?

Tim 0:57

It sure is. It's probably St. Patrick's Day when you potentially might be listening to this.

Bob 1:01

Well, okay, so you might be listening to it tomorrow or maybe the day after, depending on when you will consume this content. But I wore my green, my green coat today in honor of St. Patrick's Day. I see you picked some green books over there. Was that was that intentional or did that just happen? You know, let's get going on the corned beef and cabbage. All right. Well, we're glad you're joining us today for uh Behind the Pulpit. Um we are gonna be talking a little bit about the sermon from yesterday. We started a new sermon series, we got some interesting news stories to cover, and uh we're gonna be doing a theology sprint. But before we get there, how about we do a little warm-up here, Tim? I know you've been introducing this new segment thinking that we're tired, our muscles are achy. It's Monday.

Tim 1:45

You know, we film these on Mondays, you know. I'm thinking after church on Sunday, Tim Cam is back. After church on Sunday, you take a nap. You know, you wake up back to church on back to work on Monday. We need to warm up a little bit. So let me pull up this warm-up.

Dave 1:59

Yesterday I did take a nap, but the children's ministry had an appreciation lunch and there was a gigantic cookie as part of the dessert.

Tim 2:06

Did you eat the cookie?

Dave 2:07

I did. Oh, wow.

Tim 2:09

The whole cookie? The whole thing. Did you get one of the ones with the it looked like the Hershey bar in it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Dave 2:15

Chunks of chocolate in there.

Tim 2:16

I I went way overboard with that cookie. My uh my wife got one of those cookies and it looks very good. Um here's today. It'll make you fall asleep. Like an like an insomnia cookie, maybe. Um here is our weekly warm up for today. Uh it is episode four, uh, season four, episode twenty two. So our passage today, our verse today comes from Ephesians chapter four, verse twenty two, which says to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life, and is corrupt through deceitful desire. So, as a warm up, Pastor Bob, Pastor Dave, take us through this verse.

Dave 2:49

What Bible translation are you using?

Tim 2:51

I use the English Standard Version, also known as the version that Jesus used himself. He was partial to the ESV.

Bob 2:58

The red letters are much closer to accurate in the ESV.

Dave 3:02

Yes. I don't think it is. So that particular translation, I think, is unfortunate. So put it up again. Oh no. It's been a while since I looked at a few years. He's gonna be dropping it. Watch out, folks. See the footnote A. I wonder what that says in the ESF footnote, because the self there is not helpful. It's it's a very individualistic choice of translation.

Tim 3:22

That footnote says Greek man, also verse 24.

Dave 3:25

Exactly. So really the term is humanity. So if you think about Ephesians, in chapter two, he casts this vision for a new humanity that has Jew and Gentile together functioning as one, there's one blood, there's one spirit, and the dividing wall is broken down, there's a new humanity. That doesn't like stop. So he continues in chapter four and says, put on the new humanity. Uh, new self is a very individualistic way to think about that. Whereas I think uh a corporate way of viewing chapter four is the best way to interpret that passage. There is uh no way to be a Christian like with yourself by yourself. The only way you can be a Christian is when you're with us. And when you're with us, Paul says, put on the new humanity. And there's certain characteristics that he's gonna describe there in chapter four that will uh exhibit new humanity types of traits, like speaking the truth in love, uh, not grieving the Holy Spirit, not letting your anger get the best of you, uh, you know, putting putting away all kinds of slander and wrath, and those wonderful, uh forgiving, those wonderful characteristics are part of the new humanity in contrast with the old humanity, which is in Adam, and the kind of uh characteristics that we would exhibit as the old uh human race. So I I I think it's an okay way to think about put off, put on. It's like a garment, right? Like it's like this coat Bob has here. The imagery there is like take this off. This is the old humanity coat. You used to be on this team, like you used to have a different jersey, like you used to used to be on a then you got traded, and now you got a different jersey. And then the new jersey is the new humanity jersey, and this is how we do things on the new team. And so Paul is saying, put off, put on. There's a new way that you're gonna be living your life now. And Ephesians 4 is the whole chapter is really describing that whole new life.

Bob 5:17

So Yeah, so he he leads into it at the end of the chapter. We did a series on Ephesians a number of years ago, and I think you preached this passage.

Dave 5:24

I did. Yeah, it's a great passage. Yeah, be imitators of God, therefore his dearly beloved children, and live a life of love. Well, that's chapter five, isn't it? So there's a terrible chapter break right between chapter four and chapter five. So he continues the thought all the way chapter four, and then that's the conclusion, which is imitate Christ. That that's exactly who you're supposed to be uh putting on, putting on Christ in that way. Because who does that? Well, someone I know. Uh Jesus is our ultimate model for the new humanity.

Bob 5:56

That's right, because after that he starts to talk about lust and things of that nature, the deeds of the flesh.

Dave 6:03

Yeah.

Bob 6:04

So good.

Dave 6:05

Rooted is the name of the series. If you want to actually listen to an Ephesians series, Tim has posted that on our YouTube channel. And uh it is available. If you're interested in a deep dive in Ephesians, it's there.

Tim 6:17

So this is the first weekly warm-up where Pastor David has expressed grievances with the ESV and actually the whole Bible itself. Well, it it is or at least the book of Ephesians.

Bob 6:30

Maybe we should have we should I feel like there should be a chart for that.

Dave 6:33

ESV is fine. It's a perfectly reputable translation. Um there is no perfect English translation. The Bible is not written in English, so you have to figure out you know what's the best way to convey these things, even you know, cross-culturally. No, no, no shade on the ESV. It's all good. Except on Ephesians 4 22. Yeah, it's just a preference. Alright.

Bob 6:58

I I got the blood flowing.

Dave 7:01

What more trouble could I get into?

Tim 7:03

Get ready because one of our favorite family events of the year is back. The hair raising egg party is happening Saturday, March 28th from 10 a.m. to 12 p.m., and it's happening rain or shine. This is a morning built for families and kids of all ages with egg and bunny themed games, crafts, a petting zoo, and of course, plenty of candy and prizes. And for families with special needs, we're offering VIP access starting at 9 30 a.m. to help create a more comfortable and enjoyable experience. And that's not all. We'll have a big sale supporting our teens heading on a mission trip to Tennessee this summer, and we'll be collecting gently used spring and summer clothing for our ministry partner, Street Hope Alive. You can also be part of making this event happen. We're currently looking for volunteers and collecting individually wrapped candy donations. You can drop off those donations in the foyer on Sunday or in the church office during the week and sign up to volunteer online. And don't forget, if you register by March 27th, you'll be entered into a raffle for prizes. So marker calendars Saturday, March 28th from 10 a.m. to 12 with a special VIP access at 9 30. It's gonna be a fun-filled morning for the whole family, and we'd love for you to be a part of it.

Bob 8:09

Well, let's see how are we ready to go for the uh for the news segment? Let's go there and see what happens. We'll see how many news we get. All right, let's move on to in the news. Alright, so uh a couple things in the news that we wanna we we were talking before, we'd like to share with you uh two stories. The first one is a continuation from what we covered last week. Um we're still at war with Iran, I think. We're still bombing them and attacking, and they're attacking us back. And we got a question this week about that. Uh, what was that question, Pastor Dave?

Dave 8:43

Yeah, the congregation member uh had just received a copy of a regular publication named Decision Magazine. And this particular month in March, the entire magazine was pretty much dedicated to replacement theology. There were multiple articles in this particular issue about replacement theology. Has the church replaced Israel? And they wanted to know, you know, what are our thoughts on this and how how can we think biblically and uh think uh about current events regarding this issue? So, for those of you who may not be familiar with the term, um replacement theology is the idea that the church in the New Testament has totally replaced the nation of Israel and all of the promises that were made to Israel in the Old Testament. It's sometimes known as supersessionism, or there are some other ways to express the same concept. Um, and you'll see some people in the magazine um who hold to a more classical dispensational framework. They they they are people like uh Gary Hamrick did an article in this particular issue. There was an article by um uh Ro Rosenthal, Joel Joel Joel Rosenberg? Is that his name? Joel, I'm forgetting the name now. The guy who uh that sounds about right. Yeah. Uh I think it's Joel Rosenberg. So they're taking the position that replacement theology is a problem, and they're giving exegetical arguments against that particular view. So the characteristic uh critique of this is that this is an evil theology, and um, I would like to say that there are certain problems we should address that the replacement theologians perhaps uh uh uh bring up to the surface, but I don't think they are directly related to replacement theology. And that is one of the problems that we're facing right now in our world is anti-Semitism. There's been a rise in anti-Semitism. Just last week there was a jihadist attack um in a synagogue. There have been uh increasing levels of uh an anti-Jewish segment, not just in America, some of our major cities, but across the world. Particularly, I think since October 7th, this is this has been something that's been an issue that's been on the on the rise, uh, especially with the younger generation, millennials and Gen Z. So uh is replacement theology responsible for the rise in anti-Semitism? That's what some people are saying. I think that's probably uh more about a correlation rather than a causation. I don't necessarily think there has to be any anti-Semitic, uh, racist or any kind of discrimination um perspectives, that discriminatory perspectives coming out of someone who holds this particular theology. So just to clarify, what replacement theology is being accused of is that um all of the the promises that God has made to the Jewish people have been replaced, and the Gentiles have now um completely taken over the uh as God's chosen people, and they reject any separate plan for for for Israel as a nation. So what you have to do to understand this is you have to split off the political national Israel that just uh was rebirthed as a nation in 1948 from ethnic Israel, which is the fact that there are Jewish people that have been alive since the times of the New Testament that may or may not be associated with the political nation of Israel in the Middle East right now. So those are I think it's important to separate those two issues. Um I will say one of the commentaries they had us purchase and read in seminary was the international uh critical commentary uh that was written by Cranfield and um his two-volume work on Romans, and part of what was striking to me in this commentary was he apologizes for replacement theology in here. So on page 448 of his uh commentary, where he begins the section on Romans 9 through 11, which talks a lot about the promises to Israel, he specifically says this the assumption that the church has simply replaced Israel as the people of God is extremely common. And he's citing here a couple commentators. I'm not totally sure, but he says, Thus Barrett, for example, uh writes This fact reminds us that behind Paul's discussion there lies the historical background formed by the ministry of Jesus, his rejection and crucifixion by Israel. But such passages as 1 Thessalonians 2 and Acts 2 and Acts 4 10 certainly do not give those of us who are Gentiles any right to ignore the decisive part played by the Romans in the crucifixion of Jesus, which thereby disavowed its own place in God's plan. He's saying that Israel disavowed its own place in God's plan, and the election of a new Israel in Christ to take place of the old. And here's what Cranfield says, which is actually a very humble part of his commentary. Take a look at this. He says, I confess with shame to having also myself used in print on more than one occasion this language of the replacement of Israel by the church. So Cranfield actually formally apologizes in his commentary for taking that position. Now he doesn't go so far as to take the dispensational position, which says there's a complete future for political Israel and all of the land promises and the temple promises and all the kinds of things that you might hear in classical dispensationalism. But he does say, as you get to chapter 11 in his commentary, that it looks like at the end of this age there will be a great conversion of many, many Jewish people that have been promised in Romans chapter 11. So a lot of people who are um not dispensational, but who are more covenant uh in their theology or progressive covenantal, they would say you have to understand that Jewish person gets into the people of God the same way that a Gentile gets into the people of God today by faith in the Messiah, in Christ. And it's unfair, I think, to say that they believe that the church has replaced Israel. Stephen Wellum, who I've gotten to know a lot recently, would say it's actually Christ. It's Christ that fulfills, and he wouldn't use the word replaced. He's he would say Christ fulfills the mission of Israel, and then all of us, including the Jews and the Gentiles, are only grafted in to Christ, and only through Christ alone do we obtain the promises that were made to Israel. But he would include both Jews and Gentiles uh in those promises. Uh, there's a lot of common biblical passages used in this, Romans 9 through 11. Notice um in Romans 9 through 11, there's an image of an olive tree, and there's not like two trees. There's not like a Jew tree and a gentile tree, there's one tree, and this is an image that's communicating there's one people of God, and that uh Gentiles, according to the book of Galatians, are considered to be Abraham's offspring and heirs according to the promise. So there's a unity between Jew and Gentile that the New Testament does talk about, which is more thinking in terms of continuity between the Old Testament and New Testament, as opposed to some theologies have more discontinuity. Uh, dispensationalism would take issue with that. I imagine the Decision Magazine this month takes issue with that, and they see a um a real distinction. They see two separate peoples, the church and Israel. Israel's not the church, the church is not Israel, and those um people who would disagree with that would say that that argument is not supported by many New Testament texts. So uh I will say for those who are disparaging what they're calling replacement uh theology, many people who hold this view would never refer to themselves as replacement theologians. That's more of a derogatory term that um they would never own themselves, they would consider themselves to be like more speak in terms of fulfillment, um, or you know, the the telos or the end of the purpose of Israel. And it's it's a little bit of a pejorative term to say, oh, they just believe in replacement theology. And that was actually the dominant view throughout church history. So you see some people, Bob, who say, oh, the belief in replacement theology is evil. It's you know, it's it's it's totally heresy. You gotta say, a many, many people throughout church history were evil and heretics to hold that position. I I don't know that you would want to go that far. I think we're not in tier one here. I I think we're in tier two. We might even be in tier three in terms of how do we understand certain passages about eschatological promises. So calling someone evil, calling someone a heretic, I think is unnecessarily inflammatory about this.

Bob 17:40

I think maybe the the modern example would be the friendship between John MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. So John MacArthur, I think he referred to himself as a leaky dispensationalist, but would have been uh on the two people's track uh in this uh conversation. And then R. C. Sproul would have been considered a very covenantal supposed replacement theology. Right.

Dave 18:04

Um neither one of them were calling each other evil and making it spirited dis dis disagreements, but right. Yeah. So this is a theological conversation. There's an entirely different conversation that needs to happen geopolitically. So Israel in the Middle East, whether or not there's actual political promises made to uh Israel in that fashion is kind of a different set of uh discussion points than this theology conversation. We can also say, as the United States, they're a democratic ally in the Middle East, and it's in our best interest to continue to support them and so forth, and still not believe that there's a future for uh political Israel in the eschatological prophecies of the New Testament. So there's a separate conversation between geopolitical Israel and eschatology that I think it's important to break apart. Although many of our friends uh hold to a dispensational theology, many of my beloved professors would really feel strongly about that. We had Dr. Bach on this show, and I think he and Blomberg had a little bit of a different understanding about the future for Israel. It did. And uh it's it's my understanding that they were very amicable about that and they were friendly toward each other and encouraging others to be friendly towards people who may have a different perspective on that as well.

Bob 19:25

Yeah. Maybe we can link that podcast in the uh show notes here, Tim, uh, to go and see how that conversation went. Oh yes. So this, of course, is coming up in this article because of the current Iran-Israel US conflict. Um It is. So that how people there's a lot of stats that people are turning against Israel today. And that's why it was that's why it was mentioned.

Dave 19:49

Right. And and regardless of even if you do think there's a a national future for Israel and your classical dispensational, that should not mean to you that the current political Israel is above critique or they they cannot be in any way, shape, or form at fault. You should still be able to say, okay, we agree with this, we don't agree with that, and um, you know, they're accountable to God just like every other nation is accountable to God as well.

Bob 20:15

So well, good. Well, that's uh I think that's a helpful overview of what's going on there. Thank you uh for asking that question. Uh second news story, if you're okay to was there more to say about that? Okay. Second news story that we wanted to cover is um a recent Supreme Court case coming out of California about parental rights. And here's here's the background. So uh March 2nd, 2026, the U.S. Supreme Court issued an order in the case Miribelli versus Bonta, which temporarily blocked California from enforcing policies that barred schools from notifying parents when a student identifies as transgender or socially transitions at school. Alright, so what that's that was the issue. What did the the California case do? So in the court, it was a 6-3 emergency order, so it's not a final decision, but it let a federal trial judge's injunction take effect again, because the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had had removed part of that, and it blocked California from enforcing the statewide guidance that generally prohibited teachers from informing parents of a student's sexual orientation or gender identity without the student's consent. The majority said these policies likely viol violate parental rights, and this is important, this is what they said, violates parent parental rights to, and I quote, to direct the upbringing and education of their children and emphasize that gender dysphoria and related issues are central to a child's mental health, so parents have a constitutional interest in being informed. So what was happening was uh students were going in, they were confiding in teachers and other administrators, and they may have been Wanting to be called a different name or appear differently at school, and the parents had no idea. So the court grounded its reasoning in both the free exercise clause, the religious for the parent religious for religious parents, and the substantive due process parental rights under the Fourteenth Amendment, stressing that the state cannot shut parents, and I quote, out of participation in decisions regarding their children's mental health. So we'll see if this makes it all the way to actually having a a final, final ruling, but this was um a decision, an emergency decision that that uh basically overturned a temporary injunction or a injunction meaning to stop from the Court of Appeals. Now, what are the what are the issues that we need to think about um in this uh in this case? Uh I think theologically the most obvious one is uh just our our view of anthropology, our view of the doctrine of man. So when God says in Genesis one that he's made man uh in his image male, or humankind in his image male and female, uh we we believe that there is a a gender binary.

Dave 23:09

And also What about the accusation that that's Old Testament, that's the book of Genesis? Jesus never talked about that because he didn't care about that.

Bob 23:17

Oh, well that's that's a good question. Although except Jesus did reaffirm that in Matthew nineteen when he was talking about no fault divorce and affirmed uh uh marriage between a man and a woman there using that argument from Genesis. So reiterating the gender binary as well. Right. So Jesus did speak to it um in Matthew nineteen. Um I think the the other issue uh or one of the other issues is that uh uh family itself is the building block of society. So mo most theologians, um, and maybe Abraham Kuiper uh here was very famous in talking about something called sphere sovereignty, and he talked about these three different spheres. You had the family, you had uh the church, and you had the state. Uh-huh. But if you follow the storyline of the Bible in Genesis, God, even when he chooses a people, he chooses first a family that then progresses into a nation. And so family is the building block of society. If you don't have strong families, if you don't understand the difference of male and female, um, then you're gonna ultimately have societal breakdown without without strong families. And I think that's been uh corroborated throughout the history of the world. There was one other point that I'm forgetting here that we'd w written down. What was it?

Dave 24:36

A couple weeks ago, Corey Miller was here and this one was speaking about this particular issue with regards to you're a parent or a grandparent and your child comes home, and I they actually tell you that they're identifying as a different gender or want to use different pronouns or different name, and then the parents or the administrators or the school counselors or those who are adults in the child's life basically tell you that to disagree with your child is to put them at risk in terms of suicidal ideation. So the the common phrase is, you know, would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son? And so they put that uh on the parents or the grandparents by saying, if you were to disagree with this, this is a life or death issue. And that's a tremendous weight that they're putting on parents to just uh accept a child's decision at such such a young age. The the pushback, I think, from uh the the conservative side here would be uh if there is suicidal ideation, that may not be causation. That could just be a correlation. If they're dealing with some confusion around their identity and their gender, there's a chance that they could be dealing with some mental health issues already, and that's what's contributing to things like suicidal ideation as well. And then the other thing that we don't always talk about, but I think has recently um uh uh gained some more data to support it, is that uh there was a social contagion element of this. There was a I think you used the phrase looping effect that you saw spikes in our culture and it kind of peaked right around 2020, 2021, and then it started going down. And if this was truly just a you know a physical matter, a biological matter, and it had nothing to do with sociology, then I don't see it's I don't think you would see those kind of swings in terms of people identifying this way. And so um I think it's important to recognize that there is a social element of this, particularly it was pronounced amongst young women, uh, not to say young men were not affected, but teenage girls were very affected by the social contagion element of that, and that's something to consider as well. But in terms of parents' rights, um you know, I I was happy to see, at least the case is not settled, but I was happy to see there was a respect there for the parents and our role in our children's lives. But I was also thinking about something else. If you're the school and it's your official school policy that you're not allowed to inform parents, then aren't you essentially by policy forcing your teachers to deceive? Aren't isn't your policy uh to tell the principal, the counselor, the teacher that they must intentionally deceive the parents and they're not allowed uh to reveal the truth to the parents? And how could you force someone uh to deceive against their conscience in that way? I think that's an issue to consider as well.

Bob 27:42

Yeah, very true. And um so the the language about the um the looping effect, I think it was Abigail Schreier wrote a book called uh Irreversible Damage, and she used the term social contagion and then uh Mark Yarhouse wrote a book on uh I think it was called Emerging Gender Identities, where he he interacted with that and then he he used the term looping effect that you're kinda you have uh an idea that gets brought in by somebody and then it keeps looping back and forth. There's a feedback loop that keeps pushing people in a certain direction. Um so so there is a social aspect to it. The other thing I would say about uh parental rights, uh just to bring it a little bit closer to home, there are several bills currently on the docket in the New Jersey um assembly, I think, uh dealing with homeschool uh parents and kids uh that I think will be impacted by this uh this ruling. So a few a few of those uh I think there's four right now, and uh each time one moves into committee, there's a lot of protesting and a lot of feedback, and so it had they haven't made their way to the floor. Um but one of them uh would would force you to to to register your kids, like essentially creating a homeschool registry. Another one would force you to bring your kid to a uh guidance counselor for a yearly wellness check, you know, whatever whatever that means. Um and uh you know there there's other ones that force you to to to uh to adhere to state standards and the curriculum. Uh of course there's the reason people are not putting their kids in public school is because of uh issues with curriculum that's come down from the state. So um I think this this case will probably, if if those go forward, intersect here uh in the garden state. Uh so keep your eye on those. I encourage you to go check that out and uh write your legislature if you feel so so moved. Um but but we do definitely would affirm that God has given parents to care for their kids and family is the building block of uh society, biblically speaking. Uh Andrew Walker calls these creation order issues you know, as it relates to marriage, sexuality, and all the issues uh intersecting with those. Do you add anything else to that?

Tim 29:54

That's good. All right. I got uh I got a quick news story. It relates to our previous sermon series a bit. The uh the US Paralympic sled hockey team won their fifth straight Olympic gold medal on Sunday against Canada. So that was pretty cool. And also historically, and for this was the first time in the history of the Olympics that a country has walked away with men's, women's, and paralympic gold in ice hockey. So pretty cool. Three, the triple crown. They beat Canada in all three games. All three colors.

Dave 30:25

It was all three Canada? Yeah, yeah. Wow. That's incredible. That's a cool news story. Thank you, Tim. By the way, speaking of sports, Tim, did you fill out your bracket?

Tim 30:34

No. I uh are you gonna? Yeah, I mean, I I I know nothing about college basketball this year, but I'll still fill it out. Well, last year you had a band of brothers thing.

Dave 30:42

Yeah, I was thinking about that today. We'll we'll we'll we'll get it going. I was looking at um Lehigh. They're in the wildcard section on Wednesday night, so I'll have to tell Darren. Lehigh's got a chance. They're like number 16 or something.

Bob 30:54

Darren will get very excited. I wore my Lafayette up and down.

Dave 30:57

There's a neck today.

Tim 30:58

Are you a Lafayette guy? My dad is a so funny story. Uh my dad went to That's the one at Easton, right?

Bob 31:03

Right over the river. Okay.

Tim 31:04

Uh my dad did undergrad at Lafayette and he did graduate school at Lehigh. Whoa. Well, that's that's just like blowing my mind. He but he he associates. He's got the double L, huh? He associates with Lafayette. He's he's he's um he's he'll tell people it's like it was different. I was student teaching, I was I was doing graduate. Like, I'm a Lafayette guy.

Bob 31:23

So he identifies as a Lafayette. He's a leopard.

Dave 31:25

We got several Lehigh people. Darren, Bill, Mark, Ed, Dr. Ed. There's a lot of people from Lehigh. Lehigh is well thought of around well represented.

Tim 31:36

We want to invite our seniors to a special time of fellowship coming up this week. Our senior luncheon will take place this Friday, March 20th from 12 to 2 p.m. This month's program is titled Remember the Ladies: A Woman's Role During the Revolutionary War, offering a meaningful and engaging look at history together. Bring a favorite salad, casserole, dessert, or bread to share, and enjoy a great afternoon of food, fellowship, and encouragement. Every senior is welcome, whether or not you received a reminder. So we hope to see you there this Friday from 12 to 2 p.m.

Bob 32:06

All right. Well, that's uh what's going on in the news. Let's move on to the next segment. Let's talk about books. We got a war going on in the Middle East, and we have a war going on right here at the table. We'll leave it up to you to figure out which war is more important. Indeed. Tim, give us an update on this war. Give us the tactical uh tactical situation on the ground.

Tim 32:27

So tacally, um, Pastor Bob has proved not to be doing so great. Um the score currently is is six to ten in in favor of Pastor Dave. It was a tight race this past week, but um, once again, Pastor Dave uh did indeed prevail. Um was it really a tight race? It was. It was one vote off, uh one vote, nine responses. Uh Pastor Dave.

Bob 32:55

I think this just proves that I can't win because I gave the book recommendation from the guy who preached that week and he still couldn't win.

Tim 33:03

Pastor Dave tactically is doing something doing something well. So the current score is six to eleven. Now let me ask you uh how many weeks are left in the current sermon series? Ten. Ten weeks. All right. So the deficit is five. Uh so aver every every Pastor Bob, you still there's still time. There's still time to use.

Bob 33:22

I have to win. Um I had to go eight out of ten, something like that.

Tim 33:28

Uh I think you have to win.

Bob 33:30

If it's baseball, you never know. You can go on a hot streak.

Tim 33:32

I think if Pastor Dave wins the next, I want to say two, he would he would clinch the title. All right.

Bob 33:37

Well, then maybe maybe it's just not there's not even a point in continuing.

Tim 33:40

No, next three, next three. So no, but Pastor Bob, there is there is a point. There is, there is, you must keep attempting. And we're gonna let you begin that attempt right now. There's such a thing as a silver trophy, man. It's just you know, it's all right. Second place in a competition.

Bob 33:56

Well, I got a silver silver book for recommendation this week, and uh, I think it goes along well with our sermon series. We actually heard this gentleman speak at a church leaders' conference uh two weeks ago, or last was it last week? Uh Jared C. Wilson wrote a book called Lest We Drift. We should have got a selfie. We should have. Um so he teaches at the seminary that I'm going to. I'm hoping to take a class with him next year. Uh Five Departure Dangers from the One True Gospel. And this book is all about how do we remain faithful to the gospel that was entrusted to us. What is the gospel? How do we keep it at the center of everything that we do? Um, and how do we uh stop from unknowingly drifting off in one way, shape, or form? So some of the chapters he covers talks a little bit about his personal story at the beginning, and then um he he talks about the the different the current landscape, and then he talks about different ways that we can drift. So some of the things are victimhood, dryness, superficiality, pragmatism, a new legalism. Um, and he closes off by uh alerting us just not to drift, to pay attention, and grounds it in the book of Hebrews, chapter two. So um good book, very accessible. I would encourage you to pick it up and uh let it let yourself feast upon it. Have you recommended that before? I may have, but I'm bringing it back up because I'm sure people didn't vote for it. But I I'm begging you. I I should do I actually think that I I thought it went well good with your uh with your sermon and the two first two sermons in the series, anyway. So there you go.

Tim 35:34

We should do always a danger drifting, man. We should do an exercise where Pastor Bob recommends like a really like theologically rich book, and Pastor Dave recommends like a new atheism book. Okay. And see who wins.

Dave 35:48

All right. Are we good? Yeah, so I'm good. I got a special treat this weekend. I started reading Thursday night and I finished it up Saturday night. Stephen Presley is a guy that uh has his uh PhD and um he teaches at Southern and um he wrote a book called Cultural Sanctification. It was published in 2024. I actually graduated DTS with Stephen, and he is a brilliant uh early church scholar, uh, specifically Irenaeus, amongst other church fathers. The book is about the early church, but it's also about today. And he starts out with the introduction talking about where is our culture right now, you know, how have we gotten where we've gotten and what's the right strategy. And he basically says, for the most part, when you read the people who are talking about cultural engagement, there's there's two different avenues you can go. You can either go the strategy of isolation or the strategy of confrontation. And he says there's some merit in both of those strategies, but the way if you want to know how the early church actually did it, okay, so like we've been here before. The church has been here before. We we were part of a completely pagan empire, and Christians were hated. Uh we were vehemently hated. We we thought we we were despised, we were being killed, uh, we were being accused of not being good for society, we were being accused of uh just you know basically ruining the Roman culture. And within 300 years, the early church had spread like crazy and completely sanctified the entire Roman Empire to the point where most of the Roman Empire was was Christian. In fact, there were Christians um dominating the Roman Empire by the by the late 200s. So he talks about like, well, how'd they do it? Okay, what like what'd they do? What was their strategy? Because that's a really good question, right? Because they did do things, and um, there's a lot of things they did, but he kind of narrows it down to these particular five things. He talks about identity formation and catechesis and baptism and what they were doing for instruction. Number one, number two, citizenship, how did they view their citizenship in heaven? And how did they view their dual citizenship with earth? Number three, intellectual life, how were they engaging the uh scholarship of their day? Number four, public life, what were they doing to show works of love, mercy, and justice? And finally, number five, hope. How did they show a special kind of hope that this world knew nothing about? And he has well documented primary sources, early church father quotes, uh, martyr stories, fascinating stories. The beginning of each chapter is some kind of like tearjerker, um, wonderful, like real story about what like really happened. Like one of the chapters begins with this the whole martyr story of uh Polycarp. Like, what exactly did he did happen? He went to the stadium and they're like, Away with the atheist. And Polycarp looks back at the crowd and goes, Away with the atheist, and it tells that whole story about how he gave his life. Each chapter begins with something like that, and it's fascinating. He's a very good writer. I did not know what what a wonderful scholar he was, but he he definitely knows his stuff about the early church, and it's not technical, it's it's totally accessible. Cultural sanctification. It's an incredible book. I'm so glad I read it. I need to send him an email and say thank you. Um, but fantastic read. If you're interested in that and you want to know what we should do in our culture, like this is a pretty pretty good strategy.

Bob 39:41

Yeah. Did I did I see that Stephen A. Smith recommended that on the back?

Dave 39:45

Or Stephen Smith from the University of San Diego. I don't know if he knows Stephen A. Smith. I Incredible!

Bob 39:52

This is an incredible book right here. You gotta read it. This book. Let me tell you right now.

Dave 39:58

Different Stephen Smith, I think. So, there we go. We recommend you decide. I know Stephen A. Smith listens to Behind the Pulpit actually.

Bob 40:06

We know he does. He's a big fan. I got a quit, I got a theological question. I get all my theological information from behind the pulpit. You guys are really good at that. All right, there we go. Stephen A. Stephen A, it's unequivocal.

Tim 40:21

This year marks something truly special. 175 years of God's faithfulness through Millington Baptist Church. For generations, God has been at work saving, shaping, and sending his people. And in 2026, we're taking time to celebrate all that he has done and all that he will continue to do. That celebration begins on Saturday, May 2nd at 11 a.m. with our 175th anniversary tree planting ceremony, a moment to recognize that we are a church firmly planted, growing together, and made to multiply. Then on Sunday, June 7th at 4 o'clock p.m., we'll all gather together for a special anniversary worship service at Liquid Church in Parsiphone, lifting our voices together in praise and thanksgiving. Throughout the year, there's even more to look forward to, including our first ever NBC Summer Fest on September the 5th, Missions Conference on October 2nd through the 4th, and a former 175th anniversary pennyquit on November 12th at the Old Mill Inn. And as we celebrate, there are plenty of opportunities for you to be a part of it. Not just attending, but serving. You can find all the details and sign up to get involved by visiting the 175th anniversary page on our website. So make plans now and get ready to celebrate 175 years of God's goodness and step into what he's still doing here at NBC.

Dave 41:31

Wow.

Bob 41:31

What's uh since apparently we didn't get any audience questions, right? No audience questions? We got the one we covered in the news. We covered. All right, so let's move on to the sermon here, Pastor Dave. You kicked off a new sermon series. Um, I forgot to bring all the merch with me today. I was we had we had bookmarks flying off the shelf. We had invite cards going, we had annual reports being taken by the by the tens. It was amazing yesterday. And then Dave got up there and he was bringing the fire. Just tell us about it, Pastor Dave.

Dave 42:01

Second Timothy is Paul's last letter that he wrote to the church. It is all about his last will and testament. It's about passing the faith to the next generation. It's Paul saying to Timothy, I've fought the good fight, I've finished the race, I've kept the faith. Now it's your turn, Timothy. I want you uh to guard the treasure of the gospel. I want you to multiply your ministry by sharing this message with key other people. I want you also to stick with the scriptures that you learned when you were a child. And finally, I want you to finish well and preach the word. Second Timothy is a beautiful letter. It's a it's a heartfelt letter, it's a personal letter. It is um a wonderful uh recounting of Paul's last words that are relevant to us today because we're celebrating our 175th anniversary as a church, and we're starting to think about okay, how do we make sure that we pass the faith to the next generation coming after us? We've had a wonderful first 175 years. What's next? What is over the horizon? How do we think about the people that are to come? How do we think about setting our church up so that our children have a ministry that's grounded and well-founded and ready to take them into the challenges that they're gonna face in the future? So the name of the series is Passing the Faith to the Next Generation. And we kicked it off yesterday with chapter one, the first five verses. And I hope that just whet your appetite for what we're gonna be talking about in this series. I think that it's gonna be a powerful few months together, 11 weeks exactly, is how long we're gonna be in 2 Timothy. It's a great book. I feel like my time and seminary emphasized 2 Timothy probably more than any other book of the Bible. There was a big sign on the yard that said preach the word. Uh, they were always talking about 2 Timothy in chapel. This was like it's a pastoral epistle, right? So it's written to a pastor. So I find this letter to be very relevant to me personally, but I would. I will say I also think it's relevant for the entire church at large. This was meant to be read aloud to the whole church body, and there is messages there that will be relevant to everybody, no matter what role you play in the church. It's it's a great letter. It's gonna be a great series.

Bob 44:16

Well, you just uh you brought it yesterday, was uh was wonderful. Um you you did use one amazing illustration that most people won't forget. Maybe that'll come up later in the uh in the conversations if you know if you know you know. Um but this is what I was thinking here. I wanted to ask you, um, you threw out some stats. Why why do you think so? 175 years, that's that's a pretty long time. Why do most churches not make it 175 years? What happens?

Dave 44:51

Oh, that's a good question. So you know churches have organizational life cycles, and just like any other organization, if you drew like that that bell curve type thing where you have the the the rise of the organization, then it kind of peaks, and then it can start to go into the decline. And if you don't do something right there to make some changes and make some adjustments and get ready for a new revisioning of the next vision, the next future, then you're gonna miss the opportunity to continue the health of the organization. You know, I think about like on an individual level. If you have one person accept Christ and they're a brand new believer, they're fired up about Jesus, they never even heard about the Bible, they don't know anything about this, and they're like ready to go. That person's fire doesn't necessarily get transferred to the next generation after them. The the the person who grew up a Christian, who always went to church, who had this taken for granted when he was in he or she were were were in their earlier years, they're not as passionate sometimes as the first generation believer. So yeah, that second generation, they just kind of it's all they knew. And they don't see it as vital as the first generation does, and sometimes they don't even make the effort to pass it to that third generation who doesn't know God at all. They now for the third generation, like church is kind of optional, it wasn't really emphasized. And so sometimes there can just be a natural uh fading away of the importance of religion. That's more like an individual level, yeah. But on an organizational level, you know, every organization has to continue to adapt to the new circumstances. Uh, it has to be the word that Stephen Presley used in this book, would it has to be contingent, it has to be looking at okay, what is our response to this particular event or feature of our culture now? How should the Christians respond? If a church is not asking those questions, then they're gonna start to become less and less relevant. So the church has to always be changing. And I know change is hard, uh, but you know, someone once said, um, if you don't like change, then you're gonna like irrelevance even less. Okay, because everybody has to go through the necessary adaptations of you know, what are the needs of the the current moment? We're in a moment, Pastor Bob.

Bob 47:24

It's a it's a current moment. I did I heard you mention about the current moment in the in the sermon. Tim, we're in a moment. Which kind? Tim is Tim is civilizational.

Tim 47:33

We're in a civilizational moment. I'm currently theological moment. Is there another kind of moment? Uh cultural. I'm currently in the cultural moment. Yeah. But I I can I shift back and forth between the civilizational and cultural moments pretty quickly.

Bob 47:45

I think that's uh worthy of having a new section. Is it a cultural or civilizational? That might be the new the new segment next week. All right. So, Pastor Dave, I also couldn't help but notice you you uh you brought back for the first time in a while, you brought back a chart. You had a very colorful chart about the structure of the letter of 2 Timothy. And I was thinking as I looked at that at that chart, what does that teach us about the message of Timothy and about our current civilizational moment? But I what does it what does it also tell us about like how how churches and pastors can last through ministry? Uh you're talking about the chart that outlines the four chapters of the book or a different chart? That was the chart I was referring to. Yeah. Was there another chart? Uh that one caught my eye.

Dave 48:34

No, that's the only chart that I have. That is the one I'm talking about. So, you know, I don't know that I'm exactly answering your question here, but chap chapter one, two, three, and four have very different themes. And I think as you walk your way through the book, it's helpful for me to just to think about what's the major theme of chapter one, and you're gonna finish chapter one next week. What's the major theme of chapter two? What's the major theme of chapter three? I can send you the chart, Tim, if you want to throw it in there. But um, so chapter one, I'm surprised he didn't already is all about it's all about guarding the treasure. And the treasure in this case is is the gospel that Timothy's been entrusted with. He's like a it's like he's a trustee, it's like he has a trust. And so he has to guard this gospel because it's very important to leave intact. And you're gonna talk a lot about this next week because that's where that passage is really centered. So guarding the trust is like chapter one, and then chapter two is about like you can't do this alone. So multiply your ministry, the things you heard from me, uh, you know, pass these on to faithful men who will be able to teach others. And if you think about that verse, there's actually four generations there. So the things you heard from me, that's Paul. And then he's passing them to Timothy, and then he's telling Timothy, I want you to entrust these things to faithful men who will be able to teach others. So there's four generations. There it is. There it is.

Bob 49:52

You know it, and it's green for St. Patrick's Day.

Dave 49:54

Yes. And did you notice the edges? Yeah, look at that.

Bob 49:58

I beveled the gold, whole letters, and beveling. Weep it's a gold in the green.

Dave 50:02

Yeah. That is Chapter three, stick with the scriptures. This is that wonderful chapter that says all scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training, and righteousness, so that the good man might be adequate, equipped for every good work. Um, the scriptures are what Timothy is going to stick with. And then chapter four, Paul is being poured out like a drink offering. The time of his departure is near. I've fought the good fight, I've kept the faith, I've finished the race. And now there is in store for me, he says, the crown of righteousness that awaits not only me, but he says, to all of those who long for his appearing. So that's all of us. We all want to long for his appearing, we all want to finish well. So that's my 2nd Timothy chart, and hopefully that uh gives you some answer to the question that you're asking.

Bob 50:52

I'm not sure. There's a chart. I'm sad. You know what? The fact that I saw a green chart with gold letters, I'm just my heart is warmed. You're welcome. I wasn't thinking about St.

Dave 51:03

Baddy's dead.

Bob 51:03

Well, you know what?

Dave 51:04

But it kind of matched the background of the graphic.

Bob 51:06

It was a movement of the spirit right there. Um, okay, so you had a couple other illustrations in there that that I that I noticed. So you talked about really powerfully that that image of the uh uh the the ISIS and the uh the Christians in Africa, and you were talking a little bit about persecution. So why did you use that illustration and what can that say to us today?

Dave 51:29

Do you remember that story from 2015?

Bob 51:31

Oh, yeah. Oh, I remember.

Dave 51:32

Okay. Well, it recently kind of came back into the news because they made a movie about it. Are you guys aware of this? I it's called The 21.

Bob 51:44

I was not.

Dave 51:45

They made a movie. All right. Um, it's a short animated film, it's 13 minutes long, and um it's not gruesome, but there is cartoon blood that you see. I wouldn't watch it with your daughter Jenna, but maybe teenagers could handle it. So it's a I'm so glad these creatives, like guys like Tim, they they took some time and they put this story in in a digestible video format that can be embraced and understood. It's these these 21 Coptic Christians that were not pastors or church leaders, they were regular day laborers that were Christians, and they were told by these ISIS leaders to convert or die. I learned actually this week that the the 21st guy did not actually profess faith till the very end. So there were 20 Egyptians, and then there was one guy from Ghana, and he was kind of considering Christianity, and he got kind of looped in with the rest of the group, and he was going to be murdered too. And when they came to him, the guy who wasn't yet a Christian and asked him if he would convert or die, he goes, My God is their God, and they killed him too. So at the last minute, this guy actually converts to Christ as well, right on the Mediterranean beach there. Um, these were genuinely martyrs, they were killed for their faith, they were Coptic Christians, and the ISIS made a video and it was used as propaganda to spread terror and fear around the world. This video is not for that purpose. Um, it was shortlisted for the Academy Awards for Best Animated Short. Um there was a lot of people involved in this, so it's called it's called the 21, I believe is the name of it. It's a dramatized film and it's animated and it's very well done. I think I think it's worth watching. And the point of me bringing this up in the story, uh sermon, the point of me bringing this story up in the sermon was that Paul was a terrorist. He was killing Christians, he was going around spreading terror, he was killing anybody who converted to Christ, who named Christ. He was there approving heartily the stoning of Stephen. He watched them kill Stephen, and he was hunting down Christians to the point where this guy was so into his terror that the Lord Jesus himself came down, knocked him off his horse, and said, Paul, Paul, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? And he says, Who are you, Lord? And of course, God at that point reveals himself as Jesus and commissions him as his great missionary to the Gentiles. But my point in showing that picture was that Paul was one of the terrorist guys at the beginning, his name was Saul. Saul was one of the terrorist guys at the beginning of his adult ministry, and at the end of his ministry, he was like one of the guys in the orange jumpsuits. And I think that's a remarkable testimony to the fact that God, the Holy Spirit, can do whatever he wants to do, and he can take the guy who was wearing the black, uh, who's committing the terror and the murder, and he can turn that same person into the guy who's wearing the orange and be willing to give his life up for Jesus, which is exactly what's happening at the end of 2 Timothy. He is about to give his life, he knows his trial's happening, it's not going well, and he knows he's come to the end. Uh one of the one of the martyr stories that I have read recently is the martyrdom of the apostle Paul, and it there's a detail story about what happened to him in his beheading in the early church. Uh, and this really did occur. So this guy gave up his life for the name of Jesus. And so that's what we're reading about. Well, just before he did that, that's what we're reading about.

Bob 55:43

Well, a very powerful story. Thanks for uh thanks for reminding us of that. I did not know about the movie, so I'll have to go, I'll have to go check it out. So you used a different illustration later in the sermon, and you were starting to talk about um, I don't know if you use the term ex-vangelicals, but the progressive Christianity, which is becoming really popular today, uh, people leaving the faith. And my my question was why is that happening? And how can we as a church be better at faithfully passing on the gospel to the next generation? You talked a lot about that in the sermon.

Dave 56:19

So there's a book that was written um fairly recently called Nonvert. And that's right, um The Nonverts. Yeah. It's a story about how the decline of Christianity has happened more from a sociological perspective. There's all kinds of um reasons there, and um they explain you know what's been going on with the data in our in our country and how this has been going the way it's going, at least over the last 20 years or so. Although I will say recently I feel like there's a trend the other way. Um, whether or not this is long-lasting or this is you know veritable redirection, I genuinely think that there's a move of God right now that's happening that is exciting to be a part of. But there's a lot of damage that's been done over the last 20 years to you know recover, uh not full on Christendom, but to recover a general respect for Christianity in our culture. Because the question now isn't just like, is Jesus true? It's is Jesus even good, right? So uh we've got a lot of ground to cover. In terms of what um the author is saying in that book, I think there's uh a problem with nominal uh affiliation with church. Specifically, he was talking about those who are associated with Catholic Christianity and who were more or less going through the motions of the sacraments with their kids, but not really prioritizing um their faith in their home. That kind of commitment to religion doesn't tend to carry over to the next generation. That's one problem. Another problem is I think what I just talked about with the individual thing, the first generation's fired up, the next generation's like, eh, you know, big deal. There's a lot of different reasons in the book that are listed. It's a worth worth picking up. It's uh it's an interesting study.

Bob 58:15

He's sliding in another book recommendation right here. Yeah. Well, you did ask me about it. I did. I did. As if this guy doesn't win enough. Just kind of dinging his heel in your back, right? It's kicking you while you're down, Bastard Bob. All right, last question. So you used uh uh an illustration at the end of your sermon that you've used before about the three-chair church. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that and uh why is that significant for us right now as a church?

Dave 58:46

So this is just an image, but the three chairs were uh Tim, you decided to put them in the front of the stairs. What was your thinking there? I noticed that you put them down. That was a Tim decision? I was like so close to Oliver Arreedy, it was uh I could almost like, you know, you were gonna reach out and touch his knee.

Tim 59:03

Primarily, they would have just been awkward on the stage. I could have put them behind the pulpit, then he got to move them, then I or I could have put them somewhere else and would have blocked the guitar player. But but I noticed you did the iMag. You made it happen so people could see. I did, and I What was going on behind me?

Bob 59:18

I wasn't even aware.

Tim 59:19

We put down we put the chairs on the ground.

Bob 59:22

He did the video of you. Because you know, because people in the back, because we don't have a sloped sanctuary, it'd be hard to see you, so he put you up on the screen. You put you up on the screen.

Tim 59:28

The balcony, I'd be like out of sight, right? Yes. They wouldn't see you, yeah. Um but we uh also it uh symbolically I thought it was good because you know the the chairs are on the sanctuary floor, so you were coming down to the floor. Coming down sitting on the same chairs that the people were sitting in uh for the illustration, so it's a little bit layered.

Dave 59:46

I got confused with my right and left because I I was looking out at the congregation, and their right was different from my right, and their left is different from my left. I'm like, this is the right-hand chair, right? It's but it's your left. So maybe I should have turned the chairs around backwards and did the whole thing with my back to the audience. I don't know. So the three chairs think of them like the past, the present, and the future. So the the middle chair is where we sit today. This is our seat. And when we got here, we had somewhere to sit, and somebody thought of you, um, and you got to experience the Lord Jesus from your chair, and it was wonderful, and that was important. And then if you notice, there's a chair to the right, and that chair to the right kind of symbolizes that somebody came before you, somebody sacrificed for you, somebody thought about you, somebody prepared for you, and none of us came to church on our own. All of us came to church because somebody invited us, somebody made this possible. And really, the right-hand chair not just goes to the it doesn't just go to the generation in the past, it goes all the way back to the generation of the apostles. And not one generation was skipped. There was always a faithful remnant in every generation to pass the treasure of the gospel to the next generation, and we're thankful for that. And then there's the chair on the left, which nobody's sitting in yet because that person hasn't come here yet. The chair in the left represents the future, the chair in the left represents the person who's yet to come, the chair on the left represents the person who we're making space for. And a three-chair church honors those who have come before us in the past, and they also prepare for the people who are not yet here in the future. They advocate for the person who hasn't even darkened our doors. They're not yet a Christian, they haven't yet experienced Jesus, but we want to make room for them. And that's just symbolic. The chair is symbolic. What we mean there is we want to make room in our parking lot. We want to make room in our ministry spaces. We want to make room in our in our church body so that we can incorporate the person who's going to occupy that seat when they come. We're we're saving you a seat, is sometimes what we say in some of our literature. We want to be prepared by making sure that that left-hand chair is available for people who come. Because when I invite somebody to come to church, like, you know, um I want them to have a good experience. I want them to be able to find a spot to park. I want them to find a spot in our sanctuary. I want us to be ready. You know, the church should be a family expecting guests. And uh unless we're ready, you know, why would God even send us um people who need to know the gospel? We we have to be first prepared. And so that's our job to get ready with that left-hand chair.

Bob 1:02:34

Well, very powerful, Pastor Dave. Thank you so much for walking us through uh that beginning section of Timothy. Uh I will pass the baton to you now. I will I will receive that baton, and we're gonna be looking at uh 2 Timothy 1, 6 through 18. There's a couple very famous verses in that section about Timothy fanning his gift into flame, and God has not given us a spirit of fear, but I see fire coming next week, Tim. I see it torture. I I I I do have a couple fire ideas in my title. Should break out the break out the smoke machine. We'll see. But it's gonna be a good week. I think not. Uh it's gonna be a very, very good week. All right, Pastor Dave, we're we're at the end of our our uh show today, and it's time to do a little theology sprint. And uh I think Tim is gonna Pastor Dave, let's see.

Tim 1:03:21

You know, so can we just let's see let's let's see if see if you can here it is.

Bob 1:03:24

So let's just put the thing back up there. There it is. Why he's like, I'm gonna talk theology right now. I feel like we need Incredible. I feel like we need a new graphic.

Dave 1:03:40

This is for you, Felicity.

Tim 1:03:45

All right, what do you got for us there, Tim? Uh a couple ones, uh, but we're only gonna pick one.

Bob 1:03:50

Um so Why have you not made a graphic for the other segments yet? I don't know. Well, I feel like this can happen very quickly. I think you should.

Tim 1:03:59

Well, the news has a little thing. Although I'm I'm I'm thinking maybe we should change it in the news to uh the current civilizational moment. It should be the cultural moment.

Dave 1:04:08

Cultural moment, the current the current moment. The current moment. That news jingle is is so classic, though. It's but it just reminds me of something like from CBS on 1985 news. You know it did. It's 10 o'clock news. It's funny.

Tim 1:04:24

The uh Walter Crunkheim.

Bob 1:04:26

Do you know where your children are?

Tim 1:04:28

I believe the Pat McAfee show uses the same jingle, but I think we use it first. Okay, Pat McAfee also is a big fan. He's a sports guy from ESPN. He's also a big fan of Behind the Pulpit. That's he's called you up and said, Yeah, he's like, Can we use this? Sure. Uh-huh. Anyway, uh let's go with this one. Will we eat and sleep in heaven? I hope so. That's it. Have a good day. If there's no steak, I'm looking to take a long nap when I get to heaven. In heaven, is it even heaven? That's the question. I'm just kidding.

Dave 1:05:02

We answered the steak thing when we went through Isaiah when we were talking about the kingdom and the promises and the peaceful animals. And will there be death? Because you need like dead animals to have meat, right? So what we said was if Jesus can you know multiply the fishes and loaves, then you don't have to have death to have meat. But we're not really totally 100% sure about that. But it appears that there's a feast. There's a mountain. Remember your sermon about the mountain?

Bob 1:05:26

Yes, that at the end of Isaiah. We're eating. We're eating on the mountain.

Dave 1:05:29

Yeah, we're we're enjoying the fruit of the vine and the choice meats, I believe is the name that Isaiah has for them. I think there's a future meal. Jesus says, I'm not going to eat or drink.

Bob 1:05:40

Or a Tibmaki saying the most the most luscious, choicest meats in the world.

Dave 1:05:46

There's a passage in Revelation 19 about the marriage supper of the Lamb. Now, whether or not these are images or literal, I think they're more literal. You might say, Well, do you eat when you're resurrected? Jesus did. He had like Fish on the beach, he was eating with them when they broke bread in the house. Somehow his resurrection body was still able to consume food. So I don't think food goes away. I will say something different about sleep. I love sleep, but I was reading one of the early church fathers this past week, Irenaeus, and he was saying that sleep will not be necessary in the future in the kingdom. And I'm not sure where he gets this from. I don't I need to chase down like biblically why would you say there's no more sleep? I think it has something to do with there's no more fatigue, no more exhaustion, and that's somehow related to sleep as a curse or something like that. And then we don't have sleep before the fall. Well, yes, we do. He put Adam into a deep sleep when he created Eve. So we do have sleep before the fall. Uh but were they sleeping every night or was that just a one-time thing? I don't know.

Bob 1:06:53

I guess we'll find out. We'll find out. But imagine you you you have a big old steak and then you take a nap. I don't know.

Tim 1:06:59

Well, yeah, that's the thing. Is that heavy?

Bob 1:07:01

No fatigue, but you have like a nice have a nice burger. I will enjoy, hopefully, in the resurrection body, not not being able to eat whatever I want and having having very little consequence from it.

Dave 1:07:12

I do think learning is there. Learning, growing, exploring. We're not like made omniscient just because we get resurrected. I think there's still learning and growth. I don't know if we're ever tired or exhausted and need sleep anymore. That I'd have to look at that. Our body's totally restored. It's gonna be one long basketball game, Pastor Dave.

Bob 1:07:32

Alright. He's gonna be sprinting up and down the court and not be out of breath. Wow. Vote for Christmas. I want to know in the comments do you think there's sleep up there and why? And I need to know in the Bible why. If you stuck with us this entire time, also let us know do you think you're gonna eat and what would be the meal you'd have every day in heaven? Thanks for being with us today, guys. Ta ta. We'll see you later.