Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Dr. Sonal Parmar
Have you ever wondered about the delicate threads that interweave education and mental health? Dr. Sonal Parmar, principal of Cathedral and John Connon School, Mumbai, shares her remarkable journey and the vital role she plays in nurturing young minds at one of India's leading schools. Our exchange traverses the landscape of her career - from her early academic pursuits to spearheading innovative mental health initiatives that cater to the nuanced needs of students across different age groups. Dr. Parmar's eclectic background not only shapes her educational philosophy but also fortifies the school's proactive approach to mental wellness.
The digital age has undoubtedly cast a long shadow over today's youth, with social media's tendrils affecting children's mental health in myriad ways. In our conversation with Dr. Parmar, we confront the stark realities of cyberbullying, body shaming, and the relentless chase for online validation. We also delve into how education systems are evolving to prioritize student happiness and well-being alongside academic achievement. But it's not all heavy—there's hope in reviving the joy of literature and storytelling, finding creative means to captivate the fragmented attention spans of youngsters, and encouraging a deeper engagement with the world of words and narratives.
Finally, we reflect on the profoundly human experiences that teaching bestows upon us, the emotional highs and lows that come with the territory. From the rewarding moments when past students reach out, to the often unseen struggles they face – these are the narratives that shape an educator's life. We also unpack the intricate dance between parenting and teaching, the importance of recognizing each child's unique journey, and the tools we keep in our emotional first aid kit for those particularly taxing days. Join us for a heartfelt discussion that celebrates the transformative influence of education and the indelible mark it leaves on generations to come, guided by the astute observations of Dr. Sonal Parmar.
#EducationAndMentalHealth #DrSonalParmar #CathedralAndJohnConnonSchool #StudentWellbeing #InnovativeInitiatives #DigitalAgeChallenges #Cyberbullying #BodyPositivity #OnlineValidation #StudentHappiness #LiteratureAppreciation #CreativeEngagement #TeachingExperiences #ParentingChallenges #EmotionalFirstAid #TransformativeEducation #GuidingYoungMinds #Podcast #DetangleByKinjal #AcademicAchievement #YouthMentalHealth #EducationalPhilosophy #HopeForTheFuture #NarrativesThatShapeUs #EmotionalWellbeing #TeachingJourney
Welcome to D-Tangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I am your host, dr Kinshal Gowil, a psychologist and a writer. We have with us today Dr Sonal Parmar, the principal of the Cathedral and John Conn in School Mumbai. Dr Parmar has taught English at the undergraduate level in Delhi University colleges and worked with various organizations and NGOs. She has also worked in different roles in the areas of translation, editing and writing for nearly seven years. Born and brought up in Alabad, dr Parmar came to Delhi for her higher education and then moved to Mumbai six years ago, taking on the role of the principal of one of India's leading schools. A literature buff, she finds herself happiest in the company of the written word. It's time to chat with Dr Parmar and discover the person behind that beautifully imposing desk. Welcome to D-Tangle, ma'am, and thank you so much for taking the time and being with me today.
Speaker 2:Good morning, Dr Gowil. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me to be a part of your podcast.
Speaker 1:Ma'am at the helm of one of India's leading schools. Everyone knows you as the principal of Cathedral and John Conn in, but take us back in time. How and when did your career in education start?
Speaker 2:I think I've reached where I have these coincidences, or the universe has conspired in some way, because if you had told me 15 years back, dr Gowil, that I would ever be in a school forget as a principal, but in any capacity most probably I would have been very dismissive and amused. I think that's life having a laugh at me now. I started off when I was doing my MA. I started teaching at the undergraduate level in Delhi University colleges and was there for a couple of years, but I somehow felt that this is nice, but this is maybe not what I want to do for the rest of my life. It was more a process of elimination rather than anything else and I started freelancing. I worked as an independent translator and editor and content writer for a couple of different organizations. I was very, very lucky because I got good work, worked with institutions like the Raza Foundation or the India Habitat Centers, visual Art Gallery, ignca, also at some point, film directorate of India. I was very involved in culture or very interested in culture, I should say and therefore it was work that I enjoyed. You don't have a boss, you choose what you want to do. There are a lot of. I mean it was good. I think I was quite happy. In the meantime. One of the jobs that I took up was as editor-in-chief of the English publications, essentially around the International Theatre Festival at the National School of Drama, where I continued as editor-in-chief for eight years. That was an entirely different experience for me. I loved it.
Speaker 2:Then a very good friend of mine, who happened to be an advisor in one of the schools in Noida, told me that, look, we are looking for a teacher for English, for the IB, and can you help out? I still remember that I told her of course not. I mean, I have no experience with children and I don't have kids of my own. I actually had no experience with children of that age group and I had never, ever, been in a school professionally. I completely rejected. But she was very insistent and she said just come teach and leave the school, got my IB and IGCSE training done and I started teaching. I was exactly that a very, very reluctant first-timer. I would go to school, teach and come out Somewhere.
Speaker 2:In one of those many, many, one of those many days, I think I just realized that, hey, I really like doing this and I like talking to the kids of this age group. I think I get along with them. I think we can connect well. I love teaching at this level, so that's what happened from a part-timer, I became a full-timer and then started leading the English department with my colleagues, took over the career counseling department. I love my subject, so it was actually just a joy to be teaching and I loved my students, who, I think, are the biggest reason for me deciding that I want to do this.
Speaker 2:One day, I got a call from Mrs Isaacs, the principal of the Cathedral School, offering me the position of a vice principal in Cathedral, and I was very, very taken aback because I had zero experience in administration, and I still recall I told her that, ma'am, I think she's made a mistake because I had no experience in in administration, but she said that she knew exactly what she was talking about and I came to Bombay for an interview with the board. And well, they made me an offer and I moved to Bombay and joined the school in 2018 as vice principal and two years back, in 2022, I took over as principal. So that, as you can see, is a journey that has been all over the place, but I think that the eclectic nature of my experiences has really made life very interesting and I think I'm the richer for it.
Speaker 1:Mam, it's so beautiful that you have brought in so much diversity to the central role. We are part of a collection of our experiences and, to start with so much behind you, it is so nice that all of this has come together in a role which now leads so many children. So more power to you on that. One of the things, mam, that has always struck me unique about Cathedral is the presence of different counselors for different age groups of students. This shows the school's tremendous commitment to mental health. But tell me, how does the system work?
Speaker 2:All right. So I think that the school has been very forward and today, when I, based on where I am now, I think mental health, dr Gowal you would know is emerging is such a huge challenge across ages and especially among staff kids. I think they are really struggling in a way that possibly we did not when we were younger and therefore we feel in the school that it is important to have support for the children. As far as you know, psychological counselors are concerned at every level. I, as psychologists, are now psychologists, sorry are concerned so at every age group, but the challenges are different.
Speaker 2:So, rather than having one or two counselors who are more generic to the entire range of student experience, what we try to do is that for each section or each phase of the growing up journey, we have a counselor that focuses on children of that specific age group.
Speaker 2:For instance, in our infant school we've got counselors for children from five to seven. In our junior school it moves again a few grades high and by the time the children come to senior school, their, their challenges have changed, their vulnerabilities have changed, their struggles, their bodies, their, their mental space, all of that has changed and therefore the counselor is having a conversation that is very different from what it would have been with a child, you know, maybe in class three or even in class six. So I think the decision to have different counselors focusing on different stages of the trajectory is a very good one. It has worked well. I think it has lent our children a lot of support and as the children move from one section to the other, we have a very detailed handing over that, you know, the the psychologists of the first group hand over to the second group, with every child giving background, giving context, so that it's easier to take it further. You know, and I think it's, I think it adds strength to us and to the kids.
Speaker 1:So lovely to see that you're actually walking the talk. I mean, people are talking about mental health everywhere, but very few are taking such solid steps to ensure that everyone is covered in the most applicable way possible.
Speaker 2:Amazing. We're definitely trying to so and we've got a great team. I think you know I have tremendous respect for my counselors because I see the work they do and how fundamental it is to to the sense of self that a child has, to the experience of growing up that child has so at every stage. I've got a fabulous team. How nice.
Speaker 1:Ma'am. On the one hand, media social media have helped us raise awareness about mental health issues, you know, especially amongst adolescents and teens. On the other hand, these same platforms seem to be aggravating the mental health crisis. What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2:I am. You know, I am deeply, deeply conflicted by this, dr Perule, because I think social media has really the potential to be a monster andI think that that extremely ugly side of human beings that I don't know is triggered by what Social media is increasingly becoming a space to allow the venting and the expression of that side of us. I see it, I see it a lot, especially in the increase in the cases of cyberbullying, also in the kind of, you know, just just body shaming or being mean to each other, the kind of things that children are saying on these social platforms. That's one part of it. The other part is also the constant, you know, the constant gaze, right? I think that you know, when I was growing up, who were the people who were really judging me maybe a handful of friends who were friends, you know, who would say something and you would maybe feel bad for a day or two, and then it would be fine because you're friends, or it would be people I know or people I had a certain kind of equation and relationship with. Now these children are being judged by the entire world, whether it's Insta, whether it is Facebook, whether it is, you know, snapchat or whatever it is that they are on the number of likes they get impacts them. There is this tremendous need to project the perfect life, everything they do seem.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I tell my children that you know, it's like your lives do not exist unless you document them somewhere.
Speaker 2:But and they sometimes, with a more senior ones, they'll say but miss, this is also memory making. But I feel, which they are right about, it is memory making, but it's also kind of moving away to a very digital kind of memory making and moving away from your own mind and memory and experiencing of the moment. So why do you need social media to create a memory of a wonderful holiday? What is it doing in your heart and in your head for you to carry for the rest of your life? And why? Is that dependent on the number of pictures you take, or the the constant number of pictures that you take, you know, and how other people respond to it. So, whether it's what they eat or what they wear or where they go, I think there is a tremendous pressure to live up to certain standards of a good life. That is very, very external to them but that impacts them greatly and I think it places a lot of pressure on them.
Speaker 1:So for me, for all the good that social media has done, I think it has done tremendous harm as well, because you know it's, it's just given space to a certain ugliness Right did not exist earlier and I think, as the guardian of the mental health and safety of so many children, it impacts you more because you want to keep them safe, you want to watch them thrive and here you know, children are barely trying to survive.
Speaker 2:Correct. It is actually, you know, dr Goyal. It is heartbreaking and I truly feel that the mandate of what a good school is has changed over time. It is no longer just about the academics. Today there are many schools, and all of them academically sound, you know. All of them have good teachers, they have certain facilities, they have resources.
Speaker 2:I Would find it very difficult to say that this is a bad school. For any school that I know of. They're all good. But the Experience of the school is about more than the academic engagement. It is about the experience that you leave around that. It is about how it feels when they know they're going to go to school in the morning. Is it with anticipation or is it with apprehension?
Speaker 2:And I feel that my biggest responsibility now is to create a space where they are happy. I think they are dealing with more than enough and I don't want this to be one more thing for them to deal with. You know that's that would be my mission actually to For them to know that, okay, school is a place where they've got my back, which is a home in so many ways, which is a place that they're going to push me, but they're going to push me because they think I can do better. They're going to hold me to a certain standard and are going to draw a lot of lines for me not to cross, but they're also going to give me space for my voice and for me to be the best version of myself, because they love me. So let's see, that's the dream.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so, ma'am. Coming to your love for books, I know you're an ardent reader and you've worked in the field of editing for so long. You know, in many ways I'm a reader too, and I find a long-drawn story in a massive book very meditative. The reader slowly gets acquainted with the plot. The characters reveal themselves eventually, but nowadays the attention span is so low that children are not even finishing those 10 second reels anymore. So how can we get them back to this? You know, this mindful living, this life of intent which we were so used to.
Speaker 2:You know, dr Goyal. If you have an answer to that, please do. I wish I knew. I wish I knew. But I completely hear what you say because, honestly, that's it.
Speaker 2:The attention span has become so, so small and Even when, like I see very often Something, they will just fast forward right until there is action. You know the, the building up to the action, the slow Wide angle photography. You are getting context, you are getting, you know the building up of suspense or whatever it is. They have no patience for that. So they will fast forward until there is something happening. And it's the same when they read a Lot of them, that you know they will. If there is a long descriptive Paragraph or page, they will just skip until a point where they think that there is there is movement, there is apparent movement. Right, something is happening. Yeah, someone is doing something. Yeah, you know. Obviously I always, you know Tell my students that when you're reading, something is always happening. Even if they're describing just a scene and just the way that the weather is on a particular day, it is still happening because it is helping your mind to create a context. So action is not only action. Action can. Things can unroll in different ways, but for them that the understanding I think is is has become limited and they are very, very impatient with anything that is slow.
Speaker 2:I I say that in metaphorical terms as well as literal they are impatient with anything that is slow. I see that I wish I could get them to figure out a way that Makes them read. We have a very, very strong and vibrant reading program which we kind of stress on, and I think our kids do read. We make it a point that they do Not as much as I would like them to, especially as they start growing older, but they do. I think we're trying to do the best we can, dr Cole.
Speaker 2:But yes, this is something that sometimes saddens me, that the love for reading is Seems to be on the wane. But then, at the same time, I see how much of new literature is being produced, how much of it is being consumed. So maybe, maybe there is all that bad. There is hope. There is no need to despair as of now. But yes, I think attention spans have become less, and when I say that, you know they, they have no patience with anything slow, I think sometimes even with themselves. Give themselves enough time to Become themselves. They want everything to happen very quickly and therefore if they are taking time, even if it is something as Simple as understanding of a concept. Sometimes I tell students, if we are talking about an example that is appropriate, that you know it'll come. Give it time, you don't know, human being understands everything right away. We all have our areas of relative strength and relative improvement, but so give yourselves time. But I think they, they are very impatient with themselves.
Speaker 1:So this is this is one thing I keep telling my girls. They're both teenagers and when they get impatient with something and they want to just do something to get it done, I tell them this is like a muddy lake the more you pat down the sand, the more it's going to rise. Just wait, it will settle. Basic rules taught in school everything to settle, just wait. And then they get perspective like, okay, we need to do nothing for a while. Yes, it's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I really wish they would do a lot more of nothing. I think I think I would love my students to be doing a little more of nothing. I'm sure they're going to love this podcast a lot more than I thought.
Speaker 1:I can imagine.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of my teachers and possibly parents, being aghast at that, so I think I should qualify that. Say it in moderation, in moderation. But yes, I think that this is a very important thing, but but yes, I think that they stretch themselves so thin sometimes that it starts exhausting them. So Moments of breathers, moments of that doing nothing and just being I'd be very happy to see my kids, especially my senior kids, doing more of that.
Speaker 1:Right. Coming back to mental health Now, teachers' mental health is just as important and at risk as the children studying under them. However, teachers tend to live up to the role that they've been placed in and they usually suffer in silence. Do you see this? I mean, how do you think your school, or even other schools, can step in and support the teachers who are working so hard for the kids?
Speaker 2:I think, dr Gold, that's very, very relevant, this point that you've raised. I think the teachers have a tremendous amount on their plate and as adults they also have responsibilities, not just of school but of home, of their own lives, and definitely the mental health of teachers needs to be addressed in more significant ways. We are in the stages of figuring out a program, at least some kind of helplines that we can enter into, you know and understanding, with where our teachers can just call if they need to vent, if they need advice, if they are feeling a certain way and just want to say things that they do not think they want to say to other people. We do have some of the teachers will sometimes go to the councillors in school, but you know it's different with a colleague. At the end of the day, possibly someone outside would be better.
Speaker 2:So we are, even as I'm speaking to you, we are in the process of setting that up for our teachers. How lovely is that. But and like I said, we don't need to know. I don't need to know who's calling, what they're talking about, entirely confidential, but they should know that they have this, you know this option. But if they are just becoming a lot. There is someone who anytime right they can speak to.
Speaker 1:That's great, Really great. Coming back to teachers, ma'am, I read a very interesting study and I've been waiting to discuss this particular study with you Now. This study says that children's happiness quotient can be the highest if a child has the same class teacher moving up with them as they go through school. The subject teachers, of course, can change according to the subject which comes in. I'm not sure as a psychologist what I feel about it, but as an educationist, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Okay, actually, I would be very interested to know what you feel about it, to learn a little bit more. But see, I think what needs to, dr Goal, strike a balance. So what we have in our school, for instance, is until junior school, which is until class four, the same teacher is teaching everything, all right. So you have a class teacher and that class teacher does different things with you, along with an associate teacher, and there are different areas of strength that come in. For instance, when you're doing an assembly or you're playing, then obviously there are different teachers taking care of that. But as you grow, then you have class teachers and then the subject teachers come in and out. I don't really think it has been working badly, but what we do do is that, for instance, I'll give you from senior school, the teacher in class eight stays with the class teacher who's like the constant. She's the one who in the morning will take the attendance. So every class has a class teacher and an associate teacher.
Speaker 2:Standard eight to 12, I'm talking about they will remain the same. Eighth, nine, 10th, oh, okay. So the kids grow with them through those three years. Then there is a change in standard 11, who will go through with them to standard 12. Okay, so it's good both, I think for the kids, because there is a certain sense of stability, right, and at the same time you have a whole lot of subject teachers who are coming in in different periods. So there is a good combination of the two. But that's the way we do it and it's also good, I think, as far as the teachers are concerned, because they're on rotation. You know, they teach standard eight, then nine, then 10, and then after that back to standard eight nine, 10.
Speaker 1:So you've basically implemented this study already in a small part. So maybe not for 10 years, but for three at least.
Speaker 2:Wonderful, yes yes, absolutely, absolutely. Oh, I'm glad I was able to discuss this with you then. Yeah, yeah, no, this is something, but what is your opinion on this? I really would like to know.
Speaker 1:I am actually thinking a lot about this recently. I'm trying to get some input from other schools and colleges as well. I think it might help because there will be a certain sense of mentorship, a certain sense of belonging. But it will also take away from the students what a new class teacher might bring. Like you said, after three or four years I see students very influenced by different teachers in different ways. If we deprive them of this experience and influence that comes in with new teachers, I'm not sure whether it's the best thing for them. But I also know how comfortable it can be to have the same face as you go through school. It might soften the blows of the outside world. So I am myself trying to find out how this will work, especially in our Indian setting. But I'm still curious. I'm still very intrigued by it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's interesting. Whenever you do get some clarity, Dr Gold, do share it with me. Definitely, Like I told you, I think for us this is a good combination of the changing and the unchanging. So let's see. I think it works well for the kids.
Speaker 1:So far Great, ma'am. On a very personal note, has there ever been an incident with a student which has really warmed your heart so much that all adversity has faded away, or any moment that simply broke your heart and you didn't know what to do with it later?
Speaker 2:Oh wow, that's a tough one, because this may sound like a treat, dr Gold, but actually there have been several of both. I think the former category, when something a student does touches your heart, is the reason I do this job. I can imagine it is what. I think any teacher would say this to you. That's what makes us come to school each day. Every year, in children's day, I tell the children you are the reason I come to work every day. But I think this would when a student who you have taught and who has gone into the world makes the effort and takes the time to reconnect, to come and meet you for no reason other than just to want to meet you, it is one of the most heartwarming things. Oh wow, because you have absolutely nothing that you can do for them. Then they stand to gain nothing from you. But I think that is one of the most rewarding that when they call you on teachers day, even if you've taught them 10 years back, 15 years back in some cases, I'm sure or they invite you to the weddings of their children I remember some of my teachers. I think that's very, very. It's quite irreplaceable, that feeling. True, it's irreplaceable. So the small things that my children do. I think every time they Increasingly again, I will say because my interaction is much more with my senior children.
Speaker 2:I think every time a student has trusted me with a vulnerability, I have been very humbled, because the young people today do not trust you easily and with things that matter enough to them that would maybe make them cry or would make their voices quiver If they come and talk to me about those things. I take it as a tremendous compliment and I find it incredibly, incredibly, like I said, humbling. I take that trust very, very seriously but at the same time it breaks your heart when you feel frustrated about not being able to do more to help them, especially when you see children struggling with a home situation. You know there is only so much one can do and it's so. One feels so helpless that you cannot really do more. Sometimes, when I some of the kids, some of the things that they've shared with me or told me, you just feel like putting your arms around them and saying that you know, you don't worry, it'll be okay, but that's not the solution and they sometimes have to go back into dealing with whatever the situation is outside. So it's very frustrating, I think, in heartbreaking in terms of that.
Speaker 2:I find it absolutely, absolutely heartbreaking when children are forced to study things they don't want to. They are forced to choose paths and careers that they have absolutely no interest in Because their parents believe it is the best thing for them to do. I don't know if it is or it isn't, but the feeling that a person gets you know, dr Gowel, that I hate this and I have to do it and I have to continue doing it and there is nothing I can do about it. When I hear those conversations it's very, very saddening and again, it's linked to the sense of frustration because there's nothing you can do about it. At best you can have a conversation with the parents concerned. Work sometimes doesn't work at times and at the end of the day, it is the child of the parents, and parents, in their own way, I think, always want what is best for their kids. So it's so complex, this entire dynamic, too many years.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But yes, it's tough, that bit is tough.
Speaker 1:Right. Also, ma'am, taking away from this question, are there any blind spots that parents seem to have developed nowadays with respect to their child's mental health? I'm sure you see a lot of children with issues, but sometimes parents see it and sometimes parents don't. Any central issues which you see are being completely ignored.
Speaker 2:I think generally, you know, even in conversations with other educators and other principals, one of the things that you'll hear, I'm sure, if you speak to other people like me, is that very often, when it comes to learning disabilities, we find a resistance in even getting testing done because there is so much of a taboo that is associated with it, which is so unfortunate because if you test and identify, you can remediate, you can mediate and bring in some kind of support for the child. But very often there is a resistance there. I think sometimes if the kids are struggling, parents don't want to see it. I also think sometimes parents have a they believe the kids are a little stronger than they are, which is a paradox, because sometimes they believe the kids are also weaker than they are.
Speaker 2:But I have seen examples of both that putting the pressure of you always have to be strong, you always have to be on top of it, you always have to be able to handle everything, when sometimes the kid is not able to and is putting up this constant facade. I have seen that also and I have also seen when it is assumed that this child will not be able to do certain things, will not be able to handle, will not be able to manage, will not be able to rise to challenges that put a strain when the kid has it within him or her to do that. So I have seen those assumptions work both ways. But yeah, I guess that's it.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a lot of transference, I think, happening from parents to children.
Speaker 2:But is it something that, dr Gowal, you see happening?
Speaker 1:Well, my whole, let's say, sample, the sample of students or parents that I work with is very limited, because these are the ones who have identified that they need help. So then they come to me, and I don't work with very young children, so it's always the young adults who come, but they've already crossed that first barrier of needing help, so that's why my sample is a little different. Yeah, when I work with schools at a larger level, we try to do this. We try to talk to the parents and tell them, look at them, don't look at a mirror, and then try to place them into that image that you see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. I think as a school we have been very blessed in the kind of parents we have. So this is definitely not something that I feel is across the board and every parent is like that, but even the cases that are few and far between, it's a life, it's a child, it's an example and it matters, even if it's not the norm. But by and large, I think parents, my interaction with them in the school, has been reasonable, it's been rational, it's been extremely us being on the same page.
Speaker 1:That's very empowering. That's very empowering, Ma'am. So another really personal question coming your way. I'm sure you've seen a physical first aid box. We have one at home, you'll have one in the school. We keep our band-aids, painkillers, antiseptic, anything for those minor cuts and bruises, but sometimes we have bad emotional days and we are just emotionally bruised. We need something to take care of us. What if you were to keep an emotional or a mental first aid box with you which you could open at any time and it would make you feel happy. So what would you put in it?
Speaker 2:Wow, what a lovely question, though it's a beautiful question. Thank you so much, I'm glad you think how best to answer it.
Speaker 1:I've had such beautiful boxes come out of this question from all my guests that I'm always waiting to see what my next guest thinks of.
Speaker 2:So what would I put in a box that is to heal me or help me heal when I'm having a rough day? Is that what it amounts to? Yes, definitely a book. Right, definitely a book. Possibly poetry, some music I would, even even though it sounds horrible. I might even throw in the phone because it will allow me to speak to a friend. So the conversation I would put into that box. Access to the people, okay, and maybe a good cup of coffee, oh, wow. So I think that should help me dust myself off and stand up again and take on whatever is headed my way. But, yes, usually conversations with the people. I love some alone time poetry, a book, music and a good cup of coffee.
Speaker 1:How beautiful. So much for sharing such an intimate part of yourself with us today, because all of us have a different box. You know, everybody puts in some part of their selves into this box and I really hope you make one someday and you have it handy when you need it. Thank you for saying that. May I ask Dr Gold what you would like to say? Oh, wow, so my box actually is very dynamic.
Speaker 1:You know, depending on the month or maybe the part of the year, I sometimes change things in my box. I'm a reader as well, but I love writing more, so I always have an empty diary and a pen. I like to keep a piece of dark chocolate, because that's something I usually need when I'm down. Okay, I also keep QR codes of my favorite songs, sometimes conversations with people. Now I'm fortunate enough to record them, so I have some of those, and this keeps changing, you know, sometimes. So when I asked my younger one what she would put, she was very practical and said Mama, I would put a word of cash also, because sometimes you need retail therapy. I said, okay, well, that makes so much sense Actually, yes, and she said Mama, you want an instant pick me up. So that's what I would also add. So that's how our box evolves. You know, we do one together. So my daughter said, we will put it all together and we open it together.
Speaker 2:So that's what we do, that sounds good and that sounds very, very effective. Yes, so true?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, as usually, when I come to an end of a discussion with a guest on my podcast, I leave the floor open if there is a question that you want to ask me as a psychologist although you have asked me a couple of questions already but if there's anything very specific that you want to ask me as a psychologist, this is your time. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:So I think the two questions over the course of the conversation, dr Goel, that I did ask you I really did. I was interested in your answers, the one about you know the teachers and changing teachers, then also about reading those are both things that I would like to know. What you thought about your box what a beautiful, beautiful idea and it's great to know what's in your box. But I think, if I could ask you, I'd like to know what, in your experience, is the biggest challenge that kids face today? If there was one thing that you would say kind of trumps all others, what would it be? As an adult who wants to take care of kids and make it better for them, what are the things that you would guide me towards?
Speaker 1:Again, I would talk from my experience about the older kids, because I work with very young ones. What I see in pre-teens or in teens nowadays is this strife and this whole eagerness to be relevant, and they feel that the minute they stop being relevant, they stop existing. It's like this whole philosophical thought we had, you know, when we were studying in college. We were taught that if a tree fell in the middle of a forest but nobody heard it fall, did it actually fall? So they are grappling with these questions now in a very non-metaphysical way. They're seeing it all the time. If you attended a party but no picture was taken, did the party ever happen? Or if you are not doing enough to be visible, do you even matter anymore?
Speaker 1:Now these things have become issues without even being labeled as such. It's something that they deal with on a daily basis, because the minute you're off the grid, you're actually off the grid and you don't know what's happening. Conversations are changing, slang is changing. I have noticed some of my younger patients coming and telling me that we were not on Instagram because we had exams for a month and when we came back we realized that the language had changed. Wow, and I was like oh really, it's that fast, but that's how they talk. Even when they talk to each other, it's very influenced by what's going on in the cyber world.
Speaker 1:So I think they're really, really grappling with this relevance and this keeping up with the fast-changing, and the future for them is not just unknown, it's unknowable. They have no idea what's coming their way. So I think just building resilience is basically the only knowledge that they really really need, and schools like yours and some other beautiful schools are doing a great job. Let's just hope that they realize that going slow, going underwater and just hiding is fine. Hibernation is beautiful, estivation is even better in the summer, but, yes, we all need to do it once in a while.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't agree more with you. I couldn't agree more with you.
Speaker 1:Ma'am, this has genuinely, genuinely been one of the most fascinating conversations I've had on my season so far, because I have wanted to ask so many questions. This podcast gave me the chance to ask you these questions directly. Your answers affect not just one or two children. It affects the whole generation. So I'm so glad that you were able to take the time off to come and discuss these things with us and show our parents and children, who are listening to the podcast now. They will have probably some answers, probably some more questions, but at least the conversation has started. People are thinking in the right direction thanks to the time that you have given us. So a lot of gratitude from me, a lot of gratitude from my listeners. Thank you for doing this and thank you for being on Detangle today.
Speaker 2:Not at all. Dr Burl, thank you for inviting me. Like I said, it has been a real pleasure. I've enjoyed speaking with you and also listening to what you had to say. I consider where I am to be quite a tremendous privilege and an honor, and I'm actually pretty much in awe of my students, because I think they are just fabulous and to be around them I'm constantly learning from them. You just gave me this example of how fast things are changing in their world, so one has to learn from them if one has to create a space that is relevant for them, and therefore it's been great fun and it's been a joy speaking with you. Thank you very much, thank you so much, ma'am.
