Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Dr. Ruth Mitchell
Navigating the professional world as a woman in high-stakes domains has never been straightforward, but Dr. Ruth's experiences shed light on the resilience and courage needed to close the 'authority gap'. This episode is not just a recount of triumphs; it's a candid look at the challenges faced and the emotional labor poured into breaking barriers. We also delve into the emerging role of AI in healthcare and its implications, emphasizing the necessity for inclusive practices in technology development, and the integration of psychology to improve patient care – something Dr. Ruth champions passionately.
Finally, the episode takes a tender turn, discussing the idea of an emotional first aid kit, both literally and figuratively. Dr. Ruth and I explore the importance of mental health support pre and post-surgery, the influence of personality types on recovery outcomes, and how social media can serve as a tool for empathy and solidarity. These conversations underscore the vital role of human connection and the shared responsibility we hold for the welfare of children across the globe, urging listeners to act with compassion and informed conviction. Join us on Detangle for an enlightening episode that promises to touch your heart and stir your mind.
#NeurosurgeryExcellence #GlobalActivism #DrRuthMitchell #NobelPeacePrize #CulturalRoots #MedicalInnovation #NuclearDisarmament #ProfessionalResilience #WomenInLeadership #AuthorityGap #AIInHealthcare #InclusiveTechnology #PsychologyInMedicine #PatientCare #EmotionalFirstAidKit #MentalHealthSupport #PersonalityTypes #SocialMediaEmpathy #HumanConnection #ChildWelfare #CompassionateAction #DetanglePodcast #HeartfeltConversations #ProfessionalJourneys #EmpoweringWomen #BreakingBarriers #HealthcareInnovation #GlobalImpact #EmpathyAndSolidarity
Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, dr Kinjal Ghol, a psychologist and a writer. Usually my intro music suffices when I introduce a guest on Detangle. Today, I wish I had the drum rolls too. For the very first time, on Detangle by Kinjal, we have with us a Nobel Laureate, a neurosurgeon and a constant source of inspiration to me, dr Ruth Mitchell. Dr Ruth is a pediatric and adult neurosurgeon at Sydney Children's Hospital and the Prince of Wales Hospital in Sydney, australia. From being a citizen of the world, a celebrated neurosurgeon and being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her work as a campaigner to abolish nuclear weapons, her commitment to live with intent is extraordinary. I'm so glad to have you with me, dr Ruth, today. Thank you so much for taking the time and being a detangle with me today.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's such an honor, such a treat for me. I always enjoy having a conversation with you, and I think I'm going to learn a lot from you too today.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm honored For all our listeners. A quick background we met online, we met on Twitter and we've connected ever since, and Dr Ruth was so nice to have read the first transcript of my book, which was Blind to the Mind, and, dr Ruth, you remember you had done a beautiful blurb for me on that as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, that was such a good book. I ought to reread it. I'm sure it's full of rich new insights for me.
Speaker 1:Well, that was a wonderful time for both of us. Let's get started on the questions for detangle now and let's see how much we can cover in the time that we have Amazing. So to get started, dr Ruth, tell me about your journey, I mean from a childhood in Peru to a successful neurosurgery practice and a Nobel Prize. Fill in the gaps for me.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say that if I look back, I feel so fortunate with the opportunities that I've had and the things that I've been able to do and experience and the people I've been able to meet and work alongside. But I think it's important to reflect on the fact that there have been lots of victory successes and soaring highs, but also the crushing lows. So I think my journey, like many people's, has had its ups and downs. As you mentioned, I was born in Peru. I lived there until I was 10 years old. I've also lived in Scotland. I've lived in Ecuador.
Speaker 2:I did my undergraduate degrees in Canada at the University of Calgary. My mother is Canadian and I then went and worked in Slovakia an Eastern Slovakia and a community development project and in each of these new places that I found myself, new challenges presented themselves and I think that was one of the most challenging periods of my time my life living in Eastern Slovakia because I was confronted with structural racism in a new way and I think that really has informed a lot of my concerns around equity and justice ever since then. I then moved back to Canada. For a period of time I worked as a youth worker and I finally decided it was time to study medicine and I had decided I wanted to be a doctor when I was six years old, but it took me a while to get round.
Speaker 2:I went the long way round to becoming a doctor and so I moved to Adelaide in Australia to start medical school at the age of 26 and studied at Flinders University, and I've been so grateful for that choice that I took and very grateful for the doors that have opened for me, and I do think it's a combination of hard work but also great good fortune. People say well, you've made good choices. I just want to acknowledge the privilege that I've had to have good choices to take and, more than anything, I want to acknowledge my parents for providing me with the background and the platform and the passion for both helping other people and for staying in school that they both instilled in me, which have really made it possible for me to do things that seem a bit unbelievable even to me when I think back on them.
Speaker 1:I'm sure I mean this is such a powerful beginning, but tell me, from your childhood, is there any memory, any single memory, that you still go back to and say this really had an impact on me?
Speaker 2:You know, I just one thing that sticks in my mind about service and generosity. That, I think, was a very formative experience. One year for Christmas, we were living in the city of Ataquipa, in the south of Peru, and one year for Christmas, our church decided that what we should do for Christmas, instead of having like a party at church or any of that sort of thing, was that we should, each family, make as much contribution as they could and go out to one of the shanty towns on the on the edge of the city to give away food in in poor communities. And I think it was Christmas Eve that we actually went out to do this, and I remember being in the back of a pickup truck with bags of flour and and other things to give to these families out in this community. And we drove out there and it was, you know, dusty and heartened. We started offering these Christmas gifts, these, these provisions to, to people in this community and we met these families who said no, no, don't give it to us.
Speaker 2:I mean, these people did not look like they had a lot of resources, but what they wanted us to do was to go farther up the mountain, farther up the hill, because they're like. There are people up there who need it more than we do, and they guided us up this path to their neighbors who they felt had greater need than they did, and something about that encounter has always struck me that you know, that is the orientation we all need to have is that there's always someone who needs more than I do. And having a spirit of generosity and kindness with whatever is offered to you by the universe is, I think, so powerful, and I saw the way in which these beautiful people were able to multiply the goodness that we had tried to bring to them and make it so much more wonderful. I don't know why, but when you asked that question, that is the first story that came to my mind.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a beautiful one. Thank you so much for sharing it with me, because I almost went there with you in the last two minutes. I was there seeing what you saw, so it's a very, very strong memory, beautiful. So, dr Ruth, tell me about ICANN now. How did this come about? I mean, from studying medicine to now working with ICANN, how did this powerful intersection come about?
Speaker 2:Oh, I love this story. I love being able to tell the story about the beginning of a campaign that's really shifted the dial on nuclear weapons and getting rid of them. So when I started medical school I felt a little bit at loose ends about, you know, not really sort of finding my tribe, finding my people. You know, I went into medicine because I wanted to help people, but also because I wanted to have an increased platform for advocacy and be able to change things in the world, and not everyone who I found myself amongst in medical school had that kind of worldview. So I was really delighted to meet in my first year of medical school people from the Medical Association for the Prevention of War the MAPW is the Australian affiliate of the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War and so I became connected to both this International Federation and the local Australian affiliate as a first year medical student and I found these are my people a motley crew of caring souls from all over the world, doctors and medical students alike, who've understood that nuclear weapons are a public health issue, that either we get rid of nuclear weapons or they will get rid of us, and that there's no use learning how to prevent sudden death of, you know, from infection or cardiac concerns or anything else in our patients, if we're all going to suffer a sudden nuclear death, you know. So there was just a real clarity that this brought to me and a feeling of kinship with this group.
Speaker 2:So, as we progressed through the years that were my medical school years what I found was that there was increasing frustration with the way that things were going at the international level with regard to making actual progress towards nuclear abolition, and this culminated in 2005 when the Nonproliferation Treaty Review Conference, which is one of the big, you know, un treaties around nuclear weapons. This review conference really, you know, ended in no progress at all. And it was out of that frustration, out of that frustration and discontent, that the campaign known as ICANN was born, the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons. And I feel so fortunate that I was around right at the very beginning of this. I was around when we picked the name.
Speaker 2:I was, you know, there when we picked the logo for the campaign, and this was really the result of some very visionary people, who I'm just so lucky to know and to have learned from who saw that what we were doing at an international level wasn't collective enough, it wasn't inclusive enough, it wasn't overarching enough, it wasn't visionary enough and I can't step into that and we tried so hard to get everyone working on nuclear abolition to actually work together in a new way. And so we launched in 2007, which has also happened to be my last year of medical school and 10 years later we got a treaty that that, through the United Nations, which makes nuclear weapons illegal the Nuclear Ban Treaty, the treaty for the prohibition of nuclear weapons. So that was a great triumph. That was in 2017. So it took 10 years, but we really made some real inroads.
Speaker 1:Wow. So it's a lot of persistence, a lot of hard work. I mean, people just studying medicine say that this is the hardest route they had to take. But yeah, you just went ahead, did something, won a Nobel along the way while you studied medicine. Amazing, tell me about winning this prize, dr Routh. How did you feel in the moment when you found out that you had won a Nobel Prize?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think the thing is that it's nothing that you never expect. You hope to make an impact and you hope that the work that you do and the people that you've joined with will be in some way rewarded for your effort. But I'll tell you what it was like for me. On the day that it was announced that I had won the Nobel, I was sitting in a cafe. I'd just been at a conference, I was in Italy, I was in Florence, I was having my cappuccino. It was just quite an idyllic moment.
Speaker 2:And I was looking up at the TV screen in this cafe and the sound wasn't on. But you could see the ticker tape going across the bottom and you know I could interpret enough Italian to see what was being announced and you could see this woman coming out and standing at a podium with a big you know the big Nobel-like emblem on it. And I could see from the ticker tape below that it was being announced that I can had won the Nobel Peace Prize. And so I sort of let out a gasp and then I just started shaking and I think a tear went down my face and the man in the cafe looked at me and said, oh, oh cappuccino. And I thought no, sir, we're going to need something much stronger than that.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:And so I just walked around Florence that day in an absolute dream, just thinking the sun has never shone so brightly, the grass has never, ever been greener, nothing has ever been more beautiful. It was just an extraordinary experience, and around the world, the many hundreds of people who had been working to well, thousands of people who'd been working towards this, but the hundreds of people whose primary vehicle for good work had been through ICANN, were celebrating in their own ways. So you know, famously our website crashed on that day because everyone in the world decided to Google ICANN. At the same moment, and about sort of five or 10 minutes before the Nobel was announced in Oslo, our executive director, the executive director of ICANN, beatrice Finn at the time got a phone call saying just to let you know you're about to be announced as the Nobel winner, and she thought it was a hoax. She's like someone's pranking us, whatever. So you know it.
Speaker 2:Really no one was truly, truly deeply expecting it. We were all surprised, and then we were all jubilant. But I really want to say that, as wonderful and sweet as that moment was, the real prize is not the Nobel. The real prize has been getting a treaty through the United Nations that finally acknowledges that these weapons of mass destruction are not compatible with humanity and that they need to be abolished once and for all. This is really the beginning of the end of nuclear weapons.
Speaker 1:It's such a great example of awakening this universal consciousness, isn't it? Because there are people everywhere with the same energies, driving towards the same goal, and that's what's brought you so far. So it's so amazing.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more. I think that's exactly what it's an example of, because if you can find the right framing to bring people together, to collectivize action there's so much work that's been done for so many decades If you can bring people together, you really can change the world.
Speaker 1:Amazing, amazing. How did this change, though? Did your life change after this honor was conferred upon you? Did it inspire you to work even harder, or do you think it added this weight of expectations on everything that you did after that?
Speaker 2:I think it does a bit of both. I mean, it puts a little spring in your step. There's days when you're having a tough time. Nothing seems to be going right. It's always in the back of your mind. We did this. We did this wonderful thing together.
Speaker 2:The work is far from done. The world still has almost 13,000 nuclear weapons on it, many thousand of them on hair trigger alert. The work is far from done, but it does give a boost to the work. It gives it an energy. I think one of the most important differences is it has given us a credibility and a platform that we did not have before. So people will take you seriously and will speak to you, even if they think you're a little bit of a hippie, a bit of a do-gooder, perhaps a little divorce from reality. Because, well, at least we should at least give them a platform for a minute, because they do have this crazy campaign where they did get the big gong. So I think that that's been something that we've. I mean, that was a rapid learning curve, I think, for all of us is learning to leverage that in a way that feels like it has integrity and is strategic and appropriate.
Speaker 1:Fantastic Also coming to this authority gap, especially in medicine, Also in campaigning on such a large scale, women have always been given that little bit inferiority, that little bit of space which is not equal you know what I'm talking about when you have to talk yourself just a little bit more. You have to speak a little bit louder to be heard. So how has this experience been for you?
Speaker 2:I think it's been profound and I think it's a really good framing of it to think of it as an authority gap. I think about the amount of times that I and my female medical colleagues, going on to award, are mistaken for the nurse. It's a purely gendered thing. I have very few male colleagues who've ever been mistaken for the nurse. Moreover, I have friends who are male nurses who are routinely mistaken to be one of the doctors. So there's this coding that people have this expectation of who you are and what your role is. Now, because I have a certain energy and people generally figure out that in some way or another I'm probably in charge. At least in recent years, I've noticed that when I'm mistaken for the nurse, I'm normally taken to be the nurse unit manager. But still that's not what I've trained to do. I'm the surgeon. So I think that's one way in which it becomes obvious.
Speaker 2:As you say, sometimes you have to find yourself having to raise your voice a little more, having to be more polite, make more of an effort to have that voice. I think that it can be very discouraging and very frustrating. On the other hand, what I am finding is what a difference it does to just persist. What a difference it makes. Rather to just persist. What I'm finding more and more is young people of all genders coming up to me and saying I really like how you did that, or thank you for being where you are, thank you for being who you are in this place. It just makes me feel like I can do what I want to do now.
Speaker 2:So it's not just young women who want to be neurosurgeons who are identifying with me and saying thank you. That makes it seem possible for me. Young men who have specific career aspirations are saying when I see the way that you do things, I now understand. I can do it my way, I can bring myself to work and it will be okay. I don't have to pretend to be somebody else. So I think that there is. It's a long, long game, but I think living with authenticity and clarity it's good for more than just ourselves. It ignites something in other people as well. I think that's the hope that I have in the midst of the frustration that I often feel. Ippnw has been a very forward-thinking organization, spent a lot of time reframing what public health means, reframing nuclear weapons as a health issue. This is a big deal, but I became the first chair of the board who was a woman at the 40-year mark in the organization's history Wow it's so long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me, there's too many times we find ourselves being the first. It shouldn't be happening in this decade that I'm the first woman to do X, y or Z. This is exhausting and it's embarrassing. We just need to be doing so much better. We need to be so much farther along on this journey than what we are.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Couldn't have agreed more, but it is encouraging to know that there are so many people who are now coming up, and at least the next generation is trying to overcome this gender gap better than we did.
Speaker 2:So well.
Speaker 1:I wish the next generation all the best with this at least. So let's move on. Dr Ruth, there is one thing that I know interests you, and that is psychology in neurosurgery, and you don't just talk about mental health for your patients, but I've heard you talk about it for their families too.
Speaker 2:So can you tell me about this aspect of your work, when you bring everything together, yeah, I mean I think a lot about the context in which care is being provided, and often when you meet me, if you're one of my patients or the family of my patients, it might be the worst day of your life.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm meeting you and your family in the emergency department, maybe your loved one has been helicoptered to my hospital and I'm on the phone to you to let you know that I have to do an urgent operation before you are even going to be able to arrive in the hospital and meet me in person.
Speaker 2:So often it's a period of great distress and high drama when people meet me for the first time, even if people meet me in the outpatient setting, often they're coming in very anxious. They know there's a lump on the scan or there's something on their MRI and they know that it's significant enough that their general practitioner wants them to see a neurosurgeon, and so people come in with this already, this backlog of emotion, and I have to meet them where they are. And so I think so much about what it is that I can do to help to modulate that experience and to try and make sure that the encounter has as little trauma in it as it can possibly have To allow them to feel that they've met with a human first and a neurosurgeon second, if you know what I mean and to make sure that, in anything that I can do to make a safe place for them to talk about what they're worried about or to receive the care that they or their family member needs, there's a lot that we can do to make that better.
Speaker 1:Wow, I think there's a lot of psychology that comes in for everything. I mean, like you said, it could be just meeting a physician, but you have to meet the patient where they are and for you they've already traveled a long journey emotionally, physically and then reached you. So I think this is extremely important that you know that they've gone through so much and you're not just seeing them in the moment that they're there. You are experiencing their backstory with them. I'm sure that makes a lot of difference.
Speaker 2:I think it does and I try to spend. We sometimes have such constraints and we can't spend as much time as we want to speaking to our patients and to their families, but whenever the opportunity is there, it's always so rewarding because you find out about their lives, about their hopes and their dreams, what they're hoping to get back to once they get out of hospital, who motivates them to be well. You find out about the special connections they have in their life, the things that they've achieved, and it's a real honor to be allowed to be a part of their story in some small way and to be witness to their extraordinary, wonderful lives. I don't take it lightly at all the privilege that is extended to me.
Speaker 1:How wonderful. So let me ask you something personal. Is there any piece of advice you would want to give your younger self, knowing all that you know now?
Speaker 2:I think I would want to instill in myself a greater sense of, you know, not putting other people on a pedestal Hmm, because I now experience what it's like when I realize that I'm being put on a pedestal and it feels entirely inappropriate. And I think that I wish I knew earlier that my mentors were just human and that they had doubts and bad days and internal processes which were utterly chaotic, just as I do. I think very often of this sense that we compare our insides to other people's outsides and we imagine that other people have it all together, that they have it all put together and that they all have it all sorted out. But as you have more and more experiences of your own, you start to understand our shared humanity and that even the most luminous and visionary leaders and neurosurgeons and scientists and activists are just human beings. And I think that as we give our mentors and our heroes permission to be human, it allows us to give ourselves permission to be the same.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a brilliant perspective. I mean, this is so new and yet it is so simple. It's one of those deceptively simple ideas, right, that we all understand it, but it takes somebody to tell you that, oh, this is. You know, this is what you should be thinking. So thank you for being amazing. Dr Ruta, I would want to talk to you about your you've published a paper on the impact of AI on human health. I'm so curious about this, and I'm sure most of our listeners are kind of increasing the volume right now to hear what you have to say on this subject.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm really pleased to be able to mention this work that we've done. I think that what I'm noticing in healthcare is that people have got star-eyed. Star-eyed, they're a bit awestruck about AI and they think it's going to solve all of our problems, and I think that's. I think there will be ways in which AI will be able to assist what we're trying to achieve with delivering excellent patient care and being efficient and being creative and all these other things. But I also think that there are lots of downsides and we have to be a little more critical of new technologies and new paradigms, especially when we haven't necessarily always examined the underlying assumptions that are going into models. So one of the examples that I really like to draw people's attention to is that some of the early one of the early applications of artificial intelligence in medicine was this app that was designed to help diagnose skin lesions, Sort of as a kind of like having a digital, like a pocket dermatologist you know a dermatologist on your phone perhaps, so it wouldn't just take a picture of a mole or a rash or a lump or a lesion.
Speaker 2:It would then say, well, I think this is, you know, this is melanoma, or this is an allergy, allergic rash or whatever. The trouble with this, this AI was that, as you know, any any artificial intelligence has to be taught on a data set, and the data set that was used to teach this AI was images of people's skin lesions, but almost something like 90% of the pictures were of light skinned people.
Speaker 2:And so what that did was it meant that the, the, the rates of correct diagnosis made by this AI, you know, were much better in light skinned people than in dark skinned people, and so that introduces error and bias into the system, which actually ends up being discriminatory.
Speaker 2:So if you're relying on this system to deliver healthcare, then it's going to misdiagnose people in a systematically racist way, and that is because of the inadvertent biases introduced into this by not realizing that you need a diverse data set to train on AI with. And if you look at who is doing the coding and who is who is actually designing systems, if it's a whole bunch of white men, then, like the rest of the world, it's going to be a world designed for white men. That will work best for white men and not for all of the rest of us. And so we have so many reasons why we need to be critical and careful and cautious with new technologies like AI and ask these critical questions who is putting this together? Who does it serve? Where is the data coming from? That is, you know, training these systems and and and what are the outcomes? We need to appraise outcomes for each of these interventions, particularly in healthcare.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean, who thought inclusivity would be something we would be discussing in terms of AI and health? But it's everywhere, isn't it? I mean, the minute you close your eyes, absolutely turn your back and you know it just passes you by.
Speaker 2:That's right, and we have to be constantly vigilant, because anything that is designed by humans will bring with it the biases that those humans have, many of which are unconscious, and so we have to be so careful and thoughtful about those, and that's why there's always going to be a need for, you know, a truly intersectional, feminist analysis of everything we do and everything that we interact with.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Tell me, as a neurosurgeon, you see more of the patients who have reached a point who need surgery. But in terms of preventive health, is there anything that people you know let laypeople can do, what children can do to ensure that they have better brain health, anything that we're doing consciously or subconsciously that really kind of takes our health away from us?
Speaker 2:I think there are a lot of things that are. There are a lot of reasons why people's health is getting better over time, and part of that's about things like injury prevention. So when I think of the kinds of things I see people for in hospital a lot of it is of the preventable stuff is injuries, and so when we think about, you know, people getting on a bike, you know there's a big difference if you wear a helmet we think about the kinds of things that we let children do or not do, and I think that there's a lot to be said for making children show children have active childhoods and lots of running around outside priming trees, you know, playing sport, you know all of those sorts of things. At the same time, there's a lot to be said for there to be safety measures in place, and one of the ways in which children get injured and we see that a lot here in Australia because we have, you know, we're a big, huge island surrounded by water is drowning, and so if you think about things that are going to keep your kid healthy, making sure that if you live near water, your kid learns to swim, those sorts of things are, you know, teaching children how to interact healthily and safely with their environment are going to help keep their brain healthy and active and not injured, and I think those are the things we can control, for people worry about what can I do to make sure my kid grows up smart or, you know, does well at school, and I think that those things are more difficult to predict.
Speaker 2:But, generally speaking, every child benefits from being loved, from knowing that they are loved and cared for at home and that, no matter what happens out there in the world, there'll be somewhere safe to land when they come home. And I think we have a duty at a societal level to ensure that every child has a home and every child has a place to be at home and to be safe at home. And I think when I reflect on this, I think about so many places around the world, but particularly in Gaza, where that is not the case, and my heart really breaks for children who are not safe right now, and I think we have to do everything in our power to speak for those children and to do everything we can to shift the dial for children who are not safe.
Speaker 1:I think this is going to be one of the biggest takeaways for us on this podcast, because there's so much that we see and we just disconnect and we dissociate and we say, you know, we're so far away and what can we do? And here you are. You know, you've been there, done that, you've made an impact in a place where you were not even physically present, right, so there's so much that we can do, I mean across the world, not just in India or Australia or anywhere close to Gaza. But if we all awaken to this thought that there are children who are not safe and there are children who don't have a place to call home anymore, I'm sure we can all collectively do something about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really believe we can. And I know that when people connect to their own humanity, it becomes obvious. It becomes obvious that there are things that we can do. And you know the same instinct that makes you want to, you know, bend over and help a child if you see them crying or if they've fallen over in a playground. It's that instinct you know, that we all have, whether you're a parent or an auntie or whatever. You know we don't want to see anybody suffering.
Speaker 1:True. So this just brings me to a thought. I had read this very recently on Dr Adam Grant's post. He talks about distress which comes out of empathy and we've all read this, you know empathic distress where we've just felt so much and we feel like we can't do anything about it and the best way to snap out of it is do whatever little you can find, what you can do, and do it. Don't wait for the larger things to the smaller things that you can find.
Speaker 2:So wise, so wise, and I think there's always something you can do, and taking these small steps really does help to drive out despair. And there's another thing that we can do, and I think that that is to connect with other people. And so, even if all it feels that we can do is bear witness, the task is to do that together. To do that together with other people who care and who are, who are worried about the same things.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So let's talk about something which I ask all my guests social media. Now, you and me connected over social media, so we know it can do great things for us if we use it wisely. But in your, you know, in your work as an activist, as a neurosurgeon, has social media played a good role, or do you think it has just been detrimental, you know, to your health or to the health of people around you?
Speaker 2:I think it has been very helpful to me. Now it's not been without its downsides it can become a little bit of an obsession. You're always checking, you know multiple different platforms, making sure you don't miss out on the slightest development anywhere on the planet. But I think that for me it has been very positive to make connections with people in so many different settings. I mean, some of my my most treasured friendships are with people who I have met on social media and you're able to find these people who feel like kindred at these intersections, and I think that's so. It's so rewarding.
Speaker 2:I also feel so much better informed about communities that I'm not a part of, because I've made strategic choices to follow certain individuals on social media platforms. It's enriched my life. I've gained an education and things that I never went to university to learn. I feel a real, a real sense of connection with people I've never met. I mean, you're a very good example of that, I think.
Speaker 2:Isn't it wonderful there's this wise woman who thinks I'm her friend. Isn't this just incredible? You know, and I know that on more than one occasion I've reached out to you when I have a question, when I'm like if only I knew at excellent health psychology? Oh wait, I do, you know, and so I think that's the very definition of enrichment. You know, I think the richest people are the people who have the best people in their lives, and so I feel so enriched by social media in that way, and for me that makes all of the nonsense worth it. You know there's plenty of trolls and there's lots of hate out there and the bots and whatever else, but like I think it, you know it is possible to wade through that and find these true gems, and for me that certainly makes it very much a net good thing.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. So let me ask you a question, Dr Ruth, that I save for all my podcast guests. We all know what's a physical first aid box, right? Something that you can open and use in case of minor cuts in bruises. You have some band-aids, some antiseptic, etc. What if you were to have an emotional first aid box? You know something which you would keep with you and open on days when you've had a bad day emotionally, you're feeling a little run down and you need a little self care. What would you put in that box and what would make you instantly happy?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I have a collection of a few items that I keep in my you know, in my bedroom that I find very grounding, and I think that those things are the kind of contents of an emotional first aid box for me. I have there's this pink fluffy flamingo that I received from the parents of a beautiful patient I looked after when I was on my fellowship. I did a fellowship in Vancouver in Canada, and it was on my last day of work that they gave me this pink flamingo and my patient had had one too, and so I felt like, you know, these two flamingos are twins, and now I have one and she has one and she's growing up. And I think that you think you know when you're feeling down and when something's gone wrong.
Speaker 2:It's easy just to think that nothing good has ever happened and that you haven't achieved anything, and that you know there's no, there's no sunshine or light or happiness ever to be had again.
Speaker 2:But there's something wonderful about these physical mementos that that ground me and remind me of who I am and what I have actually done and what my relationships and connections really are, and so I think that some of those items would have an important place there. And one other I want to mention is one of my mom's oldest friends. They were roommates in university, you know, like 400 years ago, you know what I mean. She we grew up calling her Auntie May and Auntie May gave me a photograph that I'd never seen before recently and it's framed and it's a photograph of me and my mother and I'm just a baby and we're just sitting on the grass and I'm looking up at her adoringly and I think that that photo would definitely go in my emotional, frustrated box, because that that photo reminds me that I'm loved and that I have been loved and supported my whole life, and that gives you a strength that that no one can take away.
Speaker 1:Your little box seems like a virtual hug. I mean, it just sounds so perfect and so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. Before I come to a close of this discussion, though, dr Ruth, I want to leave the floor open to you now. Is there any question that you want to ask me as a psychologist?
Speaker 2:You know there really is. I want to know what is it that you wish neurosurgeons knew about health psychology that they don't seem to know?
Speaker 1:Wow. I think to begin with, every neurosurgeon should encourage the patient, and maybe a close family member, to undertake psychotherapy before the procedure. There is something we call deep personality. Most people are aware of A and B personality types. Right, many years ago it was very popular, but this deep personality is not so well known.
Speaker 1:These are the distressed people, and if your patient falls under this distressed personality they are very likely to do badly after the procedure, after the surgery. So if you can identify these patients and help them with psychotherapy or with a psychiatrist if they need, they will do much better after surgery. So it's definitely possible to improve surgical outcomes with very simple techniques in therapy. Also, post-surgery depression is a real thing. You know it, I know it. But patients are not aware that it's all right to feel low, it's all right to feel like your emotions are out of control and that help is possible. So patients accept postpartum depression now is a real thing. But to know that any surgery, be it neurosurgery or orthopedic surgery, can lead to a certain depressive state, this knowledge itself, this awareness, can help patients deal with it better and seek help if they need to.
Speaker 2:That's really powerful. That's certainly given me something to think about. I always think there's more that we could do to prepare people for these major life events, and you've certainly given me some things to mull about. So I'm really grateful for your insights, as always, my friend.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm so glad we have this discussion. Dr Routh, I can't tell you how inspired and how energized I'm feeling having spoken to you. I mean, the world seems a little less ruthless with you around, isn't it, my goodness?
Speaker 2:There was no pun intended there. Oh sure. Well, I must say, as I said before, I feel so much better for being in a world where we can be connected to people across the distance, and I'm very grateful for you, and I think this is just a wonderful project that you're undertaking. These conversations are so rich. I'm really honored to be a part of it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much and thank you for taking the time. I know how difficult it is in your day and when you're rushing from pillar to post trying to finish your things. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me and to answer all these questions. I mean, I had so many questions buzzing around in my head and I just wanted to ask you all of it in this short little while. But I'm sure everybody is going to listen to this and at least feel that we can do something. Like you said, we can at least bear witness together, and there's this little bit that you've done today to awaken our consciousness across countries where you've probably just spoken all at once. So thank you for your time, thank you for your energy, thank you for being who you are and more power to you for everything that you want to take my absolute pleasure.
