Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Mr Carlyle McFarland
Discover the transformative power of holistic education with our esteemed guest, Mr. Carlyle McFarland—a veteran educationist with over four decades of experience. Get an insider's view of his incredible journey from the classrooms of postgraduate colleges to the helm of La Martiniere, Lucknow. Mr McFarland's passionate critique of the current academic system's fixation on marks and his unwavering belief in nurturing every facet of a child's development are both enlightening and inspiring. We'll explore how historically, institutions like La Martiniere have successfully integrated a variety of activities, from sports to meditation, to cultivate well-rounded individuals.
We confront the pressing issues plaguing today's education system, notably the shrinking attention spans of the current generation. Our conversation with Mr. McFarland reveals the urgent need for a new mindfulness that resonates with today's fast-paced world. We also delve into the evolving relationship between parents and educational institutions, stressing the importance of trust and collaboration. Mr McFarland shares his views on how schools play a crucial role in shaping a child's future and the necessity of supporting teachers with better pay and manageable workloads to ensure they can perform their roles effectively.
We discuss the critical need for early mental health intervention and the role teachers and administrators must play in recognizing and addressing negative behaviors. The importance of nurturing happy memories and integrating mental health programs within schools is also highlighted. Join us for a candid conversation that underscores the dynamic nature of education and the essential need for continuous adaptation and improvement.
Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, dr Kinjal Goel, a psychologist and a writer. Our guest today is Mr Carlisle McFarland, an esteemed educationist who has been at the helm of La Martinera, lucknow, for more than a decade. Welcome, sir, I'm so glad you're with me on Detangle today.
Speaker 2:It's a great pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 1:Sir, to begin with, you've been at the helm of India's leading school. Everyone knows you synonymously with La Martinia. But take us back in time. When and how did your career in education start?
Speaker 2:Well, I was at the helm of affairs at La Martina for a little over 13 years. Before that I worked for 27 years in one of the postgraduate colleges of Lucknow University, and so if you put the two together, that's about 40 years of formal teaching. How did I get into teaching? I always wanted to teach. I understand that as a child, even though I don't remember too much of it, I would sit up imaginary puppets and teach them about the rivers of India. So I presume teaching was always a first choice.
Speaker 1:How fantastic. It's very rare to see this nowadays. There was a time when children aspired to be teachers, and I hope it comes back, because one of the most beautiful ways to learn and to continue being a learner is to teach, so I hope more and more people are inspired to be teachers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds very idealistic, but unless you don't pay teachers appropriately and you don't pay teachers competitively, that's unlikely to happen.
Speaker 1:Well, that's true, I completely agree. So I've been going through some of your previous conversations, your interviews, and I love the fact that you don't like the term extracurriculars or even co-curricular activities, because you're placing more importance on a holistic education. Tell us more about this approach.
Speaker 2:Well, from time immemorial, children have been taught all skills.
Speaker 2:Now, skills is not just kinesthetic, what you do with your hands, or academic, what you are able to assimilate by the passing on of knowledge.
Speaker 2:But there is so much to each individual the spiritual, the emotional, the physical, and all these have always been taken together in traditional education. Let us keep in mind whether it was the gurukul system, where, despite some exploitation, there was the possibility of being able to get a child to bring out the best of all his abilities, or the Western form of education which has now translated into what we loosely call Anglo-Indian education today, the focus and the emphasis has always been on holistic education. In the last 30 or 40 years there has been this mad rush only for academic achievement, academic achievement by the means of marks. Now, these are most often fabricated, these are most often inflated, and if you test a little further, go a little further, you will find how boards of education will say that we are not giving a raw mark, that we are grading and standardizing marks according to the level of children. Unfortunately, this puts undue pressure on the child to perform academically and all the other aspects of the child's growth, unfortunately, are badly stunted.
Speaker 1:Right. So there is no simple way to say that academics or marks, or what is the weight that we should have on academics and marks?
Speaker 2:But once again you will excuse me. Once again you cannot put this into a scale and say that we give 50 percent for academics and 50 percent for other activities. An individual doesn't work that way. The fluids of the body don't work that way. The thoughts of the mind don't work that way. There has to be opportunity for all the different aspects and potential of a child to be well utilized.
Speaker 1:I've heard such wonderful stories of the changes that you have brought about in La Matine during your tenure there. Sir, Can you elaborate on some of these for me?
Speaker 2:Well, the changes were largely cosmetic. I have no, it's not a matter of being humble. It is in fact the truth. Education in an institution that is about 180 years old has been tried and tested. Most of the things that we now have in the newfangled education policy, or the NEP as it is referred to, were things that La Martina and other schools like La Martina were doing from the time that they were established were doing from the time that they were established.
Speaker 2:Whether it was sports, whether it was theater, whether it was public speaking, whether it was meditation, whether it was going for some religious service, depending upon the persuasion that you follow, all these things went hand in hand with academics, and even academics itself has changed gradually over the times. If we look at the college that I had, there even used to be scriptural study. Try doing that today and you'll be lynched. But think about it. You never had artificial intelligence being taught, even five years ago. You didn't have computers being taught. 20 years ago, you didn't have physics, chemistry and biology being divided into three separate subjects, say till the 1940s. So an institution evolves and I'm happy to have contributed to that evolution by looking at what is contemporary and never forgetting that it must be well blended with the mix of the past.
Speaker 1:Well, that's so beautifully put. So let me take the conversation towards mental health now. On the one hand, media, social media have helped raise awareness about mental health issues, especially among adolescents, teens, young adults. On the other hand, these same platforms seem to be aggravating the mental health crisis. What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2:I fully agree with you, the reason being that this technology is not tried and tested. We must keep in mind that even you and I were born into a generation where information technology was just in its nascent stage. Children whom we now educate in the age group that we have referred to, are born into this. It is their generation, it is their thing. We have somehow to be able to blend this new technology with creating. Let us never forget that this is the primary purpose of education the best individual that the individual can possibly be.
Speaker 2:So it's not a question of do we bring in laptops? Do we remove cell phones? Should media be brought into the classroom? Should media be banned? Should screen time be restricted? The rules for these things are still evolving. It is still too, too early for us to be able to say so. Let us keep in mind that even when the Bible was first printed, it was very, very restricted, because there was always a fear that what would happen if the common man who had just learned to read was able to read the scriptures? The technology of those times also took a considerable amount of time to be adjusted and adapted to the requirements of that age. I see a similar thing in children using laptops, in them using e-books. We keep complaining that children are not reading enough, not reading enough. If, however, they are being molded into good human beings, well, maybe our technology has to keep up with that.
Speaker 1:I think this brings us to the idea that we have a very myopic perspective Right now. We have a very small, short-term idea of what social media or technology is doing to us or might do to us. But, like you brought into perspective, over hundreds of thousands of years things have changed and maybe a thousand years down the line we look back at this time and say, ok, we fumbled, but we did find a footing. So well, that's quite promising.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are bound to evolve that way, and the natural course will have its own way.
Speaker 1:Right. So, sir, personally I find a long drawn book very, very meditative, you know, for the reader has to slowly get acquainted with the plot and the characters, and only then does the story reveal itself. Now, in this generation, I see that the attention span has been getting shorter and shorter, with most people not even watching reels fully anymore. Do you notice this attention span getting shorter? How do you think teenagers can go back to mindfulness or create a new mindfulness and live their life with intent?
Speaker 2:It is. I think the better thing is to create a new mindfulness. Understand that before we even had paper and writing implements, knowledge was passed on by word of mouth. The Vedas were written much after they were first composed. In the same way, why did one live in the Gurukul with the Guru? Because constantly you learned to chant and you learned your letters, as it were, in that way. Today, if this is the meditative people, according to the systems which catch attention today, there is no guarantee that long-term meditative practices is going to help a child be a better person. It just might make him a terrible bore, whereas something which is quick, flashy and which makes an impact is perhaps more likely to affect young people today. So we've got to be able to create those wow moments, rather than the very long drawn out moments of sudden revelation where chewing a green tea leaf brings sudden nirvana to the Buddha. I don't think that's going to happen in today's world.
Speaker 1:Lovely Coming to parents now, sir. Parents are changing with this evolving ecosystem of education. Parents are more aware and more involved, in some cases sometimes even more demanding. So how does this affect a school or a college setting, especially the faculty?
Speaker 2:This is hugely important because once again we find a contest between two different cultures. Parents of the children of this generation went through a particular type of schooling where you had to do science side, commerce side, arts side and stuff like that. There was also a pecking order. You had to have the best marks with those of children who were scientifically inclined, thereafter those who were interested in accountancy and mathematics and commerce, and the dreamers were always permitted to do the humanities. How much that is changing today.
Speaker 2:But we still have parents caught in a time warp. They will not allow their children to be able to explore their own horizons. Instead, it is being forced upon them a particular way of life. You have to be an engineer, you have to be a doctor, an engineer, you have to be a doctor.
Speaker 2:The thousands of people, the lakhs of people, who write these entrance tests, the kind of corruption which has now crept into these examinations for admission, etc. Are all indicative of the rat race to be able to get into what you think is a career that is the best, which, of course, is not going to bring you happiness. In fact, it's likely to give you an ulcer as you grow older, give you blood pressure, give you stress, give you anxiety, attacks and all the things which, unfortunately, I saw happening even in my school, where we focused so much on a holistic education. Parents are difficult. They love their children very much I'm sure every parent does but just as most children in India today are never planned but are just accidents, children in India today are never planned but are just accidents. In the same way, what you do with the education of that child is through trial and error, rather than leaving it to a professional to be able to guide you and to guide your child through the entire process that we call education.
Speaker 1:So what I'm hearing here is that parents should leave a little bit more in the hands of the educators, the teachers and the whole ecosystem of the school or college, because there is more experience and there is more intent of doing the right thing in that zone.
Speaker 2:That needs a little qualification. A parent cannot be a teacher and a teacher cannot be a mother or a father. They are two different roles. The two work in tandem, for the values of the home can only be taught by the home. When I say the values of the home, even the lack of values of a home will only be picked up in the home. That which a school is able to provide is based upon the culture of the institution, what the institution has always promoted, and you don't go according to the latest fad or the latest requirement or the latest marketing gimmick which schools are offering. For example and this is pan India you will have schools also advertising particular coachings for entrance examinations for select, very select careers. Have you sent your child to be able to follow a particular career? Have you sent your child to school? Or have you sent your child to school to be schooled? And if you've sent your child to be schooled, allow the school to fulfill its academic, its academic requirements, what it has promised you, what you know that it is rather famous for.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. So now moving towards the angle of teachers, teachers' mental health is just as important and at risk as the children who are studying under them. However, I notice more often than not they tend to live up to the role that they have been placed in, and they usually suffer in silence. Do you see this as well? How do you think schools and colleges can support their teachers better in this aspect?
Speaker 2:schools and colleges can support their teachers better in this aspect. First, the teacher has to be equitably paid. Unless you do not pay teachers well, you cannot expect them to work to their full potential. Having said that, I do agree that what we do is to buy teachers. Time, not teachers commitment. Commitment is not a commodity. Time is a commodity. So if you are engaging a person for a particular amount of time, requiring certain skills, requiring certain degrees, certain qualifications, etc. You've got to pay them equal to the kind of degrees which they work for. You've got to pay them according to what you think is the value of education, the monetary value of education in today's world. That's my first take on this. Secondly, teachers are often overworked. The number of children in classes is phenomenal. We are dealing, if we're talking about school level teaching, you're dealing with pre-adolescent, adolescent and a few post-adolescent kids. It's the most difficult time because there's nobody to help you.
Speaker 2:Teachers are expected to be my bap. Teachers are expected to be the very best in their subject. Teachers are expected to speak with fluency. Teachers, the expectations are countless. But how much do you pay them Accordingly? You must have those expectations.
Speaker 2:I'll give you an example. If a teacher comes dressed to school, with a button missing from his shirt or the hem of a sari slightly frayed? Out of the 45 children in a class, three are bound to notice and to judge. However, do you pay the teachers sufficiently enough to be able to be freshly turned out in the best of appearance, in the best of clothes? I'm not talking about high-end designer brands, but remember, when there's a family to support a family, a child's school uniform is more important to pay for than a new shirt merely because it will look better in front of the classroom.
Speaker 2:What I'm trying to say is that the expectations which we have are too high. You expect the teacher to be moral, to be well-dressed, to be fluent, to be educated, to be polished, to cater to parents more than to children, and so on. However, do you look after your teacher? That is what we also have to see. I'm referring even to more in inverted commas fancy schools like mine and others of maybe the same age, but what happens also in the tiniest of schools?
Speaker 2:It's completely exploitative and this definitely has to change. Parents expect and demand too much from teachers without knowing a fig of what a teacher's role or job is supposed to be, is supposed to be. Perhaps the worst are the helicopter mothers who will hover around the school. Hover around the child during break, hover around to see that he's drinking water, bribe the ayah in the classroom to see that the child is placed directly under a fan. These are things which happen and these are things that are disgusting. Let the child be. He's come to school, he's enjoying himself. If he is not adapting and adjusting to school, perhaps this school or that school needs to be changed.
Speaker 1:Right. So we need to bridge a gap that has been widening and ever widening, but nobody is doing the right small things to make sure that expectations and reality match. Simple things for mental health.
Speaker 2:Yes, I suppose in a nutshell, that's what it would be.
Speaker 1:Right, sir. Has there ever been any incident? I'm sure you've had many, but anything which stands out in your memory, which warmed your heart so much that all other adversities just faded away.
Speaker 2:That's a tough one, especially when you talk about warming the heart. In most cases, you don't look for your heart to be warmed. In most cases, it is doing your job and doing it as well as you can. Besides being a teacher, in the role in which I have been in the last one and a half decades, it's been more an administrator, and an administrator doesn't look for warming of heart. However, we are all human beings, are all human beings and, at the end of the day, to love and to be loved is obviously what we exist for, in part.
Speaker 2:When I was leaving school, retiring from school in our junior most dormitory, brought me his shoes, one of which was torn, and said keep this for me as a memory. Incidentally, it was the last incident in the school. I don't think there can be anything more heartwarming than that, even though, throughout the years 40 years even if you have one heartwarming experience in 365 days, that's 40 of them, and it's multiplied and multiplied and multiplied by the number of children whom you deal with. Because when you are into education, you're not dealing with a silly subject. The subject is just a peg on which to hang your thoughts. You're dealing with children and making a difference in the lives of children.
Speaker 2:Heartbreaking. There is just one. When one of my boys jumped from one of the highest points in the school, crashed down to his death and literally and I'm not saying this for dramatic or theatrical effect died in my arms, I could feel life ebb away from him. You can, in the modern times, understand the kind of media crucifixion which I personally went through, as well as the institution.
Speaker 2:The matter went right up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court eventually, after about six or seven years of various levels of investigation etc. Confirmed that the boy had been unwell and had unfortunately taken his life. It is not what happened in the media that troubled me, but how come that my colleagues and I, with a child who must have been in so much distress, was unable to reach out to him and provide him the kind of mental succor, mental sustenance, emotional assistance that was required. The story, of course, is far too long to condense into a few moments, but the takeaway from that is focus on your children, because even the best of us sometimes miss out the most glaring and the most obvious signs by which a child is calling out for attention and help.
Speaker 1:Well, I agree, because this is happening. This is happening everywhere, although I wouldn't say that every child might have left a sign, but yes, if we look closely enough, we as adults, we as teachers, we as caretakers and parents will be able to do a little bit more, and that might save a life someday. So thank you for sharing this with us. Somebody had taught you early on in your career something that you didn't have to learn the hard way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with hindsight, I will share with you an interesting observation. I was able to complete all qualifications which were required for postgraduate teaching in my 20s and I was part of a postgraduate college teaching literature in English for ever, so many years. I thought I would take a sabbatical and went on to do a BEd, followed immediately by an MEd, and it was so terrifically interesting because I was coming back to methods of teaching and learning the basics after having worked for two decades in lecturing at university level. Sitting in that classroom, I was unlike the other students, who were wonderful young people when I say unlike, because I was doing this in review rather than the others who were learning these intricacies for the first time.
Speaker 2:What I therefore wish to share on your program is that the formal system of teaching how to teach is tremendously important, should be taken seriously and, depending upon the exigencies of a school calendar, needs to be brushed up every now and then, even though it might seem repetitious. If we are able to break out of a mold that has been set 20 years ago and after 20 years, say, I have been teaching for 20 years, well, you might have been teaching the wrong thing for 20 years or teaching the wrong way for 20 years. Just because it's 20 years, it does not mean that it is right. Therefore, teachers also need to be constantly updated, upgraded or, if nothing else, reminded of what their entire system of disseminating knowledge requires of them.
Speaker 1:That's such a fresh perspective on rethinking on unlearning, relearning. So much in the same answer.
Speaker 2:I mean, let's think about it. Where did we have mobile phones and able to create links or an entire class being part of a WhatsApp group where you communicate? This was never taught to anybody in, say, a BEd, and I don't think it's even taught today, but this is the world into which children have been born. Let's make fullest use of it and actually engage with young people individually as well as in groups.
Speaker 1:Sounds good. I think a lot of schools have started this. Some people have found a footing. But yes, I agree with you, we can't expect teachers to know everything right away. As they learn, as they also evolve, it gets smoother and the going gets easier. As they also evolve, it gets smoother and the going gets easier. So over the years, you've seen this whole ecosystem of studying abroad changing. What is still driving this brain drain? How can we stop it?
Speaker 2:But in the first place. Should we stop it in the first place? Well, the brain drain. Maybe we need those brains sent down the drain.
Speaker 2:Let us keep in mind that studying abroad is for the richy rich. There is hardly a child who is able to make it exclusively on merit and with full scholarship. Studying abroad is very much a status symbol. How can we stop it? Do we need to stop it? Sometimes it is a good riddance. Secondly, why should we stop it? Why don't we make our systems good enough to be able to attract students from abroad to come to India?
Speaker 2:Regrettably, the students that come to India are those that choose India as a cheaper choice. Economies that are definitely lower on the scale than ours will be able to afford a higher education in India because it is affordable Within the country. We have fantastic institutions. We have children who do brilliantly in these institutions. Yes, foreign countries are able, because of their systems, to attract such children. I don't think it needs to be stopped, because if we are talking about a 24 hour world and if we are talking about a world and knowledge without boundaries and borders, well, wherever the child is, I am sure Bharat will always be close to the child's heart.
Speaker 1:Very well said. So, moving on to one of the questions which is the closest to my heart, something I ask all my podcast guests We've all heard of a physical first aid box, a box in which we keep our band-aids, antiseptics, painkillers, you know, for those small cuts and bruises. But if you were to have a mental first aid box personally, what would you like to keep in it? Something which would make you instantly happy, you know, for some of those days which have been emotionally run down.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to prick your bubble. Instant gratification is not a part of maturity. There will always be days when we are low. However, I fully agree that in the journey of life, happy memories are the best band-aid, happy memories which you can turn back to and which you can recall, whether it is through photographs, whether today through video, through recording and so much. We have so much more technology which is able to bring the past back to us Parents who are no more friends, who have moved on, people who are in different parts of the world.
Speaker 2:They live on in memories and therefore, for me, the nicest, simplest, easiest and most rewarding kind of solace that I get when such solace is needed is by focusing on a happy memory. Wordsworth put it very beautifully when he says when, oft upon my couch I lie in vacant or in pensive mood, day that is, memories flash upon the inward eye, which is the bliss of solitude. And of course the poem does go on, which is the bliss of solitude, and of course the poem does go on. So if there is a life which has been filled with happy experiences and that's why we must ensure that our children have that I think there is a lot to turn back to.
Speaker 1:How lovely my mental first aid box feels, so enlightened right now, with a little word, with a little memory. With a little memory. It's so much happening in everyone's life. I'm sure we all have this, some memory, which makes us feel happy.
Speaker 2:Every one of us. Every one of us.
Speaker 1:Sir, before I come to my closing remarks, I would like to leave the floor open to you. Is there any question you would like to ask me as a psychologist?
Speaker 2:you. Is there any question you would like to ask me as a psychologist? Yeah, why haven't you psychologists people, got together and actually created a movement to bombard schools with information, bombard schools with the need and sell yourselves as a trade because it's definitely going to make a happier and a better world? If we need teachers and we need accountants, we also need psychologists. Why are psychologists so very hidden away or seeming to be in these sort of ivory towers where we have to go to you rather than you come to us? I do hope that you will share this with your colleagues in other conferences and part of academia as well. We need you to be more proactive in what you are doing.
Speaker 1:So, to answer the question in the first part, sir, I myself have run something called the Adolescent Mental Health Program and the Teachers Mental Health Program across almost 22 schools. What I had started off doing is tapping into technology and doing small write ups which would then be sent to every teacher who is on board with that school, or every student, if it is for the students that school, or every student if it is for the students. My greatest difficulty was breaking down those doors or entering. I would knob all I wanted. Nobody wants to let an outsider in. Now a psychologist who is not on board on the official board of the school may not be allowed to come in and help.
Speaker 1:We've tried this as a group also with various schools that we do want to interact with, help with, not only monetarily but also as a social initiative. But most schools keep their you know their moats closed. I mean, the doors are closed. There is this whole setup which you cannot go into. I hope schools kind of put down their guard and at least allow outsiders to come in to help. I think that is one of the biggest challenges that the other side is facing. I'm glad you say that schools are in need and wish to get help, but I hope we can break down this barrier and somehow communicate better between the fields of education and psychology. I'm sure everybody will benefit through this.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it will, and there is some degree of enlightenment. But even a psychologist in a school is more a fashion statement. In the school which I have headed, we have kept our psychologists a little unknown. When I say a little unknown, it's not that there is some taboo attached with it, but we have found that it is most effective when you're dealing with the smallest of children. We would presume that children in full-blown adolescence will have well, a myriad of problems. But where does it start? It starts with anger issues in class one, a child being told no by a teacher. He's never been told no before and so he will smash a glass. So it's there where we've got to catch children, and it would be nice if people working in mental health just for the quality of life would be able to create programs and awareness that teachers and administrators are perhaps not even aware of.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm sure some synergy will come out of this conversation, as it usually does when we put our thoughts out there, they come back with some actions. So I'm so glad we've had this conversation and I'm so glad I've learned so much about your experiences, about your thoughts. My favorite line in our conversation was that subjects are the pegs that we hang our thoughts on. It was beautiful. I can visually see what you are thinking.
Speaker 2:I am with you in all the thoughts that you have collected over the years. But I'm so grateful, sir, that you took the time to share your thoughts, your experience, with my listeners, with me on Detangle. I'm so grateful for having you on the best with the very many different kinds of walks of life, people from walks of life that you are interviewing. We all have so much to learn from each other. Thank you very much for a very pleasant morning.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sir.
