Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Dr. Vardhaman Jain
Prepare to unravel the complexities of finance and tax with our distinguished guest, Dr. Vardhaman Jain, a celebrated chartered accountant from Pune, India. Dr. Jain takes us through his intriguing journey into finance, sharing how his affinity for numbers led him to a thriving career in the field. Together, we explore how money's role as a symbol of power and status complicates its societal perception, and dissect the nuances between tax evasion and tax avoidance amidst growing trends toward financial transparency and compliance.
This episode also sheds light on the intersection of creativity and financial literacy. We emphasize why mastering financial skills is just as crucial as investing in personal health and wellness. With a keen focus on the evolving role of women in financial management, particularly those who were previously excluded, we discuss how financial education can serve as a powerful tool for empowerment. Dr. Jain and I challenge the common hesitancy to seek financial expertise, advocating for the long-term benefits of financial literacy as part of holistic well-being.
Finally, we navigate the psychological and emotional dimensions of finance, revealing how fear and greed often drive financial decisions. Dr. Jain offers his wisdom on balancing stress and empathy in financial advising and the importance of maintaining emotional well-being amidst financial pressures. We wrap up with insights on building financial credibility through consistency and daily commitment, drawing parallels to maintaining physical health. This episode is packed with insights to inspire you toward informed financial decisions and emotional resilience on your financial journey.
Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, dr Kinjal Goel, a psychologist and a writer. Our guest today is the esteemed financial expert, dr Vardhaman Jain, a chartered accountant working in Pune, india. It's a true honor to have you with me on this episode, mr Jain. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much, I am delighted as much.
Speaker 1:So let's get started. Dr Jain, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your scope of work and your qualifications, please.
Speaker 2:Okay, as you said, I belong to Pune, born and brought up in Pune, qualified as a commerce graduate with my chartered accountancy, did my law thereafter and about a decade ago I got my PhD from the Pune University in the field of commerce. I practice as a chartered accountant traditionally in the field of taxes and audits. I take up litigation for tax litigation.
Speaker 1:The problem areas the problem areas yes, litigation for tax litigation. The problem areas. The problem areas, yes, you're true, interesting. So tell me, dr jain, why finance, why numbers? I mean, what took you towards this field? Was there any person, any incident that inspired you early on?
Speaker 2:oh, that should not be a long story, but it was more, uh, eliminational logic that I'm not cut out for sciences, and that time it was science or commerce Science is you take? Medicine or engineering and commerce, you take up whatever comes your way. Correct.
Speaker 2:So that is how we branched out into commerce but didn't know that we would get into chapter condensate and numbers. I think that's a part of the DNA Numbers and finance. But the trajectory was you went along and as you moved along you took up chapter 1c. Having done chapter 1c I realized that I have a flair for law, so I thought it will be a right combination to mix finance and law in my areas of practice this is very interesting because when I speak to the younger generation on my podcast, I find most of them wanting to establish what is their passion before they start working.
Speaker 1:But all the senior experts seem to have started working and then established their passion along the way.
Speaker 2:I think that is the better way. I agree, Though youngsters may say that we start off with the passion they may succeed too. But I feel, as you grow, as you evolve, you really realize where things interest you, what interests you.
Speaker 1:And the more you work in a field, the more interesting it becomes.
Speaker 2:The more interesting it becomes absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's a lovely angle. So let me ask you. Money comes in so many colors, and not just in currency, but even psychologically. It makes the world go round. Its presence is coveted, everybody wants it, yet it is at the center of controversy more often than not. What is it about money that makes it so complicated?
Speaker 2:Oh super. The absolute question, which I thought would always be the one with a finance expert. Traditionally, when we talk about money, we say money is a matter of functions for a medium, a measure, a standard, a store. That's how money is typically defined.
Speaker 1:Can I take you back in that? Can you say that again?
Speaker 2:Money is a matter of functions for a medium, a measure, a standard, a store. Wow.
Speaker 2:That is the typical connotation of the functions of money and you said it is complicated. It has become complicated, center of controversy. It's because maybe we have gone beyond these measures, these functions, and we have looked at money as a symbol of power, as a symbol of position, as a symbol of freedom, as a symbol of status in society, and therefore we have given money a share not higher position than your relationships, than the things around. That is where the complication starts very interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, I have spoken to so many doctors in medical fields before this and they always have this algorithm to explain disease, illness, health. I have never heard about money being spoken so objectively, so I'm already enjoying this conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, dr Jain, let's talk about taxes Now. In your experience, how common is it for people to divert more and more time and more and more resources in evading taxes and then getting into trouble later, and how do you think we can change this mindset?
Speaker 2:Wonderful Tax evasion. Well, basically, first we should realize that there are two different terms tax evasion and tax avoidance. What is the difference, you may ask me. Both save taxes. Right.
Speaker 2:Typically, it has been said that the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of the prison walls. Okay, avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of the prison walls okay, evasion is illegal. Avoidance is working within the framework to save taxes, okay. So, yes, saving taxes, you need to. You would plan out as a financial wizard. As a tax wizard, you would want to work within the framework of law and save taxes. That's tax avoidance. Tax evasion is something which you, where you are due to be paid to the government and you don't want to pay, and you adopt ways and means to avoid.
Speaker 1:Illegal means basically Illegal means.
Speaker 2:So that is tax evasion. There was a time when people said that the most imaginary fiction written is the income tax return filed by an individual.
Speaker 1:Fabulous.
Speaker 2:I love the way this is going. So, which would mean that all what was put into the return that's, the annual filing that you do with the income tax department for taxes is something of a fiction. So it's not real. That means it was so much of evasion there, when the real is not coming out.
Speaker 2:But times have changed, people have changed, the thoughts have changed and the kind of monitoring that is there has changed. So the mindset has moved from one of tax evasion to working within the frame of law largely. And one more important thing that has happened is that the penalties are severe. The chances of getting caught are stronger. Having realized this, people say let's work within the framework. So yes, there is a change. I don't think we need to do any extra education in terms of one needs to know that if you are on the road and if you have to keep left, you have to keep left. There is, this is the law. Now you need to drive, you don't have to do anything beyond that. You would learn over a period. So teaching, no understanding, they have already got that.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you are saying there is a shift, but it is in the right direction it is a shift in the right direction the younger generation it took 40 years of practice.
Speaker 2:I found that in the younger generation they are not keen to spend time on trying finding out ways and means to avoid.
Speaker 2:I think the digitalization of finances Big time, big time Digitalization and the harmonious working between the various arms of the government, like even in, for that matter, in taxes. You have GST and you have income tax. There was a time decades ago, when both never worked hand in hand. Today, transfer is so easy, so all what you do at one side is already logged in at the other. People have realized this and therefore they would love to work. Taxes are necessarily evil, as they said, and you pay them for civilization. It was typically said yeah, and you pay them for civilization. It was typically said. Now, people have understood it's going to be a partnership between the government and you.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. So, on the one hand, where we see crimes in different zones rising, we see the crimes in financial fraud reducing. On a personal level, I would.
Speaker 2:Financial fraud is something else, tax evasion is something else Right Tax evasion in a fraudulent manner. Correct that. I don't think you will find that tax evasion per se is happening. It may happen because there are other areas where they want to be compliant or non-compliant, leading to a tax evasion.
Speaker 1:Correct. So a whole lot of layers coming together, not really the prime thing. Thing this is very heartwarming to know. We're on the right path. So how important, according to his financial literacy for youngsters as they embark on their careers now. So most people in creative fields prefers to stay away from numbers and say this is something I don't understand, but do you think they will need it at some point, and what are your thoughts on educating an entire generation in finance?
Speaker 2:Oh lovely. There are too many questions within that one question, but I will take them one by one. One is about educating the youngsters in the field of finance and tax and allied things. Typically, if you have to look at money and numbers, it is earning, spending, saving, investing and giving. Right. If all these five are properly kept in view, I think your work in the world of finance is done. Okay.
Speaker 2:No earnings, no savings Cause for financial worries. I simply said that the difference between mankind and animals is financial worries they don't have, we have. So if you don't have earnings and don't have savings, you are into financial worries. Spending Spending earning the income and spending after the income has been earned are two different things. People goof up in understanding that what I spend to earn is a necessary requirement. The income has been earned are two different things.
Speaker 2:People goof up in understanding that what I spend to earn is a necessary requirement, indispensable, but after having earned, after spending what was required for earning, whatever remains there. When you spend, whether you are splurging or you are spending the way it should be spent and saving enough, spending the way it should be spent and saving enough, and then saving that to investing to get passive income because you operate Correct, but your operations will have a limitation.
Speaker 2:Your investing will give you the passive income to supplement your operating income. That is where we need to know, and the last thing I think any individual would need to know is that ultimately it's about giving back. It is giving where you get your purpose in life, so to say. So all this has to be inculcated into the individual right from day one. It is done in many ways, but there could be a formal kind of education of the youngsters to do that. That's part one for the youngsters. Yes, you had something.
Speaker 1:So this sounds like a perfect algorithm in the youngsters' language. Like Instagram or anything. Were to work on an algorithm where something works if something else works. This is a simple algorithm Stay within the matrix, don't glitch it and things will be all right, correct.
Speaker 2:Wonderful Going ahead. You talked about the creative field. It's a typical thought that a creative person has. I'm a poet myself. I know that when I sit down to writing as an author or as a poet and that largely plays upon my own working in finance that money is not really the thing that should be there. That's the kind of thought you begin with, but ultimately money makes the man go. Even a creative writer needs to work for his day-to-day. Only creative writing and creative work and no earnings would not work. So that basic, fundamental understanding of money and finances is necessary for each and all of us. Somebody very beautifully said that money is required in as much as oxygen is required in the kind of wanted list. True. So if that is the kind of equation, then whether you are in the creative field or not, money understanding has to be there. The money mindset has to be there.
Speaker 1:So this draws a parallel with psychology. Like people ask me, why do you have somebody from so-and-so field? And I always tell them psychology is at play everywhere, Whether you're in the creative field, financial field medical field.
Speaker 2:Absolutely very true.
Speaker 1:Performing field. So, similarly, money is everywhere, everywhere. You can't have a field without money, and if you have it, it's not sustainable. You can't have a field without money, and if you have it, it's not sustainable. Beautiful, tell me, dr Jain. For women, let's say, in their 40s. It's very common for our generation to not have dabbled in money early on. There is no focus on financial health.
Speaker 1:There is no focus on financial angles within the family, but a lot of women are now waking up to this and they want to attain some kind of financial literacy. Are there any short courses you recommend, or is there a way that women can now start learning?
Speaker 2:There are two parts to this. I think it's a beautiful question. We had a generation where the husband would be the learning member and the lady in the house was supposed to look after the house and nothing beyond. But you would know that even those ladies who did only this knew what is budgeting.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, they didn't know the technicals, but they knew what was budgeting.
Speaker 2:They knew what was saving. They knew what was compounding In their own. They didn't know the phrases but they knew all this. Maybe they didn't know the technical. The husband should be dabbling in businesses and the wife would be completely unaware. In my professional practice I have had ladies senior ladies come back saying that oh, my husband was into one, two, three, four and I don't know a thing about it yeah.
Speaker 2:And he's no more, and now I really don't know where to begin Now. For those ladies, it is essential that they have a kind of template ready about what my husband does. What are my assets? What are my liabilities? What is that money that I have to give him? What is the money that I have to get? What is the money I have? Right.
Speaker 2:It's so essential for them to know this. That is for the senior ladies, but the younger generation, I feel, are more aware about the fact that we need to know something about money. We need to know the debits and credits and using technical jobs, but they have a fair understanding. Do we require a course? A short term it's not really a course. Even the basics two, three sittings with a financial expert would help educate the person who's not directly involved into finances to know what has to be done. So I think that should be good enough. If you ask me courses, I really have not looked at what kind of courses are available as short term courses, but I'm sure there are I'm sure there would be because I've noticed a lot of fear.
Speaker 1:I mean, if I talk about the psychology of money, there's a lot of fear about numbers for a person who is not aware of how these numbers work. Or I mean, I have seen women unable to sign a check because they didn't know where the comma would go. These are basic things, these are simple things, but if you're not used to it, it's like using your muscles right, you don't use it, you lose it. So they haven't flexed their financial muscles at all.
Speaker 2:So, when it comes down to it, they can't do it, I agree, but that is changing. So, again, we are on the right path and the younger generation is fairly conversant. I don't I wouldn't say that they are absolutely right on the mark, but they are fairly conversant with all these things. There used to be a time when writing a check, getting a bank draft, etc. Etc. They would go paranoid. That's not the position today.
Speaker 1:Lovely. Now let me ask you something which I find very intriguing. I see people who are willing to pay for personal trainers. They'll pay for personal nutritionists, they'll pay for the most expensive medical care, but they will find it a waste of resources to find somebody and pay them if they're an expert in finances, because this is your financial health but they think they can do it all by themselves and there is no real expertise required. Now, does this harm a person's company, a person's company's financial health in the long term? Short term, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Let me answer the first question. First. We said we pay for personal trainers elsewhere, but when it comes to finances, we don't. Is it a fact? Yes, yes, it is a fact. Why is it that this works? And maybe psychology would tell us better. The moment I start earning, I start feeling that I know numbers, I know finances. Right. And you would find this trait all through all start-up society. Yes.
Speaker 2:A person who made it big may have made it big in terms of earnings, but doesn't necessarily mean that he understands finances the way he should understand Correct and the failures in business that you see. After having earned millions, you are back down where you were at the beginning. That's because an understanding of the numbers is not there Okay.
Speaker 2:So earnings is not equal to being savvy in finance. Therefore, personal trainer is essential, but it is not taken because I think I am earning, so I don't need a personal trainer. Consultant. Does it arm your businesses Big time, big time? The dimensions that a financial expert can give to your working would add definite hue and colour to what you are doing. And in fact, among the high net worth individuals, the HNIs, now there is a kind of position that they have somebody who is there to support them, to guide them and to look after the numbers and returns. So is there a trend of having somebody? Yes, from the middle class and the lower middle class. There is no question of a personal trainer as yet.
Speaker 1:So, if we draw an analogy, if you go to the gym and you think you know your set, you can do it all by yourself and you fire your personal trainer, your risk of injury increases. Similarly, financial injuries would be higher.
Speaker 2:Now, to give you an example you borrow money In businesses. You borrow, it's a part of the business. But how much of debt leveraging should you do Is somewhere the financial expert can come to you Just because money is available in plenty in terms of borrowings. Do you borrow, do you take up a project, just because money is down there available?
Speaker 2:So these kind of decisions where what is the risk reward Right long term risk, short term understanding All that understanding can come from a financial acumen, of a financial expert, and that third person giving you the inputs is much different because he's emotionally disconnected from your ideas correct.
Speaker 1:I think it's that detachment and the distance which gives them the larger picture that's right, that's right fantastic. Let's talk about the psychology of money. Finally, we're down to the zone that we wanted to be in. You've been in this field, dr jain, for decades now. What changes do you see in the way people perceive and handle their money? Okay, wonderful.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can begin off the journey from 80s to more than 40 years, something that is permanent. We should know first that fear and greed are a constant. Unfortunately, unfortunately, fear and greed are a constant thing that does not change. The other thing that does not change in taking any decision is your risk, reward and liquidity more the risk, more the rewards, less the risk, less the rewards. And both these parameters are tagged up with the kind of liquidity you need to enjoy. So these are permanent. These don't change with times. What would change with times is the way you look at it. There was a time when people looked at savings. Now people look at spendings. It's a different mindset the way people are spending.
Speaker 1:Money is so different.
Speaker 2:Words. Splurging is not a wrong word when you see things happening. And don't mistake the position that an individual who's rich only splurges. Hmm, a person rolling in millions would splurge that kind of money. A person who's in his thousands and lakhs would splurge even in his thousands and lakhs would splurge even in those thousands and lakhs. So splurging is there.
Speaker 2:Secondly is speculation and investing. People would invest. Now the urge to speculate is a little bit higher. Okay, maybe it is the digital awareness, the kind of awareness that is there and therefore the readiness to do. In fact, if you see so many of the cases of suicidal deaths and if you hunt down to the poor, where it went wrong besides relationships which I don't want to talk about, it has been bad handling of finances, more of speculation without any idea of what's happening. So that is an area where we need to attend to, and the use of plastic money, digital currency when you spend, when you put your hands into your pocket and take out a hundred, you know, is way different from swiping your card, true?
Speaker 1:So I heard this fantastic thing on a podcast recently where they say that when I'm paying with gpay or google pay, I feel like google is paying, so you don't feel like your own money is going.
Speaker 2:You do it so easily so so very true, yeah, that therefore our seniors, who traditionally does no use of plastic, no plastic money now I should say no digital currency or the cloud money so if you have to put that, it's very difficult to make it tangible you don't realize, you don't feel the pinch you don't feel the pinch and if I talk about psychology, you don't even have that kind of gratification that retail therapy gets you.
Speaker 1:So it has been studied that if you're giving a wad of cash, that you have counted and you have paid for something and you have received a box in return, there is a certain retail therapy which has happened. You have that little some little rush of joy.
Speaker 1:But now what is happening is you're shopping online with money that you can't see for products which you haven't received yet. So when you need that rush of dopamine or that, feel good, it's going to come later. But you've spent the money now which you can't see. So it's become quite complicated Very true. So tell me, if money was like a physical help, what would you say is the most harmful practice that people should stay away from?
Speaker 2:Two, three things. One I said be more careful when you handle plastic money, when you handle digital currency. Like you rightly said, that awareness is not there, that pinch is not there. So handling digital currency, swiping a card, becomes so easy without having realized what you are doing. It's only when you realize, when, on the 15th of the next month, you have the bill coming in and you realize that the money in the bank is not enough. So there, a little care is one thing. Second is funding is available so easily.
Speaker 2:So availing of debt, one has to be careful, just of debt. One has to be careful Just because funds are available. I don't need to buy a house Just because funds are available. I don't need to buy a car Just because funds are available. I don't need to go for a foreign claim. And these days, everything is funded, everything is funded, so you pay tomorrow, but you don't realize that something which is not required has been done. So if I have to give one thought, is that more care and caution in using digital currency and more care and caution in availing of debt.
Speaker 1:I'm just so intrigued by this thought because it takes me to this whole geopolitical scene right now, where countries are doing this to each other. They're offering funds that other countries are taking it up, not realizing that this has to be returned, and entire governments are collapsing because of this, because they're not understanding that this is not a free lunch.
Speaker 2:True, In fact, not that we are discussing politics, geopolitics, but the Belt and Road Initiative of China was said to be a debt trap set by the Chinese countries to avail of the funds that they would give as a part of their Belt and Road Initiative. Put you into debt.
Speaker 1:It's so fascinating really. On a more personal note, what has been the greatest challenge that you have faced personally in this field of work?
Speaker 2:I think not a personal challenge, but it is a challenge that I have seen among the client base. One is not being able to draw what is enough in terms of money. Where do I draw the line? What is the goal? Is money the goal or is money only the instrument to the goal? Now, that's a very challenging thing for any individual who is going red guns. For him, money is the thing that I have to do. Why so? Not knowing where to draw the line is a challenge which people have faced and which I've seen happening over the years. Biggest challenge is not knowing when to draw the line, when to say it is enough.
Speaker 1:Fabulous. And what about the stress? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of stress in your field when it comes to dealing with somebody else's finances. I'm sure you've seen people take a hit. Even if you have given them the right advice, they haven't taken it. So you feel other people's pain also and the empathy in you will make you feel the pain. How do you deal with this kind of stress?
Speaker 2:now, that is a personal question. Yes, so do you? Do you get impacted by these happenings in the life of your clients? In terms of finances, yes, you do. What can you offer? Only sympathies, nothing beyond that. But reminding each of them and using these examples for the others is a job that you do, and this is quite offset by cases where they have averted disaster because of your advice. So in a way, it balances out that you have at times seen things going wrong for a person and you have cases where your advice made all the difference. Kind of balances out.
Speaker 2:But the important thing that I have taken back home is that when I have done with my consulting, done with my work, I don't need to carry this home Very important. I don't need to carry this home Very important. I don't need to carry this home, and that's where my interest in poetry and my interest in writing come out, which kind of take you away from the world of numbers and into the creative world where you forget all what has happened in the office Beautiful.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this now If you had to give some advice to your 12-year-old self, yeah, I have two, not one two.
Speaker 2:I have realized it myself that the decisions you take of investments say in your 20s. If I were to be back into my 20s now, having realized 40 years later what is the position I would say in my 20s, I should not have thought of the EMIs at the age of 20. I had two or three decades to go for whatever decisions I took in terms of investments.
Speaker 2:So largely people tend to think about their present situation in deciding what their investment should be, whereas you are going to work, you are going to make money, money is going to flow. That's in the realm of the future. I should take those decisions with that realm of the future kept into practice. That is one. Secondly is in taking risks. Normally, as a 20 year old, you have your elder brother, elder sister, father, parents, whoever, uncle, telling you no, not this, not this, not that this is too risky. Now we forget that he is in his 60s, you are in your 20s, your risk appetite is far higher, can be far higher. So you could take risks which, uh, normally your parents or your seniors said don't take, because all the risks that you take, all the hits that you take, you still have time to go fabulous.
Speaker 1:So you would do a lot of things differently, but you would also tell yourself don't be so cautious, play a little more yes, right, yes super. How often do you see people take bad financial decisions based on some emotional, emotional turmoil at home or at work? Do you think people need to be safeguarded from this? So let's say there's a bad relationship at home and are they more likely to make bad decisions in See?
Speaker 2:this is a typical thing. People know that I have to take care of my physical health. I have to take care of my financial health. There is a sort of people who understand that physical health is important. Financial health is important. There are very few who work on it. Both, both. Each one is aware that, yes, I need to be physically fit so many of us.
Speaker 2:True, both. Each one is aware that, yes, I need to be physically fit, so many of us. True, there is a small class which definitely puts in effort. Same is the case with friends. If that realization is there that I need to take care, I understand and I put work on it. Then decisions taken when there is an emotional turmoil, he would also know that these have to be different. It's like typically saying that you get a say, for example, you get an email, which is a nasty one, from any of your colleagues, friends, clients, whoever associates. What do you do the moment you read? Do you sit back on the keyboard and do you reply immediately, or do you spend some time before you respond when you're emotionally charged up? I think that is one advice that I want to give you that when you're emotionally charged up, keep it for another day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so don't make any promises.
Speaker 2:Don't make any decision that day, because financial decisions should be a little set away from the emotional turmoil.
Speaker 2:It's okay. If somebody asks you you're celebrating your birthday and somebody says today we need to party, that's a very small decision. I don't say don't. Your rush of emotion should not allow you to take that decision too and wait for another day, that's okay. But major financial decisions when you take and what's a bad financial decision? A bad deal meaning a bad outflow, a bad investment. Either way, these can be deferred for a day when you are more composed, and these are times where you talk to the personal consultant.
Speaker 2:Correct, so these are times where you should go there and share your issues at that point of time. True.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you a question that I ask all my podcast guests. This is my favorite question on the show.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell me.
Speaker 1:We all know a physical first aid box, right, something which has band-aids and painkillers For those minor cuts and bruises where you can deal with it. But you need a little taking care of. Sure, what if you had an emotional first aid box where you could put things which would make you happy after a bad day? What would you put in a box like this for yourself?
Speaker 2:okay. So, uh, this is nothing to with finances. No, this is nothing to do with my personal yes, your personal, emotional, on the physical level, I think on the physical part, mental, I'll talk physical first aid box physical is done and set aside. So mental first aid box, I know, is what are the issues that raise a problem? I have a bad event which I have to go through. I have a bad individual, a bad individual, an individual who has not worked well with. I have to interact with him. Okay.
Speaker 2:For the first one, I need to know that this too shall pass. True, this will go away. Today, it's an event, it will pass. If it's a bad individual, I need to understand and I think I have done that big time is that he's having a bad day. I need not spoil my frame because of his bad day with the person. And the third set of wishes is memories, because ultimately, you are hit by either the event or the person, or the memories of those events and wishes. So for the memories, I would want to say let go, it is.
Speaker 1:Or keep the nice ones, huh, or keep the nice ones. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:No, but the unfortunate part. When we say that keep the nice ones, then you, as a practitioner in the field of psychology, would understand that we tend to keep the good memories in the pen trial and the bad memories in the art. Absolutely. So it's very difficult to say that keep the good ones. You tend to keep the bad ones and rewind and play them again.
Speaker 1:So maybe you could actually have a mental first aid box and put some good memories in it which you could access easily. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:How wonderful, very true.
Speaker 1:So your box is metaphysical, it is physical, it is all in one, and it just makes me so happy to see it. Before we come to a close, I leave the floor open to you. Is there any?
Speaker 2:question you would like to ask me as a psychologist. Yes, you spoke about psychology of money, you spoke about so many emotional areas where things could go wrong in terms of finances, and you must have had people coming to you. In terms of psychology, what, as a practitioner of psychology, would you tell a person two kinds of characters, one who is running a, who is on a high in so far as the finances concern, and one who is down and out almost in terms of finances. When they come to you, what do I look forward to now? How do I take it? And for the first one, there's no end to that. I am the person.
Speaker 1:So that person will not come to me in a happy zone. But you'll be surprised at how difficult it is for a successful person to seek emotional help absolutely because the world tells them.
Speaker 1:What are you upset about? What is making you sad? You have everything and more, but, like you very rightly said, money is not the goal. It is the way to achieve a goal, which is what they have not identified yet, and so when they have anything, it could be clinical depression. For that matter, I've had patients who are clinically depressed, who have so much money that they would buy anything from it, but you can't buy that emotional health. And they have to first face this backlash from society, from friends. How ungrateful are you that you have everything and you're still complaining? So they have to address one more taboo before they can address their emotional health? It is quite sad. And when it comes to somebody who has nothing, again like you very rightly said, money makes the world go round. So I can't tell somebody who is struggling extremely you know like really badly financially that it's all okay. Get up, smile, face the sunlight and you will be okay. You have to understand that a person who has no financial backup, everything gets harder for them.
Speaker 1:Right medical care gets harder for them, children's education gets harder for them so their emotional health will take a hit which is bigger than somebody who has something to cover, at least these things. So they have to be dealt with very differently how many of you?
Speaker 2:one more question, I think sure, go ahead. There have been so many statements which are made which give you an emotional high that oh, money is not the key to happiness, typically said. But if you have enough you can get a key made.
Speaker 1:Or statements like these take you away from the reality true, and I have spent years now looking for this happiness quotient in my patients and all the people I meet, because this is my resource. This is my greatest resource that I get to meet people from different age groups and working in different fields of life very good, and unless somebody has a higher purpose and is giving back appropriately, they don't find joy.
Speaker 1:there are people who are extremely comfortable financially or have a moderate earning, but they feel better and they live better because they're giving back according to the money that they're making and they're associated with something which makes them feel like part of a larger purpose. It could be a social cause. It could be helping somebody within the house, anything which takes them beyond just their little self.
Speaker 2:So that giving dimension has to be there. Somebody beautifully said money is like manual you have to spread it around other such meaning wonderful.
Speaker 1:And if you have more than enough, don't build higher walls. Build larger tables wonderful so bring people in and it does enrich you.
Speaker 1:I mean, it does enrich you in so many ways beautiful, beautifully so fantastic, I think, dr jen, I didn't expect money to be so beautifully set in the minds of an expert. For me, money has always been something that you have to be wary of, something that you have to take care of and something that you need to look at very with a little respect. But from what I understand in our conversation, there are so many algorithms that are set that we don't look at. If only we could break it down into these small pieces and handle each one with care. We're all set and sorted. It's not such a big deal. It's not such a complicated deal. But again, like you very rightly said, unless you work out every day, you're not going to get the body of your dreams.
Speaker 2:Unless you take care of your financial health every single day, it's not going to happen overnight and one thing that has to be kept quite I think that should go, as a message is and which we, as in the world of finance, understand very deeply is you have to build credibility. True, that is one aspect of your money making or not making that you build credibility, which is not bought in a day which is not bought in a day. That is something which each one of us needs to work on.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for all these pearls of wisdom. It has been wonderful. I'm sure a lot of people will benefit when they listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. Thanks.
