Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Anjul Bhandari
A hand-embroidered garment that takes two years to complete. A 70-year-old artisan who walks eight kilometers every Saturday, arriving exactly at 4pm to deliver his work. A designer who refuses to stock small sizes because she believes fashion should celebrate real bodies. Welcome to the revolutionary world of Anjul Bhandari.
The "reigning queen of all things Lucknowi “ doesn't just create exquisite Chikankari embroidery – she's reimagined what luxury fashion can be through a business model that puts artisans first in every decision. Unlike most designers who negotiate prices down, Anjul maintains a strict "no rejection policy" where whatever price an artisan quotes for their work is what they receive, without question. This commitment to fair compensation directly impacts her pricing, but she makes no apologies.
Her dedication extends beyond fair pay. Anjul Bhandari intentionally works with craftspeople over 60 years old, particularly men practicing Kamdani embroidery, recognizing these master artisans are often marginalized once they age despite their irreplaceable knowledge. She celebrates body diversity by starting her sizes at medium and extending to XL, challenging fashion's obsession with unrealistic proportions. "Why can't a woman look beautiful in a size medium? I don't understand."
Most revolutionary is Anjul’s perspective on sustainability. She argues Indians have always practiced sustainability by treating textiles as heirlooms passed through generations. "We want to make sure that the world follows us and we do not follow the world," she states, inverting the narrative that sustainability is a Western concept being taught to emerging markets.
In an age where AI and mass production dominate, Anjul reminds us that true luxury comes from human connection – between maker and material, between artisan and designer, between garment and wearer. Her collections, with names suggested by the artisans themselves, represent a radical reimagining of fashion's future by honoring its deepest traditions.
Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, dr Kinjal Goel, a psychologist and a writer. Our guest today is a quintessential Indian designer who seamlessly blends beauty and luxury. Anjul Bhandari, the reigning queen of all things Lucknavi, is here with us today. Quiet luxury defines her brand and I can't wait to explore her process. Oh and yes, we have a super rapid fire at the end of the episode, so stay tuned till the very end. Welcome to Detangle, anjul. So good to have you with me today. Thank you so much, kindle, for having me over. It's an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1:Well, anjul, to begin with, let us orient the audience a little bit with your scope of work. Tell us about your brand, its inception and its current status, please. So the scope of work is very simple. I love the designing bit, I love the artisans and I love creating different things when it comes to all things Lucknow. So, as a brand, we only work with anything and everything around Lucknow. So it's basically chicken, kamdani and zardoz. Out of the three, the two are GI tagged by the government of India. So that is where the brand started and that is where the brand is, and today, by the grace of God. It's absolutely a brand which is giving the society the best chicken curry which can be available for luxury. The society the best chicken curry which can be available for luxury. How beautiful, I think. I've seen your work firsthand and I can completely vouch for it. It's quiet but it's still lux, so it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Thank you, tell me, anjali, what segment of your work do you enjoy the most? As a designer, you have to design, but as a business owner, you also have to handle the business end. So what part do you enjoy? For me, the designing is the most important part, because that's where you come in complete contact to reality. For me, that's the most important part. And yes, as you rightly said, running the business is. I mean, it just doesn't work. I'll be very fair, it's not something. If I don't get the money in, how am I supposed to be supporting my artisans? So that's also a very important part of the business to you know, have the money in, but that somewhere I feel can be done by the professionals. So for me, the designing and being in touch with the ground level is the most important part, true? So tell me what makes Lucknowil work so precious to you?
Speaker 1:It's such a huge commitment to stick to a certain style of design and yet be fresh enough for customers to find you relevant. How do you balance this? Today? Take out a capsule collection where chicken curry is in. Next day, the Parsi will come in. Third day, a Patan will come in. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:I have to keep myself and my artisans relevant twice a year by giving people something new every six months and keep ourselves relevant and keep the craft relevant. So it's a really tough job to do and it's a huge commitment for me towards my artisans because for them it's their bread and butter and it's a women enterprise supporting only the women artisans. So if you, if just to give you a brief idea of how this industry runs and how this cottage runs, is very simple and straight. A work from home concept only came in during Corona, but for Chitra Kari, it has been there for thousands of years. The women come over, they pick up the pieces from us and they take them home. They may embroider it for six months, eight months, 10 months, 12 months and sometimes even two years. They keep getting paid over the time every month, but the piece may come back to us over two years because they carry it home and they keep doing it in their free time. So they are still running their daily jobs and doing their daily courses, running their houses and doing everything possible and still, in their free time, getting this money doing the craft. So this commitment has to stay somewhere down the line.
Speaker 1:So that is why, for me, it's harder to keep creating something new, but then that challenge is something that gets you going and I have to make sure that I stay relevant to everybody. So we started with the traditional chicken curry and, if you see, today we have upgraded ourselves to making sure that even an international client can walk in and buy a shirt from us, or even buy a cape from us or, for all you know, a shawl. So we have to keep innovating. That's the whole idea. Wonderful, and in this world of fast fashion especially, you know like brands like Zara, h&m now Shine. They're all teaching youngsters that fashion is expendable and should be easily discarded.
Speaker 1:But how do you see the younger generation warming up to this level of heritage luxury? How do you see the younger generation warming up to this level of heritage luxury? So, kinjal, I am a huge fan of our traditional way the things were done when the world is working towards sustainability and if we talk about discard, it's not something I resonate with at all. We, as Indians, have always been the most sustainable people in the world. If you remember, in old times, when we got married, or when our mothers got married, the saree a Kanjivaram saree meant that she's going to be buying it in her wedding trousseau and it's going to carry on for the rest of her life and she's going to pass it down to her daughter or her daughter-in-law. That's the sustainability we come from alone. That's the sustainability we come from.
Speaker 1:Why should we look at doing this fast discard fashion when the world is moving towards sustainability? We don't want to go back, we want to move forward. We want to make sure that the world follows us and we do not follow the world. So for me, how much ever a Zara and a H&M and a Shane may mean to anybody as a youngster, somewhere down the line, they have that thoughtfulness because the upbringing is such that they will, towards their big day or somewhere down the line, think no, heritage is something which we have to, you know, keep safe and we have to work towards and we have to make sure and by, you know, teaching the people and telling them that how the craftsmen can live alive and they can make their money by not fast fashion, but by luxury which is created over by hand, in which they're putting their soul into, is something which is we really need to work on that and we really want to make that sure that at one point of time, how much ever you may do a discard fashion, but somewhere down the line, when you talk about lux and luxury, it has to be your own traditional roots which you need to go back to. True, and I think in this new age of AI, we are also understanding that everything which is handmade, everything which is manmade this is true luxury. Absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 1:Lovely Anjali, your color palette is so delicate. These are all delicate pastels, subtle shades and soft luxury. Is there a certain niche of clientele that resonates with this vibe, or is it spreading to new customers constantly? It's actually both, because we make sure that we give the right quality and the right product to the client. Hence, that whole idea of coming back of the client is beautiful, and people like to do this Because you know chicken curry being such a pristine craft.
Speaker 1:So if you look at it earlier, it was only done white on white in the time of Nawaz Then, because it was done on muslin and it was done on, you know, the soft fabrics and it was resonated by wearing only in summer. So hence the pastels came in. So chikungari was branded as something which you would wear during the summer, which is actually not true today. The fabrics which we use, the kind of embroideries which we use, and obviously the color doesn't have a bias towards the embroidery you do, the color is happy to take any embroidery in their own arms. It's somewhere in our own head that we say but yes, somewhere down the line, the pastels do look beautiful when it comes to chicken curry, because the sheer it is, the lighter it is, the more beautiful it looks. But keeping that in mind, somewhere down the line we even tried doing a red, which was a beautiful, huge success. Oh wow, it was a capsule which we did of just 22 pieces and we sold out in one month Super no pieces left because nobody had ever tried doing it. And it sold beautifully. And trust me, kinjal, I have never seen chicken look so beautiful. How nice. Thank you, anjali.
Speaker 1:Someone once told me you should either earn money doing what you love or spend money doing what you love. What do you love to do apart from work? What hobbies are the closest to your heart? I love doing both. I just love doing both the time when I'm not in Lucknow and not doing chicken curry. I love to travel and love to spend my money and learn more. That's the most important. The more you travel. I guess Once my mother had told me, the more more you travel, the more you learn is a very simple mantra the more people you meet, the more you learn, the more you're grounded, the more you learn. True, it's very simple. I love to spend my money on travel and shopping as a woman, oh nice.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you about the online marketplace now. It seems like a dual-edged sword. You get the perfect space to showcase your designs to prospective customers far and wide, but also you're always at risk of being copied. How do you feel when your designs are literally stolen online and how do you protect your IP? I so agree with this. I cannot agree more. I so agree with this. I cannot agree more. But yes, it's, as you rightly said, the dual ed sport. As much as you want to protect your designs, but then that's the only medium where you can spread it worldwide as well, doing lux and I'm doing, you know, luxury couture. So I want the people to come in, have the touch feel of the piece and then buy and then must know what they are putting their money on. But at the same time, a person sitting in New York may not be able to travel very often to see what is available. So hence this technology does come in play, where we can go, zoom, where we can show the piece, where we can do but be online.
Speaker 1:But then, of course, the idea of being copied being, you know that, everything being stolen away from you and doing at half the price, with half the quality, and maybe one fourth the concept, what you've put in is done, but somewhere the images may look similar, if not same, but you have to only do it apple to apple to see how, what the difference is. We try and protect by as much as we can. We register all our names, register a lot of our designs, but you know, kinjil, somewhere I have a feeling that the best appreciation you can get is being copied. Something you have, something right to be being copied, something is correct that you have brought up on this platform. That is why you're being copied. And, most important, is that if there is this one person sitting in Lucknow who's copying me left, right and center, it's his bread and butter. That gives me immense pleasure to think that if he's making money through me, be it. Maybe that is how it was meant to be. Well, perspectives, they change everything, don't they? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about mental health in fashion. How prevalent is burnout, anxiety, depression, and how often do you see your colleagues and peers seeking help? What about the models that you work with? Do you feel that they're at a high risk due to the demands on their looks? Are there enough avenues or do we need to generate specially curated spaces for this? I think we really need to really generate spaces for these doing these models, and the pressure is huge, and the pressure only comes in when you are committed to do numbers, when it comes to our peers, when you are looking at you know, when you know that there is a target that you have to achieve. That is where the pressure comes in, that's where the anxiety comes in and that's where the burnout comes in. We talk about models.
Speaker 1:When we talk about models, it's very you know when we go out to choosing our models. My first answer is can I have somebody who's more relevant? Can I have somebody who looks normal? Can I not do a size zero? Can I do a medium size? Kinjal? That's my biggest challenge to find a medium size model today.
Speaker 1:Imagine early. They are working under pressure. It's really sad that. Why we cannot, you know, get in these people who look normal, who can eat normally, who can behave normally? Why can't a woman look beautiful in a size medium? I don't understand. And if you go back to my rag, our sizes only start from a medium plus and we go up to an XL. I have no small sizes. I don't believe in them. It's actually an experience a lot of people have when they shop at designers that you know, the rack pieces are all so tiny that a lot of people come out feeling miserable because they couldn't zip it up, they couldn't get into it, they couldn't even try it on.
Speaker 1:No, this is not something we educate and we follow. This is not something we do at all. I start, and if you see my couture pieces, they actually start from a large. I'm happy to bring it down and not take it up. It's amazing, you know, body positivity can start at so many different places, and luxury fashion is just one of them, absolutely. And imagine places and luxury fashion is just one of them, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And imagine I'm not looking at a small size girl who is going to invest in me, into a fashion which is going to be relatable for the next 30, 40, 50 years. It has to be a woman who's going to be in her 40s or 50s, who knows that this is what she wants and she wants to repeat, as your question earlier, there are only a few people a girl, a bride who will come up, who knows that this is what she wants. So that is the kind of education we need to spend and we need to tell our girls that being size zero is not something which you're looking at. Body positivity and having that frame is really important. So if you go down south, all your heroines, all the film stars, the female stars you see are not tiny, they are not size zero, true, yeah, they are really well built. And why are we not educating that towards north? I don't understand that. In fact, even for bollywood, if you look at the past, look at the 90s, I mean we had such beautiful leading ladies and they were not size zero. They were real sizes. They you know we resonated with them as real people absolutely have changed now. Things have changed now and this is something which you really need to work on. This is something which everybody in the fraternity needs to work on. We do not need to be models, we do not need to give this.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't understand why people turn around and say that oh, it is not going to look nice on the hanger. This has got no hanger appeal if it's a size. Oh interesting, I had not heard of this. Why can't a hanger be I? I never thought. Why can't a hanger be a size which is normal? I don't understand that logic.
Speaker 1:Interesting also, mannequins. I mean when you see a mannequin that is made, it will always conform to a certain size. Why will that happen? Why can't we have a mannequin which is a normal size? Why can't we have a hanger which is a normal size? Why can't we have a hanger which is a normal size? Why can't a woman walk in who's a size medium or a large and pull out a piece and wear it? See the mental satisfaction that person gets. Imagine the mental stress that person goes through when they walk out of the store and feel I could never find anything my size. No, no, no, no. That's not what I'm looking at. That's not what luxury means. Well, I think, more power to you and to designers who think like this, because I think it's the need of the hour right now, absolutely. But there's something beautiful.
Speaker 1:I heard recently that all of us are seeking something personal, even through our professional work. So tell me, anjul, what is it that you are looking for through your designs and your encounters? It's a really beautiful thing which you just said. Everybody, at a personal level, when they're doing something professionally, are seeking something. Somebody would be seeking money, somebody would be seeking fame, anybody and everybody. When they get into a profession, they are actually seeking something. You look at a laborer he's seeking to make sure that he gets bread on the table. So that is there.
Speaker 1:But for me, the most important thing which I seek is preserving the craft and, of course, the well-being of my artisan. That is something which has been ignored over time and I don't want that to happen anymore. I want to make sure that my artisan is well paid. As I told you earlier, we have no policy of rejection in our brand. We never ask the artisan as to how much money needs to be paid for the beautiful piece she's created. It's what she says is what she gets paid, wow, hence, when people turn around and tell me, why is chicken curry with you so expensive? That's my answer to them that I have never cut off money from the artisan, ever, ever since the brand started. That's been my biggest policy, because that's the person who is going to bring up their family because of that, and she's put her soul into it. For the next piece she does, when she has been paid in full, is going to be even more beautiful from the first one, because she knows that there's going to be no cut off of money. How wonderful.
Speaker 1:I think it's a very powerful way to use money in a positive sense beautiful. So that's the reason I don't do any fashion shows. I don't do any fashion weeks because I want to put my money. I don't have a flagship store because I don't like to park my money on something with which somebody is going to. It's going to be a rental income for that person, but for me, go that money going back to the artisan is more important. Fabulous, being committed to this level is something which is very rare, but it's beautiful. So, among all the collaborations that you've done, tell me about the most beautiful collaboration to date. So my collaboration to date, the most beautiful one has been with my artisans. If you ask me, when I sit down, that is my most beautiful week. 10 days is the time when I spend in Lucknow with my artisans, from printing to processing the whole piece, which I mean it gets sampled. As I told you, it takes me nearly two years to do a fantastic piece, maybe a lehenga or a sari, but the first sampling and learning what they are going through, even making sure when they are embroidering the piece and we are going to come out with a collection.
Speaker 1:The name also comes from the artisan. I have never used a name which has come out from our team, our co-team. No, never, never. It is coming from the artisan herself who has created the piece. What names are these? The names of the collections, like? The latest is called Sangam. So it came from the artisan who had just visited the Sangam, had made the piece and then, once we finished it, she saw there was amalgamation of three different kinds of, you know, embellishments to it. So she's the one who came back and said why can't we call it Sangam. I said, absolutely, it'll be gone, it'll be called that.
Speaker 1:There was a collection we did which was Chandmati. The whole collection was made in ivory, on with gold thread. It was first time the chicken curry was done in a beige gold thread, the whole chicken curry. So she stood up and she turned around and said that the moon is white and we made it in the colour of mud. We will call it moon mud. That's how the collection was created.
Speaker 1:So I am, the embellishments may be whatever. I may be importing the Australian Swarovski's to put on it to make it look glam, to make it look luxe. But somewhere down the line my heart is very deep rooted to my artisan and my complete ground level worker. So my collaboration with them is something which I cherish the most. I'm just so intrigued. You know, if you see the new generation, if you see the youngsters now, they would probably look at Chandmati and say, oh, how exotic. But it's actually so traditional, it's so rooted in where we come from, it's not exotic, it's us, it's us, it's absolutely us.
Speaker 1:Has there ever been a moment at work, anjul, which just put everything into perspective for you? Any heartwarming or heartbreaking moment that you can share with us Any heartwarming or heartbreaking moment that you can share with us? Oh, because I am sitting there every month. There are so many heartwarming episodes and anecdotes, I have to say. You know. I'll just give you a very small anecdote.
Speaker 1:I work very closely with the Kamdani artisans, that is, the Mukesh Badla, which they call Right. So I intentionally work with all these people who are 60 plus, because somewhere down the line in the villages, when a person crosses the 60 age of 60 and his kids get married, you know that sense of taking over by the youngsters comes in and the man of the house, or maybe the woman of the house who's 60 plus, becomes irrelevant because she's just supposed to be, or he's just supposed to be, sitting on one side and doing little calm and just eating and maybe not even being treated well at some point of time. So giving them that liberty and giving that conscious effort of making sure that they are making their money and they have that self-belief where they can still create and make their own money, that is what was my commitment to taking in the Kamdani artists who were 60 plus. I'll give you a small anecdote on this. I was sitting at one of my centers and working and this old man must have been in his 70s walks in and he's got his Gandani beautiful piece in his hand and he sits down with one of my main guys who takes care of them there and he asks him hum lay aay hain aur ab aap humara hesaap kar le aur dusra piece de de. I hope Hindi is okay because this is going to come up. Absolutely absolutely go ahead. So the guy turned around and said and he turned around and looked at me and said and I looked at my watch and I said he says every Saturday we turn our clocks to this time because he's never late by a minute. Oh wow, every Saturday he comes at four and he lives around seven to eight kilometers away and he walks it. Never takes a rickshaw, never takes a bus. He walks it to us, reaches at dot four to do his accounts. Imagine that was his commitment to work, his health, his work.
Speaker 1:We take financial literacy and financial freedom so much for granted, but it's so important in the younger years, in the older years, all the time, yes. So this flexibility and this making sure that you have this advantage of being financially supported and financially being there, being able to earn your own means is very important. And he came up to me and told me In the whole world of feminism and you know we're all talking about women then we're talking about men, we're talking about rights, but somewhere, I think we've forgotten about the rights of aging people, we've forgotten about their emotions and we don't take it seriously enough. Exactly so that was my point. So somewhere, when it comes to chicken, when I support these women craftsmen and the artisans, this craft of chicken curry is completely taken over by the female, but the craft of Kamdhani is still in the hands of men. So make sure that those old artisans and craftsmen who are master craftsmen, still giving them work was something which I did consciously. Amazing, I'm really amazed with this. More power to you again. Thank you, anjali.
Speaker 1:Is there any lesson you learned the hard way, something you wish somebody had taught you early on? Yes, there are a few which I learned the hard way. As you asked that I am at the designing part, so that is something which was not something which I learned the hard way. That was the softest way to learn, but when it came to the business part, there were a lot of hard learnings. You know you could not be kind when it comes to running your business. You cannot think that everybody is going to be very fair and square all the time with you. That doesn't exist in this world. So there are a lot of things which I learned. You could not trust everybody and anybody all the time when it came to your business. So financial learning was one thing which I learned the really hard way. People would fool you, befool you. Take your product you know somewhere down the line, make you emotionally. Even a client would take you emotionally up and say, oh, I'm going to send you the money. My wedding is just three days down and I would hand over the piece and the money would never come. These are things which I learned the hard way and obviously it made me a little hard somewhere which I don't want to be, but the business demands. I can't help it. So one, like they say, one bad fish makes sure that the whole pond is dirty. So it does make you somewhere. You want to believe in a person, but you can't because your business doesn't allow you to. Well, you live and learn, yes, of course. So let me ask you a question that is very, very close to my heart. I ask this question to all my podcast guests.
Speaker 1:We've all heard of a physical first aid box, something in which we keep our painkillers, you know, our antiseptics for the minor cuts and bruises. What if you were to keep a mental first aid box, something that would make you smile on those low days? What would you put in it? Sweet memories, something you cherish to remember your travel memories. It could be with family. It could be with your extended family. It could be with your work family. It could be with family. It could be with your extended family. It could be with your work family. It could be with anybody. But your sweet memory is something which you need to create all the time and you have to keep it.
Speaker 1:I'm a huge fan of Harry Potter. Remember it very beautifully said that if you have to create a Patus, you have to only get sweet memories. Absolutely positivity and sweet memory is something which you must have in your first eight box. All the time the world is not so negative, so don't treat it that way. I can almost imagine your first eight box. It would be so beautiful and ornate.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's get into the rapid fire round. No thinking, no redos on this one, so answer rapid. Yes, anjul, your favorite book, harry Potter. Your favorite movie character, geet from Jab. We Met your biggest pet peeve, something that absolutely irritates you non-committal attitude, the one thing that you believed in but no longer do. Financial trust. Your most prized possession, family, which includes my artisans beautiful.
Speaker 1:Is there a question that you have for me as a psychologist? Absolutely, I do. I really have this question which I need to ask you and I really want to answer on this is how do you deal with the Gen Z? How are they? How is it that you can, you know, tame them to do the right work ethics? What is that one advice that you would like to give them so that they can have the right work ethics? You know this is a very complicated question right now because so many people have written of the entire generation. I mean people like First Post are doing articles on why Gen Z is the most unemployable generation. But we'll have to also take a step back and see what they have seen in their lifetimes, what makes them so complacent and what makes them so effective working from home. Also, I think with Gen Z, we need to have a stern hand. They've all been mollycoddled because of everything that is going on in the world.
Speaker 1:So if you have a younger lot that you are hiring, put them on a probation period, tell them that I'm going to watch for three to four weeks, give them clear cut goals. They work best when they have direct goals and targets to achieve. It was easier with the older generation where you just told them you know, do right by your customers, always customer first. You know, do A, b, c and you'll be okay. But with this generation, I think it always works better if you tell them listen, this is the target, this is how many people you need to network with, this is how many pieces you need to create or sell or whatever their work profile is, and you'll notice that they actually deliver.
Speaker 1:It's also very important for us to learn what they are better at. I think we are all safeguarding ourselves from the new tech that they are so good at. They can own and control gadgets, and now AI, in a way that we never will. So I think we need to tap into that resource. They can be brilliant. I mean, put a 40-year-old on Instagram and tell them now, you know, rock this world. And put an 18, an 18 or 20 year old and you'll see the difference. They know the algorithms, they know how to crack social media, they know how to crack technology.
Speaker 1:We need to start using them for what they are better at. We can't, you know, keep reinventing the wheel and say, okay, now you did, you do what your grandfather did. That's not going to happen. I so agree with you when you say this and such an important tip that we need to get into their resources and we have to make sure that we have to tap into what they are good at, but at the same time, kinjal, somewhere they also need to know that, in a longer run, a senior person or a traditional way cannot go away, so they have to, in time, learn to marry the both. That's very important. Well, yes, and there are all kinds. I think we can't generalize a generation. You know, the generation has some old souls, there are some vagabonds, there are some nomads at heart. So you need to pick the ones that match your style, that match your brand, and then you'll be better off. Thank you so much. That's such a wonderful advice and they're amply available. That's so true. We just have to pick the right one, absolutely Well.
Speaker 1:It's been such a pleasure talking to you, anjul, I mean when I've been looking at your brand, I've been looking at your designs and I always have this feel of you know, beauty and very subtle beauty, very subtle power in that beauty. I've always wanted to have this conversation with you. I have loved your commitment to artisans. In fact, we have Maruf also coming on, detangled season four. It's such a coincidence that we have so much of beauty in Lucknow and all of it is coming together for me in this season. Thank you for bringing your sparkle, your shine and all your commitment into my episode. Thank you so much and thank you for having me. It was such a beautiful conversation and I hope lot many people hear this and your podcast goes from strength to strength. Thank you so much.
