Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Shreya Punj
What happens when our love for reading becomes a performance rather than a personal journey? In this thought-provoking conversation, Dr. Kinjal Goyal sits down with Shreya Punj—publishing industry insider, head of e-commerce at HarperCollins Publishers India, and the mind behind the popular Instagram handle @theeditorrecommends.
Shreya brings refreshing candor to the discussion as she challenges the literary elitism that pervades both publishing houses and reader communities. "When a book becomes too popular, there's this undercurrent of dismissal—“Oh, it's selling well, but is it literature?” she notes. This prejudice creates artificial barriers that keep potential readers from discovering the joy books can bring. The good news? Fiction sales in India are rising 20-30% annually, with readers exploring everything from science fiction to literary masterpieces.
For parents wondering how to raise readers in a digital age, Shreya offers counterintuitive wisdom: let children choose their own reading material without judgment. "Forcing good literature on children is the fastest way to kill their love for reading," she explains, sharing how her own gateway to passionate reading came through a slightly forbidden Sidney Sheldon novel. The conversation takes fascinating turns through discussions of format preferences (physical books vs. digital), the psychological impact of casual "therapy speak" in modern language, and what makes a perfect mental first aid box for Shreya.
Whether you're a lifelong bibliophile or someone who hasn't picked up a book in years, this conversation invites you to reconsider your relationship with reading. Books aren't meant to be status symbols—they're portals to empathy, entertainment, and expanded horizons. Ready to reclaim the pure joy of reading without pretense? Listen now, and maybe pick up that "chatpata" masala read you've been secretly eyeing.
Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, Dr Kinjal Goel, a psychologist and a writer. We have a wonderful guest today and a very beautiful episode indeed. Our guest is Shreya Punj. Ms Punj, or the editor recommends, as she is very fondly known, comes from the heart of the publishing world, having worked extensively with Penguin and HarperCollins. For me personally, no conversation is more exciting than one with a fellow reader, and we do have a fiery rapid fire at the end of the episode. So stay tuned. Welcome, Shreyad. Such a pleasure to have you with me on Detangled today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Kenjul. It's a pleasure to be here and I'm so happy that we're going to have this lovely conversation for all your listeners.
Speaker 1:Well, let's get in. Tell our audience a little bit about your scope of work and your experience, Shreya.
Speaker 2:So right now, my scope of work is that I head e-commerce at HarperCollins Publishers India, and this basically means that I'm responsible for getting us sales on any online platform this could include Amazon, quickcommerce, other websites that sell books and that's essentially my job. Apart from this, I also have my Instagram handle called the Editor Recommends, as you mentioned in the intro as well, which sometimes ends up taking a backseat because of the large quantum of work one has at their job. Before this, I used to commission and edit books. I did this both at Penguin and Harper Collins, and that was one of, like the most transformative job experiences I've had, because you get to take an idea with someone and build it and shape it into a book that thousands and thousands of readers will hopefully enjoy and love and connect with. So that's been my professional journey, so to say.
Speaker 1:How lovely, but this is such a niche field, shreya. What inspired you to take this on Any inspiration early on in life?
Speaker 2:So you know, most origin stories in creative fields are packaged as these beautiful epiphanies, but mine was more about like pattern recognition. So I was in engineering college and I realized that in my third year that a job in TCS, infosys or any of the other companies that come for hiring wasn't something I wanted to do. And then I just saw that what combination of skills do I possess? And these included, if I said to myself, were analytical thinking, content understanding and just a general awareness of where social trends are. So when I combined these with my love for books, the natural home was publishing. So it was more of an aptitude match than anything that makes it feel like I was inspired or I was led to this industry. Yeah, it was just very basic SWOT analysis.
Speaker 1:It's so important. You know we've de-glamorized logical thinking and we've only romanticized these epiphanies. So I'm so glad somebody's you know actually romanticizing. Now, thinking straight, it really matters.
Speaker 2:I really think it does, because a lot of like the content also we see now is very driven by what do you feel intuitively? No, there are logical steps that lead you to build the skill set which we then later on call intuition.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad that you resonated with my thought process too yes, because a lot of people nowadays, especially the younger generation, waits to achieve their passion only once they recognize it. So they want to go backwards. You know, they want to begin with the end, find the passion and then work towards it, while a lot of us have started working in fields and then figured that, yes, this is what I'm passionate about. Yep, absolutely. So let's delve into your social media space for a bit. It's my favorite. I've been following you for a while and that's how I found you, but tell me more about it. How did this idea of hashtag India pick up the book take root? How's it going now?
Speaker 2:So my social media actually started because I wanted more authors, or people who dreamt of becoming an author, understand what publishing was really about, because publishing from the outside can seem like a black box and it's very hard to find people whom you can like, speak with or get real information from. So that was the intention and that's why it was called the editor recommends. Then, as it started growing, is when I realized that, okay, people now seem to have sufficient information about the process. Let's reach out to a wider audience of people who aren't choosing to read.
Speaker 2:There's just this alienation of a lot of folks that happens when you glamorize reading as this exclusive, you know, highbrow activity, and that's what I wanted to sort of get rid of, and that birthed India Pick Up the Book. It was also, again, a step of logical calculations that when you have a tagline or when you have a motto that's larger than yourself, then anybody can join in that, so it's not something that just mind. Then anybody who chooses to pick up the book and happens to be Indian can join in this movement and feel like they're part of something bigger. So I really hope that it's done that, because the response from the audience was amazing. Lots of people started using the hashtag as well, and nothing brings me more joy than that how lovely.
Speaker 1:You know. I remember you had put up some content recently saying that all of us treat books as if they have to be exclusive. And you know this highbrow thinking. They have to be good content and we have stopped talking about the fun books that we read. You know the highbrow thinking. They have to be good content and we have stopped talking about the fun books that we read.
Speaker 1:You know the chatpata books, the masala books, the ones that keep us hooked and off late. I've been reading a book which is just like that. It's like this little break from a healthy diet when you go on to some junk food and really enjoy it. Yeah, and I said this is important, you know you need these books which make you feel that, yes, this is pleasure, this is fun, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's like my lifelong agenda now making people you know, remove this thing. That books means some divine knowledge which will help you achieve what you want in life. Books are supposed to be fun. Stories are supposed to be fun, just like how we think of bollywood masala movies, and they can offer you a wide spectrum of, like you said, like a diet right Some days chips, some days salad you have to eat everything Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's talk about the market. Shreya, you see it so up close. Have you seen the demand of certain genres of book go up or down steadily?
Speaker 2:So we recently at work had a presentation by an organization that does data research for us and it was very heartwarming because year on year, fiction sales in India are increasing by almost 20-30%, which is fantastic. Because when a society starts reading more fiction, they become more empathetic, and this has been proven by science as well. Because you're putting yourself in the shoes of another, you're living a life that you may never actually experience yourself, or you may develop a better understanding of your own situation through the eyes of another or through the words of another, and that change and that shift from only self-help nonfiction to a growing demand for fiction just makes me very, very happy. And the second thing is that amongst fiction, indians are very explorative readers. There is a huge love for science fiction, for fantasy and also a lot of just really good literary fiction. So this is the data we got and and I was smiling year to year- how nice.
Speaker 1:This actually brings me back to a conversation I had with Javed Atter Sahib on one of my episodes of Detangle and he said you know, what the country is enjoying in terms of songs, in terms of movies says a lot about the country. So, similarly, when you say there's a shift in reading, it says a lot about us, a mentality, a universal consciousness which is changing.
Speaker 2:so it's really, really interesting to know I agree, I've actually heard that episode, that conversation you had with javed akhtar sahab, and a, what a wonderful conversation. I think everybody should listen to it because the kind of questions you asked him, you know, brought out a side of him which I've not really seen in other interviews he may have done. And b, again, he just opens up your mind to seeing art and our connection to it in so many different ways. So, yeah, loved it absolutely so.
Speaker 1:What is your personal favorite genre? Do you have one or do you just skip between genres?
Speaker 2:no, I don't have a favorite genre, but if there's one kind of book blurb, like the information at the back of a book, that will get me to buy it instantly, is French Woman, a book that's focused on her interiority, dark psychology with a hint of intrigue or thrill. So think of authors like Laila Slimani, maude Ventura, louise May, books like these and books by women, especially from the French side of things. Yeah, I will buy and lab it up. Have you read the Perfume Collector? I have, yes, the Perfume Collector. I've also read Perfume, which is one of the most surreal, crazy works of art I have ever read.
Speaker 1:Wow, Okay, lots of book names dropping in. I hope people pick up these books as soon as this episode is over. Love it. What do you prefer? Digital modes of reading like Kindle or audiobooks, or are you still old school with you know paperback and hardback?
Speaker 2:What do you prefer? I'm really format agnostic. I have a huge library of actual, like physical copies of books, sometimes even multiple editions. But these days, days, because one spends so much time on the road or traveling or you only get time to read when in bed, say, at like 12 am. I like kindle because it's backlit. I like audiobooks because they make my travel so much easier, like genuinely enjoy and look forward to sometimes like a 15 minute jam, just so that the chapter ends. So, yeah, and I think these days, yes, digital integration of books on all my devices is a lifesaver, because I don't think I would have been able to like maintain my reading habit as well as I can right now.
Speaker 1:I agree completely. I also prefer the Kindle for the simple reason it allows me to look up words very easily. Yes, absolutely. And you know, like even the simple reason.
Speaker 2:It allows me to look up words very easily.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and you know, like even the highlighting of it so of course you can highlight a physical book and I urge everybody to treat their books as they would their clothes like, use it. Like you know it is your own thing to own, but a kindle makes it so much easier to collate the notes, export it, keep it for ready reference, because our memory doesn't work in that photographic manner as much as we would have liked it to. So I really appreciate that. Like most of my books, where I have found a phrase, a quote, something I really loved or resonated with, I have a little notes thing where I can copy paste it into very convenient lovely.
Speaker 1:So even as a book club we have a book club going on for the last 17 years here and we have we always discuss what we read and we pick up a book to read, but I feel like when I'm reading digitally, I can share this with a lot more people. So, you know, you share a highlighted quote online or on goodreads and suddenly you have conversations going so, which is a lot more fun.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, that is also such a great point. I mean, I don't tend to do that too often, but when I do, you suddenly have something that you can bond with someone over, which is not just like oh, garmi, kitni padh rahe hai.
Speaker 1:Exactly Brings me back to the point of empathy that you raised. That it does you know. It makes us bond, it makes us talk, it makes us believe that there are so many people enjoying the same thing worldwide. Yes, absolutely Super. So reading can calm a person, inspire a person, stimulate the brain and, like Enid Blyton always said, open a whole new world for readers. But this magic doesn't touch everyone. What do you feel is lacking? Is it exposure to the right books, or time and attention span? What's going wrong?
Speaker 2:Interesting. So I'm going to be very blunt here. I think the magic of reading doesn't touch everyone, because we've really made it very performative instead of personal, like. We've created this false hierarchy where reading a classic somehow makes you more worthy than reading, say, romance or manga or a comic book. So when someone says they don't like reading, they often mean they don't like reading what's been prescribed to them. And this is specifically I've noticed amongst people who've gone through the Indian education system, where everything is a you learn, you perform, you get marks and then your parents are happy with you. It's not about exploration, it's not about choosing what you want and that's fine.
Speaker 2:I understand that when you're catering to a whole country's education needs, you need to have a format, but we don't as a society allow room for just experimentation. It has to have an end goal attached to it, so our risk taking becomes very limited, and that reflects even in reading. Reading also requires, I think, a level, level of interiority which we largely as a society don't encourage. If I have an opinion, I will go and tweet about it. If I have seen something beautiful, I have to share it immediately.
Speaker 2:We don't keep anything for ourselves, and if we do, we are not. We're not awarded for it. So what we are awarding by likes and views and validation, is that performative behavior. So I think these two issues, when they go simultaneously, is what makes people not want to pick up a book, because they think other readers are just peacocking. And b because when they have, in the past, tried to read something which was different, they were probably told that this is not a real book, this is a comic book, this is just like that. So I think that's why, yeah, we do shame people for the books they read.
Speaker 1:You're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think the magic isn't universal because we've really made it exclusive.
Speaker 1:You know, I recently had this beautiful experience where a friend of mine walked into my office and she saw my library and she said oh my God, do you read all this? I said yes, and some more. And she said I've never picked up a book. And she's 42. And it took me a minute to understand what she was saying. She has never experienced the joy of reading. So I asked her a few questions, figured out you know what area she was inclined towards and picked up the forest of enchantments by chitra banerjee and I gave it to her. I said just read it. You know, read 10 pages, 20 pages, tell me what you feel. And she messaged me a few weeks later and she said I can't believe I missed out on this all my life and I can't wait to read more yeah, but imagine like your psychologist friend asking you questions, understanding exactly what might you need and recommending a book.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's so cool, like I would love to like have 10 sessions with you, just so you can then tell me oh shreya, why don't you read this?
Speaker 1:is that beautiful moments books can bring? Absolutely. So tell me from the business side, as a young expert in publishing and marketing, what have been your greatest challenges I think the greatest challenge has been navigating an industry that's very prejudiced against its own success.
Speaker 2:So, like I'll tell you what it means. When a book becomes a bestseller, which means it has mass market appeal, we and, by the way, this, these are books that we need to survive financially. But when a book becomes too popular, there's this undercurrent of dismissal, like, oh, it's selling well, but is it literature? As if readers' enthusiasm somehow diminishes a book's value. You know, just to say what it is. It's elitism. And this sometimes runs really deep.
Speaker 2:Whether I was presenting a book in acquisitions or I was a part of acquisition meetings, or when we're just having shop talk, like you know, over a drink, there's this undercurrent of this will sell really well, but is it going to be lasting literature?
Speaker 2:And what I find funny about this is that our obsession with legacy stems from nowhere, because most of the classics, most of the books we now consider classics, were never written with that intention, like, I'm sure, tolstoy.
Speaker 2:If I talk about russian high society and my feelings and thoughts around it, 500 years later, the legacy will continue. I think when we become too obsessed with this legacy literature, we end up producing books which no one's really connecting with and when we are looking down at books which bring us the most money or readers who love those books, we are not staying true to ourselves in the sense that if a reader picks up one book, they're very likely to enjoy it and pick up the second and then the third and they will then evolve in what they think is a classic. So this elitism is something which I think we struggle with at all levels. I've also been there. I've also felt that where I would say I only read these books and like I would never be caught dead with a mass market paperback, huge success bestseller. So it took me a lot of unlearning to get to this point where I'm like huh, the last book I read was a romance and it was really fun and it sold a million copies worldwide.
Speaker 1:So you know, Russian literature reminds me of this book I read called the Anna Karenina Fix. I don't know if you've read that one.
Speaker 2:I haven't. I am just going to note it down. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:And it just makes it so simple. It makes this heavy Russian literature. It breaks it down into bite-sized pieces and it doesn't make you feel so dumb at the end of it. So it's a beautiful attempt. It's a beautiful book. It makes you understand that everything is not meant to be so difficult.
Speaker 2:We can simplify things. Yeah, I agree with that viewpoint where simplification can help. But I also think that, like I said, there's a natural progression, just as in school, right, we start with our abcs and then by class 12 you're doing integration and gaussian math. So there is that graph that you have to allow your brain. So first get into like basic exercises, like walking, and then go attempt your I don't know your marathon or your 150 kg deadlift. Like you can't, your first book can't be anna karenina and you can't hope to take your dopamine filled brain to a book. That's supposed to be tense, it's supposed to be excruciatingly long, because that's the joy of it, that's the mountain you're choosing to climb. But if you attach shame to the rest, like you're just walking or you can't do a deadlift, you're not actually healthy, then that's when you've lost the battle.
Speaker 1:I agree completely. So during this process of your social media work and your work in the publishing houses, has there ever been that one moment that simply made everything worthwhile? You know, the pinnacle of joy, as it were.
Speaker 2:I think there must have been many, but I don't think of life in this framework Like. For me, a moment is just that, a moment, and I'm usually baseline pay a happy person. So once a moment has been lived, and it's taken me some practice to get there, where I am genuinely in that moment, I tend to move on, like I'll journal about it if it's made an impact, but next day it's a fresh new slate. Jo hoga dikha jaega. So I don't tend to collect my moments in that category. Ki oh, this was my lowest point, this was my highest point. So as long as it's a healthy average, Fair enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me ask you something. I've been wanting to get into the conversation for a while now. Yes, please. So I see a lot of moms coming to me and asking me how can they get their children, or even teens, to read. Now, as a psychologist, my answer usually is for the parent to start reading first and to make books accessible in times of boredom. But from within the publishing world, what do you think? Are there any specific books or genres that can really help young new readers become regular readers, like specific recommendations that you have?
Speaker 2:so for all the parents listening to this, I am going to be super direct forcing good literature, what parents think of as good literature on children is the fastest way to kill their love for reading, like just it's death. And, like we just spoke about in the previous few questions, that you have an industry that also has this hierarchy, where we're celebrating literary fiction, looking down on genre fiction, and then we have parents who think and curate what they think their child should be reading, and children can sense authenticity. So if you're giving them a Ruskin Bond and saying, and then you're actually watching Netflix, they'll know that maybe this is not as great an activity as you make it out to be. They'll know that maybe this is not as great an activity as you make it out to be. So when you're trying to build your child's reading habit, no matter what age, I think first is format. So let them go to a bookstore, let them pick out a comic, a graphic novel. They may even choose something, as you know, simple as chicken soup for the soul, five minute story done. You felt something. Everything counts as long as they're enjoying it. And they're not going to be reading war and peace. They're also not going to probably like any of the previous books, which is why new books are being introduced right and second is, I think, for teenagers who are now perhaps addicted to their phones, let them read something which is slightly forbidden Like.
Speaker 2:I remember this distinct memory my librarian. I was in class seven. She let me roam around the library during a free period and I went and discovered this stack of books which was marked for teachers only. I was like, okay, what are these teachers reading? And it was this author named Sydney Sheldon. I picked one up and I went to my librarian and said I want to read what the teachers are reading. Maybe this will be helpful for me. And she looked astounded and she said, um, you, okay, take it. So I took it home and it was lying in my bag.
Speaker 2:I started reading it at night and my mom walked in to say goodnight. She saw I was reading a Sidney Sheldon from the school library issued in my name, and she started laughing and she said but if you have any questions, don come to me, okay, go to your librarian. Only I said, okay, fine. Then I was like what's gonna happen? And yeah, as everybody knows, sydney Sheldon is the gateway most people's gateway is into understanding the biology of childbirth and what, yes, and what adults do. So I read it, I loved it, and I felt such a thrill that a my librarian thought I was mature enough, be that my mom didn't like scare me into thinking I had to hide it, but my dad, of course she said so I knew that it was also slightly forbidden, right like I was in on an adult secret.
Speaker 2:So let your kids read something which is slightly forbidden. Like any way, they'll come across it. The internet is an absolutely disgusting, lovely, beautiful place, so I like the hierarchy of words that you've used. Okay, yeah, so let them explore, man, like it's fine, they're gonna find out anyway. So if they do it through like a cheeky sexy book and they feel like they have pulled a fast one over you, let them have that win, and I promise you they have pulled a fast one over you. Let them have that win and I promise you they might start with that, but they will move on to something much better very soon, because reading is highly addictive.
Speaker 2:And finally, I think the last is that we think of Netflix or Prime or whatever as enemies to reading, but when these kinds of you know billion dollar companies, they choose to pick up a book and make a movie or a series about it. It's very natural for the child to then be like oh, I'll also read the book, so you can enjoy a piece of content in three, four different formats. So I remember when holly jackson her first book it's called a good girl's guide to murder was released as a netflix special, she tracked and the sales of her physical books went up so much. And that was because only season one has been made. But there are three other books. So you've seen season one, you want to know what happens. So you end up picking and reading all those books because now you've gotten hooked and now you have a face, a place to think of when you're reading. So you know your imagination is very well-rounded, very interesting.
Speaker 1:I didn't know about this Very, very interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, also, you should definitely read Holly Jackson Really fun books because it's also centered around having a podcast to solve crime.
Speaker 1:My daughters have these.
Speaker 2:I have made teenage girls so they have their own. Amazing, so happy, I think. Sorry, go ahead, and that was that, was it? Pretty much there's three things like let kids be, let them have fun and don't force your choices upon what you think is right or wrong for them. Let them pick the book that they want and if, for example, they don't like it, let that also be okay, unless, of course, you're financially constrained, which case I highly recommend going to second-hand bookstores or visiting markets which have that facility, or getting yourself a library card for them, so that you don't feel any financial constraints, because books can be expensive. But yeah, regardless, I mean it shouldn't be a punishing form of you know books padho acha hota hai. But then when they actually start enjoying something which you don't approve of, you immediately start berating them.
Speaker 1:That's not cool you know, this brings back such a strong memory of something that my mom did with me when I was a child and I never really gave it so much importance until now when we are talking. So what she would do is she would subscribe to these magazines for me it could be tinkle and Champak and something which had short stories and she would hide it under the couch, under the cushion when it came in the morning and wait for me to come back from school and have a little treat ready for me to enjoy with that magazine. So it was always a moment of joy when it arrived and I was banned from reading fiction during my exams and she would say you will not read because you will get hooked and you will not be able to study. And it meant nothing, honestly, but in my mind it became a treat that I had to work towards and it was something that I really looked forward to, you know.
Speaker 1:So at the end of my exams she would take me shopping, she would take me to a bookstore and I would get all the fiction books I wanted.
Speaker 1:How amazing so even so even now she's just my mom, Damn smart lady. But she did that. Yeah, you know, everything was a treat. I mean, every book was a treat. And she had this when I grew up and became a teen. She would allow me to buy whatever book I wanted and she would pay for it. But if I didn't read or if I just started stacking my books, I had to pay for that book from my pocket money. So she said you buy what you read, you read what you buy simple.
Speaker 2:That is fantastic, like she taught you accountability and accounts so yeah utilization of an asset same with my mom so my mom's a psychologist. Actually she's a child counselor lovely she's also a teacher, trainer, etc.
Speaker 2:Etc. So she really knows the ins and outs of the human mind and she really wanted to raise a reader because she herself was one. Yeah, she introduced me. I don't know how, but that woman found some of the best books possible. Most of them are still with me and she bought them when I was six. So I'm 33 now and she didn't do the reward method.
Speaker 2:But what we did have is she made it very clear that this is your budget for books. So when we go to the store, no, chun chun, chen chen, within that budget, you know basic math, whatever you want is yours. So when I walk in the store, I already know that I have about, say, 400 rupees back in, say, 2000 and I can choose maybe two books which are really beautiful, or I can choose two really fat books which will last me a longer time. So I would obviously end up picking really fat books just because we did not have internet and we had to make those books last. And unfortunately, I was a very fast reader because, yes, people, books are highly addictive, hard to relate.
Speaker 2:So she would like have very clear boundary settings, as a parent as well, that she doesn't have more money than this, then you also learn how to you know am I, do I want something pretty or do I want something which is going to give me most value for my buck? And sometimes I would end up choosing the pretty one because you know it had really beautiful illustrations and came with a free crayon or something. But again, choices. We learned roi very early through this. Very, very nothing like an indian parent who is on a budget and wants to raise a well-rounded child.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. So, talking about children and talking about moms, if you had the chance to give your younger self some advice let's say a 14-year-old share what would you say?
Speaker 2:Nothing. I don't think she would have heard me.
Speaker 2:I like this I really don't think she would have heard me. Anyway, I like this. Yeah, I really don't think. Yeah, I think some lessons life has to teach you. If you can imbibe them, great, but most people like reinventing the wheel, so let them. It's just something people go through. But I'll tell you one thing, the one piece of advice I give myself now.
Speaker 2:So every morning, like when I'm getting ready, I say this African proverb I found randomly on pinterest, which says cat that dreams of becoming a lion must lose its appetite for rats. And I love it, a because it makes me smile, b because I then feel very confident and sexy, as cats tend to do. And c just tells me and tells my brain in the morning only, that we are not being concerned about people whom we don't look up to, and if we want to be someone bigger, higher, more important than what we are currently in like the social hierarchy of things, we have to look upward. And that just really helps me stay, because sometimes it can get very easy to see one random comment or one slightly, you know, off the cuff remark by somebody that may put you in a bad mood, so instantly I'm like I'm a cat who wants to become a lion and this person is a rack to me, so that just really helps, so cool yeah I'm telling you these animal kingdom.
Speaker 2:Proverbs from africa are the best. Let me tell you mine, my favorite African proverb.
Speaker 1:It says until the lion learns to write, the story will always glorify the hunter. Yes, oh, yes it just changes my perspective on every story, on everything, on every narrative, on everything that is happening around. It's all about your vantage point, where you are, what you're seeing. It's not the same for two people.
Speaker 2:That is so true and especially, like you know, in the day and age we live right now like who controls the media, who gets to tell the story? Wow, this is something I vaguely remember. We were taught in journalism school, but not as eloquently as you just put it, like in this pithier manner where you know you can just carry it with you without having to remember something really long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is why I love the internet. It makes everything easy.
Speaker 2:It does. I called it like a disgusting beautiful place, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'll take the beautiful part right now because, well, we connected over it, so I'm giving the beautiful Absolutely Okay. Now here's a question that I absolutely love. I ask every guest this question and I just love the answers that I'm getting out of it. We've all heard of a physical first aid box, right, something in which you would keep your painkillers, antiseptic, etc. For those minor cuts and bruises when you don't need a doctor. But what if you were to keep a mental first aid box, something that would make you smile on those low days, something which would just make you happy. Open it and you're happy. What would you put in?
Speaker 2:it. That's so interesting, like it's a nice way to think about what you're grateful for as well. Hmm, actually, my answer is very simple for this. So three things. One would be videos of my dog with my husband and my parents and my brother. Okay, so I have a golden retriever. His name is brownie and he is the goofiest, cutest little baby dog. Baby, not human baby, and I think if I didn't have access to the human beings specifically, I would look at these videos because they genuinely make me smile so much.
Speaker 2:The second thing would probably be so I journal a lot, okay, and now it's become like, as I go, when I can I don't put a pressure there, but I often like go back to my older journals, so where you know, you've written like I want my salary to be 50 000 rupees, I want to be four star appraisal, like all of that right, I want to afford, like, my first luxury lipstick.
Speaker 2:So when I look back at those things and I see how far I've come, it always makes me smile, because there's something my nanaji used to say what man has done, man can do. So I look back at that and I'm like, oh, at that point this seemed insurmountable, but we got here. So, of course, like, whatever is bringing you down right now, you'll overcome it or you will process it and you'll get past it. So that would be number two, and the third one is slightly uh, brings me a bit of embarrassment is this playlist I have, and this has all those songs that you play on Holi or when you're on a long drive you play at full blast, and this includes a bit of Haryanvi music. It includes a lot of Enrique. That playlist always, always gets me to dance, like I can't stop myself, and when you dance it releases all the good hormones and you feel better about your day and life.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, the most underrated therapy is fabulous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like there's some old songs, right like, which are embedded in your head as party music because you only ever heard them at. Like these parties, yeah, always make me dance how nice I love this box.
Speaker 1:It's clear, it's concise, it's crisp. I can almost physically imagine it. Please make one and just keep it with you.
Speaker 2:I will Actually. Yeah, I should Thank you Validation from a psychologist as good as you. Little Treya is so happy right now. Have fun.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's get into the rapid fire round. No thinking, no retakes. Okay, we're going to answer quick your favorite book Right now?
Speaker 2:it's Wellness by Nathan Hill. Okay, your favorite movie character? None, I don't watch too many movies, sorry. Okay, your biggest pet peeve? Judging people on the basis of their tastes, without any understanding of why they have those tastes.
Speaker 1:Okay, the one thing you believed in, but no longer do.
Speaker 2:Hmm, interesting. I always believed that I was lovable only when I achieved things. I no longer do that.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's profound, your most prized possession.
Speaker 2:The book I told you about. My mom got me this book of old Russian fairy tales and she got them for me when I was either six or seven. Those are really like my prized possessions. I have carried them from posting to posting. I'm a 4G kid. They're still in pristine condition. I go back to them ever so often, love them. Most prized possession, priceless.
Speaker 1:Before we come to an end of this conversation, shreya, I honestly don't want it to end, but is there a question that you have for me as a psychologist?
Speaker 2:Yes, ma'am, I do Go ahead, okay. So there's one thing I've observed a lot in the last I'd say post-covid actually which is we have our phones with us and we're constantly on the internet. We're also constantly posting stuff and documenting everything and sharing everything, and I feel like, when we look back upon these things, are we becoming better at understanding ourselves or are we just becoming better at performing introspection, like I see? So many people use therapy, speak for something as basic as oh my god, trauma, this memification, this speaking like a, a therapist, but actually your actions show that you have no self-aware. Like why is this happening? What's happening? Is it good, is it bad? Like what do you feel as a psychologist about this? You know, performed introspection, or are we actually becoming aware? And it's absolutely fine to talk like this Like what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:I'm so glad somebody asked this question because I have been up in arms against people who are trying to, like you said, make it a meme or make it so simple that it doesn't feel important anymore. So, yes, we needed to lift the taboo. We needed at one point to be able to talk about anxiety, trauma, fear, negative emotions, because society did not allow it for a very long time. But now we've suddenly gone to the other end and we are now talking about it as if it doesn't matter, so that you know, every teenager is saying, oh my God, did you see the paper? Today I'm traumatized. And they're not talking about the newspaper, they're talking about some test paper. So they don't genuinely know what trauma feels like, but they are talking about it as if. Okay.
Speaker 1:So now how will they find a better word or how will they find new vocabulary when, god forbid, they really experience some kind of trauma? How will this generation then experience or explain what they're going through, because they've suddenly started playing with a lot of emotions? You know they'll say, oh, this is my childhood trauma, oh, this is something that I carry from. They started talking about emotions. The Freudian language became very common, you know. Suddenly people are talking about the Oedipal complex as if you know it was nothing, and I'm always wondering what is going to happen.
Speaker 1:So, personally, I don't work with children, I work with adults only. But I'm very curious to see how, when this generation comes into adulthood and when they come in for therapy, what is the language they're going to use, or what is the language I'm going to use to convey the seriousness of what happened to them. Like PTSD is a beautiful explanation of what your mind goes through in a very, very traumatic state. It's amazing when a patient understands it and has that insight. You know, but I have only this vocabulary. Now, if somebody's using ptsd casually or using trauma casually, I'm going to be at a loss trying to explain to this generation. Okay, this is what happened, this is what is happening and this is how we will overcome it. So, yeah, either us psychologists will have to up our vocabulary or we'll have to encourage kids to start using simpler words and not use words only for glamour and glorification of a simple thought. Wow.
Speaker 2:I never thought about how it would require a fundamental change in the way therapy is engaged in. Because, yeah, I'm also like chronically online and in 2023, I think I had the most extensive round of therapy because I was burnt out and to I almost feel like I'm reaching that age where you're like tumne kaha trauma dekha hai, humne dekha hai. And then you go back to your father, who's like tum thodna school jaate the so nahiya chala mountain cross karke school po. He went to Naya mountain cross and went to school.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. The cliches will always exist. We'll make our own cliches, but we won't be free of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my god, so profound, but like, sorry, I have one more follow up to this. Then Go ahead. Let's say I am raised on a diet of like these kinds of memes. How, then, would you advise me to distinct like, at least in my own head, like not everything needs therapy. You should be able to self regulate, you should have some degree of self awareness. How do I build that if, all around me, people are constantly memefying genuine therapy, to speak Like, how can I build my internal radar?
Speaker 1:It's very simple. You, as a person, are very fond of clarity, right? So this conversation we figured that you work on facts, you work on logic. So for all those people who are working on facts and logic, it's simple create red flags. Understand what these red flag words are.
Speaker 1:For example, I teach my teenage girls that y'all say it very easily that oh my God, I want to die. But don't say that, because if somebody in a conversation tells you that they've had a suicidal thought or they want to kill themselves, or they're talking about self-harm, dig deeper. Don't ignore it as something in vocabulary which is easily used. Ask them do they need something? Do they need someone? Are they at risk? And I said this is where now you have to evolve to.
Speaker 1:We have done the basic steps. We've understood our emotions as children, but now we need to understand other people's emotions as well. So certain red flags, like if somebody says that they have not been able to get out of bed, instead of labeling them as lazy or you know somebody who's not motivated, or you're procrastinating ask them is something wrong? Is something wrong? Is something emotionally disturbing? Is something affecting their mood, their food, their sleep cycle? And then see if they need help beyond you. So you know, these are red flags. We need to establish that. Okay, beyond this, we have to use the right words and up till here, it's all in fun and games. We can't obviously shame a whole generation for the language they're using.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. I mean, I personally use that. Oh my god, I could, like I could die today. Exactly no, and my friends know, and my parents know that is said in jest. But if I were to tell them exactly what you said, my god and you know, your voice also adapts that slightly downturn way of saying.
Speaker 2:That's when, like, I think, my husband or my mom's ears pick up and they're like first things, first, please eat a banana, go for a walk for five minutes, come back and then tell are you feeling better or is it the same? And then I'm like okay, okay, doing, doing, doing, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think our emotional quotient is also changing. Our eqs are evolving, our iqs are evolving. We're all adapting. I think we're constantly adapting. The previous generation probably adapted, you know, at a slower pace. They didn't need to, but we, as you know, 35, 40 year olds, are adapting more and the youngsters are adapting even more. So, well, this has been so tremendous. Shreya, thank you so much for all your time, your insight, all the beautiful work you do. I would recommend your page that is, the editor recommends on Instagram to everybody who's listening. Please follow it, please see the content she's putting up, because it is fabulous. You will definitely enjoy a book more after you listen to Shreya talk. So thank you, shreya, thank you for being with us, and I hope this episode reaches all the old readers, young readers, new readers and old readers. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, kinjal, for hosting me, for these very fun questions and insightful questions, and thank you for giving an answer to the two questions I've had for a long time about the psychology of the young mind. It was a pleasure being here, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Shreya.
