Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle is a podcast created by health psychologist and writer, Dr Kinjal Goyal. Each episode is a conversation with an expert in their field, as they dive deep into their journerys and experiences. The conversations are full of insight and a great way to hear, first hand, how the mind plays a pivotal role in almost everything that we do. The guests range from doctors, to writers, to those in entertainment and of course, those from mental health fields.
Detangle by Kinjal
Detangle with Charles Byrne
What if the secret to bridging cultural divides, securing meaningful employment, and developing empathy isn't found in what we learn - but in how we communicate?
Charles Byrne, Director General of the English Speaking Union, brings a fascinating perspective to this conversation, drawing from his uniquely diverse career spanning philosophy, retail management, and non-profit leadership. His journey to becoming a champion for oracy - the ability to express oneself fluently - began with poetry and travel loving parents and an inspiring teacher who recognized potential beyond his science-focused curriculum.
We explore the recent Oracy Commission's proposal that speaking and listening should join reading, writing, and arithmetic as essential educational pillars. Rather than adding to overloaded schedules, Charles shares practical ways these skills can be woven into existing subjects, addressing the growing disconnect between education and workplace needs. As noted, employers increasingly value ‘agility over ability,’ yet many graduates possess impressive grades but struggle to communicate effectively.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Charles shares a deeply moving encounter with a World War II veteran who helped liberate a concentration camp. Through careful listening, Charles discovered the man's lingering trauma and guilt, demonstrating how communication can bridge not just cultural gaps but temporal ones, connecting past suffering with present understanding. The story takes a gentle twist when the veteran hears another side of the story through Charles.
English itself emerges as a fascinating case study in communication evolution. Once a colonial imposition, it has transformed into what Charles describes as ‘a shared tool that people use’ while maintaining their local languages and cultural identities. The International Public Speaking Competition exemplifies this balance, bringing together young people who form cross-cultural friendships while preserving their unique backgrounds.
Whether you're a parent concerned about your child's future prospects, an educator seeking fresh approaches, or simply someone fascinated by human connection, this conversation offers valuable insights into how speaking and listening shape not just our careers, but our very humanity.
Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, dr Kinjal Goel, a psychologist and a writer. Our guest today is Mr Charles Byrne, the Director General of the English Speaking Union. He has taken an unusual path. He studied philosophy, has worked in retail and business, changed direction and has worked with not-for-profit organisations for the last 15 years, and he has continued to study. Clearly, I found someone with a rigorous curiosity in life and the passion to follow it. I personally met Charles at the International Public Speaking Competition in May, thanks to my daughter who participated, and I'm so glad I did. Welcome to the show, charles. It's so nice to have you with me today.
Speaker 2:It's a pleasure to be with you. It's going to be an interesting session.
Speaker 1:Well, I have so many questions, charles, I can't wait to get started. Your field of work is new to many. I'm sure some are curious about it. Some don't even know what to expect. So let me start with the questions. Let's see where they lead us. Okay, like I said in the introduction, your career has spanned so many different things. I mean from Heathrow's Terminal 5 retail to working with charities like the Macmillan Cancer Support, leading the Royal British Legion. You've done so much and of course, we met at the ESU in London. But so many experiences how does all of it come together and help you with your role that you're currently leading at the ESU?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting question. It's what I think about, whether it's just good luck or whether it's the way things work. It seems as if everything that I've done can be useful here, the role that I'm in at the moment. So, whether it's the business aspects of running a shop running a small business, that's really, really important, or whether it's some of the experience I had when working for really big organisations such as the Airport Authority or MacMiddon, where it's all about formal processes, standards, All of that seems to come together and we need all of it here at the English-speaking union. So I'm really fortunate it's all coming together well.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm really, really curious to know what sparked your passion for oracy. I mean, it's not something a lot of people will get inclined towards making their profession, but what made you so passionate about public speaking oracy? Is there any particular moment that inspired you?
Speaker 2:It's a really common story actually. So again, I was fortunate. My father was an engineer but he really loved poetry and my mother was a travel writer and so we grew up with reading and writing and books just as part of the sort of everyday adventure of life, and we would travel and whenever we went somewhere, mum would go and interview people and it's incredibly embarrassing for the children, but we saw that engaging and speaking to people was part of life. And then I had, like so many people, I had one standout, wonderful teacher, a woman called Janet Cocking, and I was studying maths, further maths, physics, chemistry good, good, interesting subjects. But what I really loved was literature and I couldn't fit it into the school day. So I said to her would you teach me? If I can study in my free time, would you come and teach me? She laughed and said look, if you're prepared to study, then I'll teach you, and it was just a pleasure. So I was very lucky.
Speaker 1:Isn't it all it takes sometimes that one teacher who recognizes your spark and just you know kind of lets it ignite further.
Speaker 2:We hear it all the time at the ESU it takes one teacher who encourages that interest and your whole life is sort of changed by that. Yeah, teaching is so important.
Speaker 1:It is, and it's quite sad. Nowadays, you know, when you see children earlier, maybe in my generation, when we were younger a lot of people said what do you want to be when you grow up? And a lot of people said I want to be a teacher. Now, very few people actually honestly say I want to pursue teaching and I really hope we can change that.
Speaker 2:I hope so. It's possibly one of the most important jobs in society. You're right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. You studied philosophy and literature as an undergraduate. You completed an MBA. You studied strategic leadership at the Said Business School in Oxford. You even took part in the Global Strategy Programme with the Royal College of Defence Studies. Do all these academic interests influence how you think about communication, leadership, even international relationships?
Speaker 2:They do, they do. Sometimes things only make sense when you look backwards and you can tie all the bits together. But the Oxford course at the Said Business School that was brilliant and, being Oxford, there was a lot of emphasis on the humanities and the human aspect and language and culture. That is an important part of leadership. The Royal College of Defence Studies I was only able to join that as a part-time student but it was the most amazing, rich curriculum and the students were the other fellow students the members were possibly the best part of it. There were 140 people from over 50 countries around the world, including India, and the chance to work with other people and understand those different perspectives. It was absolutely invaluable.
Speaker 1:So I'm sure that's what gives you the deja vu when you see all these children come together at the ESU. It really does.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing when you study with somebody and you share food and you eat and drink together. You create friendships, and that, almost, is the most valuable thing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I totally hear you, because you start off as strangers and you realize that we're all so similar. I mean, despite all the differences, as long as we can listen and as long as we can talk to each other, it all just melts away. Wow, I'm very curious about something I read when I was looking up the recent Oracy Commission. It proposes that speaking and listening should be included in formal education. So tell me, if we were to speak to school authorities, what would a typical day look like if students practiced talking and listening as much as math and science?
Speaker 2:let's say yes, it's a really good question and it's a worry for some people. So the Oracy Commission has come out to say that oracy speaking and listening should be considered as the sort of forefire alongside reading, writing and arithmetic. And if we can introduce that, I would say, back into the school day, I think it would look much the same as it does today. And if you think about what we did in maths or what we did in science, if you introduce oracy as part of that, it's not something that you do extra, so you would have people standing up and sharing their understanding of a maths problem or explaining to their classmates how this experiment worked in physics or chemistry. So it becomes part of the learning and the sharing. So the day wouldn't change much more, but we would weave it into the work that's already being done, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think it's this fear of adding something to the current curriculum that keeps teachers or even policymakers. They stay a little away from change. But if change is so easy to integrate, I think it just becomes something that everyone can consider. You don't need to add hours, you just need to change what is happening.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely. You know. My wife is a primary school teacher and I know how busy they are. So if somebody says can you do something extra, the answer is no. You know, the day is too full already, but if you can weave this in so that not so we are learning not just from a teacher standing and talking, but from people.
Speaker 1:Learning from each other doesn't add any time also I think it'll help as these students now become employable. I mean most companies now. I mean they want to appreciate and they want to hire people who have better communication skills, over and above their education skills, of course. Um, if schools integrate this and kind of bring the students up to the level of oracy that the world now requires, it'll help everyone. But I don't think we're doing a good enough job yet. So the companies they want agility over ability. They want better speaking skills, better communication skills, but the schools are still churning out students with high grades, with, you know, beautiful marks, and suddenly when they're trying to get a job, it doesn't fit in. So what's your take on this?
Speaker 2:a couple. It's a good question again. There are a couple of aspects to this, I think. Firstly, if we want to make a difference, one of the most powerful things we can do is give teachers the skills and the confidence to bring this in. I think the pressure on teachers is huge nowadays and it seems to get only worse. But if we can train teachers and how they can bring oracy into their classrooms and integrate it into the students' work, I think that gives them the confidence and they can share those skills and then all those young people will learn Oracy as part of what they do. So that's important Teach the teachers and that will help. And then, in terms of the value for employers and in the market, it is so important. We see it all the time. We see it all the time All the interesting problems require more than one mind often to fix them and that means you've got to. Oracy teaches people. So the value for young people as they go into the job market, I think it's absolutely huge.
Speaker 1:Well, true, I couldn't agree more. Now that also brings me to a point which, as a psychologist, is very important to me and I'm sure in Oracy, it matters to you as well. We have so many Zoom meetings happening now. Everything is online. So, as a psychologist, it's very important to me and I'm sure in Oracy, it matters to you as well. We have so many Zoom meetings happening now. Everything is online. So, as a psychologist, what I feel very strongly now is this hypervigilance that we have when we are in a Zoom meeting. We're not just looking at the person in front of us, we're also constantly looking at ourselves. Also, the person in front of us is too close for comfort. So these are the things from a psychologist perspective. But tell me, from your angle of communication, are these things making it easier or more difficult for students or for, you know, people who are in the jobs or whatever? Are they finding it easier or more difficult to communicate in person and online?
Speaker 2:yeah, both, I think, is the answer. So zoom and teams meetings are really, really useful and we see that in what we do. Um, the fact that we can talk like this, it's extraordinary. And we run competitions, uh in the uk and around the world and very often we can use uh online uh for the early rounds so people get the chance to talk, and it's an important part of the world today, for sure.
Speaker 2:And virtual reality, I think, can be useful if we are starting to build people's confidence for speaking in front of an audience. There's interesting developments there. So on the one hand, it can be very, very good and on the other hand, it can be a real barrier. There is nothing more real and sometimes more challenging than a face-to-face meeting, and it can be one-to-one or it can be one-to-five hundred, where you stand up in front of a big group, and I think that human interaction bit can be blunted or lost if we don't make sure we keep it in. So online is very useful, especially over distance, but I think we need both. We have to have the human face-to-face contact as much as we can.
Speaker 1:Well, I hope we can make it a little bit more, because I think people are just falling into this rabbit hole where it's all convenience and it's all ease and that little effort that it takes to meet someone is sort of losing its sparkle. But we need to bring it back. We do, we do, tell me, charles, english is obviously a global language, but language is so deep down tied to identity. Now, from where I come from, english has a very strong sense of colonialism. A lot of people are now saying go back to your roots, talk in your local languages, don't romanticize English so much. I completely agree with the idea that you need to have pride and faith in your own local languages. But isn't the love of English beyond borders, beyond colonialism, and don't we need that one common language to actually get across to each other?
Speaker 2:Yes, we do. You're absolutely right. There is this colonial history to English and the global spread of English is linked to colonialism. But so much has changed and what I can see is the way in which there is something global English and there is Indian English, and the language has become a shared tool that people use and different nations have taken it up and they've adapted it and changed it and it is now this shared tool that we can use to communicate with each other.
Speaker 2:And particularly in a multilingual world and in a multilingual country like India, something like Indian English or International English can be really useful. It means you can keep your local language and your local identity and you also have this other thing which you can use to speak to almost anybody with, and we see it a lot as people move around the world, english can become a valuable way of helping your career, helping you engage in business, in film, in technology, stay in touch with friends and family all over the world. And again, we see it at the ESU that people, young people, they come, they take part in our studies and the competitions and they spread around the world and they use English to keep in touch and everyone's version is slightly different, but it's shared by everybody. Now it's not owned by anybody, so yeah, it is a shared tool. I think Very useful.
Speaker 1:I think I noticed this as well. I mean, when I saw these youngsters for the first time at the ESU, they all were so different. I mean, they were from so many different backgrounds and I really wanted to hear them talk. I wanted to hear their English and when I did, I was pleasantly surprised. I mean, it was so similar and yet so different so you could understand all of them.
Speaker 2:There was not one child I had any trouble understanding and yet you could immediately say okay, they come from here, which is amazing, just like you said, and the pride they have in their country and the joy they have in sharing that, whether it's the stories or the dress or the sweets that they bought. It is a real pleasure to watch that combination of local pride and pleasure and finding a common language to share that with.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Let's talk about migrants now, a sensitive topic, but something I really want to discuss with you. Many migrants learn English when they move to a new country. How do you think mastering English influences their sense of belonging or cultural identity when they're not in their land anymore?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting one. So when my wife was a primary school teacher, we lived in West London and she worked in an absolutely wonderful little school and there were something like over 35 different languages spoken by the parents and the children and it was. It was just a joy. To be honest, things got more difficult as as the children moved into secondary school. But at primary school it was just a pleasure and you could see that the families, the children, the parents who had English or learned English, very, very quickly became part of the community and they shaped the community and they helped make it interesting and they brought elements of their culture. They had a wonderful international day where we bought food and they shared festivals and religious days.
Speaker 2:Those families that engaged helped shape Hanwell as it was, as it is. But those who didn't, I'm sure that you could see that they were more isolated, both in the school and in the community and probably at home. So I think it gives families coming into the country, immigrants coming in, it gives them a voice in the community of which they will be part, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:Well, I agree, Because sometimes you need to be heard. I mean, if you're not speaking the language, you can't communicate, and I mean that's such a it's such a difficult place to be in.
Speaker 2:True, absolutely, absolutely, and that I mean that's such a, it's such a difficult place to be in.
Speaker 1:True, absolutely, absolutely um, charles, I've heard you say that listening carefully and constructive debate are more needed now than ever. So is there any example from your, from your life, you know from the recent past where good communication skills you know, listening, speaking helped you bridge a cultural or personal gap?
Speaker 2:I was thinking about this. There's one. It's unusual, but six years ago I was in a group and we were taking about 300 men and women who had served in the Second World War. We were taking them back to northern France. So this isn't a cultural gap, it's a, it's a, it's a personal bridge, uh, and we were taking these people, these veterans, uh, back to northern france, uh, to commemorate what had taken place.
Speaker 2:I can't remember where I was. We were either on board a ship or we were in one of the large sort of reception areas, but there was one, uh old man who was sitting on his own, uh, um, and he was dressed very normally a lot of people had medals or uniforms, uh, and he would just sat very quietly on his own. So I went to um, sit with him and and talk to him, and he spoke very quietly. You had to lean right in to hear what he was saying and he explained how he felt he shouldn't be there here with everybody else. He didn't think he was heroic, he hadn't landed on the beaches, he't liberated um, a town or a city, and I just had to listen very carefully for quite a while and slowly he explained that, um, he was a very young man I think he must have been 17, maybe even younger, and he had been in the first group of British soldiers which arrived in what had been Nazi Germany. And he arrived at a concentration camp, belsen, and he was driving a bulldozer and as he explained his story he explained how the smell was terrible. And he turned up and he saw the tens of thousands of people who had died or the sort of 15,000 who were still prisoners there and he felt terrible that he could not do more for those who had died, been killed or those who were still just about alive. And he was still captured.
Speaker 2:In that moment we were sitting in wherever we were, but we weren't at all.
Speaker 2:We were right back in that place for him and he was still caught there 75 years later, caught there 75 years later, and he still felt guilty and he felt he didn't deserve to be part of this group. He just felt guilty that he could not do more and he was just weeping with the burden that he carried. And I was working with a friend at the time whose great uncle, his uncle, great uncle Rudy, had been a young boy at Belsen and had said to Daniel when you meet these English soldiers, please, you know, say thank you to them because they saved my life, they liberated me, and I could tell this old man this story that you know. Here was great uncle rudy who said thank you. You know, 75 years later, and it was just wonderful to be able to hear this poor man's story but offer this little element back that maybe helped him um in his life. You know so that that that was an extraordinary bridge between people and between times, between a young boy from Belsen and an old man in France.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean you said you were right there when you were speaking with him, but sitting here in my office, I think I just traveled with you back in place, back in time. It was beautiful. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Speaker 2:You're welcome.
Speaker 1:I completely agree when you say that you know english is so powerful. It's a shared tool for building relationships between people, between nations. Is there any example you want to share with us of how english has brought people together in your work?
Speaker 2:absolutely. Probably the greatest joy is watching the finals, the competitions that we run. So we run a performing Shakespeare competition in the UK, a debating competition that's really, really old, and we also run the international public speaking competition. So we have about 100,000 young people all over the world take part in the IPSC, as we call it, and we hold the finals week in London, and so we have about 40 young people. They've gone through their regional, local, national competitions, as you know, and then they come to London for this week and they start off. When they arrive they don't know anybody and it's quite intimidating.
Speaker 2:And Dartmouth House, where we're based, is quite a grand old building and at first it seems formal and it's intimidating. And we deliberately set up the week so that we give them the opportunity to build friendships, build friendships, and we also run workshops and we teach skills and by the end of the week it is just a joy to watch. Suddenly they formed these friendships. They've been on training, practicing their RSC skills, being conscious of how they use their bodies, how they use their voice, and at the very last, at the end of the week, there's only six left in the competition. But they've all become friends and you see them in this big, grand sort of building sitting on the floor, chatting. They're singing, they're making posters for each other and they own the space. They feel at home in this great space and the friendships that they formed and the understanding and the cultural exchange that they've had over the week. Honestly it's heartwarming and uplifting. It almost makes you want to weep. It's like some TV film. It's so good. So the international public speaking competition is just the best thing.
Speaker 1:Well, I have a personal story from this as well. I mean, saisha was there you've seen her for those six days and she made friends with everybody there and she has traveled a lot even before this. But something changed when we came back from the IPSC and she has very close friends everywhere now. Something happened in Lebanon and she was reading the news and she reacted very differently to it. She reached out to her friend from there and she checked in on her like how are you doing? And she wanted to know how somebody there was feeling and when they. When she realized that life is not as easy for them right now because things are happening not so nice things are happening, she felt it, that empathy. It meant the world to me, because I suddenly knew that here is a child who was growing up to be a world citizen who truly cares.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And this sense of being a world citizen and that friendship which can jump between nations and suddenly there's a person at the other end, not just a report in the news, so important.
Speaker 1:True, well, I loved it.
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 1:Well, in international diplomacy and global settings, having a common language is sometimes not enough, because you need to guarantee understanding. So how do speaking and listening skills, especially empathy, how do these play a role in ensuring true cross-cultural communication?
Speaker 2:Yeah, having a shared language, a shared tool, is really, really helpful, but it's not enough in itself. And you know, we see it all the time, even at home, even within families. Here we all speak the same language and it's really easy to misunderstand each other, or my children have very different perspectives from that which my wife and I do, and so you need a number of things. A shared language is very helpful, but with that we talk about IQq intelligence quotient and that's really useful. So if we've got a, an issue or a problem, bringing some intellect to bear is helpful. Emotional intelligence empathy is also really important, so we can um understand that we're not as rational as we like to think we are at all.
Speaker 2:This is your line of business we think we're clever, but we're actually driven by many other things. And cultural intelligence is really important too, and this takes time and exposure to build up, which is why you're right about global citizens. It's very easy at school to learn the history that we're given. The more we can have friends from around the world and the more that we can read books, understand films from other cultures, that gives us cultural intelligence. So I think we need all of that IQ, eq and cultural intelligence and cultural capital. All of that is needed really.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a fantastic angle for me to consider as well, because giving it a word, you know, you say name it to tame it. So now that you call it the cultural intelligence, it's just so much easier for us to sort of see that we lack or we have it, and wherever it is in abundance, that's where we need to tap in, so lovely. Well, I come back to ai. I'm sorry, but I keep doing this all the time. For me, tech and ai has taken over every aspect of everything. Right now, there are so many translation apps that are voice assistants. I just recently heard there's a new hearing aid which will instantly and in real time translate what is being said and you hear it. Hear it in your own language. Do you see these tools as a challenge to learning oracy or do you think they'll actually help people in the long term?
Speaker 2:Yes, again, both. I think there are real advantages with AI. It can do some extraordinary things, such as a translation to a degree. It can help manage, analyze lots of data Personally and I've got a very strong view on this at the moment and so you cannot subcontract out the, the thoughts that we need to develop, the understanding that we need to develop, and that mental effort actually is the most important part, and so, whether it's writing a speech or preparing a debate or analyzing something, we have to use our own brain to do that, partly because I think, in using our minds, that actually shapes our minds, in the same way that if you have a very physical job, it shapes your body.
Speaker 2:If you use your mind in these ways, it literally in the brain. I'm sure it shapes the brain and it shapes the mind, but also that's where the the um, the joy and the real value lies. There's a wonderful woman I've worked with called patsy rodenberg um, she's the voice coach, has been the voice coach for the royal shakespeare company and others, and she's got a book out it's been out for a long time, I think called Presence, and she talks about being present with someone or a group of people and that's the interaction that is enjoyable and it feeds the brain and it feeds yourself. I think AI could get in the way of that exchange self.
Speaker 1:I think AI could get in the way of that exchange. I came across something very interesting recently that as long as we were all engaged in physical labour, there were no gyms, and suddenly we gave these out to machines and to help and then we had to all go for a workout. Similarly, now, when we start outsourcing our mental efforts, we'll probably have to designate that one hour to reading or to writing and say this is my mental gym and now I need to do this so that my brain doesn't rot so well.
Speaker 2:We are in for change, that's for sure yes, I think it's a shame, I think we it should be for me that that mental um, it's not, it's, I can't dance, but it's more like dance it's a joy. It shouldn't be a chore that we do. This should be a part of the great pleasure of of the day absolutely well.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question, charles, that I absolutely love asking every guest on my podcast. It's something I have gotten beautiful answers to.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm sure you've heard of a physical first aid box yes something in which you would keep your painkillers, your antiseptics, you know, for those minor cuts and bruises, when you can take care of yourself. What if you were to have a mental first aid box in which you keep things which would make you happy immediately, you know, for those little days when you're run down, you're low and you need a pick-me-up? What would yours look like?
Speaker 2:I think I well I know I would. I turn to poetry. Uh, um, I don't know if that sounds odd and it can be different poems at different times, but there is something about um, a concise, beautifully written poem that sort of stops me in my tracks and makes me pause and think and look about me. And there's a wonderful poem by David White called Start, close In. Or there are the wonderful haiku poems from Basho or any number of poets by English writers, and it just makes me stop and pause and take a moment.
Speaker 1:Wow. So this would be a box that maybe I might borrow someday. Well, on a lighter note, let me take you into a rapid fire round no thinking you've got to answer real quick. Okay, tell me the most difficult of all what's your favorite book?
Speaker 2:I don't have a single favorite book. I'm sorry, I'm gonna cheat it's. I've got a a range of books I love. There's books of poetry, uh. There's jj carr's a month in the country. There's JJ Carr's A Month in the Country. It's short and it's beautiful. The Old man and the Sea by Hemingway Again, that's short and it's beautifully written. So I'll have a number, please arrange.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll give you that one, your favourite movie character.
Speaker 2:I don't have a favourite movie. I'm not very good at watching movies. I'll go with other people, but I don't think I don't have a favorite movie. I'm not very good at, uh, watching movies.
Speaker 2:I'll go with other people but, um, I don't have one, sorry well, we'll give you that as well, your greatest pet um, maybe this is spending too much time in London, but I find it really annoying when people are loud, inconsiderate, rude, whether that's shouting loudly on the train or riding their electric bicycle past other people on the zebra crossings. Just slow down and notice people around you, wow.
Speaker 1:The one thing you believed in, but no longer do.
Speaker 2:I think I honestly used to think that there was some sort of natural justice and that good things happen to good people, and I don't think it's true. Life will be hard for all of us at some times, and that matters because really the good is the only good. The only good is the good that we make. So I wish it were different, but I think it's up to us to make the world good.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's really profound. I mean it could be a poem by itself. Your most prized possession your most prized possession.
Speaker 2:I have a 1972 vw camper van which is old, it's unreliable, it's rusty, it needs work, but it's my joy, and we take it camping with. They're not children anymore, but the family uh, my wife just about tolerates it, but it it's adventure. And it adds to the joy, doesn't it? She will come, she will come, but it's time together it's adventure, it's fun, how lovely.
Speaker 1:Well, there's also something I do. At the end of my podcast, I leave the floor open for you to ask me a question that you would like to ask me as a psychologist.
Speaker 2:There you go. I think it's always good to see if we can bend the rules a bit. So I've possibly got two, if I'm allowed to see how we go. See how we go. Do you find that, even in a, in a place like this, which is, uh, very safe, you're, you're warm, you're engaging, you make it easy? Do you sometimes find that the people you're talking to end up in places they weren't expecting or discovering things about themselves that they weren't, that they weren't expecting to discover?
Speaker 1:um, let me answer your way yes and no, both. I've. I've had a lot of people ask for questions beforehand. So that helps in two ways. One, they know what to expect. Some people also write down what they're going to say, so it helps them purge the initial thought and then they are more in touch with what they were really thinking in the first place. The conversations are easier.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I've had guests answer a question, go back, rethink it and say I want to answer this differently, and then they come back with a completely different answer, and both the answers are true to them. So I enjoy that the most. You know when somebody has rethought something and come up with something which just means more to them in that moment. So that's beautiful, I think. Also, some people say that they don't want to hear the questions, and you know they want to do it impromptu. Those conversations also have a very different feel to them because you're thinking together. It's in real time. So sometimes I find myself changing my questions altogether. Those are more conversational. But yes, it happens. People discover places that they didn't expect and it's nice. It's always a pleasure to explore it with them. So the psychologist in me is happy, the podcaster in me is happy, so it's a good space.
Speaker 2:That sounds good and I think it's probably more interesting and rewarding for both sides, because then it's more of a more of a conversation. Yes, that can lead me slightly into this. The second question, if you can, if I'm allowed to, which is that, um, it sometimes seems as if we've got more than one mind going on, uh, and we can be very, very busy thinking uh front of the brain, uh, analyzing, pushing, calculating, uh, and it might be as I get older, it might be it's always thinking at the front of the brain, analysing, pushing, calculating, and it might be as I get older it might be it's always there, almost as if there's another part of the mind or the brain that runs much more slowly and it notices things. It asks questions less, but it notices more, and maybe, as I say, that's getting older and watching the seasons in England change and roll through the countryside. Does that make sense? Is there any science behind that thought?
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I mean. For me this is a very visual question. I know, right now you're sitting in a beautiful place like Worcestershire and you've got these rolling hills and meadows around you Worcestershire, and you've got, you know, these rolling hills and meadows around you. And you do spend most of the week in London where you have pace. You have a requirement to finish something. You know everything is quick. So this is exactly how our brain is.
Speaker 1:There are two ways in which we live. One is the London of your life and one is the Worcestershire of your life. But you need both. One is the analytical, questioning, rapid mind. This is the one that gets promoted, that you get paid for, that you create with. The other is the mind which bears witness. It's the quieter mind, it's the mind which sees. Now, you can't have either one taking over completely. You can't have a mind which is only bearing witness but not doing anything at all. You can't have a mind which is constantly doing without observing, seeing, seeking or, you know, absorbing. So you need both. I'm sure you wouldn't survive or thrive if you were to choose only one of your two homes. You would want to be in both places in equal measure. So it's the quiet mind which heals us. As a psychologist, I know that wellness it comes from the quietude. But you also need a sense of purpose, and that comes from your busy mind. So keep both, I mean feed both, hone both, and I think that's how your balance is struck.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful. Thank you, that's a there's a good exchange. That's a lovely gift for me to have. Thank you, that's really good.
Speaker 1:And this was one of the most amazing conversations for me. Like you asked, has anybody explored areas which were unsuspecting? Well, I think this was one for me when I started off exploring the ESU with my daughter. Oracy is not a word we used very easily. It's not a common word that we use. We know skills that are oratory skills, we know good orators, but as a noun, oracy is not something which we come across and I said this is real, this is as concrete as it gets, and I'm so glad we could talk about it, we could explore it, we could analyze it in spaces which I never thought were possible. So thank you for your time and thank you for sharing all these thoughts with me.
Speaker 2:It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 1:It's been a real pleasure. It's been rewarding and interesting. I've really enjoyed it, kajal. Thank you very much. It's been my pleasure, charles, and I'm also going to be adding a video at the end of this podcast. I'll be adding it as a link in the bio, also on YouTube, so our listeners can click that and see the IPSC finals video of 2025.
Speaker 2:I hope we can do that, because it's a wonderful, very short little video. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you, Charles.
Speaker 2:Great pleasure, thank you.
