Detangle by Kinjal

Detangle with Javed Akhtar Sahab

• Buzzsprout • Season 5 • Episode 6

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0:00 | 42:20

What if you could hold a crowd without a single cheap trick? We sit with Javed Akhtar Sahab to map the winding road from assistant director ambitions to a life built on sentences that sing. The story isn’t mythic; it’s practical; debate notes turned into letters, small rewrites on film sets, ghostwritten gags, and the gradual recognition that words were the real vocation.

We dig into the ethics of clarity: how the same values speak different dialects depending on who’s listening. Javed Sahab explains something crucial - mass appeal doesn’t require vulgarity- and shows how attention is earned with structure, stakes, and rhythm. Deadlines become a surprising muse, revealing how urgency can kindle discipline when inspiration fails. Then the lens tightens on craft: the illusion of ease in songwriting and poetry, the patient drills no one sees, and the way a single word carries an entire neighborhood of memories into the listener’s mind.

There’s sharp honesty here too. A self-described hardcore feminist, Javed Sahab shares why writing women-centered stories has been a struggle, tracing it to a childhood surrounded by strong, empowered women and a late awareness of domestic violence. That candor opens a larger look at mental first aid; how to name sharp traumas, how to notice slow-burn pain that stains the days, and when professional help is the wiser tool. We close by uniting passion and precision: poetry as the music of language, music as mathematics, and the creative paradox that demands both surrender and surgery. If you care about lyric writing, screenwriting, public speaking, or simply choosing better words, this conversation hands you a durable toolkit: read widely, memorize masters, respect the audience, and let the right kind of fear focus your work.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who writes, and leave a review with your favorite line; you’ll help others find the conversation and keep the craft alive.

Follow on Instagram @detangle_by_kinjal

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Detangle, where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time. I'm your host, Dr. Kinjal Goel, a psychologist and a writer. Inka introduction, Karnikili Janik Apse Manaturtha, Likin Jab Karniki Koshishki, Nani Adage, Hindi Puri Napadi, English Puri Napadi, Likin eight Shapse Naidosi Hogi, Woshapta, etcetera. Kunki Javit Sape awards, Unka Kam, Unki accomplishments, inko list karne, etcetra nebada sadia. Bharat Sarkarne Javit Sapko, Padma Bushan, Padma Shri, Donos and Avazahe. Aj Shaqsiat Hamarisa D Tangle Pehe, Suchme, Hamari Kush Kismatihe. Aku Ajam host Kerpa and Javit Sab, thank you very much. Ik Moka Milahe, Apse Kuch Bati Karinge, Kutchapse sikinge. Psychology or music kibar me apse kuch saval karinge. Welcome, sir. Uh Javit Sab Aku initially lyricist Banna, Ya Likak Banna. Ya upku cub realize who are ki apne yehi upna profession banana hai, aki family mate at writers who personally cub ye realize who.

SPEAKER_00:

Me jab uh college met her to many uh debaters, so you write your speech first, so you become clear about what you are saying. So I used to write my speeches in the beginning uh and then stopped doing it, but uh kept writing speeches for my friends, younger sisters, younger brothers, and so on. And then uh I was at a time in Bhopal where most of the romances were by correspondence uh meeting physically was a rare happening. So letters letter letters uh many writing experience. Then when I came to Bombay, I had decided during my college days that I'll finish my graduation and then go to Bombay, join either Mr. Raj Kapoor or Bimal Roy as uh sorry, uh Gurutak as an assistant director, and I'll learn uh filmmaking and then I'll become a director. Anyway, unfortunately, when I came to Bombay within seven, eight days, ten days, Mr. Gurudak passed away. I did not meet, even saw Mr. Raj Kapoor for the first five or six years, and then I became an assistant somewhere else. And uh when I used to work as an assistant on a meager salary of 50 rupees per month or 100 rupees per month, so I complete script or teaching set page or scenes, dialogue writer page. So director sometimes used to be unhappy with a particular scene. So just to prove my utility, I would suggest that rewrite. So and everybody who knew me would tell me that you should become a writer. Even when I was jobless, I used to get some small uh uh uh ghostwriting works for comedians, for funny scenes, comedy scenes, and so on. So this was one extra source of income for me. And then gradually, because there was such peer pressure, and everybody was sure that I'll become a writer and I should become a writer. And Saleem Shaab, I met Saleem Shah during this time. He also encouraged me to a great extent, and then ultimately we became partners and started writing.

SPEAKER_01:

How beautiful, how beautiful that the journey happened on its own. Um, or a commercial bandwidth who is an audience, but a tightrope walk hotahuga, you see balance karte, or audience.

SPEAKER_00:

I'll give you an example. You are a psychologist. Suppose you are invited for a seminar or a symposium, you will speak in a different language. But if you are uh invited to a college where they are first-year students, you will speak to them, you will make your metaphor comparatively easy because then it will read them. Then you are asked to go to a village and talk to the mothers there that how they should handle their children and what are the complications of motherhood and so on and so on, and bringing up the children and so on. Then you will use some other kind of language. Your value system will remain the same, but you will see to it that when you are talking to uh a particular segment of society, your particular people, your language or your uh expression should be within their reach. Now talking to or addressing a larger audience doesn't give you permission, at least to me. Doesn't give me the permission to be uh to be indecent, to be clean, to be crude, to be stupid. So we can be sensible, we can be aesthetic, we can be artistic, even while addressing a crowd of Tellac people. It's possible. You can make a good, decent, sensible, intelligent, entertaining film, because you see, people don't have much uh uh a very large attention span, particularly about things which don't matter them immediately. Right. Uh then you have to keep the attention, you have to keep the interest. Now, whether you are making a public speech or you are showing them a three-hour long film, it's the same. Can you hold their attention? And if you can hold the attention without being cheap, without being crude, without being indecent, that's wonderful. And I don't think it is necessary to be cheap or crude or vulgar to hold the attention.

SPEAKER_01:

And you are a living example of that. You have an example of a beautifully lived life. Or successful.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not like this, but simple bathie hairaheap and joy, up many battery. Agarap ki uh that that will not work. Or if you have uh some kind of a delusion of grandeur, then too you will not be able to connect with people. You should uh realize that you're all right, but it doesn't matter. You are not a genius. And uh you should be keen enough to connect with people. You should have some respect for them. So, if you have a lot of people, if you look at this. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, as a psychologist, writing, dancing, painting, inherent work, talent, writing is a lot of hard work. So, processing daily.

SPEAKER_00:

And for two hours or three hours I'll write, and then I'll go for lunch, then I'll take a little rest, and then I'll come back to my writing table. It has never happened. I my source of inspiration is the deadline. When it comes too near, then I get scared that now perhaps I won't be able to finish the work, and that makes me work. They come together to save you. So tapta goes, fantasy, like in what techni puri we took. Okay, yes, he can fully uh be saving other ladia, the can go to rare hair, I'm tossing the wanted gana license, license bohaty saying you uh many wakai dust minute can the license. Or would chelemia gana. So exhibit yen I deckte kidney asat kisski. Practice would you practice you preparation at the yari book it near. Yen I deckte kidneyazat kiski. Log asan samadjate asani co a asani asaniati Hamasha or both mirmanti but a tea piasum tete. Unki unliope got triple with young age on a rose art country, no country, rose, tetarkimashki. Art no counte rose. Apne poetry paliki. A hamlo poetry sun let me soon never be gone so you kafini apne poetry palhi, palna sunnaviti, subte muskame, palna up the poetry kitabli palha, a share ku barba, happen so chat, your words a youth ya, your words me floor musicality kume, it's arrangement here, he did up, a chante word. They say words are for a poet, what paint starts for a uh colours are for a painter. To eat to upon keep words are like people. Words will name your dictionary man. Words still both other hum they can up or trace career, maybe it called hair can. This is her work. Magar Uskarava be a both kuchikara, say her word pays responsibility here. This particular meaning will be conveyed by you. Apple. Now your responsibility, apple, sound apple, to turn into a word by conveying the meaning of our red-looking fruit. So meaning word ka job word job. Like you and me, word is also known by the company it has kept. Oh, how beautiful! So as an eye, then us keep history. Now being a sake artist, I'm you're the right person whom I should uh uh tell this that you are aware much more than me that every word makes not many references in your subconscious. Cut, cut, cut, cut, connect to electric uh lightning speech, apple. So apples to apple apples subconscious memory, epicata, but choke apple, then I have to be blah blah blah blah blah blah but chito. Hamfara hill station, apple, orchestra, what a beautiful place is. So everything rushes to you. A good writer should know that what kind of references this word will make in the subconscious of an average reader.

SPEAKER_01:

Into a world where everything is precious. Her shabb important hair, each audience ka respect important hair, to ek shab ka respect important hair. Agar under says, I to her feel kitni sundarti.

SPEAKER_00:

Language Rasi and familiar translated. Sarsari tum jahan se gudre. Sar Sari means cursory. You pass through this world in a cursory manner. Sarsari Tum Jahant se gudre. Varna harja jahan digartha. Otherwise, at every step there was another world. Oh, how beautiful. You walk through this world in a very cursory manner. You did not notice.

SPEAKER_01:

You did not say that.

SPEAKER_00:

Say batter. At every step, it was another word. I must make an honest confession. Or just so much maniah. You are a psychiatrist, you may be able to help me to understand it. I am a hardcore feminist. And I am almost fanatically proving it. Because I feel that this world and the societies and history and centuries have given a very raw deal to them. And even today, things have slightly improved, but there's a long way to go. But in spite of this empathy, I don't find myself very capable of writing female-oriented stories. It must be because in my impressionable age, after perhaps nine or ten, uh I never left with families. Women who were in my family were very empowered women. I have not seen them suffering. My mother, my aunts, uh my cousins, all of them were very strong, bold, uh working women. Uh and educated women with their political and social opinions and so on. And I have never seen any of like, would you believe it? That I have been, I mean, an orphan, I was an orphan at a very young age, so I have lived in different families, I have lived in different cities with different families and so on. But till the age of 2021, I had no idea. I did not have the faintest idea that there is something like domestic violence. I didn't know that. Because I mean Padahua Palavana, many to kiss you husband to open be a bit cut to me. Or would you have kissy all says the curte? So many to kabi starakinita Majapalabala. So shad is what they say, Meri your sensitivity have been totally first hand experience. I know as an educated person that what has happened in the world and what is happening and so on, and uh my personal experience domestic violence and uh uh almost compulsive five Peter's. I have failed to write one good script about uh uh a woman's issue. I have so far I have never written it, which is a kind of a contradiction. I don't know, it uh it's a question with me, but uh I don't have any um convincing answer. At least self-awareness, awareness to it.

SPEAKER_01:

Awareness to it. First step, psychology name it to tame it. So up first step to Lili, name to Debia. Um uh as a psychologist, uh usually up my clients, podcast guests go, we always tell them first aid kit who is a good thing. This may make bandit, painkiller, sablon huta, kicker chota, so image to scope haramile. So mental first aid kid traumatic raha ho, see then mood come to Agar Rapko as a mental first aid kid banana ho?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh could do so, I can phone. Uh, incident somebody dies, somebody is uh is uh fatally uh unwell and you know terminal disease, whatever. Or eight incidents, it inflammation. It is easier to get over that. You can rationalize it, you can stop thinking about it. Likinaker, zindigimatire diri, dirigire color change. No, you don't know what to do about it. And y kit palmehura, yebiniapakalpati, kidhasturuhura, yebiam nipakalpati. Usme pirapko jute bahane bananepate akili y sedent duhua. Who incident up got to kini? Apko to kh, but say up each desert by Kali to Kiapko e particle Utake sandase. If you was a hey sala, if you just a desert nine or each particle upka capital. Lake you billions and trillions and trillions.

SPEAKER_01:

They are like minor cuts and injuries. Unbanditsakte. Like in Joe Kuch Buddy injuries, Jin Kelly professional help cha.

SPEAKER_00:

Nay, woo Isa. Magar baza, Are maybe bit. Magaru kizdinhu to Satra Tiapka apotoni patatela. Es a dukviote. Ari, you took it nager, yikabuata, but any until anabrabsk. And you are very disappointed, you can rationalize it, you can get over it. Lakin up co yahato yeni malunki incident. Bayagarapu Malunkapko Kia to Apapai Laskan Leggy. Lake Yabapu Naima Lum, Lakin Wahora. To who but Jandato Jata. Or shy cat me pijata lies down on that uh truth couch or Piru Usebatata, but one me to marry you believe to Nepality U Logone to Marikarwalon Taki pig diti bar, Tomtepuchi Baba Duk to me, I tuck.

SPEAKER_01:

Kisiko yeah awareness ho ki unhe said to Hamunki kuchmatkarpe. Through our work, that is our job.

SPEAKER_00:

Mine Bhaija, he's a psychoanalyst. Oh. Actually, he is a very, very learned man. Uh he's a psycho psychoanalyst trainee, US me. He is in Philadelphia, he's written more than 100 books, and he's a very, very celebrated and honored psychoanalyst, gives lectures in all the leading universities of the world, and so on. So, Philadelphia, I asked him to teach me. So he gave me a lecture of say 15 minutes. Reject it, delete it. But will I be I be able to write the way I do?

SPEAKER_01:

I think this is so beautiful because I wanted to ask you.

SPEAKER_00:

Is there some language to language to be sunini, sicini? Sunni or siki hair. So upka output hair, what to Apanda say Yana or Khisi Igan. Or Joapki morality, Apki aesthetic, ablook, a chasab Raja or Ranik, to make up personal hoga hoga.

SPEAKER_01:

See Bilkoy.

SPEAKER_00:

Raja Bohi Bolega, Jo Apka Sheila. Agarcharaja, to Jo Apka concept of justice, eh, Raja Gohi Fasera. With a woman, Ap Raja Ranish. Raja Kenya Disky Khania, Api eh could be buto apse. So uh uh my lickle town, yeah licks a town, this comes the appreciation. Will I be able to write that if I am a more resolved person? If I am totally at peace with myself, if I don't have some uh demons in me which are haunting me all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

I write and uh I have also tried poetry for a long time, for 20 years nearly. And some of my closest friends, whenever I send them a new poem or a new write-up, only a few of them will call me and say, Are you okay? And they know resolve.

SPEAKER_00:

I've left it behind. But if it is good and if it appeals to people who are connoisseurs, then it has come from the heart.

SPEAKER_01:

I agree. There is no midway. It is either. Is there anything that is compulsory?

SPEAKER_00:

You should you want to be a poet? Read poetry of all kinds. And if you can, you better buy heart the poetry. Classic poetry, modern poetry, postmodern poetry, the both blah moments of poetry, our language, the progressive writer's poetry, up Baharki poetry, you have translated me. How can you be a good painter with very limited colours? Then gradually, when you will read, keep on reading masters and repeating their poetry and reciting their poetry, you will know how they used to put words together. Ultimately, poetry is the music of language. Or usme talti hair, wohi uti uti hai music. Yes, some poetry on one level is music. And music and poetry both at one level are pure mathematics. Pure yeto manic, Pythagoras, and mathematics upon each other. Hamari had to create art same unumited imagination, fantasy, um, uh romance, uh, passion. But on the other hand, every art has craft also. True. And now they are in a way paradoxical, they are contradictory. Passion wants complete forgetfulness, complete getting absorbed in the uh topic or subject or emotion. Why craft wants complete objectivity and logic and has a almost surgical attitude towards creation? So ostensibly uh uh contradictory, but the fact is that this uh uh all kind of art is produced in this paradox. So, artist on some level is schizophrenic, milk, partnership makamuta craft and art, complete awareness, complete forgetfulness, complete uh calculation, complete uh involvement, unconditional involvement. So yi don't sari kam each sodi that creates art. So ab do sakta, my passion, who romance fantasies and dreams, eh? Like in chap kipas who craft you in post sahita vehicle, craft, your art school, eh, your dance schools, the music schools, uh vocal quality operation. So craft. Learning poetry means reading, arting, uh understanding, appreciating the usage of words, the musicality of language. To masters here, who see up thinking it can char filming up char Gaza, Joke Body Mediocre Gaza Gati singers who apnea such the poet or tea bat the dancer could train chaye, the musician could train cha, the singer could train kay, apke training.

SPEAKER_01:

Art or science me donoki zero teacher, e ginyan yang jessa, rishta hejo chal Ray Dunya me. But some balance karke beautifully zero. As we close detangles podcast today, psychologists try to make a share so long with your psychologist or human nature.

SPEAKER_00:

You are only one step away from the happiness.

SPEAKER_01:

Do lines make good shabdom make it in his emotions.

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