(00:00.034):
They don't see it this way. Why? Why don't they see it as just a disagreement? Because of this whole thing about introjects and everything being so extreme—because of splitting and the lack of integration between good and bad. They lose sight of all the good aspects of their partner; they just disappear. That's part of splitting. It could have been there just five minutes ago, and they could have really appreciated you, looked forward to seeing you, loved you, but when they're splitting, all of that disappears in the moment.

(00:42.062):
Hello everyone, welcome to the Narcissism Decoder. I'm your host, Dr. Anthony Mazzella. Today, I'm excited to bring you part two of my interview with Lisa Taylor Austin. Lisa is a highly respected psychotherapist in private practice, where she integrates her experience as an EMDR-trained therapist to help clients navigate their mental health challenges. Alongside her clinical work, Lisa shares her insights on her video channel, where she educates and empowers a wider audience.

(01:12.162):
What I'm about to play for you is part two of our discussion on some key concepts that are crucial to understand if you're dealing with narcissistic characteristics—either your own or perhaps someone close to you in your life. I strongly encourage you to check out part one, which is available on Lisa's channel. I'll include a link to her channel in the show notes below, where you can find that episode and other fascinating material she’s created.

(01:38.836):
Our discussion was quite extensive, so I've divided it into two segments. What I'm about to play is the first cut of part two of this interview. This is where we delve deeper into how narcissistic patterns of projection, introjection, and splitting manifest in relationships, and we also explore effective approaches for managing and understanding these traits. Without further ado, here’s our discussion. I hope you find it insightful and thought-provoking.

(02:37.144):
Hello. In today’s video, we'll be discussing narcissistic personality disorder. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Lisa Taylor Austin, licensed psychotherapist and expert witness. I’ll be talking today with my special guest, Dr. Anthony Mazzella, a psychoanalyst in New York City who treats people with narcissistic personality disorder, or NPD. Dr. Mazzella also has a successful podcast called The Narcissist Decoder. It's so nice to speak with you today, Dr. Mazzella.

(03:05.474):
Hi, Lisa. I'm really happy to be back again. I have very fond memories of our last conversation. I'm really glad you gave me this opportunity for us to talk about this a bit more.

(03:35.692):
Yes, I'm very excited. And just to let our listeners know, we talked previously about introjects in narcissistic personality disorder and also about splitting. I don't know if you want to do a recap or just refer people back to that.

(03:35.692):
If people haven't had the opportunity, because we went into much more detail than this brief recap, I would suggest they listen to part one. In part one, we introduced the complex concept of introjects, how they are established, their meaning, their role in our lives today, and how to work with them. We didn't go too deep into working with them because we ran out of time, but we're hoping to do that today. Lisa has more thought-provoking questions.

(04:03.852):
I would say let's jump into your questions, and we'll review as we go forward. For anyone interested in a deeper dive into introjects and splitting, definitely check out part one.

(04:26.008):
Thank you, and I want to comment that your explanation of introjects and splitting is unlike any other I’ve heard before. I really encourage people to listen to it because it was helpful for me, and I know it will be for many others as well.

(04:55.488):
Thanks for saying that. I think what I shared was different because often, in social media content, it's rare for people to provide a theoretical framework for why someone behaves the way they do. Descriptions of behavior and reactions are common, but understanding and treating someone with these behaviors requires a guiding theory. That’s why we needed to understand introjects and how they play out.

(05:24.514):
So, thanks, Lisa, for pointing that out. That’s the value of having a theory in mind. You talked about objects, object constancy, and objects that occur. For those with narcissistic personality disorder, it seems as though they have a damaged sense of self. So I wonder, do they experience themselves as a whole person, or do they experience themselves as an object?

(05:54.058):
That’s a great question. Let me answer with an example. Let’s say you meet a new person, and you have these “bad” or malignant introjects. As I mentioned in part one, introjects easily get projected because this critical voice, this way of thinking about yourself, isn’t well integrated, which lends itself to projection.

(06:22.836):
So, when you get into a new relationship, you project this “bad” introject onto the other person. The other person becomes what we call a fantasy external object—they're not seen as a whole person. We talked about this earlier in terms of seeing them as a caricature; you just see the worst aspects, amplified in your mind. This projection happens because of these bad feelings inside you that are intolerable, so you project them.

(06:50.764):
So, when you meet someone new, you’re not really meeting someone new; you’re seeing them through the lens of these malignant introjects. As a result, they appear dangerous, untrustworthy, or depriving—whatever you experienced with significant caregivers in your childhood. Because you see them this way, you may actually become frightened of them.

(07:20.632):
This is what we call the projective-interjective cycle, a malignant cycle that needs to be broken. I'm answering your question by first talking about how you see others—because that’s the projection. Yes, you see other people as objects because you project parts of your bad self onto them. But then, to defend yourself against these bad objects, you may become angry, hostile, dismissive, or withdrawn.

(08:19.978):
This makes the other person angry at you because you’re devaluing or dismissing them, and they're more likely to leave. That’s why it’s a cycle. It perpetuates itself. It’s like the old expression, “The best defense is a strong offense.” You come on strong, and it keeps this vicious cycle going.

(09:45.1):
I’ll pause for a second. What are your thoughts or reactions to that?

(10:00.782):
It seems this is why people with NPD constantly seek the perfect relationship. Things start well, but then they project negativity onto their partner. If they have a disagreement, the person with NPD doesn’t see it that way; they project their negative view onto the other person, and then the relationship deteriorates.

(10:30.154):
Exactly. They don't see it as just a disagreement because of splitting and the lack of integration between good and bad. They lose sight of all the good aspects of their partner. That’s part of splitting—it could have been there just five minutes ago, and then it disappears in the moment.

(11:21.134):
This also explains why people with NPD often forget the good things their partner has done for them over the years; they only remember the most recent negative impression.

(11:49.314):
Exactly. This leaves people in relationships with them feeling very wounded and questioning whether they were ever loved. When the person with NPD is in that split state of mind, all the good memories disappear.

(12:18.678):
To continue, the cycle involves projection—putting what’s intolerable inside oneself onto others—and then introjection, taking in more negative experiences that reinforce existing negative introjects. As a result, nothing changes; the internal world remains as it was, filled with terrifying images and destructive attitudes. The cycle perpetuates itself.

(13:45.752):
In normal development, early positive experiences lead to a more friendly attitude toward others. But for those with personality disorders, early frustrations and deprivations keep them stuck in a fragmented sense of self. When you work with these individuals, you realize they are aware something is off within themselves, but they often blame others for their feelings.

(15:44.138):
They can become offended and defensive quickly. That’s why it’s essential to help break this projective-interjective cycle. We need to create space for good experiences to enter and reduce splitting by integrating good and bad aspects.

(17:27.16):
So, in psychoanalytic theory, the first step is to appreciate their subjective experience. This involves containment—slowing things down and detoxifying aggression. We then give it back to them in a way they can understand without feeling attacked. This is a crucial part of therapy with people who have NPD.

(23:57.228):
We distinguish between real behavior and imagined behavior, which helps them understand the difference between their projections and reality. This leads to a different relational experience and can help break the projection-introjection malignant cycle.

(26:20.718):
Disclaimer: The Narcissism Decoder podcast is for general information purposes only. It is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any psychological condition related to narcissism. For specific advice, consult a professional.