Ep 13. How to coach using simple principles

Our guest on this episode is Coach Michael Zigomanis, a former professional hockey player turned youth hockey coach. He was with the Pittsburgh Penguins when they won the Stanley Cup in 2009. Since that time, he has coached kids from 11-18 at A/AA/AAA levels.

Coach Ziggy, as he is known, has thought deeply about hockey and how to coach. We talk about his rules for players, his approach to practice planning, his power skating technology, and finally, John Wooden, the winningest coach in college basketball.

Although Coach Ziggy uses simple principles for developmental coaching and skills coaching, he finds them very difficult to implement.

Coaching Call is a show about coaching grassroots hockey.  We believe in using sport to make players better people on and off the ice. Your hosts are David Trombley, a coach with 30 years of experience at all levels and ages, and Susan Sim, a new house league coach. Submit your questions at http://newcoach.ca/ or in the comments.

The vidcast is available on YouTube.

Follow Mike Zigomanis on these channels.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikezigomanis/?hl=en

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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newhockeycoach/
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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 5:56 How Coach Ziggy got his start
• 8:52 Supporting your skils coach with behavioural issues
• 11:38 Two Rules: Have Fun and Work Hard
• 12:34 Personality changes in players around 13-15
• 19:15 Coach Ziggy's approach to practice planning
• 28:08 Power skating was Mike's rehab post-surgery
• 39:25 Mike's coaches while growing up
• 42:44 Players and coaches learn from social media
• 49:27 John Wooden
• 1:05:07 Let players play the game
• 1:08:49 Coaching to win vs coaching for player development
• 1:15:22 Sign off

Transcript

Susan: Welcome to Coaching Call, our podcast where we answer your questions about coaching hockey. More than skills and drills, we coach for connection and character on and off the ice. Welcome to our listeners. Our guest today is Mike Zigomanis. Welcome.

Mike: Thanks for having me.

Susan: David, how about you introduce Mike to us?

David: As you know, obviously a player that has been very passionate with hockey ever since he's been a young kid gone through the professional ranks and is now coaching kids. I think he's a great addition to any kid who has an opportunity to work with Mike and I highly recommend Mike, these days.

Susan: That's amazing. So what we want to talk about with Mike today is how you came to be where you are now, and also the challenges that you've encountered with coaching. Cause you've been a player for many years, so you've been the recipient of a lot of coaching.

Yeah. And now you are coaching yourself, and I want to talk about,what the transition was like and things that you've learned as you've made that transition. So as, David alluded to, you played hockey from a young age and made it all the way to the NHL, and you have a Stanley Cup ring.

Mike: Yes.

Susan: So you have a lot of hockey experience in contrast to somebody like me who, I started hockey coaching cause my son's team needed a coach. and so that's how I got started in hockey. I study hockey. I don't play it. I can skate well enough to go from one end of the ice to the other. And that's about it. and when I use my hockey stick, people always ask me, have you got the right stick? I had to learn how to run lines. I had to learn how to get kids on and off the ice. I had to learn how to open the door on those benches. 

Mike: Yeah, it's, it can be challenging. I have a couple of friends that are new to the coaching world. Don't know how to skate. Never put skates on. They go out there. They get them on. They can barely stand up. I love watching it. I feel like oh these things are so basic and you'll pick them up.

It's no issue and then I'll watch a couple practices and they're like, what do I do? How do I start? And I'm like, there's so much information online right now compared to the late 80s and 90s. The resources are unlimited and maybe that can even confuse a lot of coaches, especially if they're new.

But watching new coaches, I love it. I love watching volunteers. I get out on the ice almost every day. And, yeah, I know some coaches that have never played.John Cooper is a lawyer. He's doing pretty good in Tampa Bay. Anybody can do it, I feel.

You have the passion, you have the willingness to muscle through a lot of the administration stuff and the parents. I'm kidding. The parents have been great with me. I haven't had any issues so far. Deal with the families and making sure everybody gets their skates on. I don't know what ages you're doing, but yeah, those small little things that you don't really think about.

Speaking about skates, I don't tie any of the kids skates. I coach a U 12 team. The, Markham Waxers, AAA with Raffi Torres, and half the team still gets their skates tied. None of the kids have asked me yet. I think they're still scared. None of them really talked to me yet. Whenever I'm addressing the room, they're like super quiet.

Or if I pull a player over to help them with some skills. But yeah, there's this, the whole, that whole other side to coaching where it's not just going on the ice, going to the board and showing a drill. Like you mentioned, all those, the things you had to learn, right? What lines to put out, getting the players together, doing a practice plan, opening the doors. yeah, there's a lot more to it. 

A lot of stuff I'm doing right now is mostly skill work. So going and working with a team once a week. And usually there's a goaltending coach on the ice. So they take just inside the blue line. So I have three quarters of an ice to do skills work. And that's mostly what I'm doing with half dozen teams.

And then I'm on the bench with, like I said, the U12s. Might go on with the U15 waxers. I'm working with them and I've worked with the team in Pete Rooney for a couple years. So

Susan: And what levels are these?

Mike: I'll work with anything from, like a single A, rep team to triple A. So all over the youngest I've gone is, I think the U11 Canadettes, the Brampton, girls team.

I work with them once a week. I think that's the youngest team consistently I'm working with every week. I'm in, like I said, Brampton, and the U11s, and then I've gone up to U16. Worked with some OHL players a couple years ago, was on with the Oshawa Generals a couple years ago, working with the Centermen.

And then like I said, house league to AAA and everywhere in the city, Brampton, I'm with Leaside, Don Mills, Markham Waxers, Markham Islanders, who else am I with? It's just I'm trying to, I have a sheet now, and I've gone to the wrong rink a couple times this year and I will say this, there's nothing more frustrating going to the wrong rink. You drive like an hour somewhere in traffic and you look at your schedule. And how could I make that mistake?

So I'm still, I still make these rookie mistakes going to the wrong rink at times, which is not fun. You know what it's like driving around and you go to the wrong spot. yeah, I'm all over the place. Yeah. All over the city, different ages, different levels. something interesting is I was talking to a couple coaches about this, when I got back last month and they said, what's it like coaching?

How'd you get involved? And it started just with, I was watching a hockey school, this was years ago. I'm going to say 2008, we had skated a pro skate in 2009 and I was watching a hockey school in Toronto and the kids were just standing around not doing anything and a father came up to me and said, Hey, you're one of the players,you train here on the pros.

I said, yeah. He's my son hasn't moved in like 10 minutes and I was watching practice and there was like 40 kids on the ice, 40, like there was a ton. I haven't seen that many. I don't know how many of you guys have had on at one time, what your high number is, but that's pretty top 40. I've done 30 and I do end to end, so they're not usually standing around.

But it was a learn to skate and they were just in line waiting and waiting 10 minutes. So I was like, you know what? I started, I put my own hockey school on and I did it for two weeks and realized how hard it was. But that's how I got into it. I feel like, it's something I've always wanted to do.

I had great coaches growing up. Great development coaches, great team coaches. And I wanted to give that experience back to kids in Toronto. So I operated my own hockey school and it just, I started now with one friend asking me to come out and then it was, Oh, I see you're on the ice. You want to come with my skate?

And so I was like, friend to friend, the friend of a friend, family wanted me to come out and then now I'm on the ice every day. So not really something I planned on doing. I've really enjoyed it. It's great to be on the ice with the kids, and I'm maybe a little too strict at times.

I feel like I'm strict, but apparently I'm like one, like out of all the coaches they have, it's pretty easy when I'm out there. So the kids can like, I always say this, the kids can see you coming a mile away. So if you're like not a strict coach and you let them get away with everything, they know right away.

So I try to be strict, but apparently I'm not.

David: So it's really fun to listen to Mike and what he's gone through, because obviously I've gone through everything he's done, in my career of 30 years and especially in the beginning, Mike, you know what,you have a good name for yourself.

You're passionate about the game. Yeah, a lot of great gifts to give back, not only your skills, experiences and, to all the kids and parents too who are listening because they want to know what's best for my kid all the time. And then your schedule gets booked up, you go from a couple of times a week to 7 days a week, and then it's not just that, and then you're multiple every day.

And it's so easy. I've been there. Or you go to the wrong rink, oh my god. Or how about you just drive up the same street and you do the same loop. I'm not going there. I gotta go west on the 401, not east on the 401, I've been there. But, I think the key thing is that, you know what, you learn and grow as you go.

And you care as you go. And you come back, you keep asking myself the question, how do I be a little bit more firmer but fair? And the kids will respond to you. 

You're always going to have those bad eggs. I just take those ones and I always say to them, if you don't want to listen, that's fine.

I'll direct you to the coach over there and he'll deal with you. And that's what I used to always do. I needed that coach on the bench and I would just direct those kids and you can find those bad eggs within two minutes. It doesn't take long. Mike knows he's all yeah.

And then you, you really have, and you say, you know what, we need to have a discussion between the coach.

The parent and me on how you're going to behave. You're really trying to help that kid to change that behavior. And with those three, the parents involved, the coach involved, and you involved, usually the next time it works out pretty good. can you say some more about the coach that you have on the bench and you send, so you have a kid that's misbehaving or not listening and then you send them to the other coach and what does the other coach do for you? I already have a pre, talk in the dressing room with the coaches. The coaches will say to me, Dave, can you work on ABC? Sure, not a problem. However, I need someone on the bench watching these kids. So if there's an injury, if there's a situation, you know what, I need to direct that player to that person, the coach, so that I can still work with my 14 players, 

If there's a behavior problem, Yeah, we need the head coach involved. Because the head coach controls the main thing, ice time during the game. That's the bottom line. But if the head coach is there to really work and develop the kids and grow them into better people, into better teammates.

Susan: better themselves so they know how to, just become better teammates in general. Yeah. The coach do cares, right? May not be there, but most of them are. And then you just work through that. I've had many of those conversations. All the time, but in the end, the team benefits, the players benefits, and the teams that I found where the coach said, No, you know what?

David: I remember one kid, Markham Islanders, and the coach said, You don't have to come out when Dave's here. It was like the worst thing. And so that kid never came out because he wanted to do his own thing. But he was the best player. That team exploded the next year. Not one player came back. Not one player came back. They had enough. They had enough. 

Mike: yeah, speaking about like having players that Maybe, might not be listening or having a difficult time applying themselves. I've only had one situation where we had to sit a player in practice. So we had a five minute time out on the bench. But besides that, I've been pretty lucky. Most kids come out, give me everything they have, work hard, have fun.

Those are like my two rules. And I try to explain to the players and teams I coach. We want to have fun out here. That's what we're here to do. But you can't have fun if you just put your stick on the ice and you don't try hard, you don't work hard, you don't apply yourself, you don't try to get better.

So I tell them you gotta work hard and have fun. You can't do one without the other. I try to explain that to them just to keep it as simple as possible. It's those are the only two things you gotta worry about. Everything else will take care of itself. So I always kinda remind my teams with those, just two simple things.

I know it's not very full, , it's not too deep. I just make sure, I wanna have, make sure they have fun. But at the same time, when you put the skates on and get on the ice. If you don't apply yourself, it's difficult to get better and really enjoy yourself at the end of the day.

So most of my teams and almost every single player I've worked with do that. 

There's times when, especially getting a little bit older, the 14, 15 is like a weird kind of strange age. They're like, what am I doing? I'm still, I'm playing minor hockey, but. I'm a teenager. It's there's other different,influences that are happening and different.

You're entering a different kind of environment, in high school and you got groups of friends and you have different interests as you get older. So I find that I can see it in the kids. Cause I remember myself and. At that age, I was like, Oh, do I still want to play hockey? I was playing soccer a lot too, 13, 14, and decided to stick with hockey.

I know it's a challenging age for, a lot of the kids I work with, so when that happens,it does spread. So if you have a player that doesn't work hard, or maybe somebody's having some trouble at home or at school, and that attitude is coming to the rink with them. And then they're bringing that on the ice and then the other players see it, it will spread through your team.

So if you're a coach and you see something that's maybe not on board for the kind of environment you want for your team, it only takes one player to make it very challenging as a coach. So if you want that high intensity, high excellence, players applying themselves, hard work. if you have one player that's not doing it and you don't say anything, Then it kind of spreads.

That's the only, I feel like that's one of the challenges I've come,

that has happened to me, and I try to squash that right away. And I don't like to call any players out, I don't want to approach them. Cause like I said, most times, like the, when I do see that, it's usually some external factor and it's, I'm cognizant of I have to be careful because for some players, this is like they're two hours away from whatever challenging situation they might have outside of the rink, whether it's at home or at school, and it's like their time to get away.

So you don't really know what these players are dealing with, especially when they're getting 13, 14, 15. It's a tough age. So I'm trying to be careful. 

But at the same time, if I'm doing triple A, I'm a little bit more strict. If it's double A, single A, further down, it's more about fun, and if a player doesn't want to show up and give everything, it's okay.

The issue I have is that a triple A, and you guys can tell me what your thoughts on this are because I don't think there's any right one way to do it, or philosophy to abide by, but at the triple A level, these are the elite. This is the 1 percent of the world. There's thousands of players that want that position and job on a team.

And I try to run it as close to a professionally, as close to a professional level as possible. And maybe it's the wrong approach. Like I said, I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but at the AAA level, I try to keep it as professional as possible. And I expect like the highest level of excellence I can.

And I'm not talking about skill wise, skill has nothing to do with it. But that whole, how do you operate that environment at AAA? I don't know, you guys can give me your thoughts on that.

Susan: I'm gonna ask some questions and then I'll, then we'll address, your question about AAA. so you said that, I completely agree with, 13, 14, 15 being an awkward age. I'm coaching a house league team that's age right now. Last year I was coaching like 12, 13 and I would give out candy at the end of practice and the kids would fight over the candy.

And this year I'm doing like 13, 14 and I'm offering candy and three quarters of the kids don't want it. So there, there's a big change that's happening there. And you, and I love the empathy in what you had to say about, They've got stuff going on at home, at whatever it is.

And so you say you don't like taking them aside.

Is there something else you do? do you address the room generally and say, Oh, here are my expectations for how I want you to work?

Mike: Sometimes I will do that. If I see kids are, in line and not listening and pushing each other and getting in the way of somebody else's development, I'll bring it up. I try to address everybody. I try not tounless I know, the coach's son who's coaching the team. The manager of the team's kid or someone I know, I'm more harder on them.

I don't like, I don't know if this is a nice thing to do, but I'll center them out. Cause I feel like they know me a little bit more than the other kids and I've seen them maybe at a Birthday party, maybe, or I'm best friends with their dad. my U12 team, I'll center out the coach's son. I know him, and we chat a lot, and I'm friends with Raffi, so I'll center his son out a lot.

And I've never brought it up. He probably knows, oh, this is just Coach Ziggy centering me out, but I'll do, I'll make an example of him a lot, and maybe that's not the nicest thing to do, but I feel like he knows, oh, He's trying to get the most out of the team. So I'll do that.

But so the teams I don't know, and if the kid's not applying himself,I'm pretty, I've been pretty lucky. Yeah. I'm pretty lucky. And what I try to do to bring a lot of energy on the ice and I try to make it so my practices are moving quicker than maybe they should. the pace of practices, the intensity I bring, my attitude, how challenging to make them.

I'm trying to push them out of their comfort zone, so if they're not paying attention and they're messing around in line or playing around when they shouldn't be, they're going to be, it's going to be noticeable on the ice. Yeah, so I try to do it that way, and I don't know if that's manipulative or not, but, I don't know what you call it, if that's a, if that's a form of coaching or, but I try to bring those things where the, all the kids are in a position where, oh, if I don't show up right now, I'm going to look way out of place.

So I need to pay attention. I need to work hard. I'm not going to be able to do the drill or I'm not going to improve. So I take that approach, but I don't know if that's those are bad coaching tactics or not. So yeah, I, yeah. So like I said, a lot of my practices,

 I keep it simple. I try to emphasize from a coaching perspective is like pace of the practice, intensity, what kind of attitude I bring, and then I make sure they don't stand around a lot.

Mike: So a lot of them are back and forth and I'll line up three or four pylons. I show a drill And we go to the end. I may do an odd correction, but usually they go back. If I have a lot of time with the team, I do two down and backs of everything, whether it's power skating, edge work, agility, stick handling. I run them through these drills.

And so I can coach 30 kids by myself. I can get the most out of them. they're exhausted by the end. They learn. So if they didn't learn anything in my practice . They saw something new.

 They got a good workout. So physical exercise is a big one. if you do nothing, I think it's, I think it's massive for kids.

I don't know. I don't think we get enough of it in general. Third thing, what do they get out of it? They should probably ask the kids, would you get a practice today? Nothing. What did you do today? Nothing. No, but getting physical exercise, getting a good sweat. and then just,the social aspect.

They're on the ice, they're interacting with other kids. Maybe it's not like a recess for them where they're playing their own games, but it's got a little bit of structure. So structure, socializing, and a good workout. So if I do nothing related to anything I did in my pro career, or trying to make them better, edge work, stick handling, game situation, whatever I work on, if they don't get any of that, they got those other three things.

I think I'm complicating it. It's it's really, if there's any like coaches listening to this or watching this, it's not this complicated. I'm a little different. I'm a little strange. you can listen to it, take it for what it's worth, but it's not that complicated. I tried to bring something else.

Susan: I think every coach has their own way of doing things, and you find what works for you. I tend to run my drills. I would have people do the drill for a solid 10 minutes because that, I like the kids to get the reps to groove in that pattern and I get lots of chances to give them feedback.

And I tend to break up my, kids into groups cause I'm not loud enough. I'm just not loud enough to do 30 kids at once.

Mike: Yeah. It's so when I'm doing the 30, I'm trying to think the most, I think I've had over 30. if I'm doing back and forth. Full ice, pylon to pylon, no goaltenders on the ice. I can do it because I'm running 4 players at a time on the whistle every 2 3 seconds.

Susan: And I'll go and ask the players how hard it was today.

Mike: And every player will be like, I'm exhausted. And that's pretty tough to do. If I'm running a practice, no, you can't do more than 18 skaters. Like 20 skaters if I'm running a practice. That's an NHL team. You might have 22 skaters on the ice. That's like a pretty good number. If you're doing individual drills and you have an assistant coach on the ice with you and you do different skill areas,

Susan: small game areas.

Mike: Yeah, that's possible. like I said, I don't do a lot. I do a couple of practices during the week, but most of the time I prefer just to do power skating, edge work, agility, stick handling. And then I throw some fun games like, like carrying the puck on your stick with one hand. And then if you drop it, you do push ups at the end.

I do like fun stuff. I played with Sidney Crosby with the Pittsburgh Penguins in 2008 and 2009. And going around the ice, he would always warm up with a stick like behind his back with a puck through his legs. So I'll have the students do that. And it's stuff that's very difficult. 

They're silly things. But what coaches have you doing a stick and a puck through your legs and bringing it out the other side? They're just ridiculous things, but I did it one time on the ice. And then one of the kids was like, I saw you do that thing when you got on the ice. Cause I was just doing it up by myself before practice.

And he's I've been working on that for months and I finally be able to do it. I'm like, Oh, you enjoy this? And he's yeah. So I start doing that as like a fun little drill at the end of my hard power skating days or stick handling days, I'll say, okay. But try to put the puck and the stick through your legs, out the other side of the other hand, and back, and keep doing it.

And the player just can't do it. It's it's impossible. Or bring the whole stick and the puck around your back. So Sidney Crosby would do that stuff every day in practice. But he would do it like it was just walking. But for me, I have to concentrate. I try to bring some fun things maybe at the end.

maybe we go the one end, and then each line I give a puck to the first player, and if they can put it in the net, they get to coast back. The whole line, or if they miss, then everyone's got to do like a hard length of the ice. So I did a little bit of conditioning in there as well. So I try to make it a little bit more fun.

David: What I really like about Mike is that he has this passion. You can hear it, right? And you can see it. Especially when he starts talking about players like Sidney Crosby, obviously. But Mike is a player. Mike loves to play, and he's been playing this game for a very long time. I remember him when he was a Peewee hockey player.

He's the same way. He still has that same high energy passion, and he's bringing it to the players, and he's showing them. So his state, when he gets on the ice, his physical state, he probably loves skating around, dangling the puck, taking a couple shots on the net. He's ready to go, and the kids know. They can see it.

They see it in his body, see it in his language right away. And then he speaks that communication. And this is where the kids feed off. They feed off this energy that Mike brings to the table. he talked about Cooper, he talked about Hitchcock. I don't think Hitchcock skates very fast. 

So he needs to bring it differently. He doesn't have that high energy skating, great skating, shooting, scoring skills, Hitchcock. But he probably brings it in his voice. He brings it in his body language, you know what? And that's the difference. Every coach, like you said, Susan, needs to bring whatever it is, who you are.

Just be yourself, just be yourself, but you have to bring it. You can't be standing there. I've seen coaches, Mike. They come on the ice. They got their coffee. They're at the sideboards. You know what? Kids pick that up.

Mike: Yes.

David: Are you ready to practice? He's not

Mike: Well, what, what, when were we like, when were we on in the rinks together? What years were those?

David: You're about Peewee, right? 95? Would that be in around there? 95, like that, right?

Mike: So when did you start?

David: 93.

Mike: I'm trying to remember all my coaches and what they did. I feel like I was saying, I have a lot of kids on the ice. Sometimes usually I just have the team, which is 15 skaters to 18. Your coaching style I feel more technical, grab five guys, show them what to do in each situation, unless I'm wrong.

no, you're pretty much right? Absolutely. I find that's hard to do, cause it's, how can you get five kids on the ice? My skates, it's not possible. Ice is $400. It's like really hard to find those small groups, right? I get asked that a lot, cause I get clips sent to me from like Instagram.

And it'll be like a guy coaching kids, trying to show them how to shoot. And they're like, do you do this? And I go, I will, at times I go in a small rink, at the Nailers, property, they've got an outdoor rink, a little two on two rink. And I get five kids on the ice at a time. I can do that, but getting a team and trying to show how to take a shot or like individual skills, it's very difficult.

And I feel like we don't usually have that. So somebody sent me a clip from somebody with a big following and they say, what do you think of this? And I said, I think it's great. And I think a lot of kids can benefit generally the way I work. That's not how I do things. One, I don't think that's one of my strengths.

And the second part of it. The way I coach is a little bit different than I think a lot of other coaches and they said, who's better? I go, neither of us are better. They're just different ways. And as a player, you have to figure what you get the most out of. So for me, I enjoy that individual stuff, the small groups, but there are two different ways to coach.

And I don't know which way is better because I get asked, what's the better way? I said, if that's good for you and that works, go and work with that coach. If you like what I do, the end to end, it's not as personable, like I don't have a chance to go and correct every single skater and every single shot.

I get a lot of messages, a lot of emails, hey, my kid needs to skate better. What can you do? And it's very different. Like skating is one of those really tough things to really teach like unless you're doing one on one with a power skating coach or four players maximum It's difficult, right?

I'll go to the start on how I got into power skating. One, I'm not a great skater. I People say, how can you not be a great skater? You go to the NHL. Out of the NHL players, I was definitely not the best. I'm bow legged, flat footed. I'm not making excuses. But, just I got by. And then I had hip surgery in when I was 26. And I got back on the ice and I had a really difficult time even skating at all.

So I had to train myself again with the new hip. I felt like my leg was longer It just didn't feel like I had my leg my right leg under me.

 Has a little bit of a bone spur so I can't get my leg in a certain spot to skate. It just does not move the way hips should move, like a leg. anyways, I had the hip surgery done. It was great. The problem with getting the right side done was, I didn't realize how bad my left one was. So they were both bad. My right one was just really bad where I needed the surgery.

So I got my right done and then I was like, wow, is that what a leg is supposed to feel like? And that was when I was, in my seventh year pro. So I was like, wow, I feel like I got a new leg. They don't feel the same.

But then I was like, wow, my left one is really bad. And they're like, yeah, you need surgery on the other side, which I never got done. But so anyways, I get the surgery done. Can't skate

I do Pilates and training at Pilates North in Richmond Hill and I was working with them for years And there was a figure skating coach Tracy Wilson there who I would do classes with and she works a lot of Olympians She does NBC, I think for the Olympics commentating still. And I would go and work out with her. So I started to learn to skate again. And she was like, you're doing this wrong, that wrong. We worked on all these other different methods. I would go and skate with all the figure skaters at their rink downtown cricket club, I think it's called.

And we were working with like medicine balls in each hand. I never had a stick too often. So I did all this power skating stuff that the top skaters in the world were using. And then we made it for hockey. So I took what she had, her experience in figure skating. And then applied it to hockey and then we created the system that was really helping me.

So I worked with her for a couple of years and definitely changed my game. Wish I had that when I was younger. it's just, what do you, it's Dave, what do you work on? It's you're trying to teach a player how to play hockey and then you want to add in the edge work. Like it's a whole different world, right?

It's that coach doesn't offer that. I'm like, do you know how different and how many different areas, different coaches can go in? Like you could have the best coach in the world that doesn't do any edge work. But you need the edge work. You got to go and find that from whoever does that. So it's not that like it makes a good coach good or bad, whether they're an edge coach or they're doing situational stuff or it's a stick handling or it's a shooting coach.

Find what coach works with you for what area. But anyway, so I worked with Tracy Wilson and, we created this system, right? And it's, it's something I bring to the kids now. So it started with a hip injury, had to learn how to skate. Went to Tracy. I was learning figure skating, and they say and I don't know Dave where you stand on this But oh the figure skating stuff is great, but how does that gonna apply to my hockey players right okay doing all these fancy turns, does it do anything for the players in a game?

The answer is most of the time it doesn't really help like we're just getting stuff like I think it's great. I think players should see that just to hey, maybe there's something out there that you don't see, right? Try something that's absolutely off the wall, crazies times, go out with a figure skating group, see what they're doing.

But in general, does it help you? A lot of stuff, it might not. So I took this figure skating methods and, I applied them to hockey. So I made them for a hockey player and then doing this over the years, I've refined the whole technology. The issue with it though, is that it's so different than learning how to skate. a whole different philosophy, cause if you don't get it, it's a waste of time. literally if, but I've seen players with the way, the method I've developed, get better. The thing is, as a coach, and Dave, you can speak to this if you want, is back in the 90s, you have five days with a kid, you need him to get better in five days.

Do you know what I mean? And if they don't go and score on day six, you're a terrible coach. Do you know what I mean? I know you probably didn't get that pressure, but It's there, believe me. so it's so it's do I run this power skating detailed stuff or do I get this kid to skate hard right now with a puck in the corner around the pylon and I get him to make sure he, next Saturday, he's ready to go.

Where mine is it's a bit of a process. Like it's, I like 10 days with someone. I can see a better skater in 5, but I need 10.

David: If I have 20, it's better. So I don't know where both of you stand on that.

I'm gonna number one, I just want to compliment you on what you're doing because obviously you really care about the kids and you're coming up with this great system. And through your experience of, working with the figure skater and the professional coaches at the highest level, you know what, you were given this gift, but you didn't know what you're going to do with this.

Now you can see what you're going to do with this gift. And it seems complicated just listening to you, but you're trying to simplify it. 

But, just to let you know, I compliment figure skaters.

I think they're amazing figure skaters. And, there's a difference. They got the toe picks. There's a slight difference between Ice hockey and figure skating. You must agree with that one, right? You must agree with that. So there is a slight difference, balance is number one. I don't give a shit what the thing is.

Balance is number one on your skates. Whether it's the flat edge, inside edge, outside edge, your balance has to be really good. And then you move on from there. You have your technique and your strength. your technique and how you do it, and your strength and how much power you're going to deliver.

And then, I keep it real simple. That's what I break skating down to is those three key things. You don't have balance, you're not going to be able to skate. That's the first thing, Susan. When you see Susan, she's still working on balance, okay? All right? That's where she is, right? but you know what?

When you start working with these hockey players, how do you refine their skating? so it's more efficient. There's more power. There's more, you know what, less energy used to get from point A to point B. there's a lot of

Mike: Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. it's difficult, right?

David: NHLers that skate like Ovechkin, it's just all out brute force. It's not good technique. it's just A to B, but he's 250, who gives a shit, It's not smooth, right? Fedorov is smooth, Paul Coffey is smooth. Those guys are beautiful skaters to watch. And there's a whole list of beautiful skaters, right?

 Different. Michael, you're different. You're different than the other players who have trained, And working in small groups, yeah, that's great. But it's very difficult. Ice is expensive. What can you do off the ice to train? Are there homework exercises that you can do with your philosophy, then take to the ice as well?

It's so nice to have one on one instruction, Michael. If we could do one on one, that'd be the best because you, I know what you mean. You're like, if I video of it, how do they, it's like learning golf.

Mike: Yeah. What I learned with Tracy was weight transfer

Susan:

Mike: and how

you need the balance. You need your edge work. You need all that, all those qualities in a stride. So what I worked on was efficiency at the end of the day, cause I was working way too hard to get from point A to point B. So she worked on me a lot with weight transfer and where my weight was. But like, how technical is that? Super technical. I'm working one on one with the best.

Instructor for figure skating in the world. And it's I had a medicine ball with me 90 percent of the time to actually show me where my weight should be. How,

you going to do with 18 kids? Are you going to bring 18 medicine balls on the ice? it's not happening, I used to do a lot of my power skating without the stick and I would lose the kids after 15 minutes.

So I have to keep the stick in their hand. But even when she worked with me, I didn't have my stick in my hand a lot of times because I really got so technical.

Susan: Yeah. if memory serves, Tracy Wilson was a pairs figure skater, at the Olympic level, and her partner was Rob McCall.

Mike: Yeah, the 80s, I think.

Susan: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah, she was Olympian. She was Olympian. Yeah, but she and Brian Orser, I think they do the programs for a lot of the Olympians. I don't know if they still do it. And I don't know if it's like common knowledge, but all of them come to Toronto to do a lot of them. They come. Yeah

David: be

Susan: I think they work out of the Granite Club.

Mike: Granite Club, maybe that's it. Not many people know that. I don't know why it's kept hush hush. I'd go up for a skate. It's oh, this is like The best skater from China. This is the best skater from Georgia. This is the best skater in the US and they're all there. And I'm just like, I don't know any of them. I should know more of the best Olympians in the world. Right? I just didn't know them. . The skating was incredible though, watching them up close. Tracy was great. 

David: Dolly. That's who I had in my back corner. I had a Dolly. And Dolly had me in my backyard skating every day for four to five hours, only because I'd love to do it. Dolly was my mom and she's the one that taught me skating. Skating is extremely so important these days. 

And I think what Michael has the system where he has different levels and maybe he already knows this. I'm going to anticipate that he does. And you have a level for what you work with teams. And then you have a level where you work with maybe, like from your AA or house league select, then you have your AA, AAA level, and then you have your refined kids who want to go to you and come out and be even better.

So then you have that small group and that's where you teach that, that specialized training. Call it your You know, your bronze, silver, gold, platinum packages. It is what it is. you can't teach the whole team or 30 this specialized package.

Mike: It's hard.

David: It's hard. It's that small group. You want this? This is what it is. You know what? People love to have those different levels, Michael. And they're like, you know what? I'm okay with the silver package. I'm pretty good. I like that package. I would stay with that. But give me the platinum stick handling and shooting and scoring package, right?

Mike: something to think about, something to think about. but, you need lots of time, lots of money, buddy, to get up to that platinum of skating, Thanks

Susan: so as a player. and we might have to answer this question in pieces because you've had a long career as a player, but, what were some of the things that coaches did that had a big impact on you?

What made a difference for you in a coach?

Mike: I was very fortunate growing up. all my head coaches in my teams, the different development coaches I have that would come in or working with different coaches in the summertime for hockey camps. I got a little bit of everything I think growing up. I got coaches that were very strict and hard on us. I got coaches that kind of sat back and let us develop our own personality on the ice.

I had skill coaches that would work on skating, situational drills. I had a little bit of everything I feel growing up. And very fortunate. And coaches and teachers. That I'm still friends with and talk to today. from that aspect, very lucky that I was exposed to so many great development and, skills coaches and definitely shaped the way I played and the way I coach right now.

it's tough to really, I feel like the coaching landscape has changed a lot, maybe from the late eighties, nineties to now. With social media, with, the cost of things, there's many different factors that I feel have changed the coaching landscape and the development world. Hopefully for the better. I'm sure there's, some more challenges to the way that things are done now, but. All in all, growing up has been, I'm very fortunate with, all my minor hockey coaches and development coaches I've worked with.

Susan: So what are some of the changes? is it more expensive? Are there more options? Is the coaching style different?

Mike: I think there's definitely more options. I think things are more expensive. I didn't pay for anything growing up, but I can just imagine with the rink costs right now, you're getting options to go smaller groups. I think that makes things definitely more expensive for families, but the equipment, ice costs,I don't know the numbers on registrations from the 80s to now. 

People always ask, is hockey the most popular sport? I just, I don't think so. I think soccer is the biggest, and I think the costs, like we mentioned, and why things are more difficult now, and it's the equipment, it's the ice, and, sticks are, they're four, I heard they're 400 now, I grew up with a, a Titan wood stick that I would only get if they went on sale at the Canadian Tire gas station. And I can remember, they'd have them all the sticks all in the garbage can. And you would, I would get to grab one. And, I think there were usually $9.99 and I didn't get one until they dropped to six or $7.99. And so I would have duct tape, keeping my blade together.

And then I'd have my hockey tape over it and I just had to use that. That was it. That was all I was allowed to use. and my dad always used to say, it's not the stick, it doesn't matter what you use. But, I don't know, it was a great, teaching moment, but I think it doesn't matter what you use.

It definitely could help you get a brand new stick, but yeah, I didn't get the new latest stick, and, but yeah, the costs. The costs are expensive and the registration now for AAA is, I'm sure a lot higher. I think, yeah, I think for options, I don't know, Dave could probably answer that better than me and what it was like versus now.

I think social media has changed a lot. You see a lot of things that have gone viral, different coaches. capture parents or players like, Oh, I want to do that fun move that guy was doing on the ice when

David: You know what? I think media has really helped. Even NHLers, when one guy sees some other guy do something, they're like, I want to do that next time. And that boils down. It, to someone's dog is barking.

Mike: Yeah, that's it. That's the German Shepherd. Probably sees a squirrel running around. My apologies.

David: It goes down to the kids. It's these flipping the puck up, doing the Michigan, doing all the things. In coaches are a great opportunity. There's so much more out there for them to learn and grow, to become better coaches at every level.

Where before you winged it. Or, I used to watch your coach, Dan Poliziani, and I used to watch his practices. Wow, look at that. That's great. And he used to give me ideas. And then I used to run my skates off of what I would learn from him. We used to steal each other's practices. That's how we used to do it.

Mike: Now, everything's online. Everything's gone viral. It's great. Yeah, Dan Poliziani was my coach for two years. My two years before, before I went to the OHL. Minor Bantam and Bantam, I guess that's you. 16 and 17 or yeah, 15, 16 or 16, 

David: Yeah, 

Mike: 17 now. yeah, I learned a ton from Dan and, he was I feel like I just had a conversation actually with a player yesterday.

I coached a U15 Waxers AAA and they had an OHL GM go and watch them and it's a year before the draft year, but gave a little bit of feedback to the head coach. And it wasn't too negative, but definitely would want to hear other things, so I ran them through a really hard practice yesterday, and one of the players came up and said, What do I need to do?

What did he say? And I said, you guys gotta get a little bit more intense out there. be a little bit more hard nosed when you have the puck or you're fighting for the puck. it's a physical game. You got to get involved physically. And, yeah, so that's why I ran you guys through a tougher practice.

Usually it's very skill based and edges and, but I did a lot of one on one in the corners, one on one in front of the net, two on twos, battle drills, angling drills. they're pretty tired. I said, at the end of the day, a lot of it has to do with your conditioning, right? it's going from fun minor hockey to a job here pretty soon, and I just said, you know what I, I went through it at 14 and 15 where it's minor hockey. It's fun going to the rink. You're scoring goals, you're at pizza parties, you're playing video games.

But at 14, 15, 16, and you're getting looked at for the OHL, for college soon. I know the O not a full-time, job and university you're going to school, but at the end of the day. it's professional at that point, and it's at 16, 17, 18, and maybe that's not the best way to do it, but that's the system we have right now, and I just let the player know, I, I wanted to quit at times, and Dan was so hard on me at 14, 15, it was like, I was just borderline, literally going to give up, but he was explaining to me the pro game and like what you need to do on a, on an everyday basis.

This isn't just, go and have fun at the rink. It's, okay, you have to show up every day and play. You can't take a day off. you gotta play defense. You can't just hang and wait for a puck and go on offense and score goals. you gotta play, be hard to play against. And he would just hammer those things into me every single day.

And it was just like, very tough as a 14, 15 year old, where you just want to have fun and just go out with your friends. To now, you have a coach trying to say, Hey, this is what's happening. And I'm lucky I went through that. And I think it's something as a skills coach and development coach don't know how much of that you can get through in your limited time with a player.

But if you're coaching a kid throughout the year, I feel like you can give those lessons throughout the months. and Dave, I forget what teams or if you, what teams you coached when growing up, or if you just did this development skill stuff.

David: when you were with Danny, I was with the team ahead of you. I was ahead of you. I had the Bantam Triple A's, and you were with the minor Bantam Triple.

Mike: Yes, that's right. Okay. I remember. Okay. so you, you were with the Raiders as well.

David: That's correct. 

Mike: Yeah. but you can help a kid through all that

David: Mm hmm.

Mike: and it's fine. But if you're doing a skills, like it's tough to really give those lessons unless you're there every single week watching the player in a game, but I got all those lessons from Dan. 

I just had a conversation with a kid yesterday and I let him know what it was like for me. I was like, yeah, I was went through this transition where it was minor hockey and then you gotta have this pro mentality, where, if you don't feel like doing it, some days you can just show up at a game and whatever, it's minor hockey.

But if you do that at the OHL level. You're not going to be there too long. You take a day off. Okay, you can get away with it. You have two bad games in a row. It's then you're probably not playing the third day. If you come back and play again like that, you're probably going to get traded and that's it. It just stops. 

So you have to figure out how much you love it and how much better you want to get. And I feel like that 14, 15, 16 is like if you want to pursue a career in hockey. There is a little bit of a change you have to make and you're gonna, you're going to transform yourself into that pro mentality.

And it's difficult to have because it'sokay, it's minor hockey, right? You're supposed to have fun. These are kids. At the same time, you had OHL teams looking at you. Do you want to do this professionally? Do you want to take this to the next level? Then you have to,think outside of that minor hockey, go to the rink, pizza party mode.

Maybe that's maybe that's the maybe that's the ugly side of hockey but it's the system we have.

David: That could be applied to almost any sport. There's a lot of coaches out there really only coaching for themselves. So looking to of bring their game to the next level. They want to get to the junior level, the major level, the university level, the head coach. What Dan did for you was explain why. Why you must do this. And a lot of coaches bring the whys. We got to skate hard. You got to work hard. We want to win. They all think it's about the win. What Dan give for Mike, the special gift was the gift of what's going to look like down the future, one year, five years, 10 years. 

Mike: Yeah, I think that's something good to bring up. Yeah, so he would work on what you had to do as a player and maybe something similar from him and another coach. I've read all his books. John Wooden, basketball coach, I think UCLA. So I've read all his books. Really interesting. And the similarities from a coach I had before I went to the OHL and someone like that, who's the winningest college coach of all time, is like they never talked about winning.

John Wooden never mentioned, he said he would go the whole year. And not discuss winning as a team. You would never talk about a win or trying to win. He would work with what each player needed to do, how, and he worked on only on improving each player. And that's really hard to do as a coach.

Now that I'm coaching is like, when you don't talk about a win or you don't emphasize it, it's difficult. So when I coached the, 2005s, They were you trying to think this is probably five six years ago young Nats. I that was my one goal I was like, let's see if I can go the whole year coaching without bringing up winning and I did It's very difficult.

And then I was an assistant coach With UofT men's team and I went the whole year every time I address the team. I talked to player. I'm not gonna bring up winning And I did it, but it's very difficult to not bring up, we need to win this, or we have to do this to win. So I didn't do that at all, I would try to, and so John Wooden would work, and Dan did this, but I didn't know at the time.

Dan never brought up winning at all, which was very interesting, but I didn't even know as a 14 to 16 year old. And then playing, and then reading all of John Wooden's books, and he's I never talked about it. I just try to improve every single player, that's it. really interesting way, very difficult.

 The system works, if you can, as a coach. I don't think it's easy. I think it takes time to craft that. it's something I'm still working on.

But I try not to talk about, try not to talk about the wins and losses. Just talk about what each player needs to do to get better. And then what you need to do as a team to improve.

And it sounds so simple, but it's so difficult.

David: Maybe that's only one John Wooden and,

There is only one. Yeah. if you look up, like those stats are just, Outstanding. Like, 

Mike: Even if he recruits the best players, it's still wild. if you read his record and it is, it's hard to believe. You have to read all his books. Like everyone's what's the best one? I think they're all great. But if you're a coach and you want to learn a lot, I know he's a basketball coach, but John Wooden books are, they're really interesting.

I should probably go and reread them. It's been six, seven years maybe longer. I didn't read those cause I was coaching. I read those actually when I was playing still. So 2007 2008. I know they're coaching books, but I learned a ton as a player.

Susan: Wooden on leadership,

Mike: Wooden on leadership. that's the one. I think that's his main book. I don't know which one that was, but that's the big one. They're all good. They're all great. 

Susan: So I have questions about coaching at elite levels, because I'm a grassroots coach and I think. this is my mental model. The coaches at the elite level are better in ways I can't even imagine because you're working with professionals. So they have this professional attitude, but also they have their skills down.

Like you've spent years honing your skills. So what does a coach do for a team at that level?

Mike: That's the thing, right? It's like when you have grassroots versus you have an elite team I think age matters if you have a house league Fifteen year olds or do you have house league seven year olds? I think the approach changes I don't know how specific or how much you want me to get into detail on that or so

Susan: I'm just thinking at the NHL, for example, right? In the NHL,what can a coach tell you that you don't already know? What does a coach, do they get you to play better? Do they get you to practice harder? what are they working on?

Mike: So at the NHL level, you're managing personalities at the pro level Everybody kind of knows what they need to do

You're managing personalities. You have to figure out who's playing the best at that time, and who to put on the ice. When you're in practice, what do I need to do with the limited amount of time I have because you're playing so many games? And how, so how efficient can I make my practices where I'm not running my players through the ice and fatiguing them?

I feel like, so you have those things, you have to make sure you have command of the room, where players are respecting you as a coach, so when you say something, it sticks. Once you, they call it like losing the room. So when the coach gets fired, Oh, did he lose the room? Where, when he's talking, no one's paying attention to what the coach is saying.

And that happens and it can happen to the best in the world. And I think it does. I feel like most coaches, you have a shelf life at a pro level. I think college is totally different being a college coach, like a John Wooden, I think is different than being an NBA coach. And I think he discusses it.

Why didn't you ever go coach in the NBA? And he's these are two totally different things. So I think the pro level there is a shelf life. And you're only going to last so long until you move on to the next team, different environment. so you have who to put on the ice. You have, but what kind of culture are you creating with your team?

So there's a lot of different things where if you're coaching minor hockey or you're coaching university hockey, it's a little bit different. Even OHL, it's a different, it's definitely a different setting, but at the pro level, there's still lots to learn. Michael Therrien, who coached me with the Penguins, he would kind of pull us over once a week and show us a different part of the ice and like what he wanted, which I found was really interesting because most coaches aren't teaching too much.

You don't do something that they want, next. You miss a pass, next. Bad game, next. Lose a draw, you're done. so he would teach us something, pull us in the corner. When this happens, this is what I want. At the blue line here, the defense comes back. So do coaches do teach you? I played for him, played for Paul Maurice, Peter Laviolette, Wayne Gretzky, I'm trying to go through all my coaches. Dan Bilesman was in Pittsburgh. I wasn't playing, I had shoulder surgery. he was there, but I didn't get to play in a game with him. I had an interesting group of coaches, like the Peter Laviolette, Michael Therrien, Paul Maurice, they've been around for a long time.

I was lucky. They all, they're all different. And I don't think there's one coach better than another, right? Everyone's oh, how do I get to that point? And I'm like, You're no different than the best coach in the NHL. Some guy in the OHL or coaching university, they just do things different.

But back to your original question about what's different. Yeah, just you're managing personalities, right? You might have an 18 year old kid who's living at home, first rounder, and you might have a 38 year old with four kids. So you got to figure out all these different personalities, different ages. How do you get them in the room?

How do you create leadership in the room? Where you can, at the end of the day, essentially when you're coaching, is you want to not be needed. Like any good manager in any company, in any industry, the best managers are the ones where you set up systems where you're not needed. That's the goal at the day.

So if you're coaching, the whole goal of you coaching is to get a leadership group in the room where there's accountability, where you don't have to come in and knock over the Gatorade stand or the garbage when they're not playing well. Because that happens as a coach where they get so frustrated, they kick the garbage can over.

I'm sure everyone has heard of this, these stories of the coaches at pro levels. So you want to get it to a situation where the team coaches itself. It manages itself. That's the whole goal as a coach. And can you get there?

Susan: I used to be a manager at work and I completely agree with that, right? You put in the culture, you put in the process, you put in the systems, everyone knows their job and it's like this big machine that runs. And then what I would look after are the exceptions, right? Like when something goes wrong or something's different or, somebody gets sick, somebody gets injured, that kind of thing.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of way to do it. Simple, right? Good luck.

Susan: It's really difficult. I'm making things sound simple, but everyone listening right now, it takes a lot of time to

Yeah. So this is how I explain it. It's I was, supporting a software system that had millions of users and we had 24, seven uptime. If we had a problem, it had to be resolved within 30 minutes.

And in order to get that level of excellence, you have to do ordinary things well. And you have to do all of those ordinary things perfectly. And when you do that, you get something extraordinary.

I think anything, anything skill based is like that. I think hockey is like that. You get to extraordinary by doing the ordinary without any mistakes.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, I think that sums it up pretty good. Yeah. it's, it sounds easy, it takes a long time to hone those skills. I gave a little speech to my team this week and I said it this way to be a little bit controversial. I said, winning is boring. The reason winning is boring is because,people aren't willing to do what's necessary in order to win and what's necessary is the grueling hours of practice that nobody sees.

It's taking all of those shots. It's practicing your power skating. It's doing all of these things so that you can win. Winning's an outcome. You can't control that. What we can control is the process. And so working that process so that you can win is boring. And that's why not everyone is a winner.

Mike: Yes. That's a very good way to put it. it's like a farmer and his harvest, right? You got to go out there, take care of the soil, get the best seeds planted at the right time. tend to your farm and your land. But, water it, but at the end of the day, if it doesn't grow anything, you can't do anything about that.

All you can do is go out and It's

Susan: yeah, if it doesn't rain, that's not your fault. It's not in your control.

Mike: tough, right? Yeah, and some days the harvest doesn't come. So it's winning is what grows, right? But you don't really have a choice. You just got to get up every day at four o'clock and do the right things and things you can control. I think that, is a good way to look at things.

And winning in general is, when you're winning, I believe you think you're better than you actually are. So you've got one in the game. It's it's tough, right? It's like it inflates the ego a little bit of the team. And then I think the op, the, it's true the other way. If you lose, you think you're worse than you actually really were.

So I tell that even players, individual games, when you think you have a bad game, it's usually not as bad as you think. And then when you have a really good game, you're really not as good as you probably were. So I try to let teams and players know that. And there's a whole other way to look at winning where, winning can make you lazy, might not work as hard the next day practice, you might not look at the things you need to do better or it's like winning.

Like winning is not a great teacher.

Susan: Yes.

Mike: At the end of the day, we're losing can teach you lots of things, right? And you can look at how to get better. Oh, I did this wrong. Okay. So you're going to work harder in practice. I'm going to step out of my comfort zone this much more next day. Whereas if you win, you get a little bit more comfortable, a little more lazy, not a very good teacher.

Susan: What I like to say is I don't worry about the outcome of a game because you can either win or you can learn something.

Mike: It's good.

Susan: Nothing bad is going to happen.

Mike: So let's go on to your coaching experience and I want to talk specifically about head coach as opposed to skills coach. we talked about this a little bit, but there's a whole different set of challenges.I think you talked about how you are currently a head coach of one team. I'm a co-coach. I'm on the offensive. Raffi Torres, he's a guy there. It's every day. I'm there one game and one practice a week. I co coached the Nats. I was assistant coach of the UofT. 

So yeah, head coaching. I've never ran the bench. You know what? I, when I was with the Nats, I have a hard time putting the players on the ice. So sitting players are putting players on the power play. Our player doesn't play well, he doesn't get to play.

Or doing tryouts and seeing the kids like in tears, I was like, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't go to, I can't do tryouts and I can't put them on the ice because whoever doesn't go on is getting upset. So I'd like my co coach. Just work with the team on the bench, but I have a hard time putting the players on the ice

So that's my story.

Anyway, I haven't become a head coach yet. I've got a lot of offers It's just like one, I don't have the time. It's to be there every day is very difficult. Also I don't want the kids to be upset at me

Susan: So Michael, I have a podcast episode for you where we talk about rolling the lines. So just roll the lines, just roll the lines. Give everybody equal ice time.

Mike: But then what do you do on the power play next group up or do you have your power play group? That's a question. What do you do?

Susan: What do I do? What do I do or what does my head coach do?

Mike: Yeah

Susan: I run the defensive

Mike: Okay. Yeah. Yep.

Susan: and I just roll them

Mike: Okay. Yeah, I think the I think defense is a little bit easier than offense. No

Personally, I think it's a little more difficult just

Susan: that's why I do 

Mike: Yeah, that's good. That's smart. Maybe I should do D from now on

Yeah,

Susan: I do D because I can only think about two players at a time, and even then I mess up.

yeah but yeah, but I think it's also a self fulfilling prophecy. If you want a player who can play well on the power play, they're never going to get there until they've had a chance to play on the power play. And the, and when they first play on the power play, they're going to suck.

You can't get to good without going through bad. And so if they never have that experience, they're never going to get there. So it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Mike: it's interesting watching a game from the stands because I didn't have my card for a coach till like game four. So I watched the first three, three or four games in a tournament from the stands versus being on the bench and it's totally different, which is strange. I'm one of the coaches.

I'm watching from, why would it be different watching a game from a prospect, from a spectator standpoint versus on the bench? 

So I always think of like, when I'm on the bench, I try not to like, get in a player's way when they're playing. I guess that's one thing I kinda do as a coach, and the way I look at thingscause players like always, Oh, go here, go do that, and they're yelling, they're screaming. I know I lost my voice. It's from the practices, it's not from yelling in the games, everyone. So I, I lost it here the last couple weeks, and it like gets better in a day, and then yesterday it got worse again.

But,I try not to get in the player's way when they're playing. Just enjoy themselves. They got enough to think about. So I think as a coach, something you have to do is And something I concentrate on is I let, try to make the player enjoy the game. They got enough to think about, they got our systems, they got their line mates, they got guys trying to run them over on the ice, they got their parent or guardian at the game watching.

There's a lot of pressures on a player, and if you're always like breathing down their neck, it's oh, you gotta do here, you gotta be here, you gotta, I feel like that gets in the way, and yeah, that's I don't know. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's something I think about really when I'm coaching or the way I look at things, I feel like that's a big,

that's something you have to look at, 

cause when you're on the bench, you just, it's so easy to correct someone.

It's like, why did you go there? It's the player didn't want to go there. If you had to look at it again, he's oh, I wanted to do that. He's I didn't know at the time. So it's easy when you're on the bench to like over correct a player. oh, you did the wrong thing. But then when you go and see, they're in the situations, there's a lot of pressure on them when they're on the ice.

Susan: Dave, I think you have things to say about this.

David: Me? Yeah. Getting back to rolling the lines. And if you're taking the John Wooden approach where winning is not important and developing is and trying to find the best of every situation and developing those players, then you just put those lines out. As you go through, the better players will rise to the top and the better players move on to better teams and higher skill levels, as you keep moving forward, 

Everyone on the everyone in the stands can see where the better players are. That's just the way it is. So if winning so important, then yeah, you put out your best players all the time. It is different. when you're on the bench coaching, I really don't scream or yell at the players because I never like the coach telling me what to do as I'm skating up and down the ice, go left, go right, pass here, pass there.

I'm the one playing the game and I've learned that. I've just of let the players do their things on the ice and when they come off the ice, just to try to remind them, I'm coaching house league now, so it's "what is an offside, guys?" so simple as that. Those are the things that we're just trying to remind them.

Rather than screaming at them during the game time when they're playing. watch your offsides, watch forget it. don't. Just let them play. I agree with Mike. What Mike says let them play the game. Just let them play. Never mind when they come off the ice. They go. Oh, yeah I forgot about the offside.

I'm sorry coach. I'll remember next time. That's it We just need to more coaching during the practice and helping them develop in that aspect I'm going to use an offside because there's many there's a thousand different things are correct. So You know what? I just want of keep it simple.

Let the kids play 

Mike: Yeah. 

David: Let them enjoy it. Encourage them. Keep encouraging them. I really like what you did there. Keep going. You know what? 

Mike: Encouraging them is important. The winning thing, I have this conversation with coaches a lot, especially the younger they are. It's like, how much emphasis on winning at minor hockey should there be? we could debate this for,

David: A podcast.

Mike: yeah, for years we could debate this.

David: would

Mike: Well, do you want them to win or do you want them to develop? Can you do both? both is good. You want to teach players how to win. I'm not, I like the participation part of the game and sports, but you want to teach the kids Okay, there's gonna be a winner and the loser in the game. We need, we want to go try to win the game. So

So it's what do you do as a coach?

How much do you emphasize winning? How much do you emphasize player development?

 I feel like with minor hockey It's more important to develop the players. So for me, winning comes second. I don't want to throw winning out because I think it's an important part of a player's development if they want to move on and get to the pro level and become a winner, it's something you develop as a kid and you might do all the wrong things, but you do a couple things at the right time and you push at the right time to win a game.

I think that's good for your development. In saying that, a situation I can, if I want to get detailed, is

Say you have your forwards, or your defense, any player, and you want them to skate the puck to develop them skating with the puck in a game. Say they're going one on one, do you want a player to dump the puck in and go and chase it?

Or, do you want them to skate the puck, try to beat the defender one on one, but if he loses it, makes a mistake, they go the other way and score a goal. what do you do as a coach? Do you want them to develop their one on one skills? To become a better one on one player, it's going to develop them better.

They're going to be a better player next year, and they have a better chance to become a pro player. Or, they have to dump the puck in. You're going to win more games, but now this player doesn't develop, so what do you do? And I think this is like a situation, and this is like one of many, I could have picked a dozen other things.

But this is one of them. Okay, so what do you tell your kids? I'd be like, this is like the one, this is like the best scenario to like, bring up. Is a player going one on one trying to enter the offensive zone. What do you tell your player? So I don't know if you want to debate that right now

Susan: I don't think it's a,

David: Dump and chase, get the defenseman on their heels, and then I just move towards the second and third, and then you start carrying the puck in.

Susan: I think there's no one size fits all answer.

Mike: It's hard right it's very difficult to talk about It's so hard for me. I prefer a player try to beat him and have that chance of the puck going the other way against us Cause the player keeps dumping in as a 11 year old or as a 14 year old, I think 10, 11, 12, they should be trying these one on ones because if they don't do them now, they're not going to magically start doing them at 15.

It's just not going to happen. but as a coach, it's very frustrating, right? So I think I'm different on that. I'm going to say nine out of 10 coaches want the puck going behind the defenseman and you go and get it. I'm okay self chipping a puck, put a puck in and go in and get it. That's okay. If that's the play you want.

Like I try to tell my forwards, I want you to go wide every time. Get to the middle if you can, but wide. If you get pinched off or hit, the worst thing that's gonna happen is you make sure that puck slides into the other team's end. The only thing you don't want is when you try the player one on one and you lose the battle and the puck goes.

So I think you can try the player one on one And if it doesn't go the way you want, at least that puck is going forward and you let it slide into the other team's end. That's what I try,

Susan: Mm, 

Mike: the picture I try to paint for the players. But I don't want them to just dump it in because they don't, oh, they're nervous.

I don't want to turn the puck over in this situation. I'd rather the player try to win that one on one battle.

Susan: Yeah, I think that's right. Dumping it in or moving it out of your zone reflexively is entirely appropriate at a house league level up to age like 8, 9, 10, 11, right?

In order to progress, you need to do those one on ones. I think that's right.but once you do, once you have that judgment call to make, do you want your player to make the safe choice? Or the high risk, high reward choice?

Mike: It's tough, right? And I don't even bring it up with, I don't even bring it up because I'm different than 9 out of 10. Most, 9 out of 10 coaches are like, we need to win. That puck's going in, no turnovers, playing the right way.

Susan: Yeah.

Mike: So that's that, which is okay. I'm okay with it. But you run the risk of that player not developing.

David: So it's, it's been good. You know what,uh, what we're doing is we're getting a great viewpoint from someone who's not only started a minor hockey in Toronto and then played professional hockey, has a Stanley cup ring, congratulations. That's amazing, know, to have, and now he's back into coaching.

You know what? and I think he's given a lot back to the game. this is what we want. We want players to come back, but he's reading books on how to be a, become a better coach. he's had all these great experiences and whoever is being coached by Mike Zigomanis is a very lucky person. So that's what I can say.

Susan: yeah, I concur. I concur. I love the thoughtfulness, sensitivity, and empathy in so many of the things that you had to say today. it really, feel like you care about your players. and that's why I think they're lucky to have you.

Mike: Oh, thank you. Yes, I care about them all and I hope they're all improving. Every player I work with. And hopefully they can just take and learn one thing from the year. from the year I'm coaching. and take that to their next team.

Susan: and off the ice, 

Mike:

yeah. A lot of life lessons, yes.

Susan: exactly, for most of these kids, they'll never play professionally, but learning how to have resilience or approach something professionally is going to carry them through the rest of their life.

Mike: Yes, absolutely. There's a lot of lessons that, they can take off the ice and I think sports can play a role in someone's development, even if it's not sports related.

Susan:

thanks, Mike, for being with us today. 

Mike: All right. Thanks a lot for having me on 

Susan: Thanks to our listeners for tuning in to Coaching Call. We'll be back to answer more questions. The audio podcast is available from Apple, Spotify, and other directories. The vidcast is available from YouTube. Send us your questions in the comments or on our website at newcoach.ca.