How Crowley, Gardner And The Golden Dawn Shaped Modern Witchcraft

A four-week pause, a fresh brew, and a return to magic that actually matters. We jump back into our Witchcraft series and follow the thread from smoky Victorian parlours to today’s living pagan traditions across Britain, asking what endures and why it still resonates. The journey begins with the Victorian love affair with the occult: seances in middle-class homes, the rise of mediums, and the gothic imagination of Poe, Stoker, and Shelley. That cultural spark feeds into the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, where ritual magic, tarot, and Kabbalah shaped a new language for mystery. Enter Alistair Crowley, whose Thelema reframed magic around the pursuit of true will and left a controversial, indelible mark on modern spirituality and counterculture.

From there we pivot to Gerald Gardner, the figure who helped bring witchcraft into the open after the Witchcraft Act was repealed. We explore Gardnerian Wicca’s core ideas and the power of the Wiccan Rede: “An it harm none, do what ye will.” Then we step through the evolution to Alexandrian Wicca, noting how ceremonial style, theatre, and structure took root in London and Manchester. Alongside history, we reflect on ethics, consent, and why a principle that emphasises freedom with responsibility feels so right for our times.

We ground it all in the present: legal pagan weddings, chaplains in prisons, and vibrant practices like tarot, moon rituals, and herbal craft. We also wander through the places that hold the country’s mythic charge, from Stonehenge and Glastonbury Tor to Cornwall’s pixie-haunted paths, and the enduring folk magic of Scotland, Wales, and East Anglia. If you’ve ever wondered how a blend of story, landscape, and personal purpose can guide a life, you’ll find plenty here to savour, question, and try for yourself. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves a good origin story, and leave a review to tell us where the magic led you next.

Transcript

A Special Return: Part Two

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hello and welcome to Bonus Dad.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Bonus Daughter, a special father-daughter podcast with me, Hannah.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

And me, Davy, where we discuss our differences, similarities, share a few laughs and stories. Within our ever-changing and complex world.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Each week we will discuss a topic from our own point of view. And influences throughout the decades. Or you could choose one by contacting us via email, Instagram, Facebook, or TikTok. Links in bio. Hello and welcome to a very special episode of Bonus Dad, Bonus Daughter. They are all special actually.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

They are. You always say that. You say always say, Welcome to a very special episode, and every single episode we do is special.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

I mean it it is special. It is special. It's cute.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Um, this one is actually very special because this is part two of Witchcraft that's already out. That we've never done this.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

I know. Well, we should we tell everyone what actually happened last time?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Uh please do. Yeah. In your own words, because I was a little bit out of it.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Yeah, so last time we recorded, which was probably about three weeks ago now, wasn't it? It's quite a while ago.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

It was four. I can I can attest to the fact that it was 28 days at least. 27 actually.

Recap And Recording Mishap

SPEAKER_03 1:03

27 days, specifically. Yeah, and what happened was was we recorded the first witchcraft episode, and then Hannah kind of well, you collapsed. There's no other way.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

I malfunctioned, I feel. I collapse, I feel like, is very strong. You you were laying on the floor. I was in fetal position, yes. In absolute agony. I was, I was, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I was hit with the uh the the red curse on flow ragtime. I don't know what ragtime She's got period. Um no, ragtime is more like she's got period. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Um And I was very kind and said, well, we won't we won't continue with the next episode. We'll we'll we'll stop it there.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Well I couldn't have done it from the fetal position on the floor anyway. Yeah. Um but yeah. So if you uh if you watch that episode and thought, cool, she looks a bit peaky. I was. I was fighting for my life through that episode. And I thought that was gonna be the same case today, but uh luckily uh we've we've we've timed it a little bit better on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Can't go. You've had your hash browns, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

I have had my hash browns and my hot chocolate. I feel very warm.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Do you? I'm quite warm, actually.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Do you need to open a window?

SPEAKER_03 2:15

No, no, no. It's it's winter out there, you'll you'll let all the heat out.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Oh no. It's not like we can create more.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

So yeah, so this is a weird one because we normally we like record the episodes back to back. Yeah, and this one we've had like a four-week break. So you actually said to me, You went, I can't remember where we were, but I remember.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

You remember, I think I remember because I do remember Crowley being mentioned.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Exactly. That's where we're coming up in the in the witchcraft timeline of the UK.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

So this is Witchcraft part two, ever waited part two, four weeks in in in space of part two. Yes. But here we are, witchcraft part two. And this will be one of the freshest, hottest ones off the press. Because it's I assume it we're doing it tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

We are I'm gonna have to mix this when I get home this afternoon. Tomorrow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Uh Thursday.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Thursday, so I'm gonna have to mix this this afternoon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Damn.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

But luckily your mum is not here. She is uh uh Oxford, I think. Doing something Lucky for us all. Yeah, doing something like in Oxford, but she's back back from.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

What exactly is she doing in Oxford or is it Trade Secrets?

SPEAKER_03 3:16

She did tell me, but lovely. Yeah, yeah. Got it. Yeah, it's not get you in trouble. I think she well, I think she's doing lifeguarding or something.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

It's either lifeguarding or or training of lifeguarding or lifeguarding. That there is no other Well, she might just be away on a jolly. I don't know. She did tell me. Oxford does seem like a strange place to have a jolly. No offence to Oxford, I'm just it seems like an odd place to have a jolly. That's all. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. So Lester Crowley.

Victorian Obsession With The Occult

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Lester Crowley. No, it's not Lester, it's Alistair. So before we go into Alistair Crowley, it says Lester. Yeah, I I deleted the A off by accident. But you want you want to go back a little bit on the script, Hannah?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

We're at the Victorian stage.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

So explain a little bit about what was happening in the Victorian era.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Because we've actually mentioned this before, like with ghost stories, because the Victorians were quite obsessed with the occult.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

So this is where they're where all of our ghost stories come from, is that we say.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Because you know, like when when you like we said when you go to Halton Towers, like the girl ghosts or the young kids or a ghost always tend to be in Victorian clothes, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 4:19

That is true. The white lady and all that jazz they do tend to be in older clothes. Why is there no modern like 90s rapper?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

No, there isn't like that would be so funny. Like, diggity dog. I'm kind of haunt you, bitch. Diggity dog.

unknown 4:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

That is quite possibly the whitest thing I've ever done. Yeah, that really is. Um but yeah, I just I just why why is there no modern ghost? Riddle me this.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

So for those of you who don't know, the Victorian era was like the 1800s to the early 1900s. Yeah, that's that's kind of that's kind of the the time where time.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Generally, that's where the Victorian period is uh is is said to have occurred.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Yeah, and the reason why was because the Victorians actually really, really loved the occult. They just loved it. They absolutely loved it, and lots of it was because of the reaction to industrialization, there was a growth of archaeology and an interest in ancient paganism at the time as well, kind of like a resurgence of ancient paganism.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Resurgence, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

But this is the key point is that there was an increased liter l uh literacy and publishing. So all the stories started coming out.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Uh the creative peep started.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

The creative peeps started writing about the occult. So we're talking like H.P. Lovecraft, Edgar Allan Poe, all those guys.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Mary Shelley.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Mary Shelley, yeah, indeed, Bram Stoker. Yes. Have you seen the New Dracula film actually?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

No, I have not. It's really good. Is it? Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah, it is really good. That shot.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Pretty good. And then, of course, we had a lot of mediums around then claiming to communicate with the dead.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Mediums.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Seances in middle class homes.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Um, yes, and and yeah, as I wrote there, Lovecraft and Edgar Allan Post, all those kind of uh those kind of stories. In fact, you see Ouija boards as well. I think that's where Ouija boards started coming into play.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

I kind of I kind of want a Ouija board.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Have you never done one?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

No, I want to display it on my wall in my office.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

I just think it's it's cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

I love Ouija boards. They look awesome.

Seances, Ouija Boards And Media

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Uh they look cool, don't they? Yeah. I yeah, I m there's just something about them.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

And the I mean, but even like the font of how their words are written, and that's all very Victorian.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Whoever was like the marketing, like well, they wouldn't have had a marketing, but like the person that decided on the font and how it was looked, and like they were just like, Yeah, this is like a witch's wet dream.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Exactly, exactly. But in uh in 1887 in London, there was a magical order founded, and it was called the Golden Dawn.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

The Golden Dawn.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

And this is where Crowley comes into it. Alistair Crowley, not Lester, Alistair Crowley, and a poet by the name of W. B. Yeats as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, we know Yeats.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah, Yeats. Uh so the Golden Dawn was a highly influential magical order, and it kind of focused on ceremonial magic, angels, astral work.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Um, and it's I love how you missed a word there.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

What what Kabbalah?

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Kabbalah. Kabbalah. Because I wanted to go. And I I had that joke prepared, and then you didn't say it, so I felt like I needed to address it, but it's okay, there it's gone.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Thanks, Hannah. Um and oh, do you know what? I need I need to get my eyes tested.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

What? Because of the witches taking your vision.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Yeah, no, I can't I'm I'm gonna push that further and further away so that I can read it.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Are you wearing contacts today?

Enter The Golden Dawn

SPEAKER_03 7:42

I am wearing contacts, but I need to very when I don't have my contacts in, right? I can read like really close up, but when I put my contact lenses in, I can because I've I'm short-sighted, I then go long-sighted.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

You need berifocal. I need very focal contact lenses.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Beer glasses. Oh no. I went with berry. Sorry, I was my pardon's really rubbish. Apologies. Strawberry vision. Rose tinted glass Rose tinted glasses. I know, rose rose-coloured boy. Rose coloured boy. What's that? Um all that noise about the world you want to see.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Blah black-eyed boy popping my head by Texas. Uh Paramo. Right, you're just making grunting noises now.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

What's what is that?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Uh uh uh I can't think how it goes. Um God, how's it going?

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Shall we move on?

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Yeah. Oh sorry, I can't think of the song, but it's most kind of followed by Paramour.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Oh, right, okay. Um, but it was very influenced by Wicca. The Golden Dorm was. They took a lot of the um the Wiccan Yeah, they took a lot of the Wiccan beliefs and kind of put it into the into the Golden Dorm. So Crowley himself, gonna talk a little bit about Crowley.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Sup Crowley.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Crowley, he's probably the most famous kind of occultist in the whole of the UK.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Are you saying occult? Like yeah, occult, but occult.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Because the occult occult. Occult occultist. He was a ceremonial magician, he was a writer, he was a mystic, and he was a mountaineer.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Of all the things on his CV.

unknown 9:25

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I'm a magician, I'm a writer, I'm a mystic, and I also climb mountains. Indeed. Yeah, you know, yeah, try to get he's at one with nature. He's at one with nature, indeed. Indeed.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Uh he was born on the 12th of October, 1875, in Lemmington Spa.

Alistair Crowley’s Early Life

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Woo, go Libras.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Yeah, and he grew up in a very, very strict Plymouth Brethren Christian household. So he was brought up as a very strict Christian. His father was actually a travelling preacher.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

And like most who could ever reach me was a son of a preacher, man.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Exactly. And like most people who are brought up within that kind of strict kind of church Christian belief, they rebel.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Like, not for me, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

They rebel.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

I'm finding my own way. So exactly that's what he did. Crowley.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Wow, he went to Trinity College.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

He did go to Trinity College in Cambridge. And he in uh developed interest in chess, poetry, and mountaineering. That's where the city was. Ah, that's where the mountaineering came on.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

So they were he was like, I am going to scale the college roof.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, yeah. I know they did that because I went on a tour in Cambridge recently on the on the River Cam punting.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

By recently, I mean last two years ago. Um I've done an axe. For a Hindu. And um and yeah, they told me that um yeah, people do silly stunts and climb the roofs.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

They do, they do indeed. Hilarious. I heard that story while I was punting as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Maybe we had the same tool, guys. Maybe we did. Maybe they just have the same script.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

Yeah, most likely. Yeah, most likely, yeah. Uh so when he was at Cambridge, he that's when he started exploring his sexuality, looked into atheism and mysticism, and basically rejected.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

He basically found himself.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

He basically found himself. He was he was like, screw Christianity.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Do we like this guy? We well Is there some questionable things in his history?

SPEAKER_03 11:08

He did do some questionable things, yeah. Oh, good lord. So in 1898, he joined the Hermatic Order of the Golden Dawn, which at the time was the most advanced magical society in Damn.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

And he trained in ritual magic, kabbala. Kalalal um alchemy and tarot.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Oh, we love a bit tarot.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

I should have brought my tarot cards today, shouldn't I? You should have done it. You should have put them on the desk.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

I have some tarot cards.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

You've got have you got the rider? Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I have the witchy.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

The witchy ones.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Have you? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Oh what they I've got the the the actual main.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

The main Yeah, you have the the OG.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

The OG tarot ones.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, I have the pretty version.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

They're a good set though.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Yeah. Are they I've never seen yours.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

They're purple.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Yeah, you've seen, yeah. You can get them after this. Yeah. Last time I had my tarot cards out was when we did the uh when we did D D and that's how I did the thingy. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, because I've got some runes as well that I made myself.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yes, I remember you making them runes.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Yeah. Uh so the basically he did actually clash with other members in the Golden Dawn, such as WB8s. They didn't get on. Oh. Yeah, they didn't get on. And he basically went into real deep independent magical exploration. He really looked into it and it kind of enveloped his his whole life. Now, in 1904, he wrote a book called The Book of the Law, which was a main major turning point within the Golden Door. And during a crit uh a crypt during a trip to Cairo, Cla Crowley claimed to receive a spiritual revelation from a non-human entity named Iwas.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

He had a religious experience.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

He had a religious experience.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Interesting. Someone that's rejected religion.

Thelema And The Book Of The Law

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Yeah. Yes, and the text revealed to him during this spiritual revolution revelation was the book of the law, or Libra Alvel Legis is Latin. And the central doctrine of the text is basically do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will. And it basically that philosophy became the foundation of Thelma or Thelema, which is Crowley's spiritual and magical system as what he created.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Can we break that down? Do what thou wilt shall basically do what you want. The whole of the law.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Do what you want.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Do what you want, but love is the law.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

As in are we talking romantic love? Are we talking about it?

SPEAKER_03 13:45

Just love love in general.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

But then it says love under will, so will actually beats love.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

It does. So when we come onto what the in a little while it's there there is a kind of phrase within Wicca, which kinda is quite similar.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Which is the foundation of what the Wicca religion is. And out of all of the religions, that I think is the is the best way to live.

unknown 14:10

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

I'll come onto it in a little while.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

I can't believe you have just you have just pro'ed an a a religion.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

I have prored a religion. Yeah. Yes. But no, this just this one phrase. One phrase. Which is the the concept of what Wicca actually is. So Thelema is not Wicca, but it is heavily influenced by Wicca. Okay. Of what Crowley was doing. So basically the core concepts are that every person has a true will, which is their sole purpose. So everyone has a purpose. Ethical focus shifts from avoiding harm to fulfilling one's true will. So basically, you need to be fulfilling your true purpose. And ritual magic is used to align the self with that purpose.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

So they're the core concepts. So Crowley wrote loads of stuff. He wrote magic in theory and practice. He wrote the Book of Thoth, which is the Tara System and Symbolism, 777, which is the magical correspondence and ritual structure.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Oh yeah, angel numbers.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah, exactly. And the vision and the voice, which is the magic explorations. So yeah, so that's uh he did quite a lot within the realms of Thelmia.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Thalema.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Thelema, yes. And uh that was around sort of the at there was an abbey which was founded in 1920 and lasted three years. And he created this kind of communal magical retreat in Sicily where members practiced ritual, meditation, yoga, and drug experimentation. And it became out it became absolutely infamous. And the reason was was because newspapers went there and said, Well, everyone's like everyone's naked and grey naked and doing the sex, worshipping the sun, yeah. Well, and doing the sex, and there was some animal sacrifice. It was there was a lot of drug use, and of course, like we did the cults episode, it was very, very cult-like. Essentially, it was a cult. Ah. It was a cult.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Um Crowley.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Yeah, but then in 1923. We liked you. Yeah, we did. When in 1923, Mussolini chucked Crowley out. Mussolini chucked Crowley out of Italy because he was too extreme. Mussolini. Okay. Well, to be fair, somebody somebody died there actually at the retreat, and Mussolini was like, right, you lot, out. To be fair. Yeah, yeah, someone died, and it was out. And he was known, that was when um Crowley was then known as the world's wickedest man.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

It would be lovely to be known as the as the world's wickedest something.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Yeah, so that is, yeah. He at the time he explored bisexuality when it was illegal in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

He did a lot of psychedelics and narcotics such as opium, mesculine, heroin. Um he did a thing-I've never heard of masculine.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

What's masculine?

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Uh it's it's mentioned in The Matrix. You know when the when Neo goes to the uh goes to the um bar at the beginning and meets Trinity for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Is it an opioid?

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Or he says follow the white rabbit. No, it's a psychedelic, I think. I think it's a psychedelic, I'm not 100% sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Because heroin and obviously opium is opiates.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Yeah, yeah. I think I think masculine is a psychedelic.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Oh, okay.

Abbey Of Thelema: Infamy And Fallout

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Yeah. But then he did a lot of yoga and meditation techniques, which was borrowed from Buddhism and Hinduism as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

So there was that side of things.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Um I'm down with that side. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

I mean, I said before. He was not Wiccan. He did not, he was not a witch. He was not Wiccan, he made that very, very clear. But his ideas kind of did feed into Wicca.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Complimented.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Yeah, because there was another guy called Gerald Gardner.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Who was Do we like him? We do like him as well. Yeah, he's cool. Um, and so Gardner's was the bear with me just scrolling down. But yeah, in later years, Crowley actually did struggle with health, addiction, and of course his own. Oh no shit. Yeah. But he died age 72 in 1947 in Hastings.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Oh, we're not even in your age.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Died on the 1st of December 1947. In Hastings. Oh, 800 double 1966.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

But he was very influential about mod with with regard to modern day witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Have you ever been to Hastings? Uh no. Somewhere I've been that you haven't. Oh yeah, I've never been to Hastings. No.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Not as many, many places that his influence is still today in modern witchcraft and Wicca, the occult orders that still go on, uh Chaos Magic, uh tarot systems. But even rock music counterculture, like Led Zeppelin, Bowie, Aussie.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

There's stuff going on. Satanic stuff with Crowley in there. And Crowley is even on the Sgt. Pepper's album cover.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

The Beatle Sgt. Pepper album cover. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Because he was he was seen to be a counterculturist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

He was very counterculture. So he was, I mean, you could to summarise up his life, he was he was a visionary, he was very provocative, incredibly provocative.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Provocator!

SPEAKER_03 19:10

And he did shape the modern Western magical landscape through what he did with the Golden Dawn, with Thelema, with ritual magic philosophy. And yeah, just a very, very, very controversial kind of person.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Oh damn.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Yeah. But then we move on to the 1930s to the 1950s.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Still not in your era.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Still not in my era. I'm still not even thought of just yet.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Still not alive.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

No, no. But this guy, Gerald Gardner. So he was born 1884.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Do you know what your mum's birth year is? This might be random, but I promise it's my mum. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Fifty something, nineteen fifty something. She had me when she was twenty, so nineteen fifty five.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

So there's the same difference between you and your mum, is the same difference between me and you?

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Damn. Yeah. It's like history repeating itself.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Exactly.

unknown 20:00

Yeah. Old aim.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

But Britain, Britain, where we live, Britain.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Is known as the birthplace of modern day Wicca.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Oh, damn, we have something to our name. Yeah. Something good.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Gerald Gardner. He'll know him. Yes, 1884 to 1964. He was a retired civil surgeon.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Damn, he lived for a long time. He lived 80 years.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

He did. He was a folklorist, a nudist, and he was an occult enthusiast.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Then why are they always nudists?

Crowley’s Legacy In Culture

SPEAKER_03 20:33

He's just like flopping around, walking around.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Oh my gosh, can I tell you a story?

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Oh, go on, go on.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

My last shoot with um Amy is a friend of mine, but a photographer, and she was also in one of your music videos.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

We went to um oh was it Holcombe? Yeah, I think that's called Holmes.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah, where they've got the nude column. The nudist beach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

And suddenly I just saw this man with his dong out. And I was like walking along this beach. And I was like, I clocked Amy and Amy clocked me and we were like, okay, is this a creepy situation? Or was it a nudis beach? Wait, wait, no, I didn't know that at the time. As I kept walking, I was like, well, that was weird. Like that five minutes, ten minutes had passed, maybe. Yeah. We saw another one. We were like, okay. Immediately, like, was like, oh, take a de a deep breath. Because we were like, okay, we just thought some creep was coming towards us with a schlong out. And then remember we see another guy with a schlong out. But why are they all of a certain age? Can I say that? Like they're very um. I'm gonna say single. Yeah, I feel like they that's it, isn't it? They're like 60, 70 up. Yeah. There was no women on this beach. It was all schlong. And I was just like, it was like the clocking of each other. Like we clocked and we were like, we were like, it at first you genuinely, like two women just together with a load of bags and stuff. You think it's some sort of creep.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Yeah.

Gerald Gardner And Modern Wicca

SPEAKER_01 21:53

And we were like, like trying not to look, that you feel like you have to look. Like it's just it's that weird moment. So I imagine if someone I I find that, you know, if you see a lady, and this is men and women, if you see a lady with her, with with with a with a desirable cleavage, shall we say, in in a bar, you can't not look. Like I try and look at their face when I talk, but my eyes do drift. Like, I'm I'm happy to admit that. And this was the exact same thing, but like a lot lower down. So it was a lot more obvious that my eyes were like that. Thank God I was wearing sunglasses. But yeah, anyway, just so much slung that day, it was unreal.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Hang on a minute. How long ago was this?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

This was this must have been last it was cold. I was gonna say because it's it was like last September or something, last October.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Yeah, that's cold.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

That was cold. Yeah. And they everything was out, I can assure you. Brilliant. But yeah, it's that it's that moment of oh my gosh, is this a creep coming towards us? And then when you see another one, you're like, oh, oh no, this is cool. Like, we're in the nuder speech section. That's fine. Because obviously cameras aren't allowed as well for obvious reasons.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

For obvious reasons, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

But she was only taking pictures of me and no schlongs, I can confirm. Um, and I didn't have my schlong out, just so you're aware.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

No schlongs are so much stuff now, but I'm not going to. No, I am your daughter, so uh it's PG. Yeah. Oh dear God.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Um I hope I can say schlong because I feel like so much I don't want to believe it out.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Yeah, schlong's fine.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Should we go back to Gerald Gardner? Yeah, with his schlong out in the new forest. Oh, yeah. Because he was, he claimed that he was initiated into a surviving witch coven in the new forest around 1939.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

And they believe the current coven did actually exist and had been a mixture of folk magic, Masonic rituals, masons, uh ceremonial magic, and early neo-pagan ideas. So, this is what I was saying when I said a little while ago about how one of the the wic and read it's called. I like this. Out of all the religions, I actually think this is as a core principle is one of the best ones. So the Wiccan Reed says, and it harm none, do what you will.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

As an if it doesn't, if it doesn't hurt anyone, do what you want.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Oh damn. Yeah. I live my life by that.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

That is the core principle of Wicca.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah. If you're not doing any ha uh do anyone, have fun.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Have fun, do what you want. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, do what you want.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

I really wish that this was a core belief of everyone. Yeah. Because how easy would this world be when it comes to LGBT, like uh anything of any nature that's like even remotely odd or strange or queer or whatever you want to call it. That's r like out of that box of the norm, which I don't think I hate using the word normal, but out of that, you know, the check box of this is a human woman and this is a human man.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah. If it ain't causing anyone any problems.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

That is essentially what it is. That's what Wicca is. Do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

I want to become Wiccan. How do I become Wiccan?

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Well, you can then.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I'm not getting my schlong out, but I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

I've got a load of I've got a load of books upstairs. Not here, obviously, but at home up in the loft.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

They're in my loft?

SPEAKER_03 25:10

I've got Wiccan of you.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Magic to them here.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

I've got loads of books on Wicca, Voodoo, like all the tarot cards and the runes and all of that. I did a lot of.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

I feel like you you you rolled for deception then.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

No, generally have. I'm actually no, I generally have. Okay. I've got lo I've got loads of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

How does one become Wiccan? Do you go to a like is there a Wiccan like building?

SPEAKER_03 25:30

You could just be Wiccan now.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

I don't want to say a church, but like just get some books and have a read. I've got I've got tarot. Yeah. If I should. Just have some books and have a read. I just get a tarot book.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Anyway. But some of the key Wiccan beliefs are um there is the dual deity system. You've got the goddess and the horned god.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Oh, dual deity.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Yeah. There are eight sabbaths, which is the wheel of the year drawn from the Celtic and folklore festivals. There is, in some traditions, there is the ritual nudity. So it's being called sky clad.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Sky clad. Skyclad.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

If you want your schlong out.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Clad.

The Wiccan Rede Explained

SPEAKER_03 26:02

But yeah. So uh yeah, in in essence, in actual kind of when you when you translate the Wick and Read properly, it says you may act as you wish as long as your actions cause no harm.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah. That's it. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

It is not also, it's not a rule of obedience, like a commandment, but rather just a guide for ethical baby behaviour.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Suggestion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

It it doesn't. It encourages personal responsibility, awareness of consequences. Free will. And respect for all life. And that's physical, emotional, spiritual, and ecological.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

And animal?

SPEAKER_03 26:39

And animal. The whole lot.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Nice. It's just basically I guess ecological comes down to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

So in the in 18 in 1951. Remember I said in the previous episode there was the Witchcraft Act?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Uh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Well that got it. Definitely remember that.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Yeah, in 1951. And that's when Gerald Gardiner began publicly writing about Wicca. So really have a little read of some of his stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Have a little read. Um so he's I mean he wrote in 1950.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

As long as he's not dull and drivel. I don't like a dull man.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

The book that I've got is definitely not dull.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

It's not. It's not dull. So he but he wrote a book called Witchcraft Today in 1954 and the meaning of witchcraft in 1959, and he published those books, and that kind of opened kind of opened the door for modern day Wicca. Yeah, and then in the 1960s, there was the Alexandrian Wicca. Your mama, welcome to the 60s. Yeah, the swinging 60s, the hippie culture. Again, that culture kind of coming back in. That's what it was. And Alex and Maxine Alex and Maxine Sanders uh created the Alexandrian Wicca in the 1960s in London, Manchester. And that was that's much more ceremonial, structured, and theatrical than what Gardner's Wicker was.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Right. I'm gonna say something slightly mildly controversial now. It annoys me when anything is called Alexandrian because everywhere in Greece, at like we're talking ancient Greece, everywhere was called Alexandria.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Everywhere. So there was like a hint to this and a hint to that, a hint to that. Now in modern day, you look at any well, well, Russia don't participate in in ice skating anymore or Olympics as such as Russia because of everything going on. Um, but you have like the the Republic of people of Russia instead. I can't remember what they're called, but they're not Russians anymore. They're all called Alexandria as well, right? So why are we still calling things Alexandria? We're gonna get confused, and it annoys me because there's like a police called Alexandria, there's this, there's that, there's that. And stop calling things Alexandria. I'm just putting it out there. It's a lovely, it's a beautiful name, it's very Greek, it's very this. But stop calling things Alexandria because everything is called Alexandria. And it really annoys me.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Are you done?

SPEAKER_01 28:56

I'm o I'm done. Are you sure? Are you okay? I just I know it's controversial, but how much hot chocolate have you had? That is it.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

It's normally me going on the rants.

Rituals, Sabbats And Sky Clad

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah, it just annoys me. It just annoys me that like like everything. If you read, I'm really into Greek mythology as well, and I read a lot of the stuff. And when anyone bases a character or anything on that, and I love I love it when I love it when authors base a lot of stuff on Greek mythology because it's something I really enjoy reading and I like people's modern take on it. Please stop calling your characters Alexandria because I will, I, I, I, I just cringe every time. I I honestly I know she was Trojan horse lady. I know, I know, I do not need to be reminded. Alexandria is no longer a place in my mind, it is out of the way. Sorry if you're called Alexandria. I don't hate your name. It's just your parents I hate.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

It's not your fault, but your parents did it.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

That was a very Freudian response. It's your parents.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

It wasn't tell me about your mother. Tell me about your mother.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Sorry for going off about the name Alexandria. I only know one that in my life.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

I don't know any Alexis, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

We do. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

We do. We do. We do, we do, yeah, yeah, we do. I didn't think about I don't think I know any others. No, I don't. No, I don't know any others, no.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

But my point still stands.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Okay. Shall we go on to Witchcrafter today? Yeah, I'd love to be kind of closing the episode off.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Before I get banished by the Wiccans.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yeah. Uh so I completely lost my track of the page. I'm very off killer. You've just gone on one about the one name Alex. So in the UK today, modern paganism and Wicca is actually a recognised religion now. It is recognised.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Oh, damn.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Yeah. And you have pagan chaplains in prisons. You can have legal pagan weddings. In fact, your wedding. I know it was a Christian, but it was very the the the imagery of it and what the what you were wearing and that was was almost very pagan.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

We uh why did I say it like that?

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

We went for a uh the what is known in the UK as a non-religious ceremony, it's a civil uh ceremony as opposed to a religious ceremony. I don't know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, Christian, Christian.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

It's not already Christian though, it's just it's just in in when you go to like book your wedding, it's this or that. There's there's only two options. Um well I'm sure there are other options in in ev in other cultures, but yeah. I yeah. When I went to the registry office, they were like, hi, are you having this or this? And I was like, this one. Um and that's so that we didn't have anything too religious-y in our ceremony. I don't think God was mentioned in it, and we also chose you can choose scripts of what you want your wedding to sound like, what it wants to do. We chose the shortest one. We're just like this one, because it's short.

SPEAKER_03 31:41

And then they were like- You do you, you are.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Pretty much, yeah, yeah, pretty much. And then they were like, Oh, and then you choose a reading. And we were looking at all the readings, and there's they put them into categories like this one's a romantic reading, this one's about love, this one's about family, and this one's like there was just a section that said comedy, and we were like, ha and then it looked in the comedy, and then we had uh a little comedy. I can't remember what the the reading was, but um, but yeah, yeah, we we had a non-religious ceremony because we got married in a golf, golf, what they called?

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Basically, it was a golf club house. Golf club, golf club, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Club is the one I was looking for. Yeah, we got married at a golf club.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

In fact, you know, I've been to so many weddings there, my brother got married there as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

I I did ask Auntie Hillary before before we got married, I was like, oh, is it okay to get married here? Okay, and how did you find everything? She was like, Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Um so yeah, so in today, yeah, is it is officially recognised. Uh there are recognised religious communities as well for with Garden Wicca, and you they still do a lot of tarot reading, herbalism and hedge witchcraft, which goes back to the early days with like the mistletoe, the mug war, and all of that. Oh yeah, moon moon rituals, uh celebrating the stab sabbaths, um, hearth magic, and then of course they have the rituals of the ancient sites, such as Stonehenge, oh yeah, Glastonbury Tour, and Avery. Yeah. And we do still have we do still have some regional traditions.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

We do Cornish Witchcraft. Cornish Witchcraft.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Yeah, the Pixies. There is something quite magical about Cornwall.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

There is something spiritual about Cornwall.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

I can't place it, but it's just it's got that air of mysticism about it.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

St. Nectane's Glen particularly made me feel d uh uh there was there was some even as a child it felt like it was Can I say the word magical? I don't want to be Yeah yeah yeah, but it felt there is a a whimsical, yeah, natural magical feel to it. I can I can't I can't explain it. It's just a very spiritual place.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

It is, it's it's quite mystical, and then you've got the clouties everywhere and the little Cornish pixies.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yeah, the Cornish pixies.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

I think I mean obviously I think a lot of it's to do with the Arthur uh you know the Arthur legend as well. Yeah and Merlin and Morgana Cafe and Tim Tadgel, yeah, and all of that. But there is just something that I when you go to Cornwall and certain apps, certain areas of Cornwall, there's no it's got a feeling.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

It does have a feeling. It does have a feeling.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Very, very mystical place.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, very mystical.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Um then, of course, we do have the Scottish folk magic at the moment as well, so there's still a lot of folk magic up in Scotland, which is again going back to with the fairies.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Oh, yeah, all of that.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

And in Wales, they have folk healing and spirit traditions in Wales, and then of course, where we are La Norfolk. The Norfolk and East Anglia, we still have the cunning folk and the cunning craft.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

We do, yes.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

So, modern British pagan movements, we do have the um Joe Gardener and the um the other A name, which I won't mention in case you go off on one again. Wicker. There are some druids, but obviously slightly different to how druid was back then because we don't know that much.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

So not druid, as in using odd the druids you're looking for, druid.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

What? That's a Jedi Egypt.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Oh, are they different? I thought the druids were like them like What Jedi? The little like the little sand people.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

No, that's Jawas.

Sites, Regions And Folk Magic

SPEAKER_01 35:16

What deeny! Are they not druids? No. Jawas I don't I don't watch Star Wars. I thought they were like Druid. What's a druid then?

SPEAKER_03 35:32

A druid is like an ancient the druids were in Britain's years and years ago. We started the whole like started off talking about the druids in this episode not this episode, but the previous one.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I I honestly thought they were a sci-fi thing.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

No.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

I thought the druids were just like a race of Star Wars people.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Are you alright?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

I don't know. I am I'm not feeling too hot to be honest. I felt better than I did last time I recorded, but I'm still not great.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

Um then we've got the eclectic and solitary witchcraft as well, which I think probably that's be the sort of thing that you might want to start looking into.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah, and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

The Wiccans.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Yeah, the Wiccans. And the feminist witchcraft communities.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah, I mean, I'm all for that.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Um, we need all the help we can get.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Mystical or not.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

Yeah. Oh. So you can we can pretty much say that witchcraft in Britain evolved from like the druids. Martini. Um, and the Celtic shamanism to folk medicine. Basically, throughout it it's evolved throughout time because of persecution and then revival, persecution, revival, and it is one of the most significant uh movements in the 20th century.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

I need to ask about this druid. I need to ask about this druid thing one more time.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

What are they called in June?

SPEAKER_03 36:49

In June?

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah, what what are like the sand people called?

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Oh my god, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Are they called druids?

SPEAKER_03 36:55

No, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

They've got the blue eyes, haven't they? Because of the spice in the air.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

Yeah. Yeah. Uh I can't remember. Aphorum Have at Google. Google it. Okay. Google it.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Carry on closing the episode off.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

I will close the episode off. So basically, the re- this is one of the reasons why I chose Britain and Witchcraft, because it's been so influential in Britain, and it has, you know, I think Britain is the one who actually created modern day Wicca, but based on a lot of Norse Celtic traditions.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

They're called Fremen?

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Fremen, of course they are. Freeman. Freeman Fremen. Freeman. Play on the word Freeman.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

So uh what we've learned from this uh episode part one and part two is that I am gonna become Wiccan, I feel.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

You think?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yeah. Shall I go get the uh tarot?

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Well have a little just look into it. I'm gonna look into it. Just have a little look into it.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

I'm gonna look into it. Yeah. I wouldn't call myself a religious person, but I I'm feeling it.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Yeah. I I did. I mean, like I looked into I I read loads of stuff about it. And you know, the more although I never because you know I dn don't like religions in general, but out of all of them If you're gonna pick one. If you're gonna pick one, I'd pick this one.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

You'd pick Wiccan.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Yeah. Because basically, because of that principle.

Druid Myths, Memes And Clarifications

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know. If you're not doing any harm, go to town.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Yeah, if you're not hurting it yourself or anyone else, do what you want. The world is your oyster.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Seems seems legit.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

It's such a simple concept. Very simple.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Very simple.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Just being ethical.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Well, if you enjoyed this episode, part two of Witchcraft, um, we have plenty more in Z Bank. And if you are up to date with everything, we've got more to come.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Um we have tune in next week to hear Hannah's names.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

My names.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

You know, let's just pick another name which you're gonna pop out.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I really don't like the name. What was it the other day I heard?

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Careful because there will be people called this name.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Oh, what was it? It was something that I was like, that is just a stupid name.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

It will come to me. It wasn't Chlamydia, was it?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

It wasn't Chlamydia, that's a funny story. Although shit name as well, but yeah. Yeah. Anyway, um, yes, if you've enjoyed the episode, we've got plenty more in the bank, or we've got plenty more to come. So uh the only thing left to say is cute the outro. Thanks for joining us on bonus dad, bonus daughter. Don't forget to follow us on all our socials and share the podcast with someone who'd love it. We are available on all streaming platforms. See you next time. Bye-bye.